Latest / The Midlife Momma Podcast - Empty nest mom, Parenting adult children, Midlife transition, Christian mom / 225. When Your Adult Child Goes No Contact: Understanding Family Estrangement with Tania Khazaal

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225. When Your Adult Child Goes No Contact: Understanding Family Estrangement with Tania Khazaal · The Midlife Momma Podcast - Empty nest mom, Parenting adult children, Midlife transition, Christian mom

• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Christian parenting.
• 0:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey Mama, I'm Pamela Hinkelman, certified emptiness coach in your listening to the mid-life Mama podcast.
• 0:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: This show is for Christian moms navigating the emptiness, learning how to let go with grace, set healthy boundaries, reconnected marriage, and step confidently into their God-given purpose.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Each week I'll coach you through this season with faithful encouragement on his conversations and practical tools that you can apply right away to your relationships and your life.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: If this episode encourages you, I'd be grateful if you leave a quick rating and review.
• 0:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: It helps other moms find the support they need.
• 0:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll find the link in the show notes and make sure you're following the podcast and let's get started.
• 0:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Few things hurt quite like distance from your adult child, where the communication feels strained, the relationship is fractured or you experience the devastating silence of a strangement.
• 1:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: The grief can feel overwhelming, and soul moms are left asking, what happened?
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: What did I do wrong?
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is there any hope for healing?
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess today is family a strangement and emotional healing expert speaker and creator.
• 1:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tanya Kazal, who brings a unique perspective to this conversation, because she's lived it from both sides.
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tanya was once the adult child who chose a strange woman from her own mother, and today she helps families better understand the painful dynamics that can lead to disconnection, and what can help create a pathway toward repair.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: In this conversation, we're talking about why adult children sometimes pull away the mistakes hurting parents often make when trying to reconnect and what emotional safety actually looks like and how moms can take ownership we're needed without drowning in shame.
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: If this is part of your story, I want you to note you're not alone.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome, Tanya.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thank you for the introduction, Pamela.
• 2:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so glad you're here, first of all, tell my listeners what you're up to today.
• 2:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is your life look like?
• 2:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is a big question.
• 2:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right now, to be honest with you, I'm really working on revamping my brand new community that actually allows what I call like an implementation communication lab.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I found like communication is the one thing that nobody really teaches in relationships via as the fundamental, most important thing.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do I express myself?
• 2:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do I react?
• 2:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do I...
• 2:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: do all of that.
• 2:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's really what I'm working on right now, because honestly, the biggest transformation I've seen is when parents really understand how to approach in conversation things differently, not just parents, relationships, marriages, improve the relationship drastically.
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
• 2:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I want to start with.
• 2:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think what makes you so unique and wonderful to be in this field is that you have been on the other side
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: who shot off relationship, tell me about that, tell me what your reconciliation look like, and then how that led to what you do now.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you're right.
• 3:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was, I want to say 23 around, maybe 22 when I, in the name of healing cut off my mom.
• 3:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And just like any other adult child, I had a lot of reasons that I thought were justified.
• 3:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I felt unseen and had a lot of emotional needs, unmet a lot of, I felt unloved.
• 3:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I felt not wanted.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I tried to seek love outside of myself.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of my brokenness, I can attribute to my childhood.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: right and so it's not to say that not of it is true.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just I got to a point where I was reading Joe dispense a book when I was like 19 trying to understand how to reprogram my brain and what does that look like and then it starts to learn about emotional healing because it was such an important piece of my own personal healing and then I just got to a point where I was like
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, I don't feel better.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm angry, I'm unhealthy, I miss my dad, I miss my sister, I missed parts of my mom, even though I held the most resentment towards her.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would fight the thought of, I feel guilty, but no, it's healing.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel guilty, no, it's my healing, and I was like,
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: maybe there's something deep underlying that underneath that guilt that I need to pay attention to.
• 4:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe this is not the answer.
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I opened up conversation again, but the most important thing is I had to also alongside that emotionally heal in a sense of
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Am I being fair to what the truth is?
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or is it just my perception of what I interpreted based on what happened to me as a child?
