Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 193. Maria Guajardo: We make the road by walking

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193. Maria Guajardo: We make the road by walking · Be A Global Citizen!

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Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
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explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
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value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm
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Ahsoka, researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussion,
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stories and insights on this podcast to be valuable and
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inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
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committed to living a contributive life.
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Enjoy. Greetings.
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I'm Maria Guajardo. I'm currently based in Denver,
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Co after 12 years in Tokyo, Japan at Soka University in
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Japan. And I am very excited to be here
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to examine, explore, cast wonderment on the concept of
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global citizenship. Wonderful.
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Thank you so much Maria for, for joining me on the podcast.
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Been connected to you for for many years and have always been
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inspired and amazed by the, the work that you do in fostering
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global citizens through your, the, the research articles that
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you've written through leadership capacities that you
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held at Soka University and at other institutions.
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And you know, it's just the way in which you really care for the
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students around you. I think it's just so evident and
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kind of like that the energy that you bring.
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And, you know, and I'm just really wanting to learn more
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about your current thoughts in regards to global citizenship,
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especially in the times that we're we're living in right now,
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where it's my opinion that it's very much needed to address many
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of the kind of like polarizing, you know, issues that are
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happening and sense of like kind of wanting to maybe reject or
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kind of avoid differences that actually can really serve as
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bridges. So, you know, you've, you've
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been an educator for for all of your life, you know, and you've
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lived in different countries and you've done so much work.
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I'm going to ask the very difficult task of you to maybe,
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you know, condense so many years of experience into maybe like a
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few various different kind of milestones that can really help
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us understand like what what brought you to the, the work
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that you're doing right now as an academic, as an educator, as
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professor, And yeah. And then kind of like what's
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what's currently on your plate in terms of the the work that
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you're doing right now back in Denver, Co?
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Thank you, Scott. I truly value the concept of
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positionality. And So what I'd like to do in
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addressing responding to your question is sharing a bit of my
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own positionality as the daughter of Mexican immigrants
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to the USI was born and raised here.
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My first language was Spanish and I did not learn English
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until I started school. And I share that to say that at
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a very young age, I felt other, I felt displaced.
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I felt as if I was not the same. And yet over years and over my
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the path of my career, it's really come to be a benefit
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because I am now transitioning out of my 4th career and as a
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licensed clinical psychologist that never saw another client
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again. After I got licensed, I
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discovered public policy, and that was really the entree into
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the work that I began dozens of years ago.
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And it was the idea of wanting to make an impact.
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And early in my career I was making that impact in public
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policy. Went on to direct nonprofit
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organizations at the state level where I was contributing to the
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lives of the Latino community at large to positive youth
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development in the state of Colorado.
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And then city government took over and I decided that becoming
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part of the mayor's cabinet where I would take
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responsibility for education and children in the city of Denver
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became the next pathway for the next stage.
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You might say for the work that I would be doing to really begin
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to ask, what role does government have in the education
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of children and the well-being of families?
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And was able to do that work and really learn about building
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bridges and making connections between the nonprofit world, the
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education sector, government sector.
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How do we not only collaborate, but in, in order to, to produce
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more, to be a greater contributor to the greater good?
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And then 12 years ago, I was invited to Japan, to Soka
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University to serve as the founding Dean for the Faculty of
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International Liberal Arts. Japan was on a pathway of
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globalization, you might say, and the Ministry of Education
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had committed millions to the globalization of higher
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education in Japan. Soca University was one of the
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in the vanguard of this effort and designed an entire
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department or faculty delivered in English at the university,
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international liberal arts. So you could come either a
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domestic Japanese student or international student.
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As long as you spoke English at a university level, you could
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earn your bachelor's degree in English and never have to take
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courses in Japanese. So this was extremely innovative
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1214 years ago. And that's how I ended up in
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Japan, stepping into a role in higher education.
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I did not anticipate having to teach because Deans in the
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United States don't teach you administrate, but found that the
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tradition in Japan is very different.
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Even the president of our university taught a course.
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And so I found myself being asked the question, Maria, what
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would you like to teach? And I decided that although I
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was trained as a psychologist, I did not want to teach
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psychology. Leadership emerged as that area
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where I felt impact could make could could be broader.
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And so I began my quest of raising the next generation of
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global leaders. Wow, thank you so much, Maria.
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I totally got it wrong. I was like, oh, I thought you
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were just professor, you know, all, all your all your life.
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But you like you said for careers and very diverse, right.
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Like you said, from psychology, public policy, nonprofit and
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government work to yeah, being a founding Dean at at this faculty
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of liberal arts in Japan of all places as well.
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It sounds like you've lived so many lifetimes seemingly and
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compressed into one because of like how often, you know, we
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see, oh, someone just kind of focuses in on one thing, right,
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and then carries it forward. But you've been able to kind of
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mark out like these different paths, but then also these
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connection points that you're talking about, right?
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Really like asking these broader questions and then from those
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broad questions, then realizing like, well, then the question
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that was posed to you at at Sokka University was what would
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you like to teach leadership Then kind of appears, but it
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just seems like this like kind of like, you know, brought
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branch, all these different branches and they're kind of
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like coming together and coalescing onto this, this one
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word with like such deep meaning.
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And and then the way in which I'm sure interacting with your
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students and how you were able to make that impact within the
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classroom. But then seeing them leave the
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classroom and go on to to further studies, take on jobs,
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start new initiatives. I'm sure that, you know, it's,
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it's been this, you know, wonderful, like very gratifying
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experience of seeing that, yeah, that impact is being extended.
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But you know, the all of that impact, right?
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Like we kind of I, I, at least for myself, can get very like
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overwhelmed of like, wow, like how does one get to a point
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where now you're suddenly making impact on that kind of a scale
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within local government, within, you know, your country and then
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also abroad and, you know, you know, countries like Japan and
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beyond. I like to think, you know, that
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positionality that you started off with is actually something I
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wanted to go back to because the kind of impact that the parents
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have on on their children is actually of such significance
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where a lot of people think they're, you know, that that is
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the first teacher right in our lives.
