Latest / The Mental Health Evolution / Ep 18: A Few of Rachel's Favorite 2025 Podcast Moments

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Ep 18: A Few of Rachel's Favorite 2025 Podcast Moments · The Mental Health Evolution

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  (Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) This podcast is part of the Frederick Podcast Network.
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  Learn more at listenfrederick.com.
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  Welcome to Mental Health Evolution, a podcast about what's changing in mental
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  health and why it matters.
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  I'm your host, Rachel Harrison, inviting you into honest conversations with
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  people from all perspectives in the field, clinicians, tech founders,
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  investors, insurance companies, and all the folks in between.
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  Let's explore what's working, what's not, and what's next.
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  Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Evolution podcast.
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  This episode is a little different.
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  It's gonna be a solo show where I'm gonna share some of
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  my favorite moments from episodes so far this year.
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  It's hard to believe that the new version of our podcast has
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  only been running since September, yet we have had so many incredible
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  conversations.
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  We've explored topics like AI, a lot of AI, in mental health.
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  We've talked about billing challenges, the big and beautiful bill for
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  healthcare parity, marketing, private equity in behavioral health, as well as
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  measurement-based and value-based care.
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  Today, I wanna share a few clips that really stood out for
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  me, so kind of highlighting some of the moments is what we
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  have planned for you in this episode.
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  Hopefully, that will give you a little refresher if you've been listening
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  in, some highlights from the year.
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  If you haven't been listening in, it kinda gives you a little
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  synopsis of some of the big moments that I have pulled out
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  from the conversation so far, and I'm hoping that it helps you
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  as you're thinking about what's to come in the new year, whether
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  you have a business in mental health, whether you are someone who
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  receives clinical services in some way, or whether you're a clinician yourself,
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  I think these pieces are all relevant to what the landscape of
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  mental health is looking for.
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  Whether you've been following us since the mental health evolution, or you're
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  brand new to this podcast and our work, this is a great
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  way to see a range of conversations we've had this year.
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  We would love to hear from you about these topics and what
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  you want us to explore going forward.
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  You can email us at the M-H-E pod, so M
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  -H-E-P-O-D at gmail.com, or find us on
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  social media.
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  We would love to have a conversation with you.
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  So let's dive in to 2025 and some of our clips.
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  This first one I wanna talk about was a conversation with some
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  of my colleagues locally and a real change initiative that we have
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  been working on.
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  Erin Vandermeer, Melissa Ward, Alison Bamba, and I were talking about one
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  of the big topics that has really shaped so many discussions this
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  year, and it's likely to continue, and that was AI in mental
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  health.
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  One of the reasons we started talking about this is because while
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  AI can reduce workload and paperwork, there's also a real concern about
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  losing the human element in mental health care.
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  And my colleagues spoke very eloquently about this concern and why it's
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  so important to preserve the human connection in therapy.
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  I think when I started seeing how fast mental health care was
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  shifting towards apps and tech-driven solutions, I felt that we were
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  losing something really important in the industry, that human connection and
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  trained expertise that make real therapy so powerful.
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  And coming into contact in my practice with folks that have sought
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  mental health guidance or care from these apps or platforms and had
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  just what I would consider to be nearly catastrophic outcomes, it became
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  really important that we educate people about the limitations of these kind
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  of ways of going about therapy.
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  I've also been really uncomfortable with the way that care is being
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  delivered by these big tech companies and AI, and I just care
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  so deeply about protecting and preserving what real mental health therapy is,
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  which involves that real connection, that human connection, safety and trust
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  relationship.
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  I love that insight.
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  It was practical and thought-provoking.
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  One thing to consider when we talk about AI and its use
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  in mental health is that it can mean a lot of different
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  things.
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  It can mean replacement of a human therapist with a chatbot, which
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  is what Erin was speaking to above.
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  It can also mean helping with back-office tasks like insurance billing
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  or AI, acting more like an assistant to a human therapist, helping
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  with things like recording notes and making treatment plans.
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  And then someone that spoke more to that angle of the use
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  of AI is Dr. Jordan Harris.
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  And in the clip with Dr. Jordan Harris, he is someone who
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  tends to be a little more on the positive side of the
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  debate about the use of AI therapy.
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  And I thought it was really interesting when he spoke to the
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  ways that AI can sometimes do a better job than humans in
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  consistently validating what people are feeling and thinking, simply because AI
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  is a robot and it doesn't get distracted or fatigued.
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  When we're talking about AI and therapy, one of the big things
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  that I see online is people saying things like, man, this AI,
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  it's sort of too nice to other people.
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  And on the one hand, if someone's like in a real sort
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  of delusion, right?
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  If they're really in a place where they're really at risk for
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  themselves and for other people, like that's not good.
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  And I have friends who are working on this problem now of
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  how do we actually make these systems safe?
