Latest / Balance of Power / Trump, Xi Thrust Fierce US-China AI Rivalry Into Spotlight

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Trump, Xi Thrust Fierce US-China AI Rivalry Into Spotlight · Balance of Power

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Speaker 5: We are zeroed in on interest rates in oil today,
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Speaker 5: Obviously, what's happening in the market straight through the close
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Speaker 5: and have full details for you on the late edition
0:35
Speaker 5: of Balance of Power on your drive home.
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Speaker 1: That's at 5 p.m. Eastern time.
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Speaker 5: We start, though, at the White House, where President Trump
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Speaker 5: and President Xi kicked off the summit in official form
0:46
Speaker 5: after Xi arrived last evening at Joint Base Andrews, complete
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Speaker 5: with a greeting from the president of the United States,
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Speaker 5: something we've never seen Trump do. Full military reception on
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Speaker 5: the South Lawn earlier today. The band was playing on
0:59
Speaker 5: the roof of the West Wing. And we did hear
1:01
Speaker 5: remarks from these two. None of it was televised, though,
1:04
Speaker 5: because at that point, press credentials had not yet been
1:07
Speaker 5: restored to those reporters who.
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Speaker 1: Were kicked off campus.
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Speaker 5: CNN, MS Now and Politico, if you're with us on
1:14
Speaker 5: Bloomberg TV, we're seeing some images now from the arrival
1:18
Speaker 5: ceremony last evening at Joint Base Andrews.
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Speaker 1: Let's go to the White House now.
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Speaker 5: With our Washington correspondent, Tyler Kendall, who's been watching all
1:26
Speaker 5: of this unfold, and it does appear, Tyler, you've got
1:29
Speaker 5: a little more company today on Pebble Beach.
1:31
Speaker 1: What's the latest?
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Speaker 3: Well, Joe, we got a confirmation in the form of
1:36
Speaker 3: a legal filing from the Trump administration that they have
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Speaker 3: indeed restored access to the journalists from the three impacted
1:43
Speaker 3: outlets after President Trump moved to bar them from coverage
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Speaker 3: of the White House. I have to say, I was
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Speaker 3: actually standing here and I saw the journalists walk in
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Speaker 3: to the White House through the Northwest gates where we
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Speaker 3: normally go through. But it was when the camera operators
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Speaker 3: and their camera equipment was able to be cleared into
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Speaker 3: the White House, that there was actually a big round
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Speaker 3: of applause here on the White House North Lawn, as
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Speaker 3: many members of the White House press corps were standing
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Speaker 3: there in solidarity. Now, we should say that this doesn't
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Speaker 3: necessarily mean that the legal battle is over. The judge's
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Speaker 3: ruling here is only on a temporary basis barring the
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Speaker 3: Trump administration from barring these journalists' access, while the outlet's
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Speaker 3: lawsuit proceeds through the legal system.
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Speaker 5: We've had some news come out of this visit so far, Tyler.
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Speaker 5: I'd like to ask you about deliverables to the extent
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Speaker 5: that we know about them. An extension of a trade
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Speaker 5: truce is what we have to get our hands around today,
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Speaker 5: but it's much shorter in duration than either side.
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Speaker 1: Wanted, isn't it?
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Speaker 3: It is a two-month extension, which will bring the deadline, Joe,
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Speaker 3: to January 10th. We should say that the expectation had
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Speaker 3: been that it would be somewhere between three and six months.
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Speaker 1: We had the U.S.
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Speaker 3: Trade Representative Jameson Greer tell Bloomberg Television that just days ago.
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Speaker 2: But even that.
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Speaker 3: Is shorter than what we know Beijing was pushing for.
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Speaker 3: China had wanted to see this trade truce extended for
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Speaker 3: two years, which would cover the duration of the Trump administration.
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Speaker 3: That goes to show that there is still these brewing
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Speaker 3: tensions underneath what is a focus on stability in the
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Speaker 3: US-China relationship during this visit by Xi Jinping. We know
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Speaker 3: the US is pushing for some other deliverables to come
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Speaker 3: out of this, including further Chinese purchase commitments when it
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Speaker 3: comes to agricultural products. China is only about halfway there
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Speaker 3: in terms of purchase commitments related to soybeans for this year.
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Speaker 3: They are also falling short when it comes to another
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Speaker 3: promise to purchase an additional $ 17 billion worth of goods
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Speaker 3: in the agricultural sector. We'll have to see what else
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Speaker 3: we may get. Perhaps the firmest deliverable that we will
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Speaker 3: have is that the two sides commit to meet again.
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Speaker 3: We are still waiting for confirmation that President Trump will
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Speaker 3: travel to China for the APEC summer. summit in November
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Speaker 3: or that Xi Jinping will come back to the U.S.
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Speaker 3: for the G20 summit in December that's being held in Miami.
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Speaker 3: Those are some of the tangibles that we're looking for here.
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Speaker 3: Whether or not we get into some of those more
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Speaker 3: thorny issues, whether that be export licenses related to critical
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Speaker 3: minerals or China's imports of Iranian crude remains to be seen.
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Speaker 1: All right, Tyler.
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Speaker 5: Also, questions about AI. Some of the initial comments were
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Speaker 5: about AI. We'll see if there's any talk of a
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Speaker 5: framework agreement, deconfliction line, or anything else that's been reported
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Speaker 5: ahead of this summit. Tyler Kendall, thank you so much.
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Speaker 5: Bloomberg's Washington correspondent on the North Lawn of the White House.
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Speaker 5: There's also a big question about rare earths, very high
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Speaker 5: on Washington's list here. But we want to walk through
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Speaker 5: all of this with Senator Michael Bennett, who I told
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Speaker 5: you was going to be joining us today. His triumphant
4:42
Speaker 5: return to Bloomberg TV and radio. The Democrat from Colorado
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Speaker 5: is a member of the Senate Finance as well. Intel
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Speaker 5: Committee's and is a key foreign policy voice around this summit. Senator,
4:52
Speaker 5: it's great to see you. Welcome back to Bloomberg. Do
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Speaker 5: you expect any deliverables from this reception?
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Beyond what Tyler just mentioned, we got a two
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Speaker 1: months extension.
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Speaker 2: Is that it?
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Speaker 6: I don't think there's going to be much more than that.
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Speaker 6: I think President Trump would rather have the chaos and
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Speaker 6: confusion of something where he can, say, check in two
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Speaker 6: months later than actually do what we need to do,
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Speaker 6: which is, for example, make sure that China follows through
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Speaker 6: on its commitment with respect to soybeans, which your correspondent
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Speaker 6: was just talking about. They have not honored that deal,
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Speaker 6: even as President Trump has been willing to open up
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Speaker 6: RIP on our semiconductors to the Chinese. I think it's
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Speaker 6: very disappointing, but it's what I've come to expect from
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Speaker 6: a president who's, I think, pretty erratic when it comes
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Speaker 6: to these negotiations.
