Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #72 What Does Genesis Teach Us About God?

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#72 What Does Genesis Teach Us About God? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  Hey friends,
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  Tim Wright here,
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  the Deep Grace Diving Podcast,
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  and today we're going
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  SPEAKER_00: We are wrapping up our look at the book of Genesis.
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  We've been doing a Bible study on some of the major highlights
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  of that first book of the Bible.
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  And we're going to kind of summarize everything today by asking
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  a couple of questions of John.
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  SPEAKER_00: In particular,
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  what are some insights that he gained from our study of Genesis
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  about God,
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  SPEAKER_00: maybe studying the Bible?
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  SPEAKER_00: Terry, believe it or not,
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  SPEAKER_00: A week later, is still at the dentist's office.
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  SPEAKER_01: We should all pray for Terry.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a long time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Only because we record two episodes a week.
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  So she's sitting in the dentist's chair,
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  but it seems like a week for her.
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  SPEAKER_00: And probably does anyway.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: No offense to dentists.
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  SPEAKER_00: We all need them.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I've got with me...
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  there we go uh john burgess and uh he is uh going to be um we
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  put him on the hot
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  seat last week trying to see how much of the joseph story he
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  remembered did pretty
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  well he knew that there was a guy named joseph and that he
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  ended up uh in egypt so
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  other than that there's a few more details we had to fill in
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  but yeah yeah that was
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  SPEAKER_00: close it was close it was good
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  So just a couple comments from me,
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  and then we'll kind of see where we are.
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  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that we've tried to say here,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially with the book of Genesis,
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  SPEAKER_00: but we said it with our Gospel of Mark too.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Bible wasn't written to us, it's written for us.
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  Which means we need to understand to whom the Bible was written
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  and how they
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  SPEAKER_00: understood these stories.
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  SPEAKER_00: back thousands and thousands of years ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: What was their worldview?
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  SPEAKER_00: What was life like for them?
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  SPEAKER_00: How did they relate to the word, spoken word or written word?
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  SPEAKER_00: What was their science like?
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  SPEAKER_00: We said, how about the genre?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because the Bible is made up of many different styles of writing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And to say we take the Bible literally does the Bible disservice.
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  Unless you mean we take the Bible literally to say what the
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  Bible means to say.
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  If you say that we take the Bible literally and we believe all
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  trees will clap
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  SPEAKER_00: their hands,
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  SPEAKER_00: you got a problem.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
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  we run into a lot of problems when we try to take Genesis
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  chapters 1 through 11,
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  SPEAKER_00: the creation story,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  SPEAKER_00: Genesis 1 literally,
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  SPEAKER_00: because it doesn't make any sense if you take it literally.
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  SPEAKER_00: But poetically, it makes a great deal of sense.
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  um so we want to read the bible as it wants to be read um we
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  want to understand the
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  bible in the context in which it was written and not what it
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  says to us today and
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  again when we read it when we if we don't read it the way it's
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  meant to be read we
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  miss out on a lot of things and i'm going to give you two quick
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  examples yeah uh i
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  SPEAKER_00: just came across this i'm reading i'm actually listening to a book um
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  SPEAKER_00: on audio.
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  I can't remember the name of the author,
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  but it's called Better Ways to Read the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_00: And about halfway through, it's really excellent.
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  SPEAKER_00: Better Ways to Read the Bible,
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  written by a guy who came from a pretty conservative
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  evangelical background,
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  but unfortunately asked a lot of questions that got him kicked
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  out of church.
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  And in the process was sort of able to see a more gracious way
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  of looking at scripture.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he's the one who kind of mentioned these two things.
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  In Genesis chapter 2,
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  God says,
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  if you eat of the fruit of this tree,
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  you will surely die.
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  And then,
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  of course,
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  they eat from the tree in Genesis 3,
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  and they don't die immediately.
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  SPEAKER_00: They keep on living.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the question is, okay, so what's that all about?
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can make the argument,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: eventually they died,
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  SPEAKER_00: and maybe they would have lived forever.
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  SPEAKER_00: But he really came up with what I thought was a much better explanation,
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  not unlike the one we used when we talked about God calling
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  Abraham to sacrifice
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  SPEAKER_00: his son Isaac.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know that God is anti-sacrifice of children.
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  And yet the story writer sets the context for God seeming to
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  ask for child
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  SPEAKER_00: sacrifice only to turn that story upside down and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't want it.
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  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't ask for sacrifices.
