Latest / FOLLOW / What happens when the mask stops working? /// FOLLOW with Dr. Harvey Powers

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What happens when the mask stops working? /// FOLLOW with Dr. Harvey Powers · FOLLOW

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: All of the writers, including the ancients in spiritual formation, you know, talk about coming to the end of yourself or brokenness or dark night of the soul.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Those are all ways of trying to describe the crucible process that begins to open the portal for transformation.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Brokenness tends to take us when we engage it to a dependence on God through his spirit in a different way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: You got to come out of hiding.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: First with yourself and then with someone else and potentially in community.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's at 1 Corinthians 3.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: We stand with unveiled faces.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: You got to take your mask off.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, that's the most exposed place, naked place we can be, especially sometimes around our greatest uh failures or mistakes or so on.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Follow Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus is right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he says is true.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what we're exploring.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: All that Jesus said was true, and how to rearrange our lives around it.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best way to just address you as the legend you are?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: I've been trying to get my wife to call me Dr.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Powers forever, and she just goes with Harv on a good day.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: So that's all cool with me.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: Harvey is fucking okay.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: What we're exploring right now is the intersection of faith and mental health in particular.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, that's why we thought, man, uh, with your expertise, your background, this would just be a pretty, pretty awesome conversation.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think so too.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe a helpful context uh for you guys with me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: I uh uh many years ago, over 40 plus years ago, started out as an inner city pastor in Philadelphia in Germantown, actually.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a classic dying inner city church.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: All the whites had whites had moved to the suburbs as the neighborhoods changed.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: And just a handful of, you know, 65 plus whites were keeping the church alive.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: And myself and another guy came in to do sort of a uh a renovation project there, lived in the neighborhood, reached out uh to the people in our community, all the classics, started youth program.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: And when I left, it was about 70% African American, and the rest Asian Hispanic, and a little bit of white.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I had no experience in cross-cultural ministry, learned a lot.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: But one of the things that came out of that is I was doing everything you normally do to disciple people, you know, get them in the word, teach them some spiritual practices, service project, uh, those sorts of things.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: I found that sometimes people were blocked in their growth process.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I began to be really curious about that.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: How do you deal with that?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: What does that mean?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I uh went to Western Seminary to do advanced training, and I did uh my seminary training and also a PhD in clinical site.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: But the goal in that was to understand transformational process, which is another way to talk about spiritual formation.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: What is transformation?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: What are the things that block it?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: How do you facilitate that?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: And uh then I did my postdoc residency in Dallas working with the first wave of Christian counseling clinics.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And because of what it was, it pulled uh believers and leaders in particular from all over the world there, kind of as a measure of the last resort.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, these are men and women dedicated, tons of Bible and theology on their hard drives, sacrificed a bunch, but were blocked also somehow.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: And starting to see some core themes that emerged in that.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh for a period, I was assistant director of counseling services at Dallas Seminary.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: And same thing, trying to serve faculty, staff, and alumni uh around some of the same kinds of dynamics.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and again, uh, you know, from our tradition broadly, you know, we tend to look at uh transformational process and spiritual formation as sort of a combination of know the right thing, discipline yourself to do it.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: And there's value in that, obviously, but transformation is a completely different thing.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I've spent 40 years trying to understand this, work with leaders, individuals, marriages, and so on around this issue.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: So near and dear to my heart, I have lots of thoughts about it.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about the block.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious, like what you've learned that blocks us, you know, from that transformational process.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I'm I'm sure it's a spectrum, it's a myriad of different terms or words or phrases, but yeah, are there are there keys blockers that man just seem to prevent the kind of transformation that Jesus desires for us in John 10?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, um it's a great question, and I'll start at a high view uh and approach it from sort of a theological perspective.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: I I think we have a very distorted view of anthropology.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: Who are human beings and how do they work?