Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Guest Podcast: How To Email Influencers, Grow A Podcast, Sell, And Be Happy (Authentic AF)

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Guest Podcast: How To Email Influencers, Grow A Podcast, Sell, And Be Happy (Authentic AF) · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  amazing gummies. Today you're going to hear me on the authentic as F podcast with Sunyee.
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  Make sure you subscribe on YouTube or go listen wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:26
  The subject line. It's worked in B2B sales. It's working in guests on my show. Probably the one
• 1:31
  subject line that gets the most open rates of any subject line I've used and it's
• 1:36
  and that usually gets between a 35 to 40% open rate and then in the actual body of the email
• 1:41
  you're telling them that they're sort of like three versions of sales people. So you have people
• 1:46
  that don't have their numbers are fired, comfortable letting numbers and they slack and people
• 1:49
  that hit their numbers in like Q1 and then they're still like just head all to the metal for the next
• 1:53
  nine months and those are the ones that just absolutely kill it. How can I call my podcast like
• 1:57
  what did you do? You can do everything and what do I mean by that? Okay so there's not a single
• 2:03
  marketing thing that you would do for a company that you couldn't do for a podcast. So first of all
• 2:08
  in any business the most expensive customer is a new customer, the cheapest customer is a
• 2:13
  returning customer. When people they're just great marketers and they have shitty product it's
• 2:17
  because they don't feel like they can attract them first in the second time which is no way to build
• 2:21
  it just exists in this course creator world, nowhere else would a business survive only selling
• 2:26
  to a customer once. How can I get famous guests on my podcast like you, especially like if I'm
• 2:37
  just starting out? I think if you try and if you start to build a podcast and you want to get the
• 2:46
  most famous guests on your show and I'm not even saying that that's what you should be focusing
• 2:51
  on when you're starting a podcast but say that's really what you want to accomplish.
• 2:56
  Getting guests on a podcast is a sales pitch at the end of the day. So you have to understand
• 3:03
  when you're selling anything to anyone and what you're selling when you're asking somebody to come
• 3:08
  onto your podcast is you're selling the opportunity for them to tap into your audience but you may not
• 3:14
  have a large one and the ask is their time and their attention and their energy from the thousands
• 3:19
  of other podcasts it could be out there. So what I did was two things. First of all I knew how to
• 3:29
  find the the decision makers email which I knew from an enterprise sales background so I know
• 3:34
  to find the person's email. Now it's very easy you can just DM them but email I find especially when
• 3:40
  you're starting out you don't have a following of your own emails are a great way to get in touch
• 3:44
  because a lot of the social platforms if you DM a big celebrity you're going to get relegated to
• 3:49
  the spam inbox you're going to get relegated to the not their general main inbox so they may not
• 3:55
  even see your pitch. So you find their email address and you have to think of what is meaningful
• 4:01
  for them that's going to entice them to get onto your show. The subject line that I use that
• 4:07
  I've used when I don't have other past famous guests is a subject line that's worked in B2B sales
• 4:14
  it's worked in it's working in guess on my show I've never really used it for B2C but I'm assuming
• 4:20
  you could work there because it's probably the one subject line that gets the most open rates
• 4:25
  of any subject line I've used and it's my first name last name and then my cell phone number
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  and that usually gets between a 35 to 40% open rate and then once you get the open rate
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  this is assuming that you have no other past guest because you have other big names
• 4:40
  you can also include them in the show notes so that there's some social proof that your show's
• 4:44
  legitimate but if you just need an open rate and you have no other proof points that you've
• 4:47
  done anything cool that would be a great place to start and then in the actual body of the email
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  you're telling them that I'm going to do it on zoom so I'm not taking up too much of your time
• 4:58
  we're going to keep it to maybe 30 to 45 minutes I'm going to chop up a whole bunch of clips so that
• 5:02
  I'm going to give them to you so that you can use them on your social so I'm almost acting
• 5:06
  I'm acting like an outsourced video editing agency for your own social and we're going to talk
• 5:12
  about the things that are most important to you on this show and then it's going to go out to my
• 5:16
  okay maybe maybe exaggerate a tiny tiny little bit about about the audience that you have you can
• 5:21
  try and pull some emails from there you're going to send it to a thousand emails we have
• 5:26
  you know a thousand listeners on this show you try and look at any sort of
• 5:30
  audience that you've built up to this point that will be beneficial to that person again so
• 5:37
  you have video assets for them you have a little bit of a built-in audience you make it as frictionless
• 5:43
  as possible and then the x factor that I found works very well for big names especially when
• 5:50
  you're first starting out is something called intent so when you're selling anything to anyone
• 5:55
  is something called intent what does intent mean it means that well they are actively seeking the
• 6:00
  thing that you are selling it's not like a nice to have it's a need to have and what does intent
• 6:06
  look like when somebody's getting on a podcast it means that they're launching something they're
• 6:10
  writing a book or they're launching their own podcast or there's something that they're they want
• 6:15
  to promote that your podcast can help them get that objective accomplished so when I first started
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  it I was on Amazon I was looking at newly released books and I was filtering by category and by
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  popularity and I was reaching out to people famous authors that were releasing a book in the next three
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  to six months because you know there's intent there they have to accomplish they have to get PR
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  they're already working with an agent so if you're hitting them up around the same time they're
• 6:44
  releasing a book and you do all the other stuff properly there's a really high likelihood that
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  they're going to come on your show because they're always they're already in the mindset of
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  I need to promote my new book I'm already paying somebody to promote a for me here's one other
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  30 to 45 minute zoom podcast amongst a sea of probably 20 to 30 podcasts that I'm doing so it's
• 7:04
  not going to be that disruptive to me I'm already doing a whole bunch of them that's how you can
• 7:10
  honestly with like a shadow of a doubt get big names on your show and you're first starting out
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  and then as your show grows and you get I mean that just becomes easier I mean
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  would you recommend yeah people to like kind of get a get a couple of big names first so that
• 7:24
  they can use that as a leverage to get other guests that was gonna be my next point yeah so it
• 7:29
  once you do this strategy you will get some big names and then you start to include those names
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  in the pitch and the subject line and the email copy going out it's just getting the ball rolling
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  getting that flywheel certain yes correct I mean for me what happened was when I started
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  I was so bad at asking questions
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  that I almost like wish that I kind of waited before I asked some because I already had
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  some relationship with big names but I wish I had like done a few like kind of throw away episodes
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  first you know you mentioned so you asked me right out of the gate how do you get big names on
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  your show and I gave you an answer I don't think that's always the smartest way to start a podcast
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  I do think you should get some reps in I think you should have very comfortable conversations with
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  people that you know or people even that are just very charismatic that you can you know just
• 8:27
  you there's some people that you just sit down with and right out of the gate you feel like
• 8:32
  your best friends I was listening to Patrick but David speak about when he started the PBD
• 8:38
  podcast not the original value tame and podcast but the PBD podcast I think one of his first episodes
• 8:44
  was if I'm not mistaken his barber who is just a super charismatic dude who we just wanted to shoot
• 8:50
  the shit with on his podcast now he had already had tons of podcasting and and and and hosting
• 8:57
  experience but the point is you don't have to aim for big names right away I think it's important
• 9:01
  for you to get comfortable just asking questions having conversation and once you put the reps in
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  then obviously those big names will be a lot less stressful I also did the same thing and I
• 9:09
  I pulled on Grant Cardone Guy Kawasaki Anthony Scaremochi way too early when I was way too nervous
• 9:17
  and the episode turned out okay and then we've done a guy Kawasaki we did another episode more recently
• 9:22
  so I mean you build relationships with these people they're gonna come back more than once it's not
• 9:26
  really the end of the world but yeah it's I think you should put a couple reps in before you start
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  I got in the beginning I got a little bit thrown off because like like you are really good at
• 9:37
  like just kind of talking but I noticed that not everybody is like even some famous people
• 9:43
  and yeah like they just give very short answers and I'm like I'll shed my not a question section
• 9:50
  you need to there is an art to an interview I mean I've always been I guess a little bit of a
• 9:56
  conversationalist I think I'm much better now six years of doing it as a job I think I'm much
• 10:03
  better now than when I started but if you look at Joe Rogan look at Joe Rogan when he started versus
• 10:09
  where he is now he's become a great conversation he was always he's always chatty but he's become
• 10:14
  very good at the art of conversation and the art of if I if you feel like the answers are short
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  then there's a Chris Voss hostage negotiation technique where you repeat the last couple words
• 10:30
  the person said with an upwards inflection and question and then they'll just go deeper you can
