Latest / The Ecommerce Revolution Podcast / Protect Your Business: Legal Essentials for Emerging Entrepreneurs

Transcript

Protect Your Business: Legal Essentials for Emerging Entrepreneurs · The Ecommerce Revolution Podcast

0:01
Welcome to today's episode of the ecommerce revolution podcast where we
0:04
diveinto
0:05
the dynamic world of ecommerce and uncover the tools and tactics that
0:09
empower
0:09
SPEAKER_00: today's emerging entrepreneurs.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Our podcast is part of our community with the same name.
0:15
The community is geared to providing emerging e-commerce entrepreneurs
0:18
with courses,
0:19
content and coaching to help you all launch and grow successful businesses.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Check us out at ecomrevolution.co Let's get things started.
0:38
welcome to another episode of the ecommerce revolution podcast today we're
0:42
diving
0:42
SPEAKER_00: into the legal world to understand what legal matters emerging ecommerce
0:47
entrepreneurs need to know to get their business started and what they need
0:51
toknow
0:52
as they scale our special guest today is damian guzman founder and legal
0:59
counselof
0:59
SPEAKER_00: enigma tech legal which offers fractional
1:03
counsel which by the way for those who don't know what that is it's part-time
1:06
and
1:06
on-demand counsel to startups and small businesses with 14 years of
1:13
practicewith
1:14
big law firms as in-house counsel to tech companies such as visa everybody
1:19
knows
1:19
who visa is and most recently as the head of legal for mid-sized fintech
1:24
startup
1:24
damian's expertise ranges from pre-formation which we'll be tapping into
1:29
today
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Formation and post-formation legal advice,
1:33
SPEAKER_00: including governance,
1:34
SPEAKER_00: financing,
1:35
SPEAKER_00: hiring,
1:36
SPEAKER_00: and contracting.
1:37
All very important elements that you need to know as an e-commerce entrepreneur.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: He's also a certified privacy and payments professional.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: His superpower,
1:47
SPEAKER_00: because we always want to know what our guest's superpowers are,
1:50
SPEAKER_00: is that unlike most fractional and outside counsel,
1:52
SPEAKER_00: he has spent several years practicing in-house.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: And he also has founded a tech company.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: So without any further ado,
2:01
SPEAKER_00: and maybe I should just say without any further ado,
2:03
I should also say that he's a member of both California and New York bars.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: So that means he can practice in both states.
2:11
So without any further ado,
2:13
I welcome Damien to the Ecommerce Revolution podcast.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Damien.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Great to have you on the show today.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much, Ramin.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: Great.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for the introduction.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
2:26
I'm happy to get started talking about how businesses get off the ground and
2:31
getup
2:32
SPEAKER_02: and running and hopefully do that in a liability conscious way.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: I do want to say that even though I'm only,
2:40
SPEAKER_02: I guess,
2:41
SPEAKER_02: licensed in California and in New York,
2:44
SPEAKER_02: the type of counsel that I provide,
2:46
SPEAKER_02: which is mostly advisory and not court related,
2:50
SPEAKER_02: So I can pretty much advise clients all over the United States.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: So I'm just FYI there.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
3:00
And is there anything legally that we need to say before we get started here?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Because this is a little bit of a different podcast than we usually do.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: We're speaking to an attorney,
3:09
SPEAKER_00: and there are some probably rules out there that we should put out there.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: So go ahead and tell us what you need to say.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Ramin.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: And just my standard,
3:18
I think most lawyers give their standard disclaimer is that I am not your lawyer.
3:22
There might be one of my clients online at the moment,
3:25
but this is not legal advice.
3:28
The information that I give on this call or on this podcast is for
3:32
informational purposes only.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Great, great.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, I appreciate you saying that.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: I know it's very important.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: And you know,
3:40
SPEAKER_00: this is an area,
3:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:41
SPEAKER_00: as I've learned along the way,
3:43
SPEAKER_00: legal tends to be one of those things that businesses,
3:46
SPEAKER_00: especially small businesses,
3:48
SPEAKER_00: startup businesses,
3:49
SPEAKER_00: maybe the ones,
3:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:50
SPEAKER_00: the emerging,
3:50
SPEAKER_00: maybe they don't have a lot of capital,
3:52
they tend to ignore and they don't really know how to navigate this world.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: And I love the fact that you are focused
3:59
SPEAKER_00: on that small business world,
4:01
SPEAKER_00: and you really like to provide,
4:02
SPEAKER_00: and you and I have had a number of conversations outside of this podcast,
4:06
SPEAKER_00: and you really have a passion for helping small businesses.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Tell me before we get started, where does that passion come from?
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Why focus on the small business when there are big,
4:16
SPEAKER_00: huge law firms out there,
4:18
SPEAKER_00: and they pay attention to big businesses?
4:21
SPEAKER_00: What's your angle on that?
4:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
4:24
SPEAKER_02: so I kind of am taking a different approach and,
4:27
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:27
SPEAKER_02: some people might call it,
4:28
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:28
SPEAKER_02: leaving money on the table.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: I don't look at it that way.
4:30
I look at it as,
4:31
you know,
4:32
I've been a successful,
4:33
I am a successful attorney.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: I've practiced for many years.
4:37
SPEAKER_02: I've done, you know, the billion dollar deals.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: I've, you know, done the big law firms.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: I had a Park Avenue office,
4:44
SPEAKER_02: 46th floor in New York City,
4:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:47
SPEAKER_02: did all the things,
4:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:49
SPEAKER_02: practicing in-house for visa was a great experience.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: I learned a ton about payments.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: and even being head of legal for a mid-stage startup,
4:59
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I sort of have done what most lawyers kind of set out to do.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: Last year, I sort of had a personal event.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: My mother passed away unexpectedly,
5:11
SPEAKER_02: and I took a sabbatical,
5:12
SPEAKER_02: so I took a break from life and my career.
5:16
SPEAKER_02: And coming out of that, going back into the sort of
5:22
SPEAKER_02: the world that I was working in before just didn't make sense to me.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to do something that was a little bit more kind of,
5:30
SPEAKER_02: you know,
5:32
SPEAKER_02: better,
5:33
made me feel better about what I was doing with the rest of my life and the rest
5:36
of
5:36
SPEAKER_02: my career.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: And what came out of that was,
5:39
SPEAKER_02: you know,
5:40
SPEAKER_02: Enigma Tech Legal,
5:42
SPEAKER_02: which I set out to be a fractional counsel practice for
5:48
SPEAKER_02: those types of startups that I would typically work in-house for.
5:52
But by keeping my rates low,
5:53
I was able to attract a lot of small businesses.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: And my employee,
5:58
SPEAKER_02: Cecilia,
5:59
SPEAKER_02: will tell you that serving small businesses,
6:03
giving them access to legal services and advice that typically only corporations,
6:09
SPEAKER_02: large corporations can afford,
6:12
SPEAKER_02: changes things,
6:13
SPEAKER_02: I think,
6:13
SPEAKER_02: for the better.
6:15
SPEAKER_02: The types of clients that I'm able to support
6:17
SPEAKER_02: such as, you know, mom and pop shops.
6:20
I have a mother of three who's a single mother of three who was looking to buy a business.
6:25
And,
6:26
you know,
6:26
being able to support those types of folks feels really good to me.
6:30
SoIkindoffoundthepassionsortofkindofbyaccidentbyjusttryingtokeep
6:36
SPEAKER_02: my rates fair to clients.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: And I love it.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Well,
6:42
Ilovethatsomesaywe'releavingalittlemoneyonthetableaswellatthe
6:47
e-commerce revolution because we focus on that emerging e-commerce entrepreneur.
6:51
And a lot of businesses out there are paying attention to the seven,
6:54
eight figure businesses.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: And so I love your approach.
6:57
I'msorrythatwhathadhappenedtobiglifeeventslikethatopenoureyestoa
7:04
SPEAKER_00: different way of doing something.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that you're doing this.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: I truly do because I am also a small business.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: I talk to entrepreneurs all day long and this is definitely an area
7:16
SPEAKER_00: of confusion, honestly, like what to do and what to get into.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: So why don't we just dive in,
7:21
SPEAKER_00: if you're good with this,
7:22
SPEAKER_00: and let's jump into some questions that I know that our audience has,
7:27
SPEAKER_00: questions that I have,
7:28
questions that I've heard along the way from other entrepreneurs about what
7:32
to do.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think let's start off with formation.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: This is an area that you're in expertise.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: And the number one question I always get is,
7:41
SPEAKER_00: When should I be an LLC?
7:43
SPEAKER_00: When should I be a an S Corp?
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Why should I do that?
7:49
SPEAKER_00: What is the sole proprietor mean and all that?
7:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think I'd like to understand,
7:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
7:54
SPEAKER_00: more from a standpoint of,
7:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
7:57
SPEAKER_00: what are the requirements involved in informing?
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Why should you know,
8:01
maybe you can speak to the why part of it if there is a certain timetable of when
8:05
a
8:05
SPEAKER_00: business should do this.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, how do they do it?
8:08
SPEAKER_00: How do they go about doing it outside of,
8:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:10
SPEAKER_00: maybe,
8:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:11
SPEAKER_00: they contact you directly to do this,
8:13
SPEAKER_00: but also what else should they be aware of?
8:15
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: So I want to just kind of set the baseline.
8:19
So the baseline is when you do business without any sort of formation or kind
8:25
of
8:27
SPEAKER_02: registrations or anything like that,
8:28
SPEAKER_02: you're doing business as a sole proprietor.
8:31
SoifIgooutfrontandsetupalemonadestandandsitoutthereandsell
8:36
SPEAKER_02: lemonade for a dollar,
8:38
SPEAKER_02: I am operating as a sole proprietor.
8:42
That means that my personal assets are subject to claim by someone who gets harmed.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: and I'm saying that broadly, gets harmed by my business.
8:55
So if I use water that is somehow infected with some bacteria and somebody
9:03
drinks
9:03
SPEAKER_02: that lemonade and gets sick,
9:05
SPEAKER_02: my house,
9:06
SPEAKER_02: my car,
9:08
SPEAKER_02: my personal assets are potentially at risk.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: And I can be sued for that harm that resulted from my business.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: I, therefore,
9:21
SPEAKER_02: And there hasn't been a scenario yet where I've met a sole proprietor,
9:26
SPEAKER_02: somebody who's just doing business.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: They could be a house cleaning service.
9:31
They could be a mobile coffee service where I don't say get an LLC set up
9:37
because
9:38
SPEAKER_02: what an LLC does as well as a corporation is.
9:42
It typically shields your personal assets from claims by others that are
9:47
harmedby
9:48
SPEAKER_02: your business.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: So if I had,
9:50
SPEAKER_02: for example,
9:51
SPEAKER_02: before I went out front and started selling lemonade,
9:53
SPEAKER_02: I set up Damien's Lemonade Stand LLC.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: I go outside, I'm serving this.