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, in broadly our tradition, and especially more or less post-reformation forward, uh, we have sort of a Western compartmentalized view of anthropology.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so you know, you see it in body, soul, spirit, material, immaterial, all the ways that theologians try to talk about human beings.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: But what that results in is sort of uh a linear view of change and transformation.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: So depending on who you are, you might say, hey, cognitions, thinking right is the most important place to start.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: And if you think right, then you'll do right, and then your emotional life will change.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: And while there's some merit in that, other people would say, uh, from a faith-based tradition, they would say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Behavior is the important thing.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: You discipline yourself with certain kinds of practices, behavior, that will change your thinking, which will change your experience and your emotional life.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: And if you come from a more charismatic point of view, you would say, you know, you have to have this experience with God, which will change those other things.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: And but the problem with that is it is a compartmentalized anthropology.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, we know it doesn't work that way.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: So if we could think about much more of a holistic view of anthropology, we could say this.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I like to diagram it this way.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: If you took a circle, this is a human being.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: How much of us are uh is a cognitive uh being?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, when are we not?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Our thinking's evolved in everything.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Or you put another circle over the top of that.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: How much of us are behavioral beings?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, when are we not?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: How much of us are emotional beings?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: When are we not?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: How much of us are spiritual?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: So the idea in a holistic view, which is much more of kind of an Eastern, you know, Middle Eastern view, uh, that changes how we think about transformational process.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, how I would diagram that for the sake of simplicity, if you took these different circles and said, okay, this is how we operate holistically, some of these circles are more accessible.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: So our thoughts are more accessible.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we can learn information.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Our behavior actually is kind of more accessible than trying to shift our emotions or sometimes even our spiritual life.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: But what I would say is what transformation is, is whenever we have these things that start to occur that uh our emotional shifts impact our thoughts, which impact our behavior, which impact our spiritual perspective, that when all of these things are starting to resonate like a harmonic, what happens at the core is metamorphosis.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's a it's a shift at our core, or a different way of saying it using New Testament language, Jesus did this all the time.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: The locus of transformation is cardia, our heart, which is not emotion, it's our core, which involves emotions, but all of the other things.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a really interesting thing to begin to look at uh passages that talk about transformation.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's only, I think the word metamorphosis is only used, if I remember, three times in the New Testament.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the one we always go to from our tradition is Romans 12, 1 and 2, which I think we totally misinterpret that, you know, be renewed in your mind, uh, etc.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: And we sort of interpret that as a cognitive behaviorism.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: But uh that passage, if we really interpret it from an Old Testament background and a Middle Eastern view, it's the hermeneutic behind that is, you know, it's like, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, and soul.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: He's not talking about parts, he's using that Hebrew uh perspective of saying the same thing again and again, but with different language.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think uh the the Romans 12 passage, he's using mine, but he's really getting at a holistic idea.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: The other one I think uh where it's used metamorphosis is in, if I remember correctly, 1 Corinthians uh 3.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's my favorite passage on transformation, 318 uh says, and we now all uh behold the glory of God with unveiled faces and our being transformed, progressive tense from glory to glory by the Spirit.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: So whenever you look at that, you can't you can't make that a cognitive behavioral thing.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's this fundamentally different thing.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um the other thing that um uh uh passage is is the Mount of Transfiguration, where we see Jesus fundamentally transformed, and the disciples are exposed to that, 1 Corinthians 3.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: So transformation comes from an exposure to God at a core level, and then something fundamentally shifts in us.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Now, for most of us, I think our first experience of transformation is actually regeneration.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: When the spirit works in our heart and we become spiritually alive, it's a fundamental shift that changes everything.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: And for most of us, we spend the rest of our life as believers trying to figure out what the heck happened to us in that.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: But it's the work of the spirit where something shifts and it affects our thoughts, our perspective, our emotions, our behavior progressively.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: So to answer your question, I think sometimes when we reduce uh transformation and also uh spiritual formation to a cognitive behaviorism, well, there's value in that, it falls way short of what transformation is.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: But it's based on a uh biblical anthropology.