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How I became a Therapist with Sheila Maitland · Finding New Waters

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The truth is, I learned about it by making a lot of mistakes and
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so often, even in the mistake, something profound has happened.
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Mmm. And for me, that helps me.
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I really have a faith that is guiding me, that's beyond what I
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could ever come up with. Thank God.
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Alright well, thank you for joining us.
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You on this episode of guiding new Waters.
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We're excited to have you. I'm excited to be here.
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Thank you. And thank you, Justin for being
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here. Absolutely, my pleasure.
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All right, good. Well, today we want to talk
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about your career in Psychotherapy sheet, like so can
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you tell us a little bit about how you got started in deciding
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to even be a therapist? Sure, it's a great story.
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I was fortunate to get into recovery as a 24 year old and
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shortly after that. I was in some group therapy as a
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client and I was in sales at the time and one of the group
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members, suggested I go to on-site workshops, which is a,
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an amazing place at the time. It was in the Black Hills of
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South Dakota and it was an experiential Workshop, that was
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so profound Soundly healing for me that I came home and within
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six weeks got into grad school because I wanted to do what they
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were doing. That's awesome.
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Yeah well yeah. And now you are leading the
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relationship Enrichment Center which is a I would say it's like
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a destination referrals. I mean I know other people are
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traveling. Yeah from all across the country
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if not internationally. To show the airport and then
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staying in Matthews North Carolina to work with your
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group. I mean, that's it.
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That's a tremendous point. A, to point B Journey, can you
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tell us how you went from graduate school and then to
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starting our own practice. Yeah.
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And starting the RDC. Thank you.
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Well. on-site workshops has been a huge part of that for me
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because the work combined with recovery is what has really
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opened the doors and Being able to try and apply recovery to all
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the things that I do and including my work has been so
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it's made it clear what they say in recovery is if you're not
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sure pause now. It's not like I've done that
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perfectly but I always knew because of my experience that I
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wanted. do experiential therapy and a lot of group therapy and
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so in my 30s and in the years that I was raising a family, I
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had the distinct privilege of working at on-site every few
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weeks and months and It's helped me meet people from all over the
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world. This experiential therapy is
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kind of a niche and there's a fabulous group of people that
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are really drawn to working this way.
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And it has helped me expand conceptually a systems approach.
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Tim's approach to working family systems is how I work with
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families. And so using that concept to
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drive how I'm trying to work with clients employees, like
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trying to use the same principle, each part of the
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system impacts the whole and Yeah, that has just been amazing
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to then grow in. Really just in the last few
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years into a group practice and yeah.
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Yeah so that the expressional piece is so important for us to
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get about. Yeah.
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And I hate to drop this huge philosophical question on you.
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But yes. Can you tell us what is
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experiential therapy wave a? So experiential therapy is an
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overarching umbrella to all the action based therapies and it's
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eclectic. The way I've been trained, it
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probably draws most heavily from psychodrama, but it also draws
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from EMDR, it draws from somatic experiencing and it.
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Gives the experiential clinician many, many options to draw from.
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I can use all the different. Trainings and be able to create
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something that is action-based. Knowing some of the fundamentals
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to how to do it, effectively how to do it safely and how to do
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it. Honorably.
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Yeah, there's what are some times where experiential therapy
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is just a great mentality. Well I would say always because
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even when I try something experiential to where it doesn't
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go well or the client doesn't want to do it, it is so
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informing. It is so helpful to me as the
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clinician to see where an enactment might stop, because
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that can be so telling Or if a client says no maybe the most
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powerful thing that happens for their client in that session is
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my ability to honor their no. Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean to make it a little bit
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more like tangible. Yes.
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For for the listeners out there. Yeah.
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Can you tell us about a time where traditional mentality gets
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you to certain point? Yeah, but experiential helps
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you. Yeah, to move Beyond.
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I would love that. So we all have our intake
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questions and we read through them, Before the client comes
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in, we have a little sense for what's going to happen and I can
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begin with that narrative, you know.
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So tell me why you're here. How can I support you today?
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We begin to hear and it's making me think about this client that
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she had filled out all of her paperwork.
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Her mother had passed away of like, while she was in her.
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Tease. So, I had in my mind this whole
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idea of what was going to happen.
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Because I'm the therapist, the expert, the expert, right wrong
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and we could have gone the narrative route and I could have
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guided and asked a lot of questions.
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But instead I took a basket full of scarves.