9:59
Somebody gets sick because there was contaminated water inadvertently
10:03
servedto
10:04
SPEAKER_02: that customer and they get ill.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: They sue the LLC.
10:10
SPEAKER_02: And there are some exceptions to where it's called piercing the veil.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: You might have heard that word before.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: But what lawyers,
10:17
SPEAKER_02: when they say that,
10:17
SPEAKER_02: it means that,
10:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
10:19
SPEAKER_02: even if you have an LLC or a corporation,
10:21
SPEAKER_02: there are some factors that may be present that where a court will say,
10:27
SPEAKER_02: you know,
10:28
SPEAKER_02: we're going to go after your personal assets.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: even if you have that shielding.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: But for most of the clients that I've dealt with,
10:36
SPEAKER_02: that rarely,
10:37
SPEAKER_02: if ever happens,
10:37
therearewaystomakesurethatyouareoperatingasabusinessandasan
10:41
SPEAKER_02: independent entity.
10:43
You're not just creating the LLC to shield against a particular act or behavior.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: So just with that caveat,
10:51
SPEAKER_02: when you have an LLC and I go outside,
10:53
SPEAKER_02: or if I have an LLC and I go outside and I serve and somebody gets ill,
10:57
They sue me,
10:58
they sue the LLC,
11:00
and the LLC's assets are subject to the claim.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: They can't come through and then go after my house,
11:07
SPEAKER_02: go after my vehicle,
11:08
SPEAKER_02: my personal cars,
11:10
SPEAKER_02: my personal bank accounts,
11:11
SPEAKER_02: my retirement fund.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: Those are all shielded.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: So even though,
11:15
SPEAKER_02: as I believe you know,
11:17
SPEAKER_02: that in California,
11:18
SPEAKER_02: at least,
11:18
SPEAKER_02: there's a mandatory franchise state tax of a minimum of $800 per year.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: That's sort of the cost of doing business as an LLC.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Personally,
11:27
SPEAKER_02: and this is what I advise my clients,
11:29
SPEAKER_02: is that that cost,
11:30
SPEAKER_02: as well as the filing fees,
11:31
SPEAKER_02: which are about $150,
11:32
SPEAKER_02: that cost,
11:32
SPEAKER_02: let's just say $1,000 cost.
11:38
is worth the protection that you get against your personal assets if
11:43
somebodygets
11:44
SPEAKER_02: harmed or claims that they're harmed because of the business that you do.
11:48
So with that said,
11:50
would you like me to kind of go in through the specifics on...
11:54
Yeah,
11:54
I mean,
11:55
I'd love to know,
11:55
yeah,
11:55
the specifics and this differs state by state as well.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
12:00
SPEAKER_00: there's the eight hundred dollars in California,
12:02
which I was very well aware of because we used to have a California corporation.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: And then when we moved to Texas, it's different.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, the structure is different.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: The process is very different.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: And this is, I assume, true for all states, correct?
12:14
SPEAKER_02: True that the the the the specifics in terms of formation may differ.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: But the general gist is the same.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: So so just to kind of back up a little bit.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: So each state has its own laws that govern its own its businesses.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: So it's corporations.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: So you might hear people saying,
12:36
SPEAKER_02: I want to form a Delaware corporation,
12:38
SPEAKER_02: even though I'm in Texas.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: And there are reasons why you might want to do that,
12:43
SPEAKER_02: which I'm happy to go into on this call or a subsequent call podcast.
12:50
But the general gist is a limited liability company generally shields your
12:55
personal
12:55
SPEAKER_02: assets from claims against the LLC.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: Same is true for a corporation.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: That's sort of the purpose of a corporation, an LLC.
13:06
They are to create a distinct business entity that can do business and shield
13:12
the
13:13
directors or the officers or the shareholders' personal assets from claims
13:17
sothat
13:18
SPEAKER_02: they could operate freely as a business.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: You know,
13:21
I have practiced and formed so many LLCs and corporations out of Delaware,
13:28
SPEAKER_02: out of New York,
13:28
SPEAKER_02: out of California.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: The process is different.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: And,
13:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:32
a lawyer can help you go through the different state laws and make sure that
13:37
you're
13:37
SPEAKER_02: complying with each of them.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: You know,
13:40
SPEAKER_02: California's I'm very comfortable with,
13:42
SPEAKER_02: New York's I'm fairly comfortable with,
13:45
and Delaware I'm fairly comfortable with as well in terms of kind of being
13:48
ableto
13:49
kind of dig through what the LLC Act for the corresponding state says about
13:54
what
13:54
SPEAKER_02: needs to be,
13:55
SPEAKER_02: for example,
13:56
in your operating agreement and what needs to be in your articles of organization.
14:00
Again,
14:01
you don't necessarily need a lawyer to form an LLC or a corporation.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: I highly recommend it.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: Ben, we can kind of get into why, if you would like, Ramin.
14:15
yeah sure i mean which is also the other question that always comes up is you
14:19
know
14:19
why can't i use legal zoom why can't i use rocket lawyer why can i not you know
14:24
why
14:24
do i need to spend the money and the time that goes into hiring a lawyer you know
14:29
i
14:30
knowthismaybeahardquestiontoaskanattorneybutiwouldlovetoknowyour
14:33
opinion like if you were on the other side what would you be telling somebody
14:38
you
14:38
know yes in this case you need a lawyer or in this case you you're okay with
14:42
legal
14:42
SPEAKER_00: zoom or
14:43
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you should just have a lawyer no matter what.
14:46
So thank you for that question,
14:47
and I don't mind answering it honestly at all.
14:51
SPEAKER_02: So just so that you and your listeners are aware,
14:55
SPEAKER_02: I have three key values with which I do operate my practice,
15:00
SPEAKER_02: and it's fairness,
15:01
SPEAKER_02: transparency,
15:02
SPEAKER_02: and efficiency.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: I am very blunt when it comes to being asked questions,
15:07
SPEAKER_02: as long as it's not obviously confidential to a client,
15:11
SPEAKER_02: but
15:12
SPEAKER_02: To answer your question, so you can technically go on to LegalZoom.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: We all know this.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: You can go on to the Secretary of State of California's website.
15:24
They have a really awesome website called bizfile.ca.gov,
15:30
I believe is the URL.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: But it's very handy.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: It's very simple.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: It's handy because anybody can go in and...
15:41
SPEAKER_02: form their own LLC or their own corporation.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: You can find forms on LegalZoom.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: You can find forms on the Secretary of State website,
15:48
SPEAKER_02: too,
15:49
that will give you your operating agreement if you have an LLC and your bylaws,
15:54
SPEAKER_02: a set of bylaws for a corporation.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: There's essentially the same thing.
15:58
It's basically the document that governs an LLC or a corporation,
16:01
respectively.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: And you can form your entity on your own without a lawyer.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: And I've had clients who've done that,
16:09
SPEAKER_02: who I've subsequently then engaged with,
16:14
SPEAKER_02: and I always ask them,
16:15
SPEAKER_02: send me your formation documents so I can see what's in there.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: And we'll find, in every case, something needs to be fixed.
16:24
So what I would recommend is,
16:28
if you can find a lawyer who is affordable to you,
16:35
I would recommend having your lawyer do the formation or at least consult you,
16:42
consult with you with respect to forming your corporation so that you
16:45
understand
16:46
SPEAKER_02: what are in the bylaws.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: When your bylaws are your operating agreement,
16:50
you're basically agreeing that the company is going to stand by them and
16:54
operate to them.
16:56
SPEAKER_02: If you don't know what they mean, how are you going to operate to them?
17:00
SPEAKER_02: The
17:04
SPEAKER_02: I guess the big topic nowadays,
17:06
SPEAKER_02: and we're going to talk about it a little bit later,
17:08
SPEAKER_02: but is AI,
17:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:10
SPEAKER_02: chat GPT.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Anybody can go on to chat GPT and say,
17:13
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:13
SPEAKER_02: draft an operating agreement for a California LLC.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: It'll spit out a document.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: You're like, okay, cool.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: I got an operating agreement.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: I sign it.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: And that becomes the operating agreement of the LLC.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: If you don't know what's in there and you get sued,
17:31
potentially by another member or another owner of the LLC,
17:36
that could be problematic,
17:37
right?
17:37
Because you're basically saying,
17:39
I am entering into a contract that I don't understand.
17:45
SPEAKER_02: When people say,
17:45
SPEAKER_02: oh,
17:46
SPEAKER_02: I got my document off ChatGPT,
17:48
SPEAKER_02: it gives me the chills because it's sort of like,
17:52
SPEAKER_02: do you know what you agreed to?
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what you signed?
17:55
SPEAKER_02: A lot of people will go on there and get an NDA.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: And then they come back to me and say,
17:59
SPEAKER_02: oh,
18:00
SPEAKER_02: by the way,
18:00
SPEAKER_02: several years ago,
18:01
SPEAKER_02: I lost a client because all of the IP that I thought I had rights to,
18:08
SPEAKER_02: I didn't have rights to because I didn't know what I was signing.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: So I know we're gonna get into IP specifically on a subsequent question,
18:16
SPEAKER_02: but my advice,
18:19
SPEAKER_02: and this is something that I would say,
18:21
SPEAKER_02: knowing what I know as a lawyer,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: and truthfully and honestly,
18:27
There are very few instances where I would advise a client to draft or enter
18:33
intoa
18:33
contract without an attorney drafting and or reviewing that contract so
18:39
thatyou
18:40
SPEAKER_02: understand what risks are there.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: There are provisions that if they're in a contract are not enforceable,
18:49
SPEAKER_02: meaning there may be a scenario where you've agreed to something.
18:52
SPEAKER_02: You think it's perfectly fine because the other party has to agree to it.
18:56
And they have to perform to it only to find out later that it's void in
18:59
California
19:00
SPEAKER_02: because California has a law against that particular provision.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: So general rule of thumb for me is always have a lawyer.
19:11
SPEAKER_02: Lawyers are not always affordable, as I am very well aware of.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: There are organizations that you can connect with that are
19:20
SPEAKER_02: will help you find a lawyer who can be affordable.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Some of them offer free services for some amount of hours.
19:28
I work,
19:28
for example,
19:29
with the Sacramento MBDA,
19:30
the Minority Business Development Agency.
19:33
And any member of the MBDA,
19:35
Sacramento MBDA,
19:36
can get three hours of free service by me for free.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: So there are organizations that can help.
19:45
And going without a lawyer because you can't afford it is,
19:49
in my opinion,
19:49
kindof
19:51
SPEAKER_02: Double whammy, right?