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: We operate in holistic ways, and when something shifts at the core, it affects everything else.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: When you describe transformation, uh how do you then describe it for the layperson?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: How do you describe, hey, this then is what you should be pursuing, or this is how you step into the process?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: How do you describe that?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and your question has kind of two parts embedded in it.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, one is do we have some indication of the process of transformation?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll I'll address that.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: But what is transformation?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: The first part of your question, you know, the Greek word metamorphing, uh, it is a compound, meta and morph in the original, and it's a change of structure.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of times we'll use the metaphor of the caterpillar into the butterfly.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: Butterfly is fundamentally different than a caterpillar, it's just not a better caterpillar.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's a change of structure uh in our interior, and I I think that's what transformation is.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um now uh there are plenty of examples of transformational process in the biographies of scripture, those that we have enough uh to really get a flavor of.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: But I think there are a couple of passages that give us a high view outline of transformational process.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: One of them is in James 1, familiar passage, but you have to see it as a process.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh count it all joy when you encounter various trials, knowing the testing of your faith produces endurance, and let endurance have its perfect result in you that you may be complete, lacking in nothing.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: The first part of that is this trials thing.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: And a core part of transformational process is encountering crucible events.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the word trials there in the original has two sort of meanings.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: One is the idea of a journey or like an ordeal, sort of like Lord of the Rings, being on a traversing process.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: The the second part of the word has to do with the idea of squeezing.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what crucibles do.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: They squeeze us so that what's on the inside comes on the outside.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: Next step in that James passage is uh endurance.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it's the Greek word hupo-menane, men stay, hupo under.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it's developing this visualization of being in the crucible or under the crucible.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: And our job is not to abort the process, which is all of our reflex, staying with or under the process.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: And if we do that, you know, God through the spirit begins to work at a core level to create maturity or completeness in us.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's one place, but I think that's the way it happens.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: And all of the writers, including the ancients in spiritual formation, you know, talk about coming to the end of yourself or brokenness or dark night of the soul.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Those are all ways of trying to describe the crucible process that begins to open the portal for transformation.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: So uh earlier question, what blocks it?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that block it when we abort the process uh that can uh divert us.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: The other place, and we don't normally think of it this way, I think Jesus in in Matthew 5, his first public teaching, uh, that, you know, we call it the Sermon on the Mount.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: But if you think about it, uh, as Jesus uh shares what I believe is his core operating system there, uh, he starts with what we call the beatitudes.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the beatitudes are actually a process, not individual proverbial statements.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think the first four of those are the journey inward to brokenness.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he starts with kind of uh or uh blessed are those who uh are essentially falling ones, poor in the the Greek there is those who have been at a higher state and have fallen to a lower state.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Brokenness.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: Next one is blessed are those uh who mourn.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: What are they mourning?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Being in the crucible, for they will be comforted.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh paracleto is the Greek there.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, who's who's the paraclete?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: The Holy Spirit.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: Brokenness tends to take us when we engage it to a dependence on God through his spirit in a different way.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: The next one in the process is interpreted differently, meek.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's uh uh um interpreted humility.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: The the original there, I think humility is a better uh interpretation, has to do with getting grounded.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: Our English word uh humility comes from the old English humus or the soil.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think the broken process recalibrates, reorients us to God's reality.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: And then it ends with hunger and thirst for righteousness in the first four.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's not a principle that we're hungry for.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a person, only oneness righteous.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: So this initial brokenness drives us toward God, recalibrates us, grounds us, creates a ravenousness uh for the person of the Father.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then the last four are how that plays out.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: We become peaceful ones in the world, etc., ending with blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that is not that we become annoying as Christians.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think we become counter-cultural.