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Launching a Writing Career with Janet Yeager · WriterCon

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This week on the writer kN podcast. If you decide that you're going to
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go ahead and write the story, think about why you want to write the
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story and what it means. And for example, with my story, I
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wrote down a little note that said, if I don't tell this story,
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you will Welcome to writer KHN, a gathering place for writers to share their
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knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best
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selling novelist and author of the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Renee Gutteridge,
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best selling author of over thirty novels and screenplays. One of the most
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fun parts of writer KHN, not just the big annual conference, but the
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retreat, the crews, really all of it, is that we get to
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work with the best people, people in all stages of their careers. Just
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a couple of weeks ago, we had Susan Meisner on this podcast, and
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next we'll be talking to Next week we'll be talking to Lisa Gardner. So
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there's two of the most successful best selling writers in the world. And on
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this podcast we're talking to someone who is actually starting on their journey, but
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who I predict as on her own path to writing excellence. Renee if I
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made you pick, And really most of my questions on this show are about
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making people pick. Right, if I made you pick, what are the
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three things or people most responsible for your really very impressive I'm going to say
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huge writing success. Well, thank you. Well, I have to say
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my college professor Terry Phelps, who I think was probably the first person to
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like actually say hey, kids, you have talent, like you should do
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this, and worked with me a solid four years and after that to develop
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me as a writer. So shout out to doctor Phelps at Oklahoma City University,
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who's still teaching there. And then I would say writers conferences for sure,
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not not even a question on that. And then as you were,
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you were mentioning Susan Meisner, Lisa Gardner. You know, Susan and I
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have known each other for years. In fact, we were thinking maybe it
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might be decades, and that's when you know you're getting old with you can
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count the decades. But I remember taking walks with Susan at a conference we
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used to tend called Mount Herman and talking through like writing problems, publishing problems,
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you know, trying to get this and that and having meetings and what
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do you I distinctly remember brainstorming a story idea with Susan and you think,
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you fast forward and you're like, wow, Susan's now this, you know,
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great bestseller. And that's where all these things started, these writers conferences,
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that's where you begin these lifelong friendships of you know, you were both
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nobody's at one point, and you get to see people grow and do things.
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So yeah, so I think, and then my writer friends, So
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that would be my third one of our my group of writer friends who I've
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known for years and years that I can reach out to the best. Jesse,
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You've been to at least a couple of writer cons now and a cruise.
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Have you met anybody who really impressed you? Well, listen, I'm
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present company excepted of course. I Mean, here's the thing. So,
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like, as someone who is not a writer, who's in like a completely
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different field, it is amazing to be and like it'd be like going to
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like the comic cons I go to and not being a that kind of nerd
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and just being able to talk to people without like being without fanning over them,
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right, And so I just love talking to creative people who are doing
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a creative thing. And so it's just been nice to be able to people.
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Are people are just available to talk to writer. You can just walk
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right up to people and be like, hey, let's talk about your thing,
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and like everyone is available on it do yeah, and it's it's just
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it's incredibly relaxing type of conference. Now for the people running it, obviously
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it's exhausting and I'm always used running around doing something, but for everyone else
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it seems very relaxing. Yeah. Well that's why those tables are chairs are
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out on the paneo, right, so people can talk all right. Our
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interview today is with Janet Yeager. I've had the pleasure of knowing Janet for
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a while now because she regularly attended Ryder Khan and some of our other programs,
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and now it's paying off. Her debut novel, Brothers by Honor,
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will be released very shortly, and she signs at Magic City Books in Tulsa,
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Oklahoma, on July eleventh. The book launches a series, the Lake
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Shore Stories said in Montana and Oklahoma. We will talk to Janet after the
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news segment and a brief word from our friend is that Draft to Digital Hi.
5:15
This is Kevin Thompinson with Draft to Digital e books are amazing, but
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for you. Find out more at draft to digital dot com. Well,
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it seemed there for a time that Amazon was the subject of every news story
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we did, and then they took a back bumper and no one complained.
