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Our Pets Health: The emotional toil of Pug Myelopathy, Ragdoll Diagnosises · Paws Between Us - Pet Stories, Welfare and Building A Bond

• 0:00
  Hello Nat, how are you? Yeah, good thanks Sash. I'm good. I've had a few days off work so
• 0:07
  I feel quite chilled. How are you? How's things with you? How have you been? Yeah,
• 0:11
  yeah so, oh lucky you. I'm good as well. I've had a cold for the past few days. It's clearing now
• 0:16
  but apologies in advance if I sound a little bit nasally or a little bit blocked up but
• 0:22
  um I had a cough that's gone so I'm not going to be coughing down the microphone for this
• 0:26
  episode but it's our second one. Yay! Let's hope it goes well. Yeah, hopefully some of our
• 0:34
  listeners have come back for more so um that's that's a good sign if you've had the first one
• 0:39
  and you're listening again really appreciate it. Thanks for coming with us. Yeah, indeed and today
• 0:44
  is the first of March. Yes, you're right. Hasn't it flown by? Yeah, pinch and a punch for the first
• 0:50
  day of the month as they say. Yep, yeah it's gone very quick. I can't believe we're in March already
• 0:54
  but I think February always flies by. Yeah, like it drags and then all of a sudden you're like whoa
• 0:59
  we're in March already. Yeah and then before you know it'll be in summer but we're not going to
• 1:04
  wish our lives away. I'm sure I spoke about this last time but the days are flying by. But yeah,
• 1:09
  what did you get up to at the weekend then? Where were you? We went to, we were out a little bit
• 1:14
  because obviously we've been off so we've been doing lots of fun things but what's been really
• 1:19
  cute and what is relevant for this podcast actually is that when we've come back kitties have been
• 1:24
  magnets to us and we've had them on our laps all evening or sat with us all night while we've been
• 1:29
  watching telly when we've come back in from somewhere. So that's really sweet but I've got
• 1:33
  another day off tomorrow so we're going to go out for the day as well tomorrow so it's been really
• 1:38
  nice bit of change of pace for the last few days. Yeah, wonderful, wonderful. Yeah, it's so nice
• 1:43
  when you come home and your pets are really happy to see you. Obviously miss us a little bit, it's
• 1:48
  really cute. And how's Betty doing? How's she been at last since we spoke? Well, she's all right.
• 1:56
  We went out for dinner last night and she came with us to a lovely dog friendly Italian
• 2:00
  so that was cool but she's currently sleeping away behind me. But it's been a,
• 2:05
  it's been an interesting week. It's been a challenging week, a busy week with Betty.
• 2:10
  The week has been about Betty I would say. We've been very focused on Betty and trying to get some,
• 2:16
  I suppose, not answers about the problems she's experiencing but just trying to make sure that
• 2:23
  she's accessing the treatment she needs because her legs are still a bit up and down so she has
• 2:30
  good and bad days. She's still very much sort of struggling to walk, a little bit wobbly.
• 2:36
  We're doing short walks so definitely not doing the long walks that we were. The vet seems to
• 2:44
  think that she maybe has a combination of arthritis and possibly what they call pug myelopathy
• 2:52
  which is common in pugs. I have seen it in other friends pugs and I have a pug meetup and sometimes
• 2:58
  you see some of the older pugs struggling a little bit with their legs and their mobility. So it's
• 3:04
  seeing it sort of Betty wobbling about a bit, not quite steady on her legs is something I have seen
• 3:11
  before. So it's not like I'm thinking, oh gosh, you know, why Betty? I think it is something that
• 3:17
  some pugs experience. So arthritis possibly because of her age and I think she's maybe
• 3:23
  had a few sort of creaky joints for a while and I think I talked in the last podcast about how
• 3:28
  we're focusing on the Omega-3 and the Yumu tablets. But the pug myelopathy is a bit of a mouthful,
• 3:34
  isn't it? I've been doing some research into it, a bit of googling and it's a spinal cord disorder
• 3:40
  that is seen mostly in pugs caused by a fluid-filled pocket pressing on the spinal cord
• 3:47
  and this pressure that's sort of put on the spine disrupts the messages traveling between the brain
• 3:53
  and the body leading to neurological problems. And yeah, the vet has made a referral for Betty
• 4:00
  to see a neurologist at the Royal Veterinary College which is just outside of London. They
• 4:08
  have a site not too far from here where she's got an appointment in March because they can't
• 4:14
  really diagnose that until she's seen a specialist. But some of the key symptoms that you get with
• 4:21
  pug myelopathy, which I've definitely seen in Betty, is weakness and wobbliness in the back
• 4:27
  legs. She has normal front legs and that, yeah, Betty, she's fine with her front legs but she
• 4:34
  does have lower tail carriage which is another symptom or sign that you see. So, she's got a
• 4:40
  little kind of curly tail that is usually sort of up and very visible and now it's sort of hanging
• 4:46
  low. You do get accidents with urine or your wee, so urine, but your wee or your poo. But
• 4:52
  she's not had any accidents yet, touch wood. She did have one a few weeks ago but nothing since.