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: So as the shift occurs, we're recalibrated with a different mindset and perspective.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the rest of the Sermon on the Mount are practical ways that that manifests, turning the other cheek.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's not according to natural law, going the extra mile, uh, love those who hate you, etc.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: So as we go through that inner transformational process that starts with the initial crisis, the poor in spirit, that I think uh I think that is Jesus' outline of transformational process.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: And when you look at the biographies in scripture over and over again, that's exactly what happened.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: People reach this crisis point where they come to the end of themselves or they're in a crucible.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, think about it, Moses, uh, Jacob, Joseph, David, uh, Saul of Tarsus, Peter, so on and so on and so on.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: You begin to see it, and you also get some powerful contrast.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think the best one in scripture is the difference between David, who experienced his own crisis and then confrontation with Nathan.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: He went inward, and you remember Psalm 51, you know, the sacrifices of God are a broken and contrite heart, cardiac, versus Saul.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Saul was in his own, King Saul was in his own crucible, but you see him progressively resisting that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, with all of the ripple effects that came out of that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, what is the process of transformation?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you need typically a really good crisis in your life.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: But James 1 says you don't have to go looking for it, you encounter them.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: So if you want to get in a uh transformational crucible, get married.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Have a marriage, that'll do it, or have kids, that will do it, or have an adolescent, that will do it.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: Or God forbid, you work on a church staff, that will do it every single time, right?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: So that is God's process, I think, of transformational shift.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: And spiritual formation is language trying to understand that, but from a slightly different framework, but it's trying to get at the same thing.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: Other than that, I haven't thought about this.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, seriously.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: So for me and my ministry with leaders and individuals and marriages, when cut people come in in a crisis, uh, I I start salivating a little bit.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, not for their pain, but it's like, oh, we may see a transformational window portal begin to open for these people.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: But they need guidance in it, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: So that it doesn't go sideways.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: What talk about the the role of shame and the role of as you're walking through that transformational process, that crucible, what what are the i kind of identities that seemingly make it through the crucible well?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and what are the the kinds of identities that seemingly choose to abort or get stuck?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great question, 100%.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: I have a slightly different view around shame.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm gonna say something kind of shocking and dramatic when I say this.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think shame is uh is satanic.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: What do I mean?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Satan's modus operandi is to take God's truth and bend it a little bit.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think uh where we see that first manifest, uh, of course, is post-fall immediately.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: So when was the first time a human being ever felt shame?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: When was the first time a human being ever felt afraid?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: And when was the first time a human being ever hid the toxic triad of the fall?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think shame is a bending of guilt.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: What is guilt?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's the work of a good conscience, uh, where it either convicts us or approves us, and when it convicts us, As you guys know, uh guilt is meant to lead us to repentance or repair.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that's the purpose of a good conscience, to move toward God uh and and others.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what shame does is it drives us into hiding.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: Some would say uh guilt uh is about our behavior or lack of or our actions.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Shame gets attached to personhood.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: Not I failed, but I am identity, a failure.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's truth in that, I really do.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: And shame, uh what it does is it traps people in sort of a cul-de-sac, if you will, uh, and it and it robs them of a core identity.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And what the reflex in shame is, is to hide in whatever way we hide.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: There's a zillion ways to do that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I think uh shame does block people from transformational process.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it's interesting to think about it, as you guys know, you know, Adam and Eve uh in the garden, perfect place, pre-fall, somehow had a manifestation of a corporal presence of God, walked with them in the cool of the day.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: When they failed, why did why did Adam and Eve not move toward God?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Why did they hide?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: They knew his nature, his father.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: Why did so I think that's the bending of guilt into something else?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it has fear at its core, shame always does, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: If you really knew me, you would agree that I'm kind of defective at a core, and I think that that bogs people down.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: So having a safe place where people aren't uh uh judged in the sense of their personhood and also helping them to come out of hiding becomes crucial in breaking the power of shame and opens the portal for transformation.