Latest / IMI Podcasts / #25: "99% Chance" Italy's Dolce Visa Will Get a Real Estate Option in March, Says Madalena Monteiro

Transcript

#25: "99% Chance" Italy's Dolce Visa Will Get a Real Estate Option in March, Says Madalena Monteiro · IMI Podcasts

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Madalena Monteiro, welcome to the Mobility Standard.
0:03
SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
0:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm good, and you, Christian.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
0:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm great.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: We got a lot of things to talk about today.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: A lot has happened the last week.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: We'll touch on that as well.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: We're here to talk about Italy, primarily.
0:19
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: But there's no getting away from uh at least a brief discussion of what happened last week.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, Ireland, but also Portugal.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: You're Portuguese.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: Can I just get you?
0:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, Spain is first of all, this I mean we reported on it in IMI, but this uh the party.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what is it?
0:45
SPEAKER_02: Más país.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean they have two seats, I think, something like this in Parliament or in in the Senate and nothing in the Congress?
0:53
SPEAKER_02: Or is it the other way?
0:54
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's two seats in Congress and nothing in the Senate.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: And the problem with this is that these kind of ideas they just start very in a very small way and then they become uh like a general issue for everybody.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: Um move a little closer to the mic.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Like this?
1:13
SPEAKER_02: That's too close.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: Too close, like this.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: This is good.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, that's one thing.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: And also they're not saying let's kill the whole program, they're saying let's kill the real estate option, which in Spain, just like in Portugal, uh the real estate speculation, quote unquote speculation by foreigners have become kind of a scapegoat.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: Golden Visa investors are certainly not to blame for the high cost of housing.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, I fully agree.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: For example, nobody speaks about the situation of the Portuguese D7 or the digital nomads, where you in order to make the application, uh, you need to provide a rental contract in the embassy, and you don't even live in Portugal.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: And you will only be able to live in Portugal once you have your approval.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: So you are already renting a property that is going to be uh obviously empty for a uh uh a huge uh uh number of months.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, by design, that program is keeping apartments empty.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, by design.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: By design.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: So I think that these kind of measurements, they are a bit of a result of uh public opinion pressure in the government.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Part of it is I think that you know rich foreigners, or not even rich, but just like people who work remotely, digital nomads, they don't have a lobby representing them in Portugal, right?
2:42
SPEAKER_02: So there's nobody to speak up in their defense except the people who make money from selling them golden visas, right?
2:50
SPEAKER_02: But what was your initial reaction?
2:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh were you surprised at the cancellation or the other?
2:56
SPEAKER_02: I was a bit surprised.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: We don't know yet.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: I think the situation is very unclear because if you see the declarations of the prime minister were done only verbally and there is no written communication in the official uh government website regarding those changes.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: I believe that personally I I don't trust a lot our Prime Minister, so I have the tendency to think that this is a political maneuver to say they're gonna end the golden visa because they just don't like the word golden visa.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: But I I still have the hope that uh when they speak about requalification of the rules, they are doing a golden visa, but they are calling it something else that is more pleasant because golden visa sounds very, as you know, there is an old discussion about the morality of of these kind of programs.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: Even though they exist elitists, maybe sounds elitist, but they exist since the Romans.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: The Romans did it.
3:54
SPEAKER_02: So Yeah, in the um wasn't it in the mentioned in the Paulus letters or something?
4:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes in the Bible.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Somebody could acquire the citizenship.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: So it's not a co uh a concept that was born very recently.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: It was it is used since uh centuries ago.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Well, I I think also that people, especially in Western Europe, Southwestern Europe, especially, there's this skepticism toward anybody who's got wealth, yes, anybody with money, and there is this feeling that it's somehow wrong that money can buy you privileges.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: But of course there is a lot of mentality I feel that people think that rich people they either have the money because they committed crimes or something like that, which doesn't make any sense.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh but in Italy we see a bit of a different concept.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh Italy's different.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: Italy is the different respects money in a different way, no?
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Italy is the eighth strongest economy in the world.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: It's the sorry eighth eighth strongest.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: Strongest economy in the world.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: So if you think about it, Russia, right?
5:04
SPEAKER_00: If you think that almost uh all the big brands that you know, like Ferrari, Gucci, Ferrero, all these brands they come from Italy.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: So industry is respected, creation of uh jobs is something that is respected, and it's you feel it somehow in the streets that people at least in the north.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: At least in the north.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: At least in the north.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh this is where we concentrate our activity actually in Milan and Turin.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: So obviously the different there is a different environment in the south of Italy.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: It's uh quite a different place from the north.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: Sure, they they respect businesses, they respect brands, they respect entrepreneurship in Italy, but they still have very high taxes in Italy.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: But as we'll talk about in this episode, you can live in Italy and not pay very high taxes at all.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh there are many ways of doing that.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: We'll we'll we'll get to that later in the show.
