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Honor God with Your Bodies: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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You're listening to Beyond the Sermon podcast, the First
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Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ.
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On our podcast, the goal is not just to share the sermons we've
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preached, but to go beyond the sermon and talk about what we're
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learning and what God is doing in US and in our community.
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I forgot about the the opening that you'll find out if you ever
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listen to the podcast. I don't.
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Come on, let's talk about sex, baby.
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Let's talk about you. God, So Scott, today is a rare
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occasion because we don't talk a lot about sex on this podcast.
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That's true. That is very true.
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Not something you and I even chat about a lot in our time off
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the podcast. No, but something the Bible
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talks about a fair bit. A lot.
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Not the most important thing, but it's mentioned a lot.
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And so who was the one called to marry a prostitute?
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Hosea. Explain that one.
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If we're talking biblical marriages and biblical, you know
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what's expected and anticipated that Was that part of God's
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will? So for those who don't know,
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Prophet Hosea, one of the smaller prophets in the Old
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Testament. Only 48. 48 chapters or what?
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4 foot 8 inches tall. Well, yeah, So yeah, he's in
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that group that's called the Minor Prophets, but they're only
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minor because they're shorter, shorter books of the Bible.
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That's the only thing. There were thirteen of them that
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were all written on one scroll. Minor Prophets.
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Jose is one of them. In Hosea's prophetic ministry,
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God told him to go and marry a woman named Gomer.
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Beautiful name. Beautiful name Mary Gomer, but
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the thing was she was a prostitute.
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She was a prostitute and so and God was very clear with Jose at
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different points like she's going to be unfaithful to you
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and you've got to be faithful to her and you have to redeem her
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and buy her back and all this stuff.
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Because his very life was to be a prophetic message to the
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Israelites because the Israelites were Gomer.
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That's what God was saying. Israelites would being the the
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prostitute, the harlot, the whore, going after all these
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false gods. But despite all that, God was
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remaining faithful. So that's what all that was
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about. That checks well.
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The other one that comes up I think regularly is Solomon.
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And to make a lot of bad choices.
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Yeah, or like, well, if he's the wise one, wouldn't it be wise
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for us to have hundreds of wives and concubines?
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No. No.
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No. I'm not know how, so how?
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How does God set this expectation?
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The majority of churches would agree upon what God desires for
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marriages and and our sexual lives.
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Why do we see something like that in a leader of God's
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people? Sure.
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Yeah. And then that's part of like the
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progressive nature of revelation of the progressive revealing of
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who God is, his character, what he desires for people.
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You know, you got to remember that when these when God first
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called the Israelites to be his people who were talking back
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with like Abraham, Moses, all those people who are considered
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like the patriarchs of the faith, and he was appearing to
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them within their culture, right?
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He was appearing to them in their time, in their place.
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And in that time and place, polygamy was just an accepted
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reality, right? And so you see over time, this
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narrowing of that definition of marriage to the point where by
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the time the Jewish people even, you know, were in that Second
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Temple period after the exile, all that kind of stuff that led
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into the time when Jesus came, there was already this move to
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monogamy. And I think, you know, stories
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like Hosea and Gomer and that kind of stuff, like it was part
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of what God was doing. They're getting us closer to
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what the ideal is to where in the New Testament, you know,
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it's very clear that monogamy is the expectation and faithfulness
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within it, you know, is, is the ideal that's held up that were
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to aim for. Because I've, I've heard the
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argument of, OK, well, now you know, you didn't like how God
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did it back then. And the cultures themselves
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naturally shifted into more of a monogamous culture.
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So was it really God that wanted it or was doing it?
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Or did the religion change over time to best suit their, the
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culture around them? And then once we receive the
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scriptures and after a certain point, we were just like, well,
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we just want to keep it this way.
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So we're going to restrict everybody else because we liked
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this version or this one is comfortable for us.
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Therefore, you can't progress anymore, whether it be with
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multiple partners or types of partners of that kind of stuff.
