Latest / Philosophy and Faith / 10 - Book of Mormon - Joseph Smith Jr
Transcript
- 0:00Speaker 1: Second Nephi, chapters twelve to seventeen. Chapter twelve the word
- 0:07Speaker 1: that Isaiah, the son of Amos, saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
- 0:13Speaker 1: And it shall come to pass in the last days
- 0:16Speaker 1: when the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established
- 0:19Speaker 1: in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted
- 0:22Speaker 1: above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.
- 0:26Speaker 1: And many people shall go and say, come ye, and
- 0:30Speaker 1: let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
- 0:33Speaker 1: to the house of the God of Jacob, and he
- 0:35Speaker 1: will teach us of his ways, and we will walk
- 0:38Speaker 1: in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth
- 0:42Speaker 1: the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem,
- 0:46Speaker 1: and he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke
- 0:49Speaker 1: many people, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
- 0:54Speaker 1: and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift
- 0:59Speaker 1: upsword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O,
- 1:04Speaker 1: House of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in
- 1:07Speaker 1: the light of the Lord. Yea, come, for ye have
- 1:11Speaker 1: all gone astray, every one to his wicked ways. Therefore,
- 1:16Speaker 1: O Lord, thou hast forsaken thy people the House of Jacob,
- 1:21Speaker 1: because they be replenished from the east, and hearken unto
- 1:25Speaker 1: soothsayers like the philistines, and they please themselves and the
- 1:29Speaker 1: children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver
- 1:32Speaker 1: and gold. Neither is there any end of their treasures.
- 1:36Speaker 1: Their land is also full of horses, neither is there
- 1:39Speaker 1: any end of their chariots. Their land is also full
- 1:42Speaker 1: of idols. They worship the work of their own hands,
- 1:46Speaker 1: that which their own fingers have made. And the mean
- 1:50Speaker 1: man boweth not down, and the great man humbleth himself not.
- 1:55Speaker 1: Therefore forgive him not, O, ye wicked ones, enter in
- 2:00Speaker 1: to the rock, and hide thee in the dust. For
- 2:03Speaker 1: the fear of the Lord and the glory of his
- 2:05Speaker 1: majesty shall smite thee. And it shall come to pass
- 2:09Speaker 1: that the lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and
- 2:12Speaker 1: the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the
- 2:15Speaker 1: Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the
- 2:19Speaker 1: day of the Lord of Hosts soon cometh upon all nations. YEA,
- 2:23Speaker 1: upon every one, YEA, upon the proud and lofty, and
- 2:28Speaker 1: upon every one who is lifted up, and he shall
- 2:31Speaker 1: be brought low, YEA. And the day of the Lord
- 2:35Speaker 1: shall come upon all the cedars of Lebanon, for they
- 2:38Speaker 1: are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks
- 2:41Speaker 1: of Bishan, and upon all the high mountains, and upon
- 2:45Speaker 1: all the hills, and upon all the nations which are
- 2:48Speaker 1: lifted up, and upon every people, and upon every high tower,
- 2:52Speaker 1: and upon every fenced wall, and upon all the ships
- 2:56Speaker 1: of the sea, and upon all the ships of Tarsish,
- 3:00Speaker 1: and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man
- 3:04Speaker 1: shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall
- 3:08Speaker 1: be made low, And the Lord alone shall be exalted
- 3:12Speaker 1: in that day, and the idols he shall utterly abolish,
- 3:17Speaker 1: and they shall go into the holes of the rocks
- 3:20Speaker 1: and into the caves of the earth, for the fear
- 3:22Speaker 1: of the Lord shall come upon them, and the glory
- 3:25Speaker 1: of his majesty shall smite them, when he ariseth to
- 3:29Speaker 1: shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall
- 3:33Speaker 1: cast his idols of silver and his idols of gold,
- 3:36Speaker 1: which he hath made for himself to worship, to the
- 3:39Speaker 1: moles and to the bats, to go into the clefts
- 3:43Speaker 1: of the rocks and into the tops of the ragged rocks.
- 3:46Speaker 1: For the fear of the Lord shall come upon them,
- 3:49Speaker 1: and the Majesty of his glory shall smite them when
- 3:52Speaker 1: he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Cease ye from
- 3:57Speaker 1: man whose breath is in his nostrils, For wherein is
- 4:01Speaker 1: he to be accounted of Chapter thirteen. For behold, the Lord,
- 4:07Speaker 1: the Lord of Hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and
- 4:11Speaker 1: from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole staff
- 4:14Speaker 1: of bread, and the whole stay of water, the mighty
- 4:18Speaker 1: man and the man of war, the judge and the prophet,
- 4:22Speaker 1: and the prudent, and the ancient, the captain of fifty
- 4:27Speaker 1: and the honorable man, and the counselor, and the cunning artificer,
- 4:30Speaker 1: and the eloquent orator. And I will give children unto
- 4:34Speaker 1: them to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.
