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Cat Margulis : Again, Only More Like You · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is story to count the genjumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. And my hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft, them as a person, and you'll become like me, fiercely loyal, want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them not only as the incredible storytellers, but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. So I'm super excited because my guest today is Kat Margulis. She is multifaceted and an incredibly talented human being. She's a Toronto based author, speaker and narrative strategist, which she does to help others ditch the stories that no longer fit so they can create what comes next. We all need a little Kat in our lives. Kat years telling stories for publications like Elle Canada. Globe and Mail and Today's Parent and helping brands like Walmart and Fairmont do the same. She says that words have always been my way through and my way forward. For years as a magazine editor, and content strategist chasing titles, hitting milestones, and playing by the rules. Until one day she gained clarity by realizing she was more than just the titles and ready for a new adventure. Kat helps people find the power in their own stories, whether that means writing the book they've always been circling for years, stepping onto a bigger stage or navigating a life that no longer follows the script. And not only does Kat talk the talk, but she walks the walk and published again, Only More Like You, her debut novel, which we're going to talk about today. She is a big believer in story, not just the book she published, but in the story we tell ourselves and how it shapes our view of the world. On top of being a writer, speaker, and narrative strategist, is also a mom of four and understands what it's like to build something meaningful in the middle of a full, messy, and a complicated life. And I can't help repeating her advice. If you're standing at the edge of something, you know you're not alone. You're just in the middle of a story that is still unfolding. Kat, I'm so excited to talk to you about your story and the unfolding with your debut novel, again, Only More Like You. Cat Margulis: Jen, thank you so much. I'm gonna cry. I've got goosebumps. That was a beautiful intro. Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: Well, are incredibly talented. again, More Like You is your debut novel. So first of all, congratulations on that. think at one point all of us have said, I'd love to write a book. I think I should write a book. I'm going to write a book. You followed through and you did it. Can you introduce everybody to Again, Only More Like You? Cat Margulis: Yeah, yeah. Again, Only More Like You is about best friends and their lives have taken them in completely different directions. One is a mom with many children, career working mom, and the other one is her best friend, Allie, who living the life of romance and adventure. And they their lives falling apart. at the same time just as they're approaching their 40th birthday. ⁓ a story about friendship and friends that ⁓ grown apart over time and losing yourself and finding yourself and finding each other again through all of that. Jennifer Jumba: It's a wonderful story. I these two characters, Carmen and Ali, are terrific. I think it's something we can all relate to. I think about us all growing up that we're with everybody in the same class, in school growing up, in the same neighborhood, same physical proximity. And then we go to college, and then we're with another group of people in close proximity. And then after college, it's almost like a diaspora. People just move, and people are ⁓ separated from one another and not that same close bond of just being able to walk across the hall or go down the street to catch up with friends. so it is challenging to maintain friendships and they're, across the country, from one another at times. And so I think a very, very relatable story. And you talk about the theme of friendship coming up. And you also talk about the fact that they both have very different careers. Well, Allie a marine biologist. which is super cool. ⁓ is running this magazine. She's the big magazine editor for the top circulating magazine, at the pinnacle of her career. And at the same time, there's themes that emerge. I think they both find themselves trying to figure out what defines them. Will you talk a little bit about how that influenced your story with your own experience? Cat Margulis: Absolutely. There's just so much there. Yeah, you know, it's interesting my eldest son is graduating high school this year and he's going to college and university and for a while now everybody's asking him, what do you want to be when you grow up? Like, what are you going to do and what are you committed to? And it's ⁓ because we that decision so young. with whatever tools and self-awareness that we have in that moment. And we build a life around that. And then you do that for about 10 or 20 years. then you, my question, you know, which is the question that I, I'm like, that I came up against, which is like, can I do this for another 20 or 30 or 40 years that I might have in me? Can I change my mind? Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Cat Margulis: But at that point the stakes are so high and that's why I love writing about midlife women and people in midlife is because the stakes are so high. It's not footloose and fancy free. Even for Ali who is, you know, maybe the workspace isn't so challenging, but you know what I experienced in my life with a lot of my friends and the women that I know was reaching 40 and that Prince Charming hasn't arrived yet and the biological clock is ticking and the question of can I do this? Can I do this alone? Do I want motherhood so bad that I'd be willing to make whatever compromises that might require and how much longer do I hold out for that guy, for the one? so of whether you're a working mom and dealing with the work-life balance ⁓ single wondering if you were going to have that you know, happy ending. found ourselves in this similar point of, okay, got some calls to make some really life-changing decisions. And, and where I begin? Jennifer Jumba: a great question and I can relate because ⁓ spent nearly years in sales and marketing before I switched careers to become a librarian. So I can remember thinking like, this something I really want to do? And I have a cool library origin story for another time, but I remember there and thinking like, ⁓ this isn't I want to do. What do I want to do? ⁓ once you identify that, then it's moving in that direction. And it's not easy for people to change careers. Otherwise, I think more people would do it and not be so unhappy or frustrated or resentful. it's easier to do all that extra work, you know, to go back to grad school when you know it's what you want to do. Because when I was 18, 19 years old, did I know what I wanted to do? No. and life experience kind of informs those things. ⁓ So I think it's so great that you capture a new show to women who are that point where they're wanting to decide, what do I do next? And that sense of agency to follow that through. Cat Margulis: Yes, yeah, it's a ⁓ fascinating, fascinating time. And, and, and yeah, I think it's, you know, a quiet story in a way, because it's such a, it's the biggest stories are existential dilemmas. Right? That's like the most important we can ever confront. And yet, know, as a novel, it's, a quieter story, but I think it's an important one. And I really needed it. I really needed this book when I was at that time in my life. And I couldn't find it. you know, as the saying goes, you know, if there's a book that you want to read and you haven't found it yet, you get to be the one to want to write it. that's what I did. Jennifer Jumba: Well, thank goodness you wrote it and you wrote it in a way that's not, here's another nonfiction by step, how to completely change your life. It's through relatable experience. And I think most us can relate to that. even if, we're not married with several kids, we have friends who are, and there's never that pause. There's never that sense of, okay, I can just put this on hold right now and I can focus on this. You're trying to do that. big dilemma and still make sure kids have, field trip, permission slips signed and lunches are packed and you're showing up and nailing a presentation at work and your laundry's done and all of that So I think, I think it's a great thing for people to read, not only because it's a wonderful story, but also you can see yourself in the book and people read, you know, this for, for lots of reasons. They read to escape, they read to learn. ⁓ You they read to see themselves and you said it the is that you don't want people to feel alone. ⁓ And what you've done with the stories is a tremendous gift to people, to readers. Cat Margulis: Thank you. And that's means a lot to me, Jen, because that's honestly, that's what I hope. I hope there are readers that want that because that's what I wanted to give them. I wanted them to see themselves, to ⁓ honored and loved and celebrated and to feel like they're in it with other people. Cause people kind of keep these things close to their chest. Right? So your friends and it's something I even touch on a little bit on the book. You, we don't know half the things that are dearest. ⁓ friends are going through. so to be able to at least, you know, befriend these two women and it's totally transparent everything that they're going through and thinking, you know, that's what I wanted to give to readers ⁓ in world of escapism and romanticism, I'm just like, I hope there's an audience. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, there is. and it makes me think about the question is, is it because we're so busy? Is it because we're, kind of conditioned to think that, you we can have it all and that, nobody says like, ⁓ I'm not busy. Nobody says, I'm sitting on my sofa and I'm binging Netflix while I'm folding laundry. Nobody ever says that, right? ⁓ It's, I'm so busy. I've got this project and project. And when you don't know some of your best friends, it kind of begs the question, like, do we need to slow down? How do we slow down? What questions do we ask? And that shows up a lot the book of Ali Carmen trying to have conversations. And they're just very fractured and short. And hard. ⁓ Cat Margulis: Yeah, it is so hard. It very, very hard. ⁓ hardest with the people that are closest to us. I one of things I struggled with with this book, which was cathartic in healing for me, but was brought to my attention was ⁓ how the can be. And that was important. me because I think, you know, people who are closest to us, who know us the most, can hurt us the most. They can weaponize some of the things that they know about us in a moment. Not that they would do that all the time, but when need to or when they feel triggered or when they feel hurt, they can hurt us the most. So I don't know if that's some like self-protective thing. But also, it's really fascinating thing. it is that, just even my friends and the women that I know that I'm trying to understand them better and they unfold for me and they have been unfolding and slowly opening up. And a lot of that stuff was the conversations that we were having as we were stepping into a more authentic. space together. And it's ⁓ it's a, you know, kind of like a Renee Brown, you know, marbles the jar. It's like, can I trust you with this? Can I, I trust you with this? And that takes lot intention and a lot of care ⁓ and lot of deep and not all our friendships and relationships are there. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. ⁓ Right. And okay. I'm a huge fan of Brene Brown. So absolutely. Am adding to your jar of marbles or am I pretty much dumping them on the ground, right? And I about it and ⁓ initially when read the book and Carmen's incredibly busy with this high powered job, which she loses and we know that early on in the book. So that is not a spoiler. And she's got ⁓ three kids. Cat Margulis: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: She's pregnant, she's got another one. And Allie kind of feels left out because Carmen can't ever really talk to her for long periods of time and she's going through tough stuff and feels like Carmen is not there. And then I started to think about it from Carmen's perspective and how sad she must feel that she can't there or give her friends the time that they need, because kids little and not quite self-sufficient grownups. it's a challenge. so being able to see it from both perspectives in this book, I think is really helpful. And I appreciate the fact that you talked about the group of friends that you have and kind of stepping into being more authentic. I think about, Brene Brown and when things are tough, you you ⁓ want to armor up, and not somebody the stuff that's really close to you. And how isolating that feels. And at the same time, the some of the friends you tell that stuff to and they don't add that marble to your jar. It's tough too. whole like sense of belonging that is just so important in lives. mean, we're human beings, we're designed to be connected to one another. Cat Margulis: yeah. Yeah, it is so fascinating. yeah, it was a really cool experience because Ali was... you know, a composite. I feel like both of them, although, you know, the outside I look the most like Carmen, she looks the most like me, but they were really composite characters of, ⁓ know, all the moms that I know and all the single friends that I have and the questions I had about my own life and my own trajectory, but also the questions I had for the friends are living very different lives from me. ⁓ And, you know, it started with a question. It's just like, why does she always pick the jerk? Like, how come I can see all the red flags and she's going for it again? And it was that question. And the only way I could authentically tell that story was to really become her and live her and find the parts of myself that up with her. through grew a lot of compassion and understanding and really listening to those women and hearing what they were struggling with and how they feel when they're with their friends. Yeah, it was like so cool. It was a really great, great experience. Jennifer Jumba: It's so multi-layered and so nuanced. How we act with some people is different than how we act with others. And there were moments where I truly, and I think most readers will agree that they wanted to shake Ali. Like, you're so smart, you're so bright, you're so talented. But I guess the great thing about you all as writers is that you allow us to see inside a character's thought process. it helps to understand a little bit about why they're doing what they're doing, which doesn't necessarily always help with our friends in real life. we find ourselves going, what are you thinking? But we don't ever really ask that. ⁓ Cat Margulis: Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, it was so fascinating. And other thing that was really funny was that... you know, I found myself, thing that kind of inspired it was like, you know, when I would get together with my girlfriends and they were talking about the guys that were letting them down. And I was talking about my bosses, my bad bosses, horrible bosses, you know, and the work was like, you, we both have bad boyfriends. You what I mean? Like you talk him the way I talk about. And so we are both on some kind of personal development life journey where we have some stuff to work out. And I actually, Jennifer Jumba: Great. Cat Margulis: even though circumstantial it looks very different, deep down inside of us, the parts that we get to heal are actually more like, or more like not. Jennifer Jumba: Right, I think that's the great thing if we take the time to slow down a little bit. The other thing that you brought up in this book is dating this guy named Sam. And Sam kind of is that like super good suave, kind of knows all the in places to go. And for him, about being seen and being noticed. And I just think how that adds another layer to the relationships that we have in life. And then I guess the question is, does social media play a role in all of that? How carefully we curate our feeds to reflect something that is probably not quite the same experience that's being posted. Cat Margulis: I have been shocked again, like when I had some really, I was going through personal development after had already sketched out this book, but through the revisions, I was doing a lot of personal development and I just, mind was blown some people that I know that had such perfect feeds. And then to find out. ⁓ that wasn't true and you're my friend and how come I don't know this about you? You know what I mean? even today, mean, there's