• 4:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that completely changed my mind and where I introduced this three step framework into my own healing and what I do with many people.
• 4:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it just completely changed my perspective of my mom and allowed me to release the anger, the resentment, the frustration, and everything towards compassion and understanding and actually even sadness.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then when I realized that, the emotional feeling is such a big part of people's health and happiness and then the relationships is equally as important.
• 4:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I naturally got into this work from my own healing journey and I realized that I was very into health and I was speaking publicly a lot about health for so many years.
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I realize that why is nobody talking about the emotional and the inner child and the relationship with the parents because that's the culprit of so many health issues.
• 5:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I could see here and tell you the best diet and non-toxic living and all of this stuff, but if you're not dealing with happening emotionally and repairing relationships and expressing yourself in learning communication, then all of that only goes so far.
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I love that.
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I hear what you're saying.
• 5:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You got to this place because of perception, and there were real hurts, right?
• 5:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: You are not saying that adult children are not hurt.
• 5:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You are not saying that, right?
• 5:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you are sometimes vilanized because, yeah, you're vilanized all the time because you're like, I adult children are
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're saying cutting off relationship is not the answer.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: that's right.
• 5:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: If a real abuse is not the culprit.
• 5:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: If real abuse is not the culprit.
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're right.
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I get to realize a lot because it's a polarized topic.
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the children are incredibly hurt and they're like, oh, you're victim sheeming.
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't know what I went through.
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: My mom was a narcissistic and it's interesting because two things happen.
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: One, someone really explains abuse.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, you know, the person I'm talking to.
• 6:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: If there's real physical safety and abuse, they're not the person I'm talking to.
• 6:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I make that clear.
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then there's the other one that are like, I was abused.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: My mom is narcissistic.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: My mom is toxic.
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You'll never know what I asked them.
• 6:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is your definition of abused?
• 6:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is your definition of an narcissist?
• 6:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is your definition of toxic?
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they never answer.
• 6:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it says it really is she really toxic or is this the emotional language that you've been taught to use because she doesn't do things and say things and react in certain ways that you want her to.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So how many years were you cut off from your family?
• 6:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Two years, two years.
• 6:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you eventually came to this understanding.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So many moms in my audience are carrying deep heartbreak.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean,
• 7:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't think of a heartache worse than this except to have a child who is actually died.
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: But here you have a death, but the child is still living.
• 7:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So from your perspective, what are some of the most common reasons adult children choose a strangement?
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: First of it, I want to acknowledge what you're saying is because you're right.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a different kind of grief where you can't mourn a relationship.
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can't mourn a child because the child hasn't passed.
• 7:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you're trying to make peace with the reality that should never be something apparent experiences.
• 7:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: A parent never imagines their life or their child is gone from their life, but not in the physical sense.
• 7:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think it's really mean in a lot of ways.
• 7:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the way I say the devil loves disconnecting the family, there's a lot of reasons to be honest with you.
• 7:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: The number one reason that I could say is children who are entitled, okay, who are overgiven overcompensated and never had to really navigate too much of the hardships of life, because they never grew the emotional resilience in the capacity to deal with harder conversations and tough situations, and so they learned of avoidance because they don't know how to process it.
• 8:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: This second thing, as I see a lot, of is the in-law.
• 8:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: The daughter-in-law comes in and then powership to strangement settles in and then the son has to almost pick, it's like a loyalty bind and he has to almost be like, okay, why new wife and my family are my priority, which they're actually right, it is.
• 8:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the parents do have to take a step back, so it's a matter of the parent learning.
• 8:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, how do I still show up in this relationship where I'm not gonna be cut off forever?
• 8:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I also see where,
• 8:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: single moms who had to sacrifice so much for their kids and then the children saw their parent in straight survival and that created an inadequacy within themselves with they were also surviving and as they started to grow up and wanted to create that.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: identity formation.
• 8:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: They started to push away and resent their mother for the sacrifices that she had to endure.
• 9:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: But because of those sacrifices, she didn't emotionally show up.
• 9:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was surviving.
• 9:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: She probably snapped a lot more than she wanted to.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was exhausted all of the stuff.
