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Spirit Speak: Practical Divination and Spirit Contact with Ivo Dominguez Jr. · Coffee & Divination

• 0:00
  Speaker: A divine being that works primarily with animals may occasionally talk to some humans on the side or humans that have a special connection to that.
• 0:08
  Speaker: So when you see the the various depictions of animal gods with and goddesses with animal heads or animal wings or various parts, in some cases that's purely symbolic, and the humans are just coming up with something to represent what that animal means to them in that culture.
• 0:21
  Speaker: But in other cases, it's a giveaway that that actually is like I'm pretty sure that that bast is way more interested in cats than us.
• 0:29
  Speaker: But there are a lot of humans that love her in those places where we have an overlap.
• 0:35
  Speaker: Um, like uh let's say that like there's a place where there's a river goddess.
• 0:39
  Speaker: Don't you think that every critter, every plant that is, is is on attached to that river also has a special connection to that goddess?
• 0:46
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 0:47
  Speaker: And she's going to look different to each one.
• 0:50
  Speaker: And in some cases, she doesn't look like anything because they don't visualize.
• 0:53
  Speaker: But my point is when we find our connection to the fact that there are an innumerable number of divinities that are outside of in that we're not part of their job description, it makes us humble in a way I think is useful.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Coffee and Divination, a podcast about the arts of obtaining hidden knowledge in changing times.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Join me to want to come up to chat with experts from around the world on terrible moons, demands, and the many ways divination can help us navigate and plan our space.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is an interview with one of my favorite returning guests, Evo Dominguez Jr.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Evo is a prolific author, an exceptional teacher, and a longtime respected leader in the modern occult community.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Someone whose work has helped thousands of practitioners develop stronger skills, perception, and discernment.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Evo was also one of the two keynote speakers we had for the very first Wild Grove Gathering Leadership Summit, which just wrapped up last week.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: He was one of 15 amazing presenters who shared their teachings with our attendees.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: So thank you to everyone who joined us.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I'll be posting some clips from the summit roundtable discussions, including a conversation on technology and modern leadership and learning in occultism, which Ivo took part in, over on the Coffee and Divination YouTube page very soon.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: So go check that out if you would like to hear more.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: In today's conversation, Evo and I dive into the recently re-released updated edition of his excellent book, Spirit Speak, a comprehensive guide to connect beyond the veil.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: We talk about technique and warmups, levels of consciousness, and the ways we define and safely practice forms of spirit contact for divination, along with many other things.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: It is always really inspiring to speak with Ivo, and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Be sure to come and say hello on Instagram.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: You can find us at Coffee and Divination.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: And if you haven't already, I recommend checking out the Coffee and Divination YouTube channel.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Grab your tea or your coffee and let's begin.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for joining us.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: And it is my pleasure to have Ivo Dominguez Jr.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: once again on the show.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: It is just always so wonderful to have you here and to be able to talk with you about these things.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So thank you for making time for this.
• 3:15
  Speaker: I have always had a great time talking to you.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Lovely.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: So this conversation is obviously centered around the release of the new edition of Spirit Speak.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: And that is a book that I have very much enjoyed, and I know members of my coven also very much appreciate and enjoy.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So with the with the sort of re-release of this, first of all, can you just tell us um what was the impetus that led you to, first of all, wanting to publish this originally when you did first put it out into the world?
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: And then what has changed that made you want to, you know, go back to it at this point?
• 3:53
  Speaker: The very first version of the book was actually something that was written for in-house use in our covens.
• 4:00
  Speaker: And was actually in the ancient days, there was a place called Kinko's.
• 4:07
  Speaker: And basically, you know, I went there and I had them uh copy and bind uh uh two copies for each of the covens in our tradition at the time so that people would have access to the materials.
• 4:18
  Speaker: And a lot of it was was derived from classes that I had taught, but there's a limit to how many classes you can teach and how many places you can be.
• 4:25
  Speaker: And eventually, uh because uh our tradition is is very open about uh its materials, and uh we we we don't have we have privacy, but we don't have oath-bound material.
• 4:39
  Speaker: In other words, uh we we respect people's individual privacy, and if a technique require is a little bit fiddly and somebody can damage themselves or others with it, you we require that it be if you're gonna share it, you have to teach it in person so the person doesn't blow themselves up.
• 4:54
  Speaker: But otherwise, it's free to share.
• 4:56
  Speaker: So I discovered that the uh copies that I'd had printed and bound for the Covens were making the rounds.
• 5:03
  Speaker: So I said, you know, maybe this should be a book book.
• 5:08
  Speaker: Which meant a considerable rewrite of the original material because what is easy uh when it's in the context of a specific tradition and community of practice, well, now you you want to share it with the world, that means you have to rewrite it so that you are saying the things out loud that are givens, or in the normal, in the accustomed fashion, or in the normal fashion, and all those things that we complain about when we look at uh older books from centuries ago or decades ago, and you go, gee, I wonder what the accustomed fashion was.
• 5:41
  Speaker: So that led to the the the rewrite.
• 5:45
  Speaker: And honestly, uh the very first version of the book was through uh New Page Books, which also published Jason Miller and a bunch of people.
• 5:53
  Speaker: There was a short span in time that they existed uh with the uh as a non-mainstream publisher also doing metaphysical and magic stuff.
• 6:01
  Speaker: It didn't work out for them.
• 6:03
  Speaker: Wiser bought the rights to uh to the book, and then eventually they started poking at me because it's a funny thing.
• 6:11
  Speaker: It's been in print for a lot of years, and that's a fairly rare phenomena.
• 6:18
  Speaker: It's not like it was ever a raging bestseller, but it's sold slow and steady because there's an audience for the materials in it.
• 6:26
  Speaker: So they said, we'd like to re-release it with a fresh cover and have you sign a fresh contract because at the time you first signed a contract with NewPage, you know, they they they neglected to have a clause on audiobooks and they neglected to have a clause on uh digital uh versions and so on, which is you know, makes sense based on the time period.
• 6:48
  Speaker: So I said, sure, but I only want to do that if you allow me to go back and make small changes throughout the whole thing.
• 6:55
  Speaker: And and by the way, there's material that ended up on the cutting room floor the last time because you had a very strict originally a strict word limit on this book when it was the original publisher.
• 7:06
  Speaker: So I would like to add materials to it.
• 7:08
  Speaker: So there was a bit of a uh a bit of a wrestling back and forth because I wanted to add like another 20,000 words, 30,000 words, and they were like, no.
• 7:20
  Speaker: So this version has an additional 12,000 words, about uh about uh 10,000 of those words is absolutely new content, and then an addition the other 2,000 were things that I changed to make the other material more understandable that was already in there, because I've literally had almost two decades of people asking me questions at workshops or at events, so I figured, hey, I might as well answer some of the uh questions that have been uh popular questions by inserting a few clarifiers in the book as I go.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that that makes a sense.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: So it was also it's very interesting that it was a book before it was a book in this sense.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Now it is a book for a third time, in a sense.
• 8:07
  Speaker: So it's in a sense.
• 8:08
  Speaker: Yeah, it in my head it absolutely is.
• 8:11
  Speaker: Well, actually, four times.