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And so while you've experienced that other, you know, kind of
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that feeling of displacement, of being othered, I'm sure that
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your parents probably felt or experienced something similar or
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maybe even, you know, in kind of there's other, you know, things
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kind of added on top of that of like the responsibility of
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raising, you know, a young family in another country.
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So could you maybe speak about the impact that your parents had
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on you growing up as an immigrant?
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Yeah, I'd love to hear that. In the United States, it is now
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commonly recognized that the greatest work ethic in any one
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segment of the population is the work ethic of recent immigrants.
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And my parents coming to the United States really came with
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that sense, a very high developed sense of work ethic,
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but also that sense of wanting to pursue a better life for
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their children. This was not it and it continues
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to be common. It.
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I was going to say it's not uncommon to have this pursuit of
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wanting a better life for one's family.
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And so they came with three small children in tow, had three
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more and the clothes on their back and had three more children
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on this side of the border. There were six of us as children
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in the in my family, as migrant workers.
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I was born and raised in a labor camp where all eight of us slept
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in one room. I mean, this is what labor camps
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were with no running water, no electricity, no plumbing.
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This is Central California. We're not talking a third world
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country. We are talking the United States
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of America. So this was my beginning and it
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was my parents desire and yearning to create a better
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life, hoping that that dream that they aspire towards would
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not become a nightmare. And so my job as a child, I
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mean, I worked in the fields with my parents, but I also love
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school. And it was something that my
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parents fostered and encouraged while they themselves had no
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formal education. Neither one of my parents went
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to school. Neither one of them learned how
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to read or write. So imagine never reading a book,
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never reading, never being able to read a book.
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And yet they instilled in all six of us the desire to pursue
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education. When I was accepted into Harvard
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and that's where I did my undergraduate work, my mother
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was very happy. She had no idea where the
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university was. She had never heard of it.
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She asked me, would you be home on weekends?
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Because she had no idea I was going across the country.
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So it wasn't that. I mean, there's this myth and it
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perpetuates today that somehow immigrants don't value
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education. I can't tell you what could be
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further from the truth. No one uproots their family with
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the intention of wanting to somehow scam or scheme.
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You don't do that. You come with this desire of
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wanting to know, can my contribution create a better
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world, not only for my family but my community.
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So what did I learn? That was what I learned.
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So when I went to Japan, it was not lost on me that I was
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experiencing something similar. I did not know the language.
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I could not read it. You have to know at least 4000
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kanji characters in order to be able to read at the 4th grade
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level. That was not me.
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My first seven years at the university, I was accompanied by
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interpreters and translators, so I never had to read.
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I never I That's my excuse now for not having learned Japanese
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at anything but a preschool level.
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But the idea that I was illiterate when I first landed
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in Japan was not lost on me. It was the same experience that
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my parents had gone through. The difference was that I was
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educated, so I had the privilege of having interpreters at my
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side. I had the privilege of being
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able to navigate in English. And enough, enough of my
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colleagues spoke English so that that was not a barrier, right.
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So, but it's not lost on me that when we arrive in a new
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environment and it doesn't have to be a different country, it
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could be a different community, We must find our place and space
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in order to create home again. That that last phrase that you
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just said, Maria, was very, very, very powerful because you
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know it, you know, that just the word home itself, I think, you
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know, entails this like sense of like identity, comfort,
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community. And yet we were striving to kind
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of like always anchor ourselves, right?
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And to, to kind of get gauged kind of like, I think, you know,
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with those around us, right? The initial surroundings were
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the people, family, they reflect back aspects of ourselves.
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But when you're in a completely new place, there's suddenly this
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fear of like, well, who am I right, this kind of confusion or
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again, right, the otherness, the, the displacement that you
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were experiencing that surely your, your parents were also
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feeling. But you know, the, the immigrant
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story, you know what you were talking about terms of like the,
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the work ethic of your parents and how that much they valued
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education. That all resonates strongly
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because, you know, my, my mom is an immigrant herself from South
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Korea. And very much why this feeling
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of like uprooting herself and like having to learn the
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language and really like move forward so that she can provide
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the, this kind of environment for, for her children, both my
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sister and I. And, and so there's such like,
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you know, appreciation and I think respect that comes from
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the, the children of immigrants. And I'm sure that was also
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something that you you felt very much for, for your parents.
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And yeah, and I'm just curious like in terms of like just the,
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the, maybe the, the word appreciation in terms of like
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how that was like kind of fostered within your
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relationship with your family, but then also how that carries
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over, you know, into other spheres of your life.
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Like could you maybe like unpack that a little bit?
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Because I feel like that's, that's there's something there
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in terms of like how like maybe it's glue or maybe it's like
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kind of weaving things together in terms of like how we can
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build strong bonds that help us to create that kind of home, you
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know? I think that within communities
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we learn and develop a worldview, a global mindset for
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how to understand who we are, where we are, how to be within
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the Latino community. And I grew up in a very
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traditional Mexican home, Mexican community.
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The worldview was collectivistic.
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The world view was based on us as a community.
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And there is a a concept, an African concept called Ubuntu.
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I am because we are and we are because I am.
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And I would suggest that within the Mexicano community, within
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the Latino community, this was a concept that we embodied.
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It was not Maria's individual achievement that mattered.
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It was who we were as a family body and how we all worked in
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our best way, in our own individual way, in order to
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contribute to the greater good. And the greater good begins with
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us as a family unit and then it extends out a contribution to
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the community and then to society.
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And so I think it's important to grasp, understand, explore what
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is the worldview that one is born into and that one that and
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that is nurtured at a very young age.
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My worldview was that of being part of a community and being
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part of a collective, and that was how I experienced the world.