• 4:59
  She's definitely struggling to sort of squat down to do a wee and a poo. So, just have to
• 5:04
  watch for that. We're out on a short walk last weekend and she sort of did a poo while she was
• 5:09
  walking that we hadn't spotted and then a woman came along and was like, are you not going to
• 5:13
  pick up that poo? And we hadn't even seen it. So, because, yeah, I go everywhere with my poo bags.
• 5:20
  I'm always picking up poo. I'm not worried about that but we just hadn't spotted it because Betty
• 5:25
  hadn't really sort of made signals that she was about to do it. So, the thing is it's not painful.
• 5:31
  So, in a way, you know, I'm glad that there isn't any pain because I'd hate to think that she
• 5:37
  is in pain. How did you get the diagnosis of this myelopathy, if that's the right way to say it?
• 5:43
  Well, this is the thing. Because I've seen other pugs with it and people have, like their pet
• 5:49
  parents, mum or dad have said or they've got early onset pug myelopathy and you think, oh,
• 5:54
  okay, like it's just quite visible. So, you sort of see it and when I see Betty, I can definitely
• 6:00
  see similarities. But we can't get it diagnosed for sure until she goes to see a neurologist
• 6:06
  and also they want to do an MRI, which I'll sort of come on to because I'm not really sure about
• 6:11
  the MRI. Like she definitely needs to get the right treatment and you don't know what that
• 6:16
  right treatment is until you get the diagnosis. But with the MRI, she has to kind of go under
• 6:23
  and because of her age, yeah. That's okay. Here we go. You said about me,
• 6:29
  like maybe coughing and here you are coughing. I know, I just swallowed my own breath then,
• 6:35
  sorry. No, I was thinking because, yeah, we talked about MRI actually because Weaver had
• 6:40
  one last year and I had the same concerns and interestingly that it affects the spinal cord
• 6:45
  because that's something that Weaver's possibly going through. So, I'll talk about that later
• 6:52
  because you might be able to kind of like help each other a little bit in knowing what's maybe
• 6:57
  to come or what's happening and stuff. Because I've not heard of myelopathy, so it might be,
• 7:01
  I don't know if it's something that might be affecting Weaver, I don't know. But yeah.
• 7:05
  Yeah. I mean, there is another myelopathy which is called degenerative myelopathy and
• 7:12
  both the PUG version and the non-PUG version cause rear leg weakness. But the degenerative
• 7:18
  myelopathy is a genetic disease that progresses to full paralysis and an MRI and genetic testing
• 7:25
  helped tell them apart apparently. Yeah. I think has Weaver had some mini seizures, is that right?
• 7:32
  Yeah. She had these seizures which affected her back legs, but just sort of some of the kind of
• 7:37
  spinal, the effects on spinal and nerves just sort of rings a bell with my journey with Weaver.
• 7:43
  Yeah. Because Betty sometimes has, I don't know if they're mini sort of seizures, but she does
• 7:50
  get floppy and pass out. She's done that for quite a while and the vet also
• 7:58
  thinks that that's neurological, but she's been doing that ever since we had her.
