Latest / UK Column Radio / From the Archives: Brian Gerrish Speaks To Child Abuse Whistleblower and Former Met Police Officer Jon Wedger | UK Column Interviews

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From the Archives: Brian Gerrish Speaks To Child Abuse Whistleblower and Former Met Police Officer Jon Wedger | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm here in the studio with former Detective Constable
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: John Wedger of the Metropolitan Police. And I first got
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: to know John we think about seven years ago or
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: something like that. And John and I met at an
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Alternative View conference put on by Ian Crane. I think
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: it was the Heathrow event. Seems quite a long time ago, John.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: It was a while back, yeah.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: It was a while back. So a brief conversation in
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: a quiet corner of a very busy room was on
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: the subject of child abuse and what was happening particularly
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: in London regarding child abuse. And at that very first meeting, John,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: you were able to say that in your opinion, there
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: were some very dark things going on in London. Of course,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: you were talking in general terms at that stage, but
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: you were able to start to educate me at some
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: of the things going on around children and the abuse
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: of children in London. And then in the subsequent years,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: you've had a truly amazing story because eventually you got
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: to the point of becoming a whistleblower not only on
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: the abuse of children in London, but on the cover-up
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: of that abuse. And in the interview that you did
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: with me, an audio interview, which has been up on
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: the UK column website for some months now, in that interview,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: you described how you became aware that children were taken
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: out of children's homes in London. They were essentially being
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: groomed prostituted out they were being given drugs to help
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: that process and you were disgusted to discover that this
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: was an open secret children were coming out of those
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: homes they were going off they were being used as
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: child prostitutes they were on drugs and the authorities who
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: we would expect to protect those children so the children's
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: home itself charities the local authority politicians even, and certainly
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: the Met Police, those authorities, in your opinion, were not
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: only not doing their job of protecting the children, they
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: were turning a blind eye while that abuse went on.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: You spoke out and the result has been a quite
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: unbelievable attack on you by the Metropolitan Police. So we're
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: going to say to people watching this edition of Insight,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Please do listen to the audio about John because that
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: gives you the background. You'll find that on the UK
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: column website. Tonight, it's a huge pleasure to have John
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: here with me in the studio. And what we're going
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: to do is follow some of the subsequent events. So, John,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: just very briefly, what happened from the time that you
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: whistle blew on this really outrageous abuse of children in London?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like I mentioned in our audio interview,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I genuinely thought that as soon as I whistle blew
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: that things would start going in the right direction. I
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: thought I'd get the back in. I mean, as well,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm coming forward in respect to some really,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: really horrendous and serious crimes. Having worked as an investigator
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: for many years and realised the protection that we would
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: afford our victims, our informants and our witnesses of crime,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I thought the same would be afforded to me. And
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: it was a total opposite. Right.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: So you have described, and I remember this exceptionally well,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: because I was shocked at what you were telling me.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: You talked about being threatened, basically, in a professional sense,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: and warned off within the Metropolitan Police for speaking out
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: about what you knew. And ultimately, it got to the
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: stage where you realised you had to leave the police force.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: You were trying to retire from But they didn't, at
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: that stage, they didn't want to let you go. They
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: were stalling. And I believe they were bringing your professional
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: conduct into question.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's strange what happens because I was also warned
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: by other police whistleblowers that I was put in contact with.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: And that's namely Lenny Harper, who exposed the Hote de
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: la Grene. Maggie Oliver, who was the one who sort
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: of brought forward about the Rochdale child abuse cover-ups. And
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: they both said the same thing, look, they're going to
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: come for you, and they'll come hard, and they did.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: And the onslaught was just, it was just unbelievable. But
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: what was said to me by my sort of OQ
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: commander at the time, and he turned around and said,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: you know, you're looking at, you carry on, you're looking
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: at losing your home, your job, and your children. And
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: as the years prevailed, you know, the next three years that,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: I went through this campaign of bullying against me.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Led by the Metropolitan Police?