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  SPEAKER_00: God is the one who provides.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it sort of turns the gods of the other culture on their heads.
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  SPEAKER_00: Similar here.
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  The other gods,
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  if you sinned against the gods,
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  you did something bad,
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  they'd kill you.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you disobeyed them, they'd kill you.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you're reading this story and you say,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you eat from this tree,
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  SPEAKER_00: the fruit of this tree,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're going to die.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to kill you.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's what the gods do.
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  SPEAKER_00: But oops, nope, not this God.
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  SPEAKER_00: Suddenly a subversive part of God's nature shows up.
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  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't kill people who get it wrong.
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  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't kill people who disobey.
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  SPEAKER_00: God forgives them.
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  SPEAKER_00: God restores them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  if we just read it literally about a talking snake and naked
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  people and so on,
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  SPEAKER_00: we miss some of the nuance of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: The nuance we miss, and we touched on it a little bit last week.
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  When you wanted to strip someone in the ancient Near East of
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  their inheritance,
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  SPEAKER_00: symbolically,
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  SPEAKER_00: you would strip them of their clothes.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you've got Adam and Eve who have been stripped naked.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are no longer the inheritors of God's whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: His place, the garden, God's legacy, the inheritance, whatever you want.
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  SPEAKER_00: But what does God do?
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  SPEAKER_00: God puts new clothes on them.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: To say you are still an inheritor.
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  Even though what you did was wrong,
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  you are still an inheritor of my grace.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
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  we see that again in the prodigal son story where the prodigal
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  son comes to his
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  SPEAKER_00: legs.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's been disinherited or should be.
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  And the first thing the father does,
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  puts a robe on him to say,
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  no,
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  you're still my son.
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  SPEAKER_00: You are still a part of the inheritance,
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  which is a radically different view of God than the gods of the
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  other cultures.
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  SPEAKER_00: If we always read these things literally,
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  SPEAKER_00: rather than for what they're teaching us about God,
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  SPEAKER_00: we miss out on some of that great nuance.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we went through a lot of them together in our study of Genesis.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there's a lot in Genesis we didn't do.
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  But we wanted to kind of use this as a wrap up chance for John
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  to talk a little bit
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  SPEAKER_00: about some of the insights that he's had,
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  SPEAKER_00: maybe.
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  SPEAKER_00: So depending on this could be a short podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, John.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Take it away.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is it,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: as we've been going through Genesis,
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  SPEAKER_00: and you weren't able to be with us on all of them,
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  but from the ones that we did together and that you and I have
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  done before,
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  what are some insights that you've had about Genesis that maybe
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  you didn't have
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  SPEAKER_00: prior?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: First, I think two reminders.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the first one you already talked about,
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  just a continual reminder of putting yourself in the place of
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  the people that this
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  SPEAKER_01: was written to in order to understand in what way it was written for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we say that all the time.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose some people are like, okay, I got it.
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  I just know that no matter what portion of the Bible I'm
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  talking about,
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  I easily forget that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think the struggle,
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  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
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  is that we just tend to put ourselves into one of the roles
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  that are in front of
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  SPEAKER_01: us.
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  SPEAKER_01: in order to learn from what we're reading.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when we do that,
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  we automatically just sort of bring our own culture and our own
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  timeline with.
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  SPEAKER_01: So a good reminder on that.
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  I think that what continues to come back to me over and over
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  and over about Genesis
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  SPEAKER_01: is God's pursuit.
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  SPEAKER_01: Just this sort of unrelenting
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: sort of you get the sense that it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: now I'm going to try a little bit of this over here.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then now I'm patiently trying a little bit of this kind of a thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's just over and over and over that he continues to come after us.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is just so beautiful.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  And of course,
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  every story is just pregnant with a radically different kind of
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  God.
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  SPEAKER_00: than the God of the surrounding cultures.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's one piece,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially for Genesis,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we don't want to forget,
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  that Genesis is carving out the identity of the God of Israel
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  from the gods of the
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  SPEAKER_00: other cultures.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again,
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  if you read this book through the lens of the people of Israel
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  who have been
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  SPEAKER_00: enslaved in Egypt,
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  SPEAKER_00: they've been set free.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is sort of their first introduction.
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  SPEAKER_00: okay, who saved us?
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  SPEAKER_00: Who just rescued us?
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  SPEAKER_00: We know Moses did, but who's this God that rescued us?