6:00
SPEAKER_02: But it's interesting to me that the spirit of Italy is so different from I think in in sport in Portugal and Spain you see that same skepticism toward wealth.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh like you said, people assume that wealth must be must have been acquired by some kind of nefarious means.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: You're saying Italy's not like that.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel it like that.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel it.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: I think that there is an environment that promotes uh the creation of businesses, the creation of jobs, uh and they respect uh the their local economy.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: So they are good, they have good industries and they promote it.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: They promote it.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: And there's certain pride maybe among Italians about having their national brands recognized abroad.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: It's a brand.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: I think you you speak to anybody in the world and they know about Italy, which doesn't happen in Portugal, unfortunately, even though Portugal has so many qualities as well.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but Italy works as a brand.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: You see Italian restaurants in Thailand, for example.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: So Italy itself is a brand.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Um This is interesting because in our job, while I was dedicating myself to Portugal, there was a part of my uh efforts to make uh awareness of the existence of Portugal in Italy.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Everybody knows about Italy.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: I remember um back in 20 must have been 2015, um I used to work for one of the big invest migration companies, and I was working in China, we're doing B2B sales, and I remember going on roadshows, and we'd wake up at you know 5 a.m.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: in Wuhan, and we'd have to we were there to pitch the what was then called the MRVP, uh today the MPRP, the Malta Permanent Residence Program, and inevitably the conversation began with having to explain, you know, point out on the map where Malta was, right?
8:05
SPEAKER_02: It's in Europe, they use the euro, etc.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, if you're from Italy, everybody knows Italy.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: Everybody has positive associations.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, the beautiful landscapes, the food, uh, the brands.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: I love Italy myself.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's one of my favorite countries for for uh you know, whether it's a skiing holiday or a beach holiday or a cultural country, it's incredible.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: So um we want to talk today uh about residing in Italy, um, getting residence permits in Italy, um, how you can live there and not get you know murdered tax-wise.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: Um so we gotta talk about the Italian investor of Visa.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: And I I just want to set the record straight in public.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: I coined the phrase La Dolce Visa, I see it being copied elsewhere.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: Everywhere and and I love it.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: I know Dario, um I know he bought the domain name, Dolce Visa.com, uh, and I'm I'm so happy to see that name catching on because I I that's kind of how I see it.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: You can enjoy La Dolce Vita by getting the Dolce Visa, at least you have the option to do that.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: So now that you know, last week we saw two of Europe's biggest investment migration programs close down, and uh we we ran a poll on LinkedIn to see you know which program do you think is going to be able to vacuum up uh a lot of this uh excess demand that otherwise would have gone to Portugal or Ireland.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: Most people seem to think that Greece is in the best position, or Malta.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Or Malta, yeah.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh some people, uh like my friend Philip May, uh who you also know, uh has uh his favorite is Latvia, and his argument is that look, now if Portugal is gonna go away, then that means Portugal was the only golden visa that gave you uh a path to citizenship without physical presence.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: And it was the only one really in Europe that that could do that because you know, thirty-five days over a five year period.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: That's not the case in Italy, that's not the case in Malta, Greece, Latvia, uh, Spain.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: So in his estimate, is since all of these since all that remains among the Golden Visa programs are programs that don't have a path to citizens citizenship unless you actually live there, then the winner, now that Portugal is gone, should be the cheapest one, which is Latvia.
10:54
SPEAKER_02: Do you think Latvia will win just because they're the cheapest, or are there other factors that need to be taken into account?
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Of course there are other factors because the you raised a lot of questions that I I I think they need to be addressed.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: I think that you spoke a little bit about the necessity of residing in a country in order to obtain the citizenship.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: This is the logic of the European Union, and I think that trying to escape it is just uh killing the program because the pressure from the European Commission is firstly on the citizenship by investment programs, and obviously in the secondary perspective is gonna be the programs that require a very few uh connection with the country in order to obtain the citizenship.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: And of course, Portugal was on the way as a as a program that was the least uh demanding pro program in terms of presence that was the next one to be attacked.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: Um I think Portuguese was under pressure from the European Union.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure I'm sure they were, but if if we're saying look, the European Union wants people to not be able to get residency without living there, then I don't say residency.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: I'll say citizenship citizenship, yes.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: Okay, unfortunately we have a concept that uh citizenship is very connected to the to the identity and to the to your morality and to to your own personality.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: You need to have roots in the country to have citizenship, which is a concept that either we can agree or not, but this is the the way that uh the Europe is looking at this.