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, solely led by the Met Police. The words were
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: predictive because whoever was behind it, I nearly lost my
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: home because my wages were stopped. They tried on three
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: major occasions. Each time there was three offences I was
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: accused of. which was said to me by both Maggie
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: and Lenny, that they'll serve you with what they call
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: gross misconduct, which each one would have caused me to
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: lose my job, and each one would have a dual purpose,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: that would be an internal investigation also, would be passed
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: to the Crown Prosecution Service. So I nearly lost my
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: job on nine occasions. And also, if I can elaborate
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: at some point, there was a campaign, because I was
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: bringing up four kids on my own, to sort of
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: undermine my role as a parent.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you had some visits by police officers who
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: came to your home, initially quite hostile to you, but
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: I think on at least one occasion you were able
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: to talk to them and say, more or less, come on,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: what you're trying to do to me is not right.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: So we're seeing two sides of the police. We're seeing
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: the bullying side and you were getting chinks of light
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: with maybe some good guys.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: I need to explain what happened there. Earlier on last year,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: one of my children was involved in a life-changing and
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: catastrophic accident. He was in intensive care for many, many
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: months and he actually died twice. On the last occasion,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: he was pronounced dead for seven and a half minutes.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: I was called to the hospital and I was actually
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: met by a consultant who'd asked me my permission that
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: if he doesn't pull through, because he was dead for
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: so long, they believed he had brain damage and they
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: couldn't ventilate him for a protracted period would I consent
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: to his life support being turned off. The Met Police
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: had stopped paying me and I had no money. I
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: had at home a 16-year-old son, an 18-year-old son and
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: a 26-year-old son. My boy that was injured at the
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: time was 21 years old. And I was sleeping in
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: my car because he was in a specialist unit, which
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: was many, many miles away. And I was by his side.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: And a colleague of mine, whilst I was at hospital,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I was asked to attend an attendance management meeting as
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: to why I wasn't returning to work, which they knew
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: all about anyway. So it was a futile thing. And
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: the person who went on my behalf turned around and
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: explained to my senior management at the time, look, you
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: need to know what's happened to John and what's happened
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: to his son. You've got to help him, you know.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: And what happened to my colleague was that they served
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: her with, well, they threatened to serve her, sorry, with
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: misconduct papers for withholding information. And then that night, I
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: actually returned home because I needed to change. I needed
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: to sort things out. And I went home and I
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: was met by two officers from the local constabulary, two
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: detectives from the child abuse command there. And they wanted
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: to interview my youngest son, who was 16, so he
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: could independently live anyway. And he was being overlooked by
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: a 26-year-old man, who was my oldest boy. And the
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: allegation was of child abandonment. Right. But I spoke with...
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: the more senior of the two officers. And I said
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: to him, you need to know my story. And when
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I told him, he turned around to me. He was
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: actually a good guy. He put his arm around me
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: and said, listen, we've been lied to and you've been
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: stitched up.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So for our audience, John, this is absolutely incredible.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: You are the man who has the bravery to stand
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: up and speak out about the state, agents of the state,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: local authorities, politicians, the Metropolitan Police, charities, children's homes, covering
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: up the abuse of children. You have the bravery to
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: do that. And your reward by the system is to
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: be attacked and even to have your family threatened and
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: your home threatened, thereby cut. This is quite extraordinary. Now,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: we've got an eye on the clock, so we've got
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: a lot to get through. But you did go to
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Mike Penning at one stage, who was the policing minister.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: A direct question, did he help you?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Well, as I mentioned in our initial interview, I said
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: that he was helping me. And what he did was
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: he raised concerns to the Home Office and he got
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: the Home Office to instigate an independent inquiry. I was
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: invited to the Home Office... I took along paperwork, I
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: met with investigators from the Home Office and there was
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: an official handover and at the time I was a
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: bit bemused because things weren't really moving and I said,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe he might surprise me. I can't really
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: see what he's doing at the moment but he might
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: surprise me. Now what happened was the Home Office took
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: my paperwork and never heard from them again. Even the
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: contact number, I rang it relentlessly, they would never answer it.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Later in last year, the end of 2017, I met
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: again with Mike Penning. By this time he had been
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: removed from his post as policing minister and I gave
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: him my update and he turned around and he couldn't
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: apologise anymore. He said, I'm really sorry I've let you down,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: but I genuinely believe that the Home Office were helping you.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I said they've done nothing, Mike.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: So this is an important indication here. The indication is
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: that the Home Office would do nothing We can say
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: that amongst many other people, the UK column wrote letters
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: to the Home Office pointing out John's case, asking if
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: there was going to be a proper investigation into what
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: you were talking about. There was silence. So Mike Penning
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: left his post. Nothing was done on the information. This
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: is the common story with the British government, that when
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: information on the abuse of children is put in, it
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: goes remarkably quiet. But it was Brandon Lewis who took
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: over from Mike Penning And did you get the opportunity
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: to talk to him?