19:52
SPEAKER_02: Because not only can she not afford a lawyer,
19:55
but you also are potentially taking on liability that you don't understand,
19:59
SPEAKER_02: which can cause you more harm later on.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's that's great.
20:02
And I think that's probably one of the best answers I've ever heard about the
20:06
why
20:07
SPEAKER_00: between the two and the difference between the two,
20:09
SPEAKER_00: because,
20:09
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
20:09
SPEAKER_00: sure,
20:09
SPEAKER_00: it's easy people.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know.
20:11
AI has definitely changed the playing field in terms of us creating content
20:16
inall
20:16
SPEAKER_00: different manners now,
20:18
SPEAKER_00: including,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: legal people feeling like,
20:20
SPEAKER_00: hey,
20:21
SPEAKER_00: I've got a lawyer.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: It's this AI thing and it just spit out a great document.
20:25
But the fact that if you don't know what you're signing or you don't know what
20:27
you created,
20:29
Not to mention the fact that AI gets things wrong,
20:32
you know,
20:32
still plenty of time.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: So that's a great, great explanation there.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: I want to jump to terms of service,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: TOS,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: because I think this is an area,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: another area,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: that kind of feeds into this.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: You know,
20:46
SPEAKER_00: we as e-commerce entrepreneurs,
20:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:49
alotoftimesweseethislinkatthebottomofasitethatsaysTermsofService
20:54
SPEAKER_00: TOS and we don't even know what it is.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes if we're on a platform like Shopify,
21:01
SPEAKER_00: we can generate it using their template system.
21:05
We can generate a TOS because we were told that that's what we need to do.
21:09
I guess what I want to know is,
21:10
first of all,
21:11
what are the terms of service?
21:15
And how should an e-commerce entrepreneur effectively use terms of service
21:19
for their business?
21:21
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: So terms of service are a contract.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: Typically,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: when you hear the word terms or conditions,
21:30
that usually means that there's a contract that is being at least set forth.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: for parties to agree to.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: With respect to a website, you typically have the terms.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: And if anybody's interested in seeing mine,
21:43
SPEAKER_02: I have mine,
21:44
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:44
SPEAKER_02: transparency,
21:45
SPEAKER_02: I have my terms online for everybody to see.
21:48
It's if you were to engage with me as a client,
21:51
those are the terms that you would agree to.
21:54
And you can kind of get a sense of what is in my terms that would apply to a legal practice.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: And it's enigmatechlegal.com.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: Tech being T-E-C-H, so enigma, T-E-C-H, legal.com.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: We'll put that in the show notes too.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: We'll make sure that's in the show notes.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so what does that mean?
22:15
SPEAKER_02: So typically when you say,
22:17
SPEAKER_02: and this will be in your terms of service typically,
22:21
SPEAKER_02: or maybe in a checkbox when you sign up to get access to the website,
22:27
but it'll say by accessing this website or by reviewing or taking advantage
22:32
ofthe
22:32
SPEAKER_02: services provided by us,
22:34
SPEAKER_02: you are agreeing to these terms of service.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: And that binds the party.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: So it's a contract that you are agreeing to,
22:43
SPEAKER_02: meaning that there are rights and obligations that the business,
22:47
SPEAKER_02: your e-commerce business,
22:49
is agreeing to with respect to each user who is also agreeing to those terms.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: So typically,
22:57
ThewaythatIgoaboutgettingsortofthetermstoapplytoaclientisIsend
23:03
SPEAKER_02: out a really short one sentence engagement form that says,
23:07
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:08
SPEAKER_02: I have read the terms of service available at blah,
23:12
SPEAKER_02: blah,
23:13
SPEAKER_02: blah.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: And I agree and understand what they mean, essentially.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: And then the when the party signed that engagement form,
23:23
SPEAKER_02: it becomes a contract between me and the client.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: Those terms kick in and are binding on the parties,
23:31
SPEAKER_02: meaning that what it says in there,
23:33
SPEAKER_02: what it says that Enigma Tech Legal has to do with respect to the client,
23:38
SPEAKER_02: with respect to confidentiality,
23:40
SPEAKER_02: with respect to data collection,
23:43
SPEAKER_02: data use,
23:43
SPEAKER_02: and we'll get into the privacy policy later.
23:46
ButIamagreeingthatI'mgoingtodothethingsthatarestatedthataremy
23:52
SPEAKER_02: obligation in the terms of service.
23:55
What the client is agreeing to is they're saying anything that the terms of
23:59
service
24:00
SPEAKER_02: says that the client needs to do or is obligated to do,
24:04
they're legally bound by those terms and conditions as well or terms of service.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: So what does that mean?
24:10
SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to be legally bound?
24:12
SPEAKER_02: It means that if I don't do what's in the terms of service,
24:18
SPEAKER_02: then the client who's the counterparty
24:21
SPEAKER_02: can effectively seek remedy, meaning that they can go to a court.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get into disputes a little bit later.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: There are ways you can massage how that process of disputes works,
24:34
SPEAKER_02: but they can say,
24:34
SPEAKER_02: hey,
24:34
SPEAKER_02: Damien,
24:35
SPEAKER_02: you didn't do X,
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Y,
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Z.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: The contract says that you were supposed to do X,
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Y,
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Z,
24:40
SPEAKER_02: and I was hurt,
24:41
SPEAKER_02: I was harmed by your failure to do X,
24:44
SPEAKER_02: Y,
24:44
SPEAKER_02: Z,
24:45
SPEAKER_02: and you owe me now for that damage that you had caused.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: The other side,
24:51
SPEAKER_02: of course,
24:52
is the client doesn't do what they're supposed to do under the terms of service,
24:56
SPEAKER_02: and I can now hold the client legally bound,
24:59
SPEAKER_02: meaning I can seek legal,
25:02
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:03
kind of a court order or a judgment against that client if it goes to court,
25:09
SPEAKER_02: which there's a whole process that lawyers,
25:12
SPEAKER_02: a good lawyer,
25:14
will try to kind of get you to resolve a dispute before it gets to that stage.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: But that's sort of the gist of it.
25:22
That's what the terms of service effectively mean with respect to you and
25:28
your
25:29
SPEAKER_02: website's users or your service's users.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: Now, how you go about developing those terms of service is an art.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: I've practiced for over 14 years.
25:43
Contracts are pretty much what I've spent my entire career doing on a daily basis.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: terms of service,
25:50
SPEAKER_02: again,
25:50
SPEAKER_02: it's a contract,
25:51
SPEAKER_02: so I know what can go in a contract,
25:54
SPEAKER_02: how it should be drafted,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: how detailed it needs to be,
25:57
howvagueitneedstobeorcouldbetomakesurethatthepartiesareboth
26:05
comfortable with what their respective obligations are so that they can
26:08
perform to them.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: There's a whole other section of the law, and it's not really
26:13
SPEAKER_02: Always need to be a lawyer doing it, but it's compliance.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: And compliance,
26:17
SPEAKER_02: we could have a whole separate call on,
26:19
SPEAKER_02: but it's basically how do you,
26:21
SPEAKER_02: as a business,
26:22
comply with the various legal obligations that are imposed on it by virtue of
26:29
the
26:30
SPEAKER_02: contracts that you enter into,
26:31
SPEAKER_02: the laws that apply to your business,
26:33
SPEAKER_02: the regulations that apply to your business,
26:35
SPEAKER_02: and so on.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: And when you deal with contracts,
26:39
SPEAKER_02: the reason,
26:40
SPEAKER_02: again,
26:40
why I always recommend that you use a lawyer before you enter into a contract
26:45
isso
26:47
that the lawyer can ensure that you understand that you could comply with the
26:51
terms
26:51
of that contract so that you don't create a scenario where there's a dispute
26:55
inthe
26:56
SPEAKER_02: first place.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: Disputes are expensive.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: You could easily lose a client forever.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: Um,
27:01
SPEAKER_02: and if you had known what you were agreeing to,
27:04
SPEAKER_02: um,
27:04
SPEAKER_02: and knew how to comply with the terms,
27:07
SPEAKER_02: um,
27:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:08
SPEAKER_02: that makes it a lot easier on everybody.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: Um,
27:11
SPEAKER_02: that's the best defense,
27:12
SPEAKER_02: by the way,
27:12
SPEAKER_02: if somebody says you breached the contract,
27:14
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
27:14
SPEAKER_02: nope,
27:15
SPEAKER_02: I complied with it.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: And here's why.
27:17
Um,
27:17
and a lawyer can also help you,
27:18
um,
27:19
you know,
27:19
see if that's a valid argument.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: Um,
27:23
SPEAKER_02: I think that,
27:24
SPEAKER_02: oh,
27:25
SPEAKER_02: in terms of,
27:26
SPEAKER_02: um,
27:27
SPEAKER_02: sorry,
27:27
SPEAKER_02: you had asked if,
27:28
SPEAKER_02: if I believe you had asked if,
27:29
SPEAKER_02: if
27:30
SPEAKER_02: getting terms of service and when you should kind of get them and,
27:33
SPEAKER_02: um,
27:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:34
SPEAKER_02: online,
27:34
SPEAKER_02: uh,
27:35
SPEAKER_02: leveraging,
27:36
SPEAKER_02: for example,
27:37
SPEAKER_02: a competitor or another business who is kind of in your space.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, lawyers do that all the time.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: I probably shouldn't say that out loud,
27:45
SPEAKER_02: but we do leverage,
27:46
SPEAKER_02: um,
27:47
SPEAKER_02: uh,
27:47
SPEAKER_02: other people's,
27:48
SPEAKER_02: um,
27:49
SPEAKER_02: terms of service.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: And it makes sense to,
27:51
SPEAKER_02: I think,
27:51
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:52
SPEAKER_02: just from an efficiency standpoint,
27:54
SPEAKER_02: it isn't worth,
27:56
SPEAKER_02: um,
27:57
Any client's money in most scenarios for a lawyer to draft terms of service
28:04
from
28:05
SPEAKER_02: scratch doesn't make any sense.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: It takes way too much time.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: Lawyers typically bill by the hour.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: It is not a good idea.
28:15
If you have a lawyer who is drafting things from scratch,
28:19
maybe you find another lawyer.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: What I typically do,
28:24
SPEAKER_02: and I've had clients who've actually recommended that we do this,
28:28
is they'll find something that's relatively close to what their business is,
28:35
SPEAKER_02: and they will say,
28:36
SPEAKER_02: let's start from there.
28:38
That'll get us 80% of the way there,
28:40
and then send it to me,
28:41
and I'll say,
28:42
okay.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: One thing to keep in mind is when you do that,
28:46
SPEAKER_02: you're taking a document,
28:48
SPEAKER_02: a terms of service that a lawyer likely
28:52
SPEAKER_02: created with respect to that e-commerce company.