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But that's when I always think back to the scripture that you
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referenced where Jesus reaffirms in Matthew 19, haven't you read?
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He replied that at the beginning the Creator made them male and
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female and said for this reason a man will leave his father and
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mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become
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flesh. 1 flesh. So they are no longer 2 but one
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flesh. Therefore what God has joined
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together let no one separate and then it continues.
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That's the part we focus on for the description of marriage.
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Why then, they asked, did Moses command that a man give his wife
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a certificate of divorce and send her away?
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And Jesus replied. You're most stubborn, stiff
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necked people, but God gave you what you wanted even though he
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didn't think it was best. That's the Scott Rambo version.
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Yes, in the NIV it says Jesus replied, Moses permitted you to
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divorce your wives because your hearts were hard, but it was not
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this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who
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divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries
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another woman commits adultery. And so, yeah, it's Jesus kind of
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solidifies the original intention and clarifies why
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things kind of went awry and away from that for a time period
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for God's people. It's not a OK, let's just keep
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progressing to whatever we desire now or our culture
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desires now to be the sexual. Ethic.
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Yeah, yeah. Because even in the time period
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of the New Testament, it's not like the people in the nations
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around them were living these perfectly puritanical,
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monogamous lives, right? They might have had their
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official wife, but then they were out sleeping with whoever
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they wanted to. That's the way it went, at least
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for the men. But that official wife, she was
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the one that was prized and protected, whatever.
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But the servants, the neighbors, the whoever like didn't matter
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after that. Yeah, all the times and how
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we're. Not any different.
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Yeah, a lot, a lot has shifted. A lot has shifted.
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But I don't think the desires of the flesh have really shifted
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too much. Maybe how they've presented
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themselves, yeah. Well, and I think a lot of those
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shifts are because of Christianity.
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Tom Holland, not the guy who played Spider Man.
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I'll say now you have my attention.
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Anywhere you go, before you even got that, Tom Holland wrote a
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book called Dominion, which argues that the Christian faith
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created the context for Western culture to develop the way it
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did. And that most of the ideals that
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are upheld in Western culture wouldn't exist without
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Christianity. Because the Pagan roots of other
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religions and cultures and that kind of stuff didn't ever bring
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those things about like the ideas of equality and democracy.
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And those kind of things would never have have arisen outside
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of the influence of Christianity.
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And I think our views as a society about what marriage was,
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what sexuality is for. I'm talking like 100 years ago.
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We're all shaped because of Christianity and the influence
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it had in Western culture, in America in particular.
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And so with, I mean, our current landscape, yeah, you'd, you'd
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even touched on some more modern things that have affected our.
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Like Tinder? Tinder, Ashley Madison, right?
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Instead of going to the neighbors or the slaves or
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whatever you'd go on Ashley Madison for.
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It's for those who don't know, it's an app or a website where
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you can find someone to have an affair with.
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Yeah, and they got in big trouble, believe it or not.
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Not for setting up affairs. They're part of a big data leak,
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right? Yeah, a huge data leak.
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So people who thought their private information for having
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affairs got leaked out and yeah, it's like millions of people or
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whatever. So friend of a friend that I've
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met on a on a couple of occasions was having marital
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issues. They essentially left their
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spouse for another man. And it was like, oh, you're
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like, Oh my gosh, that sounds horrible.
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It's heartbreaking. This is a terrible time.
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And then it was like, come to find out, which my friend didn't
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know until this happened that they had an open marriage and
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that this had been a person that they were allowed to be with
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sexually on a regular basis for a couple of years.
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And then I was like, oh, but now I feel more emotionally
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connected and stable with that person.
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And therefore switching over after I think like 8 or 9 years
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of marriage. So we're surprised that an open
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marriage led to someone leaving their spouse.
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Yeah, and I am seeing more and more polygamy or hearing of more
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and more polygamy and whether it's while dating or married,
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because now that's no one really cares.
