Transcript

All Tapped Out · Politix

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Florida Democrats just don't have a candidate.
0:03
And I think the moral of this Tennessee race should be like if
0:07
you are a Florida
0:08
SPEAKER_01: politician,
0:09
SPEAKER_01: if you're a Democrat,
0:11
SPEAKER_01: like get in this Senate race.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:12
Hey,
0:17
everyone,
0:18
you're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: This week,
0:21
SPEAKER_00: with the Trump administration embroiled in a major war crime scandal,
0:26
SPEAKER_00: we'll take another look at the Democrats,
0:28
SPEAKER_00: the seditious six,
0:30
who took the initiative and inserted the issue of illegal
0:33
orders into the political
0:34
SPEAKER_00: discourse.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Then we'll look at some recent news in Democratic politics.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: The election results in Tennessee's 7th Congressional District,
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Jasmine Crockett's Senate candidacy,
0:45
SPEAKER_00: to do a pre-midterms gut check.
0:47
And somehow we'll connect these two disparate-seeming
0:50
conversations together.
0:52
If you want to hear the whole thing,
0:52
you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Politics Podcast.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Boyler.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm Matthew Glacius.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: So I was out of the country last week on family vacation,
1:08
and I tried to keep up with the news as best I could without
1:12
being a dick.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think I succeeded at that.
1:17
But so the story that broke through the clearest from down in
1:20
South America was the
1:21
SPEAKER_00: revelation that
1:23
that at least two of these boat murders in the Caribbean were
1:26
even more war crimey
1:29
SPEAKER_00: than all of the boat murders appear on the face of it.
1:33
Can you catch me up like a little more fully than that before
1:36
we talk about the
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Democrats who kind of like anticipated all this?
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: So information arose,
1:44
an indication that Pete Hegseth had specifically but verbally
1:50
stated that there
1:51
SPEAKER_01: should be nobody left alive and that,
1:56
SPEAKER_01: you know.
1:56
This is for a boat strike back in early,
1:58
like one of the one of the first ones,
2:00
right?
2:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: One that happened earlier, one that happened notably before the incident.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: So this order was given.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: There was some strike.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: At the time, you know, we didn't know anything about it.
2:13
We then knew that later there was a strike that had survivors
2:18
and the survivors were captured.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: And then the administration chose to let the people who were captured go.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: And so that generated a kind of a mini story where it's like,
2:30
SPEAKER_01: if you're so sure these people are dangerous narco terrorists,
2:34
SPEAKER_01: why are you letting them go?
2:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's one thing to shoot to kill.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: It's another thing to somebody like we tried to kill them,
2:44
SPEAKER_01: but then having failed to kill them,
2:46
SPEAKER_01: we've decided they could just go on their merry way.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
2:51
They clearly didn't want to put them on trial because that
2:54
would require some
2:55
SPEAKER_01: production of evidence or lack of evidence.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: But it then came out.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Then sometime after that,
3:03
the admiral in charge of Southern Command departed under
3:07
mysterious circumstances.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Very early into a tenure for a big deal job.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: So that.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: So what we now learned seemingly about this,
3:15
SPEAKER_01: at least the allegation,
3:16
SPEAKER_01: it seems that Hegseth gave like a no quarters order,
3:23
SPEAKER_01: right?
3:23
Like he told the people who were tasked with carrying out these
3:26
strikes that they
3:27
SPEAKER_01: could not leave any survivors.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: And then it seems that somebody in the mix suggested not doing that.
3:37
and following a more normal military protocol in which you take
3:41
stranded people captive.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Getting captives was clearly undesired,
3:48
SPEAKER_01: like on multiple levels,
3:49
SPEAKER_01: such as the captives were cut loose.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: The admiral himself was then cut loose.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And then we got the mysterious Seditious Six video,
4:01
which they said was in response to questions that they were
4:04
getting from people in
4:06
SPEAKER_01: the service.
4:07
So you can't tell from those publicly available facts who
4:11
exactly did what.
4:14
But it's painting a picture of some dissent inside the Southcom
4:18
command structure
4:20
over the fact that they felt they had been given this illegal
4:24
directive by the
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SPEAKER_01: Secretary of Defense to...
4:28
SPEAKER_01: not allow any survivors.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Do we know if the,
4:33
so they're calling this the double tap strike because there's a
4:36
video and now
4:38
SPEAKER_00: members of the Senate at least have seen,
4:39
SPEAKER_00: or the House and Senate have seen it.
4:42
It apparently shows the first strike and then a couple people
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surviving kind of
4:46
SPEAKER_00: clinging to driftwood or whatever remains of the boat.
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And then at some points,
4:51
you know,
4:51
almost an hour later,
4:52
they get vaporized by a second strike.
4:57
Do we know if that happened before or after the incident where
5:02
they repatriated the
5:04
SPEAKER_00: survivors to their home?
5:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this was before.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: So because it matters, right?
5:09
Because if they did this,
5:11
concerns arose that they had committed a war crime.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: You know.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: With weeks to go before this bubbles up into a congressional issue.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: And then a similar thing happens again, but they don't repeat that.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: the same, uh, steps.
5:31
They don't,
5:31
they don't like,
5:32
uh,
5:33
kill the,
5:33
the shipwrecked people on the second time around.