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  do stuff like that or you can just be very explicit and say please go deeper or explain more or
• 10:42
  why was that and people usually open up and there's also a little bit of a pre-framing at the
• 10:47
  beginning where I say especially if I've listened to their episodes before in the past and I
• 10:53
  find that they are very short with their answers I say listen this podcast is all about you
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  I can talk all day my audience isn't want to share me talk there's here for you please feel free
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  to like take some time answer the questions fully give some context tell some stories after the
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  audience loves and when you when you frame it like that when you're going into the conversation
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  right off the bat I think they feel a lot more comfortable spending time and just living in their
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  answers so yeah I have so many more questions up around podcasts then I want to dive deep but first
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  can't can we hear kind of your journey of like how did you go from like an employee to
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  an entrepreneur over where you are now so when I started my career I was an employee in sales
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  and I did very well in sales and I was in tech sales I was working for a large telecom in Canada
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  and then I moved to another company whereas leading sales and marketing and that company was
• 11:52
  acquired by private equity and I can talk about you know depends on what direction you want to
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  take this in but that was sort of my first version of entrepreneurship equity ownership exit event
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  and that was a light bulb moment for me because ever since I was very young I looked at the careers
• 12:08
  that my parents had and I understood that the safety and security and the pension that my parents
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  were fortunate enough to have was not a reality for me or for the majority of people so I had to figure
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  out another way I had to figure it another way because at the time I have a much different
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  view of retirement now but at the time I was like okay so how do I retire at 65 if nobody's
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  paying me a pension that means I have to have a lot of money saved up and in Canada where the
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  the marginal tax rate is over 50% okay so how much money do I have to make per year and I couldn't
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  see that in traditional nine to five so would you at this time well this has been a thought that
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  sort of evolved over my entire life this idea of I mean 18 19 20 but I just I did see me falling
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  the same path as my dad and my mom yeah not to cut you off but yeah just because like I thought
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  that was interesting because I heard just talk about this story before and like me and a lot of
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  people that I know yeah we don't think about that we don't think about when we're 60 we don't think
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  about retirement we don't think about I just I just feel like a lot of people don't think about
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  financial security at that much they just want to party it out right now or no I was like no I
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  because I've thought about this a lot and I think that what what created the most discord and stress
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  in my life was the fact that your childhood experiences if they're positive in mind were
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  are kind of what you want to aspire to achieving your own life and then I understood that if I
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  work the same amount as my parents did I would not have the same lifestyle so then that creates
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  this imbalance I'm like okay so the path that I enjoyed growing because I was wanted to have a
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  family I you know like American dream or Canadian whatever American dream white picket fence you
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  get it like detached home like the whole the whole American whatever the whole American dream and I
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  realized if I put in the same amount of hours as my parents did I wouldn't have that and that
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  was really stressful to me I don't know why I thought about it I think more people should think
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  about it I think more people should future prove themselves I think more people should think about
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  how much money do I have to have when I retire so if I do want to retire at 65 which a lot of
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  our parents and grandparents were able to do if I don't have this pension and to understand what a
• 14:28
  pension is because I think people that are younger probably don't even understand what like my dad
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  has he gets 70% of his five best years I think five best years until the day that he dies so for
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  easy math and make a hundred thousand dollars for five years over the course of your career you make
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  $70,000 per year after you retire until the day that you die you don't have to do anything so you
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  just have like that's that's true that's real passive income and you're just existing in making
• 14:51
  70 grand a year or if it's 200 or three it doesn't matter the 70% still applies that type of
• 14:57
  pension doesn't exist in private industry anymore it only exists in government and private
• 15:00
  industry used to offer it anyways that's a whole other conversation about pension and how they
• 15:05
  flip to RRSP and and and and all these different and all these different kinds of pensions and
• 15:12
  Canada at least obviously I have a 401k down here but yeah so basically if you do not future proof
• 15:18
  yourself you are either going to work till you die or if you find another way to make money
• 15:26
  and ironically on that path to find another way to make money you actually find out that
• 15:31
  you may not ever want to retire but the point is most people do not think that far ahead into
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  the future and God forbid people are going to turn 60 65 70 maybe their health isn't in the best
• 15:43
  condition whatever and they still have to work because they don't have enough money saved up
• 15:47
  that's like a horrible situation but it's going to happen more and more and more and more because
• 15:50
  fewer and fewer people have that safety net built that's very scary so I was just thinking about
• 15:56
  this at a young age and it and it really pushed it pushed me in different career trajectories and
• 16:01
  I think I would have if I thought that I was going to be safe and secure and I don't know
• 16:07
  I didn't know that I was just I was really curious about that because I do think that just that
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  mindset alone I think already kind of sets you up because so my my my career was supposed to be
• 16:25
  either so my dad was originally a cop and then he went into counter capitalism he worked for the
• 16:31
  government in Canada were for ceases and which is like Canadian security intelligence services
• 16:36
  is kind of like a mix of the FBI and the CIA all rolled into one organization so that was very
• 16:41
  safe and secure I could have gone down that path but I was also looking at law school because I
• 16:46
  didn't undergraduate in criminology and law so that was going to be the sort of the traditional path
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  but then I also saw I also saw people around me that were making tons of money in tech so I wasn't
• 16:56
  even thinking entrepreneur I was just thinking okay so how do I make a ton of money in tech
• 17:01
  climb the corporate ladder go sales and sales manager then director then VP and be pulling in you
• 17:07
  know half a million a million dollars a year plus stock options and just kill it in a career
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  in tech because you can never even make that kind of money in the government either you really
• 17:16
  um so yeah and that so you were kind of just yeah aiming to for like a high
• 17:24
  in calorie yes nine to five jobs yeah a very high a very elegant exceptionally high salary that's
• 17:30
  the first journey I was on and then that journey pushed me into a company that was doing roughly 10
• 17:36
  million dollars it was acquired by private equity and that was the the light bulb moment into
• 17:42
  oh wow this is interesting like I saw I saw the founder build this company from scratch
• 17:49
  I didn't see him I he started it far before I joined but the point is I saw the journey I knew
• 17:53
  the journey and I saw the multiple he got on the exit and I'm like oh what's next
• 17:57
  amount of money quick question yeah yeah how much of an impact do you do you think you had
• 18:04
  contributed to that growth and like can you actually feel it and the reason why I'm asking is
• 18:12
  I worked in a huge corporation where I didn't feel like I'm adding anything to the company yeah
• 18:18
  and I went to this small company where I did SEO there yeah and I can see that like the SEO I was
• 18:23
  doing was literally making the difference in millions of revenue that yeah I think that's so
• 18:32
  to answer your question yes I felt like I had a lot more impact on the outcome I mean I didn't
• 18:39
  have an equity position in that company so I didn't get a payout but I felt like and I saw it
• 18:45
  because we did a couple different things first of all it was it was basically the main product
• 18:52
  that they were selling was a hardware like it was like it was phone system and IT equipment
• 18:58
  but then we started to move into a VoIP so subscription revenue and then we started to add on
• 19:04
  service contracts for the hardware which was recurring high margin subscription product and then
• 19:10
  I saw how these numbers were not only affecting our revenue but now moving from one time
• 19:17
  sale into monthly recurring revenue sale and and the more of our business not 100% of it obviously
• 19:22
  more of our business is moving into an MRR model that was impacting the valuation that eventually
• 19:30
  was that's what the founder was talking about you is that the reason why you're like
• 19:36
  oh yes and do this for myself yes a thousand percent because and and also it's interesting because
• 19:42
  even and even even when you work for a smaller company you get exposed to every single business unit
• 19:51