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But because we always choose stories that we think are of interest and importance to
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authors, Let's talk about Amazon once again, and particularly Amazon KDP Kendle Direct
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Publishing that's their self publishing unit, because they've rolled out major changes in book
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category selection. First, I'll tell you what that means, and then i'll
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tell you why that's important. Used to be what categories your book would be
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listed in came about two different ways. One, when you're uploading the data
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about the book, including metadata, you would pick three categories. But even
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after that time, you had the ability to email Amazon and requests to be
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added to various categories. Even if you your book in that category. Bore
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a tangential at best relationship, which of course led to people looking for obscure
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categories that they could win. You know, categories that had so little getting
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published, that's popular there that you could get a number one and hope that
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nobody really looked at what the category was about. Well, you know,
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it took like fifteen years, but Amazon has twigged onto the problem and now
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they're changing all that. Now you can change You can pick your three categories
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right up front, and that's the end of the story. You'll never be
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able to change it. And there's nobody you can email to get stuff added
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to it. And actually the initial reaction from the author community has been mostly
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positive because the changes are thought to reduce abuse by authors who've been adding their
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books to arguably inappropriate categories just to increase their visibility so they can be number
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one. Jessie, could there come a day when we stop trying to game
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Amazon in one way or another to sell books? No, there's like this.
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The miscategorizing a thing is a problem on any sort of website that has
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search functions by category. This is something I dealt with in the past job,
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where we ask staff people had to approve like it was an event website
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and we had to approve the categories they chose because we knew people would take
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advantage of it to get into as many categories as possible. So like Amazon
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will keep trying to plug holes, and people will make new holes, and
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then Amazon will eventually try to plug those holes. So but well, it
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is the goal of all concerned to actually sell books, right, Yeah,
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I suppose, Renee. Yeah, are you fondly thinking of nostalgically of the
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days when there was one best seller list that anyone cared about and you didn't
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have to pick a category, you were just there or not. Yeah,
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well, I mean it's it's fascinating because, of course, Kindle, this
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was not around when I was really publishing into I was going through the traditional
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publishing route, even onto Amazon. But there was nothing worse than when you
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got a one star review for somebody who misunderstood what you're what category your book
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was in, and you know, I thought this was a suspense and they
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read the whole thing and then they were mad, you know, because they
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got the genera and yeah, they just the whole way through. They were
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like, when was the body coming? So yeah, you make it a
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valid point though, you're saying that basically, yeah, you might get a
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number one flag for a little while with this trick, but you may be
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impacting your ratings. You know, how many stars you've got on average,
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which is going to be more important in the long run. Well, and
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sometimes you know, people just picked it up with their own and they,
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you know, I'll know if I was even in the right or wrong category.
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I didn't. I didn't have anything to do with that, but man,
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they were sure mad or you know. So I don't know. You
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can the races one star reviews, but I think people know when they're reading
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it, they're like, oh, they just read the wrong genre. They
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just move on. They don't hold it against you, hopefully, hopefully I
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would hope. So, yes, Okay, News story number two, this
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is about Mary Trump and Gene Carroll in our continuing series of authors did what
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they are collaborating on a novel and it's not political, So I guess this
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isn't a political story. You know who I'm talking about, Mary Trump,
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the niece of our former president Donald J. Trump, who has written a
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scathing book about him really the whole family, and has appeared frequently in interviews
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saying less than positive things about Uncle Donald. Jeane Carroll, of course,
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is the one who brought a civil suit against Trump alleging sexual harassment, sexual
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assault actually and defamation and got a Jerry verdict of five million dollars. And
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now they're working together on a book that has nothing to do with politics,
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they say, or the former president, or psychology, which would be Gene
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Carroll's field. The new book, called The Italian Lesson, is a romance
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novel about an American woman with a secret past who tries to reinvent herself in
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Tuscany, where she opens a cafe and meets a handsome local vineyard owner.
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I feel like I've already read this book, and all I've done is read
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this description. Anyway, they're going to release that on substack, because that
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means that, you know, they can, They can have subscribers and make
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a little money along the way, even before it's published in book Forum.
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They've also enlisted a third collaborator, Jennifer Toub, who is an actual published
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author and law professor and probable actual writer. But who knows Jesse anxious to
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read this book? I mean no, but I'm happy for both of them.
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Though, like, yeah, they they deserve whatever money they can make
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from this. Um, So I'd be interesting to see that if this is
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how the substack model works, because I don't know how many authors have tried
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that yet. But but yeah, the book doesn't sound like it's breaking any
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new ground, but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't be good. Yes,
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absolutely right, Okay, renee hypothetical in my continuing series of let's pose moral
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and ethical challenges THEE has to deal with without any prior thought. So let's
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say Mary Trump and Jean Carroll came to you and wanted you to goost write
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this book because I'm pretty sure somebody is would you take the job? Okay?
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Well, as I'm so good at doing not answering the question, but
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answering the question. Okay, who's the genius in this is my question?
