Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1122 - From the Doctor's Desk: Low Income = High Stress & Is Smacking All That Bad

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#1122 - From the Doctor's Desk: Low Income = High Stress & Is Smacking All That Bad · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:04
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.
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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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Speaker 2: once answers now.
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Speaker 1: Today on the Happy Families podcast. It's my favorite episode
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Speaker 1: and the last one that we're going to be doing
0:18
Speaker 1: this year. I'm so sad, Kylie, this is the last
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Speaker 1: Doctor's Desk episode.
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Speaker 2: I can't believe I have made this conversation so sad.
0:25
Speaker 1: For those of you who have not heard The Doctor's
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Speaker 1: Desk before. It's the best podcast episode we ever do
0:29
Speaker 1: every month Christmas coming up. We're not going to do
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Speaker 1: one next month, but we kind of have a look
0:35
Speaker 1: at some brand new research and look at how it
0:37
Speaker 1: affects families, what's been going on in the world of parenting,
0:40
Speaker 1: science and so forth. Kylie, we have four studies to
0:43
Speaker 1: go through. We don't have time for all four of them,
0:45
Speaker 1: and I want to spend a lot of time on
0:46
Speaker 1: each of them. We're going to see if we can
0:47
Speaker 1: do each one in like two and a half to
0:48
Speaker 1: three minutes. Never before done so much to talk about
0:52
Speaker 1: where are we starting today?
0:54
Speaker 2: A study came out of Wellington, New Zealand discussing the
0:58
Speaker 2: impact of income income on children's behavioral development.
1:04
Speaker 1: So there's a fair better research around the idea that
1:06
Speaker 1: income will have some impact on how kids develop. This
1:08
Speaker 1: study from New Zealand from will willing Willington, I don't
1:12
Speaker 1: know if I'm you know what, I shouldn't try to
1:13
Speaker 1: do that because I love going to New Zealand and
1:15
Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm giving Kiwi's a hard time, Keewey's
1:18
Speaker 1: give Australians a hard time. I'm okay with that. New
1:20
Speaker 1: Zealand Willington University new study links low incomes. Did I
1:24
Speaker 1: do that? Well? Did its terrible? New study links becomes stress,
1:29
Speaker 1: parents and child behavior. And essentially the argument that they
1:32
Speaker 1: make is if we can support parents better financially, then
1:34
Speaker 1: they're probably going to have better outcomes across the board.
1:38
Speaker 2: Well, income would ultimately suggest education status.
1:42
Speaker 1: In most cases, there's a relationship between education and income.
1:45
Speaker 1: Certainly as one goes up, so too does the other.
1:48
Speaker 2: And that has to have an impact. Yeah.
1:51
Speaker 1: Here's what they did. Data from more than six thousand
1:53
Speaker 1: New Zealand mothers and their children in the Growing Up
1:56
Speaker 1: in New Zealand study, which is kind of like the
1:58
Speaker 1: Growing Up in Australia longest that's been going on. In particular,
2:02
Speaker 1: they look at children's social and emotional development examined a
2:05
Speaker 1: core school, which reflected their conduct, their hyperactivity, their emotional
2:08
Speaker 1: peer relationship problems as reported by the mums. What they
2:12
Speaker 1: basically say is children with high scores may have problems
2:15
Speaker 1: with areas like friendship, paying attention at school, which could
2:19
Speaker 1: be a forerunner for future mental health problem. So it's
2:21
Speaker 1: really important. The research that they're doing here, they're following
2:24
Speaker 1: kids from pregnancy to eight years of age, and what
2:27
Speaker 1: they found is that for periods where family income was higher,
2:31
Speaker 1: children had fewer reported behavior problems than during periods where
2:35
Speaker 1: income was lower. But interestingly, it was only in the
2:37
Speaker 1: preschool years. What the researchers are essentially arguing is that
2:41
Speaker 1: a higher family income does seem to help children's early
2:43
Speaker 1: social and emotional development and head off children's behavior problems.
2:48
Speaker 2: Well, I guess the biggest question is why.
2:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one's interesting to me. The argument that they
2:55
Speaker 1: make is so in relationships, in communication, there's this thing
3:00
Speaker 1: known as serve and return. I say something I serve essentially,
3:04
Speaker 1: and then you hear it, and then you return. You
3:06
Speaker 1: ask a question, or you engage with me, you interact
3:08
Speaker 1: in some way or another, And this is really crucial
3:11
Speaker 1: for children's brain development, and essentially, in their models, what
3:15
Speaker 1: they're suggesting is that when mothers are super stressed, often
3:19
Speaker 1: because of financial stress and so on, and if they're
3:23
Speaker 1: exhibiting parenting behaviors that are related to stress, like yelling
3:27
Speaker 1: and arguing with children, the servant return isn't happening. So
3:29
Speaker 1: that's affecting brain Development's affecting behavior problems, affecting cor de
3:32
Speaker 1: soul levels, it's affecting adrenaline and all of this. What
3:36
Speaker 1: they basically say is overall, and this is a direct quote,
3:39
Speaker 1: a higher income appears to lower stress and create space
3:43
Speaker 1: for more engaged parenting, which benefits children's social and emotional development.
3:48
Speaker 1: It's a really fascinating start. It's really really important conversation.
3:52
Speaker 1: And I bring it up here. I know a lot
3:54
Speaker 1: of people are probably going to listen and go, yeah, well,
3:55
Speaker 1: that's not going to help me because I'm dealing with
3:58
Speaker 1: a whole lot of financial stress. I don't have efficient income,
4:01
Speaker 1: and my children are behaving in challenging ways. And now
4:03
Speaker 1: you're telling me there's my fault. Number one, I don't
4:05
Speaker 1: earn enough money, and number two, i'm being allows to parent.
4:07
Speaker 1: That's that's certainly not what I'm suggesting at all. What
4:09
Speaker 1: I am suggesting I think what this research points to
4:12
Speaker 1: is that when we can help, when we can create
4:15
Speaker 1: at a policy level and an economy that supports employment,
4:21
Speaker 1: that supports meaning and purpose and gives people the opportunity
4:24
Speaker 1: to generate sufficient income to support their families, that we
4:27
Speaker 1: get better outcomes. And unfortunately, in our society today, the
4:31
Speaker 1: cost of living, cost of housing and rent, mortgage, whatever,
4:35
Speaker 1: everything costs so much, parents are so stressed out. It
4:37
Speaker 1: does have an impact on the quality of relationships and
4:39
Speaker 1: children's outcomes. It's kind of a sad news story, but
4:44
Speaker 1: it's a really important study and I think one that
4:46
Speaker 1: one that needs ongoing attention.
4:49
Speaker 2: Our second study is out of the University of Wollongong, ah.
4:53
Speaker 1: My alma mater. That's where I do we say Alma
4:55
Speaker 1: mart I think we do even in astral as we
4:56
Speaker 1: talk about Alma Mater. Yeah, great, great university.
5:00
Speaker 2: Where they looked at three and four year olds and
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Speaker 2: they look specifically at their sedentary behavior, physical activity, and
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Speaker 2: sleep and the percentage that these kids are getting out
5:13
Speaker 2: of each of those areas.
5:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, how many of the kids are actually meeting The
5:16
Speaker 1: World Health Organization guidelines for physical activity, sedentary behavior, and sleep,
5:20
Speaker 1: thirty three countries, big study, really really clever work that
5:24
Speaker 1: they've done here. They had seven thousand and seventeen children
5:30
Speaker 1: who participated in this, and here are the guidelines. Okay,
5:33
Speaker 1: the proportion of children who meet the World Health Organization
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Speaker 1: guidelines for physical activity, which is supposed to be greater
5:41
Speaker 1: than one hundred and eighty minutes a day of total
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Speaker 1: physical activity and greater than sixty minutes of moderate to
5:46
Speaker 1: vigorous intensity in their physical activity screen time, they're saying
5:50
Speaker 1: less than an hour a day because we're looking at
5:52
Speaker 1: three year olds and sleep duration ten to thirteen hours
5:54
Speaker 1: a day. So they've estimated that across countries and by
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Speaker 1: World Bank income group and geographical region using big meta analyzes.
6:02
Speaker 1: And Kylie, would you imagine the across the globe that
6:06
Speaker 1: most three and four year olds are getting enough sleep,
6:08
Speaker 1: are moving their bodies enough, and are essentially not sedentary
6:12
Speaker 1: too much?
