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From Nurse To Supply Chain Leader · Taking The Supply Chain Pulse

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Taking with Supply Chain Hall.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan with Cena Company, and we're glad you're with us.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, Fred sit down with a longtime friend and colleague, Gail Kovacs, to discuss her remarkable career journey from biology to nursing into healthcare supply chain leadership and ultimately for hospital administration in the Cleveland market.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Gail shares the experiences, lessons learned, and leadership insights that shaped her path while offering encouragement and inspiration for the next generation of women aspiring to leadership roles in healthcare.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now here's your host, Brad Franz.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're going to talk to a longtime friend and colleague of mine, Gail Kovacs, who uh migrated from a nurse a background of biology and then nursing and supply chain, which was then called materials management, uh into administration in uh in the Cleveland market.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um I would say that uh she was probably one of the very first uh women that I've known that uh made it to that level of accomplishment.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd like to have Gail here today to just uh sort of share her story with us.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, Gail, thank you so much for uh joining us.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for asking me, but it's quite an honor.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't go that far, but but uh Gail is also a what 2024 inductee into the Bellwether League.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: That is correct.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we're happy to have you here, Gail.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, I saw in some of your background information that one thing that you and I both share in common is that we both come from working class backgrounds.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my my parents were both factory workers.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: They worked at a um factory in Bath, New York, a Westinghouse plant that made vacuum tubes.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: So you know that after the mid-60s, they didn't have a job anymore because transistors came along.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us a little bit about your background and then uh your education, how you got started in healthcare.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just sort of go through the various stages.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, as you said, um my parents were you know blue-collar factory workers.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: They both started out of the old TAPCO, that's where they met, which became um TRW years later.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um my dad um worked on uh uh engine parts for airlines.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow he worked third shift or second shift most of my life, so I didn't see him that often because of the times.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: But um what I got from my parents, and neither one of them finished high school.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: That was to me the astounding thing.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: They managed without it.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um my dad took his GED test over the kitchen table for me when I was studying in college, so we both graduated about the same time, but um they were hard workers.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um they, you know, did what they needed to do.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, raised myself and my sister, um were committed to having me go through school.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: They felt that was very important.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had eight years of Catholic girl school, which I think was pretty influential because at Network High School and College, um, in that environment, you're not competing with males.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you have just got females, and the nuns teach you to be very responsible for yourselves and to manage your own destiny.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, one thing about being retired, as you can probably imagine, is you can have an opportunity to be very reflective about what happened in your past life.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And as you think through some of these influences, it really does color, you know, things for you.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and also in high school, um choices at that point for women, and I'm you know, I'm feeling a little bit like a dinosaur here because we saw a lot of change in our lifetime.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: But the choices then for women were nursing, teaching, and secretarial.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And not much more than that.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: But um, if you have an advocate, if you have someone that believes in your abilities, even at high school and college level, they can put you on a path.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I found that I was in love with sciences because it was an opportunity to investigate and solve a problem.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that's sort of where my uh career point started in embracing biology.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where did where where did you go to where did you uh go to school, college?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I went to college at Ursulin College in Cleveland, which is now part of recently part of Gannon University.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um they like some other private colleges have had some challenges and they've had to create new alliances.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um my grad high school graduating class was 81, um, and my college graduating class I think was 120.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, see, we have a lot of similarities.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: My group my uh high school graduating class was um 102.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: We were the first class to get over 100 people, so I came from a small town background.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So um so uh you you after you graduated from college, what was your first job?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my first job, actually, to step back a little bit was when I was in college in the summers between.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I decided that I wanted to try and get some experience and I wanted to work in a in a lab.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I um went to the guidance counselor out of the blue and said, Do you know how to do this?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, I've got a business card from somebody, but I don't know how I got it, so call this guy.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I did call him, um, and his name was Dr.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Irvin Kushner.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: He um agreed to see me and he talked to me a little bit about what I was doing in school, and he had a position that he could give me for a lab assistant for the summers.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um he apologized and said it could only make a hundred dollar fifty an hour, and I didn't tell him at the time, but I was making 85 cents as a as a waitress, and that was a great increase.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So um I had the pleasure of working for him for three summers.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we worked on C-reactive protein, which was not very well researched at the time.