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Why Owning Your Book Matters More Than Selling It with Paul Katz · If I'm Being Honest: Straight Talk About Book Publishing & Promotion

• 0:10
  Joel: Welcome to If I'm Being Honest, Straight Talk About Book Publishing Promotion.
• 0:14
  Joel: I'm your host, Joel Pitney, and I am really, really, really, really, really, really excited to have Paul Katz with me today.
• 0:22
  Joel: Welcome, Paul.
• 0:24
  Joel: Thank you.
• 0:25
  Paul: Happy to be here.
• 0:26
  Joel: So Paul is uh, I met Paul because we worked with him on his first book, uh Good Influence, and then I've also helped him with his latest book, which is called Commit Together, which just came out this last week.
• 0:38
  Joel: And he's the founder and CEO of Entertain Impact, which is a really cool company that helps pair uh nonprofits and and and good causes with uh celebrity influencers and leverage their influence for good.
• 0:52
  Joel: Um so uh anyway, Paul and I have now known each other for a few years, and I wanted to talk to him about um his own publishing journey.
• 1:02
  Joel: And I think specifically the thing that interests me most about Paul is that he's the kind of person who's fortunate enough to be in a position where he probably could have gotten a traditional publishing deal for both of his books.
• 1:14
  Joel: In fact, I think maybe even had some offers.
• 1:16
  Joel: Um and, you know, he's the kind of he's a he's an influencer, he's well established in his field, he has a big platform, all the goat those good things.
• 1:23
  Joel: And yet he chose the self-publishing path.
• 1:25
  Joel: And so I want to talk to him a little bit more about that.
• 1:27
  Joel: So welcome, Paul.
• 1:29
  Joel: Thank you.
• 1:30
  Paul: Happy to be here, happy to chat with uh with your folks.
• 1:33
  Joel: So um, yeah.
• 1:34
  Joel: Yeah, so maybe we could kind of start there.
• 1:36
  Joel: Maybe we could talk a little bit about, you know, what what was your decision-making process like, you know, with that first book, and I think probably with the second book also, um, that made you want to do this yourself as opposed to going with a traditional publisher.
• 1:53
  Paul: Yeah, like uh to give some context.
• 1:55
  Paul: So um Entertain Impact works, as you say, with nonprofits, yeah.
• 2:01
  Paul: And so the book was aimed at how do you work with popular culture for social change?
• 2:07
  Paul: And it's a you know, it's a niche book.
• 2:10
  Paul: It's gonna go to nonprofits and their marketing or the executive directors.
• 2:13
  Paul: Um, it has broader ramifications.
• 2:15
  Paul: It can be used for business as well, but mainly it was a nonprofit book.
• 2:18
  Paul: I have a wonderful agent, Carol Mann, who has represented Paul Oster and Thomas Sewell.
• 2:25
  Paul: I mean, she's a serious, serious agent.
• 2:27
  Paul: Um, and the first the first um time we went out to a few people and we got some offers, some serious publishers.
• 2:36
  Paul: But the problem was this, they wanted to put it out at hardback, at I think it was over 45 bucks.
• 2:43
  Paul: And then, you know, a year later they do the hard the paperback.
• 2:46
  Paul: And I wanted I wanted to get it into as many hands as possible because it was mission-driven.
• 2:52
  Paul: I I would be happy to give it away.
• 2:54
  Paul: I wasn't really doing it for the money, I was doing it to infuse the field, the nonprofit field, with this idea that you can use pop culture for social change and you don't have to be a Hollywood insider to do it.
• 3:05
  Paul: So for me, it was a strategic decision, and we decided not to go down the traditional route.
• 3:10
  Paul: And there are negatives about not going down the traditional route, um, which is obviously, you know, reviews, you're not going to get the New York Times to review you.
• 3:18
  Paul: However, the for me, the control element, and we get other reviews, so we're not so super worried about that, um, and the pricing that you can control.
• 3:29
  Paul: So it goes out.
• 3:30
  Paul: I mean, we gave it away for the first five days, the e-book.
• 3:32
  Paul: Right.
• 3:32
  Paul: As we're doing with the current book, Commit Together, which I think till October the 18th, I think it it's uh it's um it's available free.
• 3:40
  Paul: Um so for me it was really important to have the control.
• 3:43
  Paul: And, you know, as my background um originally is is is a music music in the music industry and I uh law and all that kind of stuff.
• 3:51
  Paul: We're part of a record company called Jive Records.
• 3:54
  Paul: Intellectual property is important.
• 3:55
  Paul: I like to own my intellectual property, whereas you don't with a uh um a a traditional publisher.
• 4:03
  Joel: Right.
• 4:03
  Paul: And I've worked with traditional publishers on lots of books in the past for other people, and we even uh had a publishing company in the UK many, many decades ago.
• 4:12
  Paul: So for me it's it's a question of control, pricing, and I'm not trying to make money out by selling so many books.
• 4:20
  Paul: Although I still think you could make more money by going the uh the self the self or independent publishing, as I call it, route.
• 4:27
  Joel: Right.