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And I asked her, how she was feeling and she said that she
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felt isolated and so I asked her to pick a scarf to represent her
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isolation. Ian, she did and then I asked
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her. Where would you put this on you?
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And she took the whole scarf and put it over her head.
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Hmm and I got her permission and said can I interview you?
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Could you roll reverse and become isolation?
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Interesting. Well like isolation itself,
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right? And she said yes.
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And then I said and let's just pretend her name is Susie.
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Mhm. So she enrolled as Susie's
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isolation. And my first question to her
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was. So as Susie's isolation, when
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did you meet Susie? Well, and this is what was so
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shocking. Because of course, I thought it
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was going to be when my mom died, but she said I met Susie
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in her crib. Well, interesting.
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Yeah, well, I would have never gotten that if we had gone, the
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narrative route. Yeah.
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And try to get something, which we eventually got there about
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her mom, but she had such a lived experience of isolation
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that I would have missed. Yeah, this is like session.
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One session one, so powerful. 15 minutes of Session.
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One, by the way, and then I'm thinking, well, this is because
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she's in her 20s and she doesn't have all that garbage running
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around in her brain. But yeah, she was phenomenal to
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work with. That's my blanket because it is
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a like most traditional in my experience with my peers and
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traditional therapy, it would be an achievement to get to that
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depth of inside maybe 6-12 months later, right?
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Rightly Well it yeah. They don't all go like that.
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Sure, but that was. It took my breath away.
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It it Supports me relying on the tools rather than what I think I
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know because the client will then share something that I had.
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No, no, no idea was coming. Yeah.
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Yeah, you know, know. I would imagine and I don't know
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right because I as a clinician have not done a lot of I barely
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any experiential therapy. I've seen a lot of it but as a
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practitioner that's just not my snot.
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My modality closest thing would be some Gestalt type stuff.
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Yeah but I can't imagine because I've always thought that you
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know just one of the limits I guess to just kind of
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traditional talk therapy regardless of what modality or
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using is is exactly that that you're kind of you're talking
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and you're limited to like the things that you are aware of are
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of or the insights that you can develop to through, you know,
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cognition, right. Yeah, but I just imagined the
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experiential. The physical piece of it.
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Probably just brings a whole new element to the into the game so
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to speak, right? Absolutely.
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And it also accesses the other side of the brain.
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The part of the brain that does have all the feelings and that
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is where the Three is. And it's so different like, you
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know, to hear the client who can narrate their story of abuse and
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rattle it off. Like they're rattling off their
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Chick-fil-A order. Sure, and then learning some
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techniques to help them tell their story in a different way,
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in some action that connects To that part too.
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Then he'll that part not the narrative part.
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There's no healing required there, but the Locked Away.
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Part the part that might drive them to ward off relationship or
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the part of them that might encourage them to medicate to
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unlock that part. Is what I think experiential
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therapy does so gently and profoundly.
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That's awesome. Yeah, it's very cool.
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I'm excited. I feel like I should do some
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experiential thought we would love that?
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I would do actually. Yeah.
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We should. We should set that up.
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Yeah. Okay.
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There's a book came out a few years ago called the extended
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mind if you for her about this, but what you're talking about
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brings that to my mind. Yeah.
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So the Exciter mind, it's talking about Breaking this
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illusion that the brain is a computer, right?
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The bring us down a computer. Like, we're living beings who
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exist across time, and we have senses and their senses
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influence our thoughts, and our thoughts influence our feelings,
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and our feelings influence our senses, and I would say having
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done experiential therapy and similar to your path.
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Earth is going to on-site and experiencing excite.
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Go drama it, it took me two devs of insight that I didn't even
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imagined were possible. And I think it has a lot of it
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has to do with using my whole body like picking up the scarves
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and all the Fabrics. Right. 7mr satin.
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Some of them are course. Yep.
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If burlaps you have selex you have it all and they smell a
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certain way. They feel a certain way and it
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stirs so much memory and the depth and the engagement just
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goes to all the way like Quickly.
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This is very powerful way of interacting with people, but I
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got to say, I felt so, skeptical.
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Yeah, my biggest fear, like, on the plane too.
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Now, it's that just outside of Nashville in Cumberland Furnace.
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My biggest fear was I would just be so embarrassed right during
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the psychodrama. Like, do people talk to you
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about this anticipatory embarrassment of Seca drama,
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because it seems quite corny or Ain't, you know, like right
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force in some ways. Yeah.