6:13
Speaker 2: I want to say yes, but I actually don't think so.
6:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd probably be right.
6:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the challenge I have with it, and I
6:21
Speaker 2: actually it actually saddens me so much when I think
6:25
Speaker 2: of the average three or four year old.
6:28
Speaker 1: These are busy kids, Well, they're supposed to be.
6:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're busy kids. They're so inquisitive, they're so curious,
6:36
Speaker 2: and when they're not boxed in, you actually kind of
6:39
Speaker 2: can't stop them from moving because that's what their development
6:44
Speaker 2: stage is.
6:45
Speaker 1: Let me ask you, if you would a guess. You
6:47
Speaker 1: haven't seen the study. You don't know what's about to
6:48
Speaker 1: come out of my mouth. If you were to guess
6:50
Speaker 1: what percentage of kids are meeting those guidelines that is,
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Speaker 1: moving their bodies one hundred and eighty minutes a day
6:55
Speaker 1: or more, with at least sixty minutes of moderate to
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Speaker 1: vigorous intensity in their physical likevity, less than hour of
7:00
Speaker 1: screen time, and ten to thirteen hours of sleep. What
7:03
Speaker 1: percentage of kids across those thirty three countries would you
7:06
Speaker 1: imagine ticking those three boxes?
7:08
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I have no idea, but I would suggest
7:12
Speaker 2: that's probably twenty five percent or less. I think.
7:15
Speaker 1: Damn, that's that's pretty close. It was fourteen percent, Yeah,
7:19
Speaker 1: fourteen percent of kids.
7:20
Speaker 2: I was hopeful. That's why I went that high.
7:23
Speaker 1: Right, So curiously, there was no clear pattern. According to
7:26
Speaker 1: income group, the proportion meeting the guidelines was sixteen point
7:30
Speaker 1: six percent in low and lower middle income countries, eleven
7:34
Speaker 1: point nine percent in upper middle income countries, which is
7:39
Speaker 1: not good. I mean only eleven percent and fourteen point
7:42
Speaker 1: four percent in high income countries. The region with the
7:46
Speaker 1: highest proportion meeting the guidelines was Africa. Well the lowest
7:52
Speaker 1: proportion North and South America. I just I find this fascinating.
7:57
Speaker 1: I guess the conclusion for this one really is that
7:58
Speaker 1: most around four year olds in this analysis and not
8:02
Speaker 1: meeting the guidelines for physical activity, for sleep, and for
8:05
Speaker 1: sedentary behavior, and as families, these are things that really
8:08
Speaker 1: matter for healthy lives.
8:10
Speaker 2: And the interesting thing just the correlation. If our children
8:14
Speaker 2: are using their bodies more, they're going to sleep better
8:17
Speaker 2: across the board. I just, yeah, I feel like our
8:22
Speaker 2: children's I don't know if spirit's the right word, but
8:25
Speaker 2: I feel like it's just being crushed.
8:27
Speaker 1: The world is not designed for kids. I was seeing
8:29
Speaker 1: that increasingly. Kylie. We have two studies.
8:39
Speaker 2: Left, Okay, impact of school phone bands on children's behavior
8:44
Speaker 2: while at school.
8:46
Speaker 1: I'm so excited about this one. So as you know,
8:48
Speaker 1: last year or the year before, I was in conjunction
8:51
Speaker 1: with Rebecca Sparrow mid On a King and a handful
8:53
Speaker 1: of other people. We petitioned Grace Grace, the Education Minister
8:56
Speaker 1: at the time in Queensland, to bring the band in
8:58
Speaker 1: and align Queensland with what was going on in other schools.
9:02
Speaker 1: There's been a brand new article written in the Daily
9:05
Speaker 1: Telegraph by Elid Sproulmelis who says one year on, the
9:10
Speaker 1: state wide ban on mobile phones in schools has been
9:13
Speaker 1: near universally hailed as a success, with almost ninety percent
9:17
Speaker 1: of principles claiming it has reduced classroom distractions. Let me
9:21
Speaker 1: read on. The state wide ban on mobile phones in
9:23
Speaker 1: schools has been universally hailed as a success by almost
9:27
Speaker 1: a thousand school leaders one year on, and principles say
9:29
Speaker 1: they're relieved to be quote protecting a whole generation of
9:32
Speaker 1: children from screen addiction and distraction. And a survey of
9:35
Speaker 1: nine hundred and sixty eight primary and high school principle
9:37
Speaker 1: was conducted by the Department of Education in New South Wales.