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Some people do about getting married.
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But like, you know, you're living together, you're having
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sex, you're doing all this stuff, acting like you're
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married. So playing house and one of the
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common themes is that they're open and there's like degrees of
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open, like what's allowed or whatever.
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But every I I haven't heard of a quote UN quote successful 1,
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whatever that could be. Sure.
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But almost every time they end up leaving the person that they
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were with, someone leaves the committed relationship to be in
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a committed relationship with someone that they were allowed
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to be with sexually. And so and then it kind of just
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like spirals into this cycle of whoever can not only provide the
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physical, but then the emotional and other stuff of support.
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And then, you know, I stay with the person that makes me feel
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safe and secure and I do the physical pleasures somewhere
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else. And then once that person makes
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me feel more secure and emotionally satisfied, then I
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just keep jumping ships. And then which?
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When we're talking about it from, you know, that passage of
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scripture that you shared earlier, like of course, right
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when you have sex with someone, you are unite, you become one
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flesh. And that's not something to take
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lightly. Yeah, and I think it's getting
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diminished to simply a form of physical pleasure.
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Yeah, 100. Percent it's just it's it's a
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biological need. It, you know, has practical
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pleasure aspects and because that's, you know, the core of it
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when we're just, you know, animals after all, then we might
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as well like Paul was writing to the Corinthians about food for
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the stomach, stomach for the food that's, you know, this is
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God made us a sexual beings. We might as well enjoy it.
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Yeah. And so in this day and age of
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those things being more relevant, but also the means in
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which you connect with other people being very different,
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right, in order to more common ways to cheat or to just obtain
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a sexual partner, you can just sit at home and just flip scrub.
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We're like, Nope, Nope. Yeah, you don't.
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Go at a bar anymore and try to pick somebody up.
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No, Yeah, yeah. Just like a lot of things, I
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think within our culture revolving around sex.
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You don't need to go to the adult bookstore theater anymore.
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You don't have to. I don't even know if they exist
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anymore, but when I was a kid, like 711, certain magazines were
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covered up on the front. Yeah, yeah, right back in the
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back in the day. And so like, those things aren't
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need. It's much more private and and
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easier to obtain for anyone of any age.
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Sure. And that's across the board.
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It's not just related to sex and sexual things.
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It's it's Amazon, right? You don't have to go to the
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store anymore. You click and it shows up at
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your doorstep the next day. You know, whatever it is.
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The immediate gratification, in whatever form it may be.
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But also the depersonalized interactions, you know, you
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don't have to go and hand whatever you're buying to the
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person at the cash register and. You also don't have to take
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people out to dinner anymore. Sometimes, sure, yeah, depending
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on the context. And so how would you recommend
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and you're absent your, your generation and almost my
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generation? Whoa, whoa, we are in the same
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generation. Your age group and my age group,
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the amount of those that have gotten married, the percentage
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that met in person from your age to my age to 22 years old went
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from you're I think it's like 8 to 15% online for your age.
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I believe that. And now it's, it's, it's closer
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to 90% for those and, and around 22 years old, 2020 years old.
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Which blows my mind. Yeah.
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So how can we attach the biblical values and principles
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to the new context? Because even though the form
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changes, God doesn't change and what he desires of his people
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doesn't change. Let me start off by admitting
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that I don't really understand the whole online dating world.
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Like that was never a part of my reality as a young adult.
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Yeah, and and also just recognizing I have never been a
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real adult. I agree.
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Unmarried. Oh.
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Like, Meg and I graduated from college, and three weeks later,
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we were married. Yeah.
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And so like, the whole dating as an adult, that kind of thing,
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like, that's a world I never, never lived in that
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qualification out there. How do you apply it to the
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current context? I think probably has to start
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out with being very careful about the spaces you occupy and
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so. I mean by that.
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Yeah, so in my generation, that would have been like, well, if
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you're looking to start dating someone because you're looking
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for a relationship that might lead to marriage, you know, the
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places you go would make a big difference.
