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All Mom Does Podcast with Julie Lyles Carr - The Happiness Crisis with Dr. Jonathan Eckert · CLA+

0:01
Speaker 1: Purposely, your life, God's purpose.
0:05
Speaker 2: More podcasts at Purposely.com.
0:10
Speaker 1: Hey there, a quick note before we jump into today's episode.
0:13
Speaker 1: You might want to put some headphones on just because
0:15
Speaker 1: we do talk about some statistics and some things with
0:19
Speaker 1: young adults and young kids today that, you know, could
0:22
Speaker 1: be a little bit of a trigger. So a little
0:23
Speaker 1: trigger warning, slide on those headphones and I can't wait
0:26
Speaker 1: for you to hear this one.
0:27
Speaker 2: The sooner you realize that you're not always, you know,
0:31
Speaker 2: I had a seventh grader tell me, I know life
0:32
Speaker 2: isn't fair. I just wish it was unfair in my favor.
0:36
Speaker 1: That is some, that's some deep honesty right there, John.
0:39
Speaker 2: That's not reality. So let's lean into what truth is.
0:44
Speaker 1: Hey friend, you are listening to the all mom does podcast.
0:46
Speaker 1: We're part of the purposely podcast network. The whole reason
0:49
Speaker 1: we're here is to help equip you for the life
0:51
Speaker 1: that you are living, the family you're raising, the marriage
0:54
Speaker 1: you're nurturing, the career you're chasing and and of course,
0:56
Speaker 1: your spiritual walk with God. And there is a topic
1:00
Speaker 1: that just keeps coming up, at least in my circles,
1:03
Speaker 1: and I bet in yours too. And that is this correlation,
1:08
Speaker 1: this relationship between how much we as parents want our
1:11
Speaker 1: kids to be happy, but also are we really preparing
1:16
Speaker 1: them for how life works? And so I am so
1:20
Speaker 1: delighted to have somebody with us today, He's an expert.
1:24
Speaker 1: He's going to talk us through all the things. He's
1:26
Speaker 1: a professor at Baylor. John Eckert, thank you so much
1:29
Speaker 1: for being with me today.
1:31
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
1:33
Speaker 1: You know, you have identified something that we're calling the
1:36
Speaker 1: happiness crisis. Now, those are two words we don't often
1:40
Speaker 1: hear put together. So unpack for me what the happiness
1:44
Speaker 1: crisis is. Yes.
1:47
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's appropriate. We're talking about this in
1:49
Speaker 2: the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, where put
1:53
Speaker 2: into our founding documents, we have the pursuit of happiness,
1:56
Speaker 2: which feels like just a natural good that we all
1:59
Speaker 2: go for. I think the problem has become with how
2:03
Speaker 2: we are defining happiness. So I think for our kids,
2:06
Speaker 2: a lot of times it's circumstantial. So if something exceeds
2:09
Speaker 2: my expectations, I'm happy. If it doesn't meet them, I'm
2:12
Speaker 2: not happy. It's self-focused. It's their own happiness. And it's
2:17
Speaker 2: fleeting because if it's circumstantial and things don't meet our expectation,
2:22
Speaker 2: it comes and goes. And if we struggle, we can't
2:26
Speaker 2: be happy. So that's a real problem for educators, parents, coaches,
2:31
Speaker 2: because so much of learning is productive struggle. And so
2:35
Speaker 2: if kids think if I'm struggling, I can't be well,
2:37
Speaker 2: much less happy, we've got a problem. And the last
2:40
Speaker 2: thing I'll say about that is they're determining their happiness
2:43
Speaker 2: based on comparison. And when they get to middle school
2:46
Speaker 2: and high school, that comparison is through these phones. And
2:50
Speaker 2: the problem is they're comparing themselves against curated, filtered, unreal
2:56
Speaker 2: lives that of course they don't measure up to. And
2:59
Speaker 2: just the very act of measuring their own happiness against
3:01
Speaker 2: their ideal or their perception of what someone else has
3:04
Speaker 2: is going to erode their happiness. And that's why I
3:07
Speaker 2: think we've hit crisis level with it.
3:09
Speaker 1: So what I hear you saying is we have a
3:11
Speaker 1: definition issue because we are defining happiness incorrectly. And then
3:15
Speaker 1: we are then calibrating what we think the happiness is
3:19
Speaker 1: based off of filters and literal filters and all kinds
3:23
Speaker 1: of other things that create a comparison culture that is
3:27
Speaker 1: forever going to sabotage the definition of happiness that we
3:30
Speaker 1: currently have. But, you know, John, I feel like there's
3:33
Speaker 1: so many parents. And, hey, I get it because I
3:36
Speaker 1: want my kids to be happy, too. I want my
3:38
Speaker 1: kids to have fulfilling lives. and happy lives, and I
3:41
Speaker 1: want them to have happy marriages and happy family life.
3:44
Speaker 1: And I hope they look back at the experience of
3:46
Speaker 1: being raised in our home as happy. How do I
3:50
Speaker 1: need to work on my own definition as a parent
3:54
Speaker 1: about what happiness is? Because sometimes I hear somebody come
3:57
Speaker 1: along and they just give an elbow to the word
4:00
Speaker 1: happiness completely. And they're like, well, you know, within a
4:03
Speaker 1: faith perspective, God doesn't want you happy, he wants you holy.