• 9:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: That obviously would naturally affect a child.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: it could be a parental alienation is a big one where there's a divorce and the ugliness, the one parent turned to other parent against each other and then the child navigates that where it's like now they built this hatred towards the other parent because they got so much emotion and they're here with the parents say so there's not really one reason there's so many different reasons I think the number one reason why it's happening is because it's becoming normalized.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're normalizing cutoff.
• 9:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, whatever is happening to you.
• 9:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: My mom was single my parents went through a divorce.
• 9:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: My dad was this.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: My mom was this.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, whatever it is, it's now saying my pain is a reason that I should have never gone through that pain when it's a reality checked.
• 9:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Every family has a dysfunction, is a dysfunctional family in some way, say, it was exactly.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's just the reality and social media will make you think otherwise TV will make you think otherwise and that's I think the biggest reason why caught off is happening that was not even just the actual unique situation is that the emotional languages becoming so normalized that people are resulting in that.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there are so many ways we can go.
• 10:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's focus a little bit on this daughter-in-law situation and that loyalty shifts because in my coaching business I meet with a lot of moms who have it shifted once their son got married.
• 10:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: What can a mom do about that?
• 10:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 10:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: The biggest thing that they can do is, don't try to fight your side.
• 10:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't try to defend yourself.
• 10:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't try to explain yourself.
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't try to make the daughter-in-law look bad.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: None of that is all going to be used as a way to reinforce the narrative that's being built against you.
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Versus just saying, hey,
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love you both.
• 10:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wish you the best.
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm here for you and always being that steady person that for sure outlasts that narrative that they've built.
• 10:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't stick around for very long time.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's it could be months.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it can be years.
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't as long as you're like that steady parent that's not it's like you're fighting fire with fire.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he cus he's in a loyalty bind.
• 11:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to pick
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: his wife.
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's his, that's his new family.
• 11:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's just the reality.
• 11:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: The more you're fighting it, the more it's just going to create that resistance and the separation because he is going to choose this family.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's not going to say, okay, my mom is right.
• 11:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to leave my wife.
• 11:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to happen.
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so you have to say, I'm going to be steady.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have to accept the reality that I'm dealing with right now.
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: How can I still keep showing up so that they don't have an
• 11:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: What I hear you saying is it's time for moms to become emotionally steady instead of being so up to way and She's so horrible.
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it is it's so important.
• 11:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: The emotional steadiness is probably the one of most important things that I teach parents is because And that's where it's the most transformations.
• 11:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't even tell you the amount of testimony as I get all the time of are we connected with what daughter we can have from a son we're talking again
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they all say pretty much the same thing, not just hate your script word for word work, which we have those.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's, I'm just responding differently.
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm approaching it differently, and I think that they feel it.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're surprised by it.
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're like, oh, I'm used to you arguing or defending it or trying to say, look at me, I did the best that I can.
• 12:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just, that alone changes it.
• 12:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're, one of my favorite lines that I created myself is a child cannot come back to a mother who's outwork with herself.
• 12:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about that.
• 12:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me, describe that.
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what that means is if you can't emotionally steady yourself because of your own internal emotional chaos, why would a child come, how, not time and why, how was a child going to come back to that when the reason that they're distancing is because they, there's too much emotional chaos happening within themselves.
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're that steady or more emotionally calm parent, a child is going to gravitate to that and lead by example of how they can steady themselves too.
• 12:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: A child is usually just going through that because they, at the end of the day, they have unresolved issues and it's 100% their responsibility.
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're living in chaos too, they're like, I'm trying to distance myself from it because I don't know how to deal with it myself.
• 13:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And until sometimes that child is the one to lead like I was where I had to do it myself and not wait for my mother to change and other times it's that pair to is gonna do that and lead by example.
• 13:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the child is almost gonna mirror them and be attracted back.
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: that is so good.
• 13:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, gosh.
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the steadiness that a mom provides instead of being swirled away and just like you can see moms literally implode.
• 13:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It, you see it, I haven't had a community where I get messages of like they're falling up outside, they're falling apart, they're having nightmares, not able to sleep properly.