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Speaker 5: Well, I'll tell you, the conditions surrounding this summit were
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Speaker 5: certainly deliberate when you consider the flourish that we saw
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Speaker 5: on the South Lawn today, the fetting of Xi at
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Speaker 5: an opulent state dinner this evening. Even some Republicans are
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Speaker 5: crowing about this, Senator, the fact that the president met
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Speaker 5: Xi at Andrews. Is the communist leader of China deserving
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Speaker 5: of this treatment?
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Speaker 6: I think it's fine to treat Xi Jinping with the
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Speaker 6: respect that he's due as the head of China. It
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Speaker 6: is obviously a world-class competitor of ours in this country,
6:20
Speaker 6: so I have no issue with that. The issue I
6:22
Speaker 6: have is with his taking advantage of us at the
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Speaker 6: negotiating table because we're not showing up with a strategic view,
6:30
Speaker 6: either on those agricultural exports I mentioned yesterday, or in
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Speaker 6: a position of strength. Think about Donald Trump's choice of
6:38
Speaker 6: war in Iran and what that has done for Beijing,
6:41
Speaker 6: what that has done to solidify their interests not just
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Speaker 6: in the region of the Middle East but around the world.
6:48
Speaker 6: Xi Jinping is meeting with our president at a time
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Speaker 6: when he knows that we have shot off our ballistic
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Speaker 6: missiles to a degree in Iran that has actually left
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Speaker 6: us exposed to Xi in the Pacific. That's what he's
7:04
Speaker 6: coming to the White House thinking about. And I think
7:09
Speaker 6: what the American people are concerned about right now is
7:12
Speaker 6: less Donald Trump's building projects in Washington, D.C., than the
7:16
Speaker 6: fact that they're dealing with 7 percent interest rates on
7:20
Speaker 6: their home loans, the fact that the cost of diesel
7:23
Speaker 6: now is over $ 6 at a time when our farmers
7:26
Speaker 6: and ranchers are trying to do their last work before
7:30
Speaker 6: the winter sets in. And I think they wish they
7:33
Speaker 6: had a president that was focused more on that than
7:36
Speaker 6: throwing reporters out of the White House and the glamour
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Speaker 6: of his dinner with the president of China.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: Well, you went there. I want to ask you about
7:46
Speaker 5: your AI legislation. But because you mentioned diesel, what do
7:50
Speaker 5: you think of this idea of an export ban? We've
7:53
Speaker 5: been asking a lot of lawmakers and sometimes I'm surprised
7:56
Speaker 5: by the answers, whether it's Democrat or Republican. You know,
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Speaker 5: the American Petroleum Institute says that would just end up
8:02
Speaker 5: making all prices higher.
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Speaker 1: What do you think?
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Speaker 6: I think there's a lot of evidence that it might
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Speaker 6: drive all prices higher. What Donald Trump should never have
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Speaker 6: done was attack Iran with no strategy. I mean, the
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Speaker 6: intelligence community told him that he couldn't remove the mullahs
8:20
Speaker 6: from the air. They told him, you can't take out
8:23
Speaker 6: their nuclear weapons from the air. They told him that
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Speaker 6: they would replace— I' m not making it up. This is what
8:29
Speaker 6: they told him. They told him that they would replace—
8:32
Speaker 6: their leadership with a more radical version of their leadership
8:35
Speaker 6: that was more attached to developing nuclear weapons. They told
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Speaker 6: him that they would attack these sea lanes and that
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Speaker 6: they would attack our bases in the region as well
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Speaker 6: as those of our allies. That is the cost of
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Speaker 6: this war that Donald Trump has taken, this war of
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Speaker 6: choice that he has pursued in Iran. And I think
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Speaker 6: the American people are going to demonstrate in these midterm elections,
9:01
Speaker 6: that we want to go in a different direction.
9:04
Speaker 2: And maybe in.
9:05
Speaker 6: That direction, we will find energy policies that lead to
9:08
Speaker 6: lower diesel prices, not higher diesel prices, to lower interest rates,
9:13
Speaker 6: not higher interest rates.
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Speaker 5: We understand, Senator, that China is in possession of F-35
9:22
Speaker 5: stealth fighter parts. While you have your Intel Committee hat on,
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Speaker 5: Have you heard anything about this? Can you confirm these reports?
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Speaker 5: It was a shipment from Australia, apparently, that was somehow intercepted.
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Speaker 5: President Xi has that on his mind as well today
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Speaker 5: at the White House, doesn't he?
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Speaker 2: No question.
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Speaker 6: They have been and they are ripping off the IP
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Speaker 6: of the United States. I'm not going to confirm that
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Speaker 6: specific thing, but ripping off the IP of the United
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Speaker 6: States for years and years and years, including our defense materials.
9:54
Speaker 6: I'll give Donald Trump credit.
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Speaker 2: I will give him credit.
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Speaker 6: He had a sense that the relationship with China was
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Speaker 6: one where China... had taken serious advantage of the United States.
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Speaker 6: He had a real sense of that when he came
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Speaker 6: to Washington, and I think that was a positive thing. Unfortunately,
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Speaker 6: I think he's played his hand very poorly, and it's
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Speaker 6: put Xi Jinping in an even stronger position than he
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Speaker 6: was when Donald Trump came to Washington, D.C.
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Speaker 5: Well, he's trying deliberately to play the right hand on AI.
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Speaker 5: And you've got an important piece of legislation that's trying
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Speaker 5: to get to this.
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Speaker 1: We've had a robust debate here.
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Speaker 5: And the president speaking on Truth Social earlier says that
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Speaker 5: America and China see eye to eye. We're taking our
10:42
Speaker 5: hands off the wheel here. This is not a matter
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Speaker 5: of regulation. He says we have something called the DOJ.
10:47
Speaker 5: You have something that would propose a new federal agency
10:51
Speaker 5: to prevent what you call catastrophic AI risks and regulate
10:55
Speaker 5: big tech.
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Speaker 2: How would it work?
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Speaker 6: First of all, I don't think there's anyone in America
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Speaker 6: who thinks that China and the U.S. think eye-to-eye on AI,
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Speaker 6: except for President Trump. What I've said is that we
11:09
Speaker 6: need to have a cop.
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Speaker 2: On the beat here.