4:05
Speaker 1: And yet when I go in and look in my concordance,
4:08
Speaker 1: Happy shows up all over the Bible. So I'm not
4:10
Speaker 1: quite sure that happy is antithetical biblically. And yet sometimes
4:15
Speaker 1: we seem to roll that in. So it would feel
4:17
Speaker 1: like that starting at the top, at the parent, the
4:20
Speaker 1: parent's the one who needs to have a good working
4:23
Speaker 1: definition of what real happiness is.
4:27
Speaker 2: Equip me with that.
4:28
Speaker 1: What is that?
4:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so I think we need to pivot. I
4:32
Speaker 2: think happiness has become so tainted. We need to move
4:35
Speaker 2: away from it and go toward joy. If you look biblically,
4:38
Speaker 2: every time you see joy in the Bible, it's always
4:41
Speaker 2: paired with pain, suffering, and struggle. And so life is
4:45
Speaker 2: joyful and hard. John 16, 33, in this world, you
4:48
Speaker 2: will have trouble. James 1, 2, consider it all joy,
4:51
Speaker 2: my brothers and sisters, when you face trials of many kinds.
4:54
Speaker 2: Hebrews 12, 2, for the joy set before him, Christ
4:58
Speaker 2: endured the cross. Like there is joy in hard things.
5:02
Speaker 2: And so joy is a sense of enduring love and
5:04
Speaker 2: gratitude for others and that emerges through struggle. So if
5:08
Speaker 2: you take a minute and think about your most, the
5:10
Speaker 2: most joyful people, you know, especially the older people, you know,
5:14
Speaker 2: the most joyful people I know have not had easy
5:16
Speaker 2: lives and yet they're joyful. And so that's, to me,
5:21
Speaker 2: that's the hook. It's not a, let's do hard things
5:23
Speaker 2: because we're boomers and we just think people should do
5:26
Speaker 2: hard things because we did hard things. That's not the point.
5:30
Speaker 2: We want our kids to experience joy. And oftentimes we,
5:34
Speaker 2: The depth of the struggle they go through determines the
5:36
Speaker 2: peak of the joy. And joy isn't freedom from struggle.
5:40
Speaker 2: It's the fuel that allows you to struggle well. So
5:43
Speaker 2: what we want to hook kids on is joy. I
5:45
Speaker 2: am a big advocate as a parent of doing less, better.
5:51
Speaker 2: This is not adding more things to our plate, more
5:55
Speaker 2: things we're going to fail at, more things our kids
5:57
Speaker 2: are going to fail at. That's not the point. It's
5:59
Speaker 2: not performance. If our identity is in Christ, there's real freedom.
6:04
Speaker 2: in finding the joy that we have in our salvation
6:08
Speaker 2: and in life with Christ. It's not the joy that
6:10
Speaker 2: comes on the other side of death. It's the joy
6:13
Speaker 2: we can experience now. So that, to me, the hook,
6:16
Speaker 2: the whole point of the book, it's to find the
6:18
Speaker 2: happiness crisis because that's not working. You know, we lost 6,500
6:23
Speaker 2: kids aged 10 to 24 to suicide in our last
6:26
Speaker 2: recorded year. One in two seniors in high school that
6:29
Speaker 2: are girls are unsatisfied with themselves. And they often feel lonely.
6:33
Speaker 2: That's one in three for boys. Like it's not working.
6:37
Speaker 2: And so let's quit sending kids down this dead end
6:40
Speaker 2: path and let's invite them into joy. And there's some
6:43
Speaker 2: easy ways in the book to do that.
6:45
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. And you're referring to your new book, The
6:47
Speaker 1: Happiness Crisis, how adversity can build a resilient and joyful
6:51
Speaker 1: next generation. You know, John, my oldest son, he's my
6:54
Speaker 1: third of my kids, but he's my oldest son. he
6:57
Speaker 1: got really fascinated with The Greatest Generation. Tom Brokaw wrote
7:00
Speaker 1: a book on that. And he has laughed. Yeah, he's
7:04
Speaker 1: laughed about himself just saying, oh man, here I am.
7:08
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking this is hard and this is hard
7:10
Speaker 1: and this is hard. And he said, and I look
7:12
Speaker 1: back at a generation of young men and women who
7:15
Speaker 1: were spending their teens and early 20s as World War
7:19
Speaker 1: II was erupting and going through all these different things
7:21
Speaker 1: and he's laughed about, wow, okay, maybe, you know, I
7:25
Speaker 1: don't have it quite right. But when I look at
7:27
Speaker 1: some of the stats that you've just given us, what
7:30
Speaker 1: is so interesting in all of that is at the
7:33
Speaker 1: same time, and I think this is valid as well,
7:35
Speaker 1: but we do have more information about, hey, maybe the
7:39
Speaker 1: brain really does mature at a later age than we thought.
7:44
Speaker 1: Maybe there are things that we did looking back and
7:46
Speaker 1: we're like, wow, I was only 18 when I made
7:48
Speaker 1: that decision. That was a life-changing decision. Maybe I need
7:51
Speaker 1: to really infuse in my kids.
7:53
Speaker 2: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
7:53
Speaker 1: Let's pause a little bit. Maybe we don't have to
7:55
Speaker 1: think about that until we're 25. So we've got kind
7:58
Speaker 1: of this weird counterbalance going on where we can look
8:02
Speaker 1: at certain generations and look at the world events that
8:05
Speaker 1: were happening and see that weirdly they self-reported often come
8:09
Speaker 1: off as a more self-fulfilled and content generation than one
8:14
Speaker 1: in which we've been curating everything for them. But at
8:17
Speaker 1: the same time, we have all of this new neurological
8:20
Speaker 1: information and brain development information and all this kind of
8:23
Speaker 1: stuff that tells parents, hey, hey, hey, let's throttle it
8:26
Speaker 1: back a little bit. Let's not expect so much. Where
8:29
Speaker 1: do you land in some of all of that? Because
8:31
Speaker 1: that can be really bewildering wilderness to work through.
8:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's what makes parenting so much fun and
8:38
Speaker 2: fascinating to try to figure out how each one of
8:40
Speaker 2: our kids is wired. I write in the book, it's
8:42
Speaker 2: not about seeing all kids or seeing some kids. It's
8:44
Speaker 2: about seeing each kid because that's how God sees us.
8:48
Speaker 2: And it's real easy to make prescriptions for other people's
8:50
Speaker 2: kids and much more difficult to apply them to ourselves.
8:54
Speaker 2: So two things on that. So in the book, I
8:56
Speaker 2: read about Ed Newman. He's in speaking to this class.
9:01
Speaker 2: Our first gent at Baylor, Brad Livingstone, teaches a World
9:05
Speaker 2: War II class to high school students every fall, and
9:08
Speaker 2: he brings veterans in. Ed's 100 years old. I got
9:13
Speaker 2: to sit in and listen to him talk last fall
9:15
Speaker 2: to 17-year-olds, and he talked about enlisting when he turned 17.
9:19
Speaker 2: He and his brother were without a home starting at
9:21
Speaker 2: age 12 for him, so he enlisted. Six weeks later,
9:24
Speaker 2: he's on an aircraft carrier in the Pacific Ocean. He's
9:27
Speaker 2: a baker for that boat. And he tells his story.
9:30
Speaker 2: And the kids are sitting there for 45 minutes listening
9:33
Speaker 2: to this hero tell them what he did to bake
9:36
Speaker 2: bread for the guys on the aircraft carrier. He could
9:39
Speaker 2: have told them anything he wanted. He could have made
9:41
Speaker 2: up any war story he wanted. But those kids, he
9:44
Speaker 2: stood the whole time, 100 years old. He flew planes
9:47
Speaker 2: into his 80s. He still drives. They just soaked it
9:53
Speaker 2: all in. And that class, their goal is to thank
9:56
Speaker 2: a thousand veterans every semester. That's the goal of that class.
10:00
Speaker 2: And so that changes culture when you hear those stories about, hey,
10:04
Speaker 2: that's what struggle looks like. That doesn't minimize the struggle
10:09
Speaker 2: other kids are going through. It's not that we're, you know,
10:12
Speaker 2: fetishizing the horrific life that Ed struggled through till he
10:16
Speaker 2: was 17 and serving. That doesn't minimize what kids today
10:21
Speaker 2: are going through because that's real. We got over 2
10:23
Speaker 2: million kids ages 12 to 17 on antidepressants. That's real.
10:28
Speaker 2: Those things are real. But it's like, how do we
10:30
Speaker 2: help kids lean into the struggle and adversity they have
10:34
Speaker 2: in a way that helps them gain status? So David Yeager,
10:37
Speaker 2: he's a professor out of University of Texas, says at
10:40
Speaker 2: age 10, boys and girls start to produce larger amounts
10:43
Speaker 2: of testosterone. And that makes them seek status among their
10:47
Speaker 2: peers in the adult world. That's why so many cultures
10:49
Speaker 2: have rites of passage at around age 13, because they
10:53
Speaker 2: want to have status with their peers and with adults.
10:55
Speaker 2: So what looks like to us just an underdeveloped prefrontal
10:58
Speaker 2: cortex is for kids seeking status. So I found myself
11:03
Speaker 2: with my 18-year-old son running with the bulls in Pamplona,
11:06
Speaker 2: Spain all of a sudden, because for him, that's seeking status.
11:10
Speaker 2: For me, that's underdeveloped prefrontal cortex. But Now, for years,
11:15
Speaker 2: he's been able to tell the story of us running
11:17
Speaker 2: with bulls in Pamplona, Spain. So as a parent, what
11:20
Speaker 2: are we going to lean into with our kids that
11:22
Speaker 2: help them seek status in healthy ways? Now, I'm not
11:25
Speaker 2: advocating running with the bulls anytime you have to say, hey,
11:28
Speaker 2: no one's died since 2009 because you only die from
11:31
Speaker 2: getting gored. You don't die from getting trampled. That's a
11:34
Speaker 2: dumb idea. But we need to lean in those things
11:38
Speaker 2: and give them the opportunity to gain status in ways
11:41
Speaker 2: that are healthy. help them become more of who they're
11:43
Speaker 2: created to be because that develops gritty optimism the belief
11:47
Speaker 2: they can become more based on evidence and experience they've
11:50
Speaker 2: got to have evidence and experience of doing hard things
11:54
Speaker 2: that make them know they can become more of who
11:55
Speaker 2: god meant them to be and we've got to give
11:57
Speaker 2: them a chance to do that if we do that
11:59
Speaker 2: when they're six seven eight nine ten i think they're
12:02
Speaker 2: much less likely to have problems dealing dealing with adversity
12:06
Speaker 2: when they're 18.