little glimpses, little shares, by little as we evolve, as our relationships and friendships evolve and we grow up and grow older. Yes, appearances, we never know happening behind the doors in the neighborhood and you never really know other people are dealing with. Jennifer Jumba: So true. like how you refer to it as, as personal development, right? Is this growth that you're experiencing. And I guess the question is, what is it that made you ⁓ want to versus just the acceptance of this is just how it is. some people will just continue to do the same thing. And then you're an individual, this fantastic human being that decides, this is personal development and I'm going to learn from this experience. Cat Margulis: Definitely a striver. I definitely have all that hunger to prove myself and to... It used to be to prove myself to be successful and now it's a different driver. that's always pushing me forward to uncomfortable places. Even prior to personal just like getting a job that's like really scary, but like just having this compulsion to do the thing that is scary and dangerous and risky. And I don't know where that ⁓ comes Yeah, a little bit of that, right? I'm also pretty when I get something in my head like you. Jennifer Jumba: It's a little bear double. Cat Margulis: ⁓ I'm doing this and nothing is going to stop me. And so it was only after I'd been fired and restructured ⁓ laid off enough times and like, maybe time for me to do a wholesale pivot here. And then I went into entrepreneurship, which was perfect for me. And as my husband would say, he's like, nobody in your family can work for anybody. ⁓ So like was definitely where I belonged. Jennifer Jumba: You Cat Margulis: I got into personal development because I had a business coach first. I a business coach to help me with my business and then the business coach ⁓ recommended this development program. So it was really just to get better at my business and fix quote whatever was in my way or whatever was stopping me from being in doing and having what I wanted. And then once I got into there was a bunch of other things that, you know, again, that it supported me with, I knew I wanted to move forward with this book, I knew I wanted to publish it, and I knew that was going to cause, require me to be more public facing. And I was like super shy. I was like really, really, you know, I never wanted to be the magazine editor. I wanted to be the right-hand woman. You know, I did not want to be in the spotlight. I'm a writer. We are by nature, think a little bit more introverted, a little bit more behind the scenes. Yes, right, right? Like we like to kind of, exactly. And so it was wonderful for helping me, know, step out and feel safe. I think that's really what it was, was to feel safe enough that nobody could hurt me, you know, that I was more resilient. Jennifer Jumba: Just like librarians. Yeah, librarians tend to be a little bit more introverted. Cat Margulis: than whatever feedback might come from being disposed. Jennifer Jumba: that's awesome. I think all of us have that little self-doubt and it's you know what can you do to kind of quiet that and to take that risk and to feel safe. So tells me that you have good people around you that support you and encourage you. So I think that's incredibly important. I'm just I'm just impressed and I also think you know it comes up in this book there's a line in which I've always kind of talked about there's a difference between running from ⁓ Cat Margulis: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: versus moving towards. you're big as this narrative strategist the stories people want to as well as the stories we tell ourselves. if you flip it, it's a lot more empowering to be moving towards something than running from, because it's kind of like wherever you go, there you are. ⁓ So you haven't anything you're just constantly running. ⁓ Cat Margulis: Yes. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, I really love chasing dream or challenge or overcoming something. know, Michael he's a screenwriting coach. And I got to interview him years ago about storytelling and he would say that all stories are really about overcoming fear. And I think that that's maybe ultimately what's underneath every goal of mine is to overcome some kind of fear. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Cat Margulis: and not let fear get in the way of my joy. Jennifer Jumba: And it's not easy. I mean, it's easy to say it's a whole other thing to practice it. So I applaud you for, for being that daredevil, to not let fear stop you ⁓ from, others to tell their story, from writing this debut, from your podcast, all the things that you've done. mean, not including being a mom to four kids. I mean, that's not an easy job either. And I'm struck by a line that Carmen says in your book that She knows now that even if she breaks something, even if things fall apart, she can put them back together again. I want that like a cross-stitch sampler, somewhere, I just, think that's I think we have to know we're of more and trust the process a little bit. It's not always easy because that self-doubt creeps in and then depending on who you're surrounding yourself with, the messages and the... Cat Margulis: you. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: feedback or the, in my opinion, comes at us, it's like, well, then you do it. You know, you try it. ⁓ yeah. it. Cat Margulis: Yeah. 100%. Thank you for that. Yeah, and that line actually came in so late. came to me so late and it was so perfect. It meant so much to me. And yeah, know, there's the voice inside of us that wants to keep us safe. wants to keep that little five-year-old safe. And there are the parents that want to keep us safe. My God, do I ever struggle as a parent to want to keep my kids safe? And they keep trying to tell me that they're more resilient than, you know, I'm giving them credit for. And friends that want to keep us safe. But there is that crabs in a bucket effect, right, which is also just bringing other people down and not holding them high that they are Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Right. Cat Margulis: resilient that like they might screw up, might fall, they might make a mistake and they will get back up again and we all will. We all do. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. I was talking to somebody recently about like a little hiccup I had and they just said, look, Jen, this is just a blip. It's no big deal. You have so much evidence if you look back to show that you're capable. And so I just thought that's a really interesting perspective because our minds tend to catastrophize, right? And it's like, ⁓ well, this happens. So now this is going to happen. And next thing you know, so many cycles later and it's like, wait a second, no, I know how to fix this. Like I know how to from it and do better. So I just think it's such an important lesson and I'm sure that that's, I'm hoping it's gonna hit a lot of people right here. I'm on a podcast so you can't see, but like right smack in your chest. Like if you know that, would you do more things? you take more risks? Cat Margulis: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: And I'm hoping, I'm curious to see all the people that read the book and then decide, okay, you know what? I too can pivot. I'm going to change, my career or I'm going to step back or I'm going to try this. Hoping it that shows people that it's possible. Cat Margulis: Yeah, I hope so. You know, I was so, ⁓ a podcast a long time ago and it was inspired by, I so fortunate to have a lot of cool people in my life and to meet a lot of cool people that were doing things that I would tell myself is not possible or not possible for me. And they somebody I would look to and I would be like, real to say. knock it off, Kat, you know, if she can do it, you can do it. Like she is, you could like reach out your hand and touch her. She is a human being. She had similar job as you. They come from similar backgrounds. Like excuses doesn't hold. So I was so fortunate to have them and I really wanted to share for other people if they didn't have that. And Jennifer Jumba: Right. Cat Margulis: but yeah, ⁓ and it's scary. I that I've sat with women I really love and care about when they were making life changes decisions when they were, ⁓ we're in midlife now, the stakes are so high. They're about this marriage doesn't really work for me anymore. And it's scary to hold somebody's hand. ⁓ And sometimes even I'm like, wow, did I? Did I lead them the right? Did I get them to jump off a cliff? I don't know, did we do the right thing together here? And, but ultimately I land at self actualization. And I think if there's a reason that we're here in this lifetime, in this life yes, to ⁓ love and to give love and to receive love, but also to ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: you Cat Margulis: And I think if there's a that we're here in this lifetime, in this life is yes, to ⁓ be love and to give love and to receive love, but also to ⁓ fully self-actualize that mean breaking relationships and that can mean quitting jobs and that's the we pay so that we can be as fully realized as can in the body and in the manifestation we are in this lifetime. fully self-actualize that mean breaking relationships and that can mean quitting jobs and that's the we pay so that we can be as fully realized as can in the body and in the manifestation we are in this lifetime. Jennifer Jumba: I mean, ⁓ you do with the time and the space and you do it with, I think is what makes up a life. And so I see it in playing out with these two characters, Carmen and Allie, who are terrific, each in own way. And then when they're together and I think about how they kind of question whether or not they can be more than their history or more than their past self, which I think is also something that sometimes stands in our way. Cat Margulis: % every day I When I'm awake when I'm paying attention every day is Is an opportunity to confront that? even this morning even this morning thinking this is what is in front of me and is what's available to me and then reminding myself that that is just in this moment But it doesn't mean that in the next moment more is not available and more is, you know what I mean? Like, you can only just see this like one step ahead of you, but that doesn't mean that everything changes after you take that step. Jennifer Jumba: Great. It reminds me of, what is it though? Is it the story of the horse and the boy, where they're going on a journey and it's like, just take the next step because he doesn't how he's going to find his way through. And we do things, rarely is it a huge giant leap, but there are times where just, you take the next step and the next step is normally doable and manageable. And then it's the next step after that. And before you know it, you have. whether you say achieved or realized or self-actualized that part of your life. So I think there's such wisdom in you say in terms of self-actualization. And if we just kind of slow down a little bit to listen to ourselves, it makes a difference. It makes a real difference. Cat Margulis: Yeah, yeah, and when you're living on the edge like that and taking the chances and really