28:57
Tothinkthatyoucouldthentakeitwholesaleandapplyittoyoure-commerce
29:01
SPEAKER_02: company is you're not really leveraging that lawyer's expertise.
29:08
And a lot of people think that if they do that,
29:10
oh,
29:10
free legal services,
29:11
right?
29:11
SPEAKER_02: I just got a free terms of service.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, but that was designed for this client.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: There may be important distinctions that
29:18
Your lawyer would have a fiduciary duty to determine applies to your
29:23
businessand
29:24
SPEAKER_02: then make those tweaks.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Again,
29:26
SPEAKER_02: one of the biggest things that I tell Cecilia,
29:29
SPEAKER_02: my employee,
29:31
SPEAKER_02: this a lot is what is in a contract.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: What you put in a contract needs to be true and accurate.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: So when you have something that's,
29:41
let's say it's a privacy policy or it's a confidentiality provision that says,
29:46
I won't use your confidential information for any purpose outside of
29:51
performingto
29:52
SPEAKER_02: these terms of service,
29:54
SPEAKER_02: that needs to be true,
29:55
SPEAKER_02: right?
29:56
Because if it's not true and you don't do that,
29:59
that's breach of contract.
30:00
That's when you are potentially liable to the other party for not doing what
30:04
you're
30:04
SPEAKER_02: supposed to do.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: So, you know,
30:08
SPEAKER_02: So usually what a client,
30:11
SPEAKER_02: a lawyer client,
30:12
SPEAKER_02: like somebody in-house,
30:13
SPEAKER_02: I have clients who I do fractional counsel for.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: They have in-house counsel.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: They might say,
30:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:19
SPEAKER_02: hey,
30:19
SPEAKER_02: Damien,
30:20
SPEAKER_02: here's a terms of service from another company that looks pretty good.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: I haven't reviewed it very thoroughly, but can we start with that?
30:28
SPEAKER_02: I'll say, sure.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: You know,
30:29
SPEAKER_02: I'll take that and then I'll read through everything,
30:32
make sure that whatever is in there is true and accurate with respect to my clients.
30:37
AndthengivethatthentomyclientforthemtousefortheirspecificSaaS
30:43
SPEAKER_02: company or e-commerce company.
30:45
A lot of information there and certainly willing to kind of go into any more
30:51
detail
30:52
SPEAKER_02: if you'd like.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: how does, is that responsive?
30:55
SPEAKER_00: That is absolutely responsive.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I have now,
30:58
SPEAKER_00: I understand it better than I ever have because,
31:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:01
SPEAKER_00: it is honestly,
31:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: even in my,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: in my,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: in our business,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: it's just a link,
31:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:07
SPEAKER_00: in many ways down at the bottom of the site,
31:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:09
SPEAKER_00: or it's something,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: on the checkout page where somebody has to agree to it.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: And I will say that most people probably don't read them, right?
31:18
SPEAKER_00: They do not read the terms of service.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're all, we all joke about the tech companies and,
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:23
When you Apple updates their their terms of service or terms of condition,
31:28
terms and conditions.
31:29
And by the way,
31:29
is there a difference between the two terms of service and terms and conditions?
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Same thing.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: Same thing.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: All right.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: So we kind of just gloss over them, right?
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, they are truly a contract.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: And I have heard many situations where they have come into play,
31:42
especially with big companies and and their consumers and things like that.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you explaining that, you know, in detail.
31:49
one other area which again is a link at the bottom of the site in many
31:53
situations
31:54
is the privacy policy right this is another area that you know what you know
31:59
what
32:00
issoagaini'llaskthesamequestionwhatisyouknowiiknowthatyouknowi
32:06
think we all understand the word privacy uh we understand the word policy but
32:09
put
32:09
togetherwhatistheprivacypolicyandhowdoesitcomeintoplayandhow
32:15
SPEAKER_00: concerned should we be about it
32:18
SPEAKER_02: So again,
32:19
SPEAKER_02: like terms of service or terms and conditions or whatever,
32:23
SPEAKER_02: a privacy policy is a document that explains what you're doing with the
32:34
SPEAKER_02: confidential information with respect to a user of your website.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: So let's just give you an example in my scenario.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: So I have a privacy policy.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: Again, it's on my website.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: Feel free to take a look at it.
32:48
Don't copy it wholesale and put it on your website because it's a different
32:51
beast altogether.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: But I'll tell you,
32:54
SPEAKER_02: I went to other law firms,
32:56
SPEAKER_02: e-commerce sites or websites,
32:59
andIlookedatavarietyofthemandIsortofkindofmassagedthemtogetherto
33:03
SPEAKER_02: create mine.
33:04
I didn't just sit there and draft word for word from scratch and from memory.
33:09
I don't know any lawyer who can really do that in any case,
33:13
not without some time.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: But the privacy policy sets forth a whole lot of things.
33:21
And from a legal requirement perspective,
33:24
it has to have a variety of things.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: And the privacy policy generally,
33:33
SPEAKER_02: I like to say to clients that it provides the what,
33:37
SPEAKER_02: when,
33:37
SPEAKER_02: where,
33:37
SPEAKER_02: and why.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: with respect to confidential information of your user.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
33:43
SPEAKER_02: So confidential information is information that's confidential, i.e.
33:47
SPEAKER_02: information that's not publicly out there already.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: If you post,
33:52
SPEAKER_02: for example,
33:53
SPEAKER_02: your birth date on,
33:57
SPEAKER_02: I guess,
33:57
SPEAKER_02: formerly MySpace,
33:58
SPEAKER_02: which was,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: I think,
33:59
SPEAKER_02: public without you having to log in,
34:02
SPEAKER_02: and that's displayed,
34:03
SPEAKER_02: that no longer becomes confidential information.
34:06
SPEAKER_02: So you can't sort of argue that if somebody
34:08
SPEAKER_02: discloses your date of birth, they violated your confidentiality.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: So when you're dealing with a privacy policy,
34:17
SPEAKER_02: the who,
34:18
SPEAKER_02: what,
34:18
SPEAKER_02: where,
34:18
SPEAKER_02: when,
34:19
SPEAKER_02: where,
34:19
SPEAKER_02: why,
34:20
SPEAKER_02: or the what,
34:20
SPEAKER_02: when,
34:20
SPEAKER_02: when,
34:21
SPEAKER_02: where,
34:21
SPEAKER_02: why is sort of like,
34:23
SPEAKER_02: okay,
34:23
SPEAKER_02: the who,
34:24
SPEAKER_02: that's kind of obvious,
34:25
SPEAKER_02: right?
34:26
SPEAKER_02: You've got the two parties,
34:29
SPEAKER_02: you,
34:29
SPEAKER_02: the e-commerce company,
34:31
SPEAKER_02: and the other person,
34:33
SPEAKER_02: which is the user or visitor of your website.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: The what,
34:39
SPEAKER_02: What are you doing?
34:40
SPEAKER_02: You are collecting certain information from them,
34:42
or you may collect certain information from them that may be confidential or personal,
34:47
SPEAKER_02: the way that the CCPA,
34:49
SPEAKER_02: the California Consumer Rights Protection Act and the CPRA.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: We'll get into that a little bit, I think, in this conversation for sure.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: But the gist is it's information that is personal to an individual.
35:07
date of birth,
35:08
social security number,
35:09
my ethnicity,
35:11
my home address,
35:12
my phone number,
35:13
right?
35:13
SPEAKER_02: Information that I,
35:15
SPEAKER_02: as a lawyer,
35:16
SPEAKER_02: typically get from my clients because I want to know who my clients are.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: I want to know that they are, you know, who they say they are.
35:24
I might have their driver's license,
35:25
you know,
35:26
number and expiration date.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: I might have that.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: I will have their date of birth.
35:31
SPEAKER_02: I will have their name.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: Their phone number, email address, so on.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: Things that can identify that individual.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: So my privacy policy,
35:40
SPEAKER_02: when I collect that information,
35:43
SPEAKER_02: I am disclosing to my clients or prospective clients,
35:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm getting this data from you.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: And it might include payment information,
35:53
SPEAKER_02: your credit card number,
35:54
SPEAKER_02: things that can be linked back to you.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: And so the privacy policy will set forth the who, right?
36:02
SPEAKER_02: The what, what am I collecting?
36:05
SPEAKER_02: The why is why am I collecting this stuff, right?
36:08
SPEAKER_02: Why do I need your date of birth?
36:10
SPEAKER_02: Why do I need your phone number?
36:11
SPEAKER_02: And it's easy for some things.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: I need your phone number so I can communicate with you, right?
36:15
SPEAKER_02: You're my client.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: I need your email address so I can send you documents from time to time.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: I need your date of birth for this reason.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: I need your...
36:24
SPEAKER_02: your driver's license for identification purposes.
36:26
I need your social security number for identification purposes or for tax
36:33
reporting or whatnot.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: So that's the why.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: Why are you doing this?
36:42
SPEAKER_02: The when,
36:43
SPEAKER_02: now,
36:44
SPEAKER_02: typically,
36:45
SPEAKER_02: or I may,
36:45
SPEAKER_02: which means I might be asking you for this at some future date.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: Usually when I initially take on a client,
36:51
SPEAKER_02: I send them an intake form,
36:53
SPEAKER_02: have them complete all the information,
36:55
SPEAKER_02: have them send a copy of their driver's license,
36:57
SPEAKER_02: and then that kind of goes into a client management platform.
37:02
And then that's kind of when I have the confidence that this person is who they
37:05
say
37:05
SPEAKER_02: they are,
37:06
SPEAKER_02: and we start to engage.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of the gist,
37:11
SPEAKER_02: is you're kind of explaining the who,
37:12
SPEAKER_02: what,
37:12
SPEAKER_02: when,
37:13
SPEAKER_02: where,
37:14
SPEAKER_02: and why of data collection or information gathering.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Now,
37:19
SPEAKER_02: I have to say,
37:20
SPEAKER_02: so I am a certified privacy,
37:24
SPEAKER_02: information privacy professional and information privacy manager from the
37:28
SPEAKER_02: International Association of Privacy Professionals,
37:31
SPEAKER_02: all sorts of acronyms.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: We live in a world of acronyms.
37:36
And so I do regularly advise clients with respect to the CCPA and the CPRA and
37:44
what they mean.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: And I have to tell you, even as a lawyer, this is the book that I use.
37:48
SPEAKER_02: It's a desktop manual, and it's in layman's terms.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: And I actually recommend,
37:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:56
it's called California Consumer Privacy Act and the California Privacy
37:59
Rights Act.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: um, by David Zetoony, Z-E-T-O-O-N-Y.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: I got it on Amazon.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: It's about 80 bucks or so.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: Um,
38:07
SPEAKER_02: but it's a handy,
38:09
SPEAKER_02: um,
38:10
SPEAKER_02: desk reference for,
38:11
SPEAKER_02: uh,
38:12
SPEAKER_02: anybody,
38:12
SPEAKER_02: even non-lawyers,
38:13
SPEAKER_02: um,
38:13
SPEAKER_02: to have handy so that they could kind of review them.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's like, what do I need a privacy policy?