  I mean when I work for large company I think I think Bell is fortune one thousand I can't remember
• 19:56
  I think they are I mean they have like tens of thousands of employees right billions of dollars in
• 20:01
  revenue when I work there they had an RFP team how nice would it be when you close an RFP
• 20:09
  to have like six people working on it for you and remember when I moved to the smaller company
• 20:17
  we closed an RFP and these RFPs range from you know $100,000 to $500,000 for some are a little
• 20:25
  bit larger but that was sort of the average size and like I think it was like my first week there
• 20:30
  and I'm like okay so who does it he's like bro you do it you you you write the 30 to 50 page RFP
• 20:38
  you get all the you get you got to go to the bank and get a certified check to guarantee that we
• 20:43
  can even bid on this RFP you got to get all the I mean you got to you got to do everything I mean
• 20:48
  every single bit of it you do and in my mind I'm like wow that's awesome I get so much experience
• 20:53
  but like how come I can't just do this myself and if I can close an RFP I mean that does a lot
• 20:58
  more complex city than just being able to write an RFP but you get the point like if I could find
• 21:02
  a product or service or whatever and I could cool if I can get a hundred thousand five hundred
• 21:07
  thousand dollar RFP I would immediately be making more than what I earn all year and I don't know
• 21:13
  it was just all these different signals that I think a lot of people should at some point not everyone
• 21:20
  but I think if we redefine entrepreneurship I think it would serve a lot of people much better than
• 21:28
  just I say just in air quotes there's nothing wrong with it but just working within a company
• 21:33
  because there's so many things you can learn there's so many ways that you can make money I don't think
• 21:37
  as an entrepreneur it really is exceptionally difficult to make a significantly significant more
• 21:44
  amount than what you'd earn in the job and we're not talking about building a hundred million dollar
• 21:48
  company we're just talking about building a lifestyle business that makes you 700 800 a million
• 21:55
  a million five a year which for most people maybe not Manhattan but for most people that's
• 22:02
  an insane amount of money so I think that you know we can redefine entrepreneurship and not yeah
• 22:08
  I also sorry like with this conversation is going I think of what I want to do is like as we go
• 22:13
  through your journey I want to ask you some specific questions like tactical questions yeah yeah
• 22:20
  so your background was in sales and one of the things I found was that like those rock star sales
• 22:25
  people like I really think that they can do anything like I honestly think that all of those people
• 22:31
  can start a business and feel successful entrepreneur because you can hire people to make stuff you can
• 22:37
  hire but but I feel like selling is kind of like the backbone of any any business and that that's
• 22:42
  where I see so many businesses fail I agree with that but I also see that so telecom sales I know
• 22:50
  some people from there and they're like very hardcore like they're you know they're like really kind
• 22:56
  of like top tier of the sales people really you I wouldn't know from that I would have thought like
• 23:02
  software I would have so telecom is very legacy yeah you have some for sure you have some rock star
• 23:08
  sales people but I would assume that a lot of the talent actually goes to SaaS companies because
• 23:13
  they have higher higher comp packages and I guess um yeah I guess like the time I'm talking about
• 23:21
  this is before SaaS these yeah selling to you online and things like that yeah yeah yeah but it
• 23:26
  had a very like this this that like Wall Street brokerage house feel to it like I had a one of my
• 23:32
  really close friends was one of them and but it also looked like there's like that top five to 10
• 23:39
  percent who were just killing they're just making so much money yeah and then the other 30 percent
• 23:45
  stuff so bad yeah I mean what separates like what do you think separates those
• 23:52
  those groups well within within a large organization I think there's always a pretty I mean
• 23:59
  Pareto's principle I think applies everywhere so for sure 20% of your of your sales force is
• 24:07
  going to deliver 80% of the results I mean from what I've seen there's I would say there's
• 24:16
  two people that stand out as as sort of top performers in the organization
• 24:24
  the first is just somebody who has been there for an exceptionally large amount of time and
• 24:29
  has built a book of business they are just they have deals that come in all the time that's not
• 24:34
  really the avatar that I would model though they just spent their whole career there so people trust
• 24:39
  them their customers trust them they keep reaching back out to them I mean the on the other end
• 24:45
  of the spectrum is somebody who is new to the organization hungry and like I mean it's not rocket
• 24:53
  science they just outwork everyone so they're not waiting for leads they prospecting their downtime
• 25:00
  if customers call after hours they're responding they answer emails in 30 minutes not two days
• 25:07
  I don't think it's magic I think that you are I think you're assuming that everyone is a lot
• 25:13
  better than they are I've I've I've experienced that the bottom 80% for lack of a better term
• 25:23
  it's just people that aren't that motivated to do the work I think that they're just very happy
• 25:28
  with how much money they're making and they're not really trying to make much more
• 25:32
  that's the people that kill it it's like I don't think it's rocket science it's if it's a volume
• 25:38
  game at the end of the day yes you have a great product yes you have to understand
• 25:43
  how to qualify or disqualify on a on a discovery call yes you have to tell these anecdotes and
• 25:49
  stories of similar customers customers with similar pain points when you do a demo that's tailored
• 25:54
  to the target customer you have to multi-thread get to figure out decision makers you know decision
• 25:58
  info you have to do all that stuff but at the end of the day if you just do that more you're
• 26:03
  going to have better results and I think and also also if you do it more you're also going to
• 26:10
  just intuitively get better at it and you're going to do all the things I just mentioned to a
• 26:14
  higher degree of proficiency I don't think it's anything else it's just people that are killing it
• 26:20
  I mean there's sort of like three versions of sales people there's people that don't hit their
• 26:24
  number that are fired there's people that hit their number and then when they hit their number in
• 26:27
  you know q2 and they hit their fiscal number already they don't work for the next six months
• 26:33
  and then there's people that want to make a million dollars or maybe a little bit less but you
• 26:38
  can make a couple hundred thousand dollars especially in telecom I think it used to be more now you
• 26:42
  can I'm sure of what some companies can make over a million dollars as a salesperson in SaaS
• 26:46
  for selling enterprise deals for like Oracle or or salesforce.com or any of these I'm sure you
• 26:51
  can make a like a significant amount of money so you have people that are just comfortable
• 26:55
  hitting the numbers and they slack or people that don't hit their numbers are fired comfortable
• 26:58
  hitting numbers and they slack and people that hit their numbers and like q1 and then they're
• 27:02
  still like just like pedal to the metal for the next the next nine months and those are the ones
• 27:08
  that just absolutely kill it because they want they're hungry like they're really really hungry
• 27:12
  and then because they do so much it's almost again a little bit of a flywheel they're doing so
• 27:17
  much activity that every activity that they do becomes more effective and more efficient
• 27:23
  and that's really it I mean when you're to translate that to entrepreneur if you want to
• 27:28
  if you want to sell more I think this is a Hormosi lesson right get a thousand nose just do do more
• 27:36
  and you'll get result but you'll also get better that's so yeah like I I'm always like looking for
• 27:42
  that what's the secret sauce but it's like they're really like because what you say sounds exactly
• 27:48
  like making content to it's like it's true so what's doing well they're not doing something
• 27:53
  exception but they're just doing more of it they're doing more of it and they get better at it
• 27:57
  because they have more practice personality wise those top people that are the hit their number
• 28:04
  q1 they keep going right what do you think is motivating them usually like what is the thing that they
• 28:13
  what's the drive that they have that those people who hit their number and they just stop
• 28:19
  well I think that it's important to know that when you hire people people are in different seasons
• 28:24
  of their life that's and that's fine I mean you're not hiring somebody I mean you can hire
• 28:29
  somebody and say oh it's great that they hit 500% to target but you're not hiring everybody to
• 28:36
  hit 500% to target so your so your targets aren't properly set you you want people to hit maybe
• 28:42
  110% to target because that's how you're that's how you forecast it out your your business and you
• 28:48
  have to understand that not everybody wants to hit 500% to target not everybody wants to work 80
• 28:52
  hours a week as a salesperson because some people have different motivations like if for somebody who
• 28:56
  is single who has no family who is just trying to make as much money as possible nothing wrong with
• 29:03
  that that might be a motivation I mean it's very hard to assume motivations but I would say the people
• 29:08
  that continue past that q1 goal they want to make a shit ton of money they want to they want to prove
• 29:15
  themselves so they can get a better title if you are working that hard
• 29:22
  it's I don't think it's I don't usually think it's because you're trying to start your own
• 29:30
  business and you're trying to get as much experience as possible usually motivations for working
• 29:33
  that hard are like money or role I think that people that just hit their number they could be
• 29:42
  and there's again just making a lot of assumptions here but they could be focused on their family
• 29:48
  they just got married they had kids maybe there maybe they have other complications and they just
• 29:53
  need to show up for those 40 hours a week and they want to hit their number and they want to keep
• 29:57
  a job they're taking care of their parents and the you know you never know there's like a million
• 30:02
  different reasons why people have motivations but I think that also I want to just one more
• 30:09
  thought just because I think it's important instead of assuming I think you should get clear on
• 30:16
  those motivations when you're hiring them and have like a radically candid conversation about why
• 30:22
  people are doing what they want to do and I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't ever not hire
• 30:30
  somebody because they want to have like a good balanced life I think it's actually very important
• 30:35
  and that's a stable person in your organization because keep in mind the person that is
• 30:39
  gunning for money or position there's a very high chance that they are going to look for the next
• 30:46
  best thing if those are motivators for them but somebody who is okay with hitting their number
• 30:51
  their target and having kids and having a family and they don't need more or this is not the
• 30:57
  season of their life where they're looking for more that person could stay with you for five six