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So how do people get over that? I think.
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Having the permission to stop at any point is one way that you
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don't have to do anything that you don't want to do.
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And so often starting small and a small piece of work.
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Like so that that story that I shared about the woman with the
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scarf and isolation, I mean, the actual time that she had that
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scarf over her head You know, that might have lasted five to
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ten minutes and then the rest of the time we didn't continue with
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the scarf over her head, but it was a snippet.
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It was a vignette. It was a little piece to then,
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make it safer to do more and then the introduction of, you
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know, of course, she came into one of my groups, okay?
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And it was so easy for her to trust me.
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And to trust the process and usually we don't start with a
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giant psychodrama. We start with joining, we start
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with creating safety in the group.
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We start with the so shyama tree or the how is it that we know
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each other and how are we connected and the reduction of
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anxiety? Intention naturally, increases
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our spontaneity and our ability to maybe do something that I
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didn't think I could do 30 minutes ago because I feel
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safer. I don't even know the words to
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Define why. When I saw that 30 minutes ago,
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like hell no, but now I'm doing it.
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Now I'm doing something that is new to me.
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Me, and I'm curious about it and I have permission to stop.
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And yeah, so yeah that's that's what I would say about that.
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Yeah. Interesting.
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I mean, what I hear, what, what what stirs and me when you hear
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you say those words, Sheila is there's freedom in safety.
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But we're a lot of people who are going into these treatment
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environments because they grew up in dangerous environments
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like where you have to feel emotional pain and there's
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nothing you can do about it. Yeah.
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So it's such a big leap to tell people you have the right to be
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safe. Well and I think all of that
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comes online pretty quickly when you go somewhere, whether it's a
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place like on-site whether it's coming here to New Waters when
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you're asked to let go of your medicating.
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And then, when you have to give up that phone, very quickly.
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We begin to reconnect relationally.
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We have to, we have to ask somebody to know where the
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bathroom is. We have to ask somebody.
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What are we doing next? What's the schedule?
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I don't have a phone. I don't know.
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I'm like this awkward human being who may be. our hours ago
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was stacked in all the work that I have to complete or medicating
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and some other way and now, all of a sudden, I'm a lot more raw,
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I'm a lot more vulnerable and I'm forced to connect T', which
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I think makes it. Ideal for people to then
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consider trying new things. There's it's difficult to hide
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for more than 24 or 48 Hours when you have nothing to hide
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behind, right? Right.
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And so being told that you can say no, and that observation is
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participation, Well good. Because in the beginning I might
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just need to watch a few times and judge the hell out of
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everything which is me. Yeah, until I felt safe enough
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to not judge and And to be accepted to take a risk and not
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have everybody. Look at me like I had two heads
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but in fact not their head and like I'm part of the group.
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Yeah, healing absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, I'm out there in full disclosure.
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I actually am a student. Of she was I'm in the
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relationship experiential training process with Sheila at
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the RDC and I would say she'll one thing about you is when you
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talk about safety, T. Yeah, you my impression of you
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is you know what you're doing and you take it very seriously
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and so that takes great skill to convince people or to be a
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credible, exponent of safety. Because I've certainly seen
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others who would say like your safe.
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Don't worry about it, you feel danger, but all this is to say
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that I think Every kind of therapist especially early in
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their career. A question, the back there, -
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how do I develop this skill to be this kind of therapist?
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And I think experiential given that it's so nonlinear.
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It seems like a very daunting skill to develop.
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So I would love to hear a little bit about your history and your
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journey. I've going from this graduate
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student to a trainer. Well, thank you, dr.
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Hong and thank you for the plug. I love that your training group
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that really means a lot. So The truth is, I've learned
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about it by making a lot of mistakes.
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And so often, even in the mistake, something profound has
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happened. Mmm.
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And for me, that helps me, I really I have a faith that is
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guiding me, that's beyond what I could ever come up with.
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Thank God because I can't take the courage nor can I take the
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blame and trying to teach clinicians about that?
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Fine line in being less Central in the room, but my job is to do
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everything in my power to keep it safe.
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Beef. And I think how I've learned the
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most about that is learning what?
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Feels safe for me, and finding safety in my own body and in my
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own recovery. First, and foremost, and then,
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Experiencing when a client is brave enough to say that they
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don't feel safe or they feel as if I've run over them and to not
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tell them they're wrong which is what of course I want to do it.
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You're just misunderstanding it. Your yeah.