38:20
SPEAKER_02: Am I covered by the CCPA and the CPRA?
38:22
SPEAKER_02: Um,
38:23
and there are threshold questions that will get you there that are in the book
38:26
and
38:26
SPEAKER_02: they're in the law.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Um,
38:28
SPEAKER_02: But it's complicated.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it seems complicated.
38:32
I guess let me ask you,
38:34
I mean,
38:34
you know,
38:35
that book particularly references California.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Now, does it differ from state to state, privacy, policy, rules and laws?
38:42
I mean,
38:42
if I'm in Florida,
38:44
am I worrying about something different than California?
38:47
So the way that I recommend in all,
38:52
most,
38:53
I'll say not all,
38:54
the lawyers rarely say all.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: Most of the larger sophisticated e-commerce companies,
39:01
SPEAKER_02: they have the ability to hire teams of lawyers to do just exactly that.
39:08
Thegeneralruleofthumbistohaveaprivacypolicythatisthemoststrictof
39:18
SPEAKER_02: all of the states –
39:20
SPEAKER_02: In which you do business.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: So if I just go for me,
39:23
SPEAKER_02: I mentioned this earlier on the podcast,
39:26
SPEAKER_02: I can support clients from pretty much any state.
39:29
SPEAKER_02: So if I have a client who's reaching out to me from Texas and says,
39:32
SPEAKER_02: hey,
39:33
SPEAKER_02: I want you to advise on my privacy policy.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: First question is, what do you do?
39:37
SPEAKER_02: Right.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: Who are you collecting information from?
39:39
SPEAKER_02: If you're collecting information from from California residents.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Right.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: Like if you're selling to California residents or if you're collecting,
39:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:49
SPEAKER_02: you're taking if I'm taking on a client,
39:51
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:52
SPEAKER_02: if I were in Texas,
39:53
SPEAKER_02: vice versa,
39:54
you kind of want to operate at the most strict level of what laws might apply.
40:00
And the CCPA and the CPRA out of California with respect to the United States
40:05
are
40:06
SPEAKER_02: the strictest at the moment.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: And so usually if you have some
40:13
a CCPA and CPRA compliant privacy policy for your entire website and you're
40:21
only
40:21
SPEAKER_02: operating out of the United States,
40:24
that's going to get you 99.9% of the way there because you're operating to the
40:28
most
40:28
strict version of the state laws that apply with respect to privacy policies
40:33
inthe
40:33
SPEAKER_02: United States.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: This is true for the GDPR, too, out of Europe.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: So if you're a global company,
40:40
if you're an e-commerce company that sells things in Europe and the United States,
40:46
SPEAKER_02: you might do a little bit of a balance.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: But the GDPR is right now with the CPRA,
40:52
SPEAKER_02: the CPRA and CCPA are getting pretty close to the strictness of the GDPR.
40:57
But the GDPR is still,
40:58
I would say,
41:00
more strict with respect to data protection.
41:05
such that an international e-commerce company would probably want to
41:11
performor
41:12
SPEAKER_02: create its policies with respect to the GDPR,
41:18
SPEAKER_02: and that will cover them in California as well,
41:21
SPEAKER_02: generally.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: But it's complicated.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: Like I said,
41:25
SPEAKER_02: this is something that,
41:26
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:27
SPEAKER_02: it's tough to go through,
41:30
SPEAKER_02: and,
41:30
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:31
SPEAKER_02: it requires –
41:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:33
SPEAKER_02: some time to digest and to understand and sift through,
41:38
SPEAKER_02: for which,
41:39
SPEAKER_02: again,
41:40
lawyers may be a better use of your money and your resources than to try to kind
41:45
of
41:47
SPEAKER_02: try to absorb it all yourself.
41:49
SPEAKER_02: I like to say,
41:50
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:50
SPEAKER_02: sometimes,
41:51
SPEAKER_02: and I know clients do this a lot,
41:53
sometimes it's good to hire a lawyer so you have somebody to blame if
41:57
something
41:57
SPEAKER_02: goes wrong.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: It's coming from a lawyer, coming from a lawyer, by the way.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: The whipping child of medieval times.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: Right.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: It's like sometimes you just need somebody to blame.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: And,
42:11
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:11
itjustimaginesyougetanNDAoffofchatGPTandexecuteitandsomebodysues
42:18
SPEAKER_02: you for and it requires,
42:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:21
SPEAKER_02: basically you have to pay out X amount of dollars.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: You have to shut your business because you violated a contract.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: Um,
42:28
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:29
SPEAKER_02: it's one thing to say,
42:30
SPEAKER_02: well,
42:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:31
IfoundthisonchatGPTandIsigneditwithoutknowingwhatIwasdoingversus
42:36
SPEAKER_02: Damien drafted it for me and I signed it.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, and he messed up, right.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: That's,
42:42
SPEAKER_02: that's a different sort of,
42:44
SPEAKER_02: um,
42:45
SPEAKER_02: and,
42:45
SPEAKER_02: and the reasons why you also want,
42:47
SPEAKER_02: uh,
42:47
SPEAKER_02: you might also want a lawyer just for,
42:49
SPEAKER_02: um,
42:50
SPEAKER_02: even for optics.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: I, one thing I tell clients and clients notice, I think right away is,
42:54
SPEAKER_02: is when you have a lawyer,
42:55
SPEAKER_02: once they bring the lawyer in and say,
42:57
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:57
SPEAKER_02: a small business says,
42:59
SPEAKER_02: hey,
43:00
SPEAKER_02: talk to Damien.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: He's my attorney.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: The conversation changes, right?
43:03
It's like now if they were trying to take advantage of that small business,
43:07
they stop.
43:08
SPEAKER_02: You know, they've said, okay, hold on.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: You know, what am I saying that can get me in trouble now?
43:14
SPEAKER_02: You know, I can't bully this person anymore.
43:16
And so there are a lot of sort of,
43:18
you know,
43:19
benefitstohavinganattorneythataren'tjust
43:22
SPEAKER_02: the services that you're providing.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: It is kind of having somebody to protect you,
43:26
SPEAKER_02: which is what attorneys do and should be doing,
43:30
SPEAKER_02: right?
43:30
SPEAKER_02: They protect your interests.
43:31
They make sure that you are able to enter into contracts and to understand
43:37
what
43:37
SPEAKER_02: they're doing,
43:38
SPEAKER_02: that you don't subject yourself to liability inadvertently.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: Um,
43:42
SPEAKER_02: and,
43:43
SPEAKER_02: and all that good stuff,
43:44
SPEAKER_02: but,
43:44
SPEAKER_02: but yes,
43:45
SPEAKER_02: back to your basic question is,
43:47
SPEAKER_02: is,
43:48
SPEAKER_02: um,
43:48
SPEAKER_02: privacy laws,
43:49
SPEAKER_02: uh,
43:50
SPEAKER_02: typically the best,
43:51
SPEAKER_02: um,
43:51
SPEAKER_02: path forward is to operate to the strictest jurisdiction,
43:55
SPEAKER_02: um,
43:56
SPEAKER_02: uh,
43:57
SPEAKER_02: in which you're doing business.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: OK, that's that's phenomenal, phenomenal advice.
44:01
And,
44:02
you know,
44:02
I remember back to when GDPR,
44:04
you know,
44:05
first became a thing.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: There was panic,
44:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:08
SPEAKER_00: across,
44:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:09
the e-commerce landscape for all these companies that were operating and
44:13
companies
44:14
SPEAKER_00: that were not operating because they didn't,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: nobody really understood,
44:16
SPEAKER_00: like,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: do we have to be
44:18
aware that people can pull up our website in Europe,
44:20
but we don't sell there.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: So there were all these issues.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: And,
44:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:24
Ithinkthisworldisgoingtocontinuetogetmorecomplexwhenitcomesto
44:28
SPEAKER_00: privacy policies,
44:29
SPEAKER_00: because there's a lot of data out there and there's,
44:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:33
SPEAKER_00: there's a and I think,
44:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:34
it's a good thing to protect the data and tell people what you're asking for
44:38
and
44:38
SPEAKER_00: just make it make it clear as clear as possible.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: I want to jump to another topic.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: And this is, you know, another area that gets a lot of, you know,
44:48
I don't understand what I need to do here,
44:50
and that's around intellectual property and IP.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: How can entrepreneurs protect their products?
44:59
Maybe it's something they've created,
45:02
their designs,
45:03
maybe they're selling virtual wallpapers.
45:07
uh and their content which so many e-commerce businesses now are also
45:12
turninginto
45:12
content production uh um companies because they have to produce all this
45:17
content
45:17
for social media but also for their internal sites what you know what's
45:22
happening
45:22
in the ip world and what should if i'm an e-commerce entrepreneur what should
45:26
ibe
45:26
worriedaboutwhatshouldipayattentiontowhenshouldicontactalawyer
45:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: So, um, that's a great question.
45:32
And I do want to sort of caveat,
45:34
um,
45:34
my response that,
45:35
um,
45:36
I'm not an IP lawyer.
45:37
There are certain areas of the law IP being one of them,
45:40
um,
45:40
that are highly complex.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh,
45:42
SPEAKER_02: and,
45:42
SPEAKER_02: uh,
45:43
SPEAKER_02: usually,
45:43
SPEAKER_02: you know,
45:43
SPEAKER_02: um,
45:45
you have dedicated professionals who practice just IP law for their entire careers.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, other areas of law are like tax law, super complex.
45:53
The tax code is,
45:54
is,
45:54
is,
45:54
is,
45:55
is,
45:55
is just,
45:56
it's hard to digest even as a lawyer.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: Um,
45:59
SPEAKER_02: And,
46:00
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:01
SPEAKER_02: so with that,
46:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:04
you do have to understand that you probably do have a lot of intellectual
46:08
property
46:08
SPEAKER_02: in what you're doing for your business.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: You know,
46:11
SPEAKER_02: taking my lemonade stand,
46:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:16
SPEAKER_02: example,
46:16
SPEAKER_02: I go out front and I make a certain like,
46:19
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:20
SPEAKER_02: I have a logo,
46:21
SPEAKER_02: right?
46:21
SPEAKER_02: It's like a, I don't know, just
46:25
SPEAKER_02: a person drinking a lemonade and it's a cartoon character.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: And that's like my, my, my logo, um, and my brand.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I drew it myself or I had somebody draw it for me.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, that is, is intellectual property, right?