12:33
SPEAKER_02: So we cannot avoid it.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: It's a very what they call genuine links, right?
12:38
SPEAKER_02: There somehow links to the to the community.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Somehow these links are attached to the you need the feeling of being Portuguese.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: You need to cheer for uh Portugal in the in the World Cup, you need to know the national bird, etc.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes, correct.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: All right.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: So we cannot escape escape from the idea that this is the what the European Union wants for the European countries.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: They want I don't think they want to completely cancel all the citizenships that can be obtained after residency.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I think that just a way to get there, it demands some more links to the country itself.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: So if you are trying to build a program that doesn't match this, you are always going to suffer a lot with pressure from the European Union.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Right.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: So although uh and this is the crux of the case between Malta and the European Commission, which is we don't know yet when it's coming up in the European Court of Justice, but it's not it's not for the European Union to say whom any of the member countries can give citizenship to.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: Because we are we are not we are not a federation right here.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh we are something that is not kind of a federation, but it looks like a federation, but it's not.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: So each country still has uh sovereign enough to decide who they want to admit as citizens of their own country.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: That's why I I like Italy.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: If you think about Italy, you think about all these uh policies that they have, they have a lot of experience of on dealing with immigration issues, and they have been having strong positions in in the uh European uh uh entities to fight for their rights to decide to who they want to let in or not.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: If you think about the whole refugee uh situation, Italy and Greece are probably the most affected.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: But it but it but in those cases with Greece and Italy, it was more about fighting for the right to not have to let people in, right?
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Fighting for the right to decide who they want to let in or not.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: It's different.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: It's it's the uh it's the opposite kind of they just need help on dealing with that problem because they have thousands and thousands of people arriving every day.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: And I think they have been so strong in defending their policies on immigration and by seeing this constant effort, uh speaking now about the Italian investor visa, that since 2017.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: La Dolce Visa, okay.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh La Dolce Visa that was launched in 2017, so not in a particular moment of crisis of financial crisis.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: You pointed out this to me just before we started recording that actually the Italian Dolce Visa, the Italian investor visa is one of the only, if not the only, uh European or EU golden visas that's not born out of the 2010 uh debt crisis in Europe, right?
15:45
SPEAKER_02: Because it Latvia started in 2010, that was the first one, right?
15:48
SPEAKER_02: And then you had in 2013, like 2012, you had Portugal, 2013, Spain, or 2015, maybe Spain, uh 2014, 2015, something like this, Greece around the same time.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: So we have but then Italy in 2017.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: And what happened in 2017?
16:06
SPEAKER_00: Nothing special, nothing special.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: We didn't have the we were not just coming out of a crisis, right?
16:12
SPEAKER_00: We didn't have the pandemic yet.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Actually, just before the pandemic in 2019, there were approved amendments to the law that made the program much more favorable.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And now we see it's gonna be discussed on the 4th of March in the Senate, um even more changes that are going to make the program even much uh more efficient from the procedural standpoint.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: Because so we'll talk about that, but let's go step by step.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: So it's introduced in 2017, and at that point, first of all, the the minimum investment requirements were much higher than they are today.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: Much higher.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Well were they they were double than now.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: They were double.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: So it means that half a million was the starting point, and that was for a risky investment.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and then one million euro for an Italian company.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, now it's reduced by 50% in 2020.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: And they took it.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: There was the need of physical presence in Italy that was taken away in 2019.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: These measurements started in 2020.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, just uh for the audience, uh if you want to know more about the details about this, just search for Italy on imidality.com and you'll see we've we've sort of chronicled this whole development as it happened.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so 2020, they cut the prices or they cut the investment requirements in half.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: And they waive the physical presence.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: They waive the physical presence completely requirements.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: Completely.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: So zero days.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: In Portugal you had 35 days over five years, but in Italy, nothing.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Just if it's it's a pure residency by investment program.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: So but if your goal ultimately is to obtain the citizenship, you need to live in Italy actually for the period of 10 years.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: And now, and we also covered this in IMI, there is a bill that and I'm just learning today from you, Madalena, that it's cleared already Parliament.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's now with the Senate, and this bill uh seeks to implement a number of procedural uh simplifications.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: So and also something very important is to introduce the real estate option.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: That's we know this is one of the reasons why the program hasn't been so popular until now, because we can see traditionally the type of investors for these kind of programs they prefer to have tangible assets, they prefer to have a property.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: If you see Portugal, for example, 90% or I I don't say I don't know the statistics fully, but with the fund option probably became a bit uh less important, but it was always the most important option.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: And it's really interesting, as I said in the beginning, the spirit of the of the Italians that they have this uh spirit of uh respecting the businesses, and in the when you read this amendment that is going to be discussed on the 4th of March, you see a rare uh legal document that makes an extensive comparison between the different programs in Europe.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: So I see that they are making an effort to be competitive.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: Right, they're taking stock of their competitive position relative to the other programs in the market.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes, they even go to the point where they they have all this explanatory note before they make the proposal of the changes, and they say that if you see Portugal, you can see that the Portugal is the most was the most popular, it raised like six uh billion euros.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how much, but uh a lot of money.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: Right, almost seven, almost almost seven uh billion euros dur since it was launched, right?
