Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / Badass Women of the Mongol Empire with dr. Tobias Jones
Transcript
- Zaza (02:03.454) Dr. Tobias Jones is a researcher and historian of Mongol history and much more importantly, now also officially the first recurring guest of the Smart Cookies podcast previously, of course known as Eurotrash. Back by popular demand, I have to say Tobias, welcome. Toby Jones (02:28.433) Thank you for having me again. It's great to be back. Zaza (02:31.398) No, but really after our conversation, I believe it was a year ago already. I received a couple of emails praising the episode and especially you, of course, as a guest. Also, a couple of my friends told me privately that they really enjoyed it as well. I believe it is also the number one history episode when it comes to audio downloads of this entire pod. So it only made sense to ask you to come back again. So thank you so much. Toby Jones (02:35.792) Think so, yeah. Heh. Toby Jones (02:47.185) Yeah. Toby Jones (02:52.764) Great. Yeah. No, no problem. I don't mind talking about this for as long as long as you like. Zaza (03:03.274) Maybe I should just make this podcast about Mongol history and start a new one with the other stuff. Toby Jones (03:11.33) I have been asked if I want to do that but I'm not quite ready to commit to it. Zaza (03:15.898) Okay, cool. Well, until then, you're going to be a recurring guest here like every month now. Yeah, so a year ago, we had a really compelling conversation about the history of the Mongol Empire. And I kind of wanted us to cover frantically because of me, of course, most of the well known stuff, which is impossible in an hour, of course. So we talked about Chinggis Khan or Genghis Khan, we talked about Mongol conquests. Toby Jones (03:20.816) Great. No problem. Toby Jones (03:37.596) Mm-hmm. Zaza (03:45.934) their customs, warfare, etc. I warmly, warmly encourage everyone that's listening right now to go listen to that episode. It was not just utterly fascinating, but also informative and unexpectedly funny, especially the part about crazy Mongol whining and dining. And of course, the hilarious story of the first Western diplomat, I believe, to the Mongols, John of Plano-Karapini, whom you called, I believe, the very unlikely... Toby Jones (04:00.568) Hehehe Zaza (04:14.918) medieval James Bond. That's okay. A brilliant reference. Yeah. Today, however, we're going to have a tiny bit more of a topical conversation, even though the topic is still incredibly vast. I have no other way of putting it than to say that we're going to be talking about a couple of extraordinarily badass women of the Mongol Empire. Toby Jones (04:16.76) Yes, not my words, but a brilliant quote from a fellow scholar who nailed it, I think. Toby Jones (04:32.272) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (04:35.759) Yep. Toby Jones (04:42.6) Mm-hmm. Yes. Zaza (04:44.466) I mean, from my very limited reading, thank you, Wikipedia. These stories are just screaming for someone to turn them into a sassy HBO series or something. But before we go to personal destinies, let's at least set some basic coordinates here. I think with Men of the Mongol Empire, and that was obvious from the last episode we did as well, we have this kind of at least a general perspective Toby Jones (04:48.25) Haha Toby Jones (04:54.446) I'm out. Toby Jones (05:02.98) Mm-hmm. Zaza (05:14.166) first and foremost a mounted hunter and warrior. Maybe that's wrong. But with women, however, it gets much more murky pretty fast. So I wanted us to start with what was kind of the role or status of women in Mongol society, let's say, in the moment when Temujin or Genghis Khan later, when he appears on the world stage. Toby Jones (05:42.34) Yeah, I mean, it's you mentioned that the murkiness of it and of course that's that has to do with sources, right? Is that sources tend to focus on men's roles. That's just the long and short of it. And, you know, because also because a lot of those sources come not from the not from Mongols themselves, they bring with them a lot of their own, you know. assumptions about the roles of women and things like that, right? So a lot of the sources come from the Persian society or Chinese society. They have specific ideas about the role of women, and so they try and sort of impose those on the Mongols also. It doesn't always work, which thankfully, because then we get a lot of really fascinating stuff about Mongol women. But of course, from Mongolian sources, primarily the secret history of the Mongols, which we talked about last time, Zaza (06:36.11) the secret history of the Mongols, which we talked about last time. Yep. Did you get quite an interesting picture? Toby Jones (06:39.912) you do get quite an interesting picture of the role of women. So of course as part of the sort of step nomad society, they have a key role, right? They are part of, in the function of animal husbandry, they take care of a lot of the animals, they make a lot of the items that Mongol society needs. Zaza (06:51.502) they have a key role, right? They are part of in the function of animal husbandry, they take care of a lot of the animals, they make a lot of the items that the Mongol society needs but basically they're also able to take over when the men go off the floor, they're sort of able to manage everything and this is one of the key things that we see throughout the Toby Jones (07:05.04) But basically they're also able to take over when the men go off to war, right? They're sort of able to manage everything. And this is one of the key things that we see throughout this period is that when the Chinggis Khan or any of his successors leaves on campaign, they leave their camp, their mobile camp, they leave those in the hands of one of their wives who basically takes over the running of it. So in that sense, Moen were women were ready to take up that position. And so we have a lot of stories about sort of that happening, both in the early period when Timogen is just coming up, he's basically, when his father is killed, when he's quite young, his mother, Oelun, she basically takes over the running of that camp. It becomes very small camp because a lot of people desert her because she is a woman and Seen is not a leader at that time. But she really, you know, she makes sure that the camp survives. She makes sure that her sons survive. And, you know, we have stories about her riding out with the standard to try and reclaim the people of her husband who had deserted her and her children. It doesn't... work exactly, but she keeps them going, she keeps the camp thriving to a small extent, and it keeps them alive essentially, and that means that Temujin is able to carry on. So we have this early example in the sort of Mongol imperial period of a really important figure who is a woman who leads, right? And this sort of sets the tone for the rest of the Mongol period of women really taking on leadership roles. And this happens very regularly. And so, yeah, we shouldn't perhaps be so surprised by it. But I think usually the difference is we compare it to other societies around and we see perhaps the role of women being very... Toby Jones (09:27.98) not very prominent, let's say, in the realms of politics. And then, you know, it's more of a back, in the back, background. Of course, women are always involved in politics, but in Europe, for example, it's usually further in the background, right? But in Mongol society, they're really at the forefront in a lot of cases. And this is what's led to a lot of the fascination around Mongol women. Zaza (09:30.544) the realms of politics. And then, you know, more in the back, backgrounds, of course, women are always involved in politics. But in Europe, for example, it's even further in the background, right? But in Mongol society, they're really at the forefront in a lot of cases. This is what led to a lot of the fascination around you just, you just mentioned it already. Could we dare a comparison with the status of women in medieval Europe, with the status of women in the Mongol Empire or the beginning of the Mongol Empire? Were there some similarities? Toby Jones (10:07.392) Yeah, I mean, well, of course, I mean, I think that you have to the problem becomes sort of a lot of assumptions about what Mongol society is. And there's been a lot of that in the past about how it's more egalitarian, it's more, you know, sort of communal, that sort of thing. And I think a lot of that has been debunked. A lot of it has been proved to be a very aristocratic society, you know, there are certain families that dominate the rule of the society and things like that. So because of that and also because of what we've seen from you know mongol women getting to a high position there's been perhaps a little bit of an overstatement of what the situation of women in mongolian society and I think that it's natural because as you say if you compare it to europe or the middle east or china right Zaza (10:50.538) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (11:05.264) the societies that circle the nomadic steppe, you would say that women don't have a very outward role in, yeah, I guess it would be more like politics, right? They still have a very important role in the running of society, the running of farming, all these things, they're still involved, right? Heavily involved, but in Mongol society, it's more prominent. And I think that that... You know, it really developed from seeing all these Mongolian women really at the forefront. But if you look at it, of course, Mongol society is still incredibly patriarchal. And there are a lot of moments where we see that women are still often treated as property and things like that. So you really shouldn't be taken too far. And I think that what we're sort of coming to now, I have to mention at this moment, there were two fascinating books that came out in the last few years, one by Anne Brobridge, another by a guy called Bruno de Nicola, who both wrote books on Mongol women in 2017, 2018. So they came out right around the same time. And so these books have really inspired a lot more discussion about this. Zaza (12:21.218) both wrote their books on mongol women in 2017, 2018, so they came out right around the same time. And so these books have really inspired a lot more discussion about this. But I think also people are starting to realize that we have to try and figure out the limits and don't want to go around saying that everything was great for women in mongol United because that's clearly not the case. Toby Jones (12:34.104) But I think also people are starting to realize that we have to try and figure out the limits of this, because you don't want to go around saying that everything was great for women in Mongol society, because that's clearly not the case. It's really at the elite level where you see the difference, right? Is that you see Mongol women really at taking a very proactive role in politics. And that, I guess, is the primary difference, I would say. Zaza (12:48.526) It's really at the elite level that you see the Mughal women as taking a very proactive role in politics. And that, I guess, is the primary difference. Was there a difference between low-born and aristocratic women in the Mongol society? Toby Jones (13:05.485) Ahem. Toby Jones (13:09.048) Of course, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, if you... The way you would see it, perhaps, again, this goes back to, do we assume that Mongol society, because it is nomadic, is more sort of free? Because, of course, if you're a nomad, you have the ability to, right, leave. You have the ability to move away from, you know, a system or a group that would be, you know, oppressing you or something like that. Do you assume based on that Mongol women had more freedom? Well, you know, possibly in the sense of they they're going off with their group, but they're still tied to their family unit, right? And this is something that you see in that Mongol society is based on marriage that is exogamous is the term. So basically you do not marry within your own family. Zaza (13:51.357) Hmm. Toby Jones (14:08.448) You don't marry within that group, you marry outside that group. So basically, the Chinggisids, the descendants of Chinggis Khan, all married, primarily you would choose a certain lineage to marry into and then you would continue to marry within that group throughout the lineage, right? So the Mongols decided that there were certain groups that were famed for, for example, the beauty of their women. So the Congrat are one group, the Oerat are another, and basically the sons of Tunggis Khan, all married women from these groups. So basically this... Zaza (14:41.774) basically the sons of all married women from these groups. But these are all, these are all Mongols. Are they part of other Turkic groups or? Toby Jones (14:51.812) Yeah, so it's probably a bit too... Basically there's different groups on the Mongolian steppe who are Turkic and Mongol, or Mongol, and some of them become basically... So the term is called kuda, and this is the marriage partner. And this marriage partner status is basically granted to one lineage from the Oirat, for example, Mongolian-speaking. Yes. and they continue to marry across those two lineages. So women from the Chinggisid lineage marry Oirat men and vice versa. So yeah, you have this. Zaza (15:24.178) Okay. So Chingis's father was like, son, I heard the women from that group are really, really beautiful. We're going to tie our fortunes with them. That's a pretty good deal. I'm not going to lie. Toby Jones (15:41.6) Yeah, well, so, well, actually, what the interesting thing is about that period is really, this is where you see the sort of, it's somewhat a societal assumption or sort of ritual about abduction, right? So even in normal marriages, there's sort of like a little game that is played where the woman sort of runs off and the man has to go and capture her. But actually, What normally happens in a normal marriage is that there would be a contract and the husband has to pay the bride price or work for his in-laws for a certain number of years, right? And this is actually what Timogen was supposed to do when he got his wife. And he did not do this. He was not actually, he did not complete the role. So... what actually happens is that the poorer people end up doing this actual abduction of women. So you have Timogen's father, Yesugei, he abducts his wife, Timogen's mother, and Timogen himself abducts his wife, Borte. So there's this sort of, yeah, it's this kind of, yeah, it's a societal ritual, but in some cases of poverty. they actually do end up abducting women. And then you get these repercussions, right? In that the societies from the people groups from whom they did abduct them end up taking revenge and taking women back and things like that. Exactly, so. Zaza (17:17.838) they did stop them and they're taking revenge and taking them back. Like a blood feud. Okay, just a second if we just stop here for a little bit. So was it a kind of ritual that was agreed upon before this bride kidnapping or was it actual kidnapping? I watched the documentary if you can call it that from Vice about bride kidnapping in Kyrgyzstan today, a contemporary phenomenon. Toby Jones (17:28.892) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (17:37.272) Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Toby Jones (17:45.496) Yeah, so there is clearly a ritualized element to it. And it's some of the way that we have rituals around weddings, too, right? I mean, we still use phrases like you give this woman. It's a little bit ritualized, even though those things no longer have the same meaning. And so this is a moment where there is this ritual. However, Zaza (18:07.098) Right, right. Toby Jones (18:13.764) there is also real kidnapping. So you have the example of Timogen's mother, Oelun, who in the Secret History is portrayed as really devastated by being taken away from her original husband, who was a man named Chilger of the Merkit. And she sings this or recites this poem about how she's devastated to be losing him. and he should remember the smell of her shirt and things like that. So it's a really evocative image of loss. And it's really interesting that it's also that is included in the secret history, which definitely is on the side of Timogen and his father. But they still include this really powerful image of her losing her original husband and then Yesugei, Timogen's father, taking her. Zaza (18:52.034) and it's really interesting that it's also included in the specific three deputies on the side of the definitive and his father but they still include this division of power for losing of original husbands and then miscegating the father taking her which probably means it really happened, right? Because otherwise they wouldn't include it Toby Jones (19:12.196) And so there is Toby Jones (19:17.044) Well, and then the Merkit respond later in Timunjin's life. They come and they take Burta, Timunjin's wife, as revenge. And so this causes, you know, this feud between the two and doesn't end until the Mongols defeat and destroy the Merkit royal house. So really, this is created from that. And so... You know, in the ideal situation, this would be avoided by exactly having a bride price, having a contract, having the husband work for the family of the in-laws. But, you know, in the cases of this sort of up-and-coming society, they have to fight a little bit more for their status, and this is when they end up capturing women. and the capturing of women goes on, right? That doesn't stop. So you have to see it from that perspective. Zaza (20:24.33) So Temujin's mother was already married to another man and yet she was still kidnapped by Temujin's father. Why did he do that if he knew that she was already married, that there's gonna be potential retribution and that she's probably gonna be miserable as well? A lot of things stacked up against this decision. Toby Jones (20:28.44) Yes. Toby Jones (20:31.681) Yes. Toby Jones (20:45.016) Yeah, well, but it's also that the status of the woman is incredibly important, right? And that status lends itself to the man's lineage, right? And this is what you see throughout Mongol society is that they are really keen to marry women of high status. And so in that early period where they're still sort of trying to establish themselves Toby Jones (21:15.276) high status lineage, that's important, right, to have a high status woman by your side and your children will, their lineage will be sort of more elevated because of that. So you do see that happening. And yeah, it goes on, right, it goes on later. And you have the issue with Borta, this sort of issue in reverse. because when the Merkit come and take revenge for this earlier moment, yes, and she is, so the Merkit in revenge for Ysuge taking Oelun, the names are a bit tricky sometimes, but if in revenge for this, they come later and they take Timogen's wife Borta. And this leads to issues because... Zaza (21:46.334) Sorry, Borta is Genghis Khan's wife. First wife. Toby Jones (22:10.396) Temujin's oldest son Jochi is born shortly after this abduction. Right? So there's an assumption or a, yeah, perhaps a story going around that Jochi was not actually Temujin's son, that he was a descendant of the Merkit. And this ends up being played out later in the decision who should succeed Temujin. And Jochi's other brother Chagatai calls him a bastard of the Merkit, right? And so this does cause problems for the family generally. Even though Temujin seems to have been very much accepting of Jochi, no matter what, you know, who his actual father was. Zaza (22:57.663) If we rewind back a little bit to Temüjin's mother Oylun, did I say that? Oylun, okay, wow. What was a typical upbringing for a Mongolian girl of the period? What did the sources say, if anything, about that? Especially opposed to an upbringing of a Mongolian boy, let's say. Toby Jones (22:59.33) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (23:02.541) Oh, Elune, yeah. Toby Jones (23:23.252) Yeah, it's sort of we don't we don't get a sort of how to about raising a Mongolian girl, sadly. I think that we have to look at perhaps their what their roles were. And, you know, would they be trained in similar things, right? I think they would still be trained in horseback riding, they would still be trained in animal husbandry, the things that are needed to keep the society running. So there's certainly that, but also what happens with these exogamous marriages is that they are sent away from their own families. They're sort of sent often quite far away, so they're not even in the same region. And so in that sense, there must have been some attempts to prepare them for a life where they were not connected so much to their own families. You know, that of course there were still connections, but you had to be sort of ready to be over with your husband's family. And so in that sense, I think they're sort of at least at the elite level, Toby Jones (24:45.488) political sort of involvement too, right? And what we don't know, and this is actually really interesting. So I was just at a conference where Christopher Atwood was presenting his new translation of the secret history of the Mongols. So this is the earliest Mongolian language source. And he suggests that there's a possibility that it was written by a woman. And I was actually, I was quite... shocked by this, but he does present some very interesting evidence of who the source could be. And I asked him about, well, okay, that's certainly a very interesting proposal. How does it work with literacy, right? And so he, well, as he pointed out, we don't know very much about male literacy, either. So it's not impossible that women were literate, because they were also Zaza (25:35.521) what uh... Toby Jones (25:42.84) responsible for the training and upkeep of their sons. So their sons were trained in politics and things like that. And they undertook this training under the leadership of their mothers or sometimes an adoptive mother who would take them in and train them up. But we still don't know very much, if anything, about Mongol women being literate. Of course, we don't know very much about Mongol men being literate either. So it's, yeah, it's a sort of unknown aspect of whether, at what point, because of course, later on, we do have knowledge of later Mongol khans receiving training in different languages and things like that. But that may also have been the case for the daughters of the khans too. We don't