• 8:03
  So, I don't know if it's connected or not and it can be a PUG thing. I just have to sort of make
• 8:11
  sure that I keep an eye on it that she's often passed out when she's kind of done, if she's run
• 8:20
  up the stairs too quickly and she kind of almost, it's like she runs out of breath and then she's
• 8:26
  like, oh, I don't know. But yeah, it sounds like there are some similarities there. But yeah,
• 8:33
  it's not just PUGs I think that get the PUG myelopathy version. You get French Bulldogs,
• 8:38
  English Bulldogs, Boston Terriers can also be affected and there's actually no single standard
• 8:44
  treatment. So, this is the challenge and I'm sure lots of people find this challenge is that
• 8:50
  like one size doesn't fit all. It can take a while to get a diagnosis and work through different,
• 8:58
  I suppose, what's the word? It can take a while to get to the bottom of what's really going on,
• 9:03
  lots of trial and error. Yeah. And they do recommend medical management and that reduces
• 9:09
  inflammation and fluid production. But also, surgery could be an option as it removes the
• 9:15
  constriction and releases the fluid, stabilising the spine, reduces recurrence and recent studies
• 9:21
  apparently suggest that surgery offers better long-term outcomes. She is 11, do we want to
• 9:28
  put her through that? So, yeah, we're just seeing really and the vet did suggest some pain relief
• 9:35
  in case there is an arthritis as well. Like there's that sort of component because it might
• 9:40
  be a combination of the two and did say that some physio would help as well. So, we've had
• 9:46
  some physio at Battersea this week. That's one of the things that we've been doing. Went down to
• 9:54
  Battersea on the Northern Line, hopped on the Northern Line and yeah, saw a physio there.
• 9:59
  And they're really lovely actually. It's got such a nice feel. We're a little bit early and we went
• 10:04
  into the cafe beforehand, which is of course very dog friendly. And I could see lots of people
• 10:09
  turning up for work with their dogs and lots of people kind of saying hello and coming over to
• 10:17
  chat to us and also smiling. And I just felt brilliant. So, I was like, oh, I'm around all
• 10:21
  these wonderful dog and cat people. This is so cool. Like-minded. Like-minded people. So, I was
• 10:27
  like, this is my kind of cafe. I need to come here more often. So, yeah, we did that. Betty
• 10:33
  has had some massage, phasotherapy and exercises. So, I'm kind of learning how to do a bit of doggy
• 10:39
  massage. Quite like the idea of maybe doing some training in that because it's quite therapeutic
• 10:43
  for me as well in terms of massaging. Oh, can you hear? There's Betty in the background. Betty
• 10:48
  started barking. Is that because the shopping's arrived? Yeah, but I think the shopping has
• 10:53
  arrived and has gone. The guy's gone. So, I think we're all good. Okay. So, we can carry on. A bit
• 11:00
  laser, a bit of massage. So, yeah, quite enjoying doing the massage. You've got to do that every day.
• 11:04
  Lazy therapy is not something I've heard about before. So, it can reduce pain, reduce the
• 11:08
  inflammation, which I think is the important part if she has got the Pogailiopathy and encourage
• 11:13
  healing. I love the way there's all this holistic stuff now. There's much more than just going down
• 11:21
  a medical route or just a very simple, plain sort of, oh, we'll just see how they get on route.
• 11:26
  There's other things that you can do and can try with your animals now. I think that's such a good
• 11:30
  way to progress. Yeah, exactly. You shouldn't just have to rely on medication to think about
• 11:37
  the other things that you can do to help improve a situation or help improve the quality of life
• 11:44
  when they're poorly. So, yeah, I mean, the vet has also suggested some gabapentin
• 11:51
  for Betty in case there is some arthritis there. It can also help with nerve-related pain as well.