• 8:12
  Speaker: Four times, okay.
• 8:14
  Speaker: Because when I in the process of converting it into something that was meant for the world, um, the very first draft, I said, This is pretty good.
• 8:23
  Speaker: And then my my my various spiritual uh beings that uh I talked to and guide me said it ain't.
• 8:30
  Speaker: So then it needed so so that so then I did a major rewrite before it got to the first pub published to the mainstream edition, if you will.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: So there was an intermediate phase there.
• 8:44
  Speaker: There was an intermediate phase.
• 8:45
  Speaker: And uh it was probably a perfectly decent book in its intermediate phase, but if I get a strong message from uh you you listen.
• 8:54
  Speaker: You learn.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Well, it makes a lot of sense.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Uh before we sort of dive into every not everything that's in this book, but as much as we can get to in this conversation that's in the book, um you you point out that the material that is in this book is meant for, speaking of intermediate, intermediate practitioners.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: And I have noticed, I'm I'm sure many of the listeners have noticed this as well, that there is a strong call right now, as as of course it's wonderful, there are always new people joining pads, and we want to be very welcoming, and there needs to be always new iterations of basic material.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: But there's a there's a big push for having more materials that are aimed at more intermediate level things.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Um, what would you say about this book leads you to call it intermediate?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: And are do you have any other thoughts about this sort of like upwelling of the need for intermediate things?
• 9:47
  Speaker: Well, a couple of things.
• 9:48
  Speaker: One is that uh if a population of people is exploring something, working on something, whether you call it a movement or a community or uh a spiritual tradition or simply uh simply the the the march of time, people will have received the same instructions about some things over and over again, at which point um they need to have material that makes them expand or challenge what they already know.
• 10:18
  Speaker: And one of the things about intermediate material from my perspective is that it should feel like your home, it should feel like it makes sense and it's comfortable to you, and it should say two or three things that you're gonna go, bank, why didn't I already think of that?
• 10:37
  Speaker: That's the next logical extension of that idea or of that practice, or that's the logical consequence.
• 10:44
  Speaker: So, so that intermediate material is the stuff that's just out that has enough familiarity but has just enough new material that entices you across the border into a new understanding or a more expansive or or more connected way of understanding the material.
• 11:00
  Speaker: Um, but it's really hard to say intermediate because all right.
• 11:08
  Speaker: So if we were at a uh high school or a college or university, um we can assume that there are certain certain bits of coursework that are pretty much required of everyone, uh whether or not it's part of their focus, part of their major.
• 11:24
  Speaker: Okay, so we know we have uh X amount of history and science and whatever else as part of the background, so that you don't need to cover those in the courses that are covering something else.
• 11:36
  Speaker: The problem with writing for or teaching it in a magical context is that very often the people that you are encountering, um, most of their knowledge uh did not come from a planned approach to how to transmit the in the knowledge, how to provide the background or scaffolding ideas for other things.
• 11:59
  Speaker: So that you so you're always struggling with which things do I need to explain, or which things should I assume that this person already has some grip on, or they may be actually fabulously good and considered an expert in whatever it is that they do.
• 12:14
  Speaker: But as a for example, um not naming names, uh I have a friend who was teaching at a at a at a place where he would add, he was asked to please bring your intermediate material.
• 12:25
  Speaker: Uh, most of the attendees at this event have been going there for 10, 20, 30 years, uh, and so on.
• 12:32
  Speaker: And at the end of the event, he said, Well, I didn't find them to be intermediate.
• 12:36
  Speaker: And I said, Ah, I understand what happened.
• 12:39
  Speaker: Because they were bringing material that was not common and not shared in our region.
• 12:45
  Speaker: So that for his material was brand new and did not, they didn't have the the fun foundational pieces for it.
• 12:53
  Speaker: But I looked at him and said, if you had gone to one of my sessions that uh had an astrological focus, you would have you would have been floundering and you would have decided that you are not an intermediate person because astrology has never been your thing.
• 13:08
  Speaker: So the so the thing is that when we talk about intermediate material or advanced material, uh, in the absence of a standard of what common base level knowledge uh people should have, and here's the part, I'm shoulding.
• 13:22
  Speaker: You know, and should is a terrible word, and you have to be careful about it.
• 13:25
  Speaker: But but like I assume that even if it's not my stuff, or even if it's not my tradition or my preference, that a fairly well-educated person in the occult world, even if you don't care one little bit about uh the Greek pantheon, you kind of should know a little bit about it.
• 13:44
  Speaker: Even if you have no desire to become an alchemist, you should have a couple of core ideas.
• 13:49
  Speaker: So that there is so that it becomes a question of how to condense as much material into the book without making it so chewy that they give up on reading it.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that there's enough handholds, but but also keeping in mind that that expertise level or what is considered, you know, the the basics within one tradition is definitely not necessarily the same in others.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And that is uh different because we have a very diverse community of cultures of magic.
• 14:21
  Speaker: That's good.
• 14:21
  Speaker: And that's and that's and that's that's a good thing, but it makes it much more difficult from the perspective of an author.
• 14:26
  Speaker: And that's I, you know, now sometimes it's just malicious or stupid, but sometimes when you see reviews of books, uh either actual proper reviews or customer reviews on various uh sites, you know, and I go like, wow, okay, that person said that about that book because they don't know absolutely anything about the context of the book.
• 14:48
  Speaker: Or this person already knows so much that they're going to be unhappy about almost every new book being published because they are not producing things at the level that they are working at.
• 14:58
  Speaker: Or but with with many of my books, and uh I I've both groaned and smiled when I've been told, oh, I have to read your books with a with a dictionary next to me.
• 15:08
  Speaker: And I'm going like, and I'm going like, really?
• 15:11
  Speaker: No, no, you know, and and uh uh I I will periodically uh periodically go, okay, am I using the but some words are exactly the word that I mean for for for exactly that purpose and carry that nuance.
• 15:26
  Speaker: So but I but I find it interesting that um once again uh it it it's uh uh one one of the criticisms that I got in the initial version of Spirit Speak, and uh less so in this updated version because they just wanted me to get it done into their hands to publish it, but uh that they they wanted me to uh you know I hate using Word, I use, I use pages all the time, but I turn everything into word format for them.
• 15:54
  Speaker: So I'll use Words features to go, yeah, that's the okay, that's the reading level it's at, or uh and it's like I'm sorry, I I I will not go below a 12th grade reading level, even though that's been requested a number of times.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Well, and that is part of kind of then that's why we do need such a diversity of different books and different teachers in the world, though, also because absolutely that is that is also its own wonderful thing, too.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: So um speaking of sort of that that ties beautifully into what I was going to ask about next, which is the um the concept of subjective, oh in what is the phrase, informed subjectivity.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I I really like that turn of phrase and have used it a number of times with with people because uh there is oftentimes so much um difficulty, particularly.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is a podcast about divination.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Um so whenever we're dealing with sort of like subtle sciences and things like that, there's this potential, potential, though I don't think most people do this, to swing a little too much between, well, everything is you know true if it is, you know, within my experience and sort of a lack of any sort of scientific rigor or an application of method to something, or you know, the the opposite and say, well, unless it's been tested in the lab a thousand times, I I won't trust any of my personal experience.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: And I think that that subject informed subjectivity is a nice middle ground.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Could you maybe explain to people what you mean by that?