19:50
SPEAKER_00: And they know they analyze all the all the all the weaknesses of this program and they say, okay, so we know that real this we have been failing in creating a competitive a competitive program, yeah, and we know that it's because of the real estate option, right?
20:06
SPEAKER_00: Because we see Portugal, we see other programs in Europe, and we see that they are more competitive just because they have the property option.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And but they know that the property option can also be a problem.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: So that's why the conditions that they are proposing right now, the minimum investment amount, if if I remember well, it it will be we don't know if it's gonna be approved or not, but what is being predicted, proposed is to the minimum investment for a property is 750,000 euros in a town that has less than 25,000 people.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: So if you think about this change, this kind of market is not the market of the average uh person.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: So they are planning.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: I see that the plan is there.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: They are planning to introduce a real estate option that will not interfere with the market of the medium class, medium and low class, because medium and low they cannot afford a 750,000 euros property.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: But if it's in if it's in the most important cities is one million and a half thousand euros.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: So uh and and a million and a half doesn't get you that much in Milan, actually.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: Milan is a very high-priced uh Ah.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: If you go through Megwind, maybe you can find some good ones.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh no, uh yeah, the I mean in you can there are other beautiful places in Italy besides Milan.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: The beauty of Italy is exactly that one.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: I keep saying uh that it's very difficult to go anywhere in the world where you just go to the smallest city or the smallest town, and you always find something that is historically relevant.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: So you go to the smallest town in Italy and you can always find a really nice church or a really nice castle.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: There is history everywhere.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: Some kind of Roman bath.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Something happened there.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: So uh I think that's also also people should have the idea that Italy is not just Milan and Rome.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: No, no, people people know that.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: I personally think I'm a I'm I'm born in the south of Europe.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: So I have this feeling of uh uh South European personality, and I personally think that all these uh incentives that are much higher when you invest in smaller towns and in smaller places, there are they are uh they have some beauty.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there is a beauty associated to it because there's a charm, there's some charm on it.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: Um the Italian Dolce Visa has uh company investment option, right?
22:44
SPEAKER_02: You can so how does that work?
22:46
SPEAKER_02: It's 500,000 in an LLC.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh well you have different options.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: You have uh 250,000 euros investment option in a certified innovative startup.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: So this is a kind of companies that are have a special registration uh and they have gathered some requirements, and these requirements they are controlled.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: What what kind of company is considered innovative?
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh companies that that uh have dedicated themselves to technology uh or that have at least uh some employees of the company are uh technology the technology engineers or everything related with uh with uh with with technology.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: But but does it need to be a startup?
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Does it need to be uh yes, yes, it needs to be a startup with less than three years.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: So fewer than three years of history of operations, but so it doesn't have to be a startup startup as in as an angel stage or C.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: No, actually it's on the other way around because when we make the application, we need to show that this company has already at least one year of financial statements delivered to the authorities.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: So all the they they want to avoid a company that's also uh already cash flow positive.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: That's what we do in MegWind, actually.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: We uh we we know that there are a lot of people selling the the process uh how to do it step by step, but we really focus on finding a good product.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: So inside we are divided into different in two different uh I won't say departments but sectors, and one of them is uh dedicated to finding uh uh vet and vet.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: We do financial and legal due diligence to these companies because we want to find good investments.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: We have history uh well, like I I guess what you're looking for is within what's a high-risk sector, you're looking for the lowest risk.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Correct, correct.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: And so you can you can find uh companies that have been categorized as innovative startups, but but which are already.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: So selecting the process.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: We had clients that said, for example, I want to invest uh uh in the sector of fashion.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, in China, for example, the Chinese they are really into the Italian fashion, yeah.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: And they say, Okay, I want to find something inside the fashion industry that will qualify me for an investor visa.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: And we search.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, and we found we found we found a very good company.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: Uh what kind of company is it?
25:46
SPEAKER_02: Like a fast fashion company.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: It's an innovative startup that basically they build uh uh bags, they be they build they make luxury bags that they look like leather, but they are actually made with very ecological uh materials.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: Is this what's called vegan leather?
26:05
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: I always heard about vegan.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: I never understood what that is.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: It's I think it's vegan leather.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure because I I didn't handle that specific guys, but we found this startup that uh and the the client invested in that startup and he managed to get the investor visa, which was really good.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: And how long does that take?