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: There were only about four or five people in the world that published or published on that at that point.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but he was um a great individual to work for.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, when I graduated from college, uh his grant didn't get renewed, so I had to go elsewhere.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: So where did you go elsewhere to?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: I went elsewhere to uh the Cleveland Clinic.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this was a little bit, you know, I guess um on the edge for me uh because when I was graduating, which was 71 from college, um we had four people in our class that had jobs when they were leaving school.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was a very tight market.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had heard the name of this physician at Case Western and from Dr.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Kushner.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I had never met him, never talked to him.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I picked up the phone and called Case Western, asked to speak to him, and I told him what I was doing and I needed a job.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Did he know anybody?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, why don't you call this guy at the clinic?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I hung up the phone, called Dr.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Diodar at the clinic in immunology, and he talked to me a little on the phone.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Come on in, I'll talk to you.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he didn't even have a position open at the time, but he knew that there was a check that was leaving because she was getting married.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um he hired me into that job.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a little bit um off the schedule for the clinic because they always looked for people that had been lab certified, and I was only I had a bachelor's degree, but no certification, but he was good with that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um I was there for a year, and then I went back to work for Dr.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Kushner when I got his grant renewed.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: So let let's stop right here.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's some tremendous uh similarities here in some ways.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: You graduated in 1971 because I had flunked out of college uh previously.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: I graduated from the University of Miama in 1972.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um you had uh been introduced to healthcare and uh and were ready to pursue something.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: I, when I graduated from uh University of Miami, was working as a nursing assistant at Baptist Hospital in Miami.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I know you've heard me say this before, but I've always I have said in public that there are six things that can guarantee you having an opportunity at success.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that is that you're tall, white, bright, male, heterosexual, and you know somebody.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I only thought I had five of those, but it turns out that I had a six because when I was working at Baptist uh as a nursing assistant, I was one of two male nursing assistants in the entire hospital, and I would always work whenever they wanted me to, wherever they wanted me to.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I was uh I was uh the golden boy of the nursing administration staff without even knowing it.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I had all six.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well you're short, uh number one.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Number two, you're a woman, and and you had the other four.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how did uh did you ever feel that you were up against the system as you were going forward?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: I never had to I had an easy path.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was I had all six, right?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about that.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um I never felt that I was up against the system.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was up against circumstances on occasion.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um the reason I when Dr.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Krishner called me back and study as grant renewedness tech was leaving.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, although I really, really loved working at the clinic and I love that lab, and Dr.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Didar was phenomenal.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I missed the research component because a lot of what we were doing was more laboratory diagnostics.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I took a pretty significant pay cut to go back to research.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then the turn of events was that Dr.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Krishnaven told me about six months later that he was going to run the medical school in West Virginia.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that meant I was out of a job again, and I came to the point of thinking that um being dependent on grants was not a good thing.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I took a turn there and decided um that I needed to do something where I could rely on my own.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that was when I got into nursing school.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was fortunate because I got full credit for my um college uh bachelor's degree um and only had to take several courses.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I got through the school in two years.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now nursing led me down a number of other paths, and I think that's where I ended up, but ultimately it um I was identified by the nursing supervisor as a possible candidate for position in infectious disease, and I got really excited about that.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um I was one of two people that they they had in that program, and it was truly a game changer.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um that led me to other things further down the road, but I never really felt like I was fighting a system as much as I was fighting a circumstance.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: But there's another another similarity.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: How many how many years did you work in uh patient and caregiving?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Directly in caregiving as a hands-on nurse, too.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um later in my life, I um was given the opportunity to become the vice president for nursing in a community hospital, and I had two years in that position.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you did have two years of uh of caregiving.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's another parallel between you and me.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I started out as a Navy corpsman, I had four years of uh experience there, and then while I was going to the University of Miami, I had three years of uh hands-on day-to-day caregiving as a nursing uh assistant.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: How how did that caregiving background sort of shape your your worldview or your view of uh of your your mission in healthcare?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Did it have an impact on you?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it can't not have an impact on you.