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Mini: SIDS · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do Mini. I'm your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: host Abraham and I'm Shane. We are a psychology podcast.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We talk about all of the things that humans and
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: non human animals do, and sometimes we talk about the
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: unfortunate things that happen to humans that we can learn
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: from and try and prevent those unfortunate things from happening.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and so on this many we are talking about
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  Speaker 2: sudden infant death syndrome or SIDS, which felt like, for
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  Speaker 2: a long time, at least when I was growing up,
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  Speaker 2: was like a really scary It is very scary, but
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  Speaker 2: like it felt like it was much scarier than when
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  Speaker 2: we were kids.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll talk about all of those things before
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  Speaker 1: we jump into our main content. I just want to
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  Speaker 1: let you know that if you are joining us for
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: the first time, then welcome and thank you for being here.
• 1:05
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  Speaker 1: you enjoy what you hear today. And if you are returning,
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  Speaker 1: us there, and I'll talk some more about the ways
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  Speaker 1: that you can support us at the end of our
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: full discussion today. And when I say full, I actually
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: mean short, because this is a mini in our minis
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: are sort of short form discussions that come out on
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Mondays and we just get into a short dive into
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  Speaker 1: a topic and then we get out of there, and
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  Speaker 1: then we'll come back next week for another one, and
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: then on Wednesday we'll do our full length releases. And
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: before we start, we unfortunately are recording this just before
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: releasing it. But that does mean I get to shout
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: out and wish a happy ninety eighth birthday to my
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  Speaker 1: grandmother in law.
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  Speaker 2: Oh I love that happy birthday.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, So, as we said, we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: sudden infant death syndrome. Is there anything that you'd like
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  Speaker 1: to add before we jump into our topic? Am I
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  Speaker 1: missing anything yet? No?
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  Speaker 2: So far, I think we're ready to go in. I
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  Speaker 2: mean sometimes this is called cot death or crib death. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: you'll hear those terms, and this feels like it's probably
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  Speaker 2: going to align better with maybe some Halloween related episodes.
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  Speaker 2: But this isn't fun. Yeah, so, and Halloween episodes are
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  Speaker 2: generally more fun and more you know, lighthearted, So we
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  Speaker 2: felt like this was maybe a better time for it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Halloween is like creepy, upbeat And although this
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  Speaker 1: does have to do with death, which is often in
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  Speaker 1: the macabre theme of celebrations around Halloween, this is just
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  Speaker 1: it's just sad, and so we want to save our
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  Speaker 1: fun stuff for Halloween and we're just going to talk
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  Speaker 1: about this now. So sudden infant deaths, as the name
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  Speaker 1: would imply, this is an unexpect did and sudden, which
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  Speaker 1: those two terms may be redundant, but I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: It's unexpected in sudden, the unexpected sudden death of an infant,
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  Speaker 1: often during sleep. SIDS usually happens to babies who are
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  Speaker 1: less than a year old, who otherwise seem to be
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  Speaker 1: pretty healthy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And authosies are generally recommended and often mandated for
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  Speaker 2: SIDS cases, hence how the label is applied, So this
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  Speaker 2: is usually applied post mortem, not as a observable cause
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  Speaker 2: immediately or like a like an illness that you might
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  Speaker 2: diagnose before the passing of the child.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, a child dying is very serious. I think you know,
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  Speaker 1: a couple hundred years ago it was just expected, but
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  Speaker 1: now it is not. We expect children to live into adulthood,
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  Speaker 1: and so we treat those things very seriously and we
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  Speaker 1: ensure that it is not something nefarious like neglect or
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  Speaker 1: maltreatment or something like that, right, which we definitely need
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  Speaker 1: to ensure is not happening to children. So they investigate
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  Speaker 1: these and that is how they could determine that this
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  Speaker 1: was sudden Infant death syndrome or SIDS. Now by definition,
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  Speaker 1: because of the name itself, it implies the causes for
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  Speaker 1: SIDS are mostly unknown. The general consensus is that there
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  Speaker 1: are likely some underlying genetic predispositions that make some children
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  Speaker 1: more vulnerable to SIDS. However, there are also some known
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  Speaker 1: sort of risk factors that have been identified that would
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  Speaker 1: at least suggest like, here are some who are at
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  Speaker 1: a higher risk level for potentially dying of this, and
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  Speaker 1: there is a public health campaign that has reduced cases
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  Speaker 1: of SIDS that we'll get to at the end of
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  Speaker 1: our discussion.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so, just for the sake of just understanding
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  Speaker 2: how prevalent this is. There are about thirty four SIDS
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  Speaker 2: deaths per one hundred thousand berths, and there's actually not
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  Speaker 2: guaranteed prevention, but there are some factors that we can
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  Speaker 2: look at and some prevention strategies that we can help
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  Speaker 2: use to reduce risks that might occur for young babies.