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Speaker 6: We have nobody whose day job is to represent the
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Speaker 6: American people with respect to the developers of AI, for
11:18
Speaker 6: that matter, of social media. We should have an independent
11:22
Speaker 6: agency of experts that come here, just like we set
11:26
Speaker 6: up in the early part of the century to be
11:29
Speaker 6: able to do the regulatory work that's needed. Congress cannot
11:33
Speaker 6: get out of its own way.
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Speaker 2: We've proven that.
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Speaker 6: We will never pass a bill to meaningfully deal with this.
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Speaker 6: And the states can't do it by themselves. We need
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Speaker 6: a thoughtful approach. that will come from a regulatory agency
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Speaker 6: that will survive from one presidency to the next, and
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Speaker 6: that's got the teeth to be able to find these
11:53
Speaker 6: guys if they are pursuing models that could threaten, for example,
11:59
Speaker 6: the extinction of humanity. I mean, this is something that
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Speaker 6: we have to grapple with.
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Speaker 1: We have to get a hold of it.
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Speaker 6: And it doesn't surprise me that our current structures of
12:10
Speaker 6: government are not set up to deal with it. This
12:13
Speaker 6: is new, just like airplanes were once new, just like
12:16
Speaker 6: nuclear weapons, armaments were once new. We need an agency
12:21
Speaker 6: just like we have for those other important changes in
12:25
Speaker 6: our economy. that's focused on this 24-7.
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Speaker 5: I'm looking back at the president's post here, just to
12:33
Speaker 5: be accurate, Senator.
12:34
Speaker 1: He says, big day with President Xi of China.
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Speaker 5: Superintelligence, which he calls AI, will be a big topic
12:40
Speaker 5: of discussion, but I want to leave it exactly where
12:43
Speaker 5: it is. That is China's position also. Our guardrail is
12:47
Speaker 5: the DOJ, and he signs it President DJT. As long
12:51
Speaker 5: as President Trump is in office, if that's going to
12:53
Speaker 5: be his standpoint, How do you possibly get this legislation,
12:56
Speaker 5: even if it passes Congress, to become a law?
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Speaker 1: And if that's the case, what happens in two years
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Speaker 1: of no guardrails?
13:05
Speaker 6: That's an incredibly naive position for him to take. You know,
13:09
Speaker 6: Xi Jinping has shown that he is willing— You'll remember this.
13:13
Speaker 6: In the old days, it's equal opportunity. In the old days,
13:16
Speaker 6: the Clintons used to talk about how the Internet was
13:19
Speaker 6: going to democratize China.
13:21
Speaker 1: You remember that?
13:22
Speaker 6: That the Internet, you couldn't possibly resist the power of
13:24
Speaker 6: the Internet. Instead, what's happened, and Xi Jinping has supercharged this,
13:29
Speaker 6: Instead of what's happened, the People's Republic of China has
13:34
Speaker 6: supercharged their use of the Internet to concretize their surveillance state,
13:40
Speaker 6: to try to expand their surveillance state around the world,
13:43
Speaker 6: which they are doing in many places. they are going
13:46
Speaker 6: to use AI to turbocharge that. From their point of view,
13:50
Speaker 6: they're not concerned about a question about how humanity exists
13:54
Speaker 6: side by side with this technology. They see it as
13:57
Speaker 6: a way of controlling their population. We have a very
14:00
Speaker 6: different question in America, and that is how this is
14:04
Speaker 6: going to survive and thrive in the context of our democracy.
14:08
Speaker 6: How are we going to protect the American consumer, who,
14:11
Speaker 6: by the way, we still haven't even had a negotiation
14:13
Speaker 6: with Zuckerberg over the social media that has poisoned the
14:18
Speaker 6: teenage experiences of our kids all across the country. We
14:22
Speaker 6: still haven't done that. But how are we going to
14:24
Speaker 6: protect the American people while at the same time we
14:28
Speaker 6: preserve American innovation? And that's the job of this Senate
14:33
Speaker 6: working together. That's the job of the American people working together.
14:37
Speaker 6: I hope very much this question is litigated, not just
14:40
Speaker 6: in this election that's coming up, but in the next
14:43
Speaker 6: presidential election as we make the decision about whether we
14:47
Speaker 6: want a president who's somebody who enriches himself on crypto
14:51
Speaker 6: while he's in the White House, whether we want a
14:53
Speaker 6: president who's throwing reporters out of the White House, notwithstanding
14:58
Speaker 6: the First Amendment, who's making the Justice Department into his
15:02
Speaker 6: own legal apparatus. These are the questions the American people
15:06
Speaker 6: will take up.
15:08
Speaker 5: Well, I've been looking forward to seeing you, Senator. Like
15:10
Speaker 5: I said, it's good to have you back as part
15:11
Speaker 5: of our conversation. Let's not have it take so long
15:14
Speaker 5: next time. Senator Michael Bennett, Colorado, stay with us on
15:17
Speaker 5: Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this.
15:23
Speaker 4: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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15:42
Speaker 5: Connecting the dots between Washington and Wall Street has actually
15:45
Speaker 5: been awfully easy lately because the headlines that are coming
15:47
Speaker 5: from here in the capital are frequently driving prices in
15:51
Speaker 5: any number of markets, whether it's oil, interest rates, or yes, stocks.
15:55
Speaker 5: The AI trade is coming back to life, thanks in
15:58
Speaker 5: part to Meta releasing its latest AI model, but just
16:02
Speaker 5: a general sense that we're out of the woods here.
16:06
Speaker 5: with some of the stories that we've been talking about.
16:09
Speaker 5: Of course, if you heard our conversation with Senator Michael Bennett,
16:11
Speaker 5: it's very clear that attempts to regulate AI here in
16:14
Speaker 5: Washington still hung up in a very serious debate that
16:19
Speaker 5: the president doesn't want even to acknowledge. As we heard
16:21
Speaker 5: from the president of the United States on Truth Social,
16:24
Speaker 5: the U.S. and China agree. There are no changes needed
16:29
Speaker 5: for AI. He says that's why we have a DOJ.
16:32
Speaker 5: If you're with us on Bloomberg TV, there you see
16:35
Speaker 5: the post. China's position also, he says, our guardrail is
16:40
Speaker 5: the DOJ. And they are talking about this as part
16:43
Speaker 5: of their bilateral meetings underway today. President, in fact, just
16:48
Speaker 5: posted that the meetings today have gone quite well. This
16:52
Speaker 5: is happening, as we realized in our last hour with
16:55
Speaker 5: the interview with the prime minister of the Netherlands, at
16:57
Speaker 5: the same time as the United Nations's General Assembly continues.