• 11:58
  So, that's the bit that I haven't quite got my head around because I've been reading that Pogailiopathy
• 12:04
  isn't painful, but then there could be some nerve pain. So, I don't know. That's the bit I need to
• 12:12
  get my head around. So, like I say, it's lots of trial and error, lots of reading around things
• 12:16
  because the vet can tell you stuff and tell you all this information and it doesn't always go in
• 12:22
  because you're trying to absorb everything and trying to make sure Betty's kind of happy and
• 12:27
  comfortable in the session with the vet. There's a lot going on. Yeah, there's a lot going on because
• 12:31
  she can get a little bit like, you know, gets a bit excited or a bit stressed. So, you're sort of
• 12:36
  trying to keep her calm and comfortable and listen to what the vet is saying and they can use terms
• 12:42
  and take like terms and jargon that you're like, oh, I just don't know what. Yeah, no, there's a lot
• 12:48
  to take in and I've kind of like because I've been working in a little bit of that sort of patient
• 12:52
  health sector for a little while. Patients do say that like being a patient is a job. You've got to
• 12:57
  really like proactively, you know, particularly if you've got like a difficult diagnosis or
• 13:01
  undiagnosed condition, trying to manage that and teach yourself and feel like you are in charge of
• 13:09
  your journey is full-time work. It's a lot of effort because like you say, you've got to learn
• 13:14
  the terminology, you've got to understand the diagnoses, you've got to understand the pathways,
• 13:19
  you have to advocate for yourself and in your case, you're advocating for Betty and there's a lot to
• 13:25
  take in. It's quite overwhelming, I think, so don't underestimate like, you know, what you've
• 13:30
  been through and going through. It's hard slog, I think, for people. Yeah, it is. I mean, she was
• 13:36
  tired after the treatment but I was also a bit like, oh, I'm really tired too. And a lot more
• 13:42
  questions than answers probably. Yes, exactly. I think that's the nub of it. I think that's
• 13:47
  what I'm trying to say is there's lots to sort of ask and get your head around and it's not
• 13:53
  always straightforward. Maybe you never quite get answers. I think, yeah, that's interesting
• 14:01
  because I think that's one of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast because we went
• 14:06
  through our own journey with Weaver and I was quite, not frustrated, I don't know what the
• 14:11
  word is really, but I found it quite difficult and disappointing that it wasn't as clear and
• 14:15
  that a lot of people, veterinary practices and things, there's a lot of guesswork and a lot of,
• 14:21
  I think, I have read this from veterinary practices on their various podcasts and
• 14:29
  forums that they are risk averse for various different obvious reasons. They don't want to
• 14:34
  put anybody at risk but that doesn't necessarily help us as owners. And you know, a lot of the
• 14:39
  time I just want an opinion. I just want someone who knows more than me to give me their opinion.
• 14:46
  It doesn't have to be right or wrong and I appreciate that there's a lot of things to
• 14:49
  consider and it's not straightforward. Medical things are never that straightforward and
• 14:53
  particularly with animals. I just want another opinion or another expert who's just done this
• 14:58
  before or been there or had more training than me to either give me some reassurance or give me just
• 15:03
  a little nudge of extra information than I can decide for myself. And so, yeah, I can understand
• 15:08
  the sort of difficult journey that everybody's on but this is kind of why I wanted to do a podcast
• 15:12
  so that more people could hear and speak about this and share, not necessarily to kind of,
• 15:18
  oh, I don't think we'll be able to fix things but it's just about talking more about it, I think.
• 15:23
  Yeah, because there's an emotional component as well, isn't there? It's supporting your pet
• 15:30
  physically but then also what you are going through emotionally and how it impacts you as
• 15:38
  the owner or the pet parent. I mean, of course, Betty is the focus and she comes first but I'm
• 15:45
  going on that journey with her just like you are with Weaver and so it impacts us in many
• 15:51
  different ways and I think something I'd like to perhaps explore in another podcast is the emotional
• 15:56
  impact and how you deal with it. But yeah, I mean, the journey you're on with Weaver,
• 16:04
  there's a bit more because I know you've been dealing with this now for a bit longer than I have.