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That's how I navigated through the world.
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So to not have a community then was very discombobulating
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because that's what I understood to be shoulder to shoulder with
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individuals who were all about individual accomplishment.
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Achievement at the expense of everyone else seemed like a
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foreign concept. Although I had been born and
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raised in the United States of America and I like to say I'm as
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American as they come. However, I don't look like the
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white European American. And that then presses the
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question of who am I? Who am I in a community that is
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much more individualistic country and yet there are many
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of us, I would suggest to you that are very collective in
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nature. How do we do this together?
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How do we create home? How do we create trusting,
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engaged spaces for the betterment and the goodness of
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the greater good, right. So this is this, I think is this
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concept of worldview of 1's mindset is often assumed to be
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that of the majority. And I would suggest to you, many
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of us have a contradictory mindset, and I think to honor
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that and respect that you begin to get to the a connection to
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the dignity of that human being. Dignity is something we are born
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with. It is not something that we
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earn. It's not like respect.
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Dignity and respect are two different concepts, very related
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but separate dignity. As human beings, we are born
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with a sense of dignity. You cannot take my dignity away.
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You may try, but you can't. Respect, on the other hand, as
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we've often heard, has to be earned.
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You can undo it yourself if you commit some infraction.
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I mean, it's a very different concept.
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So back to my main point though, is that our worldview, our
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mindset, and some might call it a global mindset, if that's what
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you have extended yourself into, that is what begins to dictate
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and and propel how we show up in the world.
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Yeah, Thank you for I mean, like the the this discussion about
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like the worldview that we have, it's so much of like an internal
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struggle of like making sense of, you know, what we're feeling
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and experiencing. But then also there's the
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external, you know, environment acting upon us and sending us
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messages, right, or telling us how we are, how we should be.
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And, and, and again, it's like trying to reconcile between
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different realities of like what you had grown up with that more
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collectivist, kind of like understanding of like, how am I
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building community? How am I pouring back into that
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community as well? And, and respecting that
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community, you know, loving that, appreciating it, But you
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know, you, you were also talking about how you found yourself.
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Now being kind of like in different communities, right,
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Like even just with like the the undergrad going to the the East
20:27
Coast right to Harvard, I'm sure that that was probably one of
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the, you know, earlier experiences of just really like
20:35
recognizing, oh, you know, it's like, I don't think I'm I'm back
20:38
in Kansas anymore. Not not Kansas, but you know,
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you know what I mean? Like I'm just trying to say that
20:43
there is this like kind of vote cult that the cultural shock
20:46
side of it where now like you're being buffeted by all of these
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different kinds of like influences.
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So I guess the challenge of that is to stay true to kind of what
20:57
you already know. But I mean, also this acceptance
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of like, but how am I also like, you know, growing and absorbing
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some of the, you know, the good, right, in terms of like
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learnings of how other people may show up and may see with a
21:12
different world view. Maybe could you share a bit
21:16
about like that earlier experience going, you know,
21:19
leaving home and how, you know you were able to kind of, you
21:24
know, be resilient, but also be curious in terms of like how you
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can expand your worldview? One of my favorite authors is
21:32
James Baldwin, and one of the lines from his written work says
21:37
this We learn who we are by how others perceive us.
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We learn who we are by how others perceive us.
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And so to your question. While I had a certain
21:54
understanding and awareness of who I was and the beauty of
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growing up so invisible in high school, no one expected me to
22:02
apply to Ivy League schools and no one discouraged me from
22:05
applying to Ivy League schools, right?
22:07
That's that's the beauty of invisibility.
22:09
So I applied to Harvard and Yale and Brown and Stanford.
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I got into all of them and no one was there to say, you know
22:16
what, Maria? People like you don't go there.
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Invisibility actually was to my benefit.
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I mean, yes, you struggle through this process alone, but
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the brilliance is that no one is there to tell you you don't
22:30
belong there. You also grow up in a community
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where I didn't grow up with labels.
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I didn't grow up with the label of being at risk because my
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parents were illiterate. I didn't understand that I lived
22:43
in poverty. I knew I was poor, but I didn't
22:46
have that label. I didn't have the label of
22:48
coming from deficit based cultural background, which
22:52
sociologists would have had at that time for populations that
22:58
were not quite European. I mean, it's great to not have
23:05
those labels, but then you have to learn how to, how to navigate
23:11
through those labels. So going to Harvard, I didn't
23:13
know that I was at risk. I didn't know that I was in the
23:16
lower socioeconomic status of the country.
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I mean, there were things that I didn't have labels for.
23:23
And you know, there's some beauty there.
23:25
If a child doesn't know their, I don't know any one of those
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labels, right? They, they don't, they speak to
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it, they don't. It doesn't define them.
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That's what I want to say. So sometimes we aren't defined
23:45
by the stereotypes or limited perceptions of others because we
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don't have that as a frame of reference.
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I understood 2 languages. I loved Mexican music.
24:00
I mean being bilingual and bicultural.
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Growing up in the US meant that I could think in 2 languages,
24:06
speak in 2 languages, dream in 2 languages, dance in many
24:10
languages, right? All of that is an asset.
24:13
I graduated Harvard knowing 4 languages, so I could do that in
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quadruple form, right? That was a benefit.
24:21
So I think part of what happens, it's not that I don't go with
24:26
the word resilience. I didn't think of myself as
24:29
resilient. But what I did do was look for
24:33
my community, look for my tribe, and connect to that.
24:39
There's an amazing book titled Why do all the Black kids sit
24:42
together in the cafeteria or something?
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It's something in that, in that sense, and it's this idea.
24:50
Why do students of color group themselves together?
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And it's, it's pretty basic. You look for those that look
25:00
like you, you look for those that are familiar.
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It's survive. So I I find that when we allow
25:10
ourselves to look for those that can create community alongside
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us, at a very basic level we are surviving, but at a higher
25:22
level, what we're doing is making these human to human
25:29
bonds that allow us in fact, to become better human beings.