know. But yeah. Zaza (26:19.922) Yeah, it's sort of this unknown aspect of whether, at what point, because of course later on we do have knowledge of later mobile cons receiving training in different languages and things like that, but that may also have been the case for the daughters of the cons too, we don't know. We just don't know. Toby Jones (26:42.132) Exactly. So it's hard to really take a strong point on that. But given how it seems to me that, you know, their level of involvement in politics, it doesn't, it doesn't seem unlikely that they were literate, right? If you have later on, you have various women taking very, you know, giving commands, hiring officials, all that sort of thing. Yes, of course, this could be done without literacy, but it seems that, you know, if they had the people there to train them, perhaps they took them up on that, right? Zaza (27:22.568) But it seems that if they had the people there to train them, they took them up on that, right? Toby Jones (27:26.08) Yep. Toby Jones (27:34.548) Mm-hmm. Yes. Zaza (27:43.986) everybody else deserted her and she's alone. How is she able to defend herself in this harsh environment without a lot of protection? Is her status, her noble status kind of protecting her and her sons or how does that work? Because I'm just imagining like a middle-aged woman or whatever with a couple of her sons, maybe a couple of servants but that's pretty much it. How come she wasn't just attacked, kidnapped by a rival group? How come she wasn't, yeah, forcefully married again or something? It just seems, yeah, a lot to ask of one woman. Toby Jones (28:23.381) Yeah, there's a little bit of, yeah, I think there is a little bit of sort of making her into a heroine figure. And you know, there is this portrayal of, you know, like she's collecting nuts and berries for them to live on. I don't think that's the really, I mean, I think they did have a bigger staff, you know, a larger number of retainers and servants. Zaza (28:36.677) And there is this portrayal of, you know, like she's collecting. Toby Jones (28:51.236) then the secret history would sort of imply that this absolute poverty, I don't think that was ever the case. There is also, there's a strong, there's a suggestion in, it's not really mentioned explicitly in the secret history, it is in other sources that she married again. That she married as a man named Munglik, and that he's called Father Munglik in the secret history. So there's this sort of like already you know. And in other sources such as Rashida Deen, it's mentioned explicitly that she married him. And Yesugei, her husband, as he's sort of on his deathbed, says, take care of her. So there is, and they seem to be quite a powerful family. One of his sons, not their sons, one of Mengli's sons is the famous shaman Teb Tengri, who's very important in Timogen's rise. So clearly there are powerful people still around them. And yes, the status may have protected them, but it also seems to be a reason that they were targeted. Later on, you have a moment where the Taichiut, who are sort of cousins of Timogen, come and invade the camp and capture him and take him away. And this moment is, you know, clearly they're looking after this guy who may be a threat at some point. And so in that sense, there is a little bit of that. But yeah, the fact that they're sort of abandoned, this, you know, is also, it's a statement, right? It's a status statement that we're no longer with you and your status is low now. And there's this moment, right, where the Taichir woman, don't include Oelun in one of these ritual sacrifices. And this is the signal that they're no longer considered of the same status. And so yeah, there's a clear sort of, you're no longer one of us. And then you have this moment where Oelun is really trying to keep her small family together. And in this moment, you have actually her, Toby Jones (31:15.undefined) to Yisugei's other wife, of course, this is very common in Mongol society, we can't forget, is that it's polygamous, right? They will have multiple wives depending on their wealth. And so Yisugei had two wives. The other one, whose name we don't know, was also with them, and her sons were also with them. And so you have this sort of small family unit. And actually, there's clashes between the two groups of sons. And at some stage, Yisugei, Timujin, sorry, kills Bekhter, his half brother. So this is clearly sort of like a battle for priority amongst the sons of Yisugei. So yeah, there's a lot of legend around this period. And what ends up happening is Oe Lune is seen as this sort of example of what a Mongolian woman should be. And then... Later on, another woman, a very famous one, Sorkohtani Beki, she becomes a widow. She's the wife of Tolui, Chinggis's fourth son. She becomes a widow and she doesn't marry again. And she's portrayed as even better than Holunen because she doesn't marry again. Yeah, there's a lot of legend around these women. It's quite interesting. They sort of become almost like, you know, cult figures themselves. Zaza (32:40.972) would it be fair to say that Temujin's mother was kind of his most trusted confidant in this period? Or maybe throughout his life? Or was their relationship? Toby Jones (32:52.148) She's not only that, but she's also his sort of guide, because she's the one basically often telling him when he's doing things wrong. And this is quite interesting about the secret history is that it doesn't hide this, right? It has moments where she will tell him directly things that she says there's this very powerful image where he's basically trying to assert his own. authority over his younger brother, Jochi Kassar. And there's this powerful image where she says, you drained my right breast, the other child drained my left breast, but Jochi used to drain both breasts and give me release. Right? And so there's this very powerful image of, you know, her regularly putting Timogen in his place saying, this is the things, these are the things you should not be doing. And this also goes for Berta, his wife. She's often the one to sort of say, hey, hang on, you need to be doing this. And she's often acts as a political advisor too. So yeah, I think women often in the secret history have this role of like providing that this is what you should be doing. And that's what's quite interesting is that we don't see this so much in other sources, of course, but in this source, we really see this role of women saying, hang on. This is the right way to go about doing things. And that's something that I've noticed is quite interesting, given what other sources at the time would have said about that, right? You have moments where they say, this is the way it is done. This is the way the elders have done it, right? So this is the path that you should follow. And so that's one role they have in the Secret History that doesn't really seem to be so much present in the other sources. Zaza (34:32.174) This is the way the elders of Dr. Bright's this is the path that you follow. And so that's one role they have in history that Dr. Buhl seems to be so much more. Also kind of like pillars of tradition and of moral authority in a sense. But so for example, yeah, okay. Toby Jones (34:51.241) Yeah, and telling them off. That's the, it's really, you know, in some moments, it's really just telling them off. Zaza (34:59.007) It's a funny image of somebody telling Genghis Khan, hey mate, get it together, bro. You're slipping. But for example, with the case of Temujin killing his older half-brother, is his mother portrayed as sort of like scheming in the background for him to get more power or is she portrayed... Okay, yeah, please. Toby Jones (35:00.485) Yeah. Toby Jones (35:04.276) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Toby Jones (35:12.624) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (35:16.968) No, no, she's no absolutely. She's saying, she's saying, you know, there's this, um, uh, this line, uh, I think it's, I can't remember exactly the line, but it's basically like, we have nothing, you have to stay together. Right. Um, and this also, um, this is, goes back to the sort of legendary, um, beginnings of the Mongols. You have the, the woman who gives birth to. the legendary founders, Alan Koa, who is Alan the Just, she's Alan the Fair, sorry. She's seen as this, you know, sort of progenitor of the Mongol line, and she's the one who tells her sons the story about the arrows. So a single arrow can break, but if all the arrows are together, you can't break them, right? And so this is the idea, and this is what Oelun repeats to her sons, right, You know, we have nothing, we have to be a unit right now. And when he kills Bekhter, she's extremely angry about this and says, you're weakening our sort of power in that, in doing that. And this is a, this is a trope that goes on actually throughout, you know, Mongol society of, you know, whenever the, the sons turn against each other, then there's these warnings about, you know, we have to stick together. And so, yeah, this is, this is, she doesn't seem to be. scheming against her, the other wife's sons. Zaza (36:47.638) What was her role later on when Temujin became Chinggis Khan the Great Khan and consolidated his power? Did her status change or did their relationship change or did she even maybe grew in power at that point as the mother of the Great Khan? Toby Jones (37:03.684) Well, yes, so actually when the moment of, let's say, imperial unification is established, there's the sources talk about this when Chinggis doles out the different units of soldiers. And so each of his children get a certain amount. His. brothers, sons get a certain amount, and his mother. His mother also receives a certain number of troops. And she actually ends up complaining. She says, I didn't get enough troops. And there does seem to have been a little bit of a, yeah, a conflict between the two at the end, towards the end of her life. And she seems to be a little bit... Zaza (37:58.563) seems to be a little bit unimpressed by it. Ha ha. Toby Jones (37:59.768) Yeah, unimpressed by how she's treated, even though she is recognized as, you know, one of the few people who actually gets apportioned troops, right, that are hers. And so yeah, there is a little conflict in the end. And I think also, you know, her political role is largely now taken by Genghis's wives, who are the ones who begin to sort of say, you know, you should do this, you should do that. Zaza (38:26.478) this. You should do that, don't do that. So you get a different generation of women taking over the reign. Why did she receive troops? Supposedly, his brothers and his sons received troops so they could conquer more land. Did she? I mean... Toby Jones (38:27.472) Don't do that, that's insane. So you get a different generation of women taking over the reins in that regard. Toby Jones (38:44.452) Well, it's not so... If you think that maybe it was my mistake to use the term troops, that's the way they're described, but actually what it means is it's basically an allotment of people, and you also receive funds, basically. You receive taxes from the land that those people are in, and also, you know, you continue to receive booty from... the various expeditions that they would go on. And so, yeah, it's