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Mark interviews author Mark Malkoff. · The Mark Simone Show

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  Speaker 1: No Mark Simon Show Live from the Woor Life Back Studios.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Johnny Carson probably the greatest name in the history
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  Speaker 2: of television. Now, I was the Johnny Carson expert of
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  Speaker 2: the world. I knew everything. But then I started listening
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  Speaker 2: to this thing called the Carson Podcast. Mark Malcoff did it.
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  Speaker 2: He had like four hundred guests. Everybody was ever in
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  Speaker 2: the night show. By the time I listened to that,
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  Speaker 2: I knew. I learned fifteen thousand things I never knew
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  Speaker 2: before the podcast, The Carson Podcast. You could still listen
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  Speaker 2: to it, it's online. The Carson Podcast was so successful
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  Speaker 2: he then got Mark Malcoff got this big book deal.
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  Speaker 2: And the book is the definitive ultimate book about Johnny Carson,
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  Speaker 2: the best book ever written about him. It's called Love
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  Speaker 2: Johnny Carson. The book is out. Go to Amazon. You
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  Speaker 2: can order it there wherever you get books. But just
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  Speaker 2: go to Amazon order the book Love Johnny Carson, by
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  Speaker 2: Mark Malcoff. You'll be amazed. You'll love it. The author
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  Speaker 2: is with us now, Mark Malkoff, how you doing.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for having me back, Mark.
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  Speaker 2: And how's the book doing. It's been about a year now,
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  Speaker 2: right that it's been out.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been about a little bit more than six months,
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  Speaker 1: you can believe it. And yeah, it's the USA Today
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  Speaker 1: best selling book. I've heard from people just all over
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  Speaker 1: the country that just missed Johnny Carson, and the book
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  Speaker 1: brings people back. I talked to over four hundred people,
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  Speaker 1: and I mean, you knew Johnny Carson, so just to
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  Speaker 1: be able to talk to someone like yourself and get
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  Speaker 1: these inside stories, I thought this is the first book
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  Speaker 1: that really chronicled who Carson was from the people that
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  Speaker 1: knew him.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, in the book and the podcast, you interviewed
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  Speaker 2: those closest to him, the producers, the directors, the writers,
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  Speaker 2: his close friends, all of that, the real Johnny Carson.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they thought of him as cold and aloof
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  Speaker 2: but that was when he was at work. He was
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  Speaker 2: a warm guy outside of that. But the real Johnny
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  Speaker 2: Carson still kind of a mystery, right, nobody's ever figured
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  Speaker 2: out one hundred percent, have they not?
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  Speaker 1: One hundred percent? I Mean, he definitely, you know, had
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  Speaker 1: some other issues and he would open up to his friends,
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  Speaker 1: but only to an extent, you know. I mean he
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  Speaker 1: had this Midwestern upbringing where you didn't really show your feelings.
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  Speaker 1: His brother Dick Carson, who who was the Tonight Show
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  Speaker 1: director in New York, said, you know, we weren't Italian.
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  Speaker 1: We didn't No one ever really said what they were
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  Speaker 1: thinking in their family.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, Johnny Carson and a lot of people watch
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  Speaker 2: him that midwestern that aw shucks, kind of sweet Midwestern.
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  Speaker 2: But he was a tough guy when he needed to
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  Speaker 2: be ambitious tough, right, tell us about that?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I think anybody that has longevity. I mean, this
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  Speaker 1: is a man for thirty years that stayed number one,
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  Speaker 1: is going to be a competitive guy. I mean he
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  Speaker 1: was in bed watching his show every night like a
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  Speaker 1: football coach taking notes. He was watching the guest host,
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  Speaker 1: he was in watching his competition. I mean, in nineteen
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  Speaker 1: seventy one, he had four TVs going on at once
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  Speaker 1: in his home at the un Plaza. He's watching his
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  Speaker 1: Dick have It, He's watching his own show, He's watching
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  Speaker 1: David Frost, he's watching it their merv or Joey Bishop.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean he was. There was nobody that
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  Speaker 1: was more competitive. I mean he pays himself like a
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  Speaker 1: prize fighter. I mean he would just show up maybe
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  Speaker 1: two hours before work. He'd didn't work in all day,
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  Speaker 1: but he wanted to conserve his energy for that ninety minutes.
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  Speaker 1: I mean originally an hour forty five minutes than ninety minutes,
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  Speaker 1: and I mean he would be exhausted by that, and
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  Speaker 1: it would every ounce of his bean would be used
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  Speaker 1: on that show.