• 16:08
  Yeah, yeah and I was going to say we could share some stories to reassure each other on the
• 16:12
  gabapentin perhaps if it helps as well. But yeah, so in brief and then again, I might go into it in
• 16:18
  a bit more detail because it was very complicated. So last August, Weaver had some what looked like
• 16:24
  seizures but it was so complicated. We weren't sure if she was having a heart problem,
• 16:28
  if it was a back problem, neurological problem. It was a cancer at one point, we weren't sure
• 16:34
  whether that was happening and we got passed from different specialists which I was relieved
• 16:39
  that there were these specialists out there. I didn't know that these existed so even that in
• 16:43
  itself was just like an amazing thing for me because I just thought we had like generalist
• 16:48
  veterinary people but there's specialists out there which is great. The sort of short story is that
• 16:55
  they think it was either epilepsy or this back problem. We had an MRI like you were talking about
• 17:01
  because we wanted to get to the bottom of whatever the problem was because they found like a twitch
• 17:05
  in her back and it detected like a bone spur. I think it's called spondylosis but they also said
• 17:11
  that that could have just been something that they would have found anyway like it might have just
• 17:15
  been coincidental and it might not be causing the problem. So we were kind of left after a few months
• 17:22
  of back and forth and a bit of stress and uncertainty with no real certainty still and
• 17:28
  it feels to me like there's been mixed opinions. But anyway, we've been given this
• 17:32
  gabapentin which I know now you say Betty's on and it either treats epilepsy or it treats nerve
• 17:38
  pain. So either way she's being supported hopefully through this gabapentin and since
• 17:43
  August, actually I think the episodes started in June actually or even at the end of May,
• 17:49
  but it was August that we managed to start the treatment phase and she's not had anything since
• 17:55
  then. So that's really, really good and we've been relaxed back into normal life for quite some time
• 18:02
  but we're kind of going through now a little paranoia phase and this is where I was kind of
• 18:06
  wanting to speak about because it's sort of like that uncertainty again because what we're doing is
• 18:11
  reducing down the gabapentin. We're reducing it down because we're not really sure what we're
• 18:17
  treating for. The vets said, you know, under the vet's supervision they said you could do that and
• 18:22
  see how she gets on but I'm a little in the darkest to really what we're doing and I feel
• 18:26
  like I need some more advice and more sort of steerage from the veterinary clinic so we are
• 18:30
  going to go back but it's just because we're coming down on the doses I'm now watching her a
• 18:37
  bit like a hawk and noticing things that might not be there. Little odd movements, little twitches and
• 18:43
  I'm thinking is that a seizure? Is that something? It might not be anything but yeah we're just
• 18:48
  trying to sort of ride that wave out and the plan is to re-book her in for a check-up because one
• 18:54
  of the vets also said the dosage that we're currently on is so low that it's actually
• 18:58
  below therapeutic benefit. We were just a little bit paranoid because yeah symptoms may start to
• 19:04
  come back so we're just like in a little bit of a sort of watchful eye on her at the moment which
• 19:09
  is not comfortable or relaxing and it's a little bit kind of stressful so we're going to try and
• 19:13
  take her to the vets and just get some reassurance on this therapeutic amount that we're giving her
• 19:19
  and again I've had differing opinions from the internet and from the vets and from a different
• 19:23
  vet and I just want to make sure I get some reassurance and clarity on what we're actually
• 19:28
  doing and why we're doing it but it's just it's just very confusing anyway so yeah but otherwise
• 19:35
  you know I'm saying this and I'm worried about her but then she's jumping fighting she's running
• 19:40
  around chasing a brother she just seems absolutely like bonkers and normal so I don't you know so
• 19:49
  it's just so hard animals because I know they mask things and that's what I'm really trying
• 19:53
  to sort of work around and get to the bottom of stop worrying as much I suppose I don't know
• 19:59
  it's hard yeah yeah no you're right I mean I've been sort of reading a lot that cats and dogs
• 20:06
  hide pain or mask it and you don't always know if they're in pain which I find quite hard to
• 20:14
  deal with because then you just worry that your your fur baby is is in pain your pet is in pain
• 20:21
  and you just don't know and don't know what to do but at the same time you don't want to over
• 20:26
  over medicate so you don't want to be giving them something they don't need because there