46:38
SPEAKER_02: I created something.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: It was intellectual art.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: Um,
46:41
SPEAKER_02: and I'm using it for my business so that the LLC,
46:44
SPEAKER_02: assuming that I formed an LLC for it,
46:46
SPEAKER_02: um,
46:47
SPEAKER_02: now owns that intellectual property.
46:49
SPEAKER_02: I want to protect that intellectual property.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: Um,
46:52
SPEAKER_02: And how do you do that?
46:54
SPEAKER_02: Typically,
46:55
unless you enter into a contract that assigns rights to use that
47:00
intellectual property,
47:01
SPEAKER_02: you don't get rid of the intellectual property.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: It's yours.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: So how do you protect it?
47:06
SPEAKER_02: You want to make sure that,
47:07
SPEAKER_02: again,
47:07
SPEAKER_02: going back to the contracts that you enter into,
47:11
SPEAKER_02: make sure you understand the IP provisions.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: Most
47:15
SPEAKER_02: So throughout my career,
47:17
SPEAKER_02: I've supported a lot of SaaS companies,
47:19
SPEAKER_02: software as a service companies,
47:21
SPEAKER_02: banking as a service company,
47:23
SPEAKER_02: of course,
47:23
SPEAKER_02: Visa.
47:25
Andinprettymucheverycontractthatyouhavewithapartnerwhoisdoing
47:32
SPEAKER_02: something with you,
47:33
SPEAKER_02: your business,
47:34
SPEAKER_02: there's going to be some intellectual property language in there.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: Either it's going to be a very straightforward contract,
47:41
disclaimer that no IP is being assigned or transferred by virtue of this contract,
47:47
SPEAKER_02: which again,
47:47
SPEAKER_02: it's not terribly necessary,
47:49
butyoumightwanttohaveitinacontractjusttobesupersafethatyou'renot
47:53
SPEAKER_02: inadvertently giving away rights to your IP.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: But more likely,
47:57
you're going to have a very well negotiated provision of IP that carefully among,
48:06
SPEAKER_02: ideally among lawyers,
48:08
SPEAKER_02: carefully reflect
48:11
the desire of each party and the willingness of each party to provide certain rights,
48:20
SPEAKER_02: usage rights to another party.
48:23
SPEAKER_02: One example that I'm,
48:25
SPEAKER_02: let me see if I can do this in a confidential way,
48:29
SPEAKER_02: but well,
48:30
SPEAKER_02: I'll just give you an example of a SaaS company,
48:33
SPEAKER_02: right?
48:33
SaaS company is entering into a partnership agreement with another SaaS company.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: And
48:38
SPEAKER_02: They're going to be,
48:39
SPEAKER_02: one SaaS company,
48:40
SPEAKER_02: we'll call it Company B,
48:42
is going to be providing services to Company A with respect to lead generation.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: We're going to go out,
48:48
we're going to find leads of potential clients that might be interested in
48:52
your service.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: And as part of that service provision from Company B to Company A,
49:01
SPEAKER_02: we want to be able to use Company A's logo.
49:05
SPEAKER_02: And so we want to be able to say,
49:06
SPEAKER_02: hey,
49:07
SPEAKER_02: we are an authorized partner or referrer of company A.
49:15
And we're authorized by this contract to provide a referral or maybe some
49:21
sortofa
49:21
SPEAKER_02: discount or something to pass those leads on to company A.
49:27
And company A wants to make sure that it doesn't give away its IP
49:32
unnecessarily too much.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: rights or too many rights.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: So what you might have is an intellectual property provision that says,
49:41
SPEAKER_02: we're going to give you a limited worldwide license to use.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: What does a license mean?
49:49
SPEAKER_02: A license is we're giving you the right to use, but not the ownership of
49:56
SPEAKER_02: the IP.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: So you typically see licensing provisions in most SaaS agreements,
50:02
SPEAKER_02: a lot of e-commerce provisions.
50:05
SPEAKER_02: You might have it in your terms of service, right?
50:07
SPEAKER_02: If you're doing business with B2B,
50:13
SPEAKER_02: you might want to have in there that,
50:15
SPEAKER_02: hey,
50:15
just because you're doing business with us doesn't give you the right to use
50:18
our IP.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: If you want
50:21
SPEAKER_02: access to our IP or you want to be able to post our logo on your website,
50:26
SPEAKER_02: you have to get special permission,
50:28
SPEAKER_02: which we usually call prior written consent.
50:31
But long-winded way of saying that to protect your IP,
50:37
you should typically have it in writing.
50:39
And again,
50:40
going back to my,
50:41
you know,
50:41
whatever is in a contract needs to be true and accurate.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: You want to understand what the intellectual property provision says,
50:48
SPEAKER_02: what rights you're giving,
50:50
SPEAKER_02: whether it's a license or ownership right,
50:53
what rights they're giving or that they have so that when you sign and it
50:58
becomesa
51:01
binding contract that you know how to comply with that contract so that what
51:04
you're doing,
51:06
the use of their IP or their logo or something complies with the contract.
51:12
SPEAKER_02: What you don't want to do is
51:14
SPEAKER_02: have a scenario where you have no rights to use another party's IP,
51:20
SPEAKER_02: and you use that logo,
51:24
and then you get potentially a lawsuit against them if there's a claim that
51:30
theuse
51:31
SPEAKER_02: of their logo causes them harm.
51:33
SPEAKER_02: Again,
51:33
SPEAKER_02: it's all about liability,
51:35
SPEAKER_02: protecting that liability,
51:36
SPEAKER_02: making sure that you are operating to your requirements,
51:41
SPEAKER_02: either by contract or by law,
51:43
And that's true with intellectual property as it is with any other legal
51:47
provision
51:48
SPEAKER_02: that you might want to see in a contract.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
51:53
SPEAKER_00: very,
51:53
SPEAKER_00: very helpful information on that,
51:55
SPEAKER_00: because I know that's definitely,
51:56
SPEAKER_00: as we mentioned earlier,
51:57
SPEAKER_00: it's a big area,
51:58
SPEAKER_00: right?
51:59
SPEAKER_00: It's a big area.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: We have a lot.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we actually don't know what we have to protect.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: We don't even know what can be protected.
52:05
AndIthinkthat'spartofthediscoveryprocessistofigureoutwhatcanbe
52:12
SPEAKER_00: protected and what should be protected.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me ask you a question now about
52:17
SPEAKER_00: This is something that I've always been curious about.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: So let's say I've done all the things,
52:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:20
SPEAKER_00: I've got my,
52:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:22
SPEAKER_00: rock solid terms of service.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: I've got my great privacy policy.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: You know,
52:27
I'vegonetherouteoftrademarkingandI'vehiredtheLordtodoallthese
52:30
SPEAKER_00: different things.
52:31
And I've touched on other areas like accessibility and all these other
52:35
thingsthat
52:36
SPEAKER_00: are important.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: but then I get a legal notice where I get a summons of some kind.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: What am I supposed to do?
52:43
SPEAKER_00: Do I need to get a lawyer right away?
52:46
SPEAKER_00: Or is this something that,
52:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
52:48
if I don't have the funds to hire that I want to do a little discovery myself,
52:52
SPEAKER_00: like what,
52:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:53
SPEAKER_00: obviously I read it,
52:54
SPEAKER_00: try to understand it,
52:55
SPEAKER_00: but what's this,
52:56
SPEAKER_00: what is this,
52:57
SPEAKER_00: what are the steps?
52:57
SPEAKER_00: And I hope this never happens to anybody that,
53:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:00
SPEAKER_00: any of our community members,
53:02
SPEAKER_00: but it could,
53:03
SPEAKER_00: it's a reality.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: It could, what do you do?
53:05
SPEAKER_00: What are the steps?
53:06
SPEAKER_02: So typically what you're referring to is,
53:08
SPEAKER_02: um,
53:09
SPEAKER_02: is what we would refer to,
53:10
SPEAKER_02: uh,
53:11
SPEAKER_02: as a demand letter.
53:12
SPEAKER_02: Um,
53:13
SPEAKER_02: and that's,
53:13
SPEAKER_02: that's a demand letter is,
53:14
SPEAKER_02: is a letter by either another party or,
53:17
SPEAKER_02: um,
53:18
SPEAKER_02: uh,
53:19
SPEAKER_02: their lawyer,
53:20
SPEAKER_02: um,
53:20
SPEAKER_02: that,
53:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
53:21
SPEAKER_02: you get it in the mail.
53:22
SPEAKER_02: It says,
53:23
SPEAKER_02: you know,
53:24
SPEAKER_02: you have breached your XYZ contract with us and it caused us,
53:29
SPEAKER_02: um,
53:29
SPEAKER_02: to incur damages or liability.
53:33
SPEAKER_02: And we're hereby demanding that you pay up.
53:36
SPEAKER_02: Um,
53:37
That's the right thing to do,
53:40
I think,
53:42
with lawyers as being the first step.
53:44
It's usually what I advise clients to do if they have a dispute with another
53:48
party
53:48
SPEAKER_02: or one of their customers.
53:50
SPEAKER_02: I'll say, let's send them a demand letter.
53:52
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I send a warning first, followed up by a demand letter.
53:57
SPEAKER_02: And what do you do when you receive that?
53:59
SPEAKER_02: So either if you have a lawyer, you get it into your lawyer's hands ASAP.
54:04
SPEAKER_02: If it's my recommendation to clients...
54:08
SPEAKER_02: is that if there is a reference to counsel or a lawsuit or a threat,
54:17
SPEAKER_02: get it in my hands ASAP so that I can protect my client.
54:20
SPEAKER_02: If I don't know about it, I can't protect my client.
54:24
SPEAKER_02: So that's sort of the first step.
54:28
Ifit'ssentbyalawyerorcounselorit'ssentbyanindividualbutthey're
54:36
SPEAKER_02: threatening legal action,
54:38
SPEAKER_02: Get it into a lawyer's hand.
54:39
SPEAKER_02: The lawyer may say,
54:41
SPEAKER_02: even if a client receives a letter from a customer that says,
54:45
SPEAKER_02: we're threatening all this stuff,
54:47
it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to respond on behalf of the client.
54:50
SPEAKER_02: I might say,
54:51
SPEAKER_02: look,
54:51
SPEAKER_02: let's look at the contract,
54:53
SPEAKER_02: depending on if it's a breach of contract claim,
54:54
SPEAKER_02: which in my practice it most often is.
55:00
SPEAKER_02: You go through and you say, let's look at the contract.
55:04
If you look at my terms and conditions online or my terms of service online,
55:09
you're gonna have a very well thought out dispute process section that says
55:16
the
55:17
SPEAKER_02: parties are agreeing to before they go to court,
55:20
SPEAKER_02: before they go to court and file a lawsuit,
55:23
we're gonna take certain steps to try to resolve the dispute between the two parties.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: So between my client and between myself.