17:00
Speaker 5: And AI is a huge topic of conversation there. In fact,
17:04
Speaker 5: remarkable to see Sam Altman and Dario Amadei, OpenAI and Anthropic,
17:09
Speaker 5: both briefing members of the United Nations Security Council.
17:13
Speaker 1: Altman was in person. Amadei was virtual. Here's what they said.
17:17
Speaker 7: It doesn't matter whether people put the risk of catastrophe
17:19
Speaker 7: at 10% or 1% or 12% or 0.1%. None of
17:23
Speaker 7: these levels are remotely acceptable.
17:25
Speaker 2: We called for global cooperation across the world between governments
17:29
Speaker 2: to set international standards.
17:31
Speaker 7: As AI becomes more capable, people must remain at the
17:34
Speaker 7: center of AI decision-making.
17:37
Speaker 5: It kicks off our conversation with Miriam Vogel as we
17:40
Speaker 5: wait to hear some news from the White House and, yes,
17:43
Speaker 5: from the Capitol.
17:44
Speaker 1: This won't be solved today.
17:46
Speaker 5: With a potential framework to continue talking with China, but
17:50
Speaker 5: also domestically speaking here, attempts, whether it's through the Ratepayer
17:54
Speaker 5: Protection Act or legislation like Senator Bennett's, to try to
17:59
Speaker 5: protect ourselves from what could be the unpredictable side of
18:02
Speaker 5: artificial intelligence.
18:04
Speaker 1: We introduced you to.
18:05
Speaker 5: Miriam Vogel many months ago when her book came out,
18:07
Speaker 5: Governing the Machine, How to Navigate the Risks of AI
18:10
Speaker 5: and Unlock Its True Potential. She's the CEO and president
18:14
Speaker 5: of Equal AI, which is a nonprofit and has been
18:16
Speaker 5: spending a lot of time trying to educate people in
18:19
Speaker 5: the throes of a debate that seems to go to
18:22
Speaker 5: both extremes here on a daily basis. And she's back
18:25
Speaker 5: with us now on the heels of her testimony before
18:28
Speaker 5: the China Select Committee just yesterday. Miriam Vogel, welcome back
18:31
Speaker 5: to Bloomberg TV and radio. It's great to see you.
18:34
Speaker 5: You said in that testimony yesterday that it will be
18:36
Speaker 5: critical for the U.S. and China to get together at
18:39
Speaker 5: some point on regulating AI. Is this the meeting for
18:43
Speaker 5: it to happen?
18:44
Speaker 8: This is the meeting to begin that dialogue. This is
18:47
Speaker 8: the opportunity to open the dialogue. It's clear the consequences
18:51
Speaker 8: could not be higher. We have very high stakes, the
18:54
Speaker 8: kind of stakes that are going to require world leaders
18:56
Speaker 8: to have this conversation and make sure they have open
18:58
Speaker 8: lines of communication going forward.
19:00
Speaker 1: Both countries look at AI somewhat differently.
19:02
Speaker 5: And the extent to which we've seen China adopt AI,
19:05
Speaker 5: people are using it more indifferently than we are here today.
19:10
Speaker 1: In the United States. You wonder if we have different goals.
19:13
Speaker 1: Is it true that the U.S.
19:14
Speaker 5: Is, for instance, looking to win the race by having
19:17
Speaker 5: the fastest, most powerful model?
19:19
Speaker 1: If that's the case, what is China looking for?
19:21
Speaker 8: That's a great point, Joe. The way that China is
19:24
Speaker 8: approaching this is in a whole of government approach. They
19:28
Speaker 8: are looking at how they can build trust and security
19:31
Speaker 8: in their measures. So where we see that is in
19:34
Speaker 8: their AI regulations for algorithmic recommendations that went into effect
19:40
Speaker 8: two years ago, as well as generative AI regulations. They
19:43
Speaker 8: have an AI plus education regulation from last April, where
19:48
Speaker 8: all levels of education are required to have AI literacy
19:51
Speaker 8: by 2030.
19:51
Speaker 2: Wow.
19:53
Speaker 8: So while we are having these conversations about existential risks,
19:56
Speaker 8: which we need to, we also need to keep our
19:59
Speaker 8: mind and our vision, our sights on where AI is
20:03
Speaker 8: happening in schools, in homes, in workplaces.
20:07
Speaker 5: In the United States, it has in some ways been
20:09
Speaker 5: a partisan issue, but maybe it's not anymore.
20:12
Speaker 1: And I'm trying to figure this out. The president speaks
20:14
Speaker 1: for himself.
20:16
Speaker 5: But the memo from Dario Amadei, the endorsement effectively from
20:21
Speaker 5: Sam Altman and the conversations that we've seen, the hacking
20:24
Speaker 5: of Hugging Face, which you and I have talked about before,
20:26
Speaker 5: now the hacking of Australia, it's changed the contours of
20:30
Speaker 5: this whole debate. And you wonder if Congress can get
20:35
Speaker 5: its arms around this as it becomes less partisan. You're
20:39
Speaker 5: now hearing Democrats and Republicans say something needs to happen here.
20:43
Speaker 5: Did you experience that in the committee?
20:45
Speaker 8: I do think it's an opportunity to have a bipartisan
20:48
Speaker 8: step forward. Yes, in our hearing yesterday, there was not
20:52
Speaker 8: a lot of partisan rhetoric. It was really brass tacks.
20:55
Speaker 8: What can we be doing today? That was where they
20:57
Speaker 8: ended the conversation, what they asked each of us, what
20:59
Speaker 8: the recommendations were of what the Congress needs to do today,
21:03
Speaker 8: what the government needs to do immediately. to make sure
21:06
Speaker 8: that we are safe. And they came up with some
21:08
Speaker 8: very practical applications in addition to big picture what Jeffrey
21:13
Speaker 8: Hinton would like to see us do. He also talked
21:16
Speaker 8: about a working group. We talked about tactical working groups,
21:18
Speaker 8: making sure we have this open dialogue and clarity on
21:21
Speaker 8: what the incidents are where we'll have open lines of
21:24
Speaker 8: conversation and mechanisms to immediately report, immediately have conversations, both
21:29
Speaker 8: short and long term.
21:30
Speaker 1: There's been a suggestion that we can't do this just
21:33
Speaker 1: here in Washington. We need academics. We need people from
21:37
Speaker 1: high tech who really understand this stuff.
21:39
Speaker 5: When you talk to lawmakers, do you have a sense
21:42
Speaker 5: the person on the other side of the table has
21:43
Speaker 5: any idea what they're actually talking about?
21:45
Speaker 1: Are they using AI themselves?
21:47
Speaker 8: You're right that it's jagged.