26:23
SPEAKER_02: What's the processing time?
26:24
SPEAKER_02: Because last year in 2021 you had 40 applicants.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: One of the main characteristics of the program is that it's they uh recognize that it an investor visa should have a fast track, right?
26:38
SPEAKER_00: Which is something they also learn from other programs.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: If you see Portugal, they say oh they have 90 days to make the decision, but people are waiting for two years.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: But actually, you'd the program is very digitalized, it's very fast-tracked, and there is uh one feature that is uh I think it's uh the the the best one as an investor, which is you only actually make your investment actual after you have the visa.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: So uh the timing the time you see nowhere else.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: This I as far as I know, there are no other EU golden visas that that do this that that allow you to completely.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: You make the application online, you submit all the documentation, the normal one, the the criminal records, you have to specify what investment you want to do, and you have to identify the company that you want to make the investment.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: And the the the embassy, the the the committee has 30 days to make a decision and whether they will provide the certificate of no impediment, the new Laos.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: That's if it's issued within these 30 days, and they are very strict with these deadlines, they they are very fast responsive.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: I communicate with them quite easily.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh I send an email and they respond uh, if not in the same day, it's on the next day if I have any doubt or something.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: So they are quite accessible.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: This is a dedicated office?
27:56
SPEAKER_00: Dedicated office is composed by three different ministries uh that make the evaluation, the preliminary evaluation of the application.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Then it's issued the NOASTA that is sent to the consulate of residents of the applicant.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: Let's let's see if this lasts, okay, now in 2023.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: Let's see if they have the capacity.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: If Italy now starts getting I mean, look, um Italy in it's so I think in in January last year, January 2022, they issued the first um rapporto di monitoraggio of the program.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: We still don't have 2022.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: I would love to have it.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: Where is it?
28:36
SPEAKER_02: I've it's not it doesn't exist the website of the Ministerio de Sviluppo.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: Sviluppo.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: But no, it's not, it's not there.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: Um but I think we'll have a big surprise because uh it should so so just just just so the audience understands what we're talking about, um the the Ministry of Economic Development in Italy.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: After so they they gave a report in January 2022 on the number of applications they received for the Italian ambassador visa in 2021, and it was 40, if I remember correctly.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: 40, yeah, 41 or 42, something like that.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: But the year before was like 10.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the year before was like 10, like nothing, right?
29:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh but in the meantime, of course.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: 2020 was the change on the law.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: So it it it cut the price in half and it removed the physical presence requirement.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Um I'm I'm expecting to see a lot more if we get if we ever get 2022 figures, I'm expecting to see a lot more.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: So but just because you guys are practitioners of this program, you're working on this every day.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe I can can can you like in your personal experience, are you getting a lot more interest in the golden?
29:52
SPEAKER_02: We don't have I'm just saying this because we don't have the official numbers, so I have to ask the service providers.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: Are you seeing more traffic?
29:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes, much more traffic, definitely.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh from Russians, from Americans.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh we see a lot more traffic.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: Russians are still welcome, huh?
30:09
SPEAKER_00: Russians, they are still being accepted.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Of course, there was a revocation of this agreement that facilitated the issuance of visas between Europe and Russia, so the process is very, very difficult.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's very important to submit a perfect process.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: But actually, we are uh receiving approvals.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: So but your application has to be beyond reproach.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Because they are very, very the committee is very strict on analyzing especially the question of the source of the funds.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh they are very, very strict on that.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: So you need, and we have our partners, our legal partners in Italy that handle these kind of applications, and we have to make sure that the application is perfect.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, so if you had to guess, so we we saw.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: I would say minimum is double.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Minimum is double.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah?
31:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: Minimum.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: Minimum.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: Minimum minimum.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Right.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: So okay, a hundred plus applications.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely, or maybe more.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: Maybe more.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Now 2023 just to let you know during this period that the Portuguese Golden Visa was shut down, Megwind has received dozens of inquiries for the Italian investor visa.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: So we are just one entity operating.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: There are other other the the lawyers.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: It's not that many.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: I mean, the ones I know, okay, there's Magwind, and of course there's uh Marco Bersani.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh Mazzeschi is our activist.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh but they are lawyers.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: But they are lawyers.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: We are not uh Lexia, too, but they are not lawyers.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: We are not lawyers.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: No, no, but you're the only as far as I know there's there's two I only know of two Italian companies that are you know investment migration companies rather than just immigration lawyers.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: So there's Magwind and there's Atlas, Daniela D'Aporto.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Or Henley and Partners.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: Do they have an office in Italy?