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: But why we don't do it, I think at the core is often we're afraid and we keep our defensive structures hiding in place somehow.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: How does someone work through that process knowing it has almost a gravitational pull in and of itself, right?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like it does so powerful, uh and and it almost is like um it grows in strength the more that we live in its pull, right?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you like if this is a blocker, which I believe it's truly a blocker, right?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: If I look at your transformational process, which really resonates, it seems as if just that core idea of shame has the potential to to keep you from ever in g well engaging in a transformational process.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: You're still gonna be in you're gonna be in a crucible whether you like it or not, right?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: That would mean like absolutely in Jesus it Jesus said in this life you will have trouble.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're going into a crucible guaranteed it is what then will happen in here.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: So how in your experience you've you've you've you've been doing this for 30 plus years, uh, and uh how does someone break out of the gravitational pull of shame?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, um in principle, and we'll talk about specifics, you got to come out of hiding first with yourself and then with someone else, and potentially in community.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's that first Corinthians three.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: We stand with unveiled faces.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: You got to take your mask off.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, that's the most exposed place, naked place we can be, especially sometimes around our greatest uh failures or mistakes or so on.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I I really think uh Eric, we have to come out of hiding to do that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you can't come out of hiding.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I would say first you have to do that with yourself.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: I I have to look in the mirror, James 1, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: And keep looking.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and then secondly, we we usually need a guide, a transformational redemptive guide to help us do that.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just a solo activity.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then sometimes we even need community, meaning more than one other person.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now, not a cast of thousands, it's a core group that we can fully take our mask off.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say uh also, and it's true in my own life, I'm sure you guys will relate.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we need others to help us take our mask off.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: They see things that we cannot see ourselves.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: So taking that mask off, being honest with ourselves, coming taking taking it off, uh coming out of hiding, uh, those sorts of things begin to open the portal for that inward journey of understanding the deeper things inside of me.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the tricky part, man, we can hide in so many creative ways.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think those of us uh, you know, who have been gifted with good intellect uh by God and have lots of experience and capacity, I can hide by lots of good competencies in my life.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh still hiding, though.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so it's really hard to pull those off to look at a deeper place.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: We can hide behind religiosity, as you guys know.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, sound really good on the outside and, you know, really at one level believe what we're saying, but on the inside, there's something working its way to the surface, and we we have to take the risk to open that up.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's particularly hard for leaders, to be frank, uh, for a bunch of reasons.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the competencies we have as leaders, but also, boy, exposing yourself as a leader in our world today, you guys know what that's like.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's brutal.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: Leaders get canceled really quickly and villainized.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it's hard for leaders to find a safe place to do that to take their mask off.
• 28:29
  unknown: Wow.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's so good.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about your framework.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I suppose when we think about taking your mask off and being vulnerable, there may be certain situations where you are forced to take it off.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: I I suppose.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um where you don't have a choice, you've been caught red-handed, you have been whatever that might be.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I I also was thinking about Dallas Willard's framework of Vim, a vision, intention, and means.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think this is uh, you know, short of being confronted, how do you then move someone to the place of going, hey, you have to believe me, taking your mask off is a better way.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you've you know, I often say this about myself.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: I am really good at being um inauthentically authentic.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like I can put on the practice of you could be around me, and this has been something that I've I've really worked on for decades, is you can be around me and believe I'm genuinely authentic, but it's actually a role.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I yeah, I have a therapist, and I told my therapist, I said, here's this is what I've learned about this process of acting, which is what this is, right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Acting is um I have a script and a playbook.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't know what to do when I'm done with the playbook.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: When I get to the end of it, I'm like, I don't put my, I don't know where to put my hands.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what to do with it.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I know this isn't real.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: But but I was thinking about Dallas's invitation and the importance of short of being forced to confront the reality of your inauthenticity or your the mask that you're wearing.