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Pentagon upheaval after Driscoll resignation · THE DAILY BRIEF

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  Speaker 1: Tonight, the White House has announced that U.S. Army Secretary
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  Speaker 1: Dan Driscoll is resigning after just 18 months in office.
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  Speaker 1: Driscoll was close to Vice President J.D. Vance, a Yale
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  Speaker 1: Law School classmate, and reportedly clashed with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.
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  Speaker 1: In April, Hegseth ousted the Army Chief of Staff, who
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  Speaker 1: worked closely with Driscoll. His resignation leaves the Army without
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  Speaker 1: a Senate-confirmed civilian or military leader. Driscoll was known for
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  Speaker 1: favoring modernizing the military along the lines of Ukraine's innovative
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  Speaker 1: use of drones and other technology. We're joining me now
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  Speaker 1: is Michael O'Hanlon. He's director of research for the foreign
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  Speaker 1: policy program at Brookings Institution. Michael is one of Washington's
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  Speaker 1: leading defense thinkers. He's advised Democrats and Republicans on policy
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  Speaker 1: and written extensively on America's military policy. readiness. Michael, it's
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  Speaker 1: good to have you with us. What does Dan Driscoll's
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  Speaker 1: resignation mean? Is this a personnel issue? Does it impact
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  Speaker 1: the U.S. military, or is it a combination of both?
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  Speaker 2: Greetings, and thank you for the chance to be on
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  Speaker 2: the show. Well, I think the way I put it
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  Speaker 2: is that Secretary Hegseth is running a huge experiment, and
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  Speaker 2: an experiment that I would rather that he not run.
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  Speaker 2: He's testing the strength of the institutional army as well
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  Speaker 2: as the ability of the Army to keep moving forward
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  Speaker 2: on innovation and the adoption of new technologies like drones
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  Speaker 2: and AI. And the good news here, and that's why
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  Speaker 2: it's sort of an experiment, there is good news. The
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  Speaker 2: Army is very deep, has a lot of bench strength,
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  Speaker 2: and a lot of good people left, despite the losses
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  Speaker 2: at the top. And on top of that, beneath Secretary Hegseth,
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  Speaker 2: there are a lot of very good civilians who are
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  Speaker 2: pushing this transformation or modernization agenda and really get the
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  Speaker 2: importance of adopting much of what we're seeing happen in
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  Speaker 2: Ukraine and expanding that and adopting it within the U.S.
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  Speaker 2: Armed Forces. That's the good news. The bad news is
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  Speaker 2: sometimes you only get superstar talent once in a moon,
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  Speaker 2: once in a blue moon. And if you have really
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  Speaker 2: good people that you're eliminating because you don't like them
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  Speaker 2: or you think they were too close to President Biden,
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  Speaker 2: or they were too friendly towards gender inequity issues or
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  Speaker 2: too culturally woke, and that's your only real reason for
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  Speaker 2: getting rid of them, or because you just don't like
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  Speaker 2: them and get along with them very well, they challenge
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  Speaker 2: you occasionally in a healthy but still way that's not appreciated,
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  Speaker 2: then you may be fired. And what Secretary Hegseth has
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  Speaker 2: done is to take out some of that top talent,
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  Speaker 2: for example, Chris Donahue, who was an important U.S. general
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  Speaker 2: in Europe until just recently and widely seen as a superstar.
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  Speaker 2: And also he's causing a lot of turbulence and disruption
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  Speaker 2: because if people are constantly looking over their back, wondering
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  Speaker 2: if they're on the wrong side of a political litmus
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  Speaker 2: test within the Pentagon, and I don't mean Republican, Democrat,
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  Speaker 2: I mean more like whose camp are you with, then
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  Speaker 2: that can get in the way of more important issues
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  Speaker 2: and more important agendas. So I think Hegseth's ideas here
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  Speaker 2: are bad. His style is unpromising, unhelpful, and he's running
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  Speaker 2: a great experiment as to whether we can withstand this
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  Speaker 2: kind of turbulence in the Army and the Armed Forces
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  Speaker 2: more generally over these four years of Trump 2.0.
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  Speaker 1: Michael, you know, Driscoll, he is the latest in a
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  Speaker 1: list of senior military and civilian leaders who are leaving.
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  Speaker 1: I'm wondering, when do these personnel losses, when do they
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  Speaker 1: begin impacting American military readiness?
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  Speaker 2: They already have, because we have, for example, some You know,
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  Speaker 2: key people in the office of the Army, the office
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  Speaker 2: of the chief of staff, who's not there anymore. The
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  Speaker 2: acting chief of staff is not confirmed. We no longer
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  Speaker 2: have an Army secretary. And these are the people who
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  Speaker 2: are needed to drive innovation, to keep up the pace
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  Speaker 2: of change. And so we're already seeing an effect, at
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  Speaker 2: least on that broader agenda. In terms of more nuts
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  Speaker 2: and bolts, short-term readiness, I don't think there's a big problem.
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  Speaker 2: I think that most army soldiers I know are still
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  Speaker 2: sort of keeping their head low, trying to do their job,
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  Speaker 2: understanding the political environment that we're in now and trying
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  Speaker 2: to not engage at that level. and still taking their
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  Speaker 2: preparations very seriously. So I don't think that immediate core
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  Speaker 2: readiness is in jeopardy, but I do think the longer-term
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  Speaker 2: efforts to build a better force for the future are
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  Speaker 2: being affected already.