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're in your your patient's personal space.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that one of the things that people that are not in that position um can't really understand is the complexity of each patient and what they're going through, um, the family dynamics that might be at play, um, the challenges that are in front of you as far as maintaining that patient's care and safety.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're that direct caregiver, and if something starts to, you know, change in their um physical status and needs attention, you've got to be positioned to take that forward and be their advocate.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it really does change your perspective and it personalizes the information for you.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and as as you went into uh as you began to transition, tell us how you got introduced to what eventually would become supply chain.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, supply chain.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, um, as I said, I loved my position in infectious disease, and I probably would have never left that, but there was a budget cut, and I was the junior of the two positions, so my position was eliminated.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so I started looking for something else, and um it so happened that I had applied to a blind ad in the paper for a position.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I got a call from this vice president from um community or a uh university hospital in Cleveland, and he started telling me about this job, and um I had sort of made my decision to go a different direction, but he wheeled me in.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I went in for the interview, and um the gentleman that was hiring for the position was retired military logistics, and he said basically that they were in the process of you know doing some additional planning for what was then called supply chain uh services, and uh he was at the core of it.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: He needed someone that spoke clinical.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was his point because there were a lot of meetings that were going on where he was trying to introduce agendas and he was up, you know, having discussions with vice presidents for nursing and chiefs of departments, and he didn't have the clinical background.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I became his stand-in, and that was where I got my exposure as well as my support.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you probably got accepted as a colleague as opposed to uh an outsider that don't know what we're doing, you know, as it as it goes.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think that's that's true because when you can at least speak some of the dialogue and demonstrate an understanding for what their concerns are um and what their cautions are in trying to make a change, you know, change a supply item, you know, get a contract, whatever the case may be, um that really makes a difference.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you made the worst mistake of all is uh you did a wonderful job.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: So they they they kept uh they kept uh kicking you upwards.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well I had endurance anyways.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that boss that hired me eventually retired.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um there was there was another boss that came in uh for a period of time, and he was phenomenal.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there were a lot of changes going on in administration, and um the university at that time was going to a different management structure, and um, it was becoming a little more business-like in the administrative channels.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So they started changing titles and adding positions, and I had the opportunity to interview for uh was called the assistant general manager of medical surgical, which was one of the biggest divisions there, and um was surprisingly selected from a number of candidates.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And my boss obviously felt that my clinical background put me in a position to take over some of the clinical departments for him, and as well as working on those issues.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's how I entered that arena.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And um what who were your mentors along the way?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the boss that I hired that hired me for sure, um, and I you know I will reflect back to a lot of people that helped me make decisions along the way, but um I think that um once I was in administration with his you know blessing, um the medical chiefs that I worked with, for the departments that I had to run, the nursing structure that we had, um, all gave me the opportunity to make um statements and decisions and support their positions in getting changes made.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it all just sort of fell together.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: But were there any individuals that uh that uh you would name that that sort of did things that stuck out in your in your memory that you can uh go back on as these were these were key things or key uh pieces of advice?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um are you talking just about university or anywhere, anywhere in your career.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if I have to think way back um in high school, I walked into physics class one day and the nun had a laryngitis, and she said, You need to teach the class for me for two days.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was totally unprepared.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, okay.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was I was flattered but scared, but uh I managed to do it, and I guess I did it okay.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um another nun that I had from grade school, I was telling her at one point I was thinking about teaching, and she said, I wouldn't do that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I said, You you're teaching.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: She said, I took a vow, you didn't.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, go find something else that more suits your skill set.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it made me rethink things.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, certainly the physician that hired me in the lab was one of my key influencers, and I'm still in touch with him to this day.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: He has been phenomenal.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have great respect, and he certainly set my career path on the one that that led me to where I am.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Dr.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Mostell, who hired me in infectious disease, was phenomenal.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: He was a great teacher and just very um incredible.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um Bill Snyder, who hired me in materials at university, was the one that said he needed a nurse, and that was certainly a pivotal position.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um the uh senior vice president in med surge, uh Rick Stanko, was the one that put me in administration for the first time.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then past that, um I ended up with several other positions that were within Meridia and UH.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the more influential people was Frank Lordeman, who hired me for my first position there.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Frank was uh he was an entrepreneur, he was a visionary, he was a no-nonsense sort of guy, and he gave me some very critical lessons to learn.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: So um I have a lot to be grateful to for him.