- 4:38Speaker 1: And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another,
- 4:41Speaker 1: and every one by his neighbor. The child shall behave
- 4:45Speaker 1: himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honorable.
- 4:50Speaker 1: When a man shall take hold of his brother of
- 4:52Speaker 1: the house of his father, and shall say, thou hast clothing,
- 4:56Speaker 1: be thou our ruler, and let not this ruin come
- 4:59Speaker 1: under thy hand. In that day shall he swear saying,
- 5:03Speaker 1: I will not be a healer, for in my house
- 5:06Speaker 1: there is neither bread nor clothing. Make me not a
- 5:09Speaker 1: ruler of the people. For Jerusalem is ruined and Judah
- 5:13Speaker 1: is fallen, because their tongues and their doings have been
- 5:17Speaker 1: against the Lord. To provoke the eyes of his glory.
- 5:21Speaker 1: The show of their countenance doth witness against them, and
- 5:24Speaker 1: doth declare their sin to be even as sodom, and
- 5:28Speaker 1: they cannot hide it. Woe unto their souls, for they
- 5:32Speaker 1: have rewarded evil unto themselves. Say unto the righteous that
- 5:37Speaker 1: it is well with them, for they shall eat the
- 5:40Speaker 1: fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked, for they
- 5:44Speaker 1: shall perish, for the reward of their hands shall be
- 5:47Speaker 1: upon them. And my people children are their oppressors, and
- 5:52Speaker 1: women rule over them. O my people, They who lead thee,
- 5:57Speaker 1: cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths.
- 6:01Speaker 1: The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge
- 6:05Speaker 1: the people. The Lord will enter into judgment with the
- 6:08Speaker 1: ancients of his people and the princes thereof. For ye
- 6:11Speaker 1: have eaten up the vineyard and the spoil of the
- 6:14Speaker 1: poor in your houses. What mean ye ye beat my
- 6:18Speaker 1: people to pieces and grind the faces of the poor saith,
- 6:21Speaker 1: the Lord, God of hosts. Moreover, the Lord saith because
- 6:26Speaker 1: the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with stretched
- 6:30Speaker 1: forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go,
- 6:34Speaker 1: and making a tinkling with their feet. Therefore the Lord
- 6:38Speaker 1: shall smite with a scab the crown of the head
- 6:41Speaker 1: of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover
- 6:44Speaker 1: their secret parts. In that day, the Lord will take
- 6:48Speaker 1: away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments and calls, and
- 6:52Speaker 1: round tires like the moon, the chains and the bracelets,
- 6:56Speaker 1: and the mufflers, the bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs,
- 7:00Speaker 1: and the headbands, and the tablets, and the ear rings,
- 7:04Speaker 1: the rings and nose jewels, the changeable suits of apparel,
- 7:08Speaker 1: and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
- 7:13Speaker 1: the glasses, and the fine linen and hoods, and the veils.
- 7:17Speaker 1: And it shall come to pass, instead of sweet smell,
- 7:21Speaker 1: there shall be stink, and instead of a girdle a rent,
- 7:25Speaker 1: and instead of well set hair baldness, and instead of
- 7:29Speaker 1: a stomacher, a girding of sackcloth, burning instead of beauty,
- 7:35Speaker 1: thy men shall fall by the sword and thy mighty
- 7:38Speaker 1: in the war, and her gaits shall lament and mourn,
- 7:41Speaker 1: and she shall be desolate, and shall sit upon the
- 7:45Speaker 1: ground Chapter fourteen. And in that day seven women shall
- 7:55Speaker 1: take hold of one man, saying, we will eat our
- 7:58Speaker 1: own bread and wear our own apparel. Only let us
- 8:01Speaker 1: be called by thy name to take away our reproach.