• 4:27
  Joel: Independent, yeah, that's that's a sexier term for sure.
• 4:30
  Joel: And it's and it's better, especially if you're doing it well, it's a it's more representative of what you're actually doing.
• 4:36
  Paul: Exactly.
• 4:37
  Paul: Exactly.
• 4:37
  Paul: And so when it came to commit together, we didn't even bother going out.
• 4:41
  Paul: We we had such a good time with launch my books, um, you know, which is your company who are incredibly professional and lovely.
• 4:48
  Paul: You know, lovely is good.
• 4:49
  Paul: You know, life can be too short for for friction.
• 4:52
  Paul: Um, just so helpful.
• 4:54
  Paul: We got it out on time.
• 4:55
  Paul: Um and so I didn't even bother.
• 4:57
  Paul: I I didn't even have to go through the process again.
• 4:59
  Paul: I knew precisely for this book, um, which again, and I I'll talk about that later, is part of a broader initiative uh to do with with um preserving democracy.
• 5:09
  Paul: I knew where I wanted to be.
• 5:10
  Paul: I had my I had my kind of my family, if you like.
• 5:12
  Paul: And so uh same PR person, Jane Westman, PR, I think you introduced me to Jane.
• 5:18
  Paul: Um and same same people who do marketing, and I have a staff here um through the nonprofit, um, not a big staff, but you know, we have folks.
• 5:28
  Paul: So so to me it felt very comfortable to go forward on the same basis.
• 5:32
  Joel: That's awesome.
• 5:33
  Joel: Well, one I just want to make one quick connection to, you know, I think a lot of people listening to the show, you know, um, especially in the nonfiction side of things, you part of part of your calculus was that you didn't have a commercial motive behind this book, right?
• 5:48
  Joel: You weren't trying to make money off of the sales of the book.
• 5:52
  Joel: And um, because it was a mission-driven book.
• 5:55
  Joel: And I think it's important, you know, we we talked about Sayde and I talk about this a lot on the podcast, is even if you have a commercial motive behind the sale of your book, right?
• 6:07
  Joel: Um you probably shouldn't apply that commercial motive to the book itself.
• 6:13
  Joel: Does that make sense?
• 6:14
  Joel: So um you're not it's so hard to turn a profit on through royalties, even if you're independently publishing, you get a lot the lion's share of the royalties.
• 6:25
  Joel: It's so hard to turn a profit that the authors who succeed, especially in the nonfiction side, are using that book almost as a lead magnet or a lost leader or a a funnel to kind of move people up.
• 6:39
  Joel: They have a they have an interest that's beyond just the profit and loss on that specific book itself.
• 6:46
  Paul: Yeah, I mean, I I do think if it is a success, you're gonna make more money as a as a as an independent publisher.
• 6:52
  Paul: However, I come out of the music business as I mentioned before, and I've worked with some very, very big artists, um, you know, the Britney Spears of the of the world and then single lots of lots of huge artists.
• 7:02
  Paul: Um and that's rare.
• 7:05
  Paul: If you look at it, if you look at if you took a pyramid, that's really right, right, right at the top.
• 7:09
  Paul: Um so I think most books don't sell uh uh was it 5,000 copies in their lifetime.
• 7:15
  Paul: Um I don't necess something like that.
• 7:17
  Paul: But I so I don't think it's I don't think you should necessarily not think you're gonna be a big success, but I wouldn't economically plan on that.
• 7:27
  Paul: Right.
• 7:28
  Paul: Uh would would be would be would be my suggestion.
• 7:30
  Paul: Yeah, no, I agree, I agree with you on that.
• 7:32
  Paul: Yeah.
• 7:32
  Paul: Yeah.
• 7:33
  Joel: Well, and that and it's interesting, you brought up a another perk as you were as you were just starting to tell your story, another perk of self-pub or independent publishing, rather, uh, that I don't often think about is uh control over the price point.
• 7:48
  Joel: And if you're a publisher, obviously they're trying to maximize their profit on the book itself because they don't they're not monetizing, they're not using that book as a way to advance your career, right?
• 8:00
  Joel: They they're in it for the dollars and cents of that book itself, right?
• 8:03
  Joel: And the best way for them to do that is to do a hardcover because it costs $30.
• 8:08
  Paul: They're gonna make far more profit.
• 8:09
  Paul: I and I understand that.
• 8:11
  Paul: I come from business.
• 8:11
  Paul: So I have no problem with, you know, worked in the past with the random house house and their their imprints.
• 8:17
  Paul: Um and I have lots of friends who are literary agents, both in both in the UK, although I live in New York for many decades.
• 8:23
  Paul: Um, hey, no problem making money.
• 8:25
  Paul: That's that's okay.
• 8:26
  Paul: And a lot of those books won't make money, so you need the Dan Browns of the world, um, which is represented by a friend, um, who does a lot of other books that are not gonna be as successful based upon the overall fact that they're that they can make profit from it.
• 8:40
  Paul: Um so yeah, I mean it's true.
• 8:45
  Paul: Uh, you know, hardcover first is is is gonna make more money.
• 8:49
  Paul: Yeah.