32:10
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: But there's not many, huh?
32:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: Davies and associates.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: I know they're active there.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: Why do you think that there's not more you know, why Italy has a super strong brand.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: It has low risk because you can up you know get approval first and invest after you get approval.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: There's no residency period, you don't have to be there at all.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: Um the entry level is 250.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and if you go through a company that identifies good companies, then uh it doesn't have to be a very high risk.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: Why why isn't this marketed more?
32:52
SPEAKER_00: I think that there were some issues in the procedural procedural uh part of the Italian investor visa program that were a bit hard to come through in a practical way, because even though it's it's designed as a fast track, safe program, there are some parts of the process that are a bit difficult to come through.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: And this amendment that is uh so wait, so just so I understand, uh, because I remember seeing this in the amendment.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: This is, for example, the the dependents are not on the same.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: For example, but I I I think the most difficult thing to overcome is there currently under the current regulations that we have, there is one specific letter that has to be delivered uh to the to the committee, which is a letter issued by the banks where the funds are coming from.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: And the bank this they are very demanding with this letter because they want to make sure that the process is very controlled from the perspective of the the respect for what is this what is this letter?
33:58
SPEAKER_00: It's a bank letter that states that the bank has and the funds and the funds that in the bank account of the applicant they have been subject to this uh uh Financial Action Task Force uh treaty.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh and not all banks in the world they are uh they they comply with this, uh they they they have the obligation to comply with these regulations for anti-money laundry.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's very difficult to reach an institution in Singapore, for example, and say, look, we want this letter exactly with these specifications to deliver to the Italian authorities.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: The banks they just don't issue that letter.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Right there are there is a strict requirement for this letter, the bank letter, right?
34:46
SPEAKER_00: That this amendment has uh has uh embraced this this issue to make it easier because the banks in Italy they have a big reluctance in opening bank accounts for foreign people.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: It's not like Portugal, Portugal.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: We see that now.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: People are having a lot of difficulty now in opening.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh yeah.
35:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean it's not easy here.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: I it was like an open bar for so many years, but now it's it's very complicated.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: My understanding from the service providers that I talk to is that two months, three months.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: The bank account opening is the bottleneck for the Golden Visa.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Depends.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: Depends, depends, depends that depends on the citizenship, depends on if you are Russian, of course you it's impossible.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: Right if you are from a dangerous jurisdiction, it's gonna be more difficult than being from the uh from America, for example.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: Dangerous jurisdiction like Norway or North Korea.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm kidding.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: No, like uh uh I don't know, maybe if I've I handled applications from Iran, from Afghanistan, from Yemen, for example, right?
35:57
SPEAKER_00: And these are difficult to open.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: And now it's it's impossible.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: But if uh Americans are considered safe, a safe jurisdiction, so it's easy.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: You say impossible, you mean literally impossible?
36:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't say impossible, I say very, very difficult and 90% 90% chances chances that you won't be able to.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: Just because you're born with the wrong citizenship.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: That's really unfair.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Truly unfair.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: It's truly unfair.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: But what as I was saying, in Italy, uh this amendment addresses this matter, and they want to in the new law asta will make a certification that the banks are exempt of making enhanced due diligence to the investors.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: It will be a simplified procedure of due diligence, which will which will uh help a lot to overcome the issue of opening the bank account.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: And the family reunification, as you were saying, they were two completely separate processes.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the the the main applicant could go sort of on a fast track uh separate dedicated route and the family members had to go the ordinary and take around 180 days to have the process decided.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: So let's talk a little bit about tax residency in Italy.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Now this is not this is not for Dolce Visa investors because if you're Dolce Visa investors, it means that you don't actually plan to live most of the year in Italy.
37:28
SPEAKER_02: But if you do plan, for example, to go through the elective residency visa, or to go for citizenship, for example.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: Or to go for citizenship.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh well, why for citizenship?
37:39
SPEAKER_02: You mean by descent or or or you're saying if you came in as a if you want to live there for for ten years, right?
37:48
SPEAKER_02: It's ten years for everybody?
37:50
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: It's not like Spain that has an exception for former colonies or no?
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Libyans can't get it in two years in Italy.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Um okay, so for people who decide to live there is a there is also an effort from the Italian authorities to create the best conditions for uh people that want to change the tax residency to Italy.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: This means spending at least 183 days per year in Italy.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh and for the investors, for the investors, for the investor, for the applicants of the investor visa, uh you there are there are two options that I can see that are the most convenient.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: They say, Okay, Madeleine, I want to to go to to do the investor visa, and I want to get the citizenship, I have to live there.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: How is my income gonna be treated?
38:42
SPEAKER_02: So but but if you're going to live there anyway, why why do you need to go the investor route?