• 20:30
  are probably other side effects yeah I've heard with some pain relief you have to check
• 20:36
  the liver to make sure that yeah they're not and there's no other sort of damage but that
• 20:42
  kidneys yeah yeah can can handle it and if you you're saying that the dose you're giving weaver
• 20:49
  is that right isn't part of isn't doesn't have any therapeutic benefit now because it's so low
• 20:56
  so like we're thinking what's the point in giving her it yeah yeah but then also cost
• 21:01
  yeah I don't want her to be on something she doesn't need to be but then I'm also nervous
• 21:06
  to take her off completely in case it is doing something it's so difficult to know what to do
• 21:11
  it's a minefield isn't it and yeah I mean I actually haven't started Betty on the gabapentin
• 21:17
  yet I'm going to but when I saw the physio they said well it'll be quite hard then to tell whether
• 21:24
  it's the physio that's making the difference or the gabapentin if you're doing both at the same
• 21:29
  time it might be worth just having a few physio sessions first and see whether that that does help
• 21:35
  especially the laser therapy and reducing the inflammation so it's almost like ruling out one
• 21:40
  thing at a time but at the same time that can be quite time consuming quite expensive and of course
• 21:48
  we would invest that time and money in our pets but before you know it a few months have passed
• 21:54
  you've spent a lot of money and you're not any clearer on what the problem is I get like a
• 22:02
  personal anxiety about not acting quick enough like I'm so bad at this with particularly with
• 22:08
  your animals and when you think they're in pain I just wouldn't want them to be in any kind of
• 22:12
  discomfort and so I'm like I get really agitated and anxious to just treat something and not let
• 22:19
  it dwell it's interesting you talk about like not knowing what animals are you know going through
• 22:24
  and they're masking pain and so recently I found some information about grimaces of cats and their
• 22:30
  facial expressions and trying to read a cat better and use this as a scale I've actually found I
• 22:37
  think it was an American professional veterinary professional who'd created an app for this so you
• 22:42
  could reassure yourself or check your cat as to whether they were in pain and you use this sort
• 22:47
  of visual cues to see whether their ears were low whether their muzzle was tight and I had this even
• 22:52
  last night so I'm getting paranoia with Weaver and then last night over over a period we've been
• 22:57
  worrying about Murray and his teeth or some of the pain because according to this grimace scale
• 23:02
  he was looking in quite a lot of pain last night but then I'll go up to him and sort of check him
• 23:09
  and stroke him and then his face relaxes and it looks completely different and so it's I just
• 23:14
  don't know I'm never feeling like I am totally comfortable or reassured as to know whether to
• 23:20
  go to the vet or not go to the vet and it's just really hard I think with Ross with Murray
• 23:24
  god I said Roscoe then who's the old old boy Roscoe with Murray I think what we're gonna do
• 23:31
  is I've got an online veterinary contact your vet through my insurer I might just give them a
• 23:38
  quick call and get some reassurance through them and then I might book him in for an appointment
• 23:42
  just to have a face-to-face with the vet anyway just to reassure me and check him over but never
• 23:48
  ends yeah it does I feel like just need a glass of wine talking about this a glass of wine or some
• 23:55
  chocolate I'm like oh it's it's hard it's hard it's so worrying and it's such a mental toil oh
• 24:02
  I know I know well sending lots of kind of get well vibes or positive vibes your your way and
• 24:10
  also to Weaver to you and back to you because you're just starting on that little journey of
• 24:16
  diagnosis and treatment so I hope it goes all right I know thank you we'll keep you we'll
• 24:21
  keep you posted and let you know how it all goes I think I might need some massage as well
• 24:26
  talk about wine and chocolate but when I've been sat massaging Betty on an evening so say do it for
• 24:31
  every evening so I've been doing it on while we're on the sofa watching tv I'm like oh actually
• 24:37
  me I need I need some massage in my life I don't remember the last time I've had a massage I used
• 24:42
  to love having kind of Thai massage where they really get the elbows into your knots into your
• 24:48
  back and yeah your shoulders and get yourself booked yeah I that's the thing you kind of you
• 24:55
  focus on your pets don't you I think Betty's probably more not pampered but she's more well
• 25:00
  looked after sometimes than me so a massage is much needed but yeah before we end the podcast
• 25:06