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  And a lot of systems, not all large-angle models are safe,
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  but some of them are actually pretty safe already.
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  But the other side of this is, is that this thing that
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  AI does where it is consistently validating is actually the antidote to
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  a lot of resistance.
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  Now you have to be careful that you don't validate poor behavior,
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  but validating positive intent, validating underlying emotions and being
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  relentless in it.
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  I mean, from the research that I've done and the coaching that
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  I've gotten, we don't do enough of that.
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  And I think that's one of the key reasons why these large
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  -angle models are so persuasive because they are consistently validating.
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  I love this perspective and it really expanded my thinking and reminded
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  me that while AI brings challenges, it can also have some unique
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  strengths that humans can't always offer consistently.
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  So I wanna also talk about some of the other opportunities with
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  AI.
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  And this leads me to Dr. Ajeta Robinson.
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  And early on, I had a chance to speak with her about
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  why people are drawn to engage with AI tools in mental health
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  care.
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  And this clip stuck out to me because it helps frame some
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  of the broader systemic issues at play, why people are seeking support
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  outside of traditional care and what gaps technology might be stepping in
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  to fill.
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  Here's what Ajeta shared.
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  That people are willing to engage with an artificial tool, right?
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  To seek community, to seek support because our healthcare system is so
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  fragmented in ways that has nothing to do with clinicians' ability to
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  run their businesses, right?
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  It's fragmented.
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  Even when you have health insurance, can you afford to access the
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  insurance, right?
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  Are there enough clinicians available in your area?
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  Whether they're available nationally, we're still restricted by only being able
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  to practice in the states where we're licensed.
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  And so how are the systemic barriers creating the additional pain and
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  angst that might lead the most vulnerable people to seek AI out
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  as a resource?
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  I love this perspective because it reminds us that AI isn't just
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  a techie curiosity, it's interacting with very real gaps in the mental
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  health system.
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  Ajeta highlights the limitations of access, insurance hurdles, and licensing
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  restrictions that leave many people struggling to find care.
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  AI can't fix these problems by itself, but understanding why people turn
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  to it is crucial for clinicians, policymakers, and anyone invested in mental
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  health care.
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  With that, I wanna move on to something else in the healthcare
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  world, or really the mental health world, where we saw a lot
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  of news this year.
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  We spoke with Kathy Gilbert, an insurance expert, about the changes coming
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  from what's been nicknamed the big, beautiful bill, which was passed this
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  summer.
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  How are you looking at these various policies?
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  What do you see as the big things that we need to
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  be looking at and addressing in the mental health industry?
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  One of it is, part of it is more general.
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  I see it as just the sheer numbers of people losing healthcare
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  coverage over the next 10 years based on the bill, that's huge.
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  A lot of those that lose coverage, I think will be individuals
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  with mental health challenges, so because of the work requirement.
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  And when you think about this in perspective, something else that's happening
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  in the administration is the dismantling of the Department of Education, which
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  funds training programs for persons with disabilities who now have a work
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  requirement, but the training programs may not be there any longer.
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  So I think it's even broader than what people are realizing right
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  now.
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  So that's part of what we have to think about, plus there's,
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  in the mental health world, for people under ACA coverage or Medicare
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  or Medicaid, all three of those are significantly impacted by this bill.
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  Those are usually our most vulnerable populations, the people that could use
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  the additional supports.
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  Again, the long-term effects of this legislation are still unfolding.
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  There are gonna be more and more details probably coming in the
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  new year, and this might be something that we're able to revisit
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  and give a little more update on, but I love how Cassie
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  introduced some ways to think about this and how it might impact
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  all of us.
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  So in a different side of our industry, I'd like to talk
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  about my episode with Dan King.
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  He's the founder and CEO of Fireside Strategic, and it's a company,
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  an investment company, that acquires and supports outpatient mental health
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  practices with a core focus on clinician satisfaction, workplace culture, and
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  sustainable human-centered growth.
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  Drawing on his background in law, private investing, and executive coaching,
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  Dan positions Fireside not just as a business investor, but as a
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  partner, aiming to build practices that balance profitability with high-quality
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  care and humane workplace values.
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  In my opinion, in mental health, if we leave the venture world
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  behind, if we get more into the PE world, what I would
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  argue is that profitability and human fuel each other.
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  We will actually obtain, in the long term, the most profitable returns
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  for our investors if we really, really care about the human side
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  of the equation.
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  Dan highlights the potential for responsible investment that supports both
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  clinicians and clients.
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  However, not all investors approach mental health care with the same
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  priorities.
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  One who has raised concerns about how the industry as a whole
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  may be investing in mental health is Dr. Jane Zhu of Oregon
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  Health and Science University.
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  Here is Dr. Zhu.