• 8:49
  Paul: Basically.
• 8:50
  Paul: Um sorry, go ahead, Paul.
• 8:53
  Paul: I was gonna say the other thing, of course, is there's a set there's not just the commercial market, there's the educational market.
• 8:59
  Paul: There's colleges and high schools and libraries so commit together, which is which is subtitled a practical guide to democracy, is basically a civic participation book.
• 9:08
  Paul: Looks at voting and the in education and economic justice in a non-partisan way.
• 9:14
  Paul: I'd love it to be in in libraries and colleges, and we will look to look to do that.
• 9:19
  Paul: Um and so so for me, I'm looking at not just the primary commercial market.
• 9:25
  Paul: Um, I'm not looking just at the kind of the giveaway to build momentum, which is really a big part of what I'm thinking here.
• 9:32
  Paul: Um, but uh but also I'm looking at can this be a help to young people uh and people who you know visit libraries, uh, etc., um, oh over the next few years.
• 9:42
  Paul: It's not a sh not a short-term thing.
• 9:44
  Paul: We'll update it, but it's not a short-term thing.
• 9:46
  Joel: I love it.
• 9:47
  Joel: And by the way, it's beautiful.
• 9:48
  Joel: I mean, the the illustrator that that Paul used for the book, it it you know, it's a very graphic, heavy book.
• 9:55
  Joel: It's supposed to be easy to digest and and read.
• 9:58
  Joel: We'll talk more about the content of the book, but everybody should go check it out.
• 10:02
  Joel: It's really cool.
• 10:02
  Joel: If you're interested at all, and uh it's nonpartisan.
• 10:05
  Joel: If you're interested in all about the state of democracy and how you can contribute to it no matter where you are in the political spectrum, it's awesome.
• 10:11
  Paul: So thank you.
• 10:12
  Paul: And Fran is the is the is the uh the graphic artist.
• 10:15
  Paul: And she she also did the animated um trailer, which you can find on on my author website, which is Paul Mcadz.com.
• 10:23
  Paul: It's really cool.
• 10:24
  Paul: She did that.
• 10:24
  Joel: That's awesome.
• 10:25
  Joel: We'll share links to all that, by the way.
• 10:27
  Joel: Thank you.
• 10:28
  Joel: Um so before we dive into the content of the book, I want to ask you a couple more tactical questions.
• 10:33
  Joel: Um and I think one one thing that I think would be interesting to learn, given that this is your second rodeo, right?
• 10:39
  Joel: Um, what did you learn in the first rodeo about what it takes to make an independently published book succeed that you are now building into the second one?
• 10:51
  Paul: So it's so it's interesting.
• 10:53
  Paul: Well, I guess this your depends on your definition of success.
• 10:56
  Paul: Yep.
• 10:56
  Paul: So there can be def lots of different definitions.
• 10:59
  Paul: Um the first thing that I learned, and I think this comes out of the music and film stuff that I've done in the past, but really applies to a book, is just because you write the book doesn't mean you're finished.
• 11:10
  Paul: You're only 50% of the way there.
• 11:12
  Paul: The other 50% is getting it out into the world and getting people to read and respond to it.
• 11:20
  Paul: I think that's really important.
• 11:21
  Paul: So to me, I think the the second thing I would say, it's not the week it comes out.
• 11:28
  Paul: It's you know, it's a ride.
• 11:30
  Paul: You know, that you go down the road for for many months, depending on what what the book is and what the content is.
• 11:36
  Paul: So this book, um, the Commit Together book is aimed at civic participation.
• 11:40
  Paul: So I'm not looking at the midterms or even the 2028 presidential election.
• 11:44
  Paul: I'm looking at infusing information and getting regular folk, the moderates in the middle, to participate.
• 11:51
  Paul: So I think that's the second thing.
• 11:54
  Paul: Third thing is do not think people are coming to you because they ain't.
• 11:58
  Paul: You have to be proactive, you have to be persistent.
• 12:01
  Paul: I think you have to have a really good team of people that you can feel comfortable and you trust.
• 12:06
  Paul: I'm fortunate, as I mentioned at the earlier part of this podcast, I've got great people around me.
• 12:10
  Paul: There's a cost, you have to also look what your budget is.
• 12:14
  Paul: Um, if you know, and and depending on what that is, because there is definitely a cost involved, you that'll that'll um guide you as to who who you can work with and hire and all that kind of thing.
• 12:26
  Joel: Um but it's worth it as far as far as I'm concerned.
• 12:30
  Joel: Um well, I know one thing you did, yeah, Paul, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, but um you entered your book in a lot of compet uh oh into for a lot of awards.
• 12:41
  Joel: Yeah.
• 12:42
  Joel: And it won a lot of awards?
• 12:44
  Joel: Yeah, surprising.
• 12:45
  Joel: And that again, this is the first book, good influence.
• 12:48
  Joel: The second book hopefully will win more awards.
• 12:51
  Joel: But um what was the role of that, do you think, in the book process?
• 12:55
  Joel: Like what's the value did did you get what did you get out of it besides just feeling good about yourself?