going for it. then you have no choice but to confront those things. But it's a wonderful opportunity to those limiting beliefs and past stories and histories and self-concepts, which are really an illusion ⁓ through illusion so that you can be this ⁓ magnificent soul you are. Jennifer Jumba: I think it's so important. And, I know I talked a little bit about being more than our history. I also think we have to look at the things that we have done to show us that we are capable of more. it's that little next step, little next step. And like you thought, oh, I would never, be able to do this, but okay. I think about people who decide one day they're going to run a marathon but incredible accomplishment. It's not something I'm able to do, but they don't just get up and run 26.2 miles. I mean, they start. And so think there's lessons. And I think about you as all the work that you do with people as the narrative strategist and how many people you're helping and coaching and the wisdom that you give them. Imagine it kind of shows up in your characters, Ellie Carmen. Cat Margulis: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm laughing because yesterday I didn't have time for a workout and I'm really committed to addressing the damage I've done over the winter, Canadian winter. I looked at the camera and I'm like, Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Cat Margulis: done. So I'm okay, I didn't have time to work out yesterday. So I'm like, okay, I've got like three minutes, I'm just gonna dance. And I didn't warm up. And I like pulled my calf muscle. It's so there's like, lot of wisdom and just like, warming up one step at a time. You cannot go from zero to hero in a flash, you'll pull something, you're gonna get hurt. And yeah, Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ no. Exactly. Cat Margulis: It's the other thing that's really interesting is that a lot of the people that I work with it's just scary to do anything brand new, you know, a lot of them are amazing and incredibly successful in whatever they did. But if they're a first time author, they're a first time author and it's terrifying. so yeah, doing anything new is scary and and and then You know, to your point, how you stack up this proof concept. ⁓ know, for a long time, early on, when I was like really taking some big chances for the very first time, right? Really stepping away from the script. I carried around those affirmations and I would write more down every day and it was just like, I had a baby and it's still alive. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. Cat Margulis: That really can't, you know? And this person said something really nice to me and I'm a good person and like I had all these things like literally written down and I would remind myself of them and to a certain extent probably my morning practice still is a reminder of what's working, you know, whatever affirmation, whatever reminders that I need is still very much part of my morning. just to set me up for the day and to build up the courage to, you know, get out of bed and go get it. Jennifer Jumba: what does that morning practice look like for you besides the ⁓ to start your day off and get out of bed? Cat Margulis: Mmm. Yeah, ⁓ man, it is evolving all the time. Right now it looks like, right now it's probably starting with the Bible app and then with prayer, which is really... You know, it's really a reflective time for me where I'm... am I grateful for? And so that's a reminder of everything that has worked, all times that I've felt supported, all the miracles, just knowing that I'm not alone in this and God's got my back and God cares. And I've overcome before and I can overcome them again. So I having that opportunity every morning to be in gratitude of everything I've been through and everything I've overcome. And then also confronting like, what am I afraid of? Like, what am I freaking out about today? And where do I need help? And where do I need kindness? ⁓ that in in one way or another. And then, depending how early the morning is, then I have like a little bit of vision, a little of flirting with the future. So I do like a vision board. ⁓ I play some music. Jennifer Jumba: I was going to ask. Cat Margulis: Yeah, I actually learned late that music or like sound is actually a part, an important part of that experience. So I added some music to that and I just kind of like, just kind of like thinking about what I want to happen and getting excited about that. Again, to give me energy to do the hard stuff that comes before that. So reminding why, what I want. why I want it, why it matters, and being so excited that more important than the scary part. I think those are two really key practices for me, always. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: sounds very thoughtful and intentional. And then it also kind of makes me think a little bit about kind of the hyper awareness ⁓ that if say something to you like, an orange car, because we're talking about it right now, you're going to leave and you're going to see like three of them on the road, but you might not have noticed them before. So the fact that you're leading with gratitude, and that is what your focus or your hyper aware of, I think is such a positive thing and then leads you into the, what it is that you're looking to do. Naming the fear, I think is probably the hardest thing, but it also is the thing that sucks that energy out of fear is once you name it. ⁓ And then I look at like, well, clearly working for you because look at all that you've accomplished with your business and your podcast and your book and think of all the people