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  Speaker 2: See, here's the thing. As long as I've been in broadcast,
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  Speaker 2: always tell you, you know, you should listen to your show,
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  Speaker 2: like I should take this show today and then listen
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  Speaker 2: to it and go over it and study it and
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  Speaker 2: make improvement. You're supposed to do that. Every day I've
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  Speaker 2: done that. The total is zero times. Never do that.
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  Speaker 2: It's tough because as soon as you start playing, oh god,
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  Speaker 2: it sounds awful, you can't. But he would do that, right,
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  Speaker 2: That's how you really get to be I.
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  Speaker 1: Think it's definitely a blessing and occurs. I mean he
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  Speaker 1: was obsessed. I mean David Letterman, who modeled his career
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  Speaker 1: after his hero Johnny Carson. The first thing Dave, because
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  Speaker 1: I worked for Dave, the first thing Dave would do
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  Speaker 1: after the taping is go to his office and he'd
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  Speaker 1: be given a copy of the show that they just taped,
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  Speaker 1: and Dave would watch every second of his broadcast. And
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  Speaker 1: I mean it, I do not think that that is
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  Speaker 1: overall a positive thing. But Johnny was obsessed. You know,
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  Speaker 1: he would tell a journalist, he would say, you just
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  Speaker 1: you you know, you're number one, and you just start
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  Speaker 1: coasting and then you before you know it, somebody knocks
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  Speaker 1: you off. I mean, we all know this that people
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  Speaker 1: tried to take this guy on, and you know, nobody
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  Speaker 1: could make a dent. I mean, there was nobody that
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  Speaker 1: was more competitive than carterson. Even someone like Tom Snyder
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  Speaker 1: you would never think would be Carson would be like,
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  Speaker 1: this guy's a thread. I mean, Johnny really kept Snyder
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  Speaker 1: an arm lean arm's leg had to you know, he
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  Speaker 1: was so powerful. I mean it was twenty percent of
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  Speaker 1: NBC's profits at one point that every Tom Snyder guess
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  Speaker 1: Johnny had to approve. You know, even David Letterman, who
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  Speaker 1: followed Carson. Carson produced, Johnny had to give. John gave
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  Speaker 1: Dave Letterman all these rules that he thought would hinder Dave.
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  Speaker 1: No monologue. You have to have a band that's four
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  Speaker 1: people or the last. You can't have a sidekick that
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  Speaker 1: sits on the couch. All these things to keep his
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  Speaker 1: competition down.
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  Speaker 2: Uh, well it worked.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, it did work, But there was nobody more generous.
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  Speaker 1: At the same time. You know, all these people that
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  Speaker 1: were unknowns go on a show and immediately within a
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  Speaker 1: couple of weeks the back Joan Rivers went back within
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  Speaker 1: two weeks. It blew up Burt Reynold's life change going
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  Speaker 1: on Carson. Reynolds says to this is that before he
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  Speaker 1: left this earth that Johnny Carson was the biggest break
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  Speaker 1: of his career. He loved him, Bett Middler unknown and
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  Speaker 1: as she's suddenly a superstars. So the guy's generosity, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: there's nobody in TV that was more generous than that guy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. The strange thing was he would always have unknown
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  Speaker 2: comics on and as a result, he discovered Joan Rivers,
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  Speaker 2: he discovered he canna have it a thousand comedians. He
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  Speaker 2: discovered why when Jay Leno took over a stand up
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  Speaker 2: comic himself, why did he stop that tradition?
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  Speaker 1: Jay Is first of all, gave me fifty minutes for
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  Speaker 1: the book when we talked about this. The ratings, unfortunately,
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  Speaker 1: for both music and comedians, they go down. According to
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  Speaker 1: NBC research. The reason music is always at the very
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  Speaker 1: end of those late night shows is because the ratings
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  Speaker 1: are down. At one point, Saturday Night Live try to
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  Speaker 1: convince Lord Michaels to get rid of the music as
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  Speaker 1: because music was the ratings were going down. And Jay
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  Speaker 1: was a company guy, you know, Johnny Basically NBC did
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  Speaker 1: whatever Johnny wanted, and Johnny said, no, I love comedians.
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  Speaker 1: I am going to launch comedians. And even though Jay
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  Speaker 1: Leno was one of those comedians Johnny launched. When Jay
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  Speaker 1: got the Tonight Show as a company man, he would
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  Speaker 1: look at every rating for every minute, and he saw
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  Speaker 1: the stand ups were going down in the ratings and
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  Speaker 1: suddenly this guy who was a stand up himself, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: they were almost never on his show. And it was
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  Speaker 1: really really tough I think for the comedians in Leno's
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  Speaker 1: peers to see that he would do that and kind of,
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  Speaker 1: you know, sell out his community more or less for
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  Speaker 1: a few radiance points.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, we're talking Mark Malcoff. The book. Get the book.