essentially what you would see in Europe, you would be rewarded with a plot of land, right, and the revenues from that land. In the Mongol society, it's not land because they're not a land, they don't think of things in that way. You receive a group of people and they are also supposed to provide revenue for you. So that is the way that it's sort of seen and his different sons are given certain amount of people and you can see perhaps the different status of the sons based on the amount of people that they receive. Zaza (39:49.938) Did the life of Temujin's first wife, Borte, did it mirror that of his mother to a certain extent? Or was it exceptional in its own terms and completely different? Toby Jones (40:07.169) Well, I mean, she's also abducted from her husband and taken away. And so there are definitely parallels. Excuse me. But yeah, she doesn't quite have the same in the Secret History. She doesn't quite have the same forcefulness as Oelun does. She's of course not of... Zaza (40:07.178) Because you said that she kind of replaced the role of his mother at a certain point with giving him advice. Toby Jones (40:33.296) She's not older than Timogen, so she can't really, it's not that generational gap means that, the respect for elders means that Oelunas, his mother can tell him off and things like that. So Borta is not so much in the telling off thing, but it's more like she's the one who often provides him, okay, no, this is what this means, you should do it this like this. And his other wives too, also there's, moment where he's about to go off on a campaign and one of his other wives says, hang on, before you go on this, do this dangerous thing, you need to sort out the succession. And we need to get that sorted first. So yeah, they continue to show this political acumen that is regularly mentioned. And that continues, of course, after Timogen. But yeah, Borta, it's not, we don't have... quite so much information about her life. And that I think basically she also dies. She dies before Timogen. So perhaps there would have been a different situation if she had survived him because as we know from later moments that when a Khan dies often the wife would take over as the regent, right? And so because Burt pre-deceases Chinggis, she doesn't get to do this, but presumably that may have been the case. Zaza (41:41.122) So perhaps there would be a different situation if she had survived and because as we know from later moments that when a car dies, often the wife would take over the regions, right? And so because of her pre-decease decision, she doesn't get to do this, but presumably that may have been the case if she had died often. So yeah, we don't get quite as much information about her. Toby Jones (41:59.001) if she had died after him. So, yeah, we don't get quite as much information about her specifically. Toby Jones (42:09.372) Mm-hmm. Zaza (42:10.574) Toregene... How did I do? Toregene When we had our little correspondence before Before the show and to talk about who exactly should we talk about you called her The I believe the most powerful woman in the world apart from maybe Queen Victoria So she was the wife of the second Khan and regent of the Empire Toby Jones (42:12.269) Yep. No, it's fine. It's Töriken, technically, but you know, yeah, there you go. Zaza (42:39.866) Mongol Empire. How did she become so powerful? Toby Jones (42:44.92) Well, I mean, this is what's sort of an interesting development in the running of the empire. And we've seen, as we mentioned with Öelun, for example, we've seen that women could take this role of, you know, sort of temporary leader. And I think what happens in the situation, basically when Chinggis dies, There's a bit of a historical blank space as to the disagreements between his sons. It's sort of played down. But I think there was a moment that Tolui, his youngest son, sort of tries to claim the throne. And he is seen as the regent for a time. And then Urgedei, who was agreed upon by the Kurotai, the meeting of the Mongols. eventually takes over. But so Tolui had this regency position, but he may have made a play for the throne. And the Mongols, I think, saw that as somewhat dangerous, right? If you give the regency to one of the sons, the likelihood that he will just keep power is very strong, right? And so after the death of Ögedei in 1242, you have a sort of, yeah, Turigene is his chief wife. Zaza (44:03.55) in 1242, you have a sort of, yeah, Turigene is his chief wife, and she has already been extremely sort of influential during his reign. We have different accounts that say that basically Ugedei was an alphabolic and was taking care of the realm. Toby Jones (44:11.424) and she had already been extremely influential during his reign. We have different accounts that say that basically Ogedei was an alcoholic and wasn't taking care of the realm. And so Toragene is doing it. She's the one who's taking care of things. And so in the last few years of Ogedei's life, it seems that Toragene has a very important role already. just running the empire. So it was sort of natural that she continued to do that whilst they decided upon a Khan to succeed Ögedei. What's actually fascinating about Turigene as well is that not only her, but one of her advisors, her most powerful advisor, was also a woman called Fatima Khatun. And she's a really, really interesting character. Generally, she seems to have started off as a slave basically, and she rises within the ranks somehow and becomes basically Turgene's main advisor. And she's basically portrayed as the woman who you went to if you wanted to get things done. And so between them actually you have this period where really the Mongol Empire is being run by two women in fact. Of course there are still the other officials who... Zaza (45:25.952) where really the Mongol Empire is being run by two women, in fact. Of course, there are still the other officials who are below them, but I could talk to you about these two women. Until to get it basically after the death of Bergedei, she contacts the other princes, such as Chagatai, and says, I'm going to be running things, by the way, until we can have another kurokai and decide upon the successor. Toby Jones (45:34.668) are below them, but at the top you have these two women. And Totigetet, basically after the death of Ögedei, she contacts the other princes, such as Chagatai, and says, I'm going to be running things, by the way, until we can have another kurokai and decide upon the successor. Chagatai goes, yep, that's fine, all good. And so she gets the approval of the main relatives of Genghis, who are still alive. he's the oldest at that point, Chagatai, so you get this, okay, it's confirmed by this guy who's the eldest surviving son. And so, yeah, at that point, Turugene basically is in control, and she is in control between the death of Ogadai, I think I said 1242, but it's 1241, and the takeover of her son, Toby Jones (46:32.776) make sure all of that happens. She's paying off the right people, she's threatening the right people, or the wrong people, and essentially she's the one who makes it happen that Goyuk takes over. And actually even, it seems like even for a while, while he is Han, she's still running things. And yeah, there's basically a bit of a... there's a conflict between them about Fatima. Because there's... Zaza (46:35.054) She's paying off the right people, she's threatening the right people, people of the wrong people, and essentially she's the one who makes it happen that Kriuk takes over. And actually even, it seems like even for a while, while he is Han, she's still running things. And yeah, there's basically a bit of a, there's conflict between. Toby Jones (47:02.052) There was this accusation that Fatima had poisoned another son of Ogedei, and Goyuk wants to try her, and Turgen is like, no, you can't do that, she's with me. And so this eventually, Goyuk has to threaten his own mother and say, you know, we're doing this. And then Fatima is tried and killed in a very, very horrible way. And so this is sort of, this is at the moment where you see that there is, there can be a very, very strong reaction against female power getting too great, essentially. And this Toregini dies just of natural causes. We don't exactly know how, but soon after Gunyuk's election. But yeah, Fatima is killed in this really horrible way. And this also happens to... Zaza (47:41.264) I was just about to ask if the question is about the female power getting too great for the potential. And this, sort of again, it dies just in natural poses, we don't exactly know how, but soon after the mayor's election. But yeah, Fatima is killed in a pretty horrible way, and this also happened to later women in the Fatima period. So there is a sort of, there does seem to be a reaction against this expression of female power. Toby Jones (48:00.408) later women of the Mongol period. So there is a sort of, there does seem to be a reaction against this expression of female power. Zaza (48:11.304) punishment that was usually reserved for men and met it out to them was also applied to women when they were kind of engaged in these games of power. And I read this Fatima's death was like they sewn her up somehow and threw her in the water and that really sounded pretty grim. Toby Jones (48:21.905) What's? Toby Jones (48:28.292) Yeah, so this is something that seems to be more readily, I've just written an article about this, and this seems to be more readily attached to women, the accusation of sorcery, the use of illicit magic, right? It continues to be thrown at women who, yeah, basically, it's perhaps seen as something extraordinary that these women have got to this level of power. And so they must have done something dodgy to get there. And so this accusation, which is of course impossible to prove, but is seen in Mongol society is very, very dangerous, right? The association with, you know, spirits, powerful spirits is seen really negatively. And so in that sense, there may have been this, okay, wait, we can get rid of women that we don't want. with this accusation and this happens a few more times in Mongol societies, this continues to happen. And this execution, which is Fatima's case, very, very elaborately described, is meted out also to different women later, also in the same way that's being thrown in the river as an execution, which seems to be something to do with the spirits that they... supposedly in contact with. And so, yeah, there's the two main accusations that get thrown at powerful Mongol women are poisoning and witchcraft. And so these two, of course, which are almost impossible to prove, become a sort of way of the Mongol men to bring down their female rivals. Zaza (50:11.31) become a sort of way of the Mongol men to bring down their female rivals. Interesting, there's an odd parallel here with medieval Europe, no? Maybe in a slightly different way, I hosted a professor of female spirituality in medieval Europe also last year and she said that women that were usually targeted as witches were unlike here with the Mongols, were powerful women. women who are social outcasts usually and then they were blamed for some calamity like old women without families, etc women without a Powerful benefactor or protector but this accusation of poisoning