9:39
Speaker 1: Ninety five percent ninety five percent said that they supported
9:42
Speaker 1: the mobile phone ban at their school. Asked about the
9:44
Speaker 1: impact on students, eighty seven percent of the two hundred
9:47
Speaker 1: and four secondary school principles surveyed said the ban had
9:50
Speaker 1: reduced classroom distractions, and sixty eight percent reported it was
9:53
Speaker 1: quote a lot better. One more thing that I'll add here, Kylie.
9:57
Speaker 1: Social interactions between students have also improved. Eighty six percent
10:00
Speaker 1: of principles I highlighted that that was the case, and
10:04
Speaker 1: more than half said student learning at their school was
10:06
Speaker 1: quote a lot better post ban. Overall, four and five
10:09
Speaker 1: noticed improvements, while only nineteen percent reported no change, a worsening,
10:15
Speaker 1: or declined to respond. I mean, this is a good
10:17
Speaker 1: news story. Support for the phone ban when we were
10:21
Speaker 1: talking about bringing it in in Queensland was not exactly high,
10:26
Speaker 1: and the government was really pushing against it and agitating
10:28
Speaker 1: and saying no, no, no community consultation, we don't need to
10:31
Speaker 1: do it. And I was dogmatic. I was adamant that
10:34
Speaker 1: this was necessary. And I feel vindicated. I feel like
10:37
Speaker 1: I knew what I was talking about. Maybe sometimes the
10:39
Speaker 1: experts do know what's going on. That's my one.
10:43
Speaker 2: I find this one interesting because you've got ninety five
10:45
Speaker 2: percent of parents who supported it.
10:48
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah.
10:50
Speaker 2: Yet is this a case of parents not wanting to
10:54
Speaker 2: be the bad guy? Because as a parent, I can
10:57
Speaker 2: just say to my kid, you can't take your phone
10:59
Speaker 2: to school.
11:00
Speaker 1: It's really really easy when you can say to your children,
11:02
Speaker 1: guess what, it's against the law, So you can't drive,
11:04
Speaker 1: even though you're fifteen or sixteen and you've got your l's,
11:07
Speaker 1: but you can't drive on your own. It's really easy
11:09
Speaker 1: to say it's the law that X has to happen,
11:12
Speaker 1: or why has to happen? And kids will I mean
11:16
Speaker 1: sometimes they'll be upset about it, but they generally comply.
11:18
Speaker 1: They get it. It's the law, and so by bringing
11:20
Speaker 1: this ban in now, it's futile to argue against it.
11:23
Speaker 1: There's no point arguing because it's the law, it's the rule.
11:26
Speaker 1: The ban is in place, and this is just how
11:29
Speaker 1: we do things here. It changes the culture. I think
11:31
Speaker 1: overall it's a good thing, regardless of the challenge that
11:33
Speaker 1: you raise. And we know that parents absolutely struggling with
11:38
Speaker 1: it and want to do better, but sometimes they just
11:40
Speaker 1: feel so helpless. I think this is a good news story,
11:43
Speaker 1: and it's great to see some research coming out that
11:44
Speaker 1: supports something that we've been agitating for for a long time.
11:48
Speaker 1: Great news.
11:49
Speaker 2: Well, our last setting looked at whether or not smacking
11:52
Speaker 2: kids harms child development. Can I just say I'm struggling
11:56
Speaker 2: to understand why in twenty twenty five we're still having this.
12:00
Speaker 1: Well when not quite a twenty twenty five yet that's
12:02
Speaker 1: still a few weeks away. I'm going to give credit
12:05
Speaker 1: to our happy Famili's audience, and I'm going to ask
12:08
Speaker 1: for patients as I explain this study, because it is
12:10
Speaker 1: really important. I know the researcher who's done the study
12:14
Speaker 1: personally from the University of Oklahoma. His name is Bob Lasliir,
12:18
Speaker 1: and he's been researching this for decades. The research appeared
12:22
Speaker 1: in Marriage and Family Review, which is a well regarded journal,
12:27
Speaker 1: and it's called resolving the Contradictory Conclusions from three reviews
12:31
Speaker 1: of controlled longitudinal Studies of physical punishment a meta analysis.