5:37
It,
5:38
I like,
5:38
it suggests that maybe that they got spooked,
5:41
that they had,
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uh,
5:43
SPEAKER_00: They realized that they had done something illegal,
5:46
SPEAKER_00: that people were upset about it,
5:47
SPEAKER_00: and that if it happened again,
5:50
SPEAKER_00: it might come out.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: It has come out anyway,
5:53
SPEAKER_00: but I do think that it matters which order it happened in to some extent,
5:57
SPEAKER_01: right?
5:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think so.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we will learn more.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: It seems like there's going to be hearings.
6:02
I also,
6:03
I want to object slightly to the characterization of this as a
6:08
double tap strike.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Double tap...
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SPEAKER_01: Military tactic, which is also bad, to be clear, is something different.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: The idea of a double tap is that,
6:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:20
an explosion goes off and then you wait until rescuers are in
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the vicinity and then
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SPEAKER_01: you strike them.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: right?
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very bad.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: That's the double tap.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: And that is a real thing that has gone on in various different places,
6:40
SPEAKER_01: allegations of the United States and Israel doing it.
6:44
Russia and Syria did it extensively in Syria and in Ukraine,
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et cetera,
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et cetera.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: That's not what this was.
6:53
Like,
6:54
it is true that they did a second strike after the first
6:58
strike,
6:59
but the
7:00
SPEAKER_00: But there wasn't there isn't even a war.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's different on so many levels.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: No, no.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: But I mean,
7:06
SPEAKER_01: I actually think that that's really it's a really important distinction,
7:10
SPEAKER_01: though,
7:11
SPEAKER_01: because the the the critical thing that's happening here,
7:15
SPEAKER_01: it seems to me,
7:17
is that the Trump administration is refusing to take any of
7:22
these people captive.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Which is just unusual.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: You know,
7:28
SPEAKER_01: like they,
7:30
SPEAKER_01: A,
7:30
like you would think you would just try to interdict drug boats
7:34
rather than like
7:35
SPEAKER_01: shoot first,
7:36
SPEAKER_01: ask questions later.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: You know,
7:38
if the DEA were to shoot at some people who they thought were
7:43
drug dealers and like
7:46
SPEAKER_01: they fell out of a van and like one of them survived,
7:50
SPEAKER_01: they would arrest the survivor,
7:52
SPEAKER_01: not just in like general humanitarian principles,
7:55
SPEAKER_01: but because you would want to interrogate the person.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: They keep not doing that.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:00
They seem to have like they've left some directive that like it
8:05
is unacceptable for
8:07
these people to end up in American custody to the point where
8:10
when two of them did
8:11
SPEAKER_01: end up in American custody,
8:13
SPEAKER_01: they let them go.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's like a a.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Known unknown lurking at the heart of this,
8:25
SPEAKER_01: I think,
8:25
SPEAKER_01: is like,
8:26
SPEAKER_01: what is going on?
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: So then we because we had another report.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: This was about I think this was about a different boat,
8:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:35
SPEAKER_01: but the but the leaks,
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SPEAKER_01: the leak machine has started firing up about this whole operation.
8:40
And the leak on this one was,
8:41
OK,
8:41
they blew up a boat,
8:43
but the boat was going to Suriname.
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SPEAKER_00: Was this not the same boat?
8:48
SPEAKER_00: I think this was a different boat.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Either way, it was one of these boats, right?
8:53
The general reporting is that- Is it easier to go from
8:57
Venezuela to Suriname by
8:59
SPEAKER_00: boat or over land?
9:01
SPEAKER_00: Is it complicated to get,
9:03
SPEAKER_00: if you're a narco,
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SPEAKER_00: to smuggle the drugs where the missiles aren't flying?
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a country, Guyana, that's between-
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there's a border, but, you know.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not just there's a border.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: There's a whole country between Venezuela and Suriname, right?
9:22
SPEAKER_01: So if you can go on a boat, you go into Suriname.
9:25
And then I think the idea is that Suriname is like in some kind
9:29
of customs union
9:30
SPEAKER_01: with the Netherlands,
9:31
SPEAKER_01: right?
9:34
SPEAKER_01: or something like that.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Anyway,
9:35
the point is that the general reporting on the Venezuela drug
9:39
situation is that
9:41
SPEAKER_01: they traffic a lot of cocaine to Europe.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: And the Trump administration,
9:47
SPEAKER_01: among many,
9:48
SPEAKER_01: many,
9:48
SPEAKER_01: many other things that's going on here,
9:50
like to characterize this as an effort to get fentanyl deaths
9:55
in the United States
9:56
SPEAKER_01: underway.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like a complete...
10:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, like misidentification of the issue.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: And then,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
10:07
the other thing that was happening while this scandal was
10:10
bubbling up is that the
10:12
Trump administration seemed to be getting increasingly serious
10:16
about like a real
10:18
SPEAKER_01: push for regime change in Venezuela.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Like,
10:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:23
SPEAKER_01: a month ago,
10:24
SPEAKER_01: I would have been inclined to say,
10:27
SPEAKER_01: look,
10:28
SPEAKER_01: like part of the problem here is that like this whole war is fake.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: But it was starting to seem like,
10:34
SPEAKER_01: no,
10:34
SPEAKER_01: like there was going to be like a really like a real war,
10:39
SPEAKER_01: which now seems less true than it did a few days ago.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Like maybe Trump was bluffing.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe the heat from all this is making it unsustainable.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Well,
10:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
10:50
because another story that came out was like they had serious
10:53
talks with Maduro
10:54
SPEAKER_01: about Maduro resigning.