was regularly Kind of applied to powerful women as well like, you know certain queens Catherine of Medici. I think was famous for that So so yeah interesting Toby Jones (50:42.49) Yeah. Yeah. Toby Jones (51:01.584) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (51:05.86) Yeah, I mean, I think it's... Well, actually what's interesting is that when I was doing the research for this article, I was looking, reading up a little bit on medieval witchcraft in Europe, and really actually that the association with women in particular was not that strong until later, right, until the early modern period. And so, however, here in the Mongol period, yes, men were also accused of witchcraft, much less, but still it happened. But yeah, I think it's, you know, this somewhat this trope, right, of the powerful woman who's scheming and, you know, there's all these behind the scenes and, you know, how can they, you know, poison a scene as a woman's weapon and all these things, right? There's this assumption about what it goes on behind what we can't see. And I think poison and witchcraft are easily put in the same sort of, we can't see what's going on there, but we know something's up because they have way too much power and they shouldn't have this much power. And even in Mongol society, there are regularly statements made about the place of women and it shouldn't be there. And so you do have moments, of course, the issue is that these the sources which state this come from societies where that is much more the case. And so it's sort of hard to see if that is coming from the Mongols themselves or that's coming from their sources. The fact that these women were killed on charges of witchcraft means that there clearly was some reaction against Mongol female power. And so that is one thing that, yeah, that seems to there seems to be a sort of a moment where Mongol women really get to the heights. And this is in the case of Turigene, another regent who succeeds Goyuk called Ogul Gheimish. and then another regent in the Chagatayid realm called Orghina. And these three are around roughly the same period, but once they sort of are killed in various ways, well, actually, sorry, only Okul Geymish is killed, but once they fall, there isn't another sort of moment where Mongol women reach these heights. They're still very important and they still play these political roles. Toby Jones (53:26.672) but they no longer are established as regions in the same way. And so this becomes, you know, there's sort of, perhaps there's this, because of the strong reaction against these women, there may have been a sort of like, okay, you know, they're not gonna get to the same level. So yeah, then women become much more, yeah, still in this position of advice and consultation. Because Mongol women were always included in the kudal ties also, right? These big events where they consult about who should be ruler, where should we attack next, what taxes should we introduce. Mongol women are part of that. So in that sense, yeah. Yeah, I don't know about voting is the right term. They have a voice. It's definitely true. Yeah. And this would have been... Zaza (54:09.871) So they discuss and they discuss with the man and they vote as well as well they have a vote Okay, they have a voice. Toby Jones (54:22.808) So this would have been the female descendants of Chinggis himself and the wives of the important princes. So yeah, it's not all women. It's not all the women, but it's the women in specific roles who are present there. And so they do partake in that. And yeah, so we have a lot of information about them being involved still after this period late into the 13th century. but they no longer reach this absolute pinnacle that they had done in the middle of that century. Zaza (54:57.826) So during this pinnacle when Torreguena is kind of ruling the Mongol Empire, what was her title? Toby Jones (54:59.635) Hehe. Toby Jones (55:04.364) So she only had the... This is actually something I looked into. Is there an official title for a regent? And there doesn't seem to be. In Chinese you get the term like Dowager Empress. So that is an important role in China also. So that is used in the Chinese sources. In other sources, they just say that she sort of takes over. It doesn't... Zaza (55:11.679) Right. Toby Jones (55:29.836) Because they don't seem to have an equivalent themselves, they don't know what to call her. So her title is Toregeni Khatun, and Khatun simply, it essentially means royal lady, or lady, you know. So that title is for a high-status married woman. And that's, but that's applied to anyone who's married to a khan, for example. So it's not an elevation of her title. Zaza (55:46.198) status of married woman. And that's the point. Zaza (55:54.231) It's not the elevation of her title. Toby Jones (55:56.68) She doesn't get cold, there's no real term for empress. But the Mongols never really went big for very, very fancy titles. So you're a khan, you're a khatun, that's it. We've got it. Zaza (56:01.198) So yeah, she doesn't, but the models never really went big for titles. you know, your haan, your cartoon, that's it, you know, who's got it? So at that crucial moment when Torreguenez says to Chagatay, listen bro, I'm gonna run things for a while now, and he says that's fine. Do you think he said that because she was doing such a good job at it, because she was such an efficient ruler, or were there other motives at play? Toby Jones (56:21.156) Yep. Toby Jones (56:30.349) Yeah, I mean... Yeah, I mean, so he dies shortly after. So, you know, we don't know. You would expect perhaps that he would have taken over because he was the only one of. Zaza (56:42.35) I'm just thinking because it was such a patriarchal society nevertheless Why would this moment which was quite exceptional come? Why didn't he say no one of your sons or one of my brother or whoever uncle or me? Why were people like fine? Yes You keep going you're the ruler for Toby Jones (56:46.394) Yeah. Toby Jones (56:53.402) Yeah. Toby Jones (56:58.348) Well, I mean, one of those has to do with the size of the empire, of course. If people are all over the place, it's just easier to have the people who are already there at the center running things continue to run things, right? I mean, just for continuity. And as I mentioned, right, she was already running things essentially while her husband was incapacitado. And so in that sense, she continued to do that. And I think that probably... You're right, that has something to do with why she was, okay, she's been doing it already, she knows the drill, she's got this. It's actually interesting, there is a moment mentioned by one source that another one of Ogide's wives who was a bit older, she sort of tries to take on this position. And it's said that Torigene basically outmaneuvers her. because she's very clever, she also has sons, that makes a difference in a woman's power. If you have sons, legitimate sons, that strengthens your own power, right? And so the idea that she could be the regent also is sort of okay, because also she can pass it on to one of her own sons who's ready for it. And so this is also linked to the fact that there was a belief And it's mentioned in some sources that the rule should continue to be in the line of Ögedei. And so because he had sons and his wife who had given birth to those sons, Turgeni was there, it was like a natural position, right? And this is also part of Mongol society, that women were able to hold things together. after they're as widows, they often just held the sort of the husband's lands together, the husband's possessions together and doled them out as sort of, yeah, an attestee of the will kind of. And so in that sense, Mongol women had that position already. And even though this is on an imperial level, it sort of seems to play out in the same way. Toby Jones (59:13.888) So yeah, it's sort of, but you're right, this is the first moment where we have a regent who's a woman, but that happens a couple more times after that. So it sort of sets a bit of a precedent for the short term. Zaza (59:26.799) So it's sort of set as a precedent for the short term. So we talked about the witchcraft accusation and poisoning accusations. Were there any other kind of taboos pertaining more to women than to men at that time? What was absolutely forbidden for them to do? For example, maybe in regards to sexuality or marriage, you mentioned that the Mongols practiced polygamy. Toby Jones (59:32.292) Mm-hmm. Zaza (59:51.702) But presumably, women probably couldn't just have lovers or more husbands, even if they were powerful. Toby Jones (59:51.894) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (01:00:01.316) Yeah, I mean, that's sort of, you know, you do get some mentions in later sources about Mongol women sort of being accused of something like that. But yes, I think the funny thing is, in actually a society that where polygamy is very common, adultery is really seen as a very big negative thing. Zaza (01:00:12.078) being accused of something like that. But yes, I think the funny thing is. Zaza (01:00:25.23) seems a very big negative thing. And so we see all these different travel, European travelers, Chinese travelers, who mention that adultery is punished with death, right? That's something that is quite strong in that mention. And yeah, so I think there is a difference. Adultery, sorry, adultery by women is punished by death, or also by men. I see. Toby Jones (01:00:28.16) And so we see all these different travelers, European travelers, the Chinese travelers who mention that adultery is punished with death, right? So that's something that is quite strong in that mention. And yeah, so I think, you know, there are different... Toby Jones (01:00:49.848) It's not specified. So, you would assume that probably, I mean, we have plenty of information and men, because the men often, but this is the thing, right? Is that both Mongol men and Mongol women had slaves. And so who knows, the relationships with slaves is often not portrayed. And so, there may have been the fact that if you have a bunch of male slaves, who were working for you, you sort of take liberties with them, much as the men did with their female slaves. So, yeah, it's hard to... There's no way to know that stuff going on. But yeah, you can imagine that if the Mongol men were doing it with their female slaves, Mongol women probably thought, okay, we can do it too. So that's a little bit of a... I think that's a very... I think that adultery is seen in a very... Zaza (01:01:41.782) you know I think that's a very, I think that adultery is seen at a very elite level so you don't, you know, you don't sleep with your Khan's wife or whatever but if you're sleeping with a slave, I don't think that's really considered adultery so yeah, I think that sort of thing is all hush but I'm sure it's not Toby Jones (01:01:48.076) elite level. So you don't, you know, you don't sleep with your Khan's wife or whatever. But if you're sleeping with a slave, I don't think that's really considered adultery. So yeah, I think that sort of thing is all hush hush, but I'm sure it was going on. We do, you know, we do see that there are specific rituals and rites that are with that are females rites, right? So there's, you know, Toby