• 13:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it comes down to saying, how are you going to pull yourself back up so this doesn't take over your life?
• 13:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know me, I'm a strong believer in God, and one of the biggest tests in life are your children.
• 13:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: The biggest test in life is your children, and so when this happens, we have to lean in and
• 14:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: What lesson is God trying to teach me right now?
• 14:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I truly believe that.
• 14:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is it trying to teach me?
• 14:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: That means that he wants me to go through this right now to learn the new emotional language and why this is happening and how I can approach my child, to learn how to study myself, to learn that there's a purpose outside of me beyond my children.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lesson for you in so many ways, versus saying I'm going to completely crumble and surrender to this versus surrender to God's plan.
• 14:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's beautiful.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lesson, there's a lesson.
• 14:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so instead of freaking out, we can just quiet ourselves before God and say, teach me, show me, what do you want me to do differently?
• 14:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that my generation of parents, we were the helicopter parents, honestly, in the worst way.
• 14:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't want anything bad to happen, and so we made our children weak.
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: We made them not resilient.
• 14:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: We made them not emotionally strong.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes this is what we could children who aren't emotionally able to handle hardship.
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the moment there's a conflict, they're like, I don't know what to do.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: or overcaughtle and the gentle parenting and stuff.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to make it known that it's like never too late.
• 15:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you were that parent, it's not too late because how you approach it now can still change the energy of that relationship.
• 15:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, you practicing, even if you're like, hey, I was the helicopter parent.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea what I was doing and I could see how that affected you.
• 15:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love for you to be able to share a little bit more about how that was for you.
• 15:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And just hear of them instead of saying did the best that I can and this isn't even though I say that to parents.
• 15:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know you did the best that you can.
• 15:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't go and repeat that to your child.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because what that tells the child is, My excuse is bigger than your pain.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: My reasons are bigger than your hurt.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they clock out.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: They get defensive.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: They become avoidant of that.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the reality is it's never too late.
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's about saying, okay, how am I going to approach it now?
• 16:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't matter if your child is 14 or 40.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: exactly.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about that component.
• 16:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So once a mom is in this situation where a child has cut her off, step one is to calm down and say, Lord, what are you trying to grow in me?
• 16:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you want me to do?
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because it starts with us.
• 16:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: How am I going to change?
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: What I'm I going to do different.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about some other thing she can do.
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's all around
• 16:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
• 16:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: The first thing that I would say is I actually have an exercise about this in my community and it's really to notice.
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: what I call observation versus evaluation and it's a concept that I learned when I was studying communication for so long.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: The recent way I actually studied communication for so long is because I was that angry child that was very aggressive in the way that I spoke and eventually had to learn to say there's another way to communicate.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's observation versus evaluation which means oftentimes we're projecting on to someone what we think is
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: The question is going to get defensive.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're talking, oh, you're being selfish.
• 17:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're punishing me by cutting me off.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's on an observation.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's now becoming a predicament to belt them and their behavior.
• 17:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even though what's underneath it, the actual observation, for example, is you haven't spoken to me in three months.
• 17:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: where you both can agree that it's a fact.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as once you start to notice that they say, okay, when I'm approaching it, or I want to make something known to the other person, how can I say what's actually a fact versus my opinion?
• 17:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you, my opinion, for example, is, oh, you haven't spoken to me three months, I think that's selfish, but you can't say you're selfish and expect them to understand what's happening underneath it, which brings me to,
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: feelings versus thoughts.
• 17:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 17:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty much saying a lot of the times we put the word I feel in front of a thought.
• 17:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 17:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we make it like I feel like you're being selfish.
• 18:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, no, if you can add, I think that instead of I feel, then it's a thought.
• 18:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that yourself is.
• 18:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So instead it's like, I feel,
• 18:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just an emotion out.
• 18:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel hurt.
• 18:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel sad.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel disappointed.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel this.
• 18:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel and whatever that emotion is, literally, one sentence.
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so that changed the way you can say, hey, I feel sad that we haven't spoken in three months.
• 18:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is the person going to be as defensive as I feel like you're selfish because you're not talking to me?