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And I'm looking at the street and I'm like, isn't Jennifer tob Is she
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like, look, I have this really great story. Nobody's gonna buy this.
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Who can I get to be on the cover with me? That's going
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to stir up some attention, which is there's not even a cover because it's
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just on sub stacks. So yeah, yeah, Um, I don't know,
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Like this is the weirdest. As you were reading this, I was
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like having a very hard time following what was going on because I thought this
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was going to be a nonfiction book and then it's a novel. And then
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you threw in this third author because they're not collaborating, it's it's the three.
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It's the three of them, which I mean, I'll be honest with
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you, that's a nightmare right there. And that's too many cooks in the
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kitchen. So I have a feeling there's one writer in two people who are
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getting paid to throw their name on it. And but I don't know,
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these are just I'm just guessing. See, although who knows. Mary Trump
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has produced a book before, and Gene Carroll used to be or is an
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advice columnist, right so yeah, so is Mary Trump's this nonfiction though?
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Right? Right? Yeah? And so nobody has written fiction in here.
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That's maybe Jennifer but she's a law professor, so are there any fiction writers
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in this? And lawyers are renowned? So yeah, So but if you
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think about the three of them together, they actually make a really wonderful personality
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of a novelist. Like if you just took like psychologists, and then you've
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you know, Mary Trump and all of that, and Jennifer who's a law
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I mean, I don't know, Like, let's see what as we know,
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if it wants to sell, it needs to be spicy, right right,
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spicy romance. You're right, we learned that on the cruise. All
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right, Jesse, I think it's time to queue up the music. Let's
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talk to Janet Yagers podcast. Thank you, it's very nice to be here.
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Yeah, good to see you again. Hey, I bet you already
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know what I'm gonna say, because it's the first question every time. If
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you could give writers one piece of advice, what would it be. Well,
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I would say that that you should stick with what you If you decide
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that you're going to go ahead and write the story, think about why you
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want to write the story and what it means. And for example, with
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my story, I wrote down a little note that's said if I don't tell
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this story, who will? And so it was important. Stories pop into
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your head for a variety of reasons. And sometimes there's there's a nugget that
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wants to be told or wants to be heard, and so that's part of
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it. So I would say, listen to that voice, go ahead and
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and don't be afraid to go ahead and just see where it takes you.
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Sounds like good advice to me. Hey, congratulations on the publication of your
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first book. Thank you. How long have you been working on this?
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Initially the story started in twenty fifteen. Actually, it was a story that
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I grew up with and it was about my father and actually behind me.
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I don't know if you guys can see it, but there's a story about
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my father. And so I grew up with a story. And then in
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twenty fifteen, my family and I went on a family family retreat, our
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family reunion to Norway and we went to a Norwegian resistance museum. And so
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I had gone with my kids and my husband and we'll found out that my
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father and his friends were actually in the museum and that it was a very
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well known story. And then I found out that two of the people who
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were on this journey with my father were still alive, and so a year
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later went ahead and met with them, and so that was kind of the
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start of it, and so I wrote things down. UM didn't know what
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I was doing. I was completely a complete newbie, but then Um went
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to classes, went to ryder Khan went to various things, and suddenly the
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story started taking shape, and so it was a little bit of a journey,
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but I think it was worth it. Well, okay, tell us
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real quick about the story. What gives us an idea of what it's about.
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Okay. So it takes place. It starts in it's in takes place
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in Norway. It starts in right before the war, and then in there
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it's about four teenagers that one of whom is my father is based on my
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father and his friends, but they are working for the Norwegian resistance, and
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so they are smuggling guns and munitions and propaganda through Nazi each checkpoints. And
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one of the character, Corey's half brother, is a Nazi collaborator, and
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so he finds out what he Corey and his friends are doing, and so
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they went ahead and he went to he was going to go to the authorities.
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And so these teenagers stole a rowboat and decided to go ahead and row
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across the North Atlantic from Bergen, Norway to the Shetland Island, so that
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they could go ahead and continue their resistance efforts. And so it started out.
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The story started out as being an action adventure novel, but as I
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started writing it, it really became a story about friendships and what drove each
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of these characters to go ahead. And when the moment came that they all
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said, yes, we will go ahead and do this. We will all
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a battle of storm battle two hundred and fifty miles in the North Atlantic in
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a sixteen foot rowboat. So it's about friendship, it's about honor, it's
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about valor. So um there's really two journeys in one. It sounds like
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it took a lot of research. It did, it did. It was
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fun research. Um I got to go ahead. Like I said, I
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grew up with my father's side of the story. But um I got to
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meet three out of the four main characters, and so they went ahead and
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they filled me in on information that I wasn't aware of, and so learning
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and learning about them and what drove them to it, and their place in
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the world, and how they viewed they where they were in their place in
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the world, and how that related to their how the friends and their families
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viewed their war efforts and the war in a general and going ahead and going
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the resistance movement in Norway. Was it popular? Was it not popular?