- 8:04Speaker 1: In that day shall the branch of the Lord be
- 8:07Speaker 1: beautiful and glorious, the fruit of the earth excellent and
- 8:10Speaker 1: comely to them that are escaped of Israel. And it
- 8:13Speaker 1: shall come to pass, they that are left in Zion
- 8:16Speaker 1: and remain in Jerusalem shall be called holy, every one
- 8:20Speaker 1: that is written among the living in Jerusalem. When the
- 8:24Speaker 1: Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters
- 8:26Speaker 1: of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem
- 8:30Speaker 1: from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment and
- 8:33Speaker 1: by the spirit of burning. And the Lord will create
- 8:36Speaker 1: upon every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and upon her
- 8:40Speaker 1: assemblies a cloud of smoke by day, and the shining
- 8:43Speaker 1: of a flaming fire by night. For upon all the
- 8:47Speaker 1: glory of Zion shall be a defense, and there shall
- 8:51Speaker 1: be a tabernacle, for a shadow in the daytime from
- 8:54Speaker 1: the heat, and for a place of refuge, and a
- 8:57Speaker 1: covert from storm and from rain. Chapter fifteen. And then
- 9:03Speaker 1: will I sing to my well beloved, a song of
- 9:06Speaker 1: my beloved touching his vineyard. My well beloved hath a
- 9:11Speaker 1: vineyard in a very fruitful hill. And he fenced it
- 9:15Speaker 1: and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with
- 9:19Speaker 1: the choicest vine and built a tower in the midst
- 9:22Speaker 1: of it, and also made a wine press therein. And
- 9:25Speaker 1: he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it
- 9:28Speaker 1: brought forth wild grapes. And now, o, inhabitants of Jerusalem
- 9:34Speaker 1: and men of Judah, Judge, I pray you betwixt me
- 9:38Speaker 1: and my vineyard. What could have been done more to
- 9:41Speaker 1: my vineyard than I have not done in it? Wherefore,
- 9:45Speaker 1: when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, it
- 9:48Speaker 1: brought forth wild grapes. And now go too, I will
- 9:53Speaker 1: tell you what I will do to my vineyard. I
- 9:55Speaker 1: will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be
- 9:58Speaker 1: eaten up. And I will break down the wall thereof,
- 10:01Speaker 1: and it shall be trodden down, and I will lay
- 10:04Speaker 1: at waste it shall not be pruned nor digged, but
- 10:08Speaker 1: there shall come up briars and thorns. I will also
- 10:11Speaker 1: command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
- 10:15Speaker 1: For the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts is the
- 10:17Speaker 1: house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant.
- 10:21Speaker 1: And he looked for judgment, and behold oppression for righteousness.
- 10:26Speaker 1: But behold a cry. Woe unto them that join house
- 10:31Speaker 1: to house, till there can be no place that they
- 10:34Speaker 1: may be placed alone in the midst of the earth.
- 10:37Speaker 1: In mine ears, said the Lord of Hosts, of a truth,
- 10:40Speaker 1: many houses shall be desolate, and great and fair cities
- 10:44Speaker 1: without inhabitant. Yea ten acres of vineyards shall yield one bath,
- 10:50Speaker 1: and the seed of a homer shall yield in epha.
- 10:53Speaker 1: Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning,
- 10:57Speaker 1: that they may follow strong drink and continue until night,
- 11:01Speaker 1: and wine inflame them. And the harp and the viole,
- 11:05Speaker 1: the tabret, and pipe and wine are in their feasts.
- 11:09Speaker 1: But they regard not the work of the Lord, neither
- 11:12Speaker 1: consider the operation of his hands. Therefore, my people are
- 11:16Speaker 1: gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge, and their
- 11:20Speaker 1: honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
- 11:25Speaker 1: Therefore Hell hath enlarged herself and opened her mouth without measure,
- 11:30Speaker 1: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and
- 11:33Speaker 1: he that rejoiceth shall descend into it. And the mean
- 11:37Speaker 1: man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall
- 11:40Speaker 1: be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled.
- 11:45Speaker 1: But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment,
- 11:48Speaker 1: and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
- 11:53Speaker 1: Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the
- 11:56Speaker 1: waste places of the fat ones, shall strangers ease eat.
- 12:00Speaker 1: Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity
- 12:04Speaker 1: and sin, as it were with a cart rope, that say,
- 12:09Speaker 1: let him make speed, hasten his work, that we may
- 12:12Speaker 1: see it, and let the counsel of the Holy One
- 12:15Speaker 1: of Israel, draw nigh and come that we may know it.
- 12:18Speaker 1: Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil,
- 12:22Speaker 1: that put darkness for light and light for darkness, that
- 12:26Speaker 1: put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe unto
- 12:30Speaker 1: the wise in their own eyes and prudent in their
- 12:33Speaker 1: own sight, Woe unto the mighty, to drink wine, and
- 12:37Speaker 1: men of strength to mingle. Strong drink, who justify the
- 12:41Speaker 1: wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the
- 12:45Speaker 1: righteous from him. Therefore, as the fire devoureth the stubble,
- 12:50Speaker 1: and the flame consumeth the chaff, their roots shall be rottenness,
- 12:54Speaker 1: and their blossoms shall go up as dust, because they
- 12:57Speaker 1: have cast away the law of the Lord of Host
- 13:00Speaker 1: and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
- 13:03Speaker 1: Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people.