• 13:00
  Paul: Well, you know, it's definitely it's nice.
• 13:03
  Paul: I'm not gonna d deny that, but it but you know, I've I've been nominated for grammars and things.
• 13:08
  Paul: I'm kind of past that stage.
• 13:09
  Paul: I thought what it would do and what it has done has introduced it to a broader audience and not necessarily the audience that I was going for, the nonprofit audience, which I think you have to be very specific about your audience.
• 13:22
  Paul: You have to really know who you're going for.
• 13:24
  Paul: Um, the companies that I had before Entertain Impact, or that we talked about before.
• 13:30
  Paul: When we're looking at, say, getting getting um influences or pop culture to a particular audience, there's a huge difference between uh somebody from Mexican heritage who lives in LA and someone from Cuban who lives in Miami.
• 13:44
  Paul: Different people, different influences.
• 13:46
  Paul: And so I think you have to really identify your audience.
• 13:49
  Paul: However, it's nice to be reviewed by, say, Kirkus or um indie reader, um, and nice to have an award and get nominated, and then you know, if you're lucky enough to win, um, it gets you to a broader audience.
• 14:05
  Paul: So I think it's I think it's mainly that.
• 14:07
  Paul: It just spreads out the word.
• 14:09
  Paul: Yeah, but I want to come back if I could to success.
• 14:12
  Paul: Go for it.
• 14:12
  Paul: So for me, success, especially the second book, is am I driving people to commit together.org, which is the website, you go on, you put in your political views, you take an issue, and we give you three um organizations that'll fit your values.
• 14:26
  Paul: You know, we'll disagree on policy, but we think democracy is a good thing.
• 14:29
  Paul: So that to me is success here.
• 14:31
  Paul: I mean, obviously you can look at are people coming to the website, are people buying the book, all that all that kind of stuff.
• 14:38
  Paul: But for a somebody who's who's say building um Charles Levin has has these wonderful books, we know Charles.
• 14:44
  Paul: Um for him, it might be, you know, I'm building a series and I want people to buy the books and I want people to enjoy the books.
• 14:51
  Paul: It it it it it really depends on your on your rationale for doing it in the first place.
• 14:55
  Paul: I, on the other hand, just just to give a heads up, although it's I think it's it's it's six, seven months away at least, uh, I'm writing a novel next, which I actually started before this one, and then took took some of the research from there and put it into the nonfiction because the fiction world became nonfiction in in uh in a lot of respects.
• 15:14
  Paul: Um that one I'm just gonna go and have fun with it and throw it out there and um you know, promote it, of course.
• 15:21
  Paul: Uh I will be coming back to launch my books to do that in a in about six, seven, eight, nine months time.
• 15:27
  Paul: Um but that's a commercial head.
• 15:29
  Paul: That's not that's not a mission-driven like the other, like the other.
• 15:33
  Paul: Yeah.
• 15:35
  Joel: That'll be interesting, and we'll have to, you know, in the future, once we've gotten through all those books, we'll have to have a conversation comparing the two pathways.
• 15:43
  Joel: It'd be interesting.
• 15:44
  Paul: That would be interesting, yeah.
• 15:46
  Paul: Absolutely.
• 15:46
  Paul: Absolutely.
• 15:48
  Joel: So um let's see here.
• 15:50
  Joel: I think a lot of people um a lot of people get intimidated by the marketing piece, right?
• 15:57
  Joel: You said 50% is writing it, 50% is getting the the book out there.
• 16:02
  Joel: What have you found in that regard that have been successful for you?
• 16:06
  Joel: And again, I know I know we're defining success.
• 16:09
  Joel: Everybody's has to define their own version of success.
• 16:11
  Joel: But given your own criteria set, what are some of the marketing tactics that you that really, really move the needle for you?
• 16:20
  Paul: Well, I think there's the kind of the the generic stuff.
• 16:22
  Paul: You can buy ads on Google or Facebook or Instagram and do that.
• 16:26
  Paul: We haven't done much of that.
• 16:27
  Paul: The thing that I would say the primary mover for me initially to build up critical mass has been my network of of friends and c colleagues.
• 16:37
  Paul: Because if you can engage them, and I've been very fortunate that that's happened, and the word of mouth spreads, that's the best you can best you can get.
• 16:46
  Paul: So if you have a f if you have a network, it doesn't have to be necessarily huge, but if you have one person who tells two or three other people, that that's that's very positive, I think.
• 16:56
  Paul: And then that that builds and builds.
• 16:58
  Paul: Social media, which I haven't done much of, but I do, um, has been okay, I think.
• 17:04
  Paul: Um that's one thing I would look at.
• 17:06
  Paul: I think traditional publishers look at social media a lot.
• 17:09
  Paul: It's like not just did you write a great book, but you know, how many followers do you have?
• 17:14
  Paul: And anyone can buy followers, but it's it's inappropriate in my view, because you know it's just numbers.
• 17:21
  Paul: Um I don't think you want to fool anyone.
• 17:23
  Joel: I think you have to be genuine with well, they won't be engaged followers, which there was a time when you could buy followers and impress people, but now everyone's wise to that now.