• 18:56
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• 19:01
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• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us about being the director of materials management at UH.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was um pretty sparse as far as technology goes.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um this, you know, sort of predates cell phones.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we had electric typewriters that didn't even have correction ribbons back then.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's hard to imagine so much change in our lifetime.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: But um we had a power-level uh system, and uh we revised that and changed it, and that was an elemental thing uh as far as how frequently it was being operated and what kind of uh schedule they were on.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we worked through um a clinical supply committee, OR committees to get changes made, and um a lot of things you know transpired there.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was the days, if you remember this, Fred, um, before uh when everything was cost plus.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So reimbursement was not on a DRG system.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um when we did a budget, we could justify it on we need it because it's going to help quality and patient care.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you added a number to it, and it pretty much went through.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that all changed when we got to cost plus environment and DRGs.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um that was a big change, and that tightened up the budget and had us had to make more uh strategic and quantifiable decisions, um, which added to the expertise that I think everybody had.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think uh just for those for folks out there, and that's probably most of the people listening to this, that are too young to know this, prior to 1984, when they passed the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, TEFRA, um health care had been reimbursed by the federal government on a cost plus basis.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we would submit our costs, and then the government would pay us back in uh those costs plus a certain margin.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And every year, um when I was running supply chains in Miami and uh and Canton, um, I would go, how much do we need to increase our charges this year?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't we didn't care too much about expenses, we just would increase our charges.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then when the uh TEFRA came in, it uh it employed the the uh diagnosis related groupings, DRGs, and found out what the average cost to treat a diagnosis was, and that's what the organization got paid.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And if you could treat it for less you'd make money, and if you could treat it for more, you'd lose money.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was the singular most important thing that's happened in my career to change the way uh uh uh what now is called supply chain became more important to operations and to change the way we went from opinion-based uh decision making to evidence-based decision making.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's when when we started to actually become uh something that did more than just fulfill purchase orders and get stuff to the user before we got yelled at, to somebody that was actually uh bringing value to the organization.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Would you agree with that?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that as you you mentioned, evidence-based uh versus opinion-based, that was probably one of the areas that initially was experiencing some friction because now you had folks in the materials function and contracting and so on who were basically trying to gear some of the clinicians to pick products that were uh less expensive to keep the cost down so that there was a margin to be had.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: But those choices and those um the source of the that discussion was often generated by the non-clinical people.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so getting physicians involved and getting nurses involved and having them be on committees that could evaluate, and we did evaluations before you put things in.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, this was back, you know, a long time ago in the 80s, and it was not as refined as it is now, and but we didn't have the tools that that we needed then.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: But we still had to present it in a way that you could logically look at it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think once they felt and understood that they were going to be included and not ignored, that changed the dynamic.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think your advantage that you had was you had clinical credibility, you had administrative credibility, and you were able to you were able to become a collaborator with folks that uh people like me um who did not have, you know, the the high level clinical background that you had and that kind of credibility would find more adversarial.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that uh I remember I think you and I met when I was at Meridia, when I was at Meridia Health System, I think that was probably when we first met.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you were highly respected.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: There was no there was no question about who Gail Kovacs was.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And there was no question about your credibility.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I think that if there was any advantage that you had from not being tall and male, it was uh it was that you had built true credibility because of your performance as a person.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and I I think that the the question that I would ask you because of that is um two questions.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, why would anyone want to get in healthcare uh for a long-term career when there ain't no money in it and uh and it uh you can't become famous in it?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh number two, what if that person that wanted to to get in that healthcare industry were a woman?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what what advice what was your opinion on why people would want to get in, and what advice would you give to a young woman starting out today?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well let's tell us tackle those one at a time.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, why healthcare?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't I can't speak for anybody else uh as far as what their their inclination is.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it was the science that took drew me in because of the biology and you know just needing to be in healthcare and then getting into nursing.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a natural sensitivity that comes with that, that um leads you into an area that has a lot of healthcare involved with it, you know, whether it's a clinic or it's a hospital or whatever.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's a sensitivity that comes with it.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um an acclimation, I guess.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do recall that there was one time where um at university, when I was newly there, I was walking around with someone uh who was a division unit manager, and she was just sharing with me her experiences there and uh and she was very well regarded, she was very soft poking in person.