• 17:31
  Speaker: Yeah, uh, I mean first uh first I I I I rule out the possibility of objectivity, of uh actual objectivity completely, simply because um every observer, myself included, has limited physical senses, limited uh knowledge base, limited intellect, limited bandwidth and time to make sense of things at any given moment.
• 17:57
  Speaker: So that at any given time, everything that we experience is our best approximation.
• 18:03
  Speaker: It is and and knowing that is important because if you know that you can't be truly objective, that you can't have the entire picture, that you can't uh drill down to the to uh the position of every atom in the situation, then the best that you can do is recognize that A, I am not completely aware of the whole situation or the whole setting.
• 18:30
  Speaker: Um, I am aware of my limitations, and therefore I will uh you know make my un my understanding, I will construct it out of what's available, I'll form emotions and opinions about it, but I will always remind myself, I am informing myself by doing the best that I can to think it through and collect the information, and I'm also informing myself by saying that I know I am not capable of having the uh divinity's eyes perspective on things.
• 19:00
  Speaker: And and that's enough.
• 19:02
  Speaker: Uh, but also it means that you never stop testing, never stop refining uh the the the your your your decision of what something means, what I mean honestly, uh I I've had a lot of good friends and a lot of uh people in my life that have liked me and that I've worked with and people that I've disliked.
• 19:21
  Speaker: And one of the reasons I think I've done pretty well with interacting with human beings and still still basically like humanity, is that I assume that everybody is else else is functioning out of a limited um slice of reality and that they're doing the best they can within their own uh informed subjectivity, though some of them aren't aware of the fact that they are uh experiencing things subjectively.
• 19:48
  Speaker: Honestly, science is since the I since I started using that phrase, there's a lot more science that shows us that uh the the our our our consciousness is something that is pieced together moment by moment and is a great reduction, a great summarization of everything that we are experiencing and also everything that we are remembering, because it's impossible to be conscious and aware without the act of remembrance.
• 20:15
  Speaker: Nothing makes sense without connecting it to what's come before you, and that's been part of your experience.
• 20:20
  Speaker: So, spirit work or divination uh is always, to my perspective, likely to work better if you are being honest with yourself about it.
• 20:30
  Speaker: It's really not that different than than people in helping professions and therapists and such uh that are always doing self-monitoring of how their own reaction and responses to the person's uh life story or words or whatever are stirring things up in themselves.
• 20:48
  Speaker: And that colors how they view what's going on or how to interact with the person.
• 20:52
  Speaker: Every single day we are uh interacting with the world, and it is it is always an incomplete picture.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: I think um that also plays into the I think it works better, or it's that informed subjectivity comes easier, or at least I feel it does, from the perspective of some of a polytheist or even animist worldview, because you're allowing like immediately it's based in that you're going to have multiplicity of viewpoints.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: So there couldn't be only one truth anyway, because there's too many players interacting to begin with.
• 21:32
  Speaker: If you believe that everything has life or consciousness to a degree, or and you can define what all that means for you, then every single one of those is uh is a uh window onto a different universe.
• 21:44
  Speaker: And we they they overlap, they interact, but uh no.
• 21:51
  Speaker: I mean, I uh I believe very much so that uh um the gods and goddesses, divine beings, spirits and are are all.
• 21:59
  Speaker: as real as I am and have their own identities, but I also think of identity as being a very slippery thing, uh whether it's whether it's humans or for or for uh non-physical beings.
• 22:12
  Speaker: And uh our identity is not um is not baked in.
• 22:19
  Speaker: Um and and I think that that's where where things get a little bit iffy when people start dealing with spirits or gods or goddesses or other kinds of entities because many folks initially attempt to view them um as if they were as narrowly defined by identity as we are.
• 22:48
  Speaker: I mean I I always think of the part that's talking right now I always think of myself as uh as as being a multiplicity of selves uh and this is the junior partner uh there there's there's part of me that is not usually uh at the at the control panel uh driving this physical body that is the senior partner that and you can say consider that your divine self or or or all the lives or all the memories that you've been before whatever your belief system is but truthfully even the part of us that that walks around the world and thinks of themselves as like hey I'm the center of my world is like you know you're only part of a community so that how I how can you be anything but epol but a polytheist if you already assume that uh you've already you've you've got all these different uh selves within yourself uh viewing the world from different perspectives I'm sure that that there's a part of me that views the world in in uh enzymes and protein uh replication chains absolutely in my deep biology yeah it is I I think well that that ties back into self-reflection being so important for all of these practices because it it's never that we can really fully or at least I don't know how fully center our awareness into any of those you know for long periods of time at least into that kind of that kind of other perspective but it's important to do the work of reflecting on it so that then we are getting at least a layered nuanced vision of ourselves slash what we are seeing outside of ourselves.
• 24:26
  Speaker: And that ties into uh you have the the description of the elements of being which is uh energy information and essence if I think I'm remembering them correctly.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: That is a um I think that's a very good nuanced I love in your books you always have lovely diagrams to help illustrate these points.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: So unfortunately if you're listening to this audio and I don't probably I probably won't have these on the screen for the YouTube video either um but could you maybe walk us through kind of uh what those three represent it it then kind of flows later into other exercises that you have in the book and and how that ties into see seeing and thinking with these levels of being but maybe we can start there a little bit.
• 25:09
  Speaker: Sure and and and I'll say that I do a lot of things in threes I also do the fours but uh I I I uh I I have a tendency to try to impose some kind of framework so I can make sense of things.
• 25:22
  Speaker: Okay.
• 25:22
  Speaker: Probably a lot of the people listening uh whether or not they use it have heard of the idea of the lower self middle self and higher self or some kind of you know three level self or you can think of it as let's start with the lower lower self or primal self or uh energy self really the part of you that know actually most of your magic if you do magic comes from and is mediated by that lower self that instinctual self that nonverbal self that is closer to uh on one end the mamm the the mammal and animal end of your existence and it can the lower down you go the higher up you go so that you are also at the level of what I consider form consciousness.
• 26:11
  Speaker: So rather than consciousness that's based on words and images it's literally the way that forces and forms interact with it's why uh you know molecules know how to pair in particular ways or how to uh to they they don't require an instruction set of words or images and at that deepest level is that's the level the the closest to the physical world or in the physical world is experienced as energy and by and remember everything is made out of energy and matter is just energy that's taking a break and moving slowly um so so that all things are made out of vibration and energy so that it does things don't have names they have themselves they are what they are and when we raise energy or experience an energy or when we experience uh something that's a qualia like if I'm looking at a red light um I experience you know I I can experience red and understand it to be red you got you've got a layer the layer above is going to be going like well red means means roses red means love red means anger you know you can start adding all these things but at a primal level you know part of you that knows what red is red is the slow vibration red also veers into giving me warmth uh so energy is is it's kind of like the lowest level if you will this is it's a different way of describing the planes frankly the middle world the middle self is information this is where we live primarily at least uh if you're capable of listening to a podcast or a video cast um you are you're functioning in a symbolic uh translation you are summarizing you are doing things that make it possible to survive uh in the physical world uh but you are doing most of that work of summarization that we were talking about when we were in the in the realm of uh uh informed subjectivity but this is the part where you know the old uh you know the territory is not the map yeah well information is your you are the constant cartographer you are making the map constantly you are creating understanding creating relationship creating reality and people in the magical community will often diss the middle self or the con consciousness self because it gets in the way it absolutely does but it is also in the middle and anything that's in the middle is important now I'm just gonna just put that out for for any uh for other magical reasons and that is the layer where we understand things then the layer above that is is essence or some people would think of divine self or spiritual self if you're doing in the three worlds model.