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We become better human beings in relationship with others, not in
25:39
isolation. So, so actually there's, I mean,
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I'm, I'm just in the midst of writing.
25:46
I was invited to contribute a chapter to a book that will be
25:50
capturing the experiences of those of us who went to Ivy
25:54
League universities, Latino experiences.
25:58
And so I've been writing on this for a couple of weeks now.
26:01
And so it's very fresh. And this is one of the insights
26:04
that I've gleaned from this writing experience, that the
26:09
opportunity to name myself was absolutely central to my
26:17
evolution in an environment that felt very isolating and very
26:21
dissimilar to who and what I knew, to what I knew, to who I
26:25
knew and how I wanted to be. So there was a lot of that.
26:34
No, no, no, thank you for for sharing that Maria.
26:36
And, you know, it's, it's again like emphasizing the, the
26:40
importance of, of community, finding your people, like you
26:43
said. And it sounds like, you know, in
26:47
a way, like pulling out, like the strength, like these
26:50
reserves of like fortitude and identity that are always there,
26:55
but bringing it out to shine so that it's not survival mode like
26:59
what you were saying. Although we, we have, we see
27:02
that quite often in, in certain environments where that's kind
27:05
of the, the, the mentality or the, the way they're operating.
27:08
But you know, to really thrive in these kinds of environments
27:12
where there is difference or maybe there's this overwhelming
27:16
sense of sameness, right? And you're the one that's
27:18
bringing in the diversity and difference that you're, you need
27:21
to, to anchor yourself anew, but with those you know, that are
27:26
like, of like mind or are just again, coming from backgrounds
27:30
that really uplift you rather than do the opposite.
27:34
And then what you were talking about with the labels, I think
27:36
was really fascinating. I hadn't thought about it more
27:41
deeply, but it's so true, right? Once you put a label on on
27:44
anyone or anything, suddenly, right, there's this like boxed
27:49
effect where that's all it can be.
27:52
Or sometimes they can be mislabeled, right, which is
27:54
actually worse. You kind of double compounding
27:57
effect. And and you know, as as as
28:01
living beings, like we're so much more than any kind of
28:04
stagnant kind of label mental concept of what people might be
28:08
perceiving. But you know, it's in this, but
28:12
going back to like that quotation that you shared by
28:14
James Baldwin, but we also can't escape the fact that that
28:18
perception of others does matter to us because of how communal
28:23
and social animals we are. So trying to strike that maybe
28:28
it's not even striking a balance.
28:29
I think it sounds like this is actually tied to the leadership
28:32
aspect of like taking on that responsibility and saying, no,
28:37
I'm going, I'm going to show you who I am and this is me, right?
28:42
And and kind of putting it out there before others can really
28:46
say anything or try to put a label.
28:47
Or if they do, it's like one of those like post it notes that
28:50
wasn't very sticky and they stick it and then it falls off
28:53
like a couple seconds later. That's my imagine.
28:55
They're like, they try to do it and then it's like, Nope, that
28:57
doesn't work. You know, your adhesives are no
28:59
good here kind of thing, but you know that I think that like what
29:05
you experienced at at at Harvard of all places, and how you were
29:09
able to kind of really blossom and then how that probably set
29:12
the tone for these these other careers later down the line.
29:15
I think it's so, so significant. So you know, the this question
29:20
about, you know, I think how how we're perceived the worldview
29:25
that we come into and that and that we sustain that like
29:29
throughout our lives or how it kind of changes.
29:31
There's like so many things about your experience that I
29:34
would love to go into, but they, I don't know, there's just,
29:37
there's so much. I, I kind of wanted to maybe
29:39
focus a little bit more towards like the, the kind of tail end.
29:43
Because I think your realization about like, you know, after all
29:47
of these experiences, like jobs, careers that you've had and then
29:51
you were in a position where you were being asked to teach
29:53
something. I think that, you know, again,
29:56
the leadership component of it is so is so important.
29:59
And I wanted to, to ask a little bit about kind of like, what was
30:03
it like in the early years of like, you're, you know, teaching
30:06
at Soca University And like what, what were you grappling
30:10
with the most? Right?
30:10
What were the kind of the initial questions you were
30:13
posing to yourself as you were really, you know, wanting to
30:16
have that like sense of like, OK, I'm raising the next
30:19
generation of leaders. Like what was like that initial
30:22
rollout? Like, because I'm sure that, you
30:23
know, it changed over time, but like, I'm just curious like take
30:27
us back to that initial point. Well, Scott, it changed so much
30:32
that I often would share with students that my DNA is
30:36
different because of my engagement with them.
30:41
That's how powerful they were as teachers to me.
30:45
So I arrived in Hachioji, Japan, feeling quite confident that I
30:51
understood leadership. I had been a leadership junkie.
30:54
I had gone through every national and international
30:57
leadership fellowship program. I had been a Kellogg Fellow, A
31:01
nationally Hispana leadership Fellow.
31:03
I had been to Harvard, to five of their executive leadership
31:07
programs. I believed I knew leadership
31:11
well. What I discovered when I stepped
31:13
into the classroom and my students were from all over the
31:16
world. In a classroom of 30 students,
31:19
they would be easily representing 1012 countries and
31:23
speak collectively 15 to 18 languages.
31:26
It was like a mini United Nations in every single
31:29
classroom that I taught. And I quickly discovered that my
31:34
Western notion and it was that a Western notion of leadership did
31:43
not speak to them. They saw it as something that
31:48
was ill informed, half baked, and most importantly,
31:58
irrelevant. Now this is the best thing that
32:02
can happen to a professor to, to walk in thinking, I know this
32:06
content and look at the textbooks that I have acquired
32:09
for you, Harvard Business Review, the top ten leadership
32:13
theories. And but you know what, all ten
32:16
of those chapters were written by white European men and their
32:21
perspective, while it spoke to them, did not speak to the
32:23
students that I was teaching from Myanmar, from the
32:27
Philippines, from India, from China.