10:57
And he said,
10:58
like,
10:58
he might be willing to step aside if like various conditions
11:02
were met.
11:03
And the Trump administration was like,
11:04
no,
11:05
like those that you you're asking for too much.
11:10
But then but but that made it sound at least a little bit like
11:14
they were just
11:14
SPEAKER_01: trying to kind of like bluff Maduro into resigning.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: And maybe don't plan to invade, but maybe they do.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like 20 percent of American naval forces,
11:25
SPEAKER_01: I believe,
11:25
SPEAKER_01: are like currently off the coast of Venezuela,
11:28
including the Gerald Ford and its whole attached carrier strike
11:33
group and one of
11:34
SPEAKER_01: the Marine amphibious assaults.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: uh, components.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: So like the,
11:40
SPEAKER_01: the pieces are in place for like a real pop war,
11:45
SPEAKER_01: like,
11:45
SPEAKER_01: like a really real war with Venezuela.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Like this is the, the crown jewels of American naval combat forces.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Remember when deployed on this mission, which is the fake, like, uh, um,
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Center for American whatever,
12:00
SPEAKER_00: like all the people trying to intellectualize Trumpism were like,
12:04
SPEAKER_00: no,
12:04
SPEAKER_00: no,
12:04
SPEAKER_00: no.
12:05
Like all this like opposition to supporting Ukraine is because
12:10
we really need to
12:11
SPEAKER_00: pivot to Asia and make sure that we're not asleep at the switch.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: And what do they say?
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, I didn't like that.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the new national security strategy also came out this week.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
12:27
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of stuff in the NSS,
12:29
just a lot of like rhetoric about Europe and immigration and
12:33
stuff like that.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: But like the thrust of it is that the United States should,
12:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:40
SPEAKER_01: retreat from the world and,
12:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:43
do spheres of influence in which all of our focus is going to
12:48
be on the Western
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Hemisphere.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And we are going to leave the
12:53
not just Ukraine,
12:54
but like Europe writ large to the Russians who are in an
12:58
alliance with China.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: And it was...
13:03
SPEAKER_01: It was quite mealy-mouthed on Asia issues as well.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: It was not like a pivot to Asia thing.
13:09
And then Trump followed that up by announcing that he's going
13:12
to end export
13:13
SPEAKER_01: controls on advanced AI chips to China so that,
13:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:19
SPEAKER_01: he can help pump Nvidia stock up.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: And I saw a lot of people, including...
13:26
SPEAKER_01: You know,
13:26
SPEAKER_01: conservative AI policy people all saying,
13:29
SPEAKER_01: like,
13:29
SPEAKER_01: this is going to be a disaster,
13:31
SPEAKER_01: that there's like three things you need for AI,
13:34
SPEAKER_01: right?
13:34
SPEAKER_01: You need chips, you need people, and you need electricity.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: And China has way more electricity than we do.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: We like to think our people are better, but they've got more people.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: They've got more, you know, machine learning PhDs than we do.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: It's a bigger country.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: But we have the best chips.
13:53
And that was like the basis of America's strategic lead in
13:57
artificial intelligence
13:58
SPEAKER_01: development that the Trump administration has been talking about a lot.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: And they have their AI action plan and like all these different things.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: But they just...
14:07
SPEAKER_01: threw away the biggest source of American advantage,
14:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:13
SPEAKER_01: maybe for bribes,
14:14
SPEAKER_01: maybe for soybeans,
14:17
SPEAKER_01: maybe for a short term stock market boost.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we don't we don't know yet.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: So,
14:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
14:23
this is all a little bit far afield from giving no quarters
14:28
orders in the Caribbean
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Sea.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: But like, I think it's all of a piece of like,
14:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
14:35
like the Trump administration just aligning the United States
14:41
as like one of the
14:42
SPEAKER_01: three,
14:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:43
SPEAKER_01: like bad guy,
14:44
SPEAKER_01: predatory bad guy powers of the world.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: And we're going to steal Venezuela's oil.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Like Scott Besant was on television saying,
14:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:55
SPEAKER_01: gas prices are down,
14:56
SPEAKER_01: which is true,
14:57
SPEAKER_01: trying to address cost of living concerns.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: And like,
15:00
SPEAKER_01: if there's a regime change in Venezuela,
15:02
SPEAKER_01: then you're really going to see something happen.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
15:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, man.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
15:08
SPEAKER_00: this used to be the kind of thing that administrations,
15:11
SPEAKER_00: like,
15:11
SPEAKER_00: left to the CIA to do quietly.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
15:16
SPEAKER_00: but so before we get to the Democrats who,
15:18
SPEAKER_00: like,
15:18
SPEAKER_00: increased the salience of this issue before we knew the details,
15:24
SPEAKER_00: is that if the Trump administration says,
15:29
SPEAKER_00: okay,
15:29
SPEAKER_00: we're going to start blowing up boats in the Caribbean—
15:33
SPEAKER_00: And we're going to say, at least, that they're drug smuggling boats.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there is some intelligence.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: But then they do, and there are people who survive.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: And then instead of arresting and interrogating them,
15:49
SPEAKER_00: they repatriate them to their home countries.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: One interpretation of that is that they don't actually have the evidence.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: They really are just terrorizing people.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: voters,
16:05
SPEAKER_00: poor workers in,
16:07
SPEAKER_00: in,
16:08
SPEAKER_00: in Northern South America for no reason or for no,
16:12
SPEAKER_00: no valid reason,
16:13
SPEAKER_00: right?