21:48
Speaker 1: It's jagged across the.
21:50
Speaker 8: American public as to who's using it and what their
21:52
Speaker 8: comfort is. There are certainly many members of Congress that
21:55
Speaker 8: do have expertise and have staff with expertise.
21:58
Speaker 2: And for many, it's new.
21:59
Speaker 8: So I think it's much like talking to the American public.
22:02
Speaker 8: You're going to get different levels of interest and different
22:05
Speaker 8: levels of awareness of how much they're using AI throughout
22:07
Speaker 8: the day.
22:08
Speaker 1: Really interesting. Is a deconfliction line, if that's the one
22:11
Speaker 1: thing we take away here, a help? Or is that
22:14
Speaker 1: just a news release?
22:16
Speaker 8: I hope that the focus will be on this red
22:20
Speaker 8: line that came up, the red phone that was— Yeah,
22:23
Speaker 8: the bad phone. The bad phone, red phone, whatever we
22:26
Speaker 8: call it, a phone line to make sure there's an
22:28
Speaker 8: open line of communication between China and the U.S. We
22:31
Speaker 8: need to also be clear on what those incidents are
22:34
Speaker 8: that are going to create the phone call. So I
22:36
Speaker 8: think we follow the Reagan model here, trust but verify.
22:39
Speaker 8: We have different values. We have different institutions. We have
22:43
Speaker 8: similar incentives to make sure that we do not have
22:45
Speaker 8: global catastrophes to make sure our children are safe. I
22:49
Speaker 8: think you know, Joe, we did our first YouGov equal
22:52
Speaker 8: AI poll. And we found, very interestingly, the American public,
22:56
Speaker 8: by majority, want the US Congress to act on AI.
23:00
Speaker 8: They said three areas in particular they want the US
23:03
Speaker 8: to secure our infrastructure, our data, and our children. Only 4%
23:08
Speaker 8: said they don't want Congress to act on AI.
23:10
Speaker 1: How about that? That's fascinating.
23:11
Speaker 5: So is the goal here to be in a world
23:15
Speaker 5: where we're alerting China to irregularities or a jailbreak in
23:21
Speaker 5: our own AI models and China is warning us of
23:24
Speaker 5: risks that it's finding in theirs?
23:25
Speaker 1: Or does the open model challenge that idea?
23:29
Speaker 2: There are certainly challenges.
23:30
Speaker 8: You want to make sure there's alignment on what types
23:32
Speaker 8: of incidents we are on the lookout for and what
23:35
Speaker 8: types of calls, when you'll trigger a call. But the
23:38
Speaker 8: important piece there is we also need that communication to companies.
23:41
Speaker 8: We're not in an area where the incident will become
23:45
Speaker 8: instantly aware to a government body. These are going to
23:48
Speaker 8: happen within companies. So we also need to be clear
23:51
Speaker 8: for companies. These are the types of incidents you need
23:53
Speaker 8: to be aware of Here's who in the government you contact.
23:56
Speaker 8: Here are your safeguards to have that conversation so that
23:58
Speaker 8: we can also allow this global dialogue.
24:01
Speaker 5: You've probably heard about Australia. I mentioned this once already.
24:06
Speaker 5: Hugging face is one thing. Open AI, hacking, anthropic, or
24:11
Speaker 5: vice versa, I guess, is another. But when we start
24:14
Speaker 5: talking about nation states, government computer systems, or university computer systems,
24:20
Speaker 5: it seems to maybe heighten the urgency.
24:22
Speaker 1: We heard from the Prime Minister, Albanese, about what happened
24:24
Speaker 1: in Australia. Listen to what he said.
24:26
Speaker 9: Today, I spoke with the CEO of OpenAI, Sam Altman,
24:31
Speaker 9: to express Australia's extreme concern about this incident. And I
24:36
Speaker 9: also expressed my disappointment that it took the company way
24:39
Speaker 9: too long to inform the government what had occurred and
24:43
Speaker 9: the nature of the way that that notification occurred as
24:48
Speaker 9: well was unacceptable.
24:52
Speaker 1: Not a great tone from the Prime Minister.
24:54
Speaker 5: An open AI model indeed hacked an Australian government website
24:58
Speaker 5: earlier this year. It's being hailed, Miriam, as one of
25:02
Speaker 5: the first, if not the first, known cyber attack by
25:04
Speaker 5: AI on a government database.
25:06
Speaker 1: Does this bring us to a new level?
25:07
Speaker 8: This is deeply concerning. But it's a constant recognition that
25:12
Speaker 8: algorithms will do exactly what we ask them to do.
25:14
Speaker 1: You always say that. So tell us what you mean.
25:16
Speaker 8: Well, we have to be cognizant of.
25:19
Speaker 1: What was it told to do?
25:20
Speaker 8: Well, that's a great question. And that's why we need
25:22
Speaker 8: accountability and visibility. Who is accountable for that test? Who
25:27
Speaker 8: within their C-suite ultimately answers to it? And that's also
25:31
Speaker 8: why you need... clear safeguards like the incident reporting. At
25:34
Speaker 8: what point should the company have to notify the government?
25:37
Speaker 8: What are the type of incidents and who should be
25:39
Speaker 8: their point of contact so that we can make sure
25:41
Speaker 8: that they're not just acting on their own volition to
25:44
Speaker 8: contact different nation states or other injured parties, but making
25:49
Speaker 8: sure there is certainty about what is being expected and when.
25:52
Speaker 1: It's going to be quite a state dinner tonight.
25:54
Speaker 2: I bet.
25:54
Speaker 5: Jensen Wong, Sam Altman. I Is this the real negotiation
26:04
Speaker 5: with the stakeholders? They're going to be in the same
26:06
Speaker 5: room as President Xi.
26:08
Speaker 8: I don't know how much negotiation is going to happen
26:09
Speaker 8: at dinner tonight, but I do think the more there's
26:12
Speaker 8: dialogue and the more people that are in the dialogue
26:15
Speaker 8: are really important. I think another piece that we need
26:17
Speaker 8: to be mindful of, and I talked about in my
26:19
Speaker 8: testimony yesterday, we need to be talking about the risks
26:21
Speaker 8: in model deployment, in model development rather, but we need
26:25
Speaker 8: to open the aperture. We need to make sure that
26:27
Speaker 8: other key stakeholders are also included in this conversation. A
26:31
Speaker 8: lot of the high-stakes interactions in AI are happening with
26:34
Speaker 8: the deployers, with banks, all sorts of financial institutions, hospitals.
26:39
Speaker 8: We need to make sure that they're part of this
26:40
Speaker 8: conversation of both the safeguards and opportunities.