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: He talks about vision and that there has to be a compelling vision somewhere from someone that says, hey, life in the kingdom, it really is better.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: This life, this way, the way of Jesus, it it it is it is better.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: I I know that you're hiding, I know that it feels safe, I know that it's comfortable, I whatever that is, but there is a the the importance of understanding that life in the kingdom, this way of living is a better way because short of that I think it's hard for people to step into it sh short of being like someone you confronted, right?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Forced, forced.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, uh when we talk about uh the the crucible or the crisis point, that comes in a thousand different ways.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes, you know, we want to think it means some sort of gigantic moral failure where we blow our life up publicly, and certainly we have plenty of examples of that.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: But the crisis can come in other ways too.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it can come through a really tough season in marriage, or you can have a kid that you're worried to death about who's suicidal and you come to the end of yourself because you feel so helpless, or it can be a physical illness or a financial sideways thing, or whatever it is.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: I've had people that the crisis is they're high performers, they make a bazillion dollars, they have everything anyone could ever want, and they're going, is this all there is?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's a crisis of meaning.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, another one that's a big one, uh, and I think it's creative design, is aging.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: As we age, we come to a limitation in our abilities, and we start to need other people in a different way.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so there's a thousand pathways into the crisis itself.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Now, uh, for a person in the midst of the crisis, uh, you know, when we look at the person, uh, kind of like Moses, I call it the Well of Midian experience.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: You're sitting there smoldering and how you burnt your life down in some way, to have someone else say, Man, this is a great thing.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: You're really gonna, I mean, that that means nothing.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's kind of offensive, to be frank.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: What I think uh Eric helps encourage people is hearing stories of transformational process in real people's lives, including our own.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know how it is.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: If we're going to guide people in this, we have to be in our own transformational process.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: I have to know what it's like to come to the end of myself and step to a place of vulnerability.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: And if I have, you will sense that in my story as I try to encourage you.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: So, first and foremost, I think it has to be in the stories of people, you know, that really tell it in a in a very specific way about here's my crisis, this is what I experienced, here's what God shifted inside of me, and so on.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, if you look at the scriptures through this lens, we got stories all over the place, you know.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the people we call heroes of faith were like a hot freaking mess.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: And but that's who God uses.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: In my book, Redemptive Leadership, I say one of the chapters, God only uses broken people.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that's true.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's no other kind.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: You look at Paul, man.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: I tell you, you know, when he gives us his curriculum vitae, I was a murderer, a blasphemer, killed women and children, I was shipwrecked.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: That is not the resume you you expect of a hero of the faith.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: But that that's the counterintuitive nature.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: So stories.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's how we encourage people through stories of people who are in or have gone through a cycle of transformational process.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or w where am I feeling unsafe in this crucible?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or what is this like feeling that I am my personhood is wrong and bad?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even just the way you've just gently just and yet powerfully just it's like it's almost like a key um of like being able to look at this and go, oh man, how many times have I missed the invitation?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Be and and and not seen it as going, oh, of course that's that's how the enemy it is satanic, that's how the enemy's gonna want to pull me from the goodness of the kingdom, the goodness of the trueness of what God wants.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um but just as you're as you're walking with people in these crises, you know, and you said you get salivated, you get like super excited about the portal is opening, the bush is getting ready to ignite.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: How do you help them um kind of let down those masks?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or not play to those same narratives, or oh, this is how this is how it always has been with me.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is how it all like how do you kind of um um Eric, what's the phrase you always say about the brain?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like re like you're almost like retraining the the brain neurons or neural pathways.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the neuro neuropathways.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: You're doing brain surgery on yourself.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, how how do you that spiritual transformational brain surgery process?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do you help people to actually go, okay, I'm gonna trust this guy and I'm gonna believe it?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I this is the kind of preaching I wish people were hearing and getting to digest and try on, um, and and see it in scripture, see what's invite in being invited uh to them, you know, and so yeah, I don't know if that makes sense.