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: No. No.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Well, UK column wrote an open letter to Mr. Mike
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Penning in closing the audio video interview with John. And
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: we asked Mr. Penning, correction, Brandon Lewis, what he was
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: going to do with that information. And utter silence, no response.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: And it's remarkable that it's the very same NP, Brandon Lewis,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: who's now become chairman of of the Tory party. So
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: I'll leave our viewers and listeners to think about that.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: What about Nick Hurd? That's another name that's.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Well, what's happened now is that there is a Tory
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: MP called Andrew Bridgen who's actually been campaigning on behalf
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: of Mike Veal, the Chief Constable of Wiltshire, who is
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: doing the expose on Ted Heath. And he's approached me
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: and he said, look, you know, this needs to be resolved.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: And on behalf of myself and Maggie Oliver, Andrew Bridgen
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: wrote to Nick Hurd, bear in mind they're in the
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: same party, and there's only, I think, about 118 Tory
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: MPs anyway, and wrote a lovely letter just saying, these
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: people need help, and suggested a change in the law
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: where whistleblowers, police whistleblowers, are protected by some form of
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: ombudsman separate from the system. And that any interference with
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: a whistleblower constitutes a criminal offence.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Well, can I just interject there? Is that interesting, isn't it?
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: You're reporting a crime. You're reporting a serious crime, which
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: was the abuse of children, prostitution, drugs, underage sex, death
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: of children. That's criminal. You are reporting criminal crimes and
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: nothing is done. And yet we're now having to produce
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: a system to protect the whistleblower who reports the criminal activity.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: This is common sense on its head, or it's a
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: deliberate attempt, in my opinion, to protect people who are
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: abusing children.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Well, the other paradox to this is that we approached
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: all the other agencies, the HMIC, the Inspectorate of Constabularies,
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: who said we can't interfere. The Home Office, again, we
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: can't interfere. And we took it as far as we
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: could And they said, no, it's an ongoing police investigation.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: We can't interfere, which is absolute nonsense because they have
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: interfered or interjected in numerous police investigations. I mean, the
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: main one to note was that the Home Office got
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: involved with the McCann case. So did the church and
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: everything else. I mean, even people supporting me even wrote
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: to Vincent Nichols, Cardinal Vincent Nichols, head of the Catholic Church,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: who said, I will do my best to help. But again,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Tony Brown said, I can't get involved. So there is
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: nowhere to turn.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: No, there's this opaque wall of nothingness the moment these
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: crimes get reported through. Now, we mentioned Nick Hurd. He's
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: taken over as policing minister from Brandon Lewis. Is that correct?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: It is, yeah. And has he done anything to date? No. No, okay. Right,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: so at the moment, I believe the term is that
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: you're being described by the police as a detrimental precedence. Yeah.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah, I mean, what happened is that
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: I was put up for early retirement. And what happens
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: is that when you go for early retirement, they've got
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: to go through your discipline record, everything else. So every
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: time that I was due to be put forward before
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the pensions agency, the police pensions authority, I was served
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: with gross misconduct papers, which means that has to be investigated. Now,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: each one could take two years. So bear in mind,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: I'm on no money. I cannot be pensioned off because
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I keep getting served with papers. And in the end,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I've got a report that's come back from the Crown
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Prosecution Service who have turned around and officially stated that
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: John Wedge's mitigation is so powerful we could never successfully
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: prosecute him. Given the CPS on my, you know, really
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: the inference there is, you know, what's going on?
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Well, the inference there for me is if the CPS,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: if they say that, they're actually confirming the, the accuracy
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: and the validity, the power of your testimony about what
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: was happening with the children in the first place. So originally,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: this is my description. As a policeman who was brave
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: enough to whistleblow on the abuse of children, the system,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: that's the political system, the police system, the wider establishment system,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: puts you in the gutter and kicks you.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: We then got to the stage where the UK column
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: did the audio interview with you. That went everywhere. Just
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: in a couple of sentences, did that make a difference
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: for you?