• 28:45
  Speaker: But I'm gonna say that we don't know what gravity is we don't know what magnetism is.
• 28:55
  Speaker: We know how they interact with the world so but there are when they when we talk about the things that are at the core level or at the core and highest level of reality essence is the thing that is the prime mover instructs things to behave in particular ways but it's not related to words and formats that the information has and it is not yet at the level of energy which is the expression of those things.
• 29:17
  Speaker: So you can think of that as or how about this whenever an oracle has an amazing amount of download dump into their brain that's a big drop of essence that they are looking at and trying to make sense of and then hopefully their thinking brain realizes oh it's a zip file from the universe and begins the process of decoding it and expanding it outwards or you get a cue of or you can think of like a a very short poem that can carry a ton of meaning because it's filled with essence more than information.
• 29:51
  Speaker: And then once you once you decode it then the energy flows as well so three layers of self and the closer you are to the primal deeper layer of physicality the more energy becomes uh prominent in the middle layer information becomes more prominent and in the top planes of reality or consciousness then essence uh becomes the most common but ever but they're like the three primary colors of being and all things that from my perspective all things that have any level of consciousness which is not necessarily the same thing as self-awareness um anything that's conscious has to have energy information and essence it's also the the the ingredients that uh go into uh uh uh the making of understanding when you're trying to decode things yeah I don't know if that I mean there's a lot more to it uh they it also connects to things like cardinal fixed immutable on the astrology end of things it connects to the three uh uh uh trio prima the principles in in alchemy but the idea or the idea is that if you take a moment to to pay attention depending upon uh in this book it shows up sometimes because you're trying to pay attention am I mostly getting information am I mostly getting energy am I mostly getting um uh something that's the equivalent of a a download feed that's that's material that isn't immediately understandable that feels numinous and filled with possibility uh just being aware of of of which mixture of these things gives you some sense of the kind of can spirit you're connecting to or which level of that spirit you're connecting to.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah absolutely and it it does tie into so many other systems of sort of reflecting on and being aware of levels of of being which is you know chakras and and lots of other you know systems um many of which you talk about in your book.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: But the the other thing that I really liked when we're when we're thinking about this because it it it does again ties back to self-awareness and self-reflection is that there's also an emphasis in the book on um preparation and on not only just understanding classes of spirits, which of course you you know we're gonna talk about that a little bit and it's very prominently in the book, but the idea of being prepared in one's body as well as in the other parts of oneself.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: And I like you the the one of the models that you borrow is off of sort of like the idea of being in shape.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: And I think it's a really important thing for for myself oftentimes when I talk to other people who are not professional musicians because like playing violin like I do can look sedentary but I always tell people it's actually extremely athletic and monitoring your breathing and your heart rate and being in shape quote unquote is is very much a part of it.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: And it's the same with spiritual practice and it does have a lot of like fitness levels to it.
• 32:45
  Speaker: Could you maybe talk about what you mean when you when you are discussing that yeah I mean let's start with the idea of just warming up uh and the purpose of warming up if you're going to be I don't know running or or or uh or jumping hurdles or whatever is to make sure that you've warmed up move which means you're moving blood in your body so that things are oxygenated, things are lubricated and you have gently begun the process of stretching things so that they are ready to be stretched even more in the very near future um so that you are reducing injury and increasing your likelihood of performing better.
• 33:29
  Speaker: Well when we are going to be doing magical work divinatory work spirit work it's a good idea to uh warm up your senses and your body and because we guess what your whole self is what receives so that your if you're when your body is uh is by the way I don't want to make this sound like an ableist kind of thing because one of my uh most important teachers for a goodly part of of uh her life when she was my teacher she was wheelchair bound and in later life was on oxygen and still running rituals and uh but even for her there was a question of becoming aware of of of of the flow of life in their body of connecting to that part of them that is that energy self that is the body that is grounded in us yada yada uh in in the process of getting ready for uh communication I mean one of the one of the things I often will do is I'll I'll quickly in my head flip through it's almost like I'm flipping through a flip book of colors and I'm looking just to see all the colors that I can see or I'll say a couple of lines of poetry I'll do a little bit of math in my head I'll remember a random scrap of history or or something I studied in school.
• 34:47
  Speaker: And what I'm doing is I'm trying to light up all the areas of my mind and memory so that they're handy and nearby.
• 34:56
  Speaker: And last but not least I make an effort to remind myself and connect with the part of myself that is not as anchored to the physical is not as deeply entrenched in my body whether you call that divine self or higher self or witch self or lighting the witch fire whatever you you know whatever your tradition teaches but my point is that warming up in this case means that you have activated all those things that you are going to be relying upon.
• 35:25
  Speaker: And if you do those things then you're more likely to function better.
• 35:29
  Speaker: You'll have a clearer more lucid and nuanced uh communication if that's what's happening.
• 35:36
  Speaker: And just as importantly anytime that we encounter um magic and spirits um it's a strain you have to stretch yourself and contort yourself uh into into places that are that are that are not where you normally live in your day-to-day life and uh if anybody sings uh you know that if you if you don't warm up your voice is not going to be very happy with you during the song and even more unhappy with you afterwards especially if you're trying to sing higher than is normal for you or lower than is normal for you.
• 36:12
  Speaker: And when you're trying to connect with beings you're often trying to move into for for for lack of a better word frequency that is outside of your normal range or or the or the plane of being that you normally focus your consciousness on.
• 36:25
  Speaker: So warming up and getting ready is about improving the outcomes and also reducing the chance of you hurting yourself.
• 36:35
  Speaker: And well I I I've never done I haven't gotten hurt there's this funny thing called you know a uh cumulative stress there's this funny thing that leads to things like carpal tunnel and any number of other things like it doesn't it doesn't feel like you're hurting yourself but if you are but you are uh slowly slowly uh uh adding to to the to the to the load for your for your selfhood in this case to to recover and come back to its form and remember and I say this a couple of times in different in different classes and in my books you know flexibility is not how far you can stretch flexibility is how far you can stretch and come back into your normal position without anything going ouch yeah oh that is a that is a very very important point you can make it happen you could maybe do it once but oh you're gonna pay for it yeah yeah that is that is very very true I think that that there's a an imagery that you have more in the chapter on uh mediumship and channeling which is what I wanted to talk about next anyway um which is the idea of kind of like when you are when we're now we're gonna kind of talk about contacting spirits and and being in contact with you know other types of beings the idea of you know like climbing a mountain and and going to a certain height that you are not necessarily used to like a mountain climber who can go a certain height without oxygen before passing out and vice versa like that spirits could be like diving down in order to reach us um but there's a certain limit to what they can do.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: So each type of being has their own limitations and that those different uh strengths and weaknesses can cause different types of spirit contact to have different feelings different levels of like ease or not dis-ease um when we try to practice them and that can be different for different people could you I I'm kind of this is kind of a a broad opening to this because I I do want to dive into the difference between you know mediumship and channeling and the terms but maybe if we want to start from the the idea of those levels.