32:31
And my students taught me that what we need to be able to do is
32:38
expand and understand the lived experience, the narrative of
32:44
their lives, and the importance of making it relevant, Right.
32:51
Without that high level of relevance, this really was just
32:56
abstract theory that came from a Western world.
32:59
And the majority of my students were from the Global South.
33:03
So how was I going to make me mean that would be of value to
33:11
my students? So really it was because my
33:14
students demanded better and I very humbly regrouped and went
33:20
and sought out. I just published a book,
33:24
actually two books have just been published on global
33:26
leadership and in one of them I wrote a chapter.
33:29
I Co wrote a chapter on culturally relevant leadership
33:34
with two of my favorite colleagues, one from Sri Lanka,
33:37
one from Zimbabwe and the three of us are leadership educators.
33:41
And so we joined forces, joined experiences and wrote the
33:47
chapter. Scott, that I would say to you,
33:49
I wish I had had this chapter 10/12/15 years ago when I was
33:58
first understanding leadership theory and leadership models,
34:02
most importantly leadership practice.
34:04
This was the chapter that was missing for me, the chapter that
34:08
said cultural pedagogy, cultural relevance, 1's voice.
34:14
One's positionality matters in any work that we do related to
34:20
leadership, that it is not about leadership position, it is about
34:25
leadership practice. How do we show up?
34:29
And my students came to understand each one of them was
34:33
the leader of their own life. And as a student, while they may
34:38
not have had a title or position, every single morning
34:42
they were having to make leadership decisions.
34:45
And so to position this as a practice, as a life philosophy,
34:52
if you will, absolutely tilted the planet on its axis.
34:57
And that that was the best that could have happened because
35:01
today I am totally different because of their sincere efforts
35:06
to make learning relevant. That's so powerful.
35:12
And, you know, the relationship between student and teacher is
35:17
it's you know, it's just it just comes alive, right, The way
35:20
you're talking about it with such passion and an appreciation
35:23
for what they were able to, you know, teach you yourself right
35:28
to have this. It's almost sounds like it's
35:30
there was like this fire reignited within yourself of
35:33
like learning, you know, differently and like really, you
35:38
know, having that humility like you were talking about to say,
35:41
you know what, like, let's, let's try this again, let's try
35:45
things differently. Let's let's approach it this
35:47
way. And, and then also, I think that
35:50
engagement with them, you know, each student is, is their own,
35:54
you know, universe unto themselves, right?
35:57
But then when you start looking at it from like the, you know,
35:59
their positionality, the cultural aspect, you know, what
36:03
they have going on just in their day-to-day lives.
36:07
You know, I, I, I appreciate how you're able to bring something
36:09
like leadership that that often is kind of put up on a pedestal
36:14
right as position and bring it to this very much like
36:18
manageable and and more approachable practice this right
36:22
where everyone can see themselves as a leader.
36:24
They have that within themselves and should take on that I would
36:28
say to really come from a place of empowerment, right?
36:32
Because there's just so much I think within society that tries
36:36
to tell you otherwise that, Oh no, you don't have power, but
36:40
really actually you do. And, and yeah, and I, and I
36:44
would imagine like between all of those different ethnic
36:47
backgrounds, cultural, you know, you know, take diversities of,
36:52
you know, different, you know, colors and all of that really
36:56
made for wonderful conversation and also wonderful dialogue.
37:00
And actually, I think the first time I, I met with, with you and
37:03
Maria was at a, an academic conference over in Chicago at
37:07
DePaul. And I, I, I recall like you were
37:10
leading like a, a dialogue like activity.
37:14
There was like some kind of like, yeah, we were like
37:16
listening to each other different, you know, times of
37:18
listening and this and that. And, you know, that was, that
37:21
was several years ago. But I'm just curious like how
37:24
does dialogue, like what is dialogue and how does that
37:27
factor into this, this leadership practice that you're
37:31
talking about? Dialogue.
37:34
Dialogic learning has become central to who I am, what I do,
37:39
and how I do it. I absolutely believe in the
37:43
power of dialogue for individual and communal transformation.
37:50
Dialogue is not as Paulo Freida says, it's not ping pong.
37:54
It's not you talk, I talk, you talk, I talk.
37:57
That's that's not dialogue. That's a conversation.
38:00
There's nothing wrong with conversing.
38:02
There's nothing wrong with debating.
38:04
There's nothing wrong with delivering instructions and
38:07
commands. Do not confuse those activities
38:12
with dialogue, Dialogue. One of my mentors, Daisako
38:16
Ikeda, says dialogue has to be transformational.
38:20
Balofreides says the same thing. Dialogue is transformational.
38:25
And so one must set their intention, allow for the
38:30
expansion in themselves to to listen to, to have deep
38:37
listening, to connect head and heart in this experience of
38:41
dialogue in order to be able to emerge different.
38:49
And I would suggest, and others would suggest to actually emerge
38:53
as a better human because you have given yourself and you have
38:58
offered to someone else the privilege of being able to
39:03
voice, to share, to communicate what is at their core.
39:12
So dialogue, dialogic learning for me is absolutely
39:16
transformational. And it is as, as I understand
39:21
education, education is a unique human privilege where we are
39:26
able to engage in a learning space to learn what is learning.
39:34
It's transforming, it's growing. It's this idea.
39:37
I mean, to me, dialogue is stepping into the Crucible and
39:41
allowing the, the, the fire, the heat to transform you.
39:46
So these Crucible experiences, I believe are directly connected
39:51
to dialogic experiences. And, and I think the bigger
39:57
question, I mean, to me, dialogue is a tool.
39:59
The bigger question is for what purpose?
40:02
What is the purpose of dialogue Is the purpose.