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, at a very practical level, uh, you know, creating a safe environment, uh, so having a non-judgmental posture, and that has to be genuine on the inside, having a different framework, being able to see this as not just, you know, as an example, a moral failure and bad on you, but saying, okay, this is a window of opportunity for you to do inward work, you know, and we're beginning to reframe what's going on in a person's life to give them a little bit of a different language.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think another thing that we do that Jesus was a master of, uh, he is constantly disorienting people's unconscious, subconscious, or conscious narratives.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: The narrative of thinking in a certain way, uh, and he disoriented them.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I think often as we engage people, we begin to disorient their frameworks or the normal way of seeing it, which, by the way, always feels the same.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning, if you're on the receiving end, you go, What?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't get that.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it when we disorient people enough, then that opens them up to begin to see and learn in a different way.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you probably read this.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: Some of the ancients in spiritual formation would say you have to go from orientation to disorientation so you can reorient.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: But that first phase, disorienting people, and I would say holding people a little bit in disorientation.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, that's a it's a bit like the uh chrysalis in the Caterpillar to Butterfly, where the old the old system doesn't work anymore, and I don't know what to do with that or where to go with.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think that's an essential part of it.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then coming out of that, people start to become open to see themselves, to see others around them, and ultimately to see God in a radically different way.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let me this keeps just pinging in my mind, Harv, because I and and I don't want to put my words to it.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Let me just tell you what what I keep hearing uh uh uh around the crucible, like this whole invitation.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um in many ways it reframes some of the hardest seasons of our lives.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it does, right?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Could you because I hear you talking and it's radically it does it gives suffering like a location, like some sort of location in the sequence because it feels here's been my experience.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: The hardest part of suffering is the meaninglessness of it, right?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: When you have nothing to grab onto, and it's just like what am I supposed to do with my pets' heads falling off and the house is on fire, and that's right.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: So could you am I first am I hearing that right?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um yes, yes, and yes.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, uh again, in some ways, uh we're talking about a practical theology, but but we generally, from our traditions, especially here in North America and in the West, uh, we really don't have very much of a good theology around suffering.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, kind of necessary evil, uh, you know, that you have to go through, or worse, we discover that we have sort of a quid pro quo transactional relationship.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Hey God, I did my part.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: Now my kid's sick with cancer.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Who are you?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so we go through the desert to get to the promised land.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole point of the desert.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh instead of seeing uh whatever life deals us that God does permit but may not cause, uh you know, as those things are the things that he uses to form us through his spirit.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a radically different mindset.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so in some ways, I would say this is too simplistic.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: When people are asking the why question, why did God allow this to happen in my life?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're trying to process their pain and we have to treat that well and with compassion.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: The better question is what is God trying to form in me in this circumstance?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because that is the point.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: God will use it.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Even if I burn my life down at my own hands, God's still going to use that redemption, right?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: Redemptively to try to transform me, uh, transform me if I can engage that.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I would agree we don't have a very good theology of suffering.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, another thing is uh uh that you know transactional approach to God that's sort of embedded at certain stages of faith development, um, it that we have to grow beyond.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh people in other parts of the world don't even ask the same questions.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you grow up in Rwanda and half your extended family was killed through the genocide, or you lived under Idi Amin or the Sudan, you know, suffering is like everywhere, always people have a different mindset about it, where we believe, you know, if we're faithful, God will prevent that stuff, which is just not the case.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: So changing our theology around suffering, but the bigger idea, like we're talking about, is developing a good theology of transformation, because suffering is a component of that, uh, but it's in a broad much broader metaphor along that line.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Now, one thing I would say for us who are transformational guides in people's lives, and we know this, but it's important to say, uh I'm skilled at what I do, have thought it through, as you guys can tell uh theologically and practically, but I cannot create transformation in anyone's life.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's the work of the spirit, man.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's a miracle.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I can participate, guide it, support it, help people get a language around it.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: But man, it's an encounter with the spirit that changes people.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, you know, we can get skilled at guiding it, but it's important to realize I'm dependent on the spirit to show up in a person's life to to uh to cause the bush begin to burn.