- 13:07Speaker 1: And he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and
- 13:10Speaker 1: hath smitten them, and that hills did tremble, and their
- 13:14Speaker 1: carcasses were torn in the midst of the streets. For
- 13:17Speaker 1: all this, his anger is not turned away, but his
- 13:21Speaker 1: hand is stretched out still, and he will lift up
- 13:25Speaker 1: an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss
- 13:29Speaker 1: unto them from the end of the earth. And behold,
- 13:32Speaker 1: they shall come with speeds swiftly. None shall be weary
- 13:36Speaker 1: nor stumble among them. None shall slumber nor sleep. Neither
- 13:40Speaker 1: shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the
- 13:43Speaker 1: latchet of their shoes be broken. Whose arrows shall be sharp,
- 13:48Speaker 1: and all their bows bent and their horses hoofs shall
- 13:52Speaker 1: be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind,
- 13:55Speaker 1: their roaring like a lion. They shall roar like young lions. Yea,
- 14:00Speaker 1: they shall roar and lay hold of the prey, and
- 14:04Speaker 1: shall carry away safe, and none shall deliver. And in
- 14:09Speaker 1: that day they shall roar against them like the roaring
- 14:12Speaker 1: of the sea. And if they look unto the land,
- 14:14Speaker 1: behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in
- 14:18Speaker 1: the heavens. Thereof Chapter sixteen, in the year that King
- 14:24Speaker 1: Usiah died, I saw also the Lord sitting upon a
- 14:28Speaker 1: throne high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
- 14:33Speaker 1: Above it stood the seraphim. Each one had six wings.
- 14:37Speaker 1: With twain he covered his face, and with twain he
- 14:40Speaker 1: covered his feet, And with twain he did fly. And
- 14:44Speaker 1: one cried unto another and said, Holy, Holy, Holy, is
- 14:49Speaker 1: the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of
- 14:52Speaker 1: his glory. And the posts of the door moved at
- 14:56Speaker 1: the voice of him that cried, and the house filled
- 14:59Speaker 1: with smoke. Then said, I woe is unto me, for
- 15:04Speaker 1: I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips,
- 15:09Speaker 1: and I dwell in the midst of a people of
- 15:11Speaker 1: unclean lips. For mine eyes have seen the King, the
- 15:15Speaker 1: Lord of Hosts. Then flew one of the seraphim unto me,
- 15:19Speaker 1: having a live coal in his hand, which he had
- 15:22Speaker 1: taken with the tongs from off the altar. And he
- 15:26Speaker 1: laid it upon my mouth and said, Lo, this has
- 15:30Speaker 1: touched thy lips, and thine iniquity is taken away, and
- 15:34Speaker 1: thy sin purged. Also I heard the voice of the
- 15:38Speaker 1: Lord saying, whom shall I send and who will go
- 15:42Speaker 1: for us? Then I said, here am I send me?
- 15:48Speaker 1: And he said, go and tell this people hear ye, indeed,
- 15:54Speaker 1: but they understood not, and see ye indeed, but they
- 15:59Speaker 1: perceived not. Make the heart of this people fat, and
- 16:03Speaker 1: make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, lest they
- 16:07Speaker 1: see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and
- 16:10Speaker 1: understand with their heart, and be converted and be healed.
- 16:14Speaker 1: Then said I Lord, how long? And he said, until
- 16:20Speaker 1: the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man,
- 16:25Speaker 1: and the land be utterly desolate, And the Lord have
- 16:29Speaker 1: removed men far away, For there shall be a great
- 16:32Speaker 1: forsaking in the midst of the land. But yet there
- 16:36Speaker 1: shall be a tenth and they shall return and shall
- 16:39Speaker 1: be eaten as a teal tree, and as an oak
- 16:43Speaker 1: whose substance is in them when they cast their leaves.
- 16:47Speaker 1: So the Holy seed shall be the substance thereof Chapter seventeen.
- 16:53Speaker 1: And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz,
- 16:56Speaker 1: the son of Jotham, the son of Usiah, king of Judah,
- 17:01Speaker 1: that Resin, king of Syria, and Peca, the son of Ramalia,
- 17:05Speaker 1: King of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it,
- 17:09Speaker 1: but could not prevail against it. And it was told
- 17:13Speaker 1: the House of David, saying Syria is confederate with Ephraim.