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  Speaker 2: It's called Love Johnny Carson. Best book ever written on
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  Speaker 2: Johnny Carson's called Love Johnny Carson. Go order it on Amazon.
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  Speaker 2: Favorite guests Carson guests. Everybody's got their own list. Mine
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  Speaker 2: would start with Don Rickles Rodney Devisfield. Who would you
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  Speaker 2: put on your list?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that those two were amazing. I
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  Speaker 1: think Buddy Hackett was just an unbelievable all those three.
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  Speaker 1: Johnny would throw out the pre interview. Charles Grodin was
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  Speaker 1: another person that Johnny out of three people wanted to
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  Speaker 1: be exclusively on a contract that they would only do
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  Speaker 1: Johnny show. Charles Grudy would go on this show and
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  Speaker 1: just make fun of Johnny, and people in America thought
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  Speaker 1: it was real that this guy was insulting their hero Johnny.
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  Speaker 1: Carson and Johnny got such a kick out of it.
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  Speaker 1: They would get letters, why would you have this guy?
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  Speaker 1: Charles Grodon? He's so rude and mean. But Carson loved
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  Speaker 1: every second. And you know, I got to go to
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  Speaker 1: Connecticut twice to spend time with Charles Grodin, and it
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  Speaker 1: was just a highlight of his life going on with Carson.
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  Speaker 1: And in retirement, they had a dinner lunch rather in
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  Speaker 1: Los Angeles, and these people got so emotional. Mark talking
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  Speaker 1: to me, his tears in their eyes. I mean, sign
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  Speaker 1: felt to this day with his hundreds of millions billions
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  Speaker 1: of dollars, says going on, Carson was the biggest moment
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  Speaker 1: of his career the last sign felt tape and Johnny
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  Speaker 1: sent a note to Jerry's dressing room congratulated in him.
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  Speaker 1: And those are the things that Jerry to this day
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  Speaker 1: will say, was that still that the top accomplishment and
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  Speaker 1: the stuff that meant the most was Carson's approval.
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  Speaker 2: Well, now what guess he hated do he never wanted back?
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  Speaker 2: Who were some of those.
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  Speaker 1: Some of the people he didn't like is if they
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  Speaker 1: would go on and they were ride to his staff.
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  Speaker 1: He did not like Jerry Lewis because Jerry Lewis yelled
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  Speaker 1: at his cue card person. People that had bad manners
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  Speaker 1: he had no tolerance for. And he you know, Danny Thomas,
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  Speaker 1: unfortunately with all the good he did, was seeing shoot
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  Speaker 1: said some inappropriate stuff in one of Carson's secretaries and
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  Speaker 1: it got back the cart and then he was banned.
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  Speaker 1: So anybody that went into one of those things with
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  Speaker 1: bad behaviors, if anyone was on a substance and it
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  Speaker 1: really affected their performance and they were off their game,
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  Speaker 1: like Sam Kennison, they were never allowed back. Kennison was
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  Speaker 1: always was unfortunately inebriated, and he could They had to
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  Speaker 1: edit part of his appearance because he was so out
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  Speaker 1: of it and you were not going to come back
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  Speaker 1: if that was the thing of that was the case.
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  Speaker 1: He just despised bad manners. And then if anybody in
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  Speaker 1: their personal life, like Joan Rivers, he felt betrayed him.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, it really go we go into the
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  Speaker 1: in the book, there's really deep dive on what actually happened.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, Johnny got hurt more, very easily, more than
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  Speaker 1: a normal person. He was devastated with Joan Rivers, and
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  Speaker 1: we go into what actually happened, and it was very
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  Speaker 1: different from this River's account.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we love Joan Rivers, but she really did. She
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  Speaker 2: really did betray him, despite her version of it.
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  Speaker 1: Her her own friends said that that she owed Johnny
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  Speaker 1: that you need to tell him. Diller, who was the
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  Speaker 1: head of Fox I sat down with him in New York.
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  Speaker 1: He said, she just said, you have to tell Johnny
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  Speaker 1: you're going to be competing against him. I'm then a
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  Speaker 1: poker game with him and friends with Jenny. You need
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  Speaker 1: to tell him that. She didn't, And there was more
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  Speaker 1: to it. I mean, Joan tried to take Johnny's producer
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  Speaker 1: Peter less Sally, every talent coordinator was offer double their
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  Speaker 1: salary to go with Joan, and Johnny just could not
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  Speaker 1: believe that this person who he really did care about
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  Speaker 1: would do that to him. And when he found out
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  Speaker 1: about it, because Joan, he tried to get hold of
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  Speaker 1: Joan all weekends. She wouldn't take his calls. When he
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  Speaker 1: finally found out, he started crying. According to somebody who
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  Speaker 1: knew Johnny, and he was really really devastated. And once
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  Speaker 1: somebody hurt him, he was so sensitive. The relationship, unfortunately
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  Speaker 1: was over.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so hey, we all remember the final night he
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  Speaker 2: goes off there. Yeah, that was thirty four years ago.