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  I mean,
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  we know about all these other gods in Egypt,
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  the sun god,
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  the river god,
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  the frog gods.
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  SPEAKER_00: Who is this God?
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we've heard the creation stories.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know these gods are mean.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know they take their toll.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know that they don't think much of humanity.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then you've got this book come along.
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  SPEAKER_00: And some of the stories seem familiar, and then there's a twist.
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  And over and over again,
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  they're reading about a radically different kind of God.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was a radically different understanding of humanity.
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  And I think sometimes we miss just how radical this is because
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  so much of that
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  SPEAKER_00: understanding of the humanity is now woven into Westernized culture.
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  SPEAKER_00: You may not always live it out well, but all people are created equal.
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  in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution,
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  whichever is a declaration.
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  You know,
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  this whole thing of human worth,
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  that's a Jewish Christian concept.
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  We just assume that it's an enlightenment concept or it's a
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  concept that's been passed down.
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  SPEAKER_00: But no, it's not.
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  It's a fairly new understanding of humanity compared to what
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  the Egyptians had,
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  SPEAKER_00: even compared to what the Romans had during the time of Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  yeah and i think to your point once you it's so cataclysmic
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  what we're talking
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  about here and i think maybe we do you know the downside of
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  reducing some of these
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  stories to flannel graph is is they don't they don't have the
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  gravitas that they
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  should have with them right yeah and of course with kids that's
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  that's how we're
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  going to tell stories right we're just going to tell the
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  stories and the beauty
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  SPEAKER_00: part of the beauty of stories
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  And it's a little more difficult on a podcast like this because
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  part of what we're
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  SPEAKER_00: trying to do is to dig into what the stories mean.
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  But the power of stories is sometimes you just let the story
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  sort of immerse
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  SPEAKER_00: yourself in the story and let the story do what it's going to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a story,
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  we tend to all come at it from different points of view and
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  different places,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we hear it in different ways each time.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not all like going to a movie.
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  And you sit through the same movie with your spouse and you
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  walk out and you both
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  SPEAKER_00: had a completely different experience of that movie.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because the story just hit you differently.
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  And that's why these stories,
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  we read them over and over and over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because every time we read them, we hear them differently.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's Jonathan Haidt in his book, The Righteous Mind.
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  where he says something to this effect,
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  we process life through story,
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  not through reason.
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  And brains are set up to process stories,
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  not to be rational,
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  first and foremost.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Built on stories.
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  And,
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  and so we've got these major,
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  major stories,
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  both from what we would call more,
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  SPEAKER_00: parable of the first 11 chapters and then more biographical,
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  but all of them still saying something about God and God's
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  relationship to
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  SPEAKER_00: humanity.
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  yeah yeah and i agree i think that we've been responding to
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  stories in powerful
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  ways for so long it's just part of who we are and who god built
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  us to be so it
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  makes complete sense to me that he comes to us in through story
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  and says and and
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  and when we when we read the bible as sort of a textbook
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  instead of a storybook i
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  SPEAKER_01: think we lose some of that power
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  SPEAKER_01: which reminds me of the second thing I was going to say,
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  which is they sort of the reminder through Genesis for me is
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  that some of the stuff
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  SPEAKER_01: is really hard to read and it's really difficult to understand.
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  And I think that,
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  you know,
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  there's a couple of responses that I have to that.
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  Sometimes I like to take a break and just move into the gospels
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  for a while,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: where I feel like I can,
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  SPEAKER_01: I,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's of use to me without,
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  SPEAKER_01: with less effort,
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one time,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: a long time ago in church,
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  someone saying that they were really having a hard time reading
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  the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember this smart pastor said, well, don't read it right now.
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  Just go into the New Testament and there'll be time to come
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  back to the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I want to encourage people that think that from time to time.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's totally fine.
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  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, when you are in Genesis,
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  please come with a little bit of extra responsibility knowing
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  that if something
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  SPEAKER_01: doesn't make sense,
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  that it's going to require a little bit more study on your part
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  to figure out where
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  SPEAKER_01: God is in that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's just because things are radically different for us,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  as we worry about the influence of Facebook than the listeners
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  of Genesis we're
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  SPEAKER_01: worrying about.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a very good point.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, we've talked about this in the past.
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  Both you and Terry have said,
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  well,
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  how are we supposed to know that about the Bible?
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  SPEAKER_00: And my answer continues to be the same.
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  First of all,
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  there is something powerful about reading the Scriptures by
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  ourselves.