55:30
SPEAKER_02: The first step is let's just talk.
55:33
Sometimes,
55:34
you know,
55:34
you might think,
55:35
oh my God,
55:35
they breached,
55:36
um,
55:37
the contract.
55:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm upset.
55:39
SPEAKER_02: You know,
55:39
SPEAKER_02: I,
55:39
SPEAKER_02: I incurred $10,000 as a result and,
55:42
SPEAKER_02: and I had to pay that,
55:43
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:44
SPEAKER_02: and you get frustrated and you send a demand letter,
55:46
SPEAKER_02: very formal,
55:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
55:47
SPEAKER_02: threatening that I'm going to take you to court.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: And you're just like, hold on, you know, let's, let's sit down.
55:52
SPEAKER_02: Let's get on a call.
55:53
SPEAKER_02: Let's chat this out.
55:54
SPEAKER_02: Maybe, you know, there's a misunderstanding.
55:57
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I do owe $10,000 and I, I'm sorry.
56:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
56:00
SPEAKER_02: And I will pay that to you.
56:01
SPEAKER_02: Um,
56:03
ButalotoftimestheveryfirststepandwhatIhaveinmytermsandconditions
56:08
SPEAKER_02: is that's chat.
56:10
SPEAKER_02: The next step from that is to mediate.
56:13
SPEAKER_02: What does mediate mean?
56:14
SPEAKER_02: It means to usually with the third party,
56:16
SPEAKER_02: you sit down with a mediator,
56:19
SPEAKER_02: somebody who is typically trained to help parties resolve disputes.
56:26
SPEAKER_02: But it really is,
56:26
SPEAKER_02: I used to mediate in law school and it really is kind of sitting there,
56:31
SPEAKER_02: let the parties
56:32
SPEAKER_02: Explain their positions.
56:35
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times people just want to be heard, right?
56:38
I feel like you aren't treating me fairly under the contract and I want to
56:42
speakmy
56:42
SPEAKER_02: mind and I want you to hear it.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: And a mediator will help,
56:47
SPEAKER_02: a good mediator will help kind of keep the tone,
56:51
SPEAKER_02: you know,
56:52
SPEAKER_02: civil,
56:53
SPEAKER_02: really kind of flesh out,
56:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
56:55
what is the ultimate underlying problem and whether the parties can agree to that.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, next step beyond that, let's say that fails.
57:04
So we had a call,
57:05
we had a discussion and they'll be yelling at each other.
57:08
SPEAKER_02: We got a mediator, didn't figure out how to get it to a resolution.
57:12
SPEAKER_02: Um,
57:13
SPEAKER_02: you can go to arbitration,
57:14
SPEAKER_02: which is,
57:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:15
SPEAKER_02: I,
57:15
SPEAKER_02: uh,
57:16
SPEAKER_02: have in my contract,
57:17
SPEAKER_02: you go to arbitration,
57:18
which is a private decision maker that the parties agree to contractually,
57:22
SPEAKER_02: um,
57:23
SPEAKER_02: to allow that,
57:24
SPEAKER_02: um,
57:24
SPEAKER_02: third party to make a decision,
57:26
SPEAKER_02: uh,
57:27
SPEAKER_02: based on what
57:28
SPEAKER_02: he or she knows of the dispute.
57:31
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like,
57:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:33
SPEAKER_02: a court,
57:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:35
SPEAKER_02: a judge,
57:36
SPEAKER_02: but it's a private,
57:37
SPEAKER_02: it's not within the court system.
57:39
SPEAKER_02: It's before you get to court.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: And then you could take a couple of things.
57:42
SPEAKER_02: You could say the arbitrator's decision is final and binding,
57:47
illegally binding on the party such that they can't just take it to court
57:51
without
57:51
SPEAKER_02: getting it possibly thrown out.
57:54
SPEAKER_02: And or you can say that they,
57:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:56
SPEAKER_02: if it fails in arbitration or the parties,
57:58
SPEAKER_02: you know,
57:59
feel like they were unfairly treated or something that then you can
58:02
subsequentlygo
58:02
SPEAKER_02: to court.
58:03
But usually arbitration is in lieu of the right to file a lawsuit in court.
58:09
SPEAKER_02: But disputes, it's a process.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: There's no real sort of, you know.
58:17
SPEAKER_02: Ideal way to handle it.
58:19
I personally like the structure that I advise clients on all the time is to
58:25
start
58:26
SPEAKER_02: with a tiered level dispute resolution process,
58:30
SPEAKER_02: beginning with a what we call a meet and confer.
58:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, let's talk.
58:36
SPEAKER_02: And if that fails, we go to mediation.
58:39
SPEAKER_02: If that fails, let's go to arbitration.
58:41
SPEAKER_02: That's usually my or or court.
58:44
So that's usually what I recommend because I'm a huge fan of,
58:47
you know,
58:48
not going to court.
58:50
You know,
58:51
I usually tell my clients,
58:54
you know,
58:54
my job is to keep you out of court.
58:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's that's I don't like being in court.
59:02
SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's a cold place that I just don't think is I don't know.
59:07
SPEAKER_02: It gives me the willies.
59:09
SPEAKER_02: Um,
59:09
SPEAKER_02: but,
59:09
SPEAKER_02: but,
59:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
59:10
SPEAKER_02: that's sort of my job is to keep you out of court,
59:12
SPEAKER_02: making sure that you are,
59:13
SPEAKER_02: um,
59:13
SPEAKER_02: uh,
59:14
SPEAKER_02: entering into good contracts that you can comply with,
59:16
SPEAKER_02: that you understand and that you can operate to,
59:18
SPEAKER_02: um,
59:19
SPEAKER_02: that you're complying with all the laws,
59:21
SPEAKER_02: um,
59:21
SPEAKER_02: privacy laws,
59:22
SPEAKER_02: uh,
59:23
SPEAKER_02: you know,
59:23
SPEAKER_02: this,
59:23
SPEAKER_02: this book here,
59:24
SPEAKER_02: um,
59:26
SPEAKER_02: and,
59:26
SPEAKER_02: uh,
59:27
SPEAKER_02: you know,
59:27
SPEAKER_02: make sure that you're not doing anything that's going to,
59:29
SPEAKER_02: um,
59:30
SPEAKER_02: uh,
59:30
SPEAKER_02: attract,
59:31
SPEAKER_02: uh,
59:31
SPEAKER_02: regulators,
59:32
SPEAKER_02: um,
59:33
SPEAKER_02: such that you might have to,
59:34
SPEAKER_02: um,
59:35
you know,
59:36
pony up some money or a fine or worst case,
59:38
you know,
59:38
have your business shut down.
59:40
SPEAKER_02: That's my job.
59:40
SPEAKER_02: That's a good in-house lawyer will keep you out of court.
59:45
SPEAKER_02: But like you said,
59:47
sometimesyoujustgetsomethinginthemailthatsaysyoureachedacontract
59:51
SPEAKER_02: because the client is upset.
59:53
SPEAKER_02: And that may be true.
59:54
SPEAKER_02: You may have done something inadvertently.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: Or even a cease and desist, right?
59:59
SPEAKER_00: Even a cease and desist,
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: you stop using,
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: you didn't do maybe the work necessary on the trademark side of things.
1:00:05
And you've got a logo floating out there that is infringing or a name is
1:00:11
infringing
1:00:11
SPEAKER_00: upon somebody.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: And I always feel that
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: you know, what do you do?
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think this is that was that was a great explanation in,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: what you do in those in those steps.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, this has been like a masterclass in legal.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_00: This is, I mean, fantastic.
1:00:29
AndIfeellikewe'dlovetohaveyoucomebackonagainandmaybediveintosome
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: of these other areas that are,
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: that require a lot more explanation,
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: and
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: things are rapidly changing out there.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_00: And one area that's rapidly changing is obviously the use of AI and,
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: how that's coming into the mix.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: So we can save a whole other,
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:51
SPEAKER_00: podcast just on the legal side of AI,
1:00:53
SPEAKER_00: which I don't even know if it's like defined yet.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: It seems to be kind of floating.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: But I want to know, curiosity, as we can wrap this podcast up,
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, do you use, by the way, do you use AI in your workflow?
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:01:08
Tell me something,
1:01:09
you know,
1:01:09
we'll go like off topic here,
1:01:12
off the legal side of things.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: What's something you've done on AI that,
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: you just stopped for a moment and you said,
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: wow,
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:01:20
SPEAKER_00: oh my gosh,
1:01:21
SPEAKER_00: I can't believe it did that.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe it was something for your practice.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just something in your personal life.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you can point to that you had that wow moment?
1:01:29
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I'm still learning AI.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: So I believe,
1:01:33
SPEAKER_02: so again,
1:01:34
SPEAKER_02: my three values,
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: fairness,
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: transparency,
1:01:36
SPEAKER_02: efficiency,
1:01:37
SPEAKER_02: the last one,
1:01:38
SPEAKER_02: efficiency,
1:01:38
SPEAKER_02: right?
1:01:39
I try to do things as obviously carefully,
1:01:43
but with the minimum amount of time spent.
1:01:46
I still,
1:01:46
at this point,
1:01:47
I charge by the hour and my employee charges by the hour.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: So what we try to do is leverage AI tools
1:01:57
SPEAKER_02: in order to reduce the amount of time that we spend on our clients,
1:02:00
which ultimately brings their rates low and I can take on more clients and I
1:02:04
can
1:02:04
SPEAKER_02: help more people and so on.
1:02:06
But there's a fantastic tool that I use that I just learned about probably a
1:02:11
month
1:02:11
SPEAKER_02: and a half ago called Spellbook,
1:02:13
SPEAKER_02: S-P-E-L-L-B-O-O-K,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_02: and then their domain is .legal.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_02: So it's spellbook.legal.
1:02:21
But Spellbook is a tool,
1:02:22
it's a plugin that you put into Word that gives me a cautioned wow.
1:02:31
It definitely wows me and it gives me caution and pause in some scenarios.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_02: It's not perfect, right?
1:02:38
SPEAKER_02: But what it does is it,
1:02:40
SPEAKER_02: so it's a local AI,
1:02:43
SPEAKER_02: meaning that none of our clients' information is going out into Ether.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_02: As you know, if you go to ChatGPT,
1:02:49
SPEAKER_02: and put in a client or your own contract and it has your name in there,
1:02:55
SPEAKER_02: you've just sent that out to who knows who,
1:02:57
SPEAKER_02: right?