12:35
Speaker 1: Now this is a big one. A meta analysis matter.
12:38
Speaker 1: This is actually quite an important study. For years now,
12:41
Speaker 1: I have said that I fundamentally and completely reject the
12:44
Speaker 1: idea that smacking is a useful disciplinary strategy for kids.
12:50
Speaker 1: And I do that because it's shorthand it's also popular,
12:52
Speaker 1: and because I do believe it. I believe that there
12:56
Speaker 1: are better ways to discipline kids. But in my emails
12:59
Speaker 1: with and in my conversations with him over the years,
13:04
Speaker 1: there's been a couple of things that have really struck me.
13:07
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a really see what I did? They've
13:09
Speaker 1: really struck me. We're talking about smacking. I'm I'm so sorry.
13:11
Speaker 1: I'll move on. You just rolled You didn't even respond,
13:13
Speaker 1: just rolled your eyes. My goodness. He's argued that smacking
13:18
Speaker 1: should only have a limited place in parenting, and he's
13:21
Speaker 1: also argued that it's not as bad as everyone makes
13:24
Speaker 1: it out to be. And I think that the average
13:27
Speaker 1: Australian parent that's an argument that I hear all the
13:31
Speaker 1: time as well. It's just a little tap. Now, I've
13:33
Speaker 1: got really strong moral and philosophical reasons for arguing against smacking.
13:40
Speaker 1: No one ever smacks and says, oh, look at me
13:42
Speaker 1: nailing parenting. But what Bob has always argued is that
13:45
Speaker 1: there's a dose response. The more you do it, the
13:48
Speaker 1: worse the outcomes. But if you only do it a
13:49
Speaker 1: little bit, if it's measured, and if it's at the
13:52
Speaker 1: right age, his argument is it's okay. And he's been
13:56
Speaker 1: saying this for a long time. His evidence says this.
14:00
Speaker 1: They found that smacking kids explains less than one percent
14:04
Speaker 1: of changes in child outcomes. But he's very clear on
14:08
Speaker 1: what smacking is acceptable and what's smacking is not acceptable.
14:12
Speaker 1: And I cringe as I say this, because for the
14:14
Speaker 1: last twenty years I have actively discouraged smacking, and I've
14:19
Speaker 1: actively said it's just not okay in any circumstances. But
14:22
Speaker 1: I want to be fair to what the data highlights here,
14:25
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping other people can deal with me cringing
14:28
Speaker 1: as I say it. The study recommends that if spanking
14:31
Speaker 1: is used, the most effective approach is two open handed
14:35
Speaker 1: swats on the bottom for children aged two to six
14:40
Speaker 1: when they don't respond to milder discipline. Now again, I'm
14:44
Speaker 1: cringing as I say this, because I don't think that
14:46
Speaker 1: we should be smacking our kids. I don't think that
14:48
Speaker 1: it's necessary. I think that we have far better ways
14:50
Speaker 1: of doing it. But I also know that some parents
14:52
Speaker 1: are out there with sand and you and I both,
14:54
Speaker 1: if we're completely honest, know that over the years, unfortunately,
14:58
Speaker 1: from time to time, we've used methods that we don't
15:01
Speaker 1: always agree with because we've been at our wits end
15:03
Speaker 1: and we just need a solution for it.
15:05
Speaker 2: So you also don't use that as a justification. And
15:08
Speaker 2: I think this really kind of is stretching my capacity
15:14
Speaker 2: as far as the research goes, because, like you highlighted earlier,
15:19
Speaker 2: I don't think any parent gives themselves a pat on
15:22
Speaker 2: the back after an experience like that.
15:24
Speaker 1: Now they give themselves a kick in the bump. Yeah.
15:26
Speaker 2: The times where that has been a part of my
15:28
Speaker 2: parenting toolkit has been when I've been at my lowest,
15:32
Speaker 2: when I'm struggling as a parent. I'm not sitting there
15:36
Speaker 2: going this is the only option in that moment. There
15:40
Speaker 2: isn't any other options.