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  I think that there are passages where God speaks to us better
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  than others.
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  SPEAKER_00: and that God can speak to us through Scripture when we read it ourselves,
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  SPEAKER_00: even if we don't have a lot of background.
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  SPEAKER_00: There may be a lot of stuff we don't understand.
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  SPEAKER_00: There may be a lot of stuff that we just sort of skip through.
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  But then there are going to be those passages when we get there
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  and we think,
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  SPEAKER_00: okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: all right,
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  SPEAKER_00: that helps.
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  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
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  SPEAKER_00: But again, the Bible was never meant to be read as a solo expedition.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's meant to be read in community.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's meant to be read
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  SPEAKER_00: in conjunction with leaders who have put some time in to studying it.
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  Again,
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  you can't study Shakespeare unless you've got somebody who
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  understands Shakespeare.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of things that we learn from other people.
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  We could probably self-teach ourselves,
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  but most of us don't have the time to do all of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But
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  SPEAKER_00: Having said that,
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  SPEAKER_00: however,
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  SPEAKER_00: when we study the Bible,
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  SPEAKER_00: and when we study the Bible with quote-unquote experts,
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  SPEAKER_00: we need to ask ourselves some questions.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Does this understanding of God that they're sharing with me,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: or they're teasing out of Scripture,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: make God more loving or more angry?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is this a God...
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Who loves all people or who has enemies?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is this a God who punishes or who forgives?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: If the teaching you're getting is about an angry God,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: a condemning God,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: and you've got to get your act together,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: this God has enemies and God's enemies are your enemies,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: then
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's not probably the best Bible study to be a part of.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: If your Bible study doesn't,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: in the end,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: help you see that the mission of Jesus is to love all people,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: especially the poor,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: the oppressed,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: and the outcast,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: stand up for the little guy,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: the little girl,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: or if Scripture is weaponized against other people,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: it's probably not the best Bible study to be in.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And some of that stuff is really attractive because,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think we all respond and fairly so to a little bit of us versus them,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: particularly in today's climate.
• 18:01
  And I think it takes a little extra thought to back off from
• 18:04
  that and really take a
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: look at what's going on.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for me,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: it's always,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: especially when I get to the Old Testament,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for the consistency of God.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the consistency of the God?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:16
  who's who's come before me and open up my eyes in the New
• 18:20
  Testament and where is
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: that come in in the Old Testament and I think really the
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I would say is,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: and you do a great job at this,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: and I appreciated your teachings for a long time,
• 18:34
  but it's easy to grow up for whatever reason and sort of feel
• 18:40
  like these stories
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: are not applicable to me,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: that they're hard to understand,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: and that they're plain vanilla.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's certainly okay,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Tim will back me up on this,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: to enjoy a night of British drama
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're sitting in front of the TV,
• 19:01
  there's no contribution coming from you other than whatever you
• 19:03
  paid for the
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: streaming service.
• 19:05
  with just a little bit of a contribution to these stories,
• 19:10
  they're just explosive.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're just mind-blowing and rich.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're finding,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm speaking to myself as much as anybody,
• 19:19
  but if I'm finding that I'm reading the Bible and it's not
• 19:23
  resonating with me or it
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: seems plain vanilla,
• 19:27
  it's normally an indication to me that I could put a little bit
• 19:30
  more effort into it
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: and the vibrancy and richness of the story will come out.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that starting point is so crucial.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is your starting point for God?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: If your starting point for God is what Genesis 1 says,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: that God is a good God,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: God created all people in God's image,
• 19:54
  and throughout Genesis we see that God's passion is to
• 19:59
  reconcile with all people,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: not just some,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: but with all people,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Then you read the stories in the Bible differently.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: If your starting point is that God is angry,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: and God is hell-bent on sending us to hell,
• 20:13
  and it's just begrudgingly that God saves us by murdering his
• 20:17
  son on a cross,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: then you're going to read the Bible very differently.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've said this before,
• 20:28
  because I happen to fall on the side that the God of the Bible
• 20:32
  is a God of...
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: immense grace,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: surprising grace,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: mind-blowing grace,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: when you read stories in the Bible that suggest otherwise,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think those are points to pause and say,
• 20:48
  what are the people of Israel or the people in this story
• 20:51
  getting wrong about God?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: How have they misunderstood God?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because part of the beauty of the old Testament,
• 21:00
  and we've seen this in Genesis is it doesn't cover over the
• 21:06
  stuff that people do,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: even the chosen people.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's, it's all raw.