1:02:58
That's going to be used in other responses potentially to other people and
1:03:02
show up.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_02: And that could be a violation of their privacy policy.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_02: It could be a private violation of your contract.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_02: You have to, again, I tell my employee, we have a rule.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_02: We are not allowed to use ChatGPT for anything client related.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_02: So,
1:03:19
SPEAKER_02: That's a publicly-facing AI tool, and we just don't use it.
1:03:25
Spellbook is local,
1:03:26
meaning that no information goes from my computer anywhere.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_02: It's all locally processed.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_02: I understand that Apple's new artificial intelligence is also local,
1:03:38
meaning that it doesn't go outside and potentially used in other people's queries.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_02: So with respect to drafting,
1:03:47
Spellbook definitely gives me the wow because what I can do is I can take a lease,
1:03:52
SPEAKER_02: for example,
1:03:54
SPEAKER_02: a Word version of a lease document.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_02: I could use Spellbook and I could just type in there,
1:03:59
SPEAKER_02: draft a demand letter to this customer on behalf of my clients.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_02: um, for breach of contract.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_02: And, um, what it'll do is it'll get me again, 80 to 90% of there.
1:04:11
So it'll just like spit out a demand letter that I don't have to draft from scratch,
1:04:15
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:04:16
SPEAKER_02: that I can now take and revise it as needed and maybe save,
1:04:20
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:04:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:04:21
SPEAKER_02: 25,
1:04:21
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:04:22
SPEAKER_02: to 50% of the time that I would have otherwise had to spend.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:04:25
SPEAKER_02: and it definitely is,
1:04:27
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:04:27
SPEAKER_02: expediting,
1:04:28
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:04:29
SPEAKER_02: the use of,
1:04:29
SPEAKER_02: of,
1:04:30
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:04:30
SPEAKER_02: or sorry,
1:04:30
SPEAKER_02: the use of my time,
1:04:31
SPEAKER_02: I guess it's,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: it's,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: it's reducing the use of my time on client matters.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_02: I also use a client management tool called Clio,
1:04:39
SPEAKER_02: C-L-I-O,
1:04:40
SPEAKER_02: that just released its own AI tool,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_02: and it's also pretty handy.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't give me the wow yet,
1:04:48
but it definitely can go through all of my clients' contracts and give me a
1:04:54
summary
1:04:55
of the status of that client with respect to how many contracts does it have,
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: when contracts might be expiring,
1:05:03
what's coming up this year for this client with respect to his or her contracts.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_02: So again, I believe in what I call the responsible use of AI tools.
1:05:17
I certainly have obligations to maintain the confidentiality of my clients
1:05:22
and
1:05:22
SPEAKER_02: their legal issues,
1:05:23
SPEAKER_02: and so nothing I do is allowed to go outside of my local processing here.
1:05:33
But think that AI is definitely changing the game and I'm seeing it firsthand
1:05:38
and
1:05:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm using it and being mindful of it.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_02: One thing that's kind of funny is,
1:05:43
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:05:43
SPEAKER_02: talking to somebody about,
1:05:44
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:05:44
SPEAKER_02: use of AI and it's like,
1:05:46
Ithinklawyersaregoingtohavetogetverycomfortableveryquicklyhowto
1:05:52
SPEAKER_02: charge for money.
1:05:54
their services because AI is going to make it a lot faster such that the time
1:05:59
may
1:05:59
SPEAKER_02: not reflect the value of the service that you're providing anymore.
1:06:04
Andit'ssomethingthatI'msortofkeepingsortofinthebackofmyheadasI
1:06:08
SPEAKER_02: continue to learn what tools become available.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_02: But that said, with respect to my clients' use of AI,
1:06:16
SPEAKER_02: I always say just be careful.
1:06:17
Don't put anything in an AI query that you don't want out publicly because
1:06:22
chances
1:06:23
SPEAKER_02: are it'll end up out publicly.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_02: And I certainly,
1:06:27
SPEAKER_02: one thing I do want to say is,
1:06:29
SPEAKER_02: and this is not my own thought or idea,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_02: but someone once mentioned to me,
1:06:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:06:36
SPEAKER_02: you can't outsource good judgments.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:06:39
SPEAKER_02: so,
1:06:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:06:41
SPEAKER_02: having a lawyer look at the generation,
1:06:43
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:06:44
the tool that you generated from chat GPT can help you understand what the
1:06:48
chatGPT
1:06:50
actually produced for you before you go and sign it and have it apply to you.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, well, funny thing about spell book.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_02: I, um, I love it.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a useful tool.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's not perfect.
1:07:00
You know,
1:07:00
I'll have it,
1:07:01
uh,
1:07:01
draft something or,
1:07:02
uh,
1:07:02
ask it to draft something for me.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, Whoa, like,
1:07:06
SPEAKER_02: if I had just taken it and sent it to a client,
1:07:08
I would have probably committed malpractice because of the errors that was
1:07:12
in there.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, it's not perfect.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_02: And having somebody who has practiced and read through tens of thousands,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_02: probably at this point in my career contracts,
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: to be able to digest what the output is,
1:07:25
SPEAKER_02: and then again,
1:07:26
SPEAKER_02: make sure it's applicable to your client is responsible.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I mean by the responsible use of AI.
1:07:33
yeahwellithinkyouknowwerefertoitasahumankeepthehumanintheloopum
1:07:38
you know and especially when you have an expertise and you're using tools
1:07:41
thatare
1:07:42
geared around that expertise you know make sure that you stay involved i
1:07:45
don't
1:07:46
think we're anywhere near that place where we're pushing buttons and
1:07:49
they'rejust
1:07:49
doingitforusandit'sgoingtohappenmaybeyouknowwhoknowsdowntheroad
1:07:53
maybe damien you're waking up in the morning and you push a button and spell
1:07:55
book
1:07:56
SPEAKER_00: and uh
1:07:56
SPEAKER_00: you know, it's all taken care of, and it's all perfect.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_00: But we're not there at that at this point.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's always good to be careful.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate your commentary about,
1:08:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:07
SPEAKER_00: making sure what you you know,
1:08:09
SPEAKER_00: being aware what you put into AI,
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:12
SPEAKER_00: is going to be used for the masses.
1:08:14
So,
1:08:14
you know,
1:08:15
if you can use a localized AI program,
1:08:18
that definitely helps.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_00: And especially in your field, you know, you have to be very careful
1:08:22
SPEAKER_00: in that area.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_00: But I got to say thank you so much.
1:08:25
ThishasbeenanincredibleandIabsolutelywouldlovetohaveyoucomeonand
1:08:29
we're going to dive into one specific issue and just talk about that because,
1:08:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:32
SPEAKER_00: again,
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: this is an area that e-commerce entrepreneurs are there's confusion.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
1:08:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:40
SPEAKER_00: there always will be having moments like this,
1:08:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:43
SPEAKER_00: to learn an informational,
1:08:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:46
SPEAKER_00: time that you can
1:08:48
you know pull information and then reach out you know and i think we're saying
1:08:51
here
1:08:51
is that you know there is no substitute for you know an attorney who you know
1:08:56
knows
1:08:56
their craft really well that can help you you know button up you know your and
1:09:00
i'm
1:09:01
i'maialwaysthinkthere'stwoareasinbusinessyouinvestinuhlegaland
1:09:05
financethesearetwoareasithinkthatyouknowiiwouldnevergoandyouknow
1:09:10
professthatiknowyouknowi'manexpertiknowenoughtojustunderstand
1:09:15
SPEAKER_00: But I need to know.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a good, you know, good concept for everybody to take.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_00: So as we wrap up here,
1:09:21
Iwouldloveforyoutojusttakeamomentandjustletpeopleknowhowtheycan
1:09:24
SPEAKER_00: connect with you directly or through your website and give us,
1:09:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:28
any anything you want to tell us where we can put in the show notes as well.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that'd be great.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I am.
1:09:34
I'd be happy to chat with anybody about anything that they're currently
1:09:38
going through.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_02: I have questions about I.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_02: Don't believe in charging for consultations.
1:09:42
So I'm happy to give a one hour consultation to anyone who is interested in
1:09:48
having
1:09:48
SPEAKER_02: a chat for free.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_02: So just, you know, something that, you know, I'm happy to do.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_02: I actually get really frustrated when I reach out to lawyers that.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_02: um, that I might be looking for.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, you've got to pay, you know, $400.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, but I don't even know if I want to use you yet.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's frustrating.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_02: So I just, uh, take a stance against that.
1:10:05
Um,
1:10:06
you can reach me at my email,
1:10:07
Damien,
1:10:08
D-A-M-I-A-N at enigmatechlegal.com.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_02: That's E-N-I-G-M-A-T-E-C-H-L-E-G-A-L.com.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, you can also reach me on LinkedIn.
1:10:19
It's,
1:10:19
uh,
1:10:20
you know,
1:10:20
LinkedIn.com,
1:10:22
um,
1:10:22
forward slash I-N forward slash,
1:10:25
um,
1:10:27
SPEAKER_02: Damian Guzman, D-A-M-I-A-N-G-U-Z-M-A-N.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: Pretty easy to find and happy to chat with any of your listeners.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, just reach out.
1:10:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:10:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, I appreciate it.
1:10:39
SPEAKER_00: And we'll put all that information in the show notes and highlight that.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: And that is a very unusual scenario.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_00: Not every lawyer out there is offering to have that consultation.
1:10:49
SPEAKER_00: But I think your point is perfect.
1:10:51
How would you know you need to hire somebody or why you need to hire them?
1:10:54
SPEAKER_00: unless you actually have that conversation.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
1:10:56
SPEAKER_00: it gives you an opportunity also to say,
1:10:58
SPEAKER_00: No,
1:10:58
SPEAKER_00: you're okay,
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: you don't really,
1:11:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:00
SPEAKER_00: and your time is valuable,
1:11:02
SPEAKER_00: being able to,
1:11:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:03
SPEAKER_00: focus on as many situations as possible.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for making that.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_00: And thank you very much for coming on today.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_00: I greatly appreciate it.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_00: We will make sure this,
1:11:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:14
SPEAKER_00: gets gets out there into the community and to anybody out there who is a
1:11:18
emerging e-commerce entrepreneur who really needs to understand what they
1:11:22
needto
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: be concerned about when it comes to the legal side of things.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_00: So, Damien, thank you so much.
1:11:27
Have a wonderful rest of your week,
1:11:29
and we will make sure that you're a frequent guest.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay?
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much, Romina.
1:11:36
SPEAKER_02: It was a pleasure.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:11:40
All right,
1:11:41
that brings us to the end of another episode of the e-commerce revolution podcast.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to check out past episodes,
1:11:48
which are all available on demand on YouTube and wherever you listen to your podcast.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_00: Ready to join the revolution?
1:11:55
SPEAKER_00: Become an exclusive part of our growing community of emerging e-commerce
1:11:59
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurs at ecomrevolution.co.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, see ya.