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You know, if, if you're looking to meet, in my case, a nice
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Christian girl, you're probably not going to go hang out at the
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bars. You know that's probably not
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your best place to meet. Back in those days.
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Back in those days for sure. General Pop.
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Similarly, today's context, I, I think the apps, the services you
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use are probably going to make a big difference on the kind of
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people you then get connected to.
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And so, yeah, I'm sure I, I don't know all of them, but I'm
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sure there are Christian based dating apps out there these days
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that you probably have a better chance of finding someone who
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lines up with your values and beliefs and those kind of things
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as a Christian through something like that.
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Rather than say a Tinder, which is commonly used just to find
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someone to hook up with in the given moment.
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I think that's probably going to be one of the biggest ways.
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But then I also think, and this is probably just my age showing
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that the more you can prioritize in person relationships, even
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just in in friendship circles and that kind of stuff, the more
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time you can actually be in the room with people, it's gonna
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result in more healthy development of.
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And churches I think is one of the largest in person ones even
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with with this generation, even though the in person is
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extremely diminished. Yeah, I think that the Christian
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apps is definitely better route to go in our specific
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Northeastern context. Still a little tough.
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And it's interesting as I've had multiple people walking through
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that process of how many people are on those apps that don't
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even consider themselves Christians, but they're just
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looking for like a nice person and they want like a serious
19:15
long term relationship. They don't just want the hookup
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culture. And so they're like, Christians
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are supposed to be nice. And so they go on the Christian
19:21
apps. But I would say one of the
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things that the apps do, even with the Christian apps, and
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it's I think unavoidable just given the cut, the format is
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they dehumanize the person that you are sure like looking at.
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And so I think having that reminder of like each person
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you're saying no to is made in the image of God.
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And also on the Christian apps, hopefully the majority of them
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are a brother or sister in Christ.
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And so having that instead of the OK, who is the physical
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piece of meat that is attracted to my eyes?
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OK, check denomination. Nothing too crazy.
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Next. OK, where it like, I think it's
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the yeah, it's one of those things where you just like,
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yeah, just dehumanize them and and view them as the
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description. And it's hard.
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Again, within the format it's. Hard not to, but I think I think
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trying to do that and then once people start talking and they're
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talking to multiple people because you can talk to five
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different people, 100 people in one night, whatever you can be
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texting and and it's not like, oh, I want to get to know
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person. I'm going to go sit at a coffee
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shop one-on-one. It would be weird to have five
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guys in a circle and every time someone pauses, I just turn and
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start talking to the next next person.
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So but once once they, you know, are committing to one person.
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What does those limitations look like leading up to marriage If
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we talked about in the sermon, single, celibate married sex.
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But if you're on that. Faithful sex with your spouse.
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Not unlimited sex anywhere as soon as you have a ring.
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Just want a good clarification, very good clarification, but on
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that when you're OK now I'm no longer single committed in a
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Christian relationship and the goal of that relationship is to
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get to marriage physically. Since we're talking about
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denying ourselves, denying the body.
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What does that segment from committed Christian relationship
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to after walking down the aisle, What do you think that should
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look like? Because I feel like no matter
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the format of the dating processes, I don't think those
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limitations necessarily have changed through our time
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builder. Maybe you could argue maybe
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digital images you shouldn't be sending that could be a part of
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dating culture now versus before, but physically in
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person. There's a huge part of me that
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wants to start at as little as possible, but I don't actually
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mean that because, you know, you could push that so far and be
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like, all right, I'm not even going to touch somebody of the
22:18
opposite gender until we've walked down the aisle.
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And the first time I touch this person that I'm marrying is when
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we kiss in the wedding ceremony and.
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Those are always so awkward if you've ever seen any of those.
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Yeah. And so.
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For everybody. So I don't really mean that, but
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I think the heart of it is true of as little as possible.
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Yeah. It's because it's a slippery
22:47
slope. It's it's hard.