• 31:00
  ten plus years that could be a very stable contribution to your company so there's there's pluses
• 31:06
  and minuses to every kind of person as long as they're doing the bare minimum that is
• 31:11
  not the bare minimum they're they're hitting the KPIs you said out for them
• 31:17
  yeah like I noticed that rock stars usually come with their own set of problems
• 31:22
  they do and I mean I mean you can make assumptions about like personality traits and you can
• 31:26
  probably run a disc profile or what's the other one where you get like the ENTJ or I don't even
• 31:33
  know that one there's another one that Myers breaks that's it Myers breaks and you can see
• 31:38
  different personality traits and you can make an argument that there's some personalities that are
• 31:42
  more traditionally set up for sales than others but yeah I think that personalities decide
• 31:49
  rock stars do have their own problems not all yeah there could be go involved and there could be
• 31:54
  a little bit of toxicity that may actually require you to get rid of rock stars even if they're
• 31:59
  overperforming but what's kind of your personal philosophy like it's like it's from your own
• 32:05
  perspective yeah are you motivated by like money are you motivated by like no it's all yeah you
• 32:16
  go no sorry tell me yours and then I'll tell you my no I don't have one like I'm just struggling
• 32:21
  to find mine because I'm because like half the people I hear are like yeah you need that external
• 32:28
  kind of accountability or validation in order to keep chasing that thing that the other half is like
• 32:34
  no just you know whatever makes you happy just be present and oh yeah I'm kind of struggling
• 32:39
  to find mine right now that's why I asked you so I think that everybody to some degree is motivated
• 32:45
  by money but I think that the difference is like what's your number what is what is the amount
• 32:53
  where you feel comfortable and like I've hit that number so then am I worried about am I
• 33:01
  worried about making more money I'll give you an example so right now what does my life look like
• 33:06
  so I am currently sitting in a podcast studio that's about 20 feet away from my house so I wake up
• 33:12
  I have a coffee in the morning I answer some emails um we're like Gina and myself we're trying
• 33:18
  for kids you want to build a family move into a house we could have kids in the house god willing
• 33:23
  that all happens I can come back here I can interview people they can you know I'm in Miami they
• 33:28
  can come and hang out in the actual studio we do virtual stuff like we're doing now so my life
• 33:33
  is very balanced trust me when I say that if I was purely focused on making money there's a lot
• 33:41
  of ways you can make money and not enjoy your work it's very easy to do there's a lot of things that
• 33:47
  you can do that are just sure money and you just maybe you do enjoy it I don't know but
• 33:52
  podcast is not the majority of people going to make them a hundred million dollars
• 33:58
  it can make you it can make you a living and it can make you very comfortable living and I think
• 34:03
  this is actually an interesting conversation about like the middle class creator economy
• 34:07
  what does that look like and is there one because there's arguments that there is it I believe
• 34:10
  there is one and I believe that if that's what you're interested in that season of your life great
• 34:16
  at a younger age I was more focused on just money no family now I'm focused on good money good
• 34:24
  life but balance with family and other things that are important to me maybe that'll change once
• 34:30
  my kids are grown up I have no idea but yeah some people for sure are just motivated by money and
• 34:34
  they don't do anything except have money and they don't want to have kids and they don't even
• 34:37
  want to date and all they want to do is start the next thing and the next thing and the next thing
• 34:41
  and there's nothing wrong with that but for me I do I do think that it's important to build
• 34:48
  a family to build relationships I have seen the dude I'm telling you in Miami I see these guys
• 34:55
  that are like 60 divorced they made a shit ton of money they've had no relationship with their
• 35:01
  wife or their kids they're at clubs spending 20 30 thousand dollars on a bottle I don't want that
• 35:10
  and I don't think many people want that I think that most people want a comfortable life they can
• 35:16
  work on things they enjoy which I enjoy this podcast they can travel whenever they want they can
• 35:21
  get some help they don't have to do the things they don't want to do you know it doesn't take a lot
• 35:24
  to get somebody to do the landscaping or to cook for you if you like or maybe you like cooking
• 35:29
  doesn't matter you don't really want to travel overseas in economy so I get that so maybe you don't
• 35:33
  need a private jet but maybe you want to fly a first or business because I'm 62 dudes are traveling
• 35:39
  overseas in economy absolutely sucks so so I guess you have to understand the lifestyle you want
• 35:45
  where your north star is and then you build towards that and that's why I'm such a big fan of
• 35:51
  entrepreneurship in a non-traditional Stanford dropout raised money sense because I think non-traditional
• 35:57
  entrepreneurship where you turn your expertise into something that can help companies and you sell
• 36:02
  that expertise I think as a service business or whatever I think that's a great way to build
• 36:07
  this kind of lifestyle that a lot of people would aspire to achieve I hopefully that answers your
• 36:13
  question yeah I have a couple follow-up questions like yeah well I mean first is kind of a comment I
• 36:19
  just I don't know if people know what they want until they've like for me I always used to be
• 36:26
  like oh I'll never pay 10x more just to play fine in first class like like what's the what's the
• 36:32
  point but then as soon as I did once once I did it like I got it and then like now I can't fly
• 36:39
  economy yeah it's sometimes like I you don't know if you want something or not until you've
• 36:45
  actually experienced it you know I mean correct yes correct but I'm saying that it doesn't take that
• 36:50
  much money to experience most things yeah that's true what yeah did something change for you like
• 36:57
  because it sounds like early earlier in life you were more motivated for the financial maybe not
• 37:01
  money but I think I was just I think most people when they're early on they're just very aggressive
• 37:08
  about their career because they want to prove themselves to the world I think it's a pretty
• 37:12
  normal experience I think that some people just get comfortable with where they're at that's
• 37:19
  really I mean don't get me wrong I have a lot of plans for the show we can talk about why why I
• 37:25
  even started building it in the first place I want to you know I want to actually leverage the
• 37:30
  audience and even I've thought about taking small equity positions and startups with media exposure
• 37:36
  which I think is a great way for creators to not turn into operators but actually leverage the media
• 37:40
  asset they've built all these ideas are floating around but I for example again I said I'm just
• 37:47
  doing the podcast I have I travel I speak it's a lot of fun but what I'm not doing is I'm not
• 37:53
  starting like five new companies which I could I mean I could just jump into new ideas all the time
• 37:58
  I could try and play operator again but you can also not do anything do I mean yeah I don't think
• 38:04
  that's how I don't think that's good either so I guess my question will be where is that ambition
• 38:10
  come from then if not because it clearly sounds like it's not coming from money or validation or
• 38:15
  anything like that um where does the ambition come from for you that's a great question um
• 38:25
  I think that I think that a lot of people maybe you feel this maybe you don't when you put out this
• 38:34
  podcast I think you probably and I do to feel a sense of fulfillment for having great conversations
• 38:43
  that you know will hopefully help somebody who's maybe five or 10 years earlier in their journey
• 38:47
  there's that piece to it the second piece I think that's the I think that is the main thing
• 38:53
  yeah for me second piece is I love sitting down with cool people and having conversations I mean
• 38:58
  that's sort of like a selfish thing and the fact that the podcast ends up paying for itself and then
• 39:03
  some because we've been doing it for a long time and we've grown it that also helps but I think it's
• 39:08
  I think it's a little bit of fulfillment because I've always I mean well my my first job ever was
• 39:13
  coaching tennis at a very young age I used to play tennis and then I went from like camp like
• 39:19
  camp attendee like I went from like a camper into like coaching and I was at this one tennis club
• 39:24
  for I don't even know since I was six something like that until I was like early teens and I was
• 39:30
  coaching kids and it was just very fulfilling and then I I did some pro bono I mean like fast
• 39:39
  forward obviously many years but then I would do pro bono mentorship with startups I was working
• 39:43
  with the University of Toronto and we were doing some like fractional CXO stuff with the startups going
• 39:48
  through an incubator at the U of University of Toronto I just enjoy it a lot I think that
• 39:55
  and I don't think I'm alone in this when you have experience with something and you tell that
• 40:02
  you somebody has a problem and you because I appreciate this when I have a problem and somebody
• 40:06
  does the same thing to me when you have experienced something you tell somebody the solution to the
• 40:09
  problem where you help them and cover it themselves and you see this transformation of this person
• 40:14
  from stressed and anxious and not knowing what to do to oh my god all of a sudden I feel like
• 40:20
  this waste been lifted off my shoulders I think that's a beautiful thing I think most humans
• 40:24
  want to help other humans achieve that feeling because I don't know I think that it life doesn't
• 40:29
  have to be that hard and I found it with the podcast I can just do that at scale which I think is
• 40:33
  also a very a very nice thing but continuing on you were talking about like oh so you're giving
• 40:40
  somebody a light bulb moment and yeah I think I think that's I think that when you when you give
• 40:44
  somebody you know you help somebody overcome a problem and they're going through something you've
• 40:51
  already gone through and you know five ten minutes of your time can just lift this weight off
• 40:58
  their shoulders and you see that before and after of that person I think it's I think it's a very
• 41:02
  fulfilling feeling as a you know and I think that with the podcast I believe that and you know
• 41:11
  you as well I believe that we've both been given the opportunity to do this at scale I think that
• 41:16
  having conversations and being you know gifted in the art of asking good questions and pulling
• 41:25
  out information from people that have solved these problems and built incredible things I think
• 41:31
  that that's I think it's a good business to be and I think it's a I think it's a valuable
• 41:36
  business to be and I mean if I think about the businesses that I would like to participate in
• 41:40
  their businesses that give value to the world and not just extract value and I think this is I
• 41:45
  mean there's many ways to do it but I think this is one way that I enjoy for like the all the reasons
• 41:50
  I just mentioned and I think that that's sort of it gives me ambition and drive to do it
• 41:57