  today I know there's something that you're also keen to touch on that isn't that's been
• 25:11
  like the news on your mind but that's in the news that I think you want to share
• 25:15
  yeah it's not positive not necessarily positive and I was kind of hoping we could end on a good
• 25:19
  note but I did want to share it because we promised at pause between us that we wouldn't
• 25:24
  be too negative and we try and keep things positive but you know we also want to share
• 25:28
  stories of those things that kind of want to educate and share relevant news for people if
• 25:33
  it's if we feel strongly about it and I thought it'd be a good one just to raise awareness with
• 25:37
  the listeners but I've tried to do it in a way that kind of gives both views and let you decide
• 25:41
  what you think but so apparently not apparently but it's it was reported in the news I think last
• 25:46
  week that a number of chains such as Burger King, Nando's, Popeyes, Wingstop, Wagamama, Frankie and
• 25:53
  Benny's and Bella Italia sorry to name and shame but you have been in the news have joined a new
• 25:58
  industry scheme called the sustainable chicken forum now this sounds good but this still allows
• 26:03
  the use of fast growing so-called franking chickens instead of committed to a slower
• 26:09
  growing high welfare breeds where chickens obviously grow and develop normally. KFC is
• 26:14
  also quietly backed away from its promise claiming that the industry can't support enough higher
• 26:18
  welfare chickens to meet the demand and apparently it's due to people seeking high protein foods
• 26:24
  which just does not seem like the right answer to me. These fast-growing birds reach slaughter
• 26:29
  weight within a few weeks and this is usually obviously linked to welfare problems like
• 26:35
  lameness and other diseases and higher death rates so although KFC previously signed up to
• 26:42
  this better chicken commitment which was a previous agreement with a few different kind of
• 26:50
  chicken users I don't know what you call them it would mean that this previous better chicken
• 26:56
  commitment would mean that slower growing breeds would have more space and have more
• 27:00
  better welfare reports but yeah so there's campaigners like the humane league and open
• 27:07
  cages say this is a u-turn which breaks public promise to millions of animals and ignores
• 27:12
  higher welfare suppliers but the companies that we mentioned earlier say they haven't given up
• 27:18
  on chicken welfare and their argument is that this better chicken commitment isn't the right
• 27:23
  framework because it focuses too much on the slower growing breeds and instead their new
• 27:30
  sustainable chicken forum I know I'm using lots of terms I hope you're keeping up but they say
• 27:35
  this is moving from the better chicken commitment to this sustainable chicken forum they want a
• 27:40
  more holistic approach to welfare balancing that with climate targets supply issues keeping chickens
• 27:47
  affordable and so focusing on welfare rather than being tied to one specific type of chicken
• 27:52
  welfare I don't know why in my opinion why they can't do that before getting that one
• 27:58
  running like why switch before you've got a new program that actually does support chicken
• 28:03
  welfare but I'll leave our listeners to decide for themselves if they want to go to Burger King,
• 28:08
  Nando's, Popeyes, Wingstop, Wagamama, Frankie O'Malley's or Bella Tania because I won't be.
• 28:13
  No me neither I mean I stopped eating chicken a long time ago because of the welfare standards
• 28:20
  the lack of welfare standards the low welfare so yeah yeah I mean I've been a vegetarian since
• 28:26
  I was about 16 so not touched it but I always make sure my husband buys the best quality
• 28:32
  welfare protected free range etc etc chickens as we'll pay the money but shouldn't have to
• 28:38
  cost people a ridiculous amount to get you know well cared for well looked after
• 28:45
  meat produce in my opinion. No I agree lots lots to think about there and probably enough to fill
• 28:51
  a podcast for another time in terms of the debate around this but yeah yeah something just to think
• 28:58
  about as we end today so we're on our this is our second long pause so we'll have a short pause
• 29:04
  coming up next but yeah thank you everyone for listening great connecting with you now
• 29:10
  yeah and we've got some great guests line up for upcoming podcasts so we'll keep you posted when
• 29:15
  we've got those confirmed and booked in and we look forward to hearing from you all if you've
• 29:21
  got any ideas about what you'd like us to cover get in touch in all the ways that's promoted
• 29:25
  through our social media channels perfect all right we'll see you next time take care thanks
• 29:29
  see you soon take care bye goodly time to cough at the end there sometimes