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Like no reason that they could actually articulate and defend in court.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Is there,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: is there a more,
16:21
is it possible that since this is all happening without any
16:24
kind of congressional
16:25
SPEAKER_00: authorization,
16:26
without any kind of criminal investigation as near as we can
16:29
tell that they don't
16:32
SPEAKER_00: want to,
16:36
SPEAKER_00: elevate this,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: like,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: get this into a courtroom anywhere because then they would have to,
16:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:44
SPEAKER_00: address the question of whether,
16:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:47
SPEAKER_00: whether the evidence is there that these are actual drug smugglers,
16:51
SPEAKER_00: that this is not a valid or legitimate way to...
16:56
SPEAKER_00: fight the importation of drugs.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's evidence and then there's evidence.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Like I,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: the other day I observed in an alley near my house,
17:07
SPEAKER_01: a parked car on a cold,
17:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:10
SPEAKER_01: wintry day.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
17:12
and its window was rolled down and somebody walked up to the
17:16
car and had some kind
17:17
of conversation and something was handed by the guy to the
17:23
driver of the car and
17:25
SPEAKER_01: And then he went to the backseat of the car,
17:28
SPEAKER_01: that window rolled down,
17:29
SPEAKER_01: and something was handed to him through the window.
17:32
Now,
17:34
my inference as a man of the world is that this was some kind
17:39
of a drug deal.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how good my evidence for that is, exactly.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: I didn't see any drugs.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: I didn't even see any money.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: It was dark.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't clear to me what was going on.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: That's just what it seemed like was happening.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Well,
17:55
SPEAKER_00: okay,
17:55
SPEAKER_00: but...
17:56
SPEAKER_00: You can't...
17:59
SPEAKER_00: I am getting at this question of whether,
18:00
SPEAKER_00: like,
18:01
SPEAKER_00: they don't want anybody withstanding,
18:03
SPEAKER_00: essentially,
18:04
SPEAKER_00: to be able to get into the guts of this program of boat exploding,
18:10
SPEAKER_00: right?
18:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Like,
18:13
it is possible that they actually have reasonably decent
18:15
evidence that these boats
18:17
SPEAKER_00: are carrying drugs to somewhere,
18:20
SPEAKER_00: but that if they...
18:22
SPEAKER_00: create a defendant out of a survivor,
18:25
then the whole thing can be exposed in a way where they want to
18:28
keep blowing up
18:29
SPEAKER_00: boats.
18:29
So they,
18:30
it's,
18:30
it's better for them to just send the dude back to Ecuador.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: But it poses so many questions because like,
18:38
SPEAKER_01: you can't just,
18:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
18:41
like the cops don't use helicopters to try to find drug dealers
18:47
and then blow them
18:48
SPEAKER_01: up with missiles.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they just don't like that's not a drug, you know.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Now,
18:54
SPEAKER_01: in a war,
18:55
SPEAKER_01: like,
18:55
SPEAKER_01: of course,
18:56
we do use aerial surveillance and try to identify enemy
19:00
combatants and blow them up
19:02
SPEAKER_01: with missiles.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: But like, is there a war with Venezuela, like authorized by who?
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Like what?
19:09
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
19:10
SPEAKER_01: So they're.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: You know,
19:15
there have been forever and ever and ever questions about the
19:19
War Powers Act and
19:21
SPEAKER_01: its reality and its enforceability and what it all amounts to.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: There was,
19:26
SPEAKER_01: I think during the Obama administration,
19:30
it became quite salient that the broad wording of what we at
19:36
the time understood to
19:38
SPEAKER_01: be an authorization for the use of military force in Afghanistan was,
19:43
That the way it was written was quite elastic and that like an
19:48
administration that
19:49
wasn't the administration that asked for that AUMF was citing
19:55
it as the legal
19:56
authority for military actions all around the world that had a
20:00
totally different
20:01
SPEAKER_01: tactical basis,
20:02
SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
20:02
SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
20:03
SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: I would say that Congress chose to accept that.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
20:09
Like it wasn't he wasn't like a genuinely contested point
20:13
between the Obama
20:14
SPEAKER_01: administration and Congress,
20:16
which was mostly in Republican hands at the time and had like
20:20
like John Boehner and
20:21
Paul Ryan were capable of articulating objections to Obama
20:26
administration policies
20:27
SPEAKER_01: when they had them.
20:28
And they just weren't objecting right to this sort of very
20:31
elastic AOMF concept.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: That became more controversial over time,
20:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:37
when there were moves in Congress to restrict it and sort of
20:41
walk it back,
20:41
SPEAKER_01: so on and so forth.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: But there's just nothing here in Venezuela.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: There's no fig leaf.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: There's no.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, there's there's no there's no war against Venezuela.