  yeah that deeply resonates with me like I because I think I I'm the same way I'm like I
• 42:03
  again I get more joy out of like being the person to give that do that for somebody then
• 42:12
  having having received it and I'll tell you like I think that the the litmus test that you can
• 42:19
  deploy to see if the work you're doing actually fulfills you is it's very simple I mean this is
• 42:26
  not like a new idea like would you do it for free right and I can say with almost 100% certainty
• 42:33
  if I made no money from this podcast I would still do it I have to find a way to make money maybe
• 42:39
  I would just do it at night or on the weekends but I'd still enjoy it a lot and I think that's
• 42:44
  a great test for whether or not what you're doing is is fulfilling and I mean that's not I think
• 42:49
  we're very fortunate that we can we can do this for for jobs right I don't think that's the norm
• 42:54
  for most people I live as people find their work as fulfilling but maybe that's something people
• 43:00
  should like strive for and and maybe that's a good sign that what you're doing is it what you
• 43:06
  really should be doing for the rest of your life I don't I just want to take a second and thank
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• 44:16
  so can you kind of talk about how how you got there how you got to the point where not only like
• 44:24
  okay from that that sales job you had to being an entrepreneur and starting your own business
• 44:31
  and then like I guess from there you didn't really have to start a podcast but you did correct
• 44:36
  so I also want to talk about here about that too each sure so which one do you want to go into
• 44:40
  do you want to talk about like why I started the show in particular or yeah let's actually
• 44:46
  actually jump to this as we have limited time whichever I mean I'm okay yeah I think so I guess
• 44:51
  okay so when I started the show yes I wasn't super concerned about money but also when I started
• 44:58
  so when I was starting the show I was building the last company which was acquired right at the end
• 45:02
  of covid and that was a broadcast software company and I had started the show while we were still
• 45:08
  building that company before we were acquired and the reason why I started the show was because
• 45:14
  basically how that transaction took place grass valley was a company that acquired us and for
• 45:20
  lack of a better description there was a tribe before you buy a situation and we were working with
• 45:26
  grass valley in like a joint venture capacity knowing that if the product that we have which
• 45:34
  was a SaaS product for broadcasters if it did well against the grass valley customer base they
• 45:40
  were going to acquire the whole company so basically why is that important because like writing
• 45:43
  was on the wall that we were going to get acquired we already had a strategic buyer that was
• 45:47
  lining us up and the podcast was first of all at the beginning kind of like how do I describe it
• 45:57
  I was sort of future proofing myself I knew that this exit was going to happen there'd be a little
• 46:02
  bit of money not like never work again money but there would be a little bit of money but I also
• 46:06
  knew that it wasn't going to be big and stuff that I would never have to do anything and I wanted
• 46:12
  the next thing that I did just to be a little bit easier I was taking a note of Gary Vee's
• 46:17
  playbook because I saw what he built and I saw the brand that he built and I understood that now
• 46:22
  you can launch companies against that brand because he has all these eyeballs and he did it with the
• 46:25
  NFTs and and VaynerMedia and empathy wines and well VaynerMedia was kind of the main one but he
• 46:31
  launched all these other brands against that audience and that was really that was really it I
• 46:35
  didn't know what I wanted to launch against the audience but I'm like let me build the audience
• 46:39
  speaking about content that I love I'm a marketer so I know how to do all this stuff I know everything
• 46:45
  from again the graphic design to the copy that goes into newsletters that promotes the show to
• 46:52
  audio video editing and I've definitely gone down the rabbit hole and learned way too much about
• 46:57
  cameras that I never thought I would have to learn now I understand aperture and key lights and
• 47:02
  all this other stuff that I never thought I'd have to know but I'm kind of like as an entrepreneur I
• 47:07
  do dive into the the weeds to learn before I hire but yeah I just knew I knew sort of the ways to
• 47:14
  market it I knew how to run paid traffic against it I knew how to clip out 30 to 45 second videos I
• 47:21
  knew how to you know write a great newsletters going to drive traffic back to the podcast so I knew
• 47:25
  all this stuff like let me just start it so that was really the start was at all skills that you
• 47:31
  kind of learned starting your business or well because at this point it was I had done a lot of
• 47:38
  consulting work with early stage startups doing fractional CXO work for them so it was fractive
• 47:42
  CXO is like it was a mixture of CRO and CMO gigs and then yes also from building a company were you
• 47:49
  doing that like kind of while you were still running your business or yeah yeah and yeah exactly yeah
• 47:57
  so I was like wow you you had your own business and you had a site also while you had your own
• 48:02
  business yes correct so yeah so for clarity yeah yeah yes yeah yeah I mean yes I yes I did
• 48:11
  yes I did yeah I've never heard of that like I could usually people that build their own business
• 48:16
  just do their business right well okay so understand that understand that there's many ways to
• 48:24
  build a podcast and for most people most people they build a podcast that would lead back to the
• 48:31
  business right that's the majority of people but I think the reason why I didn't start a show
• 48:38
  for the company is because I knew they were like like we were gonna be acquired you were selling
• 48:43
  yeah yeah so I was like I don't I want to start this integration for whatever happens after
• 48:50
  and were you putting out content or building a personal brand in any other way before
• 48:56
  you started the podcast no or you know podcast was the thing podcast was a thing okay yeah I mean
• 49:01
  I had I had dabbled on LinkedIn I had built a decent audience on LinkedIn but it wasn't
• 49:05
  significant and then I used the LinkedIn audience to launch the podcast the podcast actually
• 49:10
  was first called sales versus marketing because it was a sort of a play on what I was doing
• 49:17
  every single day which was sales and marketing and I was interviewing CROs and CMOs and then after
• 49:22
  the acquisition I expanded it except was boring to me so I wanted to bring another other topics
• 49:29
  but so I I have such a hard time growing my podcast yeah I don't really spend a lot of time
• 49:38
  on it it's not my main con like I use it to get clips and stuff like that yeah but I'm I'm mostly
• 49:46
  like doing written content what's the yeah so how can I call my podcast like what did you do
• 49:52
  um I mean the way that I look at growing a podcast is it it is a product
• 49:59
  so you can do everything and what do I mean by that okay so there's not a single marketing
• 50:04
  thing that you would do for a company that you couldn't do for a podcast so first of all you
• 50:08
  have content marketing right so you have long form audio video and you crop that you clip that
• 50:15
  into short form video and then you clip it into 10-minute segments which are a little bit more
• 50:19
  tied into the YouTube algorithm and you're posting all this stuff and then you transcribe it and
• 50:23
  you turn it into a newsletter you're sending it to your your your email list uh you're also
• 50:29
  taking a transcription and you're looking for like these super motivational spiky points of
• 50:34
  view or opinions and you're turning those into tweets you're turning those into little graphics you
• 50:39
  can post on Facebook and Instagram and you're all driving back to the podcast so that's your
• 50:43
  content marketing play uh for other other ways to grow it um you can always run paid so I did run
• 50:49
  paid through uh player FM cast box uh I've run ads pushing people to the podcast now you can run
• 50:57
  ads through Spotify so there is a paid option as well um you want to get as high quality video as
• 51:04
  possible because again an RSS feed audio component of a podcast does not have organic reach so I try
• 51:11
  and attract organic net new subscribers from YouTube second largest search end in the world you
• 51:16
  know this obviously um what else is there so you have content marketing we have paid um you swaps
• 51:22
  to that's another way so you can do a swaps to the other podcast you can trade impressions for
• 51:27
  impressions um so you and I think this is useful because again it's not it doesn't cost you money
• 51:33
  to do it so you find somebody else who has a podcast and a similar niche and you say hey listen I
• 51:38
  have a hundred thousand downloads or I have five thousand downloads as a matter or a million
• 51:42
  downloads it really makes no difference let's do like an impression per impression swap so we
• 51:46
  there can do like a pre-roll mineral ad or we could even do like a whole um feed swap or I take
• 51:52
  a full episode you give me one of your full episodes I'm going to record an intro explaining that hey
• 51:57
  you know this is a creator's podcast he speaks about this if you like it here's a full episode if
• 52:04
  you want to go subscribe go to www.podcast.com and the other creator does the same and that's a great
• 52:11
  way to collaborate and cross promote but yeah all right did you um so did you do all of this by
• 52:19
  yourself like did you learn how to do this all yourself or uh yeah yeah I did and then I hired
• 52:25
  people for post-production I did hire people but I did not hire them out of the gate I did everything
• 52:31
  myself until the show made money and then I rolled that uh that money into a video editor his name's
• 52:37
  Ali he's still my CMO and now he hired a whole bunch of other people that an EA graphic design
• 52:42
  copywriter uh and then another video editor so he he doesn't do a lot of the video editing himself
• 52:48
  anymore actually found him on five or upwork I can't remember but I found him and then helped him
• 52:53
  build out his own company and now he runs a marketing agency uh and I'm one of his clients but
• 52:58
  yeah at the beginning I did it all myself so you said that in the beginning you didn't really have
• 53:04
  uh you didn't have a product or anything you were just uh building this brand first um
• 53:11
  so you you just drove all you just looked at the podcast as the product and you just drove all the
• 53:17
  traffic and I'm still doing that now now like very very recently so almost six years into this
• 53:24
  now I'm figuring out different products because I also oh you still don't have a product
• 53:30
  no I'm figuring it out now the product is ad revenue the product is ad revenue but now I'm
• 53:35
  thinking of different ways to to productize it and then the question would be like why Scott
• 53:41
  but the answer is you know sometimes entrepreneurs it's very hard to stay focused
• 53:48
  and I've always had um I've always liked building and after uh like after the exit and after um
• 54:00
  we moved down from Toronto to to Florida and then I tried to start other businesses I tried to
• 54:04
  start a few different as CPD company tried to I tried to uh start a small private equity fund that
• 54:10
  would do sort of um Cody Sanchez style brick and mortar acquisitions um I tried to build a mastermind
• 54:18