• 38:44
  Speaker: Yeah and and uh and and uh let I'm gonna uh make this one a dual track one so um I I like doing the idea of climbing the mountain or going to the ocean depths because uh in both cases there is X there's there's a limit to to what your body is capable of in that moment and there's also a limit that changes as you acclimate and allow yourself adjustment time at each or or develop uh comfort with knowing oh that's I'm feeling this weird thing it'll pass in about 20 minutes.
• 39:15
  Speaker: So part of that is simply about uh our physical bodies and our subtle bodies I like the term subtle bodies more than than aura or energy field uh because it reminds us that it has shape and limits because people forget everything has limits in magic as well.
• 39:34
  Speaker: They may be different they may be flexible in places that are different than on the physical plane but nonetheless.
• 39:39
  Speaker: So yeah there's a limit to how high up and how high and how far down so so you you find the plane where the two of you can be lucid and connect for as long as you can and then one of you has to dive down or go back up.
• 39:54
  Speaker: But there's another thing as well and that is that um um you have to also not just adjust energetically and allow your consciousness to settle into that place uh I'll I'll do the uh the the really bright sunlight thing and it'll make sense in a moment.
• 40:12
  Speaker: So once upon a time uh Jim's grandmother's farm I had to uh do a lot of work for her she was getting on and living alone which is awesome but she had one of those uh basements that you had to enter from the outside of the house and you opened a hatch and climbed down into it and I'd be finding things for her and bringing it up and well it was pitch black down there and there was like maybe a 40 watt bulb somewhere in the distance so it was so that your eyes after you'd have to sit there because at first it was pitch black and you'd your eyes would adjust and then you'd be able to make out vague forms and be able to navigate.
• 40:46
  Speaker: But then as soon as you flopped open the door to go back out south facing suddenly you are you know uh impaled by sunlight and you can't see anything again because you are now dark adjusted and you're in the bright light.
• 41:02
  Speaker: Everybody's had some some kind of experience of that in some physical way.
• 41:06
  Speaker: One of the things that authors and practitioners will often discuss is that if you you know when you rise past a certain level um things the details uh fade away and it gets to be more whooshes of color and geometry and it gets very woo-woo and very uh abstract and ethereal because you're exceeding the limits and you've risen so high into the boundaries of reality yada yada and I and in essence that's correct but mostly bullshit pardon for the words what it it's it's it's it's it's it's hubris of a different sort of I don't actually think that most of the people I've met and I've met some amazing talented uh uh spiritual people over the course of I'm gonna be 67 uh in a couple in in December that and and I will tell them none of them have come gotten to that those far far far up planes of being or consciousness that would require that but here's what does happen as we rise up on that mountain if you will or go dive deep down in addition to the air getting thinner the light gets either brighter or darker in in a different way so that you also have to have but if you actually stay there long enough suddenly you're not just seeing simple geometrics you're now beginning to see detail again so that people assume that they that that they've lost resolution or lost clarity because they've flown so high that they are closer to the place that is the unitary plane where all things touch and time even eternity ceases to be etc etc and in reality it's that they haven't let their uh spiritual senses adapt to that plane long enough to for it for the details to begin to show up or because time moves very differently than the kind of consciousness that we normally have um I encourage people to uh to to uh do what I the the equivalent of squinting we've all had the experience well past a certain age of being in a restaurant and trying to read the menu without our our glasses or or my contact lenses and you can squint long enough to make out one or two words and then you have to relax your eyes and squint again.
• 43:18
  Speaker: So but you can piece together and say ah this is what I'm ordering sometimes the other thing going on is that different planes time runs at a different rate either much faster or much slower.
• 43:30
  Speaker: So it may be that you have to wait and grab a detail grab a detail and be patient to allow it to like in the old days of the internet when you would see a JPEG loading one line at a time across the screen and you know like two minutes later you'd see the picture that was being uh was being downloaded onto your device.
• 43:50
  Speaker: So so that part of it is also having the patience to know that it functions differently but conditioning is is not Just about not hurting yourself in the moment and not just about collecting information, but um there is a reason why many magical traditions and there and uh we'll talk about this, or there are many stories about how if you do this stuff, you're gonna go bonkers.
• 44:17
  Speaker: Or or or or the one I hate the most, and I am I am actually slowly staring back towards mediumship and channeling.
• 44:25
  Speaker: Um, where at least in the last year, three different people over the last 12 months um who do mediumship, it's like, oh well, you know, the cost of mediumship is you know a slow degradation of my physical body.
• 44:39
  Speaker: And I look at them like, oh no, there are people who teach that.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, oh no.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: And it's very for those who could not see, you could not see the look on my face.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: That's yes.
• 44:52
  Speaker: But people teach that because it's really easy for you to um overextend yourself on a regular basis.
• 45:02
  Speaker: And I don't, you know, it's it's not a big leap of understanding to go, hey, when you when you change your energy field and your subtle bodies consistently in a particular way, that eventually reverberates back into some kind of disease or illness in the body.
• 45:18
  Speaker: So that if you overextend yourself doing physical stuff, you know that you can damage your muscles and bones.
• 45:26
  Speaker: If you overextend yourself magically without recovery time in between, you can also cause harm that doesn't just affect your mental or emotional balance, but can eventually reverberate back into something in the body.
• 45:38
  Speaker: So it's not that it doesn't happen, but I'm gonna be real judgy and say it's poor technique if that's what's happening.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: No, I I I could not agree more.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: It's yeah, there's there's a a lot of ways that um what is that the the the joke, doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Well, then don't do that.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Um but it it is kind of that then you need to not to say that you know things cannot happen, which you know, different people's abilities.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: You might be doing everything as carefully as you possibly can, and something can overextend and have an impact you don't expect.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: But then there are there are technical things that you should be looking at, absolutely.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, that is that is very, very interesting.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, so then I will steer us back to channeling a medium shift.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Um it's just it is interesting to me because the the word that I use for the the work that I do is is seership, which is maybe a little bit old-fashioned and Victorian in some way.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Um, but I am very curious to have you break down the difference that you see in terms of both technique and and information gathering, shall we say, between mediumship and channeling.
• 46:49
  Speaker: And I'm gonna say that in the wild, I see people doing all of them at once.
• 46:55
  Speaker: But it's it's useful to make distinctions so that you can see that the person is going back and forth between doing different modalities.
• 47:02
  Speaker: Ultimately, they're they're getting information, they're communicating with spirits, so they're in the same box, if you will, but they're different tools.
• 47:11
  Speaker: So for me, the biggest distinction is that um the medium is more uh of a receiver and transceiver for the information and for the consciousness of whatever kind of being they're connected to.
• 47:27
  Speaker: Most mediums work with the dead, but that's not the only possibility for mediums.
• 47:32
  Speaker: Um, but they are being used as the device for the person to communicate uh in a lot of ways.