20:52
You know,
20:53
they just decided one day to start referring to drug smugglers
20:58
as narco terrorists.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: But like, that's not a thing.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
21:03
SPEAKER_01: And so what they say,
21:05
SPEAKER_01: if you if you read the legal documentation,
21:09
SPEAKER_01: the claim that they are making is that.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: The drug smuggling is a fundraising ploy.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: To like support this Venezuelan terrorist organization.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: Right?
21:27
Like,
21:28
that's the legal argument that they're making about
21:31
narco-terrorism.
21:32
That it's like,
21:33
if Osama bin Laden,
21:35
like,
21:35
did a heroin deal,
21:37
like,
21:37
it's still Al-Qaeda,
21:39
right?
21:39
SPEAKER_01: That's like an Al-Qaeda fundraising effort, not a drug deal.
21:45
And so,
21:48
if you go even further back,
21:50
like,
21:50
one of the first things the administration did
21:53
SPEAKER_01: Was it said that it was going to use the what's it called?
21:57
SPEAKER_01: The Enemy Aliens Act.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Alien Enemies Act.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: Alien Enemies Act from the 18th century.
22:01
And it was going to invoke that legal authority to deport
22:05
Venezuelans on some kind
22:07
SPEAKER_01: of like super express track.
22:10
And so their argument that they offered at that time was that
22:14
Venezuelans who had
22:15
SPEAKER_01: entered the United States either,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:18
irregularly at the border or through the Biden CNVH program
22:24
were affiliated with
22:25
SPEAKER_01: the Trujillo-Aragua gang,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: which is at least true of some of them,
22:29
and that the Trujillo-Aragua gang was like a military combatant
22:35
controlled by the
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Venezuelan government.
22:38
And that's why the Alien Enemy Act applied to this immigration
22:42
enforcement thing.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: I think everybody reacted to that at the time as like, this is a pretext.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Just like Stephen Miller doesn't like immigration.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: So he is reaching for maximal legal authorities.
22:57
So they've constructed this like cock and bull story about a
23:00
Venezuelan invasion.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: But it's like enough stuff has piled up that I that now feels like.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like the wrong lens of the telescope, right?
23:13
SPEAKER_01: That like.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: There actually are people in the administration,
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Marco Rubio,
23:20
SPEAKER_01: the Venezuelan opposition leader has apparently been.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: Selling Trump on this, that like.
23:30
Venezuela is organizing terrorist attacks on the United States
23:36
via immigration and
23:38
SPEAKER_01: drug smuggling.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:39
And that like this is I don't want to say it's not pretextual
23:42
because it's still
23:43
SPEAKER_01: sort of pretextual,
23:44
but that like it's not just an effort to like gin up some legal
23:48
argument about
23:49
SPEAKER_01: immigration.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: It's like a real argument to gin up a war.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: like a, like a, a for real war.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I don't know.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that doesn't, that doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: And it,
24:02
SPEAKER_01: it seems like cooler today than,
24:05
SPEAKER_01: than when you left town,
24:07
SPEAKER_01: like when you left town,
24:08
SPEAKER_01: they were like,
24:09
SPEAKER_01: Trump was ordering Venezuelan airspace clothes.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: And like, I thought the Marines might land while you were on vacation.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: And then that didn't happen.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: And, uh, like I, I, I was monitoring the flight path on the plane.
24:21
Because I didn't know which geodesic it would take or whatever,
24:24
you know.
24:24
And it turns out the path from Houston to Chile does not go
24:31
anywhere particularly
24:32
SPEAKER_00: close to Venezuela.
24:34
You cross over Central America and then you're over the Pacific
24:37
on the Pacific
24:37
SPEAKER_00: coast of South America for most of the flight.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, but, uh, yeah, I landed in like, uh, the, the next day or whatever.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Trump's like, consider Venezuelan airspace closed.
24:47
I'm like,
24:47
oh,
24:47
this,
24:48
there might,
24:49
a war might break out on this continent while I'm down here.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: And then it didn't, um, which is good.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Um,
24:54
SPEAKER_00: one way to look at this is that,
24:58
SPEAKER_00: um,
24:59
there's some like larger administration strategy at play here
25:02
that links alien
25:03
SPEAKER_00: enemies act deportations with this,
25:05
SPEAKER_00: um,
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Boat strike policy with this maybe regime change policy.
25:09
But it also seems like it might just be like you got Stephen
25:12
Miller and he's got this agenda.
25:15
And then you got somebody like Marco Rubio has got a different,
25:18
more neocon like agenda.
25:19
And if you're going to create harmony within this fractious
25:23
team that Trump has assembled.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: you need to figure out a way to mush those two things together.
25:29
And so Stephen Miller gets his deportation to the torture
25:34
prison policy and Marco
25:35
SPEAKER_00: Rubio gets his maybe depose Maduro policy.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: And they actually don't have much to do with one another,
25:43
SPEAKER_00: except that Stephen Miller's happy,
25:45
SPEAKER_00: Marco Rubio's happy,
25:48
SPEAKER_00: there's less leaking,
25:49
except it just hasn't worked out that way because they botched
25:51
the implementation
25:52
SPEAKER_00: in some sense.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I mean, you know, it's all... I mean, who knows, right?