  group I've tried to do a couple other things nothing successfully but I mean that's whatever
• 54:23
  that's entrepreneurship you have a a million different failures uh and you know fast forward to
• 54:31
  today where I spent the last now four four years trying to build different things um I'm finally
• 54:38
  taking my own advice and sort of tripling down on the one thing that is working and finding
• 54:44
  different ways to productize that and I've also said this a few times I think it's important um how
• 54:50
  do most creators how do most creators productize their business well like they can have an agency
• 54:57
  you can be like a service-based you can do courses you can do paid community a couple different
• 55:03
  things you can launch you can launch an actual product but that's like a significant amount of work
• 55:07
  um if you're gonna launch an actual product so most people default to like agency your service
• 55:11
  base or courses or community and uh and yeah it just wasn't as exciting for me to do some of
• 55:17
  those ideas and I did I never really wanted to start an agency I might in the future but that
• 55:22
  seems like a I feel innocent agencies are tough as I'm sure you know um I never felt comfortable
• 55:30
  productizing my knowledge not because I didn't have anything to teach I felt that if I did
• 55:36
  ever do that and I'm thinking about some ideas around that now but if you productize your experience
• 55:42
  which a lot of you know creators do I find that a lot of people overcharge and under deliver value
• 55:49
  and I never wanted to be associated with that and I think that that's why I was so um apprehensive
• 55:55
  though charging for wisdom and charging for experience I think the yeah I think the wisdom and the
• 56:04
  knowledge and the information I I don't believe that people should charge money for that at all
• 56:11
  I know but that's because I think that's a greater economy is people charging for courses and stuff
• 56:16
  like that yeah I think what they should charge is for uh some sort of a process like for example like
• 56:24
  when you go when you pay a hundred dollars a month to go to yoga class you're not paying because
• 56:30
  you're learning some new moves or anything like that but you're you're paying for the process of
• 56:35
  actually doing it and getting better at it and I think that like that's why I want to do reasons
• 56:40
  why I started a 30-dollar month membership is because I don't want like everything that I teach
• 56:47
  I'm giving it away for free but I think that if you none of those matter if you unless you actually
• 56:53
  put it into practice and do like storytelling exercises I agree with that completely and that's
• 56:58
  kind of what I'm selling so I don't that's a high attached product then somebody just putting up a
• 57:03
  course online or a PDF and selling that exactly yeah which I don't agree what's the product that you
• 57:10
  you're launching or is it figuring it out I'm figuring it out as we speak I have I've you know
• 57:18
  it's so funny um so I'm actually working with uh with Stan which is a software to ideate on
• 57:25
  a full store yeah yeah yeah oh good um when they work with a ton of creators and I've had this
• 57:30
  conversation with with their team a few times and we were ideating on different products to launch
• 57:35
  and probably it probably because I have a if I'm going to attach my name to something I want it
• 57:44
  to be exceptional so we put together a couple like courses and and processes but then what ends
• 57:49
  up happening is I I end up not wanting to charge for them because I think they're good but not
• 57:53
  good enough to charge a significant amount of money for so they end up I have like five lead magnets
• 57:58
  now I have all these different lead magnets they're collecting a lot of email and collecting a lot of
• 58:04
  emails but I'm still thinking through what is worth money and that's um it might it might be a
• 58:12
  community too I think that listen we're talking about an environment where people are charging
• 58:17
  like five thousand bucks for a for a couple a couple videos in in in in pottya or whatever
• 58:26
  course hosting platform they're using right or kejabi I think that already just because if
• 58:32
  you're putting a little bit of thought and care into what you're the problem you're actually
• 58:36
  solving in the in the customer base that you're serving I think already you're going to be ahead
• 58:40
  of ninety nine percent of people online but still you want to make sure that if you built something
• 58:44
  like this it's it's valuable it solves real problems it's people don't have buyers remorse right
• 58:52
  you know you should look at if you're going to launch courses in my mind at least I look at
• 58:56
  it from the perspective of okay so we know our customer acquisition costs we know um we know
• 59:03
  what people are willing to pay but then let's apply some other sass ideas let's talk about lifetime
• 59:08
  value are they keep do they keep coming back for more or after they buy one thing from you they never
• 59:13
  engage with you ever again that's not a good it's not a good indicator that you're getting value
• 59:16
  yes though yeah I think that's the biggest struggle for most of those I know of course in my mind
• 59:22
  if I put something out I want it to be so good that they come back for the next thing and the next
• 59:27
  thing and the next thing and there's a few creators that do this very well um I can't say that
• 59:31
  everybody is not good at this there's some people created this exceptionally well and they put
• 59:35
  out so much value I mean if you look at um Dan co if you look at Jack butcher these are guys that
• 59:42
  people keep coming back it's like people the people that buy their stuff if you look at um who else
• 59:48
  does a good job at this it's also because their product the price fits the because I feel like
• 59:55
  the price prices are actually an important factor because if you were selling the same thing for
• 59:59
  10x more like it might yeah might not work out but because they're selling it uh you're not trying
• 1:00:06
  to they're not trying to gouge the market they're happy over delivering value and underpricing it
• 1:00:11
  but then that's creating ironically a higher long-term value customer a higher LTV customer um
• 1:00:17
  that turns less that is becoming a fan for life that starts to evangelize you and speak about you
• 1:00:22
  and tweet about you and and whatnot so yeah so yeah but what you said about kind of the
• 1:00:30
  sass motto I really like I really like like thinking of it as an sass business because like
• 1:00:36
  yeah that's what I with my community that's what I want eventually a few years down the road
• 1:00:40
  I want to take everything that I learn what's working and then I want to actually like build more of
• 1:00:44
  a app kind of like rolling or something like that where okay I know these things make them do
• 1:00:50
  these storytelling exercise and share their story but with us I can actually like build it all
• 1:00:55
  into the app and I would love to do that and you have to then you have to think like in any business
• 1:01:02
  the most expensive customer is a new customer the cheapest customer is a returning customer
• 1:01:06
  so it just makes good business sense that's really it but I think that when people put garbage
• 1:01:11
  into the market and they're just be they're just great marketers and they have shitty product and
• 1:01:15
  we all know them it's because they don't feel confident and they don't feel like they can attract
• 1:01:21
  the person the second time which is no way to build a business for some reason
• 1:01:26
  it just exists in this course creator world nowhere else would have business survive only selling
• 1:01:31
  to a customer once they go out of business but because course courses are such a time margin I guess
• 1:01:37
  in theory people are able to do it for a long period of time yes sir yeah you just maybe
• 1:01:42
  realize that something like because people do charge a lot because they know that they can for
• 1:01:50
  example they know that they cannot get a thousand customers so I'll just sell to 20 customers but
• 1:01:55
  like I'm really high price or something like that sure but the thing is they they use the excuse
• 1:02:04
  I'm charging a lot because it's valuable or like it's you know you have to you know if they don't
• 1:02:09
  pay they don't pay attention so they use that they hide behind this excuse but what they're really
• 1:02:14
  doing is like what and I think a lot of them are just lying to themselves like they have this
• 1:02:19
  deep insecurity of I don't actually think this thing can scale or I can I believe that I think
• 1:02:26
  that's actually very I guess funny I've never thought of it that way but that actually makes perfect
• 1:02:29
  sense it that I'm really loving all of the things that you're saying because you're you're kind
• 1:02:37
  of reiterating to me because I go into that world of like okay where is that secret sauce or what's
• 1:02:43
  that new sexy thing but like it's you're really kind of like humbling me to be like okay everything
• 1:02:50
  is really is like if I look at everything I've done it is really doing the basics just more of it
• 1:02:55
  I agree I don't think it's that complicated I don't think I don't think business is hard work
• 1:03:02
  and but it's not complicated I mean there's only so many levers you can pull
• 1:03:07
  if something's not working it's usually because your product sucks so find a way to improve the
• 1:03:11
  product if you do it for long enough naturally the product will improve most people are smart
• 1:03:18
  enough to figure out and iterate and pivot and change stuff up it's gonna take longer than it
• 1:03:24
  you expect it's gonna take more energy and money than you expect but when it does work around
• 1:03:31
  the maybe six seven eight year mark it's gonna make you more money than you ever thought possible
• 1:03:37
  so I think that just expectations have to be realigned around business
• 1:03:41
  doesn't matter what you're building yeah yeah like I because that it's what it's what I feel like
• 1:03:48
  I'm in a coaching session right now because when I was like asking you about like how do I grow my
• 1:03:55
  podcast and as soon as you said like yeah do you build do all of this and drive it back to your
• 1:04:00
  focus I'm like yeah of course like I should be doing that all of those things but also also it's
• 1:04:10
  true but also at the same time I respect that you haven't because you have to under is also a very
• 1:04:16
  important idea you have to understand where the podcast fits right where does a podcast fit in your
• 1:04:22
  business so what what's the time benefit of doing all those things for something that is kind of like
• 1:04:29
  this fun little marketing hobby maybe it's not there maybe it's maybe there is no time benefit
• 1:04:35
  or cost benefit to putting all that energy into the podcast if it only gives you like three leads
• 1:04:41
  a week when whatever SEO or paid is going to give you 20 leads a week I don't know I'm making
• 1:04:49
  up numbers but you get the point so it's made if if you're going to put energy towards it make sure
• 1:04:54
  that it aligns with your north star too yeah that is very important if it doesn't I think I think you're
• 1:04:59
  right you know I do have to think about that a little bit but one thing I do know for figure I
• 1:05:04
  heard you talk about this too like YouTube audience and podcast audience are no match to like
• 1:05:11
  social media I think one YouTube subscribers worth like a hundred Instagram followers a thousand
• 1:05:17
  percent there's so much more loyal if you look at TikTok is the worst TikTok there's no loyalty
• 1:05:24