26:43
Speaker 5: Opening the aperture with Miriam Vogel. I'm always so much
26:47
Speaker 5: more relaxed after I talk to you.
26:48
Speaker 1: You have a way. Equal AI.
26:50
Speaker 5: Thank you, Miriam. It's great to see you. And good
26:52
Speaker 5: luck with your meetings on Capitol Hill. This is all
26:54
Speaker 5: happening in real time. The debate, the writing of legislation,
26:57
Speaker 5: and what could be a deal at the White House,
26:59
Speaker 5: we'll find out together. And Senator Steve Daines is going
27:02
Speaker 5: to join us next. Of all experts on China, he's
27:05
Speaker 5: coming up next live from Capitol Hill here on Bloomberg.
27:07
Speaker 1: Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much
27:09
Speaker 1: more coming up after this.
27:14
Speaker 4: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
27:17
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27:21
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27:33
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of plates to spin today.
27:34
Speaker 5: We're covering the markets, of course, and watching what's happening
27:37
Speaker 5: not only at the White House with the summit between
27:40
Speaker 5: Presidents Trump and Xi, but what's taking place, of course.
27:43
Speaker 1: On Capitol Hill as well.
27:44
Speaker 5: Some of the final throws of this Senate session taking
27:48
Speaker 5: place today.
27:50
Speaker 1: And when we talked about some of the.
27:51
Speaker 5: Voices that we wanted to bring into the program for
27:54
Speaker 5: you here, to get a better understanding of this relationship
27:57
Speaker 5: between Presidents Trump and Xi, a better understanding of our
28:00
Speaker 5: economic relationship as the two world's biggest superpowers, and the
28:03
Speaker 5: potential for some breakthrough agreements here on anything from trade
28:07
Speaker 5: to AI to military.
28:10
Speaker 1: The first senator we called was Steve Daines.
28:13
Speaker 5: Of course, the Republican from Montana has a unique viewpoint here,
28:17
Speaker 5: having lived in China for six years now. As a
28:20
Speaker 5: former manager for Procter & Gamble's China operations, a former
28:23
Speaker 5: software executive that has a keen understanding, having conducted multiple
28:27
Speaker 5: CODELs with his colleagues to China, and of course, even
28:32
Speaker 5: this year hosting a bipartisan CODEL, setting the stage for
28:35
Speaker 5: the president's visit to China.
28:37
Speaker 1: Just a week after it took place.
28:39
Speaker 5: Senator Daines, seventh CODEL to China, and he's been on
28:42
Speaker 5: a lot of other trips as well with a keen
28:44
Speaker 5: understanding of the culture behind this conversation, joins us now
28:47
Speaker 5: live on Bloomberg TV and radio.
28:49
Speaker 1: Senator Daines, welcome back.
28:51
Speaker 5: There's been a lot of talk about optics here, the
28:53
Speaker 5: red carpet, that Andrews, the president's own personal reception, the
28:57
Speaker 5: pomp and circumstance on the South Lawn, the military parades,
29:01
Speaker 5: the flyovers and the state dinners. How is this being
29:04
Speaker 5: read in China itself? Is this seen as appeasement or
29:10
Speaker 5: something deserved?
29:13
Speaker 2: No, I think it'll be seen in China as respect.
29:17
Speaker 2: That's a very important term as we think about this relationship.
29:21
Speaker 2: Something that the Chinese admire is that President Trump is
29:25
Speaker 2: being very respectful of this visit. And it's a spirit
29:29
Speaker 2: of reciprocity as well. The Chinese literally rolled out red
29:33
Speaker 2: carpet and provided respect to President Trump when he was
29:36
Speaker 2: in Beijing in May. I think when you step back,
29:39
Speaker 2: it's just very important to remember that the United States
29:42
Speaker 2: and China are the two largest economies in the world
29:45
Speaker 2: by far. They comprise about 42% of the world's GDP.
29:50
Speaker 2: It's the world's two largest militaries. Of course, the The
29:54
Speaker 2: two countries that have leadership in terms of frontier models
29:58
Speaker 2: of AI. So I look at this relationship as really
30:01
Speaker 2: too big to fail. And I'm very appreciative of what
30:04
Speaker 2: President Trump has been doing to stay engaged.
30:07
Speaker 1: In a respectful manner.
30:08
Speaker 2: A lot of the substance in terms of discussions will
30:11
Speaker 2: be going on behind closed doors. A lot of it
30:13
Speaker 2: was done ahead of time with Secretary Besant and Halifong,
30:17
Speaker 2: the vice premier, Matt, to tee things up. But so far,
30:20
Speaker 2: so good. I'll be there tonight at the dinner. have
30:24
Speaker 2: a chance to see, I think, President Trump again put
30:26
Speaker 2: on quite a respectful show for President Xi.
30:31
Speaker 5: Well, boy, I should say so. And obviously, not everyone
30:33
Speaker 5: agrees with you on this. We heard from Senator Roger Wicker,
30:36
Speaker 5: who thought that it was a bit too much. And
30:38
Speaker 5: we heard as well from Democratic Senator Alyssa Slotkin. Michigan
30:42
Speaker 5: joined us last evening. Here's what she had to say
30:44
Speaker 5: about the optics behind this visit.
30:47
Speaker 10: I cannot, for the life of me, understand what his
30:50
Speaker 10: actual policy is when today, right now, there's more tariffs
30:53
Speaker 10: on Canada than there is on China. And he's rolling
30:56
Speaker 10: out the red carpet for them as he punches others
30:58
Speaker 10: in the teeth. If you're the president of the United
31:01
Speaker 10: States and you're going and meeting someone at your, you know,
31:05
Speaker 10: Andrews Air Force Base and kind of welcoming them with
31:08
Speaker 10: this kind of fanfare, just like he did Putin over
31:10
Speaker 10: in Alaska— You know, there's a power conversation that goes
31:14
Speaker 10: on in how you frame the protocol of these trips.
31:16
Speaker 10: And it's like for many of us, just watching him
31:19
Speaker 10: kind of bow down is just deeply, deeply problematic.
31:24
Speaker 5: Obviously, Senator, a very different take than yours. But if
31:27
Speaker 5: it is the respect that you describe, what should come
31:30
Speaker 5: of it? What are the deliverables that you expect to
31:32
Speaker 5: see if if nothing more than talking about meeting again?
31:37
Speaker 2: Well, I think something to keep in mind as you
31:39
Speaker 2: hear my colleagues and some of the responses, which I respect,
31:43
Speaker 2: we are 40 days from a very important election. So
31:46
Speaker 2: things tend to get a little politicized here in Washington.