• 47:40
  Speaker: Um, I think the example I love best is you've probably seen uh talking boards where whether it's with humans or with animal communication uh experiments, they have uh things where the the person or the uh animal will will hit different pictures on the on this thing like a keyboard and it will speak uh that word or that thing and kind of like piece together something.
• 48:03
  Speaker: Um I I remember, I don't remember which year it was, because it was a long time ago, where I was uh stunned because I saw a uh an a one of the great apes uh asking uh a journalist who was being a little bit dense.
• 48:16
  Speaker: Um the j the journalist was trying to give give give her a piece of a banana and she didn't want banana, and she kept hitting the keys to produce um uh candy water fruit.
• 48:28
  Speaker: And one of the people that worked with uh said she's trying to say watermelon to you.
• 48:34
  Speaker: Now, here's the part that that that was stunning to me.
• 48:38
  Speaker: It's like, of course, of the possible words available that can be created from a limited nor source of things, what water, candy, and fruit is as close a description to watermelon as as uh any any intelligent being could come up with.
• 48:52
  Speaker: So when we're doing mediumship, our memories, our feelings, our thoughts, um, stories that we that we know, all that stuff is being gently nudged, gently activated or touched by uh hopefully gently, by these spirits, so that then that comes forth as as as actions in the world.
• 49:16
  Speaker: And you know, occasionally it gets a little bit more exciting uh when when when there's stuff that it manifests in a more physical way, but that's extremely rare.
• 49:23
  Speaker: But it does happen.
• 49:25
  Speaker: But so this but the medium is the transceiver.
• 49:28
  Speaker: Yeah, in this case, the medium is the message in more than one way.
• 49:33
  Speaker: Where a channeler, um, from my perspective, is moving their focal point of consciousness to the place where the spirit is.
• 49:45
  Speaker: Now, that could be a higher plane or a lower plane or a sideways plane, but it is but it is more like uh uh to to to uh poke at poke at a novel that I like, uh it is more traveling without moving uh than than than than not.
• 50:03
  Speaker: Uh now it may simply be that you're traveling just with inside the range of of consciousness or frequencies that you can access, but you are meeting the being where they are uh and and staying there.
• 50:15
  Speaker: Whereas in mediumship, often the beer, the being or the spirit has to come to where the medium is.
• 50:22
  Speaker: But aside from that primary difference, um mediumship is more of a blending of of uh of that lower energy self and the higher self.
• 50:37
  Speaker: And channeling relies more heavily on on that middle self consciousness and moving the focal point of of of where your awareness is.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense as a description of that as well.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: And the um you do include the the term then mediator in this.
• 50:58
  Speaker: Mediation, yeah.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Mediation.
• 51:00
  Speaker: So they're fairly rare.
• 51:02
  Speaker: And I mentioned at the outset that there are people that do multiple techniques at once to get the best outcome for what they're trying to accomplish.
• 51:09
  Speaker: And um mediators are those rare people that are actually good at multitasking.
• 51:16
  Speaker: A lot of people wish they were, uh, and and can actually be have dual consciousness and truly be very present in the place where they're meeting the spirit, or and at the same time, uh eyes wide open, uh in the in the connecting to the energy of whoever it is that they're that they're communicating for or to in the room.
• 51:41
  Speaker: Um they're they're they're capable of uh extending their selfhood so that you're covering more territory.
• 51:49
  Speaker: Now it could be that they just bounce back and forth between the the possibilities faster.
• 51:54
  Speaker: It doesn't matter, but the point is they are covering all the bases in a different way.
• 51:58
  Speaker: Um, I'm gonna give an image because I like giving images as a way of expanding stuff.
• 52:04
  Speaker: Now imagine that you have a perfectly flat table and you have a perfectly flavorly round sphere that you you sit upon the table, and if you give it a little tap, it's gonna roll across the table, and it is connecting with the table in one dot.
• 52:20
  Speaker: Mathematically, it's more than that because it's not, you know, but for all intents and purposes, it's really only, you know, there's there's just one that one point of contact between the moving sphere and and and the plane beneath it.
• 52:35
  Speaker: And that's us moving through linear time.
• 52:38
  Speaker: If somebody is doing mediation, they have moved, uh, they have expanded the now so that they are not just including that one point of contact as we roll through linear time, but a little bit of what's left and right, a little bit of what's to eat of that didn't that didn't happen but could have happened, a little bit forward, a little bit back, a little bit what the higher.
• 53:03
  Speaker: So basically, you've you you've you you've gone from being a dot of consciousness to being a small sphere.
• 53:09
  Speaker: And the bigger the sphere, the more it can encompass.
• 53:12
  Speaker: But it isn't a God's eye view, but it is a more uh inclusive view, which allows you to move, you still be in your body and be in the place that it's it's uh media mediation when done right is somebody who is intentionally becoming non-local.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see how yeah, that is that is a much more rare occurrence then in terms of just yeah.
• 53:41
  Speaker: A lot of times it's just somebody who can multitask really fast, but the ones that really, really any, I would still call them a mediator because they've got that kind of uh flexibility, yeah.
• 53:50
  Speaker: Yeah, and range.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: So then I again this ties then into in in the book, you go through a number of different types of techniques.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Um, and many of these, some you know, practitioners uh might be familiar with the terms like drawing down, you know, drawing down the sun and the moon.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Um, but then there's other terms that people may or may not be familiar with, like aspecting or assumption and position.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Um and those things do kind of then touch on a lot of the things we've been talking about so far in terms of where we're in our consciousness and where other beings are meeting us.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: Um with that being said, clearly like the the divine possession is the one that has the most levels of, I don't know if I really want to say just straight up difficulty, but yeah, difficulty.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Um, and it's at least the more rare for it to occur without training and without intention, which is for the best.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Um within your tradition and when you are talking to people, where is it that you think that people should best start if they are thinking about expanding some of these skills or or looking at this?
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Obviously, they need to read your book, but what are some of those like early safe aspects of this?
• 55:17
  Speaker: So I'm gonna I'm gonna say that uh there's always risk, but here's probably the safest thing I would suggest.
• 55:23
  Speaker: The kind of thing that I would uh do is a quick exercise at a class in a in a in a bookstore somewhere because you don't know who's gonna show up.
• 55:31
  Speaker: So most first you you you you attempt to can communicate or connect with a being that is well known.
• 55:41
  Speaker: You don't pick something that's you know an unknown.
• 55:46
  Speaker: You don't pick something that you have read exactly one paragraph about.
• 55:49
  Speaker: Uh but so for example, let's say that uh uh one of the first ones I ever was drawn to was working with uh Bridget Breed, uh whichever name you wish to know her by.
• 56:02
  Speaker: And uh and and I often recommend her as and also Paulo, and there's a variety, how about this?
• 56:10
  Speaker: Beings that are have a long history of choosing to be benign in their interactions with humans.
• 56:17
  Speaker: It might be really cool to to pick something that is dark and powerful and has sharp teeth the first time, but I don't recommend it per se.
• 56:27
  Speaker: Uh even if you're a goth kid.
• 56:29
  Speaker: And I was a goth kid, so I can say that.