40:07
I would suggest to you that one purpose could be to become a
40:10
better human, to become a better human being.
40:14
That to me is the purpose of dialogue.
40:16
So one must always ask that question, what is the purpose?
40:20
And to not confuse purpose with tools, dialogue is a tool.
40:26
It's a pathway for achieving a certain outcome.
40:32
Wow. Amazing.
40:34
I, I, I love, I love the way you, you, you, you provided that
40:37
definition, the way you gave this, this deepening sense of
40:42
how important dialogue is towards really transforming
40:46
oneself on a deep, on the deepest level and ultimately
40:50
towards becoming a better human being.
40:52
I, I don't think people really like, broadly speaking, think of
40:56
dialogue in, in those ways. You know, they might have heard
40:59
of like a monologue and then there's a dialogue and there's,
41:02
OK, then that means there's two people, right?
41:04
But I think the, it's, it's not just exchange of words, right?
41:08
But it's a, it's an exchange of experiences.
41:12
It's an exchange of, of feelings and emotions and it's an
41:15
exchange of, of their very lives, right?
41:17
That's kind of in flux and and in some ways it's kind of like
41:22
through that swirling kind of like, you know, you don't know
41:25
where it's maybe going to even go.
41:28
But to have this refreshed feeling that like, I'm so glad
41:31
that we spent this time together.
41:33
I think there's also this kind of like sense of presentness
41:36
that is really important, right? Especially if you're trying to
41:40
deeply listen to the person, right?
41:42
Very hard to have a dialogue when you're probably scrolling
41:45
on, you know, social media and because, you know, attention can
41:50
only be directed at one place at at one time.
41:54
So you know, this, this purpose of dialogue becoming a better
41:57
human being. I, it really resonates and you
42:00
know, it's you. You mentioned about various
42:05
different individuals like, you know, Paulo Fadi and then you
42:09
also mentioned that Daisaku Ikeda being your mentor.
42:13
Could you maybe speak a little bit more about like, So what
42:16
does dialogue really look like in action through those
42:20
particular individuals? Or you can even bring in
42:23
examples from your students as well.
42:24
I just think it would be nice to have some more examples to kind
42:26
of ground that from the definition that you provided.
42:30
So Paulo Freide introduced a concept decades ago when he was
42:35
advancing his movement of literacy in Brazil, and it was
42:42
the concept of praxis. I mean, he didn't invent it, but
42:46
he very intentionally pushed it to the forefront.
42:50
The idea that we must connect theory to action, that theory
42:55
alone is of less value and less usefulness, less utility than
43:03
theory connected to action. If you learn something, then do
43:06
something about it. And so connecting that back to
43:13
again, the purpose of education. And how does this reveal itself?
43:18
I met, I shared that I was at Soca University for a dozen
43:21
years and the founder of that university is Daisaku Ikeda.
43:24
And one of the mottos of our university is discover your
43:29
potential. So it sounds quite lovely,
43:32
right? But I'm at the point where
43:35
sounding lovely is not enough unless you put it into practice.
43:41
And there are certain concepts that that we now voice just
43:47
flippantly almost. But there's no action, no, no
43:51
deeper level of meaning behind it.
43:54
And so it's difficult. So where did I begin to see
43:57
this, this idea that leadership requires a sense of agency,
44:04
where you understand that you are the agent and you can make a
44:08
difference in teaching and in creating that learning space
44:13
around leadership. Whether it was my global
44:16
leadership course, my women culture and leadership, social
44:20
democracy, social justice course, all of those courses,
44:24
they were always designed with the intention of creating agency
44:29
so that students would begin to own these concepts and then
44:36
challenge themselves to answer the question, now what do I do?
44:40
What will I do with this now? And so one of my favorite books
44:47
by Paulo Freda and Miles Horton is called We Make the Road by
44:52
Walking. And it's this idea.
44:55
It, it's actually a line from a, a Spanish poem, very famous
44:59
Spanish poem. But the idea is that it's only
45:03
by embarking on the journey that you will come to bring to
45:09
fruition that you will begin to live both through successes and
45:12
mistakes. The the concept of leadership.
45:16
I'm going to put leadership here in fill in the blank.
45:18
They were suggesting that we make the road by walking when it
45:21
comes to transformational education, I want to say we make
45:26
the road by walking through the practice of leadership.
45:31
So everyone can learn to be a leader.
45:35
Not everyone should be, though. That was a lesson taught to me
45:39
by my students because I would always encourage them, yes, you
45:42
can be a leader. And then they they'd sit, they'd
45:44
reflect, they'd look at what was going on in the world.
45:49
And then they came to the conclusion, while everyone does
45:51
have the capacity, not everyone does it with the purpose of
45:55
contributing to greater good. And because of that, perhaps
46:00
there should be some limits. Isn't that brilliant?
46:03
Wow. I just.
46:05
I'm just. Yeah, I learned so much from my
46:08
students. And so, yes, you have to put it
46:11
into action. You have the the the concept of
46:13
praxis. How do you embody what you say?
46:18
So at the university, my challenge was to take cordial,
46:25
friendly, inspiring phrases and absolutely tear them apart,
46:30
unpack them and ask students, what does this really mean to
46:34
you? What, what does it mean for us
46:38
to embody this concept? Students would often say, well,
46:42
I value the dignity of every life, which is quite lovely.
46:47
And then I'd say, but what does that mean?
46:49
How do you do that? Well, I'm not sure.
46:51
Well, then you can value it, but if you're not practicing it,
46:57
there's limits there. So Paulo Freide has this concept
47:02
that you have to practice what you preach, if you will.
47:06
Daisaku Ikeda has the same approach and attitude.
47:10
It's not enough to have theory. You must put it into practice.
47:15
And that's that's the true test. That's when you become that
47:20
agentic being of being able to say I, I have made this road by
47:26
walking. Wow, yes, I, I, I love that,
47:31
that phrase. I've I've heard it before and,
47:34
and it's just, it's just so alive with like the sense that
47:37
like, yeah, you are the one with agency, but you're, you're
47:41
charting a course, right? Your life is an adventure.