38:46
SPEAKER_02: Why not just get a electricity?
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Because it's a fast track.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: It's a fast track.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Ah, it's quicker.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: It's quicker.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: So you have the lump sum, as you know.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so three the three big ones, right?
38:59
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about each of them.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: Just uh for the audience, I wanna list out before we talk about each of them, so you know what they are.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: So there's the lump sum, and this is the one that's probably best known.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Cristiano Ronaldo did it when he went to play for Juventus, right?
39:15
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: That's why that's why everybody heard of it.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh there's Lump Sum.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: Made famous by Ronaldo.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: Then there is uh you have 7% flat tax for pensioners in the mezzogiorno in southern Italy.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: South of Italy, yes.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: And then you have one that's not so known and which I only discovered myself about two years ago, but which is incredible, which is Lavoratorium Patriati.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe you want to start start where you want.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: I can start for the one that you think it's more interesting.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: The Lavoratorium Patriati.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: They in Italy like to call it the comeback of brains.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: Ritorno dei Cervelli.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: That's a clever name.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so the logic of this incentive is to uh to attract uh capital to to Italy, so they create an tax incentive for people that let me just say the reason I was because I I'd heard about the ritorno dei cervelli years ago, and the reason I I didn't think of it as a viable option is because to me when they said return of brains, I thought, oh, it's it's for Italians coming back.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: No, it's actually for everybody.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: For everybody, yes.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: So if you were not a tax resident in Italy for two years, which is quite simple, yeah, and you commit to live in Italy for the next two years, uh your incomes generated by your job, either it's a self-employed job or a work contract, they will be considered for tax purposes just 30%.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: So let's say you have an income from your job of 100,000 euros, you will pay taxes on 30,000 euros.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: So it's like the government sees you as having earned 30,000, and then they apply whatever tax rate applies to 30,000.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: Which is what, like twenty-three, twenty-five percent?
41:19
SPEAKER_00: It goes until twelve forty-eight percent if I d 46, 48%.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: But no, no, but for someone who makes 30,000, the tax rate's not gonna be more than twenty.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: Around twenty twenty five twenty thousand.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: And this amount this thirty percent can be reduced to tw ten percent.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: So if you live in the charming south of Italy, this amounts can be reduced by uh uh in to ten percent.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: So if you get 100,000 euros of income and you just are taxated as if you were only earned 10,000, which is and people who earn 10,000 in Italy, their tax rate has got to be like almost zero.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: Almost zero.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Almost zero.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: So your effective your effective tax rate is almost zero.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: It's almost zero, but but there's a but there.
42:06
SPEAKER_02: You still have to pay social security.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: Of course, of course.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: Which is calculated as a certain percentage.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: A certain percentage of the whole amount.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: Of the whole of your actual earnings.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: Like is there any way of setting up that income?
42:20
SPEAKER_02: Can that income take a form that's not subject to social security somehow?
42:25
SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's important.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Every kind of income is subject to social security.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: Subject to social security, yes.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: It's still better than what you would otherwise have to pay in Italy on a hundred thousand euros.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Of course, of course.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: On a hundred thousand euros you would pay the tax rate of around 46%.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: And that's just tax, and then you have the social security on top of that.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: Right?
42:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a bit also like Portugal.
42:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: I remember when I was moving to Portugal and they tried to explain that social security was not a tax.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: So and I didn't understand.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: It's a contribution.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: Wait, do I it's you mean I don't have to pay it?
43:02
SPEAKER_02: No, no, you have to pay it.
43:04
SPEAKER_02: It's it's treated like a tax.
43:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:06
SPEAKER_02: If you don't pay it, yeah.
43:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, as long as it's not optional, tax.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's correct.
43:12
SPEAKER_02: Right.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh okay, and then there's um the lump sum.
43:16
SPEAKER_02: Lump sum.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: So that's uh 100k?
43:19
SPEAKER_00: 100k all gene all flat on all incomes generated outside of Italy.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: Right.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh and since it's generated outside of Italy, there's no social security payments.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: No.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: No, in that case there is no social security.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: This benefit you can have if you were not a tax resident in Italy for the last uh nine years out of ten, and it cut it can last for a period of fifteen years.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: That you can pause.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: So you can pause and you can uh restart once.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: So you can time your earnings, for example.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
43:55
SPEAKER_02: You can you can say I'll take dividend in that year, but not in that year.
43:59
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: And you can by paying another additional twenty five thousand euros you can add a family uh the family into this benefit.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: So for it twenty-five thousand euros for each family member.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: And this is incomes for for this is benefit that lasts for fifteen years.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: Fifteen years.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but coming back a bit to the to the laboratory in Patriati, I I didn't say how much it lasts.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: It lasts for five years.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: It can be renewed for another period of five years.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: If you have children.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: If you have children or if you buy a house.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: Or if you buy a house.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and if you have three children, it's ten percent.