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  Speaker 1: Some of these things we can do nothing about, they
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  Speaker 1: just kind of happen, but some of them we can,
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  Speaker 1: and so we've sort of categorized these as physical risk factors,
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  Speaker 1: which are mostly stuff that we can't do things about,
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  Speaker 1: pregnancy risk factors, environmental risk factors, and sleep risk factors,
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  Speaker 1: and they kind of go from like least preventable to
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  Speaker 1: most preventable in a way. So we'll go ahead and
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  Speaker 1: get into those. So as far as our physical risk
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  Speaker 1: factors are concerned, one of the main ones is has
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  Speaker 1: to do with how children are born and if they're
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  Speaker 1: born with any kind of brain defect. And not all
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  Speaker 1: brain defects are going to necessarily increase risk or lead
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  Speaker 1: to SIDS, but there are particular ones that may affect
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  Speaker 1: the brain structures that are responsible for things like waking
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  Speaker 1: up and for like maintaining breathing and so if there's
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  Speaker 1: any defects around those that will increase the potential that
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  Speaker 1: you could have SIDS happen. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Premature birth or low birth rate also contributes or as
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  Speaker 2: a factor so relating to brain development, because they may
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  Speaker 2: not have a fully developed brain because they are born
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  Speaker 2: prematurely or they have low birth rate. In the underdeveloped
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  Speaker 2: brain that is responsible for controlling breathing or sleeping may
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  Speaker 2: not be as efficient as a fully developed brain, and
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  Speaker 2: so there's some some challenges there.
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  Speaker 1: There is also respiratory infection, which makes a lot of sense.
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  Speaker 1: This is particularly around illness, So if a baby has
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  Speaker 1: a cold, COVID, RSV, or some other respiratory illness, that
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  Speaker 1: also increases the risk for the potential for SIDS.
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  Speaker 2: Also, a history of apnea or other not sleeping or
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  Speaker 2: sleep disruption types of conditions, those can contribute as well.
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  Speaker 1: Interestingly being as signed mail at birth, but I think
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  Speaker 1: when you're an infant, I don't know how often it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't go that way. But anyway, boys are statistically slightly
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  Speaker 1: more likely than girls to die of SIDS.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, this is most likely to happen with infants between
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  Speaker 2: two and four months old.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's actually a whole myth about this going like
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  Speaker 1: well into childhood. It's really pretty much just inside that window.
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  Speaker 1: It could happen anytime up to a year, maybe even
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  Speaker 1: like a year and a month, but after thirteen months,
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  Speaker 1: kids are generally really not considered to be like it's
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  Speaker 1: not considered a health threat for children. So that's just
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  Speaker 1: the window really to look out for. Interestingly, ethnicity seems
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  Speaker 1: to have a correlation to this for reasons that nobody knows,
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  Speaker 1: Like we just don't know why this is the case.
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  Speaker 1: African Americans, Indigenous people, and Alaska Natives are slightly more
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  Speaker 1: likely to experience SIDS.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and being a twin or sibling of a child
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  Speaker 2: who died of SIDS also increases that risk, and that
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  Speaker 2: actually implies maybe there's a genetic relation or a genetic
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  Speaker 2: predisposition to having that condition.
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  Speaker 1: I mostly saw this as it related to like being familial,
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  Speaker 1: but I even saw like just how a twin by
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  Speaker 1: itself as a factor. But I only saw that in
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  Speaker 1: one place. So that one, I'm not totally sure on sure.