47:44
And, and then also, it's like, well, while the action itself of
47:48
taking a step forward is important, it's necessary, you
47:52
still need to have a compass and a map or some sense as far as
47:56
where is this really leading towards?
47:58
And, and, and, and so the question of like, you know, or
48:01
the, the, the actions and like the, the classes and the
48:04
discussions at the university and really unpacking what these
48:08
words mean and then following that up with the action.
48:11
It, it makes, it makes so much sense because words matter.
48:15
And then but and we all have these different values, but
48:18
sometimes, right, they can be covered and like sediments of,
48:22
you know, various different maybe formalities, right?
48:25
Kind of going with like, you know, just kind of what's been
48:28
passed along to them. Or, you know, it's just, I think
48:31
really being able to kind of like cut through that or like
48:34
really interrogate that so that the actions are really true to,
48:40
you know, the intentions and then the ultimate goal.
48:43
I think that's very, very important and very much tied to
48:46
this conversation about what leadership really means and what
48:50
kind of leadership is needed for, you know, the world at this
48:53
point. So it sounds like, you know, all
48:56
of these things that we've been talking about, right?
48:59
The need for, you know, understanding one's
49:02
positionality, looking at our contributions to our community,
49:06
how we we create our own sense of home through those around us,
49:11
but also recognizing we can pull out, you know, our own, you
49:15
know, deeper sense of like, this is who I am from, from our
49:19
upbringing. And then carrying that through
49:21
our experiences and like actions that we take on a day-to-day
49:25
basis in the form of leadership. All of this is kind of, you
49:28
know, then getting funneled into like, you know, this goal of
49:31
like, well, are we truly transforming, like learning and
49:34
then transforming to hopefully become a better human being?
49:39
I guess that the last bit or like, you know, kind of of this
49:42
continuity is like, so that does that ultimately mean the better
49:46
human being is what we would say is the global citizen in this
49:50
case, right? This long journey, this process
49:52
that we're that you we've been talking about.
49:54
Can you just kind of speak a little bit to that?
49:57
Is it really one for one? Is that it or is there some kind
50:00
of difference in nuance to like, you know, just, you know, saying
50:04
become a better human being means becoming a global citizen?
50:07
Do you want to speak to that just really briefly?
50:10
Absolutely. Because I've written about it,
50:13
I've spoken on it, I teach this. There are multiple, multiple,
50:18
multiple definitions for global citizen and global citizenship
50:22
education. And what I would suggest is that
50:27
we need to pay attention to the question, for what purpose?
50:32
We have to challenge ourselves to step away from the simple
50:38
concept or the concept that we all have shared agreement on
50:45
global citizenship. We do not.
50:46
It's like saying everyone understands love in the same
50:50
way. Absolutely not.
50:52
Everyone has a different definition, approach and
50:56
engagement with the concept of love.
50:58
I would suggest to you that global citizenship is as complex
51:03
as love. And so how will I then explain
51:09
what it means to be a better human being in relationship to
51:12
global citizenship? Well, it for me, it's driven by
51:15
my response to the question, global citizenship for what
51:19
purpose In my world, global citizenship for the purpose of
51:24
creating and contributing to the to the greater good that global
51:29
citizenship, as some understand it, is for an expansion of
51:34
capitalism. That's not my definition, right,
51:38
But that's a very common definition.
51:40
It's an assumed definition in some circles.
51:43
And so part of what I want to suggest is that we cannot have
51:48
the conversation without asking for what purpose?
51:54
Leadership for what purpose? For yourself?
51:58
Advancement or for the greater good?
52:01
Global citizenship education for what purpose?
52:05
To fill in a curriculum requirement for first graders or
52:11
for first year college students? Or is it in order to be able to
52:20
extend yourself to others? And we cannot talk about global
52:26
citizenship without talking about power and privilege.
52:32
In my worldview, the two are inextricably linked.
52:38
And so it's actually, it actually, as you can tell, it's
52:42
becoming more complex. So my my ask is for us not to
52:48
try to simplify what this is, what this concept is, what this
52:53
work is about, but in fact to heighten our level of comfort
52:58
with the complexity of this concept.
53:02
I want you to be more comfortable with the complexity,
53:07
the messiness, the the paradox that all of this is about.
53:13
If you're looking for simple answers in a checklist, I would
53:16
suggest take a different class. Don't take Maria's classes
53:20
because I'm not going to give you a checklist.
53:22
I'm going to push you and ask why does this matter and does it
53:28
matter to you? Thank you.
53:34
Thank you, Maria, for that. Yeah, I think it, it emphasizes
53:37
not only like the critical thinking component of really
53:41
interrogating kind of what's before us and getting to a
53:44
deeper sense of how it ties back to ourselves and then ultimately
53:49
towards, you know, what we're seeking to contribute and what
53:53
our aims are. It's like the this.
53:57
Yeah. I think we really need to
53:59
continue to like just discuss the topic and realize that
54:03
there's, there's so much more to to learn from, from each other
54:06
in dialogue. And there's kind of reason why I
54:09
wanted to have this conversation with you and with so many other
54:13
wonderful and incredibly inspiring educators around the
54:17
world. Because I do think that, you
54:19
know, this as as we're starting to see in the world around us,
54:22
more and more need for us to like speak, right, to use our
54:26
voice to, to be empowered and to, you know, ultimately get
54:30
clear on like the aims of of education of yeah, like, again,
54:36
just global citizenship and to not shy away from from that.
54:40
I think, you know, there is power in saying, you know, but I
54:43
am a global citizen, right? Like, why are you pushing back?