25:58
But I mean,
25:59
it seems like people...
26:00
You know,
26:04
people in the Venezuelan emigre community...
26:08
I mean,
26:10
I've had to sympathize with Venezuelan opposition leaders,
26:13
to be clear.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: The Maduro regime is not good.
26:18
I would also want to try to get the president of the United
26:20
States to help me
26:21
overthrow my country's oppressive government and install me in
26:24
power if I were in
26:26
SPEAKER_01: their shoes.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: But it's a real kind of,
26:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:30
SPEAKER_01: if you remember not so much the lead up to the Iraq war,
26:34
but the retrospectives on the lead up to the Iraq war is like
26:38
it turns out that
26:39
Iraqi emigre figures were feeding a lot of BS to Dick Cheney
26:47
and Paul Wolfowitz.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Not per se to dupe Cheney and Wolfowitz,
26:52
SPEAKER_01: but to help Cheney and Wolfowitz dupe the president,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:58
and other just like random political advisors in the
27:00
administration who probably
27:01
SPEAKER_01: didn't have like super strong feelings on the underlying issues.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:06
And so it's like something akin to that seems to be happening
27:11
here where Rubio,
27:13
SPEAKER_01: on like broad ideological grounds,
27:15
SPEAKER_01: sympathizes with this regime change in Venezuela agenda.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: He, you know.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: seems like he's been fighting the good fight on Russia-Ukraine policy,
27:28
SPEAKER_01: but losing that fight pretty steadily to Vance and,
27:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:33
SPEAKER_01: other just isolationist type people there.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: And that,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: he is,
27:40
SPEAKER_01: at least to some extent,
27:41
like working with Venezuelan opposition figures to kind of
27:46
jujitsu some of these
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Stephen Miller concepts into like,
27:52
SPEAKER_01: You know,
27:52
SPEAKER_01: like,
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Mr.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: President,
27:54
SPEAKER_01: you remember that invading army from Venezuela that,
27:56
SPEAKER_01: like,
27:57
SPEAKER_01: we've referenced in all of our legal filings?
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we should take out the guy who sent that army, right?
28:03
SPEAKER_01: And then it's like,
28:04
is Miller or whoever else is supposed to be a voice of caution
28:08
in this enterprise
28:09
SPEAKER_01: going to be like,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: actually,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Mr.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: President,
28:11
SPEAKER_01: that was bullshit?
28:12
SPEAKER_01: That like we just cooked up.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: Don't go to war when it has 30 percent approval.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's like but like that's a hard argument.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, if you think about office politics.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: It's like a little bit.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: They're like backed in by their own nonsense here,
28:30
SPEAKER_01: unless somebody wants to admit that the whole thing is bullshit.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: And like there's no, you know, even the narco terrorists.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: It's like.
28:40
It's incredibly cynical to just once every few weeks blow up a
28:44
boat that like
28:46
SPEAKER_01: probably has drugs on it,
28:47
SPEAKER_01: but maybe doesn't.
28:49
And like release that video on social media to be like,
28:52
we're taking on drugs.
28:55
But I get it as a cynical politics,
28:59
like something that I think has started to emerge,
29:02
um,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: in some of the academic literature and stuff is that,
29:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: the opioid crisis,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: um,
29:11
the overdose surge really made a substantial political impact
29:15
on people in the most
29:16
SPEAKER_01: impacted communities.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: And those voters, um,
29:22
SPEAKER_01: really not into, like, harm reduction solutions.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, they want to get tough, get tough on drugs.
29:30
But there's a lot of trade-offs in terms of,
29:33
like,
29:34
arresting people in heavily—like—
29:38
arresting drug addict because it's like you're mad that like
29:42
your cousin's wife got
29:44
SPEAKER_01: hooked on fentanyl.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: But like, do you want her to go to jail?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Do you not?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like you want to like externalize blame.
29:52
And so like this stuff about like in Simon Bazelon's deciding
29:57
to win report,
29:58
like actually the most popular Trump policy was designating
30:05
drug cartels as
30:06
SPEAKER_01: terrorist organizations.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Like something totally random,
30:09
like not involved in Democratic Party factional debates that
30:12
just seems like,
30:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:14
SPEAKER_01: like chum for idiots.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Like that was really high.
30:19
So it's like if you can destroy some boats and like put that on
30:22
social media,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: maybe it's good politics.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't.
30:26
I don't actually think that it tracks because I can see why
30:29
this is something that
30:31
would be sensitive to question wording and and why you could
30:35
construct a theory
30:35
SPEAKER_00: about why it might be.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: popular or not terribly unpopular.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: But in practice, they have a video of this double tap strike.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: And they're not releasing it.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, no, but that's what I'm saying.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Like,
30:49
SPEAKER_01: this is where it's all gone awry,
30:52
is that evidently they don't want anybody to be captured and
30:59
put on trial.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: And like, I don't know why they don't want that.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: That's the nature of this.