  if I've run campaigns on TikTok and this is not again I'm sure that some people can make TikTok
• 1:05:30
  work for their brand I run campaigns on TikTok and I get I can spend five grand 10 grand and get
• 1:05:34
  zero conversions but if I if I work with a youtuber and and I think it's because it's video and I
• 1:05:41
  think it's because it's long form and I think it's because their fans have sort of grown up with a
• 1:05:45
  lot of the youtubers if I can spend money with a youtuber and you do like a minute and a half two
• 1:05:51
  minute mid-roll of them talking about something your product organically I mean it's like night and
• 1:05:57
  day compared to to TikTok it's just the the level of fandom with youtubers is crazy there's
• 1:06:04
  you ever want to know you ever want to understand the power of youtubers go go watch lifestyle
• 1:06:11
  you big lifestyle youtubers or big beauty youtubers I just say that because they sell a lot of
• 1:06:16
  products I mean there's other types of youtubers as well but if you go to a lifestyle or a beauty
• 1:06:20
  youtuber a big one and go listen to their video and when they talk about a product go try and buy
• 1:06:26
  that product in the store the next day and you won't be able to you just won't be able to like if
• 1:06:31
  there's like some weird secret ingredient for a holiday like a holiday dish they put together
• 1:06:38
  that we're that weird spice you can't get it at any grocery store that you can drive to
• 1:06:44
  it's insane it's absolutely insane beauty is working for them the beauty is I know this because
• 1:06:51
  Gina watches some of these youtubers and she'll say I want to try to do this or I want to try
• 1:06:57
  and make this for dinner and we'll go to late we're in Florida we'll go to a publics
• 1:07:02
  or all foods or a trader Joe's and that particular ingredient like the whole shelf will be cleared out
• 1:07:08
  it's crazy I've never seen influence like that before yeah yeah I mean because I know that
• 1:07:14
  it's similar with like Tim Ferriss's when he promotes a product like yeah let's go across the
• 1:07:19
  place Tim Ferriss is Tim Ferriss is wild so I aspire to have this show that Tim Ferriss has
• 1:07:26
  he I think I think an ad slot on his show is 50 grand for one ad slot on his show he probably
• 1:07:32
  pulls in I think he said he's like he could be pulling in 10 million just through the podcast
• 1:07:38
  annually without any like additional deals no like no Spotify deals no serious deals no
• 1:07:43
  100 million it just be running at like 10 million dollars which is again it is like 95 percent
• 1:07:48
  profit because it takes the same amount of energy to put one hour two hour episode together
• 1:07:54
  that goes out to a thousand people as it does to make one that goes out to to you know a hundred
• 1:08:01
  thousand or a million but that's and also what he does he's guys a beast he obviously tells a lot
• 1:08:08
  of brands know and he's left a lot of money on the table and told them though but secondly
• 1:08:14
  he will audit the funnel of the brand to make sure that the ad will convert well so this is not
• 1:08:21
  normal for 99 percent of podcasters most podcasters you not go to an athletic greens or a better help
• 1:08:27
  or a manscaped or a LinkedIn and be like I want you to redo your landing page because I know it's
• 1:08:33
  gonna suck but apparently this is what he does he like redoes the brand's landing page because he
• 1:08:38
  knows exactly not all of that but he knows exactly what his audience wants and that's how I mean
• 1:08:45
  just another level well that's yeah I mean I've heard of a couple people doing that but I don't
• 1:08:50
  know many do I think it's a minority that do that not because it's not even worth it unless
• 1:08:57
  they have a certain amount of audience also yeah I have one final question I'm sure we can probably
• 1:09:04
  maybe if you can come back in a few months like I'm sure there's a lot to talk about I can do
• 1:09:08
  whatever yeah I we can go we can talk about a whole bunch I feel like we're very much kind of
• 1:09:13
  it's spirit so I feel like anything we talk about we could probably spend an hour on but we could
• 1:09:18
  do one in a few months to if you want yeah so my last question is if uh so it took you it sounds
• 1:09:30
  like you weren't making any money when you started a podcast and at least not from the podcast
• 1:09:34
  no not from the podcast now how long did it take you until you started monetizing or making a
• 1:09:40
  profit from the podcast and how did you last those period like well I found it in one place for me yeah
• 1:09:48
  like me that that's the the brutal truth is it's like I found it a lot of it myself
• 1:09:53
  until I made money like a moment when like it feels like oh I don't see a light at the end of
• 1:09:59
  the tunnel it's like how like is this is this actually gonna take off at one point or like because I
• 1:10:04
  have a lot of that kind of similar feeling with my podcast so around the two-year mark um was when
• 1:10:12
  so I had registered the podcast on advertised cast and I think I think gumball like right from
• 1:10:17
  the get go and it was around the two-year mark when they started really is showing interest and
• 1:10:23
  started to send me more and more ads and there was like a I think a pretty traditional 70 30 split
• 1:10:28
  and that's because I didn't have a sales team or anything like that I can't remember how much I
• 1:10:32
  made in the first year it's probably I don't know both 40 or 50,000 maybe okay so it wasn't like
• 1:10:42
  significant it was it was like enough to cover my costs yeah it was enough to cover my I mean it
• 1:10:48
  wasn't like enough for you to live on but no no it was not to cover costs and then it just goes
• 1:10:53
  up from and that was the point like I wasn't did you expect that did you expect it was gonna be
• 1:10:58
  that long or was it like I thought it was gonna be quicker because all my other friends that build
• 1:11:02
  large audiences on social they all had kind of this viral moment everyone who's on Instagram and
• 1:11:07
  TikTok and I have a lot of friends that have built large audiences on both of those platforms and
• 1:11:12
  YouTube as well they all have this like viral moment and then one of their videos just goes nuts
• 1:11:18
  and then all of a sudden it turns into a six-figure business somehow whether or not it's
• 1:11:24
  product sales or sponsorship I found podcasts to be one of the hardest things I've ever grown
• 1:11:29
  and I found it to be very much yeah it grows but it's like not like one viral episode
• 1:11:38
  it's it's not like that at all that's true it's pretty steady like an Instagram yeah for me
• 1:11:43
  I can count in my head like I think there's less than 20 posts that brought me pretty much
• 1:11:48
  most of my followers I have one right now I have one right now actually this has happened more and
• 1:11:54
  more we can talk about this if you want so one one thing that works really well for me on Instagram
• 1:12:02
  is first of all collaborating with other large creators but also these these sort of like
• 1:12:09
  thought-provoking tweet images and I test like about 10 different thoughts on Twitter per day
• 1:12:17
  and then I take those thoughts the ones that perform the best and I turn that into a newsletter I
• 1:12:23
  turn it into a talking head video on YouTube I turn it into a like a 1080 by 1080 in Canva
• 1:12:31
  little quote tweet that I put on Instagram and the important thought in that story is finding a
• 1:12:39
  way to test a lot of ideas and content quickly which for me it's Twitter but whenever I do that
• 1:12:44
  process and I do that process now daily I'll put a graphic image on the 1080 by 1080 image on
• 1:12:50
  Instagram that probably gets me five to ten thousand followers per image which is I mean now
• 1:12:56
  that I have this little formula I can rinse and repeat and it doesn't always hit but it does quite
• 1:13:00
  well so I mean the I mean go back to podcasting in a second but the takeaway is yes find the type
• 1:13:05
  of content that hits I don't like I don't like having to wish and pray and hope is something
• 1:13:14
  it's going to go viral I like something that I can test it and I know that that idea resonates
• 1:13:20
  with the audience when I put that idea across platform is going to perform well everywhere and
• 1:13:24
  that's kind of turned into my Instagram strategy right now as well as collaborating with other
• 1:13:30
  large creators that also helps but yeah I don't go questions I never focus on virality I try and
• 1:13:37
  focus on like predictable framework that still attracts that new followers you want to go back
• 1:13:44
  we go back to podcasting the I have two questions on this and then maybe we can wrap up with the
• 1:13:51
  the podcast another follow up in the podcast deal it's all right one so you said that you don't
• 1:13:58
  like to focus on the viral you kind of focus on the process is that something is that part of
• 1:14:03
  your person have you always been like that like trust the process yes because that you seem
• 1:14:07
  that takes a lot of patience to but you keep in mind my belief one of my core inherent beliefs is
• 1:14:14
  if you want to be successful at anything working out a relationship a business commit 10 years of
• 1:14:19
  your life minimum to it like I I revolt against quick wins I push back against something you learned
• 1:14:28
  when you were young or is that something you learned in kind of as an adult I learned that when
• 1:14:37
  I I saw the people that I looked up to and even the people that I didn't I've
• 1:14:48
  tried to think of like when I actually thought through this concept I think there was multiple
• 1:14:52
  signals in my life that helped me believe in this concept I think that I mean when I was dating
• 1:15:01
  I'm not super old dating had turned more into like a like a hookup culture and I saw the people
• 1:15:07
  that I looked up to in long relationships they committed a lot of time to it and they went through
• 1:15:13
  ups and downs and nothing was perfect but they fought for the relationship and they stayed in
• 1:15:17
  it for the long run and those were the people that were the happiest I saw the people that
• 1:15:22
  were working out they were trying to you know cut corners those epic wasn't around when I was young
• 1:15:27
  but there was steroids and people would take a ton of stuff and I saw people die that were
• 1:15:32
  in looking great and I'm like well I don't want to die so I might as well take you know fitness and
• 1:15:39
  and losing weight and looking good a little bit slower so I don't die and then I saw people that
• 1:15:44
  built businesses in the most boring industries like I think one of the I had a friend in Toronto
• 1:15:51
  and his dad had built a business and the business all they did was they were they would provide like
• 1:15:59
  glass for new homes like windows for like windows for new homes and I saw the house he lived in
• 1:16:05
  I'm like holy shit like this is just from selling glass to builders for new homes and he's like
• 1:16:10
  yeah that's what my dad's been doing for like the past like 15 years and I'm like
• 1:16:14
  that's such an unsexy business and no one's ever gonna know his dad's name but the guy is loaded
• 1:16:20
  and I was just like all you had to do is it commit to something doesn't matter how boring it is
• 1:16:26
  and in 10 to 15 years which is a fraction of your life keep in mind you only need one thing to work out
• 1:16:33
  then you're gonna achieve a life that is significantly better than 99% of the population so I
• 1:16:39
  think there was just a lot of different things that happened in my life that made me really
• 1:16:44
  comfortable with that idea this podcast is brought to you in part by stash are you still putting
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• 1:17:50