12:07
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Speaker 1: Fox University is your student's next move. I've been so
13:13
Speaker 1: fascinated to watch just difference in cultures. My son-in-law is
13:17
Speaker 1: originally from Japan, so my grandbaby's are half Japanese and
13:21
Speaker 1: they spend a lot of time, they live here in
13:23
Speaker 1: the States, but they also go back to Tokyo and
13:25
Speaker 1: visit his family. And one of the things that has
13:27
Speaker 1: come out from learning more about that culture is in
13:31
Speaker 1: many parts of Japan, very small children walk to the
13:35
Speaker 1: store by themselves.
13:36
Speaker 2: That's right.
13:36
Speaker 1: Go to the grocery store, pick up what mom needs,
13:39
Speaker 1: walk back and the community is there to help support.
13:42
Speaker 1: Can I tell you as an American mom, when I
13:45
Speaker 1: see videos of this, my heart pounds and I think, what?
13:49
Speaker 2: On earth.
13:49
Speaker 1: Like, I mean, now, again, I live in Texas. We
13:52
Speaker 1: don't live in places that are built for small children
13:54
Speaker 1: to walk to the neighborhood grocery store. However, that concept, John,
14:00
Speaker 1: the concept of it is so wild to me. And
14:03
Speaker 1: yet you see beautifully in that culture, the level of
14:07
Speaker 1: responsibility and capability that is expected of And kids rise
14:11
Speaker 1: to the occasion. What do you find that is unique
14:13
Speaker 1: in American culture that maybe we're not leveraging the way
14:16
Speaker 1: that we should? I mean, that we aren't maybe expecting
14:19
Speaker 1: enough where there are other cultures that are like, no, no, no,
14:21
Speaker 1: our kids have got this. We've got an on-ramp to adulthood.
14:24
Speaker 1: This is how we start out.
14:26
Speaker 2: Well, I have a whole section on lawnmower parenting where
14:30
Speaker 2: we're not helicopters anymore. We're lawnmowers. We're just mowing down
14:33
Speaker 2: anything in their ways because we prioritize safetyism. That's safety
14:38
Speaker 2: as the ultimate virtue. Obviously, we want our kids to
14:41
Speaker 2: be safe. But if we don't train our kids how
14:44
Speaker 2: to operate in the real world, are we really making
14:47
Speaker 2: them safer? Because Jonathan Haidt argues, I think, effectively in
14:50
Speaker 2: The Anxious Generation, that the real world in most of
14:54
Speaker 2: our neighborhoods has never been safer. Where it's really dangerous
14:58
Speaker 2: is the virtual world. So is keeping your kid in
15:00
Speaker 2: the house playing Roblox or Minecraft with whatever creep that
15:06
Speaker 2: can interact with them possible? Or giving them a phone
15:09
Speaker 2: at age eight so we know where they're at as
15:11
Speaker 2: a parent. And so does every other creep in the world.
15:14
Speaker 2: Is that really making him safer? Because he says we
15:18
Speaker 2: need more bruises in the real world and less scars
15:21
Speaker 2: in the virtual world. And that one sat with me.
15:23
Speaker 2: The average age that we used to let kids play
15:25
Speaker 2: in the front yard by themselves was six. It's now 11.
15:30
Speaker 2: And so there's just part of me that's like kids
15:33
Speaker 2: need the opportunity to to deal with conflict with friends,
15:36
Speaker 2: to be able to figure these things out. And we
15:37
Speaker 2: have parents that are stepping in and organizing everything. We
15:41
Speaker 2: have teachers doing it. I have a story in the
15:43
Speaker 2: book about a teacher in Austin, your neck of the woods,
15:47
Speaker 2: who was assigned to be a swing switcher. So she
15:50
Speaker 2: had to stand with a timer and let kids know
15:52
Speaker 2: when their time on the swing was up so the
15:54
Speaker 2: next kid could get on. So instead of kids navigating
15:57
Speaker 2: the controversy over how long you get on the swing,
16:01
Speaker 2: you now have adult taking it over. another school in Nashville,
16:05
Speaker 2: they were having arguments over soccer, basketball, football. So they
16:08
Speaker 2: took the balls away for three weeks instead of letting
16:11
Speaker 2: the kids figure out how to navigate that conflict. We
16:14
Speaker 2: need to give kids the opportunity to do that because
16:16
Speaker 2: you can't become a fully formed adult if you don't
16:19
Speaker 2: have those developmentally appropriate experiences as a kid. So, and
16:23
Speaker 2: it can't all be adult. It can be supervised, but
16:27
Speaker 2: it should not be adult managed. So you can keep
16:30
Speaker 2: an eye on your kid out in the front lawn,
16:32
Speaker 2: but you want, him or her to feel like there's
16:34
Speaker 2: agency there, that they can do that in appropriate ways.
16:38
Speaker 2: Now there's TV shows about the Japanese kids doing that,
16:41
Speaker 2: where they follow the kids in and they're hilarious. I've
16:44
Speaker 2: watched clips of that on YouTube and it's amazing what
16:47
Speaker 2: they can do. The problem is when you don't do that,
16:49
Speaker 2: when they want to, and then you ask them to
16:51
Speaker 2: do it in middle school or high school, it was like, oh,
16:52
Speaker 2: I can't do that. I can't make a phone call.
16:55
Speaker 2: I can't pick up the phone and call. Like, that's aggressive.
16:57
Speaker 2: It's like, what? Like, what? But if they haven't gotten
17:00
Speaker 2: the chance to do it when they want to, they
17:03
Speaker 2: just suddenly decide, oh, that's not safe. Right. And so
17:05
Speaker 2: then they don't do it.