31:04
But they think that whatever would emerge out of a legal
31:08
proceeding would be bad for them.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: So they have put this this no quarter order out.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know what the public does or doesn't think about this,
31:22
but like that is the most bright line violation of the laws of
31:28
war that is
31:30
SPEAKER_01: imaginable.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: It's all over the Geneva Convention.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to accept surrender.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: You absolutely cannot issue these kind of no survivors orders.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: And like specifically in the Defense Department's laws of war manual,
31:49
SPEAKER_01: it is fucking long and goes through all kinds of things.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: One of the things they discuss is like,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: what are your responsibilities if you are given a clearly illegal order?
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And,
32:02
SPEAKER_01: like,
32:03
their example of a clearly illegal order is being ordered to
32:07
fire on shipwrecked
32:08
SPEAKER_01: sailors.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I don't know, right?
32:13
SPEAKER_01: But, like, it's clearly a crisis in the ranks, right?
32:19
SPEAKER_01: And, like, this is why the Seditious Six video...
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Like that.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: What they said at the time was like, we're getting questions from people.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, like, I don't know.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: So like the when I left a week ago, more than a week ago.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: The you know,
32:40
the story of the Seditious Six was that they issued they put
32:43
out this video kind of
32:44
SPEAKER_00: sui sponte.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Like it's,
32:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:48
anyone who knows Donald Trump and has been watching these boat
32:51
attacks and so on,
32:53
like kind of understands what's up because there's he is a
32:57
faithless leader who is
32:59
SPEAKER_00: like hungry to issue illegal orders to the military.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: He wants the military to be.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: you know, part of his political strike force, essentially.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: And so,
33:10
SPEAKER_00: like,
33:10
it wasn't a mystery to me why some people would want this kind
33:14
of pushback out
33:15
SPEAKER_00: there.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: And Trump got really mad about it.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: And they even,
33:21
SPEAKER_00: like,
33:22
SPEAKER_00: began the process of,
33:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
33:26
SPEAKER_00: considering whether to recall to active duty Mark Kelly,
33:30
SPEAKER_00: to court-martial him for having participated in this video.
33:34
But then Mark Kelly stood his ground and – but like that was
33:38
about it,
33:39
right?
33:40
SPEAKER_00: Like when they were asked, are you aware of specific illegal orders?
33:44
They didn't say,
33:45
we think all of these boat strike orders are illegal,
33:47
like full stop,
33:49
which –
33:50
SPEAKER_00: I feel like they could have said, but they didn't.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: They were like, we just, you know, like we, we, we know this guy.
33:57
Like we remember when he wanted to shoot protesters in the legs
34:01
in,
34:02
in his first term.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: And,
34:03
SPEAKER_00: and like people like now that he's more unrestrained,
34:06
people in the military need to be prepared for this to become a
34:08
real live issue.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: They didn't say we're hearing about some stuff that isn't public.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: And then that seems to quiet down for a little bit.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Like Mark Kelly goes on some, like goes on a fundraising tour.
34:21
And I think he's on Jimmy Fallon or Jimmy Kimmel or one of the
34:24
late night shows.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And then this news breaks and it kind of raises the question,
34:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
34:31
SPEAKER_00: did they,
34:31
were they tipped off or if not tipped off to specific facts
34:39
that were then
34:40
SPEAKER_00: validated by,
34:41
SPEAKER_00: by the video?
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:43
To murmurings that arose from this incident that reached them
34:47
in the form of
34:48
SPEAKER_00: something like,
34:49
SPEAKER_00: hey,
34:49
SPEAKER_00: we're worried about some orders that we're getting,
34:52
but these six members of Congress didn't actually know
34:56
specifically why people were
34:58
SPEAKER_00: reaching out to them about this.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: In any case, it it doesn't seem like it was pure coincidence.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:05
And it puts their decision to do this in a different and I
35:09
think even more flattering light.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: Like like it really was like setting a trap for Trump,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: not just in that he would go after a war hero like Mark Kelly,
35:18
SPEAKER_00: raise the profile of a,
35:20
SPEAKER_00: you know.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: a very popular Democrat from a very purple state,
35:25
SPEAKER_00: but that they had reason to suspect that he would overreact,
35:33
SPEAKER_00: claim that all of his orders were legal,
35:35
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
35:35
and then the truth of the matter would come out about this
35:39
double tap strike,
35:40
SPEAKER_00: which doesn't even have a patina of legality behind it.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And now he's caught lying and the heat is really on him to...
35:50
SPEAKER_00: release more facts to stop committing these war crimes.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I, I don't know.
35:56
I feel like the,
35:57
I feel like the seditious sticks,
35:58
their sock went up because of all this.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Um,
36:02
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
36:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
36:05
SPEAKER_01: my question about it all though is like,
36:10
SPEAKER_02: what's the actual end game here?
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, I mean,
36:22
SPEAKER_01: You know,
36:22
this is not I remember I was I was getting tacos with my wife
36:29
and our son and
36:30
SPEAKER_01: another little kid who he was friends with.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: And this kid's parent, you know, we're all friends, family friends.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: And we were all sitting around and my phone started buzzing.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: And it was like President Trump fired FBI Director Comey,
36:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:44
SPEAKER_01: to like put a squelch to this Russia investigation.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, look, I was not a naive person back then.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't like, it's all over for Trump.