• 17:32
  Joel: People know that you'd be real engaged.
• 17:35
  Paul: Yeah, in my first book, I talk about it.
• 17:36
  Paul: You know, David Beckham has millions and millions of followers.
• 17:40
  Paul: I work with Mia Farrow and Desmond Tutu and Siggy Marley and many others on the polio campaign.
• 17:46
  Paul: They have many, many less, but boy, are they much more active.
• 17:50
  Paul: So I'm not saying either is better than the other, but they're just different.
• 17:53
  Paul: So, so but I think your personal network, business associates, whatever is good.
• 17:58
  Paul: If you're if you're connected with an organization through your through your faith, maybe your church, or through a nonprofit that you volunteer with, what membership organizations, getting them involved and saying, you know, we've got this book coming out, we'd love to do a talk, for example, could be could be fantastic.
• 18:16
  Paul: Podcasts obviously are very helpful these days.
• 18:19
  Paul: A lot of people are are listening to podcasts.
• 18:21
  Paul: So you know, it's just I I think there's not one particular fix.
• 18:25
  Paul: But if I was gonna say where do you start, I I think really get your friends, family, and your close, close relationships involved.
• 18:32
  Joel: I did this is such an important point, and any listener of the show will recognize the fact that um Sayde and I really believe in this point.
• 18:40
  Joel: And I have noticed over the years working with a lot of different authors that uh I have seen authors with massive portfolios with really impressive people like you.
• 18:50
  Joel: And I've worked with authors who, when I first said, hey, you need to mobilize your network for this, said what network?
• 18:57
  Joel: I have friends and coworkers, but no one knows who I am, right?
• 19:02
  Joel: I've seen that whole spectrum of people, and I have noticed that the ones who are able to embrace their network in the way you're talking about, regardless of its size, are the ones who succeed.
• 19:16
  Joel: And I've seen people with massive networks who didn't want to do that, who were hoping that they could just get some national media and somehow they wouldn't have to mobilize the people they know.
• 19:27
  Joel: And it backfires every time.
• 19:30
  Paul: Many, many years there was there was um an uh a producer, Mutt Lang, who's a very, very well-known record producer, and he'd produce Brian Adams amongst many, many others.
• 19:40
  Paul: Lovely man, quiet man.
• 19:41
  Paul: And Brian Adams said, I do every radio station, doesn't matter how small it is, I work it.
• 19:48
  Paul: And you know what?
• 19:49
  Paul: You've got to do everything that you can because you never know who's gonna hear that.
• 19:53
  Paul: You'd never know who's gonna not necessarily buy the book, but give you another opportunity.
• 19:57
  Paul: You've got to, you know, it's in the detail.
• 20:00
  unknown: Yeah.
• 20:00
  Paul: It's in the detail.
• 20:01
  Paul: You have to go out and you have to go work and you have to look at these things.
• 20:04
  Paul: So getting getting a national paper or traditional media involved is fantastic.
• 20:11
  Paul: No one's suggesting it's not.
• 20:12
  Paul: But you know, you need more than one impression, and you don't know who's gonna read that paper.
• 20:17
  Paul: You know, there's a difference between CNN and Fox politically.
• 20:20
  Paul: Right.
• 20:20
  Paul: You know, I look at both, and and things in between and uh uh you know, up and down.
• 20:25
  Paul: So for so for me, I I think the the network is is really is really a big thing.
• 20:30
  Paul: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Joel: That's awesome.
• 20:31
  Joel: I I heard something recently from Tim Ferris, who, you know, four-hour work week.
• 20:35
  Joel: And a lot of I think he's in some ways he's one of the godfathers of influencer culture, you know.
• 20:40
  Joel: He's just yeah, and he was it was some silly little social media ad that popped up with him talking.
• 20:47
  Joel: And he, I'm sure he was promoting something, but he was talking about how every venture he's ever started was focused on he wanted to find a thousand people that were really, really, really focused on what he was interested in, regardless if it was a book or a business or whatever.
• 21:03
  Joel: And when I heard that, I thought that was interesting because a thousand, it's a lot, but it feels attainable in a way.
• 21:11
  Joel: Yeah.
• 21:11
  Joel: Feels like anyone could probably get to that point if they really worked at it.
• 21:16
  Paul: You'd be surprised.
• 21:16
  Paul: You know, there's the six degrees of separation, the Kevin Bacon thing.
• 21:19
  Paul: And Kevin Bacon I know, and in fact, he blurbed for my first book, and I worked at sixdegrees.org, which is a wonderful nonprofit organization.
• 21:27
  Paul: It's true though.
• 21:28
  Paul: You'd be amazed how many people you that you know.
• 21:31
  Paul: Even Facebook, because I did some research on this, says that we're we're 5.9 people away from a billion.
• 21:39
  Paul: It's amazing.
• 21:40
  Paul: It's amazing.
• 21:41
  Paul: Now they're not all gonna help.
• 21:42
  Paul: That's that's true.
• 21:43
  Paul: I mean, the other the other thing that um, you know, if you have someone who's got visibility that's that's got, you know, public persona, you don't have to know them, but if it's something that really connects with them, ask them.