17:07
Speaker 1: That's so wild and so true. And I think about
17:11
Speaker 1: that a lot. And, you know, we do feel the pressure,
17:13
Speaker 1: I think, here in the States because we do see
17:15
Speaker 1: that there are some parents who just because they were
17:18
Speaker 1: letting their child have a little bit more agency and
17:20
Speaker 1: walk around the block. somebody calls the authorities. I mean,
17:24
Speaker 1: there really is such a reaction. And I'm glad that
17:27
Speaker 1: we're looking out for one another. I'm not saying that.
17:30
Speaker 1: And I don't think you're promoting that we just let
17:32
Speaker 1: things go wild. But we've got to give parents some
17:36
Speaker 1: room to help give their kids some agency. I recently
17:40
Speaker 1: ran across a story that's really been making the rounds, John,
17:42
Speaker 1: in social media when it comes to parenting. And it
17:45
Speaker 1: is the request of one mom in preschool to that
17:48
Speaker 1: there was another person in her child's preschool class and
17:52
Speaker 1: that family packed Oreos in their child's lunch and that
17:55
Speaker 1: just upset her child so much. And so can you
17:57
Speaker 1: please not do that? And what follows is a whole
18:00
Speaker 1: text stream between all of these parents trying to work
18:03
Speaker 1: this out. And I thought, I gotta be honest, it
18:06
Speaker 1: would have never occurred to me to expect compliance by
18:10
Speaker 1: other parents, short of a like serious food allergy, but
18:14
Speaker 1: it would have never dawned on me to have expected
18:16
Speaker 1: compliance on the part of other parents in my kids'
18:19
Speaker 1: preschool classes for what they were packing. And if my
18:22
Speaker 1: kid came home and somebody had something that they weren't
18:24
Speaker 1: supposed to have, well, that was an opportunity to grow
18:28
Speaker 1: some muscle and go, yeah, you know, sometimes people have
18:30
Speaker 1: something you want and it's not the best for you.
18:33
Speaker 1: And yet, boy, have we culturally shifted into a lane
18:36
Speaker 1: where we're trying to make everybody comfortable. What Is the science,
18:41
Speaker 1: the data around the pitfalls of trying to keep this
18:45
Speaker 1: uniformity comfort level going for everyone and expecting people to
18:50
Speaker 1: keep everybody comfortable?
18:52
Speaker 2: Well, the Atlantic had an article coming out last year
18:57
Speaker 2: about the trailing parent, the parent that is following their
19:01
Speaker 2: kid to college. And so they, they buy an apartment
19:06
Speaker 2: or a condo just in case the kid needs them.
19:08
Speaker 2: Now I'm all for having fun. If you want to
19:09
Speaker 2: go to a game weekends and you have the resources
19:12
Speaker 2: and want to do something, but you don't do it
19:13
Speaker 2: to be there for the kid. They're also following them
19:16
Speaker 2: to overseas. Uh, when they do study abroad trips with
19:20
Speaker 2: the whole point is to be immersed in another culture. Like, Oh,
19:23
Speaker 2: I'll just, I'll just go over there with them just
19:25
Speaker 2: in case they need me. And then a professor at
19:27
Speaker 2: Georgetown in the article is cited as, uh, having to
19:30
Speaker 2: tell a mom that she's not allowed to come and
19:32
Speaker 2: take notes in class for her daughter. We just keep
19:36
Speaker 2: extending these things because we want what's best for our kids.
19:39
Speaker 2: That's all good intentions behind that, but it's really, really
19:43
Speaker 2: problematic when we don't let kids grow up. Those become
19:50
Speaker 2: egregious and we're like, oh, but it's the same thing
19:52
Speaker 2: as the Oreo thing. Like, why would you assume that
19:56
Speaker 2: your preference for your kid should be everyone's preference for
19:59
Speaker 2: their kid? Because it makes your kid feel like they
20:03
Speaker 2: don't have much. My parents, when I was a kid,
20:05
Speaker 2: they would go dumpster diving behind the grocery store to
20:07
Speaker 2: supplement the food that we had. to have food to
20:10
Speaker 2: bring as a snack is a blessing to be able
20:12
Speaker 2: to have the kind of margin to be able to
20:14
Speaker 2: complain about other people's kids snacks. Do we understand like that?
20:18
Speaker 2: That's not where most of the world is. And so
20:21
Speaker 2: every Sunday at our house, we have about 30 to
20:24
Speaker 2: 40 Baylor students over for lunch and we feed them.
20:27
Speaker 2: We've done that for six years. That meal now costs
20:30
Speaker 2: more than our average weekly grocery bill. And what is
20:33
Speaker 2: awesome about it is, is we're doing that just out
20:36
Speaker 2: of God's abundance for us. For me personally, It is
20:39
Speaker 2: a huge blessing to be able to feed 40 people,
20:43
Speaker 2: afford that bill, have food, have food left over, because
20:47
Speaker 2: to me, that's abundance. And why can't we as parents
20:50
Speaker 2: with our kids live out of that abundance where if
20:53
Speaker 2: another kid does something that we don't like or we
20:55
Speaker 2: can't do, why can't we be grateful that like, hey, look,
20:58
Speaker 2: you get to do that. You get to go on
21:00
Speaker 2: that trip. You get to have that thing. You get
21:01
Speaker 2: to have that snack. We don't have to judge or
21:04
Speaker 2: be negative or criticize that person. Let's lean into what
21:08
Speaker 2: we're able to give our kids. And just to be
21:11
Speaker 2: able to have the margin to be concerned about the
21:13
Speaker 2: snacks other preschool kids are bringing, be grateful that you
21:16
Speaker 2: have the ability to attend to that. And then let
21:20
Speaker 2: them do what they need. Again, except for the food allergy.