Jones (01:02:17.884) together, right? And so in that sense, yeah, that continues throughout Mongolian society until, you know, the 20th century, you see, you know, there are anthropologists who are saying that, you know, you have specific women's rights and specific men's rights, and they should not sort of cross over. And so, yeah, there's definitely a separation in society that, yeah, probably should not be crossed. Zaza (01:02:36.598) So yeah, there's definitely a separation between societies that it probably should not be crossed. So what were some of those things that women did together, for example? Toby Jones (01:02:48.452) Yeah, it's sort of unclear about that, but I mentioned this sacrificial right that Hoelun was excluded from by her relatives, her husband's relatives. And so there was clearly this thing that says, the women go off and do this sacrificial right and Hoelun is excluded. And we see this in other moments too, but it's not talked about that much. And again, it's probably because it's... a woman's right and men were not allowed to be there and the men who are the ones who wrote the sources. So yeah, we don't hear that much about it. But yeah, there are some things that I think continue into later Mongol society that you can see probably has an older provenance from that period. So yeah, we don't really know exactly what these things were, but yeah, they definitely exist. Zaza (01:03:40.466) Obviously, we can't get past the institution of levered marriage. So if I understand it correctly, that meant that, for example, if somebody died, a man died, then his son could marry... No, wait, I'm confused already. Let's just have you maybe explain it before I butcher it a bit further. Okay. Toby Jones (01:03:45.532) Mm-hmm. Toby Jones (01:03:57.944) Now, if- You were pretty much there, actually. I think just one more step. But yeah, so the idea is that... Yeah, not just the son though. So it was the sort of any younger relative of the man. So either a younger brother, a son, a nephew, any of them could marry that man's widow or widows. So we actually often... Zaza (01:04:06.026) So the son could marry the stepmother. Is that it? Okay. Zaza (01:04:26.974) If they weren't directly related or... Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Toby Jones (01:04:29.568) Of course, yeah, sorry, if they're not the mother. Yeah, so we have many, many examples of this taking place. And for example, when Kublai was in China, he sort of tried to put the lever at marriage into Chinese law. And then later on, this was abandoned because it was like, OK, no, this is this is the thing that the Mongols do, but Chinese people don't do. And we shouldn't force it on them. And so there is this difference in. clear difference there. And this is something that's noticed again by all the travelers going there and saying, oh, this is mental, you know? And it's probably one of the harder things for Westerners who are used to certain marriage standards to get their head around. And so, yeah, you often have this sort of like, you know, the father's wives being almost like fought over by the sons as well. This Moirle cartoon who I mentioned. She had been a wife of Chinggis and two of his sons sort of were competing for her while she was still alive. While he was still alive, sorry. So there is this, you know, because Mongol men married women much younger than them in a lot of cases. And so for the sons, there may have been some competition for them based on, you know, they may have been beautiful or whatever, and they were around them. But then there's also the fact that the status of that woman. is elevated by the fact that she was married to the previous Khan or something like that. So there was a competition for them in that sense too, right, is that Mongol men were aware of the status that wife would bring them. And so you have this happening very often that they were sort of trying to make sure they get the, you know, even if they're a lot older than them and there's no chance of producing a son actually. And so in one of the, another article I've written, there's a woman in the Ilhanate in Iran who marries three generations of men. She marries the granddad, the son and the grandson. And yeah, it seems, and she actually has children with all of them as well. So yeah, so there's probably a bit of a high turn of, yeah, crazy, right? Zaza (01:06:40.206) Yeah, it seems that she actually had children. Whoa. Yeah. What a trooper. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just playing. Toby Jones (01:06:50.508) There must have been quite a high turnover in the... They must have been dying quite quickly, the men. But yeah, that's one of the hardest things to wrap your head around, I think, in the 21st century. Zaza (01:07:01.815) Do we know where this institution comes from? Toby Jones (01:07:04.532) Oh, it's very old. I mean, it's happened. The idea behind it is that the woman, when she comes over from her own family, right, I mentioned that they sort of leave their family, they come over and they're given things, right? They're given, as I mentioned again, they're given wealth, they're given positions, they're given people under them. And so the Mongols don't want to, or any people don't want to lose that. that the wealth that accumulated around that woman. And so by doing this, it keeps that wealth within the family, so to speak. And so part of it has to do a lot more, but also like I mentioned, the status, right? They don't wanna lose the status of being associated with this lineage and this woman in particular. So yeah, there's a status aspect, there's a wealth aspect too, right? Zaza (01:07:40.102) It keeps that wealth within the family. And so part of it has to do a lot more. But also, like I mentioned, the status, right? They don't want to lose the status of being associated with this. Toby Jones (01:08:00.484) because women will come with a lot of money will come with them, a lot of servants will come with them, and losing that could be, you know, if you think about it, maybe not so important once the Mongols were loaded, but in the earlier period certainly that, you know, that losing that wealth could have been quite damaging. And so in that sense, yeah, it's a strange institution somewhat, but it also seems to Zaza (01:08:08.826) be, you know, think about it, maybe not so important. Once the mongrel square load is, but in the earlier period, certainly that you know, that losing that wealth would have been quite damaging. And so in that sense, yeah, it's, it's a strange institution somewhat, but it also seems to make sense in there. All right, let's talk about the last woman. Toby Jones (01:08:29.272) make sense in their eyes. Zaza (01:08:36.202) powerful woman that we're going to talk about today and that's Organa cartoon. Toby Jones (01:08:40.591) Yep. Zaza (01:08:41.974) The independent ruler of the Chagadite Khanate for over a decade, you wrote. How did she... What was her story? How did she come to power? And keep it for that long? Toby Jones (01:08:46.712) Yep. Toby Jones (01:08:56.224) Yeah, I mean, again, this has something to do with, you know, basically her running things while her husband was not around or whatever. So these, you know, they don't have, again, like I mentioned, they don't have a specific title. We don't see this sort of codified in any way. But basically, her husband is killed. And she's sort of established, and this is the difference in that because she's not the ruler of the whole empire, right? She's the ruler of one section of the empire. And this is the Chagatayet Khanate or Ulus, the part of the empire under Chagatay and his descendants. It's huge. It's huge. It's most of Central Asia. Zaza (01:09:42.478) part of this entire under-characterized... You're right. Still a pretty big place. Toby Jones (01:09:51.608) Yeah, it's a massive realm to rule. And basically, the difference is that she is confirmed in this position by Mönke, who is the khan of the whole thing at the time. So basically, that's a bit different, because up until now, it hasn't really been, you know, the khan himself has not said, you're doing this. But we see that in this case, is that here, and also in the in the Jodgid khanate for a short time, there was a female regent called Borakchin. And so in these two moments, Muncha is saying, all right, you guys rule this realm. And yeah, that happens in Urgina's case. She rules it for quite a long time. And then basically she has a son, Mubarak Shah. So obviously a son converted to Islam. But there's a conflict at this time. when the central empire breaks down, there's a conflict over who should rule the Cagatay at Ulus. And basically, the different people contending for power try and get her on their side. So one of them, Arik Boka, actually has, she agrees to his election. He eventually loses to his brother Kublai, the very famous one. Kublai basically tries to establish his authority over the Chagatai, Ulus. And so he sends Khan to take over and they have to try and either get Orina on their side or sort of try and get rid of her. And most of them choose to try and get on side with her because she's very powerful. And so eventually one of them just marries her and then establishes her son as the sort of successor. Zaza (01:11:41.614) establishes her son as the successor. It doesn't work. The son is eventually exiled. This seems useless. And, yeah, Orovinia is basically more like a link to power for these competitors, for the Chagatai. So, we don't know. It's interesting. Unlike the others, we don't have so much information about her. Toby Jones (01:11:44.664) It doesn't work. The sun is eventually sort of exiled because he's sort of seen as useless. And yeah, Orgina is basically sort of more like, yeah, sort of link to power for these competitors for the Chagatai Ulus. So we don't know. It's interesting. Unlike the others, we don't have so much information about her, even though she's around for a long time. We do, for example, travelers. Zaza (01:12:12.168) We do, for example, travelers mention that she's in power at that stage. And even the realm is sometimes confused and called like Organia or something like that, like the world of Myrhor. And so, yeah, that's clearly a very important person. But, yeah, we don't have that much to go by based on, you know, things like her policies or whatever. We do know with Toragene, for example, she was getting rid of people. She was sending people to different places. Toby Jones (01:12:13.864) mentioned that she's in power at that stage, and even that the realm is sometimes confused and called like Organia or something like that, like ruled by her. And so, yeah, that's clearly a very important person. But yeah, we don't have that much to go by based on, you know, things like her policies or whatever. Like, we do know with Toragene, for example, she was getting rid of people, she was sending people to different places. She was, you know... There's clear policies that she was enacting. But with Orgina, we don't have that much. And that's possibly also because, as I mentioned, it's part of the greater empire. So we don't see yet these, you know, different Hanates making their own policies so much. Zaza (01:13:01.172) There's clear policies that Xi was enacting, but with Polina