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, friend.
• 18:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Something as simple as that can really change someone's response to you by coming from a place of fat and a real emotion feeling versus a predicament of their character.
• 18:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, boy, that is tricky though, right?
• 18:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Brody teach.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's your right panel.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why you need to know what he does.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: In school you're not taught any of this stuff anywhere.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're never taught this stuff.
• 18:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you're navigating a society that's very, I feel that.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel this.
• 19:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, it's an indication of then.
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're taught that in school.
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're taught that everywhere.
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it does take work.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: However, once you do it a few times and you start to build that, it's like, oh my goodness, this is changing all of my relationships, especially the defensiveness, right?
• 19:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Where someone says, hey, I don't like how you did this.
• 19:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or you hurt me when you said this.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And your automatic response is to explain yourself because if you can explain yourself, then they're going to see that your intention is not to hurt them.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the other person here is, my feelings don't matter.
• 19:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Their reason is bigger than that.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a don't defend yourself.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Ask questions.
• 19:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just say, I'm sorry that I made you feel that way.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell me a little bit more about how that made you feel?
• 19:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when you open up that conversation, it allows you to be like, wow, I didn't even see it that way.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I share my perspective on how I was approaching it?
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then that opens up for that healthy dialogue?
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel statements truly are gold.
• 19:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Gold, because they're not opinion.
• 19:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not perception.
• 19:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're just like, I feel sad that we haven't talked in three months.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you just wait and it's weird for someone to be like, I'm angry at you because you said that word if you're like, I think you're selfish and it's another on defense mode.
• 20:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now there's no healthy conversations that's going to come out of that because you've made allegations about their character when really underneath that is just your need to feel acknowledge that you're sad.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey Mama, if your house feels too quiet and your heart feels too heavy after launching your child, I've created a guide just for you.
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's called journaling through transitional grief.
• 20:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: A gentle, faith-filled resource to help you process the deep emotions of letting go.
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Inside, you'll find six reflection questions that will help you name your feelings.
• 20:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: invite God into the grief and experience his comfort in the middle of change.
• 20:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, transitional grief is only his season and God is leading you toward peace, purpose, and joy.
• 21:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can grab your free copy at the link in the show notes.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, let's get back to our conversation.
• 21:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, but I wonder if the child also has that same need.
• 21:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You nailed it.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, so let's talk about that.
• 21:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: because it goes both ways, right?
• 21:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Underneath every feeling of that is an unmet need.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: A need for connection, a need to be seen, a need to be heard, a need to be acknowledged, a need for support.
• 21:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's an underlying need under each one of these feelings.
• 21:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if the parent pays a little bit of attention of what is the underlying need, you're gonna approach it based on that underlying need, not the surface words.
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, even if they're like, oh, you're toxic.
• 21:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's not take it personally.
• 21:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's try and say, what's underneath that knee?
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do they need?
• 21:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do they need to see?
• 21:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are they lacking connection?
• 21:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do they feel like they need to be heard?
• 21:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Have I heard them?
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see what I'm saying when you start to understand that I have an entire presentation of my community on this, so it makes a lot more sense.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's what you approach it with.
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is everything on this surface?
• 22:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it like we talked about in your selfish?
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're toxic.
• 22:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Parents do it, children do it.
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody does that.
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But instead of taking everything as a personal attack, it's weight.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do they need?
• 22:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is the underlying need that they have not received?
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And how can I approach it in a way that I'm going to speak to that need versus my own personal defense?
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, is it okay to say you're in a conflict with an adult child?
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it okay to say what do you need?
• 22:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it okay to be that direct?
• 22:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 22:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 22:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And see, tell me one specific thing.
• 22:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: One specific thing, what do you need?
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: What could I do to help this?
• 22:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is there one particular thing?
• 22:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: But once again, no one has taught that.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the biggest thing Kamala, no one has taught how to express their needs.
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll say, for example, I need more space.
• 22:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?
• 22:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's that mean?
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I need more attention.
• 22:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 22:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that it has to be specific?
• 22:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if someone were to say, hey, I need more space.
• 22:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I will, no problem, give you space.