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  Speaker 1: I am sure that we don't want to play ads,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: but we're going to do it.
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  Speaker 2: So here they are, Yeah, here we go.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So we outlined some of the physical risk factors,
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  Speaker 1: and there's actually more of those than anything. But we'll
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  Speaker 1: start getting into some of the other known risk factors,
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  Speaker 1: and we should probably talk at some point about what
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  Speaker 1: risk factor means as it pertains to these, But it
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  Speaker 1: really just says like these are things that have are
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  Speaker 1: more likely to be present in these cases and suggests
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  Speaker 1: that they at least predict that this might be the case.
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  Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that it causes it at all, and
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  Speaker 1: it very well could mean that there's no association whatsoever.
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  Speaker 1: They just happen to have noticed the parallels, if you will, right,
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  Speaker 1: All right, So pregnancy risk factors. Teen pregnancy is actually
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  Speaker 1: a huge one. This is so children of teen mother
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  Speaker 1: are more likely to die of SIDS and I saw
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  Speaker 1: this in many places a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, Also little or no pre needle care or a
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  Speaker 2: lack of other medical care during pregnancy can actually increase
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  Speaker 2: the factors as well.
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  Speaker 1: And then exposure to cigarettes, drugs, or alcohols during pregnancy
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  Speaker 1: are also related and known risk factors.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are also environmental risks and this is going
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  Speaker 2: to be maybe another argument for why we shouldn't smoke,
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  Speaker 2: but exposure to secondhand smoking after birth can also contribute
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  Speaker 2: to SIDS.
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  Speaker 1: Importantly, I saw overheating, and I saw that many many places,
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  Speaker 1: and in one place I also saw being too cold.
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  Speaker 1: So there's kind of a sweet spot in there, But
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  Speaker 1: overheating was the most commonly cited one that I saw
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  Speaker 1: that was one of the environmental risk factors. Just being
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  Speaker 1: too hot.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and babies who are bottle fed instead of breastfed,
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  Speaker 2: there's an increased factor there, though I will say again
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  Speaker 2: we're talking about a circumstance or situation where just because
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  Speaker 2: of baby is bottle fed does not mean that they
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  Speaker 2: are going to experience or die from SIDS. It's just
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  Speaker 2: one of those things where it's like, this is a
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  Speaker 2: present factor that may or may not contribute to the SIDS.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And importantly here it's like, because there are a
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  Speaker 1: lot of conditions under which a baby can't be breastfed,
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  Speaker 1: it happens, so like, again, this is one that can
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  Speaker 1: be kind of outside of our control. But a thing
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  Speaker 1: to know about this is this is specifically when it's
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  Speaker 1: instead of breastfeeding. So if you're breastfeeding and bottle feeding
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  Speaker 1: not a risk factor. It's just if it's only bottle
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  Speaker 1: feeding and there's no breastfeeding and again it's just a
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  Speaker 1: risk factor, it's not causal. There are a lot of
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  Speaker 1: conditions under which this happens. For the most part, we
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  Speaker 1: understand bottle feeding to be entirely safe, right exactly, all right.
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  Speaker 1: There are also the sleep factors, and we save this
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  Speaker 1: one for last. Again, this I think is in the
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  Speaker 1: realm of probably the most preventable, but also one where
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  Speaker 1: we know a lot about this. Because of the commonality
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  Speaker 1: of sids during sleep. Like most cases of sids occur
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  Speaker 1: during sleep, a lot of research has been done on
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  Speaker 1: the conditions around sleep as it relates to sids. Let's
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  Speaker 1: talk through the four sort of big ones here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, one of them is sleeping, having the baby sleep
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  Speaker 2: on their side or on their stomach. That can cause
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  Speaker 2: breathing issues. So if the baby is on their side
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  Speaker 2: or on their stomach, they may have a harder or
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: more difficult time breathing and that could lead to death.
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  Speaker 1: Another one is sleeping on a very soft surface. This
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  Speaker 1: is not to say that they need to sleep on
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  Speaker 1: like spikes or cement, just that their bedding should be
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  Speaker 1: somewhat firm and not something they can kind of sink
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  Speaker 1: down into.