36:53
But the nature of Trump's relationship with congressional
36:56
Republicans was very
36:58
SPEAKER_01: unknown and uncertain at that time.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: And it seemed like there was a real public policy disagreement about the
37:07
U.S.-Russia relationship between Trump and lots of people in
37:10
Congress that James
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Comey was understood to be a Republican in good standing.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: you know, who was being fired, weirdly.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: And it truly seemed like a universe of possibilities was open.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: Like,
37:21
SPEAKER_01: this was,
37:22
SPEAKER_01: like,
37:24
SPEAKER_01: not,
37:24
SPEAKER_01: like,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: second order,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: a big story,
37:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
37:27
SPEAKER_01: or,
37:27
SPEAKER_01: like,
37:27
SPEAKER_01: but,
37:28
SPEAKER_01: like,
37:28
SPEAKER_01: it was a big story.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, I didn't know what was going to happen in American politics.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: Here, it's like, I don't know.
37:37
Like,
37:38
Trump's not going to be impeached and removed from office over
37:40
this.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: They may or may not tamp down
37:47
SPEAKER_01: strikes on Venezuelan boats.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: They also might invade Venezuela.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: Like,
37:50
SPEAKER_01: it's just not...
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Well,
37:51
SPEAKER_00: but I actually think that,
37:52
SPEAKER_00: like,
37:53
SPEAKER_00: okay,
37:53
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
37:53
SPEAKER_00: like,
37:54
SPEAKER_00: the future's unpredictable,
37:55
SPEAKER_00: but I think that...
37:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
37:56
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
37:56
SPEAKER_00: yeah.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: I think that this made war with Venezuela less likely.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: I think it opened up the real possibility that Hegseth gets...
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Pete Hegseth gets pushed out of office.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I think that they have already...
38:10
The way the administration has handled this has already sown
38:13
dissension in the
38:15
SPEAKER_00: senior ranks of the military,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: which I view to be a good thing in this country.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: given what Trump would like to happen with the military,
38:23
where they essentially follow him into establishing a
38:29
Pinochet-like dictatorial
38:31
SPEAKER_00: regime in the US,
38:34
SPEAKER_00: the fact that he's throwing this other admiral under the bus,
38:38
SPEAKER_00: they're trying to muzzle the...
38:41
SPEAKER_00: What's his name?
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Admiral Halsey?
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Halsey, yeah.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: Trying to muzzle him...
38:49
SPEAKER_00: that is all to the good already.
38:51
It's better than a situation where they said nothing and either
38:56
we never learned
38:57
SPEAKER_00: about this or we learned about it outside of a
39:01
ongoing conversation about is trump issuing illegal orders
39:05
what's the right
39:06
response from service members if they're given illegal orders
39:10
and so on like it
39:11
it's not you know roger wicker who's chairman of the relevant
39:15
committee in the
39:15
senate wasn't like leaping to trump's defense after he saw this
39:19
video right like
39:19
tom cotton who's one of the most um like vampire fanged members
39:26
of the republican
39:27
SPEAKER_00: senate conference was like that was awesome i liked it but
39:32
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like the mainstream guys, right?
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Like the old hands.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: And it's definitely not Rand Paul.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, there are Republicans who are unhappy about this.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think Democrats are basically united by it.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: And it makes me think that, like...
39:47
SPEAKER_00: It's already served a good purpose.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: And if Trump doesn't back down in some way,
39:53
if he proceeds to try to do ground strikes within Venezuela or
39:58
send an invading
39:59
SPEAKER_00: force in or whatever,
40:00
that it's not going to be a situation where Democrats are kind
40:04
of like caught by
40:05
SPEAKER_00: surprise,
40:06
SPEAKER_00: don't know what to do,
40:06
SPEAKER_00: don't know how to oppose.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Mark Kelly et al.
40:11
helped the party find firm footing on something that was very
40:16
combustible.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: So I just think that they did the right thing,
40:20
SPEAKER_00: given what I imagine was somewhat vague information coming to them,
40:24
SPEAKER_00: that there really were illegal orders being given.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's not...
40:31
The future doesn't seem as unsettled as it did in 2017 when
40:34
Trump fired Comey.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: But like if I were Pete Hegseth, I'd be pretty nervous right now.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, he's not.
40:44
I mean,
40:45
look,
40:47
he seems on shaky ground on certain respects,
40:51
but I guess like.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: Relative to where we were, say, a week ago.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Like.
41:00
The Trump administration seems to have intensified its attacks
41:06
on Europe and on NATO.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: And now it's just like doing this chip
41:13
SPEAKER_01: sell out.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: So I'm now, I, I don't know.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
41:16
SPEAKER_01: I keep like having my finger in the wind and it's like,
41:18
SPEAKER_01: what's like,
41:18
SPEAKER_01: what's the balance of considerations here?
41:21
Like are the craziest people in this operation being like more
41:25
constrained or less constrained?
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't know, you know, it's, it's hard to say.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, did you take a break and talk about, talk about some elections?
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: And, and like about how, um,
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Because that is where it all comes down, ultimately.
41:43
It's like if there's blowback in elections that happen,
41:49
you know,
41:50
like that changes things.
41:52
Unless Trump does double tap strikes on Democrats running for
41:55
office in the midterm.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
41:57
SPEAKER_00: if you want to hear that part of the conversation,
42:01
SPEAKER_00: go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.