21:25
Speaker 2: Let your kid realize, yeah, you're not going to be
21:27
Speaker 2: like every kid. The Bible makes it clear. we're not
21:30
Speaker 2: to be like the world. And I'm not saying that's
21:32
Speaker 2: related to Oreos, but there is an element. The sooner
21:35
Speaker 2: you realize that you're not always, you know, I had
21:38
Speaker 2: a seventh grader tell me, I know life isn't fair.
21:40
Speaker 2: I just wish it was unfair in my favor.
21:44
Speaker 1: That's some deep honesty right there, John.
21:46
Speaker 2: Right. That's not reality. So let's lean into what truth is. Yeah.
21:51
Speaker 1: So how do we then grapple with what is also
21:54
Speaker 1: a reality, which is kids who've been through, honestly, a
21:59
Speaker 1: lot of trauma, where things were so difficult, where food
22:02
Speaker 1: security was a problem, where they had a parent who
22:06
Speaker 1: was an addict, or even if we're just talking about
22:08
Speaker 1: things like a parent who was struggling emotionally and had
22:12
Speaker 1: anger issues or whatever, how far is too far when
22:15
Speaker 1: it comes to letting our kids struggle? Now, I've taken
22:17
Speaker 1: it all the way to one extreme, but there's even
22:19
Speaker 1: that place too of when a kid is really trying
22:23
Speaker 1: their best And they're really struggling and someone won't help
22:27
Speaker 1: or they learn to shut down even asking for help
22:29
Speaker 1: because they're going to get disappointed or made fun of
22:32
Speaker 1: or whatever. So how do we navigate that? Because certainly
22:36
Speaker 1: we've seen a way overreach when it comes to, for example,
22:41
Speaker 1: the trailing parent.
22:42
Speaker 2: I mean, wow.
22:43
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, there are kids who experience
22:47
Speaker 1: intense emotional neglect, physical neglect. Like, how do we come
22:52
Speaker 1: into the better balance of that?
22:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's so good. This book is not toxic positivity.
22:58
Speaker 2: I want to be really clear. We're not also celebrating trauma.
23:01
Speaker 2: Kids experience trauma. We do not want kids to experience trauma.
23:05
Speaker 2: Can the Lord redeem some of that? Yes, but I
23:07
Speaker 2: do not want that for kids. They just, just showing
23:10
Speaker 2: up as a lot for them. The book starts with
23:12
Speaker 2: the first kid I ever lost that I was teaching
23:14
Speaker 2: to suicide. Do not want that for any kid ever.
23:18
Speaker 2: I do not want that because we don't get that
23:19
Speaker 2: kid back. And what that does to the community is,
23:22
Speaker 2: is exhausting. So really clear. I'm glad you stipulated that
23:25
Speaker 2: with the way I define it is this joy comes
23:28
Speaker 2: through the ABCs adversity, which is doing hard things with others.
23:32
Speaker 2: That's not going through trauma. That's as a team. What
23:35
Speaker 2: do we, what did we do that we couldn't have
23:37
Speaker 2: done on our own? You're in a play and you
23:40
Speaker 2: learn your lines and you perform on a stage and
23:42
Speaker 2: you do like that's adversity. That's what I mean. Adversity
23:45
Speaker 2: that leads to belonging is, knowing that you matter and
23:48
Speaker 2: others matter to us. That's where trauma, trauma makes you
23:51
Speaker 2: feel alone. It makes you feel isolated. It means somebody's
23:54
Speaker 2: preyed on you or something horrible has happened. That's the
23:58
Speaker 2: opposite of it. So adversity that leads to belonging that
24:00
Speaker 2: then cultivates curiosity about others. That's what we really want.
24:05
Speaker 2: So instead of dismissing someone that's different than us as Christians,
24:08
Speaker 2: we should be the most hospitably curious people on earth. Oh,
24:13
Speaker 2: you don't agree? Oh, you're an atheist. You believe that
24:15
Speaker 2: you go through life and nothing matters other than what's
24:18
Speaker 2: right here. Well, I'm really curious how you get out
24:20
Speaker 2: of bed in the morning. Where do you find joy?
24:22
Speaker 2: Where do you find purpose? I love those conversations. How
24:26
Speaker 2: do we get our kids to do that as well?
24:29
Speaker 2: So the thing I would say to parents that I
24:32
Speaker 2: think is maybe freeing, the last chapter of the book
24:34
Speaker 2: is celebrating progress instead of success. To do that, you've
24:39
Speaker 2: got to document progress. How have you seen your kid
24:42
Speaker 2: become more of who they're created to be? So I
24:46
Speaker 2: start journals for parents that are just thinking about having
24:49
Speaker 2: kids or have a kid on the way. I would
24:52
Speaker 2: start a journal for all three of our kids and
24:54
Speaker 2: I would start writing, here's what I'm praying for you.
24:56
Speaker 2: Here's what I'm hoping for you. And then I would
24:58
Speaker 2: document the funny things, the crazy, weird things, the things
25:00
Speaker 2: I'll forget if I don't do. Now, to be clear,
25:03
Speaker 2: there are six and eight month gaps in those journals,
25:05
Speaker 2: but Our son, he's 23 now. He got married this
25:09
Speaker 2: last year. And at the rehearsal dinner, I was reading
25:11
Speaker 2: some of the things from it. And they were just like,
25:14
Speaker 2: look how much you've grown. Look at what the Lord's
25:17
Speaker 2: done in you. And some of them were just funny anecdotes.