that you've Cat Margulis: to present. Jennifer Jumba: you've helped, overcome that fear because you've experienced it yourself. So that sense of doing something new is scary. It's a whole lot less scary when you're doing it with somebody else who's been who understands it, that you're not just like, some of the books, the self-help books you read. of course, like you made millions off of this. So it's really easy for you to just leave your job and no big deal and you're to leave and you're going to travel. Like not all of us have that Cat Margulis: Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: capacity yet, right? Cat Margulis: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's true. mean, I remember when I was again in personal development and I stepped into coaching and I remember just feeling like so inadequate. I'm like, I have not had enough training. I am not perfect. I have not built the business to the point that I should be giving anybody advice. And I just remember our trainer at the time. It's like, it's perfect. Like whoever is placed in front of you is the person that you can get to in a way nobody else can. And that was proved to me enough times that I realized, you know, my first book coaching clients, like I had not even published a book yet. And like coaching somebody to help them with their book. And it also perfect because I was able to go to places with them because of things that we had in common. just, yeah, you just knowing that We're here we all have an opportunity to contribute. I think a lot of people underestimate how much they contribute or what contribution looks like. more important, yeah, of course I want to create an experience and nurture as many people as I can with my book and I would love for it to be a bestseller or like whatever, but ⁓ yes, will happen, exactly. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. just manifest that it will be a best seller. Cat Margulis: But something is like, even with the authors that I support, I'm like, I just help one person and their book can help thousands and hundreds of thousands of people. ⁓ so it's not my contribution that's touching hundreds of thousands or millions of people, but I'm touching one person and that person is making a difference for so many people. So we all can contribute and... And we're all more powerful than we think in the ways that we relate to one another and our interactions with different people. And we can really make a difference for people. Jennifer Jumba: I wholeheartedly agree. And it just makes me think about Brene Brown again, about being ⁓ and you're vulnerable and your authentic self, people will show up for you. People will hold space for you. ⁓ And it's somebody just holding space as you talk through and process for of a better word, kind of what's going on and arriving at the solution. But a powerful thing for us just to up for one another. Imagine if we that all the time, how amazing things would be. Or even more amazing things would be, I should say. Cat Margulis: It is, it's amazing. was just, on Instagram for a second this morning. And, know, the first one that popped up was a friend of mine and she had lost somebody and she was about presence. And it just as a reminder that like the greatest gift we give every anybody is just presence is just being in that moment with them. ⁓ It's so hard. in my head all the time. I'm in the car with my kids and there's 20,000 different conversations happening in my head. But ⁓ ultimate. present moment is perfect and it's the greatest gift we can give anybody is just being in that moment with them. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Agreed. well said. Such wisdom. So only is your book going to be a best seller, but I just think your business is going to explode because so many people are I want Kat to coach me. I want Kat to help me strategize this particular story. So that's going to happen too. You know, and I can say, ⁓ Cat Margulis: So Yes. Great, because I got four kids to put through college, so it can't come soon enough. Jennifer Jumba: That's exactly right. But I just I think how many of us just feel stuck at times and hopefully seeing, Ali and Carmen in their journeys and the things that they do gives other people that to kind of reckon with that fear that they have. That there's more. mean, I I changed careers. I went to to grad school later in life and, people are but you're going to be ⁓ such and such many years old. was well, God willing, I should be such and such many years old then anyway, mine is well be doing something I want to do on my way to that age. It's best thing I ever did. I wish I would have done it sooner, but it's just part of my story, part of my journey. So ⁓ I applaud people who, yeah, that's such a cool thing. Yeah, I would talk to you. Cat Margulis: Yeah, it's incredible. It's an incredible. Yeah, I love that. Like, I love that story. I love that story about you doing that pivot. That is massive. That was a massive pivot. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I have people that encouraged me and I have incredible parents that said, we won't let you fail. Didn't ⁓ need them that way, but it was just that safety net to be able to say, yes, I'm going to take this big thing. I'm going to go to grad school and I'm going to work full time and just pivot, But then that means when you pivot, you start back. Cat Margulis: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: and you have to kind of work your way back up again. But you're doing something that you feel you were meant to do, ⁓ makes a whole big difference. ⁓ so glad that you take that time every morning to ground yourself, to reflect, and then out the trajectory from that point on. thank you. Cat Margulis: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love all of it. other thing I just, well, two things. So as far as personal development books, one that I really love that really meets people in this moment is the big leap, Gay Hendrix. And because see that all the time when people are at that inflection point and they're standing on the edge and they're like, You know, is the big leap. It's a big leap of faith. And so I love that book. And I see that all the time with the people that I work with, right? Like they, they're just at that moment of negotiation and hesitation. ⁓ And seeing all the stuff that they're working through in that ⁓ split all the stories, all the histories, anything anybody ever told them, every living belief, all this right there in that moment. And then ⁓ I just. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Right. Cat Margulis: push them over the edge anyway. Yeah. And, but the other really cool thing about the work that I've done and writing and writing books and, and helping other people tell stories and the beautiful work of art that is our lives is that everything is perfect. There are no mistakes and you ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Yeah. Cat Margulis: building the life that you built before and then you completely doing a 180 or a 360 and completely pivoting. Like everything you did before makes you better, stronger, more effective in your new transition and you're in the new space. So I just see everything always building and building and none of it, you know, when I look back at my history and it's like, That was not a mistake and everything that I learned and everything that I, every skill that I acquired, every experience that I had makes me more effective of what I do today. And so in a crazy, crazy way, it was all meant to be. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely and that comes through in the in the book that I think it's Carmen that's kind of struggling and Ali says to her, know, you're you're not superwoman you're gonna make mistakes and that's okay and to trust that that's just part of the process So such wisdom that you communicate, know in your work and in this book ⁓ and in a that's enjoyable and I have to say that the sticker that you sent that says like I'm extremely exhausted like existentially. I was like, Oh my goodness, there's somebody who knows me like somebody who knows me very well. But so such a relatable thing. And maybe, the gift, is not only becoming a best seller, but in reaching people in it in an entertaining way, but allowing people to kind of maybe pause and think about what it is that they're afraid of, or thinking about maybe a different way to show up for their friends and their, support. Cat Margulis: You Jennifer Jumba: circle, whatever that looks like. Yeah. So ⁓ at the end. I'd talk to you the whole rest of the day. So this is stories and final five questions. What is that is always part of your writing routine? Cat Margulis: Thank you very much. Music. gets me in the mood. Jennifer Jumba: perfect. When you're feeling overwhelmed, what is your go-to hack? Cat Margulis: can't say prayer. Again, that reflection of ⁓ myself of everything I've been through and ⁓ overcome. I talk to God a lot. I give him shit. I'll be honest with you. I give him shit. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, we're going to have some conversations if I make it there. Yeah. Cat Margulis: words man and just being able to like talk it out with you know in somebody invisible and and coach myself you know Jennifer Jumba: You have a lot of fun pop culture references in this book just because you've looked back on the ages when Carmen and Allie were in, middle school and high school together. Obviously stuff that resonated talking about watching saved by the bell, sweet Valley high books. And it's just like, ⁓ my goodness, such great things. So sweet, saved the favorite episode or character. Cat Margulis: Oh God, know, oh man, I wanted to be Tiffany and Amber Tyson. I'm like, that kind of girl. I was just like, you know, I'm Latina. We're just not made like that. But it's like, oh man, you know, in another life, can I be her? Jennifer Jumba: Right. When you read a book, do you ever read the ending first? Cat Margulis: No, I am a good girl. Jennifer Jumba: Good. Good. There's some people that read it first and I was like, well, what are you doing? And the final question, what song is always on a road trip playlist? Cat Margulis: good question. I mean, I think the standbys are Red Hot Chili Peppers and the Pixies. ⁓ Definitely the standbys, but Shins is coming up for me in this moment because I think that's good car music too. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I just have to watch my speed when I'm listening to them. It's really easy to a little bit faster. Yeah. Cat Margulis: Yes. ⁓ yeah! Jennifer Jumba: So a huge thank you to those of you who are listening and even thank you to Kat who is just a phenom. ⁓ Her debut novel, which is going to be a bestseller again, Only More Like You is available now. If you want to experience a range emotions from laughter, to and tender and heartfelt moments, you will love the journeys of both Carmen and Ali how bonds of friendship are the strongest when we least expect it. It's like reading a hug. More about Kat can be found at katmargoulas.com. To find out who else will be a guest on Story to Count, go to storytocount.com. This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. Cat Margulis: Thank you. That was so fun.