• 21:12
  You've got Abraham and Sarah kicking Hagar out of the house and
• 21:16
  abandoning his son.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: You've got the people of Israel shunning the poor,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: taking the side of the rich over and over again.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: The prophets have to condemn them for that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: So over and over again,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: you see real humanity,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: which means the people of Israel don't always get it,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: just like we don't always get it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And their misunderstandings, which are recorded in Scripture...
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: are not to be taken as this is what God is like,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: but to be taken as this is a misunderstanding of God.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let me read a quote for you.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading another book.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you the name of it.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'll read the quote first.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: If your church isn't telling you to love your enemies...
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: but keeps telling you who your enemies are.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're not really in church.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes from a book called separation of church and hate.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty powerful stuff,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: but I think his point,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: and he's got a lot of them like that,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 22:27
  If we're reading scripture and we're coming away with a God who
• 22:30
  is angry and a God
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: who wants to punish,
• 22:32
  then we have fallen into the misunderstandings of the people in
• 22:36
  the stories who
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: missed the point over and over again.
• 22:41
  And over and over again,
• 22:42
  God has to intervene and say,
• 22:43
  no,
• 22:43
  that's not what I'm like.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I want.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've told you over and over again, I don't want your sacrifices.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to feed the poor.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want your sacrifices.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to stand on the side of the oppressed.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want your sacrifices.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to welcome the immigrant, and so on and so forth.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of stuff doesn't always fit our political agendas.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:04
  But when you look at Scripture,
• 23:07
  and if you want to say,
• 23:08
  I want to be a follower of Jesus—
• 23:11
  then we got to look at what the Bible really says about God,
• 23:15
  not the misunderstandings.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: The misunderstandings are great because we say, well, I'm not alone.
• 23:20
  And what is their misunderstanding then going to unearth for me
• 23:23
  about what God is really like?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it's a,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: it's an incredibly good reminder and I appreciate the,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: the,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: if you're listening to this,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's a,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: to me,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: it's a,
• 23:36
  just an incredible blessing to be able to walk through and
• 23:39
  unfold this stuff
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: together.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it reminds me how important the community is.
• 23:45
  and that you have lovingly disagreements over what this stuff
• 23:51
  means and where God is in it.
• 23:53
  And even if you are a listener to this podcast and you've
• 23:59
  listened to every episode twice,
• 24:01
  There's still so much stuff that we didn't even get a chance to
• 24:04
  touch on that
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: continues to show this loving and forgiving God.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
• 24:12
  so much easier just to live with an us-them and then pour all
• 24:17
  my hate on the them
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: and then make up my own self-worth being in the us crowd.
• 24:23
  that's right so much easier than it is to say you know what
• 24:26
  does it mean to love
• 24:27
  your enemies right um which you know spoiler spoiler alert does
• 24:31
  not actually mean
• 24:32
  like your enemies so but you'll have to wait for that or that's
• 24:36
  right let's face it
• 24:38
  they may be enemies because they're they're not good people
• 24:42
  they're not behaving in
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: great ways but hate doesn't change them love always does um
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: so I think,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: as we walk through Genesis in particular,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: it really gives us an opportunity to see the genius of Scripture,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: how honest it is.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we said this even in the Mark Bible studies.
• 25:06
  If you want to write a story about why your religion is the
• 25:10
  best religion,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to make it as pretty and shiny as possible.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: The Bible does just the opposite, right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: You want to see vile people at work.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Read Scripture.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the most vile of them are the religious leaders.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 25:26
  Genesis alone has got sex and incest and rape and murder and
• 25:34
  all of these things
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: that break the heart of God,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: some of it perpetuated by the people of God.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And God has to step in.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's always with grace,
• 25:46
  but sometimes that grace has a little bit of a heavy hand to it
• 25:50
  in that not that
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: God comes in and punishes us.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: By heavy hand,
• 25:55
  I mean sometimes God really needs to get our attention and just
• 26:00
  hits a square
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: between the eyes.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's not who I am.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's messy.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the upshot of it being messy is my life is messy too.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm looking for someone,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking in my heart,
• 26:15
  looking for a God that can relate to that messiness and
• 26:18
  understands that messiness
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: and keeps me humble.
• 26:22
  So I don't read about David or somebody else and think,
• 26:26
  well,
• 26:26
  at least I didn't do that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or at least I didn't sell my siblings into slavery.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's messy and I appreciate that.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: the through line,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: there are several,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: but the through line for Genesis is,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: number one,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: God is good.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: God loves humanity.