31:48
Speaker 2: As we get a little closer, I'll just say that.
31:50
Speaker 2: But I think the substance here is going to be
31:52
Speaker 2: really nailing down some of these trade negotiations that have
31:55
Speaker 2: been going on for quite some time. Very important market
31:59
Speaker 2: for markets. our ranchers and our farmers. It's the second
32:02
Speaker 2: largest beef export market in the world. Huge markets are
32:05
Speaker 2: for wheat, barley. You look at 95% of the world's
32:08
Speaker 2: consumers live outside the United States. And so this is
32:11
Speaker 2: a very important market. That'll be one very important topic
32:14
Speaker 2: for sure. I think AI dialogue, very important. I know
32:18
Speaker 2: there's already been a lot of discussion going on behind
32:20
Speaker 2: closed doors and some public statements as well. Very critical
32:25
Speaker 2: that we find ways to have ways to de-conflict. If
32:29
Speaker 2: there was an escalation, something that was risk presented to
32:31
Speaker 2: a frontier AI model, one of the ability for One
32:35
Speaker 2: of our leaders to conduct, one of China's leaders here.
32:38
Speaker 2: It's very similar to what you have from a military viewpoint.
32:42
Speaker 2: If two subs collided in the night in the Taiwan
32:44
Speaker 2: Strait between China and the United States, you've got to
32:46
Speaker 2: be able to deconflict that rapidly to make sure it
32:49
Speaker 2: didn't escalate. The same thing is going to hold true
32:51
Speaker 2: with AI. So that will be something of substance. And
32:53
Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, it's very
32:55
Speaker 2: important to see these two leaders treat each other with respect.
32:59
Speaker 2: The process is about as important as the product because
33:02
Speaker 2: as these two leaders engage, that sends signals down through
33:05
Speaker 2: the respective governments about further engagement where probably even more
33:09
Speaker 2: substance will be developed, as well as private sector to
33:12
Speaker 2: private sector. So again, as the two leaders flex, so
33:15
Speaker 2: will flex the organizations down below them.
33:18
Speaker 5: Interesting, when we talk about AI, the president posting on
33:21
Speaker 5: Truth Social, I want to leave it exactly where it is.
33:24
Speaker 5: That's China's position also. Our guardrail is the DOJ. What
33:29
Speaker 5: is China's goal when it comes to AI in this summit? Yeah, well,
33:34
Speaker 5: I was in Hangzhou just a few weeks ago. Hangzhou
33:37
Speaker 5: is a critical city in the world. innovation ecosystem in China,
33:42
Speaker 5: and frankly, the world. It's just about an hour outside
33:45
Speaker 5: of Shanghai.
33:46
Speaker 2: It's the city's largest New York City that many Americans
33:49
Speaker 2: may have never heard of. It's where they also have
33:51
Speaker 2: what they call the six little dragons, six of their
33:53
Speaker 2: high-tech companies. DeepSeek, one of them that got a lot
33:56
Speaker 2: of news last year, certainly with their AI model. But
33:59
Speaker 2: I was just there a couple weeks ago, went to
34:00
Speaker 2: Zhejiang University, which now has been ranked ahead of Harvard
34:04
Speaker 2: in terms of research. The first time in over 20
34:06
Speaker 2: years where Harvard dropped to third place, Zhejiang University and
34:09
Speaker 2: Hangzhou was ranked number one. The reason I share that
34:12
Speaker 2: is because I think it's very important we understand what's
34:14
Speaker 2: being built in China in terms of world-class innovation ecosystem.
34:19
Speaker 2: This is a very important competition that we must win.
34:22
Speaker 2: It's always about speed. As you mentioned earlier, I was
34:25
Speaker 2: in the software business for 12 years. I ran age-specific
34:27
Speaker 2: for our company. for five of those years, it's always
34:30
Speaker 2: about speed, getting out faster, beating the competition. And so
34:33
Speaker 2: as we think about regulation and guardrails, both on the
34:36
Speaker 2: China side and the US side, let's remember that I'm
34:40
Speaker 2: not sure Washington and regulators have the ability to effectively
34:45
Speaker 2: put the right guardrails in place because of the rapid
34:48
Speaker 2: nature of innovation going on with AI. We're now in
34:50
Speaker 2: this recursive nature of AI. In other words, it's AI
34:54
Speaker 2: now generating the next generation of AI code. And how
34:57
Speaker 2: in the world do you put your arms around that
35:00
Speaker 2: in a thoughtful way from a regulatory viewpoint when speed
35:03
Speaker 2: is the name of the game? And so we want
35:05
Speaker 2: to have a thoughtful, I call maybe adaptive governance that
35:09
Speaker 2: was going to require a loud voice from the private
35:11
Speaker 2: sector somehow with the right kind of government DNA involved
35:16
Speaker 2: in that. But I do worry that we don't get overreached.
35:19
Speaker 2: You hear some of my colleagues suggesting we shut down AI.
35:22
Speaker 2: That's nonsense. If you're trying to win a race, slowing
35:25
Speaker 2: down is not the answer.
35:27
Speaker 5: What about the sentiment issue here, the NIMBY issue? Data
35:31
Speaker 5: centers are kind of their own thing, but it's become
35:34
Speaker 5: the poster child, I think, for a lot of people
35:35
Speaker 5: about what's wrong with AI. Are they protesting data centers
35:41
Speaker 5: in China? What's the education program that needs to be
35:46
Speaker 5: implemented here in the United States?
35:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's been a terrible job, in my opinion,
35:51
Speaker 2: of making sure the American people understand all the facts
35:55
Speaker 2: about And we're getting close to an election, so hysteria
35:58
Speaker 2: tends to be the name of the game. But remember,
36:02
Speaker 2: there's about 5,000 data centers operating today in the United States.
36:07
Speaker 2: Data centers are being built. It relates to some of
36:10
Speaker 2: the concerns on rates of utilities, water usage. The rate
36:16
Speaker 2: issue can be certainly managed to make sure when we
36:20
Speaker 2: don't want to see any impact on of higher rates
36:23
Speaker 2: for the American consumer. That can be protected. On the
36:26
Speaker 2: water piece, the modern cooling systems now, they're closed-loop systems.