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  Speaker 2: Right, like more like a temper pedic foam versus a
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: you know, something like a goose down the type of
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: you know, that's not a formal recommendation. That's just like
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  Speaker 2: kind of as I'm thinking, like maybe something that's more
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  Speaker 2: foam and has like a spongy has like a little
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  Speaker 2: bit more pushback.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, something that it can have a
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  Speaker 1: little give, Like it's not that it's like rock hard,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: but right has a little give. But it's also not
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  Speaker 1: something that they'll like sink down into really right, right, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: Sharing a bed can contribute, although sharing a room.
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  Speaker 2: Can actually reduce risks. So co sleeping can be a real,
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  Speaker 2: a real risk here.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, just something to keep in mind. And again we're
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  Speaker 1: not telling people how to live their lives. We're just
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  Speaker 1: outlining the risk factors here, right, all right, And then
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: allowing the baby to sleep with blankets, pillows or other
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  Speaker 1: soft objects or anything that's like a cord along skinny
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  Speaker 1: object also are also associated with sids.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that sounds scary, So let's spend a little bit
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  Speaker 2: time talking about how we can prevent this from happening,
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  Speaker 2: and like what's really in our control. I think it's
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  Speaker 2: really important to remember that some of the stuff is
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: going to be completely out of our control and we
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  Speaker 2: can't stop this from happening, but there are some things
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  Speaker 2: that we can do to remove risks and make it
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  Speaker 2: so that that baby is less likely to experience SIDS.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, just thinking about like the risk factors we've already mentioned,
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  Speaker 1: trying to reduce those where we can can help. But
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  Speaker 1: one of the most important ones that is often given
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  Speaker 1: is just to ensure that the baby is sleeping on
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  Speaker 1: their back, Like that alone is a huge simple change
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  Speaker 1: that you can make that's likely to reduce the prevalence
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  Speaker 1: of SIDS.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Another one is making sure that you keep the
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: sleeping space clear of superfluous objects like blankets, pillows, stuffed animals,
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  Speaker 2: soft things. And we're talking about a baby who's a
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: little bit older, so swaddling the baby is also something
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: that you're not going to really do. You might do
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: that very early, like we're talking newborn infant, but we're
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: not talking like kind of like you still want to
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: be careful with swaddling while they're sleeping specifically.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, and remember getting into that two to four
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  Speaker 1: months range is where the major danger seems to lie,
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  Speaker 1: although up to a year, right, and then making sure
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  Speaker 1: the baby doesn't get too hot by ensuring that they
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: stay pretty cool at night. Again, you don't want to
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  Speaker 1: freeze them, but like they just need to not overheat.
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  Speaker 2: Right, sleeping near the baby but not sharing a bed.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: That way there's a rapid response time where you can
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: kind of hear be around the baby. Like that's going
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: to be really important.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that one was mentioned multiple places. Is like
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  Speaker 1: a way to prevent this is to like have them nearby,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: but don't keep them in your bed. Right, So for
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: all kind of a lot of the reasons we've already mentioned.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Really interestingly, I saw to use a pacifier before bedtime
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: or nap time. Again, avoid one that has a cord
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: that could get wrapped around their neck. But just a
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: pacifier by itself seems to actually reduce the reduced sids.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, giving your baby tummy time while they're awake is
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: really good. There's a lot of benefits for this that
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: include just like muscle strength and core strength that like
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: in next strength as well. So it's just a generally
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: good thing to do. But this will also be a
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: preventive measure.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it also helps give some like practice
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: with like building lung capacity and breathing and like long
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: strength that sort of thing. Yeah, as we mentioned, if
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: you can breastfeed, that seems to be a helpful thing
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: to help reduce risk. Again, there are a lot of
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: reasons why people can't do this, but if you can,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: it can help reduce risk.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, shame if you can't. It's just one of
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: those things that is just a factor. That's that's important
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: to note. Yeah, avoid smoking, drinking, and doing drugs during pregnancy.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good general rule for lots of
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: other reasons besides SIDS, but you know, just it's one thing.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: And then also avoiding poking once the baby, or at
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: least smoking around the baby while they're born, but smoking
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: probably after they're born, I would avoid as well, Right,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: all right, I would guess I would call this a myth.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: There was a concern that people have raised about vaccines
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: causing SIDS. So no vaccines cause adults. Not only do