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she sent me, she said, you know, the one thing I've learned working here is it takes a lot of humble.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I never forgot that because I thought she was pretty well regarded, and you know, there were a lot of big, big egos in place in a number of positions, so it spoke to the issue about how you present yourself and how people interact with you and how you what what other personalities you might find.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have that inkling and you're not terribly brassy, um it probably helps a lot.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um the second question about being woman, I again university was sort of like the the focal point for a lot of my career changes.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've shared this story with you, Fred, when I first got into the administrative hallway at UH, and um I think I was the first woman that was ever in an office on that hallway.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And a nurse came up to me one day out of the blue, I didn't know her, and she said, I just have to ask you, what is it like to work with all men?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I stood there dumbfounded because I had to think on that.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Um, I don't really know how to answer that because I've always worked with men.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's never really been an issue for me.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then she got a little dumbfounded, but I think that um people are people, and whether they're male or female, there's certain characteristics that and and qualities that you need to pay attention to and uh personality traits.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, dialogue, listening, um, being on top of your, you know, uh your job.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I first took the job with um Radio Health Ventures, it was a for-profit environment.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um my boss told me, he said, I'm taking a chance on you.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you can do this job.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've never hired anybody with your characteristics, but I think you can.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm giving you six months.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't make it, you're out.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, well, that's pretty honest.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I had some pretty big projects to take care of, and two of them uh had the potential for going off rails, but we got them both approved.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the one thing that I learned in that job is you cannot afford to make a mistake.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And he also said to me at one point, he said, you have to understand when you're sitting in front of a board of trustees giving a presentation and asking them to fund it, you can't have any errors because if you lose your credibility one time, you will never get it back.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a piece of advice that I carried with me all my life.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes it makes you a little crazy, but uh uh it it does hold true.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to be on top of your game.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Gail, you uh I I met you when I was at Meridia when I was running the supply chain there, and you were on top of your game then, and you've been on top of your game ever since I've known you.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: I remember uh when the induction ceremony at at the Bellwether League, I was so happy that you got uh inducted.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: But number two, afterwards when we had a reception, it was so great to see all the the young women leaders out there.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we did this industry is now uh fraught with, I don't want to say fraught, it is it is filled with uh with women leaders more and more.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I like the way they gathered around you afterwards and shared, you shared your story with them.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to thank you for uh having been who you are for all these years and more so for being my friend.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's been great having you on here, and uh and I thank you for joining our discussion.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Fred.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, everyone that I have met along the way, yourself included, and uh, one person I didn't mention was my first engagement with the old Healthcare Materials Management Society.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Dick Perrin got me involved with some board activities.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anybody who gives you an opportunity and puts faith in your abilities at least deserves the sincere consideration for trying to make that as successful as possible.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if it hadn't been for those people being open and willing, um we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, sometimes it's it's a blessing.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And your your comment about uh the folks that were the younger ones that were at the um bellwether event, um as I said at that that presentation, we didn't have the tools that they have now.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And they're so far ahead of us as far as their capabilities and their ability to um cut and dice data and look at it, analyze it, and have it be instantaneous.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um somebody had mentioned a handheld.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't even have handhelds, we didn't have cell phones back then.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: It seems almost impossible that we got anything done with just paper supplies, but you know, things migrate over time, and as fast and as much change as we've seen in our lifetime, these younger folks are gonna see even more because things are just accelerating, you know, at an incredible rate.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: So hats off to all of them.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: They've got to carry the charge.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we have great faith in their abilities because they are brighter and smarter and have a lot to carry them forward, in addition to the enthusiasm.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Gail, thanks so much for being with us.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's been great talking to you.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I hope to see you soon.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thanks, Fred.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Same here.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's all for today.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining us.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to hit that subscribe button and connect with us online so you'll never miss an episode and can catch up on all the ones you might have missed.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Got a topic you're fired up about, or maybe you want to be a guest on the show?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Fred would love to hear from you.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Just reach out at F C R A N S at S T O N G E dot com.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time!