54:46
But I think that we can deepen that sense and through that
54:50
deepening process. I think this goes back to what
54:52
you were really emphasizing is by being kind of challenged or
54:56
being asked to interrogate it, to analyze it, to think deeply
54:59
about it, then we take action, you know, even more confidently,
55:03
right? Because, you know, now we've
55:05
done all this work, right? And so, you know, the steps
55:07
might be even more like confident, more firm.
55:11
And, you know, that's ultimately, you know, we need to
55:13
get in a different place than where we are right now.
55:15
And I think the work that you've done over many, many a year,
55:19
the, you know, probably at this point, thousands and thousands
55:21
of students that have taken your classes or have had
55:25
conversations and dialogues with you over the years would really
55:29
attest that I think they're they're they're they're feeling
55:33
of agency has grown And that they really, you know, probably
55:37
extend that same question for what purpose to other people
55:41
they come into it. So it's a multiplier effect,
55:43
which I think is really why, yeah, the work of educators is
55:46
so desperately needed, especially when they encounter a
55:51
really amazing, you know, incredible 1 like you.
55:54
So thank you so much, Maria, for for all of this opportunity to
55:58
learn more about your experiences.
56:00
Oh, I do have one more question, though.
56:02
It's important question. I always ask my my, my guests,
56:07
do you have any book or movie recommendations?
56:09
Anything you'd like to share with with the listeners?
56:12
Scott, I'm a reader, so I love books and the one that I just
56:17
finished yesterday, powerful book by Jose Andres, who runs
56:22
the World Central Kitchen. He's the chef.
56:25
Michelin's, you know, starred chef who also started, he's the
56:30
founder of World Central Kitchen.
56:31
The title of the book, change the recipe.
56:34
And actually this little yellow book, very easy to read, very
56:40
conversational. It's a book about leadership.
56:43
It's about how he, as this young boy in Spain, learned that he
56:48
loved cooking and was encouraged to cook and then came to the
56:51
United States at the age of 23 and ended up becoming a chef and
56:56
cooking and having to figure out and then discovering, well,
56:59
people are starving. You know, this country just had
57:02
an earthquake and people need to be fed.
57:04
Or this country just had a hurricane and are devastated, or
57:09
there's a war in Ukraine and people are going hungry.
57:14
So here Jose goes in and through his nonprofit organization,
57:19
World Central Kitchen, feeds 1,000,000 millions.
57:25
And I loved and This is why I say it's a leadership book.
57:28
He says I hate meetings. And the only thing that matters
57:31
is if you take action. So this whole idea of praxis is
57:36
is front and center. So that was that.
57:38
That's one book. I have other books, but I also
57:41
want to share. It's not a movie, but it's a
57:45
drama. And one thing that I told myself
57:49
is that I would never become one of those people like my parents
57:52
watching Mexican telenovelas, you know, the the, the sort of
57:57
soap operas that they showed on Mexican TV.
58:00
Well, I find myself in Japan during the pandemic with nothing
58:05
else to watch, and I end up starting to watch Korean dramas.
58:10
I told myself I would never do it.
58:12
And there I was. Now I am hooked.
58:15
Like, I mean, I'm definitely hooked.
58:18
But in all seriousness, this particular drama is one that
58:23
speaks to the complexity of globalization, global
58:28
citizenship, the assumptions that we make and the
58:32
contradictions that we have to face if we are to emerge in a
58:38
more authentic space. And that drama is called Mr.
58:41
Sunshine. It's based on, it's a historical
58:45
drama that was based in the late 1800s where a young child is
58:53
left orphaned by the war in court in Korea, although it
58:57
wasn't a country then, it was the Josen Empire.
59:00
And a missionary takes him to the United States.
59:05
So a religious missionary plucks up this little orphan boy, takes
59:09
him to the United States, and he's raised in the US, speaks
59:14
English, joins the Naval Academy and becomes a naval officer who
59:19
then is stationed in Korea at the turn of the century.
59:24
And the complexity of that relationship, of him trying to
59:28
find home, trying to understand what does it mean to have a
59:33
world view that is not singular in nature, but bicultural.
59:41
And how do you understand concepts such as patriotism,
59:47
democracy, engaged relationships that are very complex.
59:53
So anyway, to me, it, it captures many, many aspects.
59:59
I've often asked which one of my students will ever write their
1:00:03
capstone on this particular drama.
1:00:05
And the reason is because it's all about leadership.
1:00:10
So those are just two, two recommendations, the book I just
1:00:13
finished reading and a drama that to me captures the
1:00:17
complexity of many of the concepts that we've just
1:00:21
addressed. Thank you so much, Maria, for
1:00:26
those two recommendations. Maybe I will be the student that
1:00:28
writes about Mr. Sunshine. I never know.
1:00:33
I'll take it on, you know, I'll start by watching it first.
1:00:36
But but thank you so much. Those are those are great.
1:00:39
And but yeah, this conversation has been so, so insightful.
1:00:43
And so, man, like we've covered so much, you know, so it was
1:00:48
just like there was just a whole, you know, life's worth of
1:00:51
like experience and then various, you know, different
1:00:54
themes and like kind of wrestling with different
1:00:56
concepts. And, you know, I think there's
1:00:58
just so much for our listeners to really unpack themselves and
1:01:02
to also like interrogate just kind of like, yeah, for what
1:01:04
purpose are they going about with their work?
1:01:07
How are they making sense of these concepts themselves?
1:01:09
Are they applying that and within their their immediate
1:01:12
work and their relationships? So yes, very thought provoking
1:01:16
indeed. So, you know, thank you so much,
1:01:18
Maria. And you know, I, I always like
1:01:20
to have my guests have the the last word.
1:01:23
If there's any like final, final thoughts or send offs that you'd
1:01:26
like to have as we conclude this this wonderful conversation.
1:01:32
I would just say don't shy away from the complexity.
1:01:35
Run into the fire and sit. Sit in that Crucible and allow
1:01:40
for the transformation to emerge.
1:01:42
Thank you, Scott, so much. Music.