• 56:32
  Speaker: So let's say, for example, Bridget or Apollo.
• 56:36
  Speaker: There's an infinite, almost infinite amount of imagery, statuary, stories that you can you can find about them.
• 56:46
  Speaker: Yes?
• 56:47
  Speaker: Well, the first thing I would do is I would do some research.
• 56:51
  Speaker: And if you don't have research in for a class, I'll say, here, I'm gonna read you something so you can get to get you started.
• 56:56
  Speaker: And I will have the person sit and listen.
• 57:00
  Speaker: If they are good at visualizing, I ask them to visualize.
• 57:03
  Speaker: If they're not good at visualize, I ask them to listen to each of the words as they come.
• 57:08
  Speaker: And I build up an image of of of uh whichever divine being uh is is is gonna be worked with so that they can it's standing in front, I'm gonna say it because I'm gonna not gonna gender it.
• 57:21
  Speaker: Um it's standing in front of them and they are glorious in in whatever they do.
• 57:29
  Speaker: They have their their crown.
• 57:30
  Speaker: If they have the crown, they have a staff, they they have their trident, they they have their sheaf of weight, whatever, whatever the badges are.
• 57:36
  Speaker: Here's the thing over the time period that human beings have worked with that being, um, we have come up with a set of these are the sorts of things that they wear, these are the sorts of tools that they hold, these are the kinds of colors that they like, these are the kinds of landscapes that they tend to exist in, these are the kinds of animal companions that they or or or uh supporters that they have nearby, so that you build up this image.
• 58:02
  Speaker: Somewhere inside every human being, there is an echo of of all the gods and goddesses that we've ever worked with.
• 58:08
  Speaker: That's my belief.
• 58:10
  Speaker: So you are by by calling upon these known landmarks for depicting them, you are slowly but surely awakening them within yourself and also getting their attention very subtly in in the broader world.
• 58:24
  Speaker: So now, depending upon the person's uh uh sense of safety, um, I ask them to stand up.
• 58:34
  Speaker: And if they've done this for themselves, that's they can do it themselves.
• 58:38
  Speaker: And imagine that that god or goddess is behind them and take a step back and take a step back until you are stepping into them and they completely envelop your energy.
• 58:49
  Speaker: And then asking uh the person to just breathe with it, feel what they feel, see what they see.
• 58:56
  Speaker: Uh, if they're comfortable enough, take a step forward or two, but experience what it is to be enveloped in their energy.
• 59:04
  Speaker: Now, this is not asking them to move into your energy, but you are experiencing them in a way that's very different than simply reading a myth or looking at a piece of statuary, or um the energy because the energy that is reaching you is being filtered through those things that are representations of their pattern.
• 59:26
  Speaker: So that's now some people don't feel very uncomfortable stepping back and being enveloped, and would rather walk into the being's uh image from the back, do whatever feels comfortable to you, because ultimately if you don't feel comfortable enough, then you're not going to allow yourself to have the experience or not have a good version of the experience.
• 59:50
  Speaker: But even I I actually suggest that if you are, let's say that you are uh been tasked to either for a group that you're a part of or a ritual that you're doing for yourself, that you're going to be reading an invocation to that being later that week.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker: You know, you might want to try two or three times before it's it's that time to read that invocation to spend some time standing inside uh their the the mantle of their energy, the representation of their energy.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker: In effect, you are building a temple that's shaped like them that you've stepped into.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker: And it's fairly low risk compared to some other possibilities.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker: And I, or if you're going to be doing uh the first time I did it with Bridget, I was actually helping with a healing ceremony.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker: So I said, well, if I'm helping with this healing ceremony, I may as well um uh you know call upon her, since that's part of her work as well.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker: So that's one of the simplest starting points.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker: And it does not require one of the things, you know, all spirit work is intimate and and and requires a certain amount of vulnerability.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker: But when you're looking at things where you are uh allowing uh another being's consciousness or and or energy bodies to mesh with yours, that's intimate in a lot of other ways.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker: So it requires trust in yourself and trust in that being, and also potentially trust in the people that are your uh your partners in creating whatever experience or ritual it is, which is why you'll note that in many in many uh societies where divine uh possession is part of the normal stuff that happens, that it is almost always a communal event.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker: And and and that that that that is that community grounds you, uh rescues you, uh, feeds you.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker: Uh there's there's even if it doesn't if it even if it looks like there's nobody running anything in its chaos, it's like no, they've been doing this stuff for generations and everybody is doing their part, whether or not it looks like it to you.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: And I think I think it is also true that if we are outside of cultures that have that, it's can be even hard to see it.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Because it's so outside of our experience that we may not recognize it when we're looking right at it.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: Um, but that is absolutely true.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker: Oh, yeah.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: You need at least the buddy system, if nothing else, seriously.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: Um, I think it's it's beautiful in the book.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: You you go through um, you know, lovely discussions of different classes and types of spirits, um, you know, including ancestors and a great discussion of ghosts and hauntings, which I really appreciate that kind of uh nuance that you put into that, which I think is very helpful for people because working with ancestral spirits and the dead is sometimes, you know, feel is another like good, nice, welcoming place sometimes for people.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Um, but you also have a discussion a little later in the book about um the gods that are not even necessarily of other human cultures.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: And I particularly loved that you sort of later in the book make an effort to have people step outside of even you know what we would recognize as a deity.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Like, would you recognize the god of an animal if it came to you?
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: And that idea of being able to sort of try, even though we we can't really get outside of our humanness in this form, to reflect on the idea that there are there are deities and beings of other classes of spirits and that these things are are layered um in ways that are much more complex than than we might obviously see.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: And I live on a farm, so I'm I I am very consciously aware of thinking about the gods of the animals that I have on my farm, some of which I may come to know and some of which I may never have any contact with.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: Um, but can you maybe talk about like why you think that's important for practitioners to also kind of try to zoom out a little bit at times?