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  Speaker 2: People can't believe that it's thirty four years of that.
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  Speaker 2: And Mark Melcoffe, you're a young guy. You don't really
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  Speaker 2: remember the early Johnny Carson, do you. You weren't around then.
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  Speaker 1: I was sixteen when he went off the air. I
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  Speaker 1: have my dad to tell me back going to the
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  Speaker 1: show in nineteen sixty eight. He went to six B,
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  Speaker 1: which is now Jimmy Fallon and he got to see
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  Speaker 1: everyone from Barbara McNair to Doug McClure, to David Fry
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  Speaker 1: to his Nixon. So my dad's memories of going to
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  Speaker 1: see Johnny and New York were unbelievable. Unfortunately, the first
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  Speaker 1: ten years NBC erased almost everything, and Johnny you know,
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  Speaker 1: was devastated, but thankfully with the Burbank years, but the
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  Speaker 1: New York years were endlessly fascinating.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was actually the best period of Carson. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: the book is called Love Johnny Carson. We want you
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  Speaker 2: to go to Amazon and order it. Because I knew
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  Speaker 2: everything you can know about Johnny Carson. Then I get
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  Speaker 2: this book. There's like fifteen thousand things I didn't know,
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  Speaker 2: so you'll learn everything in the world about Carson. And
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  Speaker 2: it's such a well written book. It's called Love Johnny Carson.
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  Speaker 2: Go to Amazon and get it. Oh. Now, tonight we're
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  Speaker 2: having dinner with Jimmy Fayla because he's a huge Carson
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  Speaker 2: fan and he loves your book. So that'll be interest
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's it means a lot.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, that's gonna
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  Speaker 1: be a good time for sure.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Our boss here, Tom Cutty, is arranged to take
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  Speaker 2: us to dinner and Jimmy Fayla. He's the closest thing
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  Speaker 2: to Carson right now in television because on Saturday Night
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  Speaker 2: he opens with a long monologue that's fifty to fifty
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  Speaker 2: makes fun of Democrats Republicans, which is what Carson did, right,
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  Speaker 2: And you don't see that anymore, do.
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  Speaker 1: You, That's right. I mean Jimmy Yeah, does a phenomenal
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  Speaker 1: job in Models at after Carson, which I really really loved.
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  Speaker 1: But yet we never knew Johnny's politics. I mean he
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  Speaker 1: he you know, definitely was friends with George Herbert Walker
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  Speaker 1: Bush and he really got a kick out of one another.
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  Speaker 1: Johnny did stay over at the White House and they
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  Speaker 1: actually talked when Bush was on from Air Force One
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  Speaker 1: and they got a kick out of it. So I mean,
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  Speaker 1: he did have Bill Clinton on as well when Clinton,
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  Speaker 1: you know, it was you know at the DNC when
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  Speaker 1: he fell on his face and everyone thought Clinton's life
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  Speaker 1: was over. And he played saxophone well before Orcineo everybody
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  Speaker 1: thinks to and went on our sinio it is. You know,
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  Speaker 1: that was the first time he ever did it. But
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  Speaker 1: it was Johnny that made that happen the first time
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  Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty eight. So yeah, Johnny, we just
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  Speaker 1: never knew was politics, and there was definitely something really
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  Speaker 1: refreshing about that he was. He hammered everybody equally. But
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  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you knew this guy
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  Speaker 1: was just you know, they were jokes.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's a great book. I'll see you tonight,
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  Speaker 2: Mark Malcoff.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, looking forward to it.
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  Speaker 2: Everybody, everybody go to Amazon and get the book. It's
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  Speaker 2: called Love, Johnny Carson. You'll love the book Love Johnny
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  Speaker 2: Carson on Amazon. Mark Malcoff, thanks for being with us.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you, CERYL see you tonight.
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  Speaker 2: Take care all right, take care. Yeah, that'll be interesting.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I've actually never met Mark Malcoff. I've talked
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  Speaker 2: to him on the phone a million times. I was
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: on the podcast a few times. I just realized I've
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: never actually met him. But we'll do that tonight. And
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: don't forget Jimmy Fla is on every night here from
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: nine to midnight. You can hear him then, and Curtis
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: sliwa is on w R now every morning. You can
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: hear Curtis sliwa and Larry Menty six to ten here
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: on seven ten WR