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  Speaker 1: You're aware of this as we are. The United States
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  Speaker 1: is dealing simultaneously with Russia, China, Iran, and rapid military
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  Speaker 1: technological change. is this the moment America can least afford
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  Speaker 1: instability in its defense leadership?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with that, although there are a
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  Speaker 2: lot of times in our lives, in my career, where
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  Speaker 2: I've seen the importance of strong military leadership in the
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  Speaker 2: United States and elsewhere. And so this is not necessarily
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  Speaker 2: the only moment like that. And let me say thank
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  Speaker 2: you to European friends who really are carrying the ball
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  Speaker 2: on Ukraine. on Ukraine's strategy in terms of the outside
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  Speaker 2: support Ukraine's now getting from the Western Alliance network. And
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  Speaker 2: so in that sense, we're lucky to have the allies
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  Speaker 2: we do. We don't act like we're very grateful, and
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  Speaker 2: I apologize for that, but we are, those of us
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  Speaker 2: who do this full-time and are not part of the
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  Speaker 2: Trump movement. And so luckily, some of the problems that
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  Speaker 2: you just mentioned are being addressed by others pretty well.
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  Speaker 2: But nonetheless, there's a lot on our plate, and this
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  Speaker 2: is not a good moment for us to be so distracted. Also,
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  Speaker 2: I would like to see the uniformed military feel empowered
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  Speaker 2: to talk about the wisdom of certain kinds of military
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  Speaker 2: operations before they begin and as they're underway. And I
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  Speaker 2: think the uniformed military has been somewhat squelched in the
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  Speaker 2: kind of advice it's been allowed to give. And that's
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  Speaker 2: affected President Trump's decision on how he initiated the Iran war,
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  Speaker 2: for example, where there were reports of warnings from senior military.
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  Speaker 2: But those conversations, I think, were very short, and the
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  Speaker 2: Trump team made it clear they didn't want to hear
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  Speaker 2: that kind of stuff from uniformed military. That's too bad.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe it could have helped us avoid a mistake.
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  Speaker 1: You know, there was also the recent firing of three
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  Speaker 1: senior journalists at the military newspaper Stars and Stripes. Those
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  Speaker 1: three are now suing, alleging retaliation for their reporting and
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  Speaker 1: for their public defense of editorial independence. I mean, the
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  Speaker 1: story is obviously different from the resignation of Driscoll. But
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  Speaker 1: do these stories, do they point to a common concern
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  Speaker 1: about dissent and independent voices within the Defense Department?
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes. I don't think, like I said, I don't
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  Speaker 2: think most people feel that it's affecting their ability to
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  Speaker 2: do their own job day by day. But it does
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  Speaker 2: affect the climate of top-level decision-making and discussion, where any U.S.
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  Speaker 2: military officer, let's say of a four-star rank, has got
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  Speaker 2: to wonder if he's going to be fired just for
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  Speaker 2: saying the wrong thing. And, you know... That historically hasn't
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  Speaker 2: happened very much in the modern American military, and it
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  Speaker 2: should not happen. You should be able to disagree professionally
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  Speaker 2: and amicably and still salute and do your job and
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  Speaker 2: accept your orders when they're given. But on the way
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  Speaker 2: to making a decision, offer an integrated kind of political
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  Speaker 2: military strategic advice, because our officers are very good at that.
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  Speaker 2: They've generally got 30 plus years of experience before they
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  Speaker 2: get to the top echelon of decision making. They've been
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  Speaker 2: to professional military education. They've seen the effects of war
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  Speaker 2: in Iraq and Afghanistan for many of them. They are
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  Speaker 2: the kind of voices you want at the decision-making table.
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  Speaker 2: And the Trump and Hegseth teams do not welcome that.
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  Speaker 1: I want to ask you, before we run out of time,
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  Speaker 1: you are one of the best defense thinkers in the
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  Speaker 1: United States. What troubles you more when you think about U.S.
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  Speaker 1: national security? Is it China's military buildup, the rise of China?
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  Speaker 1: or signs of dysfunction inside the U.S. Department of Defense?
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  Speaker 2: You know, it's an interesting question. I would say China's
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  Speaker 2: rise still worries me more. And I still think we're
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  Speaker 2: probably going to get through this period of Secretary Hegseth,
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  Speaker 2: who has a lot of strengths, by the way, but
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  Speaker 2: who is caught up in distractions as his main priorities.
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  Speaker 2: That's my judgment. But, you know, if we lose a
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  Speaker 2: certain fraction of our top tier military, like I said before,
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  Speaker 2: the Army's bench strength is deep. And there are other
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  Speaker 2: people in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, like
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  Speaker 2: Deputy Secretary Feinberg, who are still promoting transformation and innovation
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  Speaker 2: despite the distractions. So I think we'll get through it,
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  Speaker 2: but we'll lose momentum. We'll lose good people. And we'll
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  Speaker 2: send a message to future Americans who might join the
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  Speaker 2: Armed Forces saying, that there's some risk of this great
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  Speaker 2: institution being politicized. So I don't like any of that,
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  Speaker 2: but I still worry more about China and Russia.
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  Speaker 1: Michael Hanlon, Michael, good to talk with you. Great to
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  Speaker 1: get your insights on this. And I think a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people will appreciate your positive view on some of
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  Speaker 1: these things. Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you kindly.