• 22:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you okay if we, maybe speak once a week?
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Does that give you enough space?
• 23:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be specific.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: No one has been taught to express their needs because we don't even know how to do that.
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: How are you going to ask someone else to express their needs of us ourselves have never been trained to say, what do you need?
• 23:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't tell you how many times I've asked people and say, what do you need and they don't know?
• 23:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: They know what they don't want, but they have no idea how to articulate their needs.
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but he taught them that.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've been taught.
• 23:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Their feelings are ungood.
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fine.
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm okay.
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not okay.
• 23:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: No one has every use the words.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm disappointed.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling anxious, like not the same way.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't know how to express some of those needs where it's like,
• 23:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would love to just be able to get once a week phone call from you because that I need that from you because that's going to make me feel like I'm at her in your life.
• 23:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 23:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I need.
• 23:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I need that.
• 23:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I love people don't know how to express that.
• 23:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I think there's some language around this idea of helping people feel safe together, right?
• 24:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want my adult kids to feel safe when they're with me.
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we can talk about anything.
• 24:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, what can that look like?
• 24:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: How would a mom do to achieve that in a relationship?
• 24:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big question.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it comes down to what we're talking about getting in the emotional steadiness is because you can't, you cannot approach a conversation when you're anxious and panic, feeling urgent or defensive.
• 24:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can't approach a healthy conversation because the energy underneath all of that is going to be felt by the recipient, right?
• 24:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: The person on the other side.
• 24:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the reality is, that's why it still comes down to that emotional steadiness because then you just, when you're emotionally steady, you're calmer, when your comma, your perception is different, right?
• 24:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now it's your prefrontal cortex that's working on a big deal.
• 24:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's better flight and so you're more aware and conscious of how you're approaching it, which is going to be felt on the other side.
• 24:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Clear.
• 24:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's the first thing.
• 24:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then from there, it's like, how can I,
• 25:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Understand their needs a little bit better before I make it about me.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to go in and be able to have a healthier conversation over making sure that I'm right or I have to feel good There's no ego.
• 25:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's none of that involved.
• 25:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
• 25:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's good.
• 25:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Let's talk to the mom who has been cut off and now she's calmed herself.
• 25:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's realizing there's some work I have to do What is her first step?
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is her first step to try to reconnect?
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, I cover that exact in the Reconnect starter kids, a few good ones.
• 25:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's honestly sometimes it's as simple as, hey, I was thinking about you today.
• 25:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love you.
• 25:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you have an agreed day.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: No full life-long messages of explanations and stuff like that.
• 25:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Over time, the messages can be a little bit more intentional.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: For example,
• 25:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Two examples.
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: One could be an intentional apology.
• 25:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: One intentional apology.
• 25:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, one, no, I'm not, I'm apologizing for everything and anything.
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now it's your, the villain of the story.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: First is intentional.
• 26:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I remember how, and I'm going to use my example for me of my mom.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remembered how I forgot your birthday cake on March 5th.
• 26:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I genuinely want to say I'm so sorry.
• 26:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can only imagine how unseen you felt.
• 26:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no explanations though, and this is where the mistake happens, where sometimes I'm so sorry for what is going, that happened, I was going through a traumatic experience with my husband and my family at the time and I didn't know better, see how now it became about your reasoning.
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now became about young.
• 26:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's none of that.
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's usually how it starts.
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, some parents get responses literally right away to the point that they're like, I don't know what to do.
• 26:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: They am.
• 26:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, what can you do?
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do.
• 26:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And other parents are like, I sent two messages and it didn't work.
• 26:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's no.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is what you have to do to slowly reprogram their nervous system and yours to say it's safe to open up that conversation and some people could take one week, some people would take months, some people could take a year or two and that's just the reality of it depending on how deep that pain runs for.
• 27:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 27:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we don't over apologize.
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't give all the reasons.
• 27:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: We leave state something like I love you and I miss you.
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like short,
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's beautiful.
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, as we're wrapping up today, Tanya, I want you to speak to the mom who feels hopeless.
• 27:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: What would you say to her?