• 1:03:55
  Speaker: Yeah, I I I I think that that that's all right, we are in a dangerous time in history.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker: I'll I I'm gonna start right there.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker: And that's been true for a while, and it's probably gonna be true for as many years as I'm I'm gonna be on the planet, and probably the youngest person listening to this will also be in that boat as well.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker: And we not all, but a goodly part of our problems come from from assuming that that humans are the be-all end all.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker: And if you recognize the idea that, you know, I I start in the chapter on on animals with, you know, if this is the one, the easiest explanation.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker: If you have ever seen an animal kicking their little feet and and sniffing with their with their little nose and recognize that they're they're running and chasing and having a dream, if it dreams, it is it is it is traveling in the other realms.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker: If it can uh have any sense of awareness of anything, then it has its own idea of what's what's bigger than me.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker: All things have their version of ancestors, uh folk heroes, gods, goddesses, divinities, and so on.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker: And frankly, you know, my take on it is that uh the universe is way bigger, which means that uh if you work with the fee, the fee have their own gods and goddesses.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker: And if you work with, I'll go back to you know, uh Bridget or or or or Apollo for a minute, they have their own gods and goddesses that we will never know.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker: Um, and uh I mentioned how there's the hubris about uh people thinking that oh, the reason I'm only seeing colors and swooshes is because I've got I've flown so high in the into the heavens that I'm close to the to the totality of things.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker: It's like, no, no.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker: Uh even the so called cosmic or celestial gods and goddesses that we work with, from my perspective, have their own because the universe is big and all of the gods and goddesses that we have ever met are small enough and less.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker: Enough for for our for our puny consciousness to interact with.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker: And I believe everything evolves and grows and is is is is striving, so and so are they.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker: Um if you really believe in the idea of as above, so below, or that there's interlocking levels of uh where things repeat, or the universe is is a is a big fractal in a kind of way, then um ultimately all the beings we ever interact with have their own religions, their own spirituality, their own gods and goddesses, and something that they look to as, I mean, hell, even if you look at uh mo most mythologies, there's often the idea of generations of beings and who's the you know, of which parents created which beings, yada yada.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker: So it's it's not it's not it's it's it's pretty in the lore if you look at it.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker: So, but one easy way to think about it is, and oh, the revised edition has a chapter on plant spirits.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker: So I'm I'm glad that finally got into the book.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker: But uh, but I I I do have a very short chapter that I wish could probably be an entire book exploring different things like and there are places where we overlap.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker: I mean, there's some places where an animal uh so a god or goddess or divine being that that works primarily with animals may occasionally talk to some humans on the side and so or humans that have a special connection to that.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker: So so that when you when you see uh uh the the the various depictions of animal god head god head gods with and goddesses with animal heads or animal wings or various parts, in some cases that's purely symbolic, and the humans are just coming up with something to represent what that animal means to them in that culture, but in other cases it's a giveaway that that actually is like I'm pretty sure that that bast is way more interested in cats than us.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker: But there are a lot of humans that love her, so that's a but in those places where we have an overlap, um, like uh let's say that like there's a place where there's a river goddess, don't you think that every critter, every plant that is is is on attached to that river also has a special connection to that goddess?
• 1:08:09
  Speaker: Yeah, and she's going to look different to each one, and in some cases she doesn't look like anything because they don't visualize.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker: But my point is when we find our connection to the fact that there are an innumerable number of divinities that are outside of in the we're not part of their job description, it makes us humble in a way I think is useful.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is that is so very true.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: And um yeah, like a fractal then.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: The the more that you are looking at it, you're going to see different things.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: Um, and and that is that is its beauty.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: So that's amazing.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: Um, I am aware that we are coming to the close of our time.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: And you know, I knew this is gonna happen.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: You know, um uh one-fifth of the questions are are asked so far.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: But um I did want, I I wanted to sort of put to you, you've mentioned the times that we live in.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: And I feel like even if people are listening to this five years from now, um there's gonna be a thing about the times we live in.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: So what is it that you would like to potentially leave listeners with, which is a like a practice or a thought that um keeps recurring to you that you want to share with people?
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: I feel like if there's something that you find yourself repeating to people or or wanting people to be more aware of right now, I would I would love to hear that, you know.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker: This is not a this is not woo-woo, this is not terribly magical, but I think we actually need it, though I I'll add the woo-woo thing.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker: Um, as you know, as many readers will know, I also am very much a believer in astrology as a way of making sense of the universe.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker: And we're in the change of the ages.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker: But here's the funny thing.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker: Uh, it takes 72 years to click one degree in the big year.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker: Human lifetime, basically.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker: So uh we've got like another 200, 300 years before we get far enough through this starting point of a new age before things settle.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker: So we're gonna be there well.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker: That's why I'm saying, you know, whenever.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker: But uh I go out of my way to pay attention to people, uh, especially the ones that annoy me or that I have concerns about or that I disagree with on a regular basis.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker: And this is not love your enemy in the Christian sense or any of that kind of stuff, because that doesn't work for me either.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker: Otherwise, I'd still be Catholic.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker: But I make an effort to look at people and go, okay, they just did something randomly kind for someone.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker: Okay, they just were patient with an animal or a kid.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker: Okay, they just did so.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker: I make a point of doing affection work for people that I don't find I have any affection or caring for by paying attention because because the thing is, if I have enough, it's really easy as a human being to remember and latch on to every bad thing.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker: I get it, it's a survival trait.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker: It got us for it got us through uh to this point.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker: Our ancestors were were were were suspicious because they needed to be to survive.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker: However, if I have enough data points in my head that I said, okay, this person may be an asshole all the following ways I've easily made note of, but damn it, they were they were trying to be a good person then.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker: They were trying to do this thing, and they were trying to do that thing, then the next time something happens, I have enough emotional reservoir of positive regard that I can actually listen.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker: And I can actually respond to what they are saying or doing in the moment rather than giving them my cumulative, your your grade point average as a human being is C minus.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker: Uh, you know, it's so I I think that we need to work more on trying to um have and also this applies to friends.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker: Uh I know that if I need to remember the best of my friends when they were are being them the worst.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker: So I am putting away lots of little, you know, little little little love notes, uh, if you will, for all the people that are that that irritate me at times or can be difficult at times, because we need to get through this period, uh however many decades it takes.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker: And that means uh not finding ourselves alone and finding ourselves capable of working with people that um otherwise you know would not necessarily be the people we would choose to work with.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker: Because if we only work for the people that we're feeling perfectly comfortable about and everything's cheery and wonderful about them, then it'll be Celts and Romans all over again.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker: Um if you're fighting empire, you have you you you have to be willing to uh look across the lines of of of of your tribe from one tribe to the next.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: I could not agree more.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: I think that is a really beautiful reminder and a beautiful practice.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: Um can improve a lot of things uh all over the place.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: So that is beautiful.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: Um outside of the this edition of this book, is there anything else that you want to share with listeners about what you are working on now or have coming up or anything like that?
• 1:13:25
  Speaker: I mean, I'm always working on things.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker: I mean, I I have I have uh um three other book projects in in that I'm juggling through.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker: Um one is almost done, the other two are about a third of the way done, and I'm not sure which will get done first and then finding a home for it.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker: So, but I'm I'm probably gonna be doing that forever until I keel over, uh, just because um, as much as I like to teach classes in person, I know I can't do it forever, and I'm gonna write everything down I can.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker: I'm also very active in trying to organize uh conferences and teaching events of various kinds, both the ones I'm a part of directly and also just to help because we need to build more infrastructure for our community and more places where we can see each other in physical space.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker: I love technology, I love having access to uh the internet for communication and for sharing this way.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker: But there are some things that only really transpire when we are all in the same room, uh breathing the same air, feeling our feeling our energies uh pulsing gently as a group.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker: So uh I'm I'm concerned about the vanishing of of more physical spaces, especially as as we begin to lose more at bookstores.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker: Uh we we need to have third space for for for our community, and that's becoming harder to do.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: There is there is it's a beautiful thing to have these technologies, and what we can do with them is powerful and wonderful, but then there's still no substitute for being in a room with one another.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: That is that is other magic.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: So we definitely need to prioritize that for each other.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: That is um very beautiful.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for your time, and I will look forward to when we have an excuse for the next conversation.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: Um, and uh yeah, thank you so much for your time.