we don't have that much of it. Possibly also because, as I mentioned, part of the greater empire, so we don't see yet these different planning and making their own policies. And so he presumably did he have Chinese wives or did he marry Mongolian women or both? Toby Jones (01:13:16.64) Well, so this is the yeah both yes, so that this is the thing I mean, yeah Already very early on Chinggis So, you know that one of the ways that people submitted to the Mongols was by providing a wife So the Jin Emperor Sent one of his daughters the Tangut Emperor sent one of his daughters, right? So in order to try and keep the Mongols and that was before you know, they were taken over. So this was Zaza (01:13:19.191) Okay. Toby Jones (01:13:45.412) like, okay, we're your vassals, but leave us alone. And so by providing, by giving a daughter in marriage to Chinggis that was trying to keep him sort of away from them. And so, yeah, they married early on women from all over the place. Kublai has a very famous wife, Chaby, who is extremely powerful. She's very well known. Zaza (01:14:10.012) She is very famous, she is very powerful, she is very well-known and she never really comes to the region but she seems to be the one who inspires Mubila to take power. She is Mongolian. Toby Jones (01:14:12.056) And she never really becomes regent, but she's seen as the one who sort of inspires Kublai to take power. She's the one saying, she's Mongolian, yeah. I can't remember actually what family she's from. I've forgotten. But yeah, so as I mentioned, they have these families who they regularly marry back into. And so these families become very powerful, right? They become very influential. Zaza (01:14:34.421) Yes. Yeah. Toby Jones (01:14:39.18) And so Chabi is very, very powerful. And yeah, she basically is also seen as somewhat of the, she's the one saying, okay, who's gonna rule next and trying to get Kublai to decide on that. And in the Yuan dynasty, which is not my forte, but there you have also a lot of women who basically are, yeah, it's more like they're sort of. the power decided, they're trying to decide who takes over next. So you don't really have, you have some regency positions for a short time, but it's more like they're involved, and this happens elsewhere too, but they're heavily involved in deciding who takes over next. So that becomes a bit more like, you know, also like in other societies, right, is that the women can have sort of more of the behind the scenes influence in trying to establish, you know, who the next king would be or whatever. Zaza (01:15:21.902) both in deciding who takes over next. So that becomes a bit more like, you know. Toby Jones (01:15:36.912) So yeah, Mongolian women continue to have a huge presence in every single khanate. That's something to not forget. They just don't get quite to the same level as the previous ones did. But yeah, I mean, even in the Ilkhanate in Iran, you had one Mongol woman who was established as the ruler in the 1330s. And she is the only woman actually as ruler ruler, right? She's... given her name is said in the Friday prayer, her name is put on the coinage, but she lasts only for a few months and she's got rid of it. But yeah, so it's weird that you sort of have this moment where in Iran the Mongolian women had not had this regency position, but by the end of that time, they're starting to the... a lot of the princes are dead and there's not a lot of possible chengisid options. this woman takes over, Saatibeg, her name is, and she rules for a very short time, sadly. But yeah, this does happen. And also, basically, under Mongol influence, you have a lot of sort of regional powers who have women become rulers. And so this sort of seems to have created a little bit of a trickle-down effect in that other dynasties end up having women as rulers. underneath the Mongols. And so you've got quite this interest, this seems to develop from that. Zaza (01:17:13.78) I wanted to ask you about Jesus Christ I think I forgot no I have it I have it just give me a five seconds I don't remember right now let's go back to for a moment to Toby Jones (01:17:27.9) I think, well there was the warrior princess thing I think you wanted too. Zaza (01:17:30.742) Yes, yes, I wanted to ask that, but I wanted to ask something a little bit more also pertinent to what we were just discussing. But my memory fails me right now. Anyway, yes, warrior princesses or Mongol warrior women. Was that a thing or was that not a thing? Or, for example, when you were talking about Temujin's mother being alone, yes, she had servants and probably a larger Toby Jones (01:17:34.442) Okay. Zaza (01:17:59.358) secret history of the Mongols portrays. But on the other hand, what was the case when, for example, most of the men left for conquest in that period and the women were left in charge? Weren't they supposed to kind of be able to defend themselves from intruders or they always left enough kind of guards behind for them to have protection? How did that work? Do you think it was possible that they... in the upbringing of girls and women, they included some sort of basics of self-defense, archery. Toby Jones (01:18:34.04) Well, I think that the fact that they certainly could ride and I think they could probably shoot as well. I certainly wouldn't doubt that they could fight if they needed to be. There is one moment, I think, that is described in The Secret History where one of the women sort of fends off someone who's trying to attack or trying to capture Tolui, Chinggis's youngest son. And she's like... you know, she manages to fight him off until some men arrive. But we actually have very, very little evidence of any Mongol women fighting in any sort of actual way that leading is different. Right. So we do have evidence that, you know, like you said, when the men left, the women ran the camps. And this is a political social role, but not a military one in very clear way. Yeah, there's evidence that Mongol women were sort of at least seen by outsiders as part of the forces because when they would be far away on their horses, the hats that they wore on their heads were seen, would look like, you know, a spear or something like that from a distance. And so there's, we have European sources who talk about these, you know, like looking like there's a lot more. Zaza (01:19:34.418) seen by outsiders as part of the forces because when they would be far away on their forces, the hats that they wore on their heads would look like a spear or something like that from a distance. And so we have European sources talking about this, looking like there's a lot more armies than there were, a lot more troops in the army than there were. Toby Jones (01:19:56.38) armies than there were, a lot more troops in the army than there were. But we don't have any evidence of that apart from one woman who's very, very famous called Kutulun. And she's the one who shows up, for example, in the Netflix show on Marco Polo, etc. She is a really, really fascinating character, but a lot of legend exists around her more than anything. Zaza (01:20:17.246) character but a lot of legend is around her more than anything but we do know that she was an actual military leader. She's sort of famous for being this... so Marco Polo is the one who talks copper the most and his account is definitely tinged with myth and so there's this idea that she was... Toby Jones (01:20:22.5) But we do know that she was an actual military leader. And she's sort of famous for being this. So Marco Polo is the one who talks about her the most. And his account is definitely tinged with myth. And so there's this idea that she was a famous wrestler and that she would only marry the man who beat her. in wrestling and the ones who lost had to give her father horses and so her father becomes extremely wealthy because of this so her father is Kaidu who actually rules one of the Ulus's himself and she is sort of seen as this very powerful woman and then finally one of them beats her and then they get married and it's you know happily ever after Actually, not the case very sadly. She's Zaza (01:20:59.158) uh... Toby Jones (01:21:17.264) She was heavily involved in the politics of that khanate. This was the Ogodeid Ulus, which emerges after the Ogodeids are kicked out of the rule of the general empire. They end up in Central Asia and they sort of start their own realm there. And she is the daughter of Kaidu, this very famous Ogodeid who constantly fought with Kublai in the East. And she basically is involved in the politics and she's trying to sort of get one of her own brothers. to be the next ruler and then others are trying to get rid of her. And so she's involved in all this and there's some moment where one of the contenders for the throne basically says, oh, you should be, you know, with your, you know, sewing and you shouldn't be with, you shouldn't be involved in politics basically. She is heavily involved and this ends up leading to actually she is killed and her husband and her two sons, I think, by one of the sort of contenders for the throne. So she's one of the only, she's the only one I think that really we have evidence for being a military figure in that way. So, yeah, the political role was always strong, but the military role I have not really seen. It's often used as a sort of like, again, like a trope about a man being bad at warfare, is that he fights like a woman or something like that. And so, yeah, then again, you see this sort of like... Zaza (01:22:15.97) So she's one of the only, she's the only one I think that really we have evidence for being a military figure in that way. So yeah, the political role was always strong, but the military role, I have not really seen. It's often used as a sort of like, again, like a trope about a man being bad at warfare, that he fights like a woman or something like that. And so, yeah, then again, you see this sort of like, Toby Jones (01:22:45.112) you know, recasting of the roles saying like, you can't even fight, you fight like a woman or you're like a granny or something like that. And so yeah, there is this assumption that, you know, about women's roles and fighting is not one of them. But I very much, if you compare them to, you know, someone who worked on a farm or something like that, I think they'd probably be able to handle themselves pretty well. Zaza (01:22:56.419) There is this assumption that about women's roles and fighting is not one of them. But I very much, if you compare them to someone who works on a farm or something like that, I think they'd probably be able to handle themselves pretty well if they're used to writing, shooting, and stuff like that. What was her name again? Toby Jones (01:23:13.917) if they're used to riding and shooting and things like that. Toby Jones (01:23:19.432) Kutulun. Zaza (01:23:21.163) So was this just a tall tale by Marco Polo? There's probably no truth of her doing UFC with the rest of the lads for, or. There's, there's, there's. Toby Jones (01:23:29.888) Yeah, there's a lot of legend that has emerged around it. And there's an article about... No, he's the only source that mentions the wrestling. Yeah. And he is an interesting character generally, and sometimes it's difficult to believe him. And so in this case, it very much seems