  Yeah the richest person I know sells gravel yeah yeah yeah it's the same thing and like there's
• 1:17:57
  no you don't raise money for that business there's no there's no hack to grow a gravel business
• 1:18:01
  you just do it for a long period of time and you build relationships and you know the next year is
• 1:18:06
  better than the last one. How much of it do you think was from because I kind of think you need
• 1:18:13
  that personality when you when you're in sales too right you kind of because it's like yeah you're
• 1:18:18
  doing this process for a long because okay the reason here's the reason why I asked when I was young
• 1:18:22
  I was a type of person as soon as I have money I spend it all like I get paid like I'm by the way
• 1:18:28
  I think most people are like that though that's not so unique to you. So but then I did have some
• 1:18:34
  friends who were really good at saving like you there were always like saving half of their paycheck
• 1:18:39
  and things like that and I've never had that I and I didn't change until like in my 30s after
• 1:18:46
  I built my agency and saw with my own eyes how the delayed gratification and having patients
• 1:18:54
  pays off yeah that's when I actually started believing it but before that I was very impulsive
• 1:19:01
  were you like that as a as a kid or were you younger were you always very I was very relaxed
• 1:19:06
  and patient I wouldn't spend money I hate is spending money I still hate spending money not
• 1:19:10
  because I'm frugal just because I'd like to invest it like I don't buy myself anything nice
• 1:19:15
  probably to a detriment um yeah I've never really also maybe you do have the kind of personality
• 1:19:22
  of like I think it could be a personality like I'm trying to think I never like I think that keep
• 1:19:31
  in mind from a young age I'm thinking about retirement so I'm already like 18 19 years old I'm
• 1:19:36
  already thinking like long game so at that point I'm already okay how do I make enough money
• 1:19:42
  but then I'm already starting to research how do I invest my money and yeah it was I was never
• 1:19:48
  I was never wanting to blow my paycheck because I didn't make a lot when I was young I probably
• 1:19:54
  ended up doing it several times but I hated that feeling the feeling of like not having money in
• 1:20:01
  the bank until next Friday or checking how much money you have when you're sitting at dinner hoping
• 1:20:08
  that your car doesn't decline that to me is like the worst feeling in the world I never wanted
• 1:20:14
  that feeling so I never spent more than I I never spent a lot came from your parents
• 1:20:19
  maybe yeah I think I'm sure I think most things come from your parents to be honest I think most
• 1:20:24
  things come from like these deep childhood experiences and they weren't cheap either but they were
• 1:20:31
  they were just very like my childhood was very safe and calm and you know my dad was not going out
• 1:20:40
  and gambling or or going out and spending tons of money like everything was like we lived good
• 1:20:45
  but we're very happy and we didn't go beyond our means and I was like looking how happy my childhood
• 1:20:52
  is why don't I just live the same way as how I was growing up and it seems to work out and then
• 1:20:57
  that's when I started going back to the beginning when I'm like wait if I do the exact same thing is
• 1:21:02
  what my dad and mom did I'm not going to live the exact same life and that's when I was like okay
• 1:21:06
  wait I got to figure this out but I think a lot of the personality comes from childhood and what
• 1:21:10
  your parents expose you to and what you think is normal and not normal and I am not a psychologist
• 1:21:17
  but no one's ever really asked me these questions so yeah I do too like yeah I can't looking back
• 1:21:22
  now I can think about like how many of my traits came from like my childhood so it's it's
• 1:21:28
  tough um but it's an interesting it's an interesting point because I think a lot of our traumas
• 1:21:32
  and our good experiences all come from kids from childhood so I think it's important to think
• 1:21:37
  about that especially if life is not going the way that you want I think if life is going fine then
• 1:21:43
  yeah you can look back you'd be like thank you parents but I think if life is not going the way
• 1:21:47
  you want I think it's very important to look back and understand why you operate the way that you
• 1:21:51
  operate um and why you believe the things that you believe and maybe going back and finding
• 1:21:57
  somebody who can help uncover those past negative experiences can actually be huge and this is not
• 1:22:01
  my area of expertise but I feel like that could be life changing for a lot of people um second part
• 1:22:08
  of my then Instagram question was so you said that you you tweet like 10 things and then you
• 1:22:13
  you take the ones that do well and then you repurpose them like my from my experience what I found
• 1:22:20
  is that a lot of the stuff that I'm talking about is like usually the same thing over and over
• 1:22:26
  just packaged differently yeah is so when you post those 10 things are they like 10 completely
• 1:22:32
  different ideas or is it like just maybe a similar advice but word a different way um like I've
• 1:22:42
  yeah right now I feel so repetitive I feel like I've said that thing like no no a lot of it is
• 1:22:47
  repetitive a lot of it is repetitive but sometimes it's a lot of it is repetitive but I try and
• 1:22:56
  pull an inspiration from the podcast if we spoke about something that I haven't spoken about before
• 1:23:01
  I'll test out an idea from like this show like I probably have five or six different ideas of
• 1:23:05
  things that I can talk about that I don't normally talk about maybe I'll mention something about
• 1:23:09
  childhood trauma maybe I'll mention something I don't know I'll think of something that'll be a
• 1:23:13
  little bit different than my normal my normal uh my normal sort of like go to topics but I also think
• 1:23:21
  um I also think what keeps it fresh is I usually tweet that night and I really try and think of
• 1:23:29
  all the the worst things that are happening in my life and turn that into content so if I'm having
• 1:23:36
  a tough conversation with an employee or if I just lost a deal or like I try and turn because I know
• 1:23:43
  that if it's significant enough to stress me out then it's significant enough to hit home and
• 1:23:52
  resonate with someone else because someone else is dealing with it so that's what I try and do
• 1:23:56
  and hopefully I don't know the same problems every day but that's something that's really worked
• 1:23:59
  for me uh actually you were like when I'm talking about something personal to me like that
• 1:24:06
  yeah it comes out differently too it does it hit like there's some energy that goes into this
• 1:24:13
  this thought and like I feel like I listen I'm not like superstitious but I feel like when you tweet
• 1:24:19
  something that is real and it happened to you people on the other side they just feel it
• 1:24:27
  and then you can actually bring it I mean if you're comfortable it's a little bit um uncomfortable
• 1:24:32
  to do this but if you're comfortable you can actually like reference the actual thing that happened
• 1:24:37
  usually people don't want it like I don't like referencing stuff that I'm dealing with in real time
• 1:24:41
  usually I'll talk about it on a podcast and like in like 12 months from that
• 1:24:46
  when I'm when it's no longer stressing me over it yeah exactly but yeah so I think that's
• 1:24:53
  I think it's a great way to think through content and you can you can tweet out a lot of emotion
• 1:24:57
  in a lot of real life thoughts without telling the world what you're going through uh and giving
• 1:25:04
  intimate details but I think that's a great place for content to come from now please whoever's
• 1:25:08
  listening to this don't like read into it and think that everything I tweet is this horrible
• 1:25:12
  problem that's going on in my life but I'm just saying it doesn't it doesn't hurt to use that as
• 1:25:16
  inspiration do you tweet like all at once or yeah I usually do like five or six at once and then I'll
• 1:25:23
  go back in two hours and I'll see which one has the has the most engaged that's not optimal this is
• 1:25:29
  not like best practices for content it's literally because I'm just too busy during the day if I
• 1:25:33
  had nothing else to do during the day then I would space them out and I would even I would even say
• 1:25:37
  that you could I mean you can use scheduling tools whatever um but for for my strategy it hasn't hurt
• 1:25:44
  me so and then I can also if I want to tag people or whatever then I can actually do the proper tags
• 1:25:50
  anyways I just do it my way but I still get I still get engaged working for you and keep in mind
• 1:25:57
  the goal of the goal of my strategy is to test multiple ideas if I had like a my my strategy is not
• 1:26:03
  a Twitter first strategy so you could have a Twitter first strategy that would be slightly
• 1:26:08
  different than my strategy where you want every idea to go viral and you could be a little bit more
• 1:26:15
  like Sahil like Sahil Bloom where he liked he writes his long threads that's a that's a very much
• 1:26:20
  a Twitter first strategy I'm using Twitter as a testing ground I use threads as well as a testing
• 1:26:26
  ground for all my other content for my newsletter for my short form solo 10 minute YouTube videos
• 1:26:33
  for my stuff on Instagram it just depends again on what your focus is Twitter I focus for me yeah
• 1:26:39
  I like Twitter and Twitter as like a test because like just so low stakes and that's it it is low
• 1:26:46
  stakes and I also look at the like listen I look at analytics and I I know that not a lot of
• 1:26:54
  my email subscribers are coming from Twitter I know that not a lot of my YouTube uh subs
• 1:27:01
  are coming from Twitter so if if a significantly higher portion were then maybe I would spend a little
• 1:27:08
  bit more time on having a Twitter first strategy but that's not where they're coming from like I'm
• 1:27:12
  using I mean I can tell on Instagram because I have the option to like auto DM when a new podcast
• 1:27:20
  goes up I can auto DM people that write a certain word like using many chat right you write a certain
• 1:27:25
  word you auto DM them the link to the episode or I also have when I post one of these squares
• 1:27:32
  with a tweet in it for like for better description I also have an auto DM that automatically sends
• 1:27:38
  people a link to sign up for my newsletter and a lot of people are signing up my newsletter
• 1:27:41
  through these tweet quotes getting an auto DM into their DMs with a link to sub so yeah I mean
• 1:27:49
  everyone has their own workflow to figure out what you're optimizing for perfect um yeah thank you
• 1:27:57
  so much I I think you're gonna see like uh like a year later when you look back from this day you're
• 1:28:03
  gonna see like my podcast started going from I hope so this day I hope so I really hope so for what
• 1:28:09
  the hell out of it I really hope so that you have the amazing I'm happy if if any of my ideas helped
• 1:28:17
  thank you so much for your time thank you for all the advice and wisdom you share with us my
• 1:28:23
  pleasure um other than sending people to your podcast where should where can people fight you
• 1:28:32
  um social is pretty easy every handle is at scott d clary so that's every handle and then the
• 1:28:38
  podcast is success or podcast dot com and they can find everything in there awesome I'll put
• 1:28:44
  everything in the show notes thank you so much for your time again thank you everyone for
• 1:28:48
  this thing and I'll see y'all next week