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it did. I mean, what I was told by
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: both Lenny and Maggie that they will come for you
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: and one of the safety nets you're going to get
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: is the press. And immediately after the interview, I was
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: met by a senior officer who gave me words of
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: advice about talking to the press, said we will not
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: take any further, and bizarrely enough gave me the operating
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: practices and what he said, that actually we can't stop
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: you talking to the press. That's what he said to me.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: But words of advice, you could hinder the criminal investigation.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is twisting everything round now.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: So this was back in, I don't know, this was
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: back about September. It wasn't shortly after anyway. I'm getting
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: my timeline a bit mixed up. shortly after the interview
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I did with yourself, and it was resolved. However, a
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: few months later, I got served with gross misconduct papers
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: for talking to the UK column.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: So they had two bites of the cherry with this.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Right. But ultimately, it's done the job because you've now
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: managed to leave the police. You've retired from the police.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Well, my response to it was that, you know, if
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: you're going to prosecute me, prosecute me. And I actually
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: wrote an open letter to the commission and said, prosecute me.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: I will refuse to accept a magistrate's court, put me
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: before a crown court, because I've got the truth. And
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: the public response was unanimous in my favour.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's excellent. Right, now, I'll just finish on this bit.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I've got a piece of paper in front of me,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: which is notice of alleged breach of the standards of
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: professional behaviour. I find this a remarkable document. Basically, the
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Metropolitan Police were saying to you, whatever date this paper is,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: that your conduct was almost bringing them into disrepute. You
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: are the man that reports the crime. You are the
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: man that tries to protect the children. And then the police,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: total policing, it says with the Metropolitan Police logo, try
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and turn around and say that you are the person
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: breaching their standards. But what the whole case shows is
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: that the standards of the Metropolitan Police is to cover
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: up the abuse of children and to threaten and harass,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: because that's the correct description, the police officer brave enough
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: to whistle-bow. It's quite an incredible story, John. What can
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: we say that's positive? You went to an organisation called
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: the Lay Community and gave a talk.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Just very quickly, what happened there? I was approached by
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: a man called Chris Lambriano, and Chris Lambriano... gained notoriety
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: back in the late 60s because he was sentenced to
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: a long-term imprisonment with the Kray twins for the murder
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: of Jack the Hackman Vitti. Anyway, he's a reformed gangster, really,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: and he's a committed Christian. He now dedicates his time
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: helping victims of abuse by working for the Lake Immunity,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: which is a drug and alcohol rehabilitation centre in Oxford.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I was invited along to talk to the residents. I
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: went along and there was concerns, actually, for my safety
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: because Every single resident turned up. It's a residential rehab centre,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: and there were people there that had served time for murder, torture, kidnap, very,
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: very damaged people with a history of a lot of
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: violence behind them. And I gave a talk, and it
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: was just unbelievable. The compassion and the backing I got
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: from them, I got a standing ovation, and at the
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: end of it, people coming up and hugging me and
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: thanking me for what we did.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: And am I right in saying that a lot of
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: this is because these are pardoned criminals, but they were
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: seeing what was clearly a straight policeman in front of them?
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Is that what did it?