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We are created as sexual beings. We are created to where for most
22:57
people, physical touch elevates the feelings and all that kind
23:02
of stuff. And, and, and that's an
23:03
important part of how God made us like that, that binding
23:07
together happens both emotionally and physically.
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But I think at all, if possible, you want to, you want to keep it
23:17
to where you can control yourself.
23:22
You know, you don't want to get to a point where you have become
23:27
so aroused and so in the moment to where you can't stop and take
23:33
a step back. And so I think that is going to
23:38
mean that it looks a little different for different people.
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But because of past experiences, because of things that have
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happened to them, because of whatever other reasons.
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But you know, if you want me to be very practical in black and
23:56
white, yeah, clothes should be staying on all of them.
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Clothes on. I think similar to last week
24:04
with entertainment, it was like the if someone from church would
24:08
walk in, you watch in a movie or whatever.
24:10
I wouldn't say maybe not thinking of someone at church,
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but I would say something you wouldn't do on a park bench with
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people within a few 100 feet. Yeah, sure.
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That's probably a good gauge, yeah.
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If you won't do it out in public, yeah.
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With other people within view that could view you.
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Maybe not within 20 feet of you, but yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a
24:30
good one. If sex isn't the name for the
24:33
action in our culture. No, yeah.
24:36
Yeah, done. And I think that also similar to
24:40
the park thing is it's also just a safe thing to put yourself in
24:45
context where you aren't able to go further.
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And that's the other thing I was going to say is because like,
24:56
there are ways to have private intimate moments without being
25:03
isolated, right? And so maybe that needs to be a
25:08
part of what you're you're doing.
25:10
You know, you're not if you're a single young adult, you've got
25:14
your own place or whatever. Maybe the best place to hang out
25:19
isn't alone in your apartment. Yeah, you know, I'm not saying
25:22
that you never have them in you never let them stop in use the
25:25
bathroom before you go. So like that's not what I'm.
25:28
But maybe you're spending the majority of your time out doing
25:33
things or with a group of friends or in those contexts
25:37
where where there's some just accountability from being around
25:42
other. People I always like wanted to
25:45
scream at people. I mean, that's just me in
25:48
general. But where parents were like, you
25:51
can't stay overnight somewhere, but then also you can be alone
25:56
in your room in the house with no one else around.
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And it's like, you do know sex can happen in the day as well.
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Like the sun does not determine when these things happen.
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And so I think it's just being yeah, aware of that and and what
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you said earlier of not getting yourself to a place where you
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can't step back from the situation like mentally and and
26:24
in the moment and that kind of stuff.
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I think that's a really healthy way.
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And that, and I think this is a much healthier general guideline
26:32
because like what you're saying earlier in regards to those
26:36
little possible of things that have gone through the Christian
26:38
dating pipeline of the side hugs only, no kissing.
26:44
You can't hold hands, Waffle. You have to hold hands pancake.
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Waffle, for those that don't know, is fingers interlaced.
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Pancake is palm to palm. Yeah, those kind of things are.
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It's like very stricture. It's like there's nothing you're
26:57
seeing in scripture against any of this.
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I understand you're trying to find a place to stop it going
27:08
further right to a point where it shouldn't.
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But we also have to remember what it is we're trying to
27:17
protect and save, right It's. Remind us.
27:20
It's the ability to offer our self unreservedly to the one we
27:27
choose to commit our lives to. And so many times, I think
27:33
especially in the Christian world I grew up in, in the 90s
27:37
and early 2000's, the the height of what's been called purity
27:41
culture. So much of the emphasis was on
27:46
not having sex, protecting someone's virginity, that either
27:53
you you went on one ditch on one side of the road and everything
27:59
up to actual intercourse was OK, or you fell into a ditch on the
28:06
other side where you made so many rules that.
28:12
When it came time for marriage, you felt bad and dirty, Yes.