15:42
Speaker 1: But I'm not thinking that right, and I'm always going
15:44
Speaker 1: to advocate for alternative methods. I'm sharing this in the
15:47
Speaker 1: doctor's desk because this is a scientific discussion. That's what
15:50
Speaker 1: this podcast is for. I don't disagree with the data,
15:54
Speaker 1: I disagree with the morality and the philosophy. And again,
15:58
Speaker 1: does that make sense?
15:58
Speaker 2: Yes? And because the other part of me is that
16:00
Speaker 2: the parents who would say to you, I've just given
16:04
Speaker 2: them at a spot and I haven't lost control. I've done
16:06
Speaker 2: this completely intentionally.
16:08
Speaker 1: In cold blood. I can't help them.
16:11
Speaker 2: Moral capacity to make a decision about hitting your child
16:15
Speaker 2: with clarity. It's not a reactive.
16:18
Speaker 1: Response, it's not a justsregulated thing.
16:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, then you clearly have the capacity to think of
16:24
Speaker 2: another option.
16:26
Speaker 1: Okay, so we could talk about that for a while,
16:28
Speaker 1: because this is doctor's desk. I just want to talk
16:30
Speaker 1: about what the science showed, because I think it's fair
16:34
Speaker 1: to the science. Here's what he says. He says he
16:37
Speaker 1: wanted to discover what disciplinary responses are more effective than smacking,
16:41
Speaker 1: so that we can recommend them to replace smacking. His
16:45
Speaker 1: response to that, by the way, is that there are none,
16:47
Speaker 1: although parents should prefer molder and verbal disciplinary responses as
16:51
Speaker 1: much as possible. I've got this thing called the three
16:53
Speaker 1: ees works really well, and he and I've talked about it,
16:55
Speaker 1: and he does like my three e'es. But he keeps
16:56
Speaker 1: going back to this. By the way, he and Diana
16:59
Speaker 1: Borman and don't a lot of studies together. And as
17:01
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a huge fan of Dinah Borman.
17:04
Speaker 1: And he says, also, although it is clear that spanking
17:07
Speaker 1: is correlated with adverse outcomes like delinquency, does it cause
17:11
Speaker 1: those outcomes or not? And what his answer is, smacking
17:16
Speaker 1: does not cause harmful outcomes unless it's used too often
17:19
Speaker 1: or too severely, or out of meanness than out of
17:22
Speaker 1: concern for children's welfare. Now. I know you and I
17:24
Speaker 1: are both going to have a response to that, but
17:26
Speaker 1: I don't want to get caught up in the response.
17:28
Speaker 1: I just want to report the study essentially, longer channel
17:30
Speaker 1: data meta analysis. I know me too, even as I
17:33
Speaker 1: read it. This is a really hard one to report on.
17:35
Speaker 1: But this is a doctor's desk, and I am a scientist,
17:39
Speaker 1: and the science fascinates me, even if I morally disagree
17:43
Speaker 1: with what it's found. Meta analysis twelve and a half
17:47
Speaker 1: nearly thirteen thousand participants across forty seven studies kids ranging
17:50
Speaker 1: from eighteen months through to eleven years. Researchers focus on
17:53
Speaker 1: four key child outcomes externalizing problems where kids are aggressive
17:56
Speaker 1: and defiant, internalizing problems like anxiety and depression, cognitive performance,
18:00
Speaker 1: and social competence. After controlling for baseline behavior, the research
18:04
Speaker 1: has found that smacking explained less than one percent of
18:06
Speaker 1: the variation in child outcomes. Essentially, what they're basically saying
18:11
Speaker 1: is that smacking has a minimal impact on externalizing problems,
18:14
Speaker 1: internalizing problems, cognitive performance, and social competence. The results fundamentally
18:20
Speaker 1: indicate that previous reports of the harmful effects of smacking
18:22
Speaker 1: may have been overstated due to residual confounding, meaning that
18:25
Speaker 1: other unmeasured factors may have influenced the negative outcomes rather
18:28
Speaker 1: than smacking itself. It could also be that people are
18:32
Speaker 1: measuring smacking that is beyond the two handed swat with
18:35
Speaker 1: two to six year olds. There's any number of reasons
18:37
Speaker 1: that he's got these findings. I'm concerned about it. I
18:39
Speaker 1: think that there's some selective choices that have been made
18:43
Speaker 1: in terms of the studies that are included in the
18:44
Speaker 1: meta analysis. I'm also concerned about it because I think
18:47
Speaker 1: that it gives people a green light for smacking. I'm
18:50
Speaker 1: concerned about it for a whole lot of other reasons
18:52
Speaker 1: that you and I have sort already touched on. But
18:55
Speaker 1: I also need to highlight one other thing, and that
18:56
Speaker 1: is that these findings are in line with a study
18:59
Speaker 1: that was published in Child Development, which is one of
19:01
Speaker 1: the biggest and most important journalist that are out there
19:05
Speaker 1: in this field in twenty twenty one, which did find
19:07
Speaker 1: that occasional wilds banking had minimal negative effects on child behavior.