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was the fact that they knew that
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: there was someone fighting for them. And bear in mind,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: when we look at our justice system, the recidivism rate
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: is at 75% to 80%. And when you look at
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: how many of them have been in the care system
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: or been the victims, of abuse, whether it be sexual,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: violent abuse, or whatever, is staggering, and it all comes
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: down to the abuse of children. And it's this repeating cycle,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: and they're just failing to address it. But when they
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: knew that there were, I mean, I'm not alone, and
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: there's one thing that this has shown me, is that
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I'm far from alone. I mean, the coppers that are
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: coming forward to me and have experienced the same level
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: of bullying, they're just hemorrhaging, they're coming from all over
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: the place.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: And are there other police coming coming out with information
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: now about the abuse of children.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: It is absolutely staggering. I mean, my focus is mainly
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: on whistleblowers, police whistleblowers in respect to child abuse. There's
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: one or two side issues that come into me. But
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: what is apparent is, like I said on the first
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: interview with you, there's an algorithm of bullying. Yeah. And
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: it's exactly the same. It doesn't matter whether they come
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: from Avon and Somerset, whether they come from Strathclyde or
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: West Mid or whatever. It's exactly the same campaign of bullying.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Right. If I try to rationalise that, why this should be,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: if I try and say what would cause such a thing,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: what I come down to is that you have an organisation,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: the police in its various districts, and they are covering
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: something up. There's a sense of fear in the management.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: If you get a little bit above your station, you've
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: got to be squashed because you could be dangerous. And
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: the thing that you've pointed out is that if you
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: take one crime that... would bring large parts of the
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: police or the establishment down. It's got to be the
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: abuse of children. So it's fear factor, I think, that's
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: part of this.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: This is a common denominator with all of it.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: What would you say to encourage other policemen and women
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: who are perhaps seeing things but don't know whether to
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: speak out? What would you say to them?
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you've asked me this because I get asked
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: this as well. And what was said to me is
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: that John... People are frightened. This has come from other coppers.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: They've said, look, people are frightened. Now, firstly, as a
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: police officer, you take an oath, and your oath is
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: that you act without fear or favour. And I say,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: where does the fear really lie? You've got a duty
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: in office, and you've got a moral duty as well,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: because we're talking about the most vulnerable in a society,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: which is the children. And the fear for me lies
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: not with what I've done or what they should be doing.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: The real fear is... For example, it's that poor little
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: kid in a kid's home. In the middle of the night,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: he's getting that blanket taken from over him. That's where
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: the fear lies. I mean, what the police do, okay,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: it's a bit destabilising and it's a huge inconvenience, but
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: you've got an oath. Act without fear or favour. And
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I say, do the right thing. Do the right thing
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: because anyone who attacks you for doing it, that's a
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: criminal act, not what you're doing.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: And ultimately, this is something you've got to deal with
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: inside yourself. Your conscience said, I can't carry on without
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: speaking out on this.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Brian, if I may quote Edmund Blake, and he made
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: quite a profound statement. He said, in order for the
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: triumph of evil, it takes but for good men to
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: do nothing. And that is it in a nutshell. And
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: to do nothing is not an option. We do nothing.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Children continue to be hurt. We have to do something.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: And that's all of us. That's not just the police.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: That's all of us who know. That's all of us
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: who understand. And that's, of course, all the members of
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: our audience that understand. It's not enough to watch a
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: programme like this to hear the truth about what's going on.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: If you know what's going on but you fail to act,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: you've become part of the problem.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: This is a festering wound that needs to be exposed
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: to the light. And that's what it needs. And in
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: standing up and saying something... That's what you're doing.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Right. Now, we want to just mention a few people. Firstly,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: I would like to mention Melanie Shaw, very brave child
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: abuse survivor who is now locked up in prison, doesn't
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: know what her sentence is. She spent well over 18
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: months in solitary confinement. I could do a whole programme
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: on Melanie. We haven't got time for that. But also,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: you've been working very closely with Bill Maloney, who, of course,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: is an extraordinary child abuse campaigner. And that led you
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: to the Shirley Oaks case.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Just give us 30 seconds on why that case is
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: so important.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Bill has been an inspiration for me throughout and
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: he's been a tremendous companion. Bill himself was in his
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: children's home, which is in South London, and it was
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: organised by Lambeth Council. The Shirley Oaks survivors have really
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: brought themselves together. They're being coordinated by a very brave
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: man called Ray, Ray Stephens. And, uh, They are now
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: taking on Lambeth Council, really. And what they're doing is
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: taking this into the judicial process to get the justice
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: they all deserve.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: And what they're doing is tremendous. And this goes to
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: show that when people do stand up for what's right