36:32
Speaker 2: The old systems were big consumers of water. The new
36:35
Speaker 2: systems aren't. And so I think we've just done a
36:37
Speaker 2: very poor job of understanding, of helping everybody understand the
36:40
Speaker 2: facts versus kind of hysteria and hyperbole. Remember, our iPhones,
36:45
Speaker 2: what we use every day, a lot of that's in
36:47
Speaker 2: the cloud. Where does the cloud operate? The cloud operates
36:49
Speaker 2: in data centers. So when I think about even our
36:51
Speaker 2: own iPhones or whatever phone you have, if you've got
36:53
Speaker 2: your picture of your grandkids and so forth, oftentimes they're
36:55
Speaker 2: in the cloud. Where's the cloud? The data centers. And
36:58
Speaker 2: so we've just got to make sure First, we safeguard,
37:01
Speaker 2: protect the American people from any downside of higher rates,
37:05
Speaker 2: but also do a better job of educating the benefits
37:07
Speaker 2: and upside economically as well as just preserving this race
37:11
Speaker 2: we're in here to make sure we can compete and
37:12
Speaker 2: beat China over the long haul.
37:15
Speaker 5: Might be the new slogan for the program, Senator. Your
37:18
Speaker 5: grandkids live in the data center. I want to ask
37:22
Speaker 5: you broadly about when it comes to U.S. goals here,
37:25
Speaker 5: geopolitics and trade, is this more about Boeings and soybeans
37:29
Speaker 5: or Iran and Taiwan?
37:32
Speaker 2: Well, the answer is yes. It's both. And again, when
37:35
Speaker 2: you look at that, when I was over there the
37:37
Speaker 2: week before the president went over, we called it beef, Boeing,
37:40
Speaker 2: and beans. So that was part of the theme. But
37:45
Speaker 2: it's both. And so I think part of the art
37:48
Speaker 2: of diplomacy and constructive dialogue is having the tough conversations
37:53
Speaker 2: behind closed doors. And believe me, you look at what
37:56
Speaker 2: Scott Best has done, and President Trump's team, there have
37:59
Speaker 2: been some tough head-to-head conversations behind closed doors with their
38:03
Speaker 2: Chinese counterparts. But I think it's important that you keep
38:07
Speaker 2: the public rhetoric, the public statements here in a constructive fashion.
38:11
Speaker 2: Not only kind of a family feud, better to have
38:13
Speaker 2: those discussions, you know, the fight behind closed doors. It's
38:17
Speaker 2: better in terms of the overall relationship. And I think
38:19
Speaker 2: you actually get more constructive outcomes when you have those
38:23
Speaker 2: tough conversations in a private lane as it relates to
38:26
Speaker 2: working with the Chinese. I found, you know, doing business
38:29
Speaker 2: there for many years, spending multiple trips there as a U.S. Senator,
38:34
Speaker 2: engaging understanding of the culture. We're better served to have
38:37
Speaker 2: the tough conversations privately and have the public respect here.
38:42
Speaker 2: And you're seeing that right now demonstrated, frankly, beautifully by
38:46
Speaker 2: President Trump.
38:48
Speaker 5: What do you make of the president's rhetoric about communists?
38:50
Speaker 5: He talks about communists a lot, frequently referring to socialists,
38:53
Speaker 5: democratic socialists, as communists. He talks about communism killing the country,
38:58
Speaker 5: being the end of the country as we know it.
39:01
Speaker 5: But he's, of course, been investing taxpayer money in public companies,
39:05
Speaker 5: and he's fetting the communist leader of China.
39:08
Speaker 1: Is there some confusion here?
39:10
Speaker 2: Well, look, you've got— we' re coming up on election again, and— Certainly,
39:15
Speaker 2: as we look at some of the rhetoric we're hearing
39:18
Speaker 2: from my colleagues from the other side of the aisle
39:21
Speaker 2: of the party here, very concerning. It's beyond just a
39:26
Speaker 2: tax issue. We want to restructure the way the government operates.
39:30
Speaker 2: adding four more Democrat senators by providing D.C. statehood and
39:33
Speaker 2: Puerto Rican statehood.
39:35
Speaker 1: What about the actual communists, though?
39:38
Speaker 2: Supreme Court justices. But, you know, one thing is the
39:42
Speaker 2: beauty of what's happening in Washington. We've got a democracy here,
39:45
Speaker 2: and there's certain things I agree with, some things I
39:46
Speaker 2: don't agree with. But that's all part of the battle
39:48
Speaker 2: here in Washington. I grew up influenced by Ronald Reagan.
39:52
Speaker 2: I consider myself someone who is greatly influenced. I got
39:54
Speaker 2: to be a delegate for Ronald Reagan as a young
39:56
Speaker 2: college Republican back in 1984. And so he really molded
40:00
Speaker 2: my conservative thinking and principles, both from the diplomacy as
40:03
Speaker 2: well as economic policy.
40:05
Speaker 5: He was pretty clear about his thoughts on communists as well, Senator.
40:09
Speaker 5: But I've only got you for a couple of more minutes.
40:11
Speaker 5: And I want to ask you about just quickly some
40:13
Speaker 5: Senate business. Are we getting a war powers vote on
40:15
Speaker 5: Iran today?
40:16
Speaker 1: And are you a no?
40:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm hearing that we likely will see that vote.
40:20
Speaker 2: And I'd be a no on that.
40:21
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:23
Speaker 4: Okay.
40:24
Speaker 5: I'd love to ask you as well about a diesel ban.
40:26
Speaker 5: We've been talking to lawmakers around the horn about this,
40:29
Speaker 5: and I realize the president may not have decided on
40:31
Speaker 5: what to do, but there is legislation. We talked to
40:34
Speaker 5: Tim Burchett about his bill yesterday for a temporary ban
40:37
Speaker 5: on diesel exports. The American Petroleum Institute tells us that
40:42
Speaker 5: would just send prices higher in the long term.
40:45
Speaker 1: Do you agree? Do you have a take on this?
40:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
40:49
Speaker 2: I think, again, what you're listening Less than 40 days
40:52
Speaker 2: away from an election, instead of having perhaps deeper thoughts and,
40:59
Speaker 2: I'd say, thoughtful responses, it tends to be 30-second or
41:03
Speaker 2: maybe 15-second sound bites because of what's happening here in
41:06
Speaker 2: 40 days. I'm concerned when you look at the... overall
41:10
Speaker 2: supply chain, the complexity of oil coming in, refining processes,
41:16
Speaker 2: and then the distribution processes. I'm a chemical engineer by degree,
41:19
Speaker 2: nearly went into petroleum refining once upon a time. And
41:21
Speaker 2: so I think you want to be careful. And we
41:23
Speaker 2: could have unintended consequences where the price actually goes up.
41:27
Speaker 2: So let's stay on the policy.
41:29
Speaker 1: Senator Steve Daines, great to have you back. Beef, bowings,
41:33
Speaker 1: and beans. This is Bloomberg.
41:35
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41:39
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41:44
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41:48
Speaker 5: at Bloomberg.com.