19:12
Speaker 1: So there it is Kylie Doctor's Desk kind of feeling
19:14
Speaker 1: on a downer really important to highlight. In spite of
19:18
Speaker 1: this research. Obviously, smacking canon does cause significant harm. It
19:23
Speaker 1: can be misused, It is likely to have harmful effects
19:27
Speaker 1: if it is misused, and if it's done too frequently,
19:30
Speaker 1: or if it's done because that's what we've always done,
19:32
Speaker 1: and we allow ourselves to think that it's okay, and
19:34
Speaker 1: we get in the habit of it, that's when we
19:36
Speaker 1: start to get negative outcomes. I hate the study. I
19:41
Speaker 1: hate the research. I hate that it's there. But we've
19:44
Speaker 1: got a couple of studies in the last couple of
19:45
Speaker 1: years that have been very, very very well done by
19:48
Speaker 1: well respected researchers, that are suggesting that if you're getting
19:52
Speaker 1: it wrong, don't forgive the pun, don't beat yourself up
19:57
Speaker 1: about it, but please remember the are better ways to
20:00
Speaker 1: do it. And I've written several books about it. And
20:02
Speaker 1: I'm not sharing this Doctor's Desk episode or this particular
20:06
Speaker 1: study to vindicate or justify the hitting of children. I
20:09
Speaker 1: find it reprehensible. I still reject its usefulness, and I
20:13
Speaker 1: still argue that there are better things out there. If
20:16
Speaker 1: there's any good to come out of this particular one,
20:19
Speaker 1: it's that if you have given your kid a sword
20:22
Speaker 1: because you have been dysregulated and you're so over it
20:24
Speaker 1: and you just don't know what to do. The good
20:26
Speaker 1: news is it's probably not going to have any detrimental
20:28
Speaker 1: effects long term song as you don't keep doing it,
20:30
Speaker 1: so long as you do find better ways.
20:32
Speaker 2: Well, if you were trying to encourage me to enjoy
20:35
Speaker 2: this episode better, you didn't do a very good job
20:39
Speaker 2: of it. I still don't like Doctor's Desk, and especially
20:41
Speaker 2: after today's data.
20:44
Speaker 1: You know what, I still find it fascinating. I mean,
20:45
Speaker 1: the science of it is amazing. I could sit down
20:47
Speaker 1: and do it.
20:48
Speaker 2: But here's the conversation piece. We could talk about this
20:50
Speaker 2: for ages. But you find what you look what you're
20:52
Speaker 2: looking for?
20:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you do, you do.
20:56
Speaker 2: And if you want to justify smacking, then you're going
20:58
Speaker 2: to find data to support caught that.
21:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So let's pretend that I didn't do that one,
21:04
Speaker 1: and we'll wrap things up by saying that The Happy
21:06
Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulla for a Bridge Media.
21:10
Speaker 1: It's so funny. If you'd like more information about how
21:12
Speaker 1: to not smack your kids and actually love them and
21:14
Speaker 1: raise them in wonderful ways that help them to be
21:16
Speaker 1: disciplined and do really well without the punitive stuff and
21:20
Speaker 1: without going down the bob lastly a path, nice guy
21:22
Speaker 1: that he is. You can visit us at heavy families
21:25
Speaker 1: dot com dot you. I'm going to say, just grab
21:28
Speaker 1: my book The Pairing Revolution. It's got everything you need,
21:30
Speaker 1: like it's so done. Help for pairing and revolution wherever
21:33
Speaker 1: you get your books, and you can pretend that we
21:36
Speaker 1: didn't just talk about that. Folks on the other three studies,