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: The reason why someone typically feels hopeless is because they've lost their purpose and light outside of being a mother and might be him.
• 27:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: and the one thing that I could say is if you're still breathing on Earth, your purpose is still here and spend your energy learning on how you can reconnect with your child but even more so on who you are.
• 27:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you hear for?
• 27:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Find that light again in your life because all you can say is I'm going to do what I can control in the situation which is the outreach is but I can't force them back.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I need to find my purpose.
• 28:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the reason why people are helpless or depressed is because they've lost any light.
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've attached, and here's a really interesting thing.
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've attached their identity to being a mom.
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's good.
• 28:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm very similar feeling because you're like, yeah, I was a stay at home mom, that's fine.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: But at some point, whether you're strange or not, you're going to be an empty nester.
• 28:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was a little bit.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be an empty nester and then what?
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Find something for you.
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dude, it's like you feel a little bit excited about life again.
• 28:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: You wake up excited, you feel inspired to do certain things, and that naturally will definitely pull you out of helplessness in that depression.
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
• 28:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
• 28:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I started my ministry to MTF's moms after raising five kids.
• 28:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what should I do now?
• 28:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And here we are.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ah, that's beautiful.
• 28:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for being here today.
• 28:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love the hope that you provide.
• 28:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love that it's all about understanding emotional intelligence and communicating differently.
• 29:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is so good.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love your work.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want you to tell my listeners where they can find you
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks.
• 29:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Tanya Kazal is where you could find me.
• 29:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's my website across social media everywhere.
• 29:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can pretty much Google me.
• 29:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you could find all my programs there, too.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the cancel culture is the number one.
• 29:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's my best seller.
• 29:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's really the new rules of family repair.
• 29:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So understanding how the language has changed, narcissism, trauma, toxic, all of that.
• 29:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the reconnect starter case, I'll pin out that you understand that.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: How do I reach out and do those first steps?
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what does that look like?
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Listeners, go get her program because it's a good one, it's going to help you immensely.
• 29:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: If today's episodes are something in your heart, maybe grief, regret, confusion, or even a little hope, I just want you to pause and remind you of this.
• 29:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: No a relationship story is beyond God's reach.
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's your coaching tip of the week.
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: In each episode, I will give you one actionable step to improve your life.
• 30:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, you can't change everything, but you can take one step to be better.
• 30:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: This week I want you to sit with the Lord and ask him, Lord, what do you want me to do?
• 30:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you want to heal in me?
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you want to change in me so that I can find my way back to my adult child?
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember this, healing and family relationships is often slow.
• 30:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it begins with hard reflection and sometimes it requires surrender.
• 30:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes the outcome is in what we hope for, at least not yet, but friend, your story is not finished.
• 30:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a mom, carrying the ache of distance within a adult child, I pray this conversation gave you wisdom, compassion, and a clearer understanding of what healthy repair can look like.
• 30:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if this episode encouraged you, would you take a moment to share it with another mom who may need it?
• 30:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the easiest way to help hurting moms find hope.
• 30:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And until next time, keep trusting God with the ones you love the most.
• 31:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, you've got this, and God's got you.
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for spending time with me on the Midlife Mama podcast.
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: My hope is that you leave each episode feeling encouraged, grounded, and clearer.
• 31:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Clearer about what you're feeling, what God may be stirring in you, and how to move forward in the season of the empty nest.
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Through these conversations, I'm not just sharing stories, I'm coaching you, helping you name what's happening beneath the service, challenging the thoughts that keep you stuck and take intentional steps toward peace and confidence as a midlife mom.
• 31:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're ready to go deeper and want personalized coaching support, I invite you to apply for coaching.
• 31:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Coaching is a focused one-on-one space where we work together to gain clarity, process emotions, and discern what God is calling you to in this next chapter.
• 31:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll find the application linked in the show notes and let's stay connected.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can find me on Instagram at PHinkleman.
• 31:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's P-H-E-M-K-E-L-M-A-N, or on Facebook at Bammala Higlman, Emptinessed Coach.
• 32:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to figure out the season alone, Mama.
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Support and direction are possible, and I'm here when you're ready.