• 21:57
  Paul: You know, ask them to go promote it on social media or Or be a blurb for your book or or or whatever.
• 22:02
  Paul: The other thing that I didn't do, but people tell me is good is this idea of kind of um is it called beta readers where people read beta before it comes beta.
• 22:11
  Paul: My English accent there, right?
• 22:13
  Paul: Beta readers.
• 22:14
  Paul: Um and and you know, that also helps build an audience and gets you reviews on Amazon and all that kind of thing.
• 22:19
  Paul: So I'm sure there's many things that you know it's your it's your world.
• 22:23
  Joel: But well, no, it's it's all it's our world.
• 22:25
  Joel: I mean, that's what one of the things I love working with you on is you know, you have so much experience with the marketing side and are so creative that, you know.
• 22:32
  Joel: Um one thing that when you were speaking reminded me, we had an author who uh she was based in Portland, Oregon, right up the road from where I'm I'm at in Bend, and she wrote a grief memoir.
• 22:45
  Joel: And no one knew who she was at all.
• 22:48
  Joel: She had no following whatsoever.
• 22:51
  Joel: And, you know, we when we got to the point where it was time to start building marketing plan, um, one thing we did was we just put we put a bunch of thought leaders up, uh, you know, that she wanted to connect with that she felt like she loved and she thought she could reach out to.
• 23:07
  Joel: And this included small names and it also included big names.
• 23:10
  Joel: And so one of her personal heroes was Cheryl Strait, who wrote Wild.
• 23:14
  Joel: I I worked on the movie.
• 23:16
  Joel: Yeah.
• 23:16
  Joel: There you go.
• 23:17
  Joel: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:17
  Joel: And this was a fantastic movie.
• 23:19
  Joel: Yeah.
• 23:19
  Joel: And I remember when we first had that conversation about her, she she was like, Well, she would never pay attention to me.
• 23:27
  Joel: She would never but she was from Portland.
• 23:30
  Joel: And so she wrote her this really heartfelt letter describing her story, talking about how she had this connection to her.
• 23:36
  Joel: We were able to get it to her.
• 23:37
  Joel: We found her email address somehow.
• 23:39
  Joel: And she she sent her a copy of the book and she blurbed it.
• 23:44
  Paul: I I think people would be amazed um how kind people are and generous and want to help, especially, I mean, you know, the Pacific Trail and that walk was just incredible.
• 23:54
  Paul: Um and if you if you find the right people and they're passionate about what you're writing, I think you will get you will get much more involvement than you think.
• 24:05
  Paul: I've taken some very famous folks, I work in in Haiti, with a beautiful hospital called St.
• 24:10
  Paul: Damian's.
• 24:11
  Paul: I've taken people there who are very, very well known because it was about kids and maternal health.
• 24:17
  unknown: Wow.
• 24:17
  Paul: You know, so that's the thing.
• 24:19
  Paul: And and um, of course, with Bend and Grief at the moment, I'm so sorry with what happened, I think it was it yesterday.
• 24:25
  Joel: That's true, yeah.
• 24:26
  Joel: That was yeah, we had a we had a school shooting at an elementary school.
• 24:31
  Paul: I worked, I worked with um on one campaign that the Brady Center for the Prevention of Gun Violence.
• 24:36
  Paul: Jim Brady was Reagan's press secretary who got shot when they tried to assassinate Reagan.
• 24:40
  Paul: And so we've I've done a lot of campaigns on trying to uh to make gun guns, not to not to to to remove them, but to make them safer.
• 24:49
  Paul: Um yeah.
• 24:51
  Paul: So our thoughts are with the people from from Bend and that school at the moment.
• 24:54
  Paul: Yeah.
• 24:55
  Paul: Yeah.
• 24:56
  Joel: No, so you never know.
• 24:57
  Joel: I mean, I this is I always feel like a and again, you know, this is fiction and nonfiction, but especially on the nonfiction side, usually that there's a there's a mission behind these books.
• 25:08
  Joel: And if there is, that means there's a lot of other people who share that mission.
• 25:12
  Joel: And if you if you're if you're courageous enough to just unapologetically lead with that.
• 25:18
  Joel: Yeah, I mean it resonates.
• 25:20
  Paul: Yeah, if it's important with you, it's genuine, and you're just trying to do it to do it, if you know what I mean, just to for your for your financial advantage.
• 25:28
  Paul: But there's something that you're really passionate about.
• 25:30
  Paul: They can you know, I've done campaigns, for example, on homelessness.
• 25:33
  Paul: Kelly Clarkson was homeless, you know, the singer.
• 25:35
  Paul: Yeah.
• 25:36
  Paul: It resonates with.
• 25:37
  Paul: If I went to her on something to do with um, I don't know, cancer, and uh it may not r resonate, and of course important, but may not resonate in the in the same way.
• 25:46
  Paul: So yeah, reach out.
• 25:48
  Paul: I mean, they the worst that can happen is you don't hear.
• 25:50
  Paul: You know, or they say no, which is fine, that's everyone's prerogative.