- 17:18Speaker 1: And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people,
- 17:22Speaker 1: as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.
- 17:25Speaker 1: Then said the Lord unto Isaiah, go forth now to
- 17:29Speaker 1: meet Ahaz thou and shear jasheb thy son at the
- 17:33Speaker 1: end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the
- 17:36Speaker 1: highway of the Fuller's field, and say unto him, take
- 17:40Speaker 1: heed and be quiet. Fear not neither be faint hearted,
- 17:44Speaker 1: for the two tales of these smoking fire brands, for
- 17:48Speaker 1: the fierce anger of Resin with Syria and of the
- 17:51Speaker 1: son of Ramalia. Because Syria Ephraim and the son of
- 17:57Speaker 1: Ramalia have taken evil counsel against Thee, saying, let us
- 18:01Speaker 1: go up against Judah and vex it, and let us
- 18:04Speaker 1: make a breach therein for us, and set a king
- 18:07Speaker 1: in the midst of it. Yea, the son of Tabiel.
- 18:11Speaker 1: Thus saith the Lord God. It shall not stand, neither
- 18:16Speaker 1: shall it come to pass. For the head of Syria
- 18:19Speaker 1: is Damascus, and the head of Damascus resin and within
- 18:23Speaker 1: threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it
- 18:27Speaker 1: be not a people. And the head of Ephraim is Samaria,
- 18:31Speaker 1: and the head of Samaria is Ramalia's son. If ye
- 18:35Speaker 1: will not believe, surely ye shall not be established. Moreover,
- 18:39Speaker 1: the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying, ask thee a
- 18:44Speaker 1: sign of the Lord thy God. Ask it either in
- 18:47Speaker 1: the depths or in the heights above. But Ahaz said,
- 18:51Speaker 1: I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.
- 18:54Speaker 1: And he said, hear ye, now, o house of David,
- 18:58Speaker 1: is it a small thing for you to weary men?
- 19:01Speaker 1: But will ye weary my God? Also? Therefore the Lord
- 19:06Speaker 1: himself shall give unto you a sign. Behold, a virgin
- 19:10Speaker 1: shall conceive and shall bear a son, and shall call
- 19:13Speaker 1: his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that
- 19:18Speaker 1: he may know to refuse the evil and to choose
- 19:21Speaker 1: the good. For before the child shall know to refuse
- 19:24Speaker 1: the evil and choose the good, the land that thou
- 19:27Speaker 1: aborest shall be forsaken of both her kings. The Lord
- 19:31Speaker 1: shall bring upon thee and upon thy people, and upon
- 19:35Speaker 1: thy father's house days that have not come from the
- 19:38Speaker 1: day that Ephraim departed from Judah, the king of Assyria.
- 19:42Speaker 1: And it shall come to pass in that day that
- 19:45Speaker 1: the Lord shall hiss for the fly that is in
- 19:47Speaker 1: the uttermost part of Egypt, and for the bee that
- 19:51Speaker 1: is in the land of Assyria. And they shall come
- 19:54Speaker 1: and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys,
- 19:57Speaker 1: and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns,
- 20:01Speaker 1: and upon all bushes. In the same day shall the
- 20:04Speaker 1: Lord shave with a razor that is hired by them
- 20:08Speaker 1: beyond the river, by the King of Assyria, the head
- 20:11Speaker 1: and the hair of the feet, and it shall also
- 20:14Speaker 1: consume the beard. And it shall come to pass in
- 20:17Speaker 1: that day a man shall nourish a young cow and
- 20:20Speaker 1: two sheep, And it shall come to pass for the
- 20:23Speaker 1: abundance of milk they shall give. He shall eat butter.
- 20:27Speaker 1: For butter and honey shall everyone eat that is left
- 20:31Speaker 1: in the land. And it shall come to pass in
- 20:33Speaker 1: that day every place shall be where there were a
- 20:37Speaker 1: thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, which shall be for
- 20:41Speaker 1: briars and thorns. With arrows and with bows shall men
- 20:46Speaker 1: come thither, because all the land shall become briars and thorns,
- 20:51Speaker 1: and all hills that shall be digged with the mattock.
- 20:54Speaker 1: There shall not come thither the fear of briars and thorns.
- 20:58Speaker 1: But it shall be for the sending forth of Oxen,
- 21:01Speaker 1: and the treading of lesser cattle, and of Second Nephi,
- 21:06Speaker 1: chapters twelve to seventeen