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  Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that a lot of
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  business owners may consider are not necessarily selling their practice
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  wholesale, but partnering with a management services organization that does all
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  the back office billing and administrative tasks, scheduling, things like that.
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  And many of those management services organizations are also increasingly being
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  acquired and owned by private equity firms.
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  So I think clinicians often are putting their heads down and they're
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  really mission oriented to do the work.
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  And they may not be entirely engaging with the larger structural forces
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  that shape how they practice.
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  And so, I often tell younger trainees that are coming into the
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  fields now, clinical fields now, you really need to understand how
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  organizations are structured and financed, how clinical priorities are set,
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  who's setting the revenue pressures, who makes the decisions.
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  That's becoming increasingly essential because clinicians are having less and
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  less say in some of those larger structural forces.
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  And so, PE is one of the structural forces.
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  Another major focus this year has been the role of measurement-based
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  and value-based care in mental health.
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  A shift that changes not only how practices operate, but how they
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  make decisions, track outcomes, and ensure quality care.
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  I spoke with Dr. Dylan Ross from Blueprint AI about one of
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  the biggest challenges practices face in implementing value-based care, which
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  is getting the right data and using it effectively day to day.
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  Here's what he had to say.
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  The challenge the payers face is really a lack of actionable data.
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  Claims-based data is highly blunt.
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  You may have a location code in terms of where the care
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  is happening, a diagnosis, you'll have CPT codes and other types of
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  codes that map back to reimbursement and billing.
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  But it's really hard for a payer to ultimately identify and answer
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  a seemingly simple question.
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  Did our member get better?
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  And if so, by how much?
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  So that's a member-client level view.
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  At the provider level, whether it's an independent clinician in private
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  practice or a very large behavioral health organization, that same question is
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  equally as difficult to answer.
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  This really underscores how crucial it is to have actionable, real-time
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  data in mental health care.
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  Without it, both payers and providers struggle to see the impact of
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  their work, making it challenging to move from the concept of value
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  -based care to consistent everyday practice improvements.
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  And I've got just one more segment I'd like to talk about
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  today.
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  And that is one of the biggest hurdles in moving toward value
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  -based care isn't just the contracts or the payment models.
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  It's how organizations manage the data and bring the right people to
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  the table.
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  That brings me to Josephine Wilton, who has seen firsthand how these
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  gaps can create challenges for provider groups trying to make value-based
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  care work in practice.
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  But again, when you don't have the data and you have the
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  right parties, then you still have a major fundamental gap, right?
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  So I've seen that happen as well, where you have your COO,
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  maybe other operations leaders.
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  You may have a strategic business advisor, your CFO, but then there's
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  missing data, poor data, data gaps.
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  And so they're listening, they're at the table, they're offering up their
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  input and feedback, but it's somewhat theoretical, right?
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  It's conceptual, it's based off of our subjective view of what's been
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  happening and what may happen once we join this partnership.
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  This really underscores the importance of having both accurate data and the
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  right operational and clinical teams involved early on.
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  Without that, even the best intentions can stay just that, theoretical ideas
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  rather than actionable outcomes.
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  So with those clips, those highlights, we've heard from the AI side
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  of things, from clinicians, as well as tech companies, from an investor,
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  as well as someone helping to implement value-based care, as well
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  as someone on the insurance side, it kind of wraps up some
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  of the moments of the conversations and the things that are happening
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  on the Mental Health Evolution podcast.
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  I really appreciate your listening, your support this year, as we have
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  shifted from the Mental Health Entrepreneur podcast into the Mental Health
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  Evolution podcast, largely because of all the changes happening right now.
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  Our hope is to continue to raise the conversation.
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  I think there are so many reasons for us to be talking,
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  to be learning, to be understanding things because the changes happening in
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  real time are happening so quickly.
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  And we hope you'll tune in to continue learning with us.
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  Next week, we are gonna talk about some of the episodes coming
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  in the new year.
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  Some of the topics will be familiar and some may be new.
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  We're gonna give an overview of what we're seeing, what we're looking
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  at, and I'd love to hear from you.
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  So if you would like to hear something on a particular topic,
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  we're gonna be putting things together on socials, on Instagram, on LinkedIn,
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  we're gonna do some polls, and we'd love to hear from you.
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  So please reach out to us on social media or email the
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  M-H-E pod.
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  It's M-H-E-P-O-D at gmail.com.
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  We'd love to hear from you.
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  We'd love to talk about what you wanna hear about.
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  And we hope you all have a wonderful end of the year.
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  Thanks for listening.
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  We'll see you soon.
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  Thanks for listening to the Mental Health Evolution podcast.
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  Join the conversation.
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  Find us on socials, send us your thoughts, and tell us what
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  you're seeing in your corner of the mental health world.
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  Until next time, stay curious and keep evolving.
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  Live radio, local podcasts, the Frederick Podcast Network at listenfrederick
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  .com.