like, you know, sort of, you know, like a... Zaza (01:23:36.702) But is he the only source that mentions this? The only source that mentions this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I meant. Toby Jones (01:23:58.448) And just a mythical, a nice mythical story to include about this faraway land where he's never, you know, he's never been, I guess he actually had been there. But yeah, so in that sense, other sources do mention her and they mention her in a military capacity. So of course, it's not impossible that she was also a wrestler. You know, if she's, if she's famous for fighting, you know, what's the difference? She's fighting with a weapon and fighting with herself. Yeah. Zaza (01:24:07.128) Hmm Toby Jones (01:24:26.7) In that sense that it's not impossible, but it's also not. We don't, we don't know enough to say that Marco Polo. Yeah. Oh yeah. She was a wrestler, but we do know that she was an active political and military figure in that realm. Zaza (01:24:42.554) Was Marco Polo not a very reliable source when it comes to the Kublai Khan's court and yeah. Toby Jones (01:24:50.829) Well, so this is the thing, he's reliable in certain areas. And there was a big debate in Mongolian studies, it was probably around 50, 60 years ago, regarding whether there was an article, did Marco Polo go to China? And it has been proven convincingly that yes, he did go to China. There's too much in there that is too accurate for us to completely throw him out. But he did make up some of his journeys, especially certain parts of the world that he just seems to talk about as very fantastical. So yeah, Marco Polo tends to be taken with a pinch of salt, let's say, which is kind of... Sorry, I realized I made an unintentional pun because he... think he was in charge of the salt production of a certain area. Yeah, it's an unintentional one, unfortunately. But he was actually, yeah, so in that sense, he... So he's not mentioned by Chinese sources, which is why people question whether or not... Yeah, no. And he's... Because he's actually... I think it's just his status wasn't particularly high. So he was at the court, but... Zaza (01:25:45.614) puns are welcome on this podcast. Even better. Zaza (01:25:58.182) at all. Toby Jones (01:26:09.756) There were other Europeans who came to the court too, so it wasn't like he was the only one. It would be complete shock to see this Italian guy show up. But in that sense, that's why people were sort of like, hang on, why isn't he mentioned by the Chinese sources? But a lot of the other things that he talks about are corroborated in Chinese sources, in Persian sources. So yeah, it's clear that he did go. Zaza (01:26:14.046) on one, it would be complete shock to see this. Toby Jones (01:26:38.756) But it's definitely some of the other aspects of his accounts are a little bit fantastic. Zaza (01:26:46.066) I think this will probably be a good point to come to a conclusion with our good old friend John of Plano Carpini who always makes an appearance. I just wanted to know since we're speaking of unreliable European accounts, what did he say about Mongolian women, if anything? Toby Jones (01:27:07.168) I'm trying to remember. I mean, he has this sort of... I can't remember if it's him or William of Rubruk. So they had these two... But they talk a lot about the witchcraft aspect. I think it's William of Rubruk who talks a lot about that. And... Zaza (01:27:15.562) Okay, I'll take him as well. I'll take him as well. Zaza (01:27:27.543) So this guy was also like John of Plano-Krapini, he was also like a western diplomat monk as well. Toby Jones (01:27:31.672) Yes, a monk, yes, yeah, also a monk, yeah, and he traveled in the 1250s. So Plano Carpini went in the 1240s, Rubruk went in the 1250s. Well, John Plano Carpini actually was the one who talks about Torreghene continuing to rule when Gujuc was actually installed, because he's the one who says that, oh, he was installed, but she continues to rule. And so there's often, you know, a lot of... European travelers to the Mongols are mainly shocked about women being in the in the room in the room Not room in the tent and so women also are you know, they're drinking with them That's a big difference for them right is that they see these women the women are the one offering them alcohol In the Timurid era you have travelers Spanish travelers who are shocked by the amount that women are drinking and they're visiting and they think, okay, and they're not actually meeting the khan, they're meeting the khan's wife and the khan's wife is the one who's hanging out with them and drinking with them. And so that is a big shock to the European travelers. But yeah, William of Rubruk talks about the women in particular in this sort of witchcraft aspect and the different things that they were doing to try and, for example, make sure that they had a son Toby Jones (01:28:56.352) very interesting, yeah, the methods of the shamans to try and get rid of a witch and things like that. And yeah, like sort of turning a piece of felt into an animal. And yeah, it's very, very interesting. And it's, yeah, with these Europeans, there's always this cultural confusion that is mixed up in all their... Zaza (01:29:10.326) Yeah, it's very, very interesting. And it's, yeah, the Europeans, there's always this cultural confusion that is mixed up in all their, what they say about, about mongol society. It's clearly something that is very, very interesting, but it seems to the Europeans who are going there. Tobias, thank you so much. This was absolutely amazing. Toby Jones (01:29:23.036) what they say about Mongol society. So this is clearly something that is very, very interesting, but confusing to the Europeans who are going there. Zaza (01:29:39.186) I'm probably going to call you up in like two months again. And then. Toby Jones (01:29:42.797) This is like something I could talk about for a long time as well. Because I remember as I was finishing, I was like, we can't talk about the fact that they were drinking. We can't miss that. They were drinking with the guys, you know, like it was just a normal part of their society. And I love that fact, you know, that is probably the, you know, thing. Okay, we can, you know, just hang out with them, chat with them and have a drink with them. Zaza (01:29:46.228) What? Zaza (01:29:52.058) Yeah, yes, yes. Zaza (01:30:05.794) So does that mean that women in Europe at the time couldn't drink alcohol with the dudes? Or... Toby Jones (01:30:11.64) Well, it's not about, it's usually about the separation, right? Is that that's quite common to have the men and women separated, even, you know, this is not a specific thing to specific cultures that often happen, right? Is that they would be separated often, you would, you know, and this is the thing is that these ambassadors were wanting to talk politics and, you know, the women are there and they didn't expect that to be the case. Right. So there's. Zaza (01:30:16.915) I see. Toby Jones (01:30:38.36) a lot of sort of cultural expectation that ends up being, oh, okay, I didn't really understand that was gonna be the case. And I guess in Europe, it probably would not have been seen as the right thing for a woman to be drinking a lot. But it definitely seems to be the case in Mongol society that was not a problem. Zaza (01:31:00.898) Oh, I'm going to have to do some more of a Wikipedia reading. So I'm even better prepared next time when we meet, which is probably going to be soon. Where can people find your work? Do you still have a Twitter account that you made shortly after our last episode? Toby Jones (01:31:15.361) Yeah, so I'm on X as it's now known of course, but yes, X formerly known as aka Twitter. I am there, Tobias Bahadur, so a nice Mongol title that I've adopted for myself. Yeah, and I'm certainly not a Bahadur, which is like a hero, so yeah, definitely not. Zaza (01:31:19.303) X. Yeah, what a stupid name. Yeah. Zaza (01:31:29.722) Awesome. Toby Jones (01:31:36.924) I thought it would be nice to keep that. So yeah, you can find me on there and I post about different articles that I'm writing, different conferences that I'm going to, and yeah, you can follow me there. Zaza (01:31:48.106) Very last question. What do you think of the Marco Polo Netflix TV show? Toby Jones (01:31:54.241) Uh, did it go to two seasons or was it just one? Zaza (01:31:56.844) I don't know, I couldn't finish the first season, I thought it was so bad, but I want to hear it from you, the expert. Maybe you liked it. I don't want to put any words into your mouth. Toby Jones (01:32:00.559) Yeah! Toby Jones (01:32:04.784) I certainly, I would, no, I would certainly encourage everyone to watch an episode just to see Marco Polo doing some mixed martial arts, but yeah, that was a bit of a shocker for me. But yeah, I don't know, like, I think the Kublai character is really interesting, but yeah. Zaza (01:32:26.454) That's the best part of the show for me at least. Toby Jones (01:32:29.376) Yeah, I mean, Benedict Wong is a very good actor, but yeah, I don't, I would not recommend it for someone who wants to get more info. Zaza (01:32:37.326) Oh, come on, this pretty guy just like prances into the court and then he's just doing kung fu and hanging out in the harem. Come on. Toby Jones (01:32:42.412) Yeah. Yeah, well, it's, yeah, what's it that's what's interesting is that it actually the show very much buys into his account. And unlike, yeah, it's the various things that have come out about the Mongols. So this film, Mongol, very, yeah, which is very, very good, very interesting that Zaza (01:33:01.311) The Russian film. Toby Jones (01:33:05.924) basically buys entirely into the Secret Histories account. So you have this sort of like, you know, they choose a primary source and they go, yep, and they believe everything that the primary source says, which is kind of a fun thing. I mean, at least you get like somewhat more of the primary. Of course, Barko Polo doesn't mention that he does Kung Fu, but you know. Zaza (01:33:24.79) Well, I just wanted to ask, does the source mention that he was practicing with a blind Kung Fu master and hanging out in the harem 24x7? Toby Jones (01:33:32.725) Well, it's also quite interesting because the guy they chose to be the blind Kung Fu master, his nickname is Bayan Hundred Eyes. So he was actually famous for seeing everything, right? And so they chose it as this sort of like ironic nickname, like Little John or something, I guess. Zaza (01:33:52.883) A little pun, a little pun. Zaza (01:33:59.063) So he was an actual character, that's not an invention of the- right Toby Jones (01:34:00.724) Oh yeah, no, he's a real guy, but yeah, famous for taking a lot of the song cities. But yeah, it's funny that they chose to sort of make this guy an ironic character almost. Bizarre, but yeah. Zaza (01:34:04.908) Yeah. Zaza (01:34:16.962) Well, thanks again so much. And yeah, I really hope we do this again pretty soon. I mean, we will if you're going to have time. And if that other person is not going to snatch you up and force you to do a Mongol podcast, which I hope they won't. Toby Jones (01:34:20.438) No problem. Anytime. Yeah. Hahaha Zaza (01:34:35.458) Thanks again. Awesome. Toby Jones (01:34:35.531) I'm happy to come back. So yeah, no problem.