• 25:54
  Paul: Um, but you'd be surprised how many yeses you're gonna get.
• 25:58
  Paul: And if your book is genuinely helpful to people, I think people want to promote it.
• 26:02
  Paul: Yep.
• 26:03
  Paul: And people can feel it.
• 26:04
  Paul: People can feel your commitment.
• 26:07
  Paul: 100%.
• 26:08
  Paul: With music, you know, uh mentioned the records before.
• 26:11
  Paul: People will come to me artists and say, you know, I'm thinking of doing this, and it sounds a little bit like, you know, XYZ.
• 26:17
  Paul: And I would go, no, no, no, no, no.
• 26:19
  Paul: Don't try and be a follower.
• 26:20
  Paul: Be genuine.
• 26:21
  Paul: It's your work, it's your creativity, it's your music.
• 26:24
  Paul: And I think the same applies with books, you know?
• 26:26
  Paul: Gotta be gotta be real, you know.
• 26:28
  Paul: That's the kind of the thing.
• 26:30
  Joel: That's beautiful, Paul.
• 26:31
  Joel: Yeah.
• 26:32
  Joel: Um, so let's let's talk about your your new book.
• 26:36
  Joel: Sure.
• 26:37
  Joel: Thank you.
• 26:37
  Joel: What's it about?
• 26:38
  Joel: Why'd you write it?
• 26:39
  Joel: Well, I know you've alluded to that already.
• 26:43
  Paul: Yeah.
• 26:43
  Paul: I mean, I wrote it, actually, it started off as this novel.
• 26:45
  Paul: I did a lot of research on authoritarianism.
• 26:48
  Paul: And then I felt in the since 2016 that we have gone not we're not an authoritarian company in the US, and I and I and I have a uh a passport.
• 26:56
  Paul: I'm a US citizen.
• 26:58
  Paul: Um, I've lived here for 40 years.
• 26:59
  Paul: But I just felt there was a drift towards authoritarianism in terms of executive powers and all these, you know, unitary president, the lack of checks and balances, the way the courts were working.
• 27:10
  Paul: Um and so, and just the information and what the access to information and bullying, and I hate bullies.
• 27:20
  Paul: And so I thought, well, the far left and the far right are very well organized, neither of which really appeals to me.
• 27:27
  Paul: But the moderates, the mid- the mid- the middle of Dems, moderate Dems and moderate Republicans and independent voters, and there's 140 million of those combined.
• 27:36
  Paul: We need to do something, and we're feeling overwhelmed.
• 27:39
  Paul: And so um let's give them a really clear way of finding an organization that will fit them.
• 27:47
  Paul: It doesn't have to agree on policy, but we agree democracy is a cool thing for us and our kids, and we want to keep it.
• 27:52
  Paul: So we started this through a nonprofit I started about 10 years ago.
• 27:55
  Paul: We do a lot of voting rights in the South, in Georgia, Arizona, North Carolina, through a no votes barred campaign.
• 28:00
  Paul: So we started this, this, this, this, uh, this initiative, which is up, commit together.org is the website, and we're just rolling it out now.
• 28:09
  Paul: And the book is one tool and the app isn't is a is another tool.
• 28:12
  Paul: Um, and so the idea is to get moderates to to really say, you know, we we like fair elections.
• 28:19
  Paul: We want to trust the process.
• 28:21
  Paul: Um and whatever your passion is, you know, it might be education, it might be voting, it might be economic justice.
• 28:28
  Paul: I mean, there's a um a wonderful organization called Braver Angels Network that facilitates conversations between people of different opposing views.
• 28:36
  Paul: And we have a we have a category called Engaging Across Differences.
• 28:39
  Paul: You know, go find your thing, go do it.
• 28:41
  Paul: And and you know, there's a there's a Chinese philosopher called Lao Tzu, um, and he has this phrase, which is the journey of a thousand miles starts with one, you know, one step.
• 28:51
  Paul: And so I think to myself, commit together can be your GPS for the you know, for part of that journey going forward.
• 28:58
  Paul: But you've got to start somewhere, whether you've got five minutes or or or you know, five weeks, just do something.
• 29:03
  Paul: You don't have to be full-time, you don't have to be an activist.
• 29:06
  Paul: And and and it, you know, we've all got kids, we've got commitments.
• 29:09
  Paul: No one's saying, you know, do this full on, but you know, get involved.
• 29:14
  Joel: Well, yeah, and one thing I want to emphasize, because I I was fortunate, I got I got to read some of the earlier drafts and you know, kind of help give Paul some feedback.
• 29:22
  Joel: And I remember at the time I was very skeptical about um about his nonpartisan motives behind the book.
• 29:29
  Joel: I thought he was using it, you know, sort of non-partisanship.
• 29:33
  Joel: It's partisanship in in Wolf's clothing, but it's not.
• 29:36
  Joel: I mean, I I think that's one thing I really love about the book.
• 29:39
  Joel: And then I think even I think you continued to even work that angle and really made it a truly nonpartisan handbook.
• 29:46
  Joel: You know, for anyone, you have to care about democracy.