44:42
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, if you have three children.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: So for the first five years, uh for the first five years you have an uh a benefit of just paying 30% uh of your of your incomes.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: You're just taxated in a on a base of 30%, that can be reduced by 10% for 10% if you live in the south of Italy.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Then you can extend for a period of five years if you show that you have uh uh a house, a residential property in Italy, or if you have a minor children uh on on that you are responsible for.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: And in this case your taxation is for 50%.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: And then if you have three children, yeah, it's for 10%.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: 90%, you mean reduction.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, got it, got it.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh as I said before.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: Wait, we gotta talk a little bit about the drawback of Italy, okay?
45:34
SPEAKER_02: 10 years to citizenship.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: Um there's no way to speed that up?
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately not, because the program demands uh that you apply for permanent residency after the end of the five years of the investor visa, and only after you finish your fifth year of permanent residency and pass an Italian language test, you are obliged to apply.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: You are obliged, no, you are able to apply for the for the Italian citizenship.
46:02
SPEAKER_02: But is it the citizenship law that says you must live ten years, or does the citizenship law say five years after PR?
46:09
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: So you have to have five years of PR in Italy to obtain the Italian citizenship.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: So considering what you've told me about Italy's willingness to continue to improve its program, maybe one day they will say, Okay, let's give instant PR.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: Like maybe in the next round of legislative proposals, they might say, instead of waiting five years, we'll do like Malta, and we'll say no, you get PR right away if you're an investor.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: That would be a that would be that could bring it to five years, is a five-year path to citizenship, right?
46:47
SPEAKER_00: Correct, correct.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: However, these changes that are going to be discussed on the fourth of uh March, they predict that during the period of five years you are unable to convert your residency permit to any other kind of residence permit.
47:04
SPEAKER_00: This is to oblige people to keep their investments for the first five years.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: So this is being discussed.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: They they are showing that they don't have the intention to changing that, which in some way I believe it protects a bit the industry and the program in Europe.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: It's a good conciliation between what Europe demands from all of us countries and what is attractive and competitive for outsides uh outside of the compromise in a way.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: It's a compromise, it's a compromise, and I think that this is the strategy that the programs need to adopt to the future.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: There is no there is no chance that we can fight this ideology of uh the links with with the countries in order to get the citizenship.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: This will also be this will it will always be an attack.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh there was always this will always be attacked for from the populists from the people that are against these kind of programs.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: So I think we should embrace that this is the mentality and we should protect, otherwise, this whole industry will get extinguished.
48:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
48:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we we we're probably not gonna be able to change the mentality.
48:14
SPEAKER_02: If I understand you correct, what you're saying is we won't be able to change the mentality, but we can adapt and work around it.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: That's that's what I defend.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
48:25
SPEAKER_02: Okay, and on March 4th, you're saying that's when in the Italian Senate they will be discussing this bill, which has already passed Parliament.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: What what is up for discussion there?
48:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh first of all, who controls Italian Parliament these days?
48:42
SPEAKER_02: I that's the thing, you know, about Italy, it's it's kinda hard to keep track.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: It's hard to keep track because politically it's a country that changes a lot, huh?
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh right now who controls the Italian Parliament is the are the Frat Fratelli d'Italia.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: But this this initiative came from the move five-star movement.
49:00
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
49:00
SPEAKER_02: Cinco Stelle.
49:01
SPEAKER_02: Um how do you feel about uh this bill's chances in the Italian Senate?
49:07
SPEAKER_00: We feel very optimistic.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: We feel very optimistic because as you know, the uh we are bicameral, and the since it passed in the parliament, which was the most difficult part right now, it's we have 99% chances that we'll pass on the Senate because the Senate only evaluates if it's gonna be good or if it's gonna harm the regions.
49:28
SPEAKER_02: So uh and here we have a program that's suggesting uh lower real estate investment requirements in the regions.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: So in principle, there should be no reason that they would oppose it.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: So we are very positive that this amendment will go through.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: So Italy by having a real estate option.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: This is the headline here.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: Italy next month probably will have a real estate option.
49:54
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: All right, I think that's a perfect note to end this.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: That's it for today, folks.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed this episode with Maddalena Monteiro, who you can meet in person in Malta on May the 18th to the 20th during our next IMI Connect event.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: In Malta, you'll have a chance to get to know not only Maddalena, but also a wide array of industry leaders in a pleasant, relaxed, and informal setting.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: You can find more information about that by visiting our events section.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: We'll be back soon with a new episode of the Mobility Standard.
50:30
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.