• 43:34
  unknown: Wow.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I don't know if you're familiar with there's a pastor writer, uh he's Finnish, Patrick Hagman.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't think I know him.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: He he uh I was just looking at some of his work around suffering, and uh and he's Finnish, and so part of the joke that he makes is it's like well you Americans have a very different like connection with what meaning is supposed to you know what life's supposed to mean.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we're we really don't think about whether we're happy or not.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're about content.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it could be bet worse, it could be better, we're just sort of content and but he he talks uh a lot about what you just mentioned, this framework for suffering, which again, not to take us off of the shame piece, but if you connect all the dots in this conversation, which we're trying to do in 45 minutes, which is pretty hard.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but it it is like no look every time that you put on a mask, um, let shame and the satanic uh whispers win, you actually avoid the process that will, as you said at the very beginning, create structural transformation in you.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: It it's all connected.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like mask over here, shame over here, cauldron over here.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's like no no no no.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: When you when you uh when you bow to the whisper of the mask and this this sort of shame that says hide, you're better off.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's satanic.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Old framework, old narrative, you're right on, man.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: That that's that's that is not from God.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and the thing we think will keep us safest is the thing that actually keeps us from ever entering into a transformative process.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how you know it's from the evil one.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I like that last piece of what you said, especially.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: Remember, our masks are saying it differently, our defenses, our structural defenses, um, are protective in nature.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: Why we have defense mechanisms is to protect us.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: But they they also can rob us or limit us, or I would say arrest our development.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so you're right on in that we have to step to a place of vulnerability, unveiled faces to experience transformation.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: But we have to do it in the right places and also with people who create a safe environment.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: But also we need wise people who are good transformational guides at those crisis points.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: That becomes essential.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the privilege we have, you know, as we are called into other people's lives.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: We we get a chance to guide them in those moments.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Harvey, I one of my favorite prayers, you've probably heard it from um Father Thomas Keating and Mary Mordorowski, the the welcome prayer.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I feel like everything that you've just described gave me this theological underpinning of this prayer.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just says this welcome, welcome, welcome.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I welcome everything that comes to me today because I know it's for my healing.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: I welcome all thoughts, feelings, emotions, persons, situations, and conditions.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: I let go of my desire for power and control.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: I let go of my desire for affection, esteem, approval, and pleasure.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: I let go of my desire for survival and security.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: I let go of my desire to change any situation, condition, person, or myself.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I open myself to the love and presence of God and God's action with me.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: So powerful, isn't it?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's so beautiful, and just like the way you were describing how man, I want to hide from that, or I want to control that, or I, you know, and now just opening myself up to that portal, no matter what the crucible is, no matter what the invitation is, I'm gonna welcome it.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not for something.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but that's right, too, yes, you know, you know, so thank you.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's like, I mean, just like as you were talking, I'm like, oh, that's why that power that prayer is so powerful to me.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't, there's something here and I can't figure it out, but you just I feel like everything you've said has just given me such a a more robust theology on this.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's profound, and you're you're welcome.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: And man, when we step into a transformational portal, uh the the I mean the bottom line is we experience the father in a radically different way that we just can't get over.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it it fundamentally changes us.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, I think that sometimes is what we see in the glimpses in the prophets.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh, it's like Isaiah, you know, getting exposed to this thing that he doesn't even have language for.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he's trying to describe heaven and encounter, but he ultimately says, Oh man, I'm I'm an unclean man with unclean lips.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: Boom.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: He falls into a worship posture because he's been exposed to the glory of God.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, 1 Corinthians 3 18, you get exposed to the Father and it it irradiates you.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can't get over it.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that's that's the vibrancy we're talking about through transformational process, right?
• 48:56
  unknown: Gosh.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, here's the truth.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I could I think we could have a couple more episodes.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and maybe that's the invitation, and not to put you on the spot, but man, I what a gift.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: Harv, this was so insightful.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I would want to keep talking.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we're at time, unfortunately.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I I am totally open to that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you guys can tell this is my passion, you know, my life's purpose, understanding transformation, guiding people into it.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it's profound.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: And man, when you see the bur bush begin to burn in someone's life and you get to play a small part in that, there's nothing better than that.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it it always creates a a posture of worship, you know.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Lord, that I got a chance to play a small part in this, right?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, we say thank you.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks that we got to play a small part in this conversation, and thanks for sharing.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, man, for our listeners, uh, even for me.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for sharing.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, man.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: So that's gonna do it for today.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: Take it with you.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: Carry it into your week.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about it with someone, let it do something in you.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be back soon with more.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: So until then, keep rearranging, keep following.