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It turns out that I thought it was popular because my father and his friends
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were very much involved with the resistance. But there was a middle ground,
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and there was also people who viewed the Nazi the German occupation as being a
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good thing. So learning that was very interesting as well. You mentioned Wryter
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Khn a minute ago, which of course made my ears perk up. Yeah.
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I think you may have actually attended a retreat at least once, right,
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Yes, yes, this self serving question, how did that go?
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I loved it, I absolutely loved it, and I would recommend to and
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this is not a shameless plug, but it's the truth. I would say
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that it changed the trajectory of how I wrote, how I approached some of
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the characters. There was one character in particular at Gramps, who was probably
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he. He was kind of the voice of the people. He was the
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one there's always the person in every story that is the truth teller, and
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so Gramps was a m He was an interesting character to write. But there
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was a guy that was in our in our dairy hollow writing retreat that said,
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well, I don't you know, I don't know if you're aware of
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this that Norway. In Norwegian best Afar is the name for grandfather, not
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Gramps. And I went, well, yeah, I mean I was polite
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that I was going, yeah, but he's named Gramps. He really is
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named Gramps. And then I was like, yeah, but why is he
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named Gramps? Why? And suddenly this this whole extra story about how he
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had spent time in New York, and he that that Gramps had gone from
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Norway to the United States and then returned back to go ahead and marry the
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woman he loved. But there was still this part of him that had the
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colloquialisms of New York, of Brooklyn, and so they called it Brooklyn America.
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He always referred to stuff it. And that was in no small part
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because of going to and getting the feedback that what happened at Dairy Hollow fantastic,
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which is where we were holding our retreat that year. Yeah, what
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about your publisher? Where'd you find the publisher? I went to a I
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went to OWFI and well, yes, Oklahoma Writers Federation and had gone ahead
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and made the pitch and they went ahead and they said yes. So I
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was very excited about it, and I've been excited to work with them.
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And so now the book is coming out at the end of June. So
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you had mentioned this is the first book in this series. What's the next
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already? I'm sorry now I must have been book. Ye, this is
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a standard no, no, no, okay, this is a standalone um.
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And so it's really it's a story of friendship over um, the friendships
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of these of these these young men and how they when they grow up as
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well. Um. But I am working on a novel, so it will
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be I know you're gonna probably ask me the question, Um, what what
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am I working on now? But there is a story series. It's going
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to be called The Lake Shore Stories, and I'm working on the first story,
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um, which is kind of gone with them when meets the help.
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I think that's about as about as vague as I possibly can get. Okay,
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well, it's exciting to hear that you've got something else going Um what
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Uh, Well, let me ask this because our our listeners always like to
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know what our writers days look like. What what do your writing days look
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like? What are your drinks that you must have, etcetera, etcetera.
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Well, I do I try to go ahead and get up early in the
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morning. I actually still work, um, and so I have a full
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time job. So what I try to do is I try to get up
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really super early. For me, it's easier for me. Apparently I'm a
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morning person. In the muse talks to me in the morning's. So the
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first thing is is that there is a definite large cup of coffee by my
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side, and I start going ahead, and i'd write, um, I
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got it's for me, it's kind of like watching a movie, and I'm
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very visual about that. So when I'm doing dialogue or if I'm writing the
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story, it's almost like I'm watching a movie and it's I can see it
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unfold. So I go ahead and do that. And then um, if
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I have time at lunch, then I will go ahead. Then I will
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write a try I shoot for five hundred words that would be nice. And
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then once I'm done with that, then I email it to my home address
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and then I just dump it in and this kind of continue on and then
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yeah, that's you know, and you bring up an important point, Janet,
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because I a lot of writers do have other jobs, you know,
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and it is interesting how each one finds that special writing time in the midst
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of already a day of eight hours of work or whatever the hours are.
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So I love I hope that's inspiring our listeners to go. You know,
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you can still write a whole book and have a full time job and you
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can find your space. So good job on that, thank you. And
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sometimes but I think sometimes the mus like she nudges me and says, now
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let's go, I got something for you to write, and I'm like,
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okay, all right, I love it. Well. I used to be
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I used to be a night our writer, um, and then as I
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passed thirty, I have become a morning right. My brain doesn't even function
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after five? Is Bill? Not me trying to form words? Bill?