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Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
28:18
And and and I've I've heard horror stories where I'm glad
28:23
you clarified that because it's the unreserved for the one that
28:26
you're committing yourself to. And if marriage is the one is
28:30
the a mystery according to Scripture to show the
28:35
relationship of Jesus and the church as Jesus has not held
28:39
himself back from us and we should not be holding ourselves
28:43
back from him. This is a reflection of God and
28:48
his relationship with us. And so how we preserve that if
28:52
our marriage is to be a testimony of that is so, so
28:55
important. It's not a thing.
28:59
Like, I know girls that had signed celibate pledges to their
29:04
fathers at like, public events as if like, that makes sense.
29:11
But then the boys didn't have to sign nothing, have to sign crap.
29:15
And so, yeah, it's one of those things where it's interesting to
29:18
see. I think even within our American
29:20
Christian culture, it goes from boys will be boys.
29:23
Like just keep it under wraps. Don't knock anyone up, girls.
29:27
You're horrible if you do it. And then it winter.
29:30
You don't wear spaghetti straps. Yeah, just like rehab did.
29:36
And then it went to like, OK, don't get pregnant and as long
29:42
as you're not gay, you're good. And I and now, you know,
29:47
depending on the circles, it's we'll stick with the don't get
29:51
pregnant, don't get a disease, Yeah.
29:53
And whatever. And that's, you know about it.
29:55
You think it's, you know, within just the church culture, but or
29:59
just in the world culture, but also it's, it's within the
30:01
church culture. And so it's one of those things
30:03
that's I think we would have all been healthier off if from the
30:07
get go, it was sin is sin. It doesn't matter who you're
30:12
into, what gender you are. But like, this is what we're
30:16
called to do as God's people and what he desires for us.
30:21
Yeah, I think this is an important conversation to be had
30:25
within the church, not just here on the podcast.
30:28
And so I was going to say I'm glad that in general that you've
30:32
decided to you've decided slash God has put it on your heart to
30:35
do this series because when you told me about it, I was like.
30:40
Good luck. It's like, yeah, I'm definitely
30:44
not preaching at that one. And then here I am this coming
30:48
Sunday. Yeah.
30:50
I think it's something that any church that strays away from the
30:53
topics out of comfortability from the pulpit or from the Pew,
30:59
comfortability, that it's doing a disservice to Scripture, which
31:02
is then a disservice to the church.
31:04
Yeah, because if we can't talk about the real things of life
31:08
and how our following Jesus intersects and impacts those
31:14
things, what are we doing? Yeah.
31:17
What are we doing? You know, I'm not here to just
31:20
play church, but it's like, you know, one of our our former
31:24
pastors, it was apartment to say, you know, going to church
31:29
on Sunday morning doesn't make you a Christian any more than
31:33
going to Dunkin' Donuts makes you a doughnut.
31:36
You look a lot more like a doughnut after going to Dunkin'
31:39
Donuts a lot. And you look a little more like
31:42
Jesus, hopefully. Yeah, but listen, I'm not
31:46
looking for a little more like Jesus.
31:48
No, I know, and it's much more guaranteed the Dunkin' Donuts
31:52
option to look more like a donut, Yes.
31:54
Yes, but if our goal is to be like Jesus, become like Jesus,
31:59
and to live the life that Jesus lived, but that means
32:02
everything. And so as uncomfortable as it's
32:07
been for me to prepare some of these sermons, to preach some of
32:10
these sermons, there's still more to come.
32:13
We keep mentioning that we're not done yet, but if it doesn't
32:16
touch every area of our lives, I think we have to ask the
32:20
question of is it really touching our lives at all?
32:25
Well, that's our conversation for today, but that doesn't mean
32:27
the conversation is over. We'd love to hear your thoughts
32:30
on these topics as well. To ask a question about anything
32:33
we've discussed in this episode or to join the conversation, you
32:37
can head over to fumccollingswood.org/podcast.
32:42
Thanks for being part of this conversation.