• 29:48
  Joel: That it's you have to That's the key.
• 29:50
  Joel: That's the key.
• 29:50
  Joel: As long as you care about democracy, and and as we all know, like you said, 140 million Americans sort of would be in the middle.
• 29:57
  Paul: Voters, not just Americans, American voters.
• 29:59
  Joel: American voters, right.
• 30:01
  Paul: So it I mean, I did it, I did a panel in s for Democracy Week in Geneva, Switzerland.
• 30:06
  Paul: I mean, it was on Zoom, and I wanted someone I my my my own personal politics, center left.
• 30:11
  Paul: Not far left by any means, but center just left of center on most things.
• 30:14
  Paul: Some I'm center right.
• 30:16
  Paul: We're you know, we're complex characters, no one's saying we have to be one thing or the other.
• 30:19
  Paul: But we did this panel.
• 30:20
  Paul: I wanted someone from the center right on the panel and work with this wonderful person, uh Rena Shah, who I'd met before, who I sought out.
• 30:29
  Paul: I think it's good to have diversity of views, you know.
• 30:31
  Paul: But the organizations that you'll get from the book, which starts off talking about an audit of America, you know, how does that affect us from a governmental viewpoint?
• 30:40
  Paul: And then how does that permeate into our everyday lives?
• 30:42
  Paul: Um so so basically that the idea that we can disagree on policy, but we can agree on democracy.
• 30:52
  Paul: And you'll find, for example, if uh I'll give you an example.
• 30:56
  Paul: In uh freedom of speech and information, maybe you're maybe you're left of center, and ACLU is your organization, um, but maybe you're slightly right of center, but they're both all nonpartisan, so I'm kind of over kind of maybe make making this a bit black and white.
• 31:13
  Paul: But fire.org is a fantastic organization or faith uh to vote.
• 31:19
  Paul: Fi.org, what is it?
• 31:20
  Paul: How do you spell that?
• 31:21
  Paul: F-I-R-E.org instead of fire.org for it.
• 31:25
  Paul: Yeah.
• 31:25
  Paul: I mean, they they they they're just just an excellent, excellent organization.
• 31:30
  Paul: So you'll find two or three organizations on the website in the book that'll tell you who they are, what their budgets are, how they operate, why they're democratic, because we have this whole um methodology, and in the and and then you can just decide if you want to work with them or not, and we'll help introduce you.
• 31:47
  Paul: In the book, we have this path framework, which is basically what's the problem, what's the answer, take action, have impact.
• 31:55
  Paul: Because I have, you know, the focus of a NAT.
• 31:57
  Paul: So for me, it really simple go, you know, is it it it helps.
• 32:03
  Joel: And so for the it's kind of written for a generation of graphic novel consumers.
• 32:08
  Joel: It's not a graphic novel, but it, you know, it's it's it's definitely written for short intention space.
• 32:14
  Paul: Yeah, and you can dip in and dip out.
• 32:15
  Paul: It's not meant to be, you know, I have some, you know, I've read a lot, like you say, the Tim Snyders of the world, who who do fantastic work, but it's not an academic book.
• 32:24
  Paul: It's meant to be a practical how-to a simple, simple way to get involved without spending a lot of time.
• 32:30
  Paul: But the quality of the organizations is very high.
• 32:33
  Paul: One out of 25 probably makes it in onto the website.
• 32:37
  Paul: We have resources and big data science.
• 32:39
  Paul: I mean, we have the whole thing.
• 32:41
  Paul: Yeah.
• 32:41
  Paul: But so the the independent nature of it, coming back to the book and the self-publishing or independent publishing, to me that's key because you can't I can't drive the whole thing unless I'm in I I'm kind of on in control of of the process.
• 32:56
  Paul: So that's really a key, key thing for me.
• 32:59
  Joel: I love it.
• 33:00
  Paul: Yeah.
• 33:01
  Joel: So, Paul, where can where can people learn more?
• 33:05
  Paul: Well, you can't do that website.
• 33:06
  Paul: Paul Mkatz.com is my author website, and commit.
• 33:09
  Joel: Paul M Katz is K-A-T-Z, by the way.
• 33:12
  Joel: Thank you.
• 33:13
  Paul: Um, and uh commit together.org is the website for the for the for the to take action and to find out something that's good for you.
• 33:22
  Joel: Awesome.
• 33:22
  Joel: And we'll include links to that in the show notes.
• 33:24
  Joel: So um Paul, thank you.
• 33:27
  Joel: This has been awesome.
• 33:28
  Joel: You're such a great guy and so committed to so many amazing things.
• 33:32
  Joel: So it was it was great to have you on the on the show.
• 33:35
  Paul: Thank you so much.
• 33:36
  Paul: And I love your podcast, and I listened to it the whole time.
• 33:38
  Paul: So and I learned.
• 33:39
  Paul: You know, the other thing is just to close, is by talking to people, younger people, older people, different different perspectives.
• 33:45
  Paul: I'm always learning, you know, and so so this is great.
• 33:48
  Paul: So thank you so much for the podcast.