• 26:43
  God is a God whose first and only position toward us is
• 26:46
  forgiveness,
• 26:47
  not punishment.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: God is a God who provides for us.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And God is faithful.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Even when we're not, God is faithful.
• 27:00
  And so when Abraham and Sarah tried to manipulate having a
• 27:04
  child through Hagar,
• 27:06
  God still remained faithful to Abraham and Sarah and gave them
• 27:09
  their own son and
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: remained faithful to Hagar and her son Ishmael.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: When the brothers sell Joseph into slavery,
• 27:20
  God remains faithful to the promise and he continues to take
• 27:23
  care of Israel.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: to get them to the point where they're going to be able to eat.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see that over and over again.
• 27:30
  No matter what the people of Israel do,
• 27:33
  God stays faithful and restores and reconciles.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes when we read these stories of what seems like punishment,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: remember,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: they believe that everything that happened,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: good or bad,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: happened at the hands of the gods.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's their interpretive filter.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: That changes over time.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: But when we see these things like Adam and Eve being punished,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: people can't see my air quotes.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Adam and Eve being punished.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or the people of Israel being punished.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: These aren't punishments.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes these are just the consequences of our actions.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: If I hit my thumb with a hammer, it's going to hurt.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a punishment.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the consequence of hitting my thumb with a hammer.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if I start living outside of God's best,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: loving others,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: loving myself,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: caring for others,
• 28:32
  and start living selfishly and start living in ways that
• 28:38
  creates enemies and so on,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: eventually there'll be consequences to them.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: They're not punishments.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're consequences.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: If I jump off a building, gravity isn't punishing me.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the consequence of trying to defy gravity.
• 28:52
  and and god doesn't take those consequences away from the
• 28:55
  decisions right often
• 28:58
  just like a parent who's seeing some questionable decisions
• 29:02
  from their young
• 29:02
  children says you know man i i almost uh weep to that knowing
• 29:07
  that there will be
• 29:07
  consequences to that decision and that's right that those
• 29:10
  they're going to be
• 29:10
  somewhat painful right but i won't abandon you no and we'll get
• 29:16
  through this
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: together
• 29:18
  But you're right,
• 29:19
  sometimes we do things and there are just consequences we can't
• 29:23
  avoid.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Those are not punishments.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where as the people of Israel grow over time,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: especially when Jesus breaks in,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: some of that stuff gets decoupled,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: That you're suffering because you're a sinner.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus decouples that.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're being punished because you've sinned.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus decouples that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: But even in the Old Testament, you begin to see some of that happening.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's so important to read it from their perspective.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then to say, so what does it mean for us today, right?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And again, these are stories about God and about God's love for us.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I am reminded,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: maybe this is a way to kind of close it a little bit,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: but Noah lived another 350 years after the Great Flood.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: He lived 950 years.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: As you have said,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: oftentimes the writers would use,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: length of life to indicate how great someone was.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 30:26
  So I don't know that it's 950,
• 30:28
  but whether it was 949 or 89,
• 30:30
  you know,
• 30:32
  Noah had to be tired.
• 30:33
  Well,
• 30:37
  remember,
• 30:39
  as great as Noah was,
• 30:40
  and this is where the Bible is so good.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Noah and his family are spared.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as Noah gets off that ark,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: he gets drunk and he's lying there naked,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: exposing his shame and then curses his son.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is sort of the story of humanity.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And God says, I'm not going to give up on you.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: I refuse to give up on you.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: He's relentless.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's well said.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: God is relentless.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to be back next week.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to take a little bit of a break from Bible studies.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: We've been doing that now with Mark and then with Genesis.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: To be honest, we have no idea what we're going to do.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got a couple of days to figure it out.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully by next week, we'll figure it out.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully by next week, Terry's out of that dentist chair.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think what that means is we've prayed about it.
• 31:30
  There's a big plan in place,
• 31:32
  a lot of strategy,
• 31:34
  and you're going to love it.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, God's really going to love it.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you all.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to the deep grace diving podcast.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim, right.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Along with John D. Burgess, Terry summer's not with us today.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoy this, share with a friend.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you've missed some episodes,
• 31:53
  they're always available for you where you get your podcast and
• 31:56
  they're always
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: free.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: 71 episodes.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Free of charge.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: We can't beat it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.