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They're feeling what they're feeling and to adopt, even if
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everything in my body is saying, defend its to try to be curious.
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You know, tell me where that happened at.
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What moment I really hear. And I believe, how scared you
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are right now, I'm tracking with you right here and now well
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That, that is what I've seen and learned.
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As to what help somebody come back online or what helps to
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regain the safety. I've also had to own in a group
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when I violated our own guidelines.
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You know, when I've made it unsafe when I haven't managed
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the time, that's a really good example of violating or making a
25:52
Roop, unsafe. And I know lots of therapists
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and I've been one of them who have thought that if I extend my
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session a few minutes that my clients will like me more, but
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I've had a few of them get upset, but because they were
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going somewhere or doing something like as though I could
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pad the deck and get them. Delight.
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I don't know it's such an example of where I can own when
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I have. Done something to make the group
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less safe or I've gotten out of alignment to the guidelines.
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Yeah and that that seems too. Really helped in the course
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correction. I think, another way as a
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therapist that I've learned about that is when in my groups,
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one of the guidelines is, of course, you have the right to
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pass. And When I have heard somebody
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say they want to pass but then I've gone after them big mistake
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and really again, feeling so defensive about why I did it.
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When in fact, I broke the guidelines and what I've learned
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is that when somebody wants to pass, it's really a test.
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It's not only a test for me but it's also a test as to whether
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or not because sometimes a group will encourage nudge put
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pressure and am I going to keep it safe?
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That is another place. I think that then makes a group
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when they see the safety. Feel the safety.
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They drop into more truth-telling.
27:59
Yeah, Mmm. Yeah.
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You know that's interesting and I love that concept and I can,
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you know, I'm just relating here because you know I think as a
28:09
Greener version of myself as a therapist you know there was
28:12
those times where I really valued like the you know we're
28:16
going to push this person to be vulnerable, right?
28:18
Like they don't know what's best for them.
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We're going to push them to be vulnerable.
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Yeah. And I remember exact situations
28:23
where it's like, well maybe we shouldn't have done that, you
28:26
know, right. That really blew up.
28:28
Yeah, absolutely. But we need yeah, but they need
28:31
it, right? We know.
28:32
Yeah. No absolutely yeah.
28:34
But you was saying you have to have those moments yeah over to
28:39
grow. I think right?
28:40
And to know how to you know provide a space where people can
28:43
get the healing that they need in a more effective way, I
28:46
think. Right.
28:47
We gotta get a fall down before we drink run.
28:50
I was I was not expecting that answer.
28:53
She'll when you when you when I ask you how did you get this guy
28:56
thought you're going to say? It was like these experts.
28:59
These trainings. These books but you're saying
29:03
it's mistakes and Faith or spirituality, but I would also
29:09
say, I mean as As someone coming from the medical side, where
29:15
mistakes are not allowed, even though they happen all the time.
29:19
Right now. Let's talk about that another
29:21
day. Okay, okay.
29:25
It's terrifying. Yeah to make a mistake and
29:29
there's immediately. Shame if you're an intern you're
29:33
a resident in training at like a high expectations institution.
29:38
They will ask you things like, what's wrong with you.
29:41
Why did you make this mistake? And it's terrifying and that
29:45
Terror inspires you or motivates you to do it better the next
29:52
time you're there. But it's very fear-based.
29:55
But I think it's a huge impairment our growth right that
29:59
we can't face our mistakes and we can't reflect on them.
30:02
We just have to avoid them. So I mean the the wisdom that
30:06
you bring to this is tremendous but also it talks a lot about
30:10
what you began with which is doing that work for yourself
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right to fight through and be free of that.
30:16
Shame to not be encumbered by it well and to continue yes you
30:22
know like not done. in you, you know, I continue because I I
30:37
believe in the parallel process and I'm also an advocate of yes,
30:44
do lots of trainings and read lots of books.
30:48
And I think it's that vulnerability, and the ownership
30:52
that is Hmm, I can't expect others to be vulnerable and own
31:03
stuff if I'm not also. Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
31:11
Well, this is been such a special time to here and spend
31:17
this conversation with you. Sheila, I hope you'll come back.
31:22
Absolutely, thank you for having me, dr.
31:25
Hong, thank you, Justin. Absolute pleasure having you
31:27
Waters. Yeah, love what you guys are
31:30
doing. Thank you, thank you, Sheila
31:33
like this. Thank you for joining us on this
31:36
episode of got a new Waters.