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: and do get together and get organised, they can move mountains. Right.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the statement, isn't it? You want to do
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: something about this. You've got to start working together. We
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: know that people... fall out people have differences of opinion
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: people have different styles but if we're to to get
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: to grips with this you've got to forget all of
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: that concentrate on the children themselves.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Brian the support i've got from fellow whistleblowers has been
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: brilliant really brilliant and the support i've got from what
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: in in the police terms would have been the them
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: and us the enemy the criminals has been equally as
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: heartwarming right you know i have had just support from
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: across the field And whistleblowers are similar to victims and
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: survivors in that when you stand up, you stand alone.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: And we shouldn't be standing alone. We should all be
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: getting together. Right. Excellent.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Now, I'm just going to mention that we've got another
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: initiative north of the border. So in Scotland, Fresh Start,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: which is ordinary people saying, well, if the state isn't
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: going to do a proper investigation into child abuse, we're
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: going to do it. You can have a look for
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: that on the website. the on the Internet. But that's
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: a very, very important campaign because it means ordinary people
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: are going to do the investigation. They're going to collect
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: the evidence and then that evidence is going to be
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: put into the system and they're going to be monitoring
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: what the prosecution system does. So I think we'll be
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: hearing a lot more on that. So, John, many people
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: contacted the column once once we put out that audio interview.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Many people contacted us. They wanted to help. People sent
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: money for you. People sent in letters. How did that
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: make you feel when you could see public support?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: It broke my heart. It was fantastic. Honest to God.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, the people that should have been helping me
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: attacked me. And then I couldn't pay my bills. I
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: couldn't do anything. And the support I got kept me alive,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: kept my family alive. And I have to say to
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: everyone that contributed and supported all the well-meaning, it meant
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: so much, and thank you so, so much. And I'm
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: organising with Bill and a few others a campaign walk.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: We're going to be walking from London to Manchester, and
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: we're going to try and raise funds to do it,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: but it's to raise awareness about the cover-ups, protect the whistleblowers,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: and support for the victims and survivors.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Right. So, obviously, UK Column is going to get behind
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that and support you, but we're going to say to
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: our audience, we need your support and assistance. This is
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: raising proper awareness of what's going on. And, of course,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the more public support John Wedger gets, the more likelihood
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: it will be that other police whistleblowers will come forward,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: And politicians are coming up as well and helping. You know,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: and we are getting, we really are moving forward. Right.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: We know a lot of viewers and listeners want good news.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: You're giving us good news within this interview.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Without a doubt.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Are you seriously saying that we're at a point where,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: are we at a turning point?
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, massively. Right. No two ways about it, massively. And
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, those that are part
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: of the machine to cover it up, they know what
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: they are doing. And those that have done the crimes,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: they know exactly what they're doing and we've got truth
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: and decency on our side and we shouldn't fear them.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't. However, it's a war of attrition and they've
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: got the money and the manpower to see this through. Unfortunately,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: too many whistleblowers do give up and I say just
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: don't give up.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: But we've got the truth and we've got millions of
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: good people. That's what we need to activate. Let's just
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: end on one little point. Say as much or as little.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: as you like, but I understand as a result of
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: the interview and your public profile that you've recently been
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: contacted by an organisation that is, again, saying that they've
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: got children who've been abused are coming forward for help.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: And I think tomorrow or fairly shortly you're going to
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: be meeting up, including with an abuse survivor. Is that correct?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of victims. And
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: funny enough, there's a lot of... church groups and things
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: like that. Again, people come to them. There was one
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: woman went into a church, went up to the priest
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: and she'd heard the interview I did with yourself and
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: she asked the priest to try and locate me and
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: just to say thank you because she'd gone through it
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: and she broke down in tears and cried and said,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't realise there were people helping and I'm being
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: asked to give presentations to all manner of groups and
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: it really is just to sort of highlight what we're
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: doing and try and offer the right help where we can.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Excellent. John, I'm going to say thank you so much
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: for coming into the studio.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: No, well, thank you and thank everyone to help me
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: because it really went a long way and I cannot
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: thank you enough. And also the people that sort of
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: supported Bill and myself, like Darren and Tony, some really
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: good people. Without them, none of this would have happened. Excellent.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Well, there you are. That's the update from very brave
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: policeman John Wedger. What an indication of the state of
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: this nation that the government and its agencies are prepared
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: to cover up the abuse of children because clearly that
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: abuse was too close to the political and the establishment
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: seat of power. Welcome to Britain 2018 under Conservative Prime
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Minister Theresa May. Thank you for joining us.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you.