25:19
Speaker 2: But at the end of it, I gave that journal
25:21
Speaker 2: to him. And I was like, hey, I'm going to
25:23
Speaker 2: keep praying for you, but this is yours. It was
25:25
Speaker 2: hard for me to give him because that's 23 years
25:29
Speaker 2: of writing that is all about him. But he, and
25:32
Speaker 2: I was like, don't lose this in the swirl of everything.
25:35
Speaker 2: I was like, I was worried he just might lose it.
25:36
Speaker 2: But a couple of weeks later, he texts me at
25:38
Speaker 2: two 30 in the morning and he's like, dad, I
25:40
Speaker 2: just finished that journal. And he's like, that's the, he's like,
25:44
Speaker 2: and I'm kind of a mess emotionally. He's like, that's
25:46
Speaker 2: the best gift anyone's ever given me because he was
25:48
Speaker 2: able to see how loved he was by a very
25:51
Speaker 2: flawed dad, uh, who loved him from before he was born.
25:56
Speaker 2: It's like, Hey, that's what we need to do because
25:58
Speaker 2: there's joy in that. There's joy in that for me.
26:00
Speaker 2: There's joy in that for him. And it's not doing
26:02
Speaker 2: more things. And if you're not a writer, don't do
26:04
Speaker 2: it with writing. Tell your kid, go do something like
26:07
Speaker 2: there's all different kinds of ways you can do that.
26:09
Speaker 2: But that's just one example.
26:10
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. John, help me help the listener fill
26:16
Speaker 1: the gap that we have seen emerging beneath our feet
26:19
Speaker 1: in recent parenting trends, which is this experience of kids
26:25
Speaker 1: coming into their later teen years, early adult years on
26:29
Speaker 1: into their adult years. saying, well, I know I was loved,
26:33
Speaker 1: but my parents were a mess. And they did this wrong,
26:35
Speaker 1: and they did this wrong, and they did that wrong.
26:36
Speaker 1: And they think this thing that I don't agree with.
26:38
Speaker 1: And we're seeing some of this escalate all the way
26:41
Speaker 1: into going no contact, which you and I know from
26:44
Speaker 1: a therapy standpoint, very few therapists ever recommend going no contact.
26:49
Speaker 1: It is a rare thing clinically that you ever tell
26:52
Speaker 1: someone to do this. And yet we have people doing it.
26:56
Speaker 1: I'm not saying they're not doing it without pain or heart,
26:59
Speaker 1: but it's casual. I mean, it's not under the direction
27:02
Speaker 1: and guidance of someone who actually understands the ramifications of
27:06
Speaker 1: what going no contact estrangement means. So I have a
27:09
Speaker 1: lot of parents in my world now who are terrified
27:13
Speaker 1: to create anything that's difficult or to say, no, I'm
27:17
Speaker 1: not going to give you money for that. Or no,
27:19
Speaker 1: I'm not going to pay for you to go on
27:20
Speaker 1: that trip with all of your other mid twenties friends
27:22
Speaker 1: or whatever the thing is. Because they're so scared that
27:25
Speaker 1: their kid will go, well, then fine. I'm going to
27:27
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with you. So how do we
27:31
Speaker 1: as parents who have these young adult children in this
27:35
Speaker 1: kind of environment, not cave to this comfort culture that says,
27:40
Speaker 1: if you don't do it my way, say it the
27:42
Speaker 1: way I want it said, believe the way I want
27:44
Speaker 1: it believed, then I will cut you out of my life.
27:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so good and so painful. I would say
27:52
Speaker 2: two things. This is a good encouragement for your young parents.
27:58
Speaker 2: Start young. You need to build this. And my wife
28:04
Speaker 2: was so amazing at this. She was the one that's like, hey,
28:06
Speaker 2: we're not giving phones till they're done with eighth grade.
28:09
Speaker 2: And I was like, hey, they're going to miss out.
28:10
Speaker 2: So she's like, I don't care. That one yes is
28:13
Speaker 2: so many no's. Once you say yes to that, because
28:16
Speaker 2: now you have to say no. It's like it was
28:18
Speaker 2: one of the biggest blessings ever. So start young. But
28:21
Speaker 2: if you can't, you're already there. they are already adults
28:25
Speaker 2: and they're out of the house, your role changes. I mean,
28:28
Speaker 2: it is a different role now and understanding that you're
28:30
Speaker 2: no longer in that coaching mode. You're in the cheerleader
28:34
Speaker 2: mode for your adult kids. Like you're not going to
28:37
Speaker 2: be able to put the toothpaste back in the tube.
28:39
Speaker 2: If you didn't expect your kids to do hard things
28:43
Speaker 2: or take responsibility for themselves when they were 16, why
28:46
Speaker 2: would you expect them to not be upset when you
28:49
Speaker 2: expect it when they're 24? And so there is this
28:52
Speaker 2: element of like, hey, that's out there. So now what
28:55
Speaker 2: you have to do is you have to model living
28:58
Speaker 2: in abundance, what that looks like, an abundant love for
29:01
Speaker 2: your kids, even when they're doing things that you're like,
29:05
Speaker 2: I don't agree with that. And I think you can
29:07
Speaker 2: tell them that. Now, they may dismiss you and cut
29:10
Speaker 2: you off, but you just keep loving them. I mean,
29:13
Speaker 2: it's what Christ does for us every day. When I
29:15
Speaker 2: started to cross every morning and realized I'm a sinner
29:18
Speaker 2: in need of grace, I become way less negative. way
29:21
Speaker 2: less judgmental and way less cynical. And then I am
29:25
Speaker 2: a better friend, better employee, better professor, better parent. Uh,
29:29
Speaker 2: and I think that's where it is. Like, instead of
29:32
Speaker 2: judging our kids, like, I can't believe they're doing that.