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: vaccines definitely not cause sids, but they've actually been shown
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: and included as one of the strategies to effectively prevent
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: SIDS from happening at the very least, because they prevent
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: communicable and preventable diseases that would lead to respiratory issues,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: but for other reasons as well. So vaccines are are
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: good and will keep your child alive.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, So there is something that we want to
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: talk about, you know, a big project that exists that
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: is arguably pretty helpful for preventing SIDS. But we are
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: going to talk a little bit of trash about the
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: current administration right after these ads.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: We're back. This is called Project Safe to Sleep. And
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three, SIDS death rates reached the highest
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: ever recorded rate of one hundred and twenty nine deaths
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: per one hundred thousand berths. And if you'll remember, we
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: saw that it was down to like thirty four deaths
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: per one hundred thousand berths. Now, so anyway, this at
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: this rate that was we saw this just really unacceptably
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: large number. In nineteen ninety four, the federal government, in
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: partnership with several private agencies, launched this Safe to Sleep
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: public education campaign focused specifically on preventing SIDS by educating
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: the public about sleep practices and like preventions tools that
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: they can adopt. Yeah, the campaign.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Let people know about placing infants on their backs, unswaddled
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: in a clear sleeping space and According to their data,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: this simple education campaign led to a whopping fifty percent
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: decrease in SIDS, or possibly more, as the rate is
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: now about twenty five percent of what it was years ago.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: So like we're seeing that this was seemingly an effective
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: intervention or like an educational campaign that helped reduce these incidences.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: And man, what a simple, beautiful way, like what an
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: awesome return on investment to like just spend a little
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: money on an educational campaign and just saving thousands and
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: thousands of lives right in doing so, Right, that's awesome
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: money well spent. And yet the Trump administration has shut
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: down the agency responsible for maintaining the Safe to Sleep campaign,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: so that is fairly pretty much gone now. Now that
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: being said, the education has been fairly institutionalized and broadly available,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: so we may expect to see an increase of SIDS
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: over the next few years. It's unclear, Like, maybe it's
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: so in the zeitgeist now that like we don't necessarily
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: need to have that funded. But my guess is that
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: without frequent reminders, that that kind of institutional law knowledge
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: might be lost over time and replaced with instead magical
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: thinking and conspiracy theories. So I really do predict that
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: we'll see an increase in SIDS following this. RFK Junior
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: could not be happier about cutting this. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: I would actually kind of expect him to recommend wrapping
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: a baby's face and cellophane. Don't do that, by the way,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: in case that wasn't clear, bad idea. I'm sure that
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: he is thrilled to pieces about them cutting funding for
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: a prevention strategy that would save kids' lives.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, because, as we've established on the show, I
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: think the general, the general slogan of the current administration
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: is we hate kids.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, kill them all.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what they're doing. So and this is just
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: another example of a simple education program that has saved
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: thousands of lives, and here we are now just cutting
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: that program because of whatever whatever agenda they've got, you know.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Unfortunately, Well this is probably the longest many ever,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: So we should get out of here. I said, I
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: was going to talk more about how to support us,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: but we're so long that I think I'm gonna skip
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: that and say that if you do join us on Patreon,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: you'll get some bonus things, and we appreciate Andy and
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: all support that you can provide, and even if you
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: have left us a rating and review, you can do
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: that again and that still helps us out, which is great.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: So head over and do that, and then telling people
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: is a great way to get out. If you'd like
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: to email us and tell us your thoughts on this
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: topic or anything else we have ever mentioned or even
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: asked us to talk about something in particular, you can
• 19:20
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• 19:24
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• 19:27
  Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. Otherwise, I would
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: like to say thank you so much to our patron supporters,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: thank you so much to my team of people without
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: whom I could not do this podcast, and thanks to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: you all for listening. Shane, is there anything that I
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: forgot or that you would like to add before we
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: say goodbye? I got nothing today, all right, thank you
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: all for listening. This is Abraham, this is Shane. We're out.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you've been listening to Why we do what
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: we do.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: day