29:34
Speaker 2: I think we can point them to truth because all
29:36
Speaker 2: truth is God's truth. But I think we can do
29:38
Speaker 2: that in a loving way. And not expect to stick
29:41
Speaker 2: the toothpaste back in the tube. The last point I
29:44
Speaker 2: would say, self-care and self-comfort are two different things. We
29:48
Speaker 2: need to care for ourselves, but self-comfort is not healthy.
29:52
Speaker 2: So watching six episodes of The Office and eating a
29:54
Speaker 2: pint of Ben and Jerry's is self-comfort. It's not self-care.
29:59
Speaker 2: So when we see our kids moving in that realm,
30:01
Speaker 2: it's like, Hey, does that, how do you feel when
30:05
Speaker 2: you're done? The more I can ask questions that are
30:07
Speaker 2: genuinely curious, the more open dialogue I can get, because
30:12
Speaker 2: I think it's good to be a good storyteller, but
30:14
Speaker 2: as parents, we need to be better story seekers. And
30:17
Speaker 2: so the last chapter of the book is a five
30:20
Speaker 2: question frame to help our kids tell their own stories
30:24
Speaker 2: where joy showed up when they were resilient. I think
30:27
Speaker 2: that works with adult kids. I've used it with my
30:29
Speaker 2: 23-year-old son, and he's worked it. I was like, wow,
30:32
Speaker 2: that's a pretty compelling story frame. So helping them see
30:35
Speaker 2: the way the Lord is still shaping them, even if
30:38
Speaker 2: they don't see the Lord's hand in what they're doing,
30:42
Speaker 2: that's the biggest encouragement we can give them as adult kids.
30:45
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Well, Dr.
30:47
Speaker 1: Jonathan Eckert, I am so excited for you. This book,
30:49
Speaker 1: The Happiness Crisis, How Adversity Can Build a Resilient and
30:52
Speaker 1: Joyful Next Generation, all kinds of great ideas. If you
30:55
Speaker 1: find yourself thinking, oh man, what's going to happen with
30:58
Speaker 1: this next generation of kids? This is the kind of
31:00
Speaker 1: resource that you want to get your hands on because
31:02
Speaker 1: we are having lots and lots of conversations about, yes,
31:06
Speaker 1: both being very intentional to understand emotions and give language
31:09
Speaker 1: to that and honor what people's experiences are, and at
31:13
Speaker 1: the same time, equipped for the way that the real
31:15
Speaker 1: world happens to work. So I really appreciate you being on, John.
31:19
Speaker 1: Where can the listener go to find out more about you,
31:21
Speaker 1: your work, the.
31:21
Speaker 2: Book, all the stuff? Yeah. So the happinesscrisis.com, you'll find
31:26
Speaker 2: all the stuff about the book. There's free resources there.
31:29
Speaker 2: And then you can find the book anywhere books are
31:32
Speaker 2: sold and it's on Amazon, all the other online sites. JonathanEckard.org
31:37
Speaker 2: is my website. And then you can always find me
31:39
Speaker 2: at Baylor. I get to lead the Baylor Center for
31:41
Speaker 2: School Leadership, where I get to learn from the most
31:43
Speaker 2: amazing leaders all over the world who are learning good
31:47
Speaker 2: things about what works with kids. So thank you so
31:50
Speaker 2: much for having me on.
31:51
Speaker 1: Absolutely. It's been so insightful. Really appreciate you. All right, listener,
31:55
Speaker 1: you know what to do. It's time to go to
31:57
Speaker 1: the show notes because that's where you're going to find
31:59
Speaker 1: all the links that they put together for us. Rebecca
32:01
Speaker 1: and the team are just absolutely incredible. And you'll find
32:04
Speaker 1: out more there too about Dr. Jonathan Eckert. He's got
32:08
Speaker 1: such incredible stuff to share with you. So make sure
32:10
Speaker 1: you go and check out those links. I want you
32:12
Speaker 1: to call 888-834-2165 because we have a hotline. And when
32:17
Speaker 1: you call that number, you can leave your questions and
32:19
Speaker 1: the topics that you want to talk about there. And
32:21
Speaker 1: you know, all the legal stuff. If you call and
32:24
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32:25
Speaker 1: can use it on air. Just make sure that you
32:27
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32:30
Speaker 1: All Mom Does on the socials. You'll want to make
32:31
Speaker 1: sure that you're checking that out. And I love to
32:33
Speaker 1: interact with you too. Julie Lyle's car, Instagram is where
32:36
Speaker 1: I usually hang out. So come find me there. Hey,
32:38
Speaker 1: grab the link from this episode and share it with
32:41
Speaker 1: a friend who you know is right in the center
32:43
Speaker 1: of this, trying to figure out In all of their
32:46
Speaker 1: efforts to try to make their kid happy, they're struggling.
32:50
Speaker 1: This is such a great way for you to help
32:52
Speaker 1: share all the fantastic things that you heard us talk
32:55
Speaker 1: about today. And I will see you next time on
32:57
Speaker 1: the All Mom Does podcast.