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You're a morning writer too, aren't you? You're in the morning. Yeah.
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Yeah, So I think my brain just is on fire in the morning,
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and with coffee as well. So well, and I also realized that
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too, that um writing like I've given my giving myself permission to go ahead
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and know that I'm writing a first draft and just get it finished and then
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you can always go back and edit it and just don't I will. I
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do revise. I do revise somewhat, but I have to kind of slap
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my hand because otherwise I'm not going to get the thing done. So one
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of the hardest things for me to learn, what is that unpleasant feeling you
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get when you're writing your first draft and think this is really awful. It's
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not just me, it's pretty much everyone in their first draft, isn't it.
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And then you go back and read it a second time and although yes
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it's rough, it's not as bad as I remember it. Usually they tell
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you to go ahead and put it away for two to three months. And
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I don't know how anybody could stand that. Advisa is no way, there's
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absolutely that's a long time. I'd forget what I had written about to start
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my brain completely over. But but I do think, you know, a
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few days a week or so, Yeah, it would be my comfort level
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of stepping away, especially if I'm on a deadline. I don't have two
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to three months built in for my deadlines, right, So okay, So
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Janet, we always ask this question, are you a panther or plotter or
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I am going to use the new trendy terms because I actually like them.
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Achector the archaeologist? What are you? What on the scale? Where are
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you? I would say that I am because a lot of the stuff that
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I write actually happen in real life. So I have kind of the beginning,
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middle, and end. I know how the story begins, and I
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know how the story ends. That's said, there are things that creep in.
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For example, the work that the novel that I'm working on right now
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is about a woman who is a landman, which is very much like what
29:34
I do, and so I'm a mineral manager. And so she has something
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horrific happened in her life and her life is completely upended. But as she's
29:48
flying up to claim her husband's body, she's flying over this where she used
29:56
to work, and she starts recalling things about gall ology. Now I know
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knew zero about geology, but now have now decided that I needed If I'm
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going to write about geology, maybe I should learn a little bit about it.
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So I went ahead and I am now become a YouTube aficionado of a
30:17
guy and started following it what did the rocks for Jacks? One on one?
30:22
And but it's kind of helping me to inform because she has now she
30:30
has a particular way of looking at the world, which I had no idea
30:33
that she was going to be able to do that. And so that's one
30:37
of the things that I would say that I am a plotter, but I
30:42
really really liked the idea of inspiration striking out of the middle of nowhere and
30:48
just kind of enhancing what I'm writing. I love it. Yeah, so
30:56
well, so, looking back on your road to publication, Um, what
31:02
do you think is the most helpful piece of advice that you picked up along
31:07
the way that could help others who are seeking publication get an editor, a
31:15
really good editor. Everybody needs an editor. And I thought, because like
31:22
I said, I was a complete maybe I had gone through spell check and
31:27
I had gone through grammarly, and by god, I had the world by
31:32
the tail. And so I went ahead and I set it off to an
31:36
editor and she came back with the laundry list, let's just say, a
31:44
long laundry list of things. But it taught me how to go ahead,
31:49
what my pitfalls were, and what I needed to work on and what I
31:53
got right. That was the beauty of working with her was that she also
31:59
encouraged. She knew that I was a nevie, she knew that I was
32:01
a debut and she said, you actually do have something here, but you
32:07
need a little help in finding the voice and finding it. So get an
32:13
editor, hire an editor. Yes it costs money, Yes it's worth it.
32:17
It's an investment in your future. And I know what a lot of
32:21
people listening are thinking. They're thinking, yeah, sounds good. But where
32:23
do you find these wonderful editors? Where'd you find yours? I found mine
32:28
through a local writing group. I belonged to the Tulsa Night Writers and she
32:32
had she was listed and I asked a round and then she came across,
32:37
came very highly recommended, and so I talked to her. This was during
32:42
the pandemic. I actually didn't meet her in person until after the pandemic,
32:46
but she and I she emailed stuff and like I said, she's it was.
32:52
My manuscript was gone for you know, a month or so, and
32:57
then it came back and I was like, oh, this is sack at
32:59
this and I'll open it up. And I was first struck. But she
33:07
was very, very good and very encouraging. So that is very important.
33:10
That's what you need. And everybody knows. I'm going to say, we
33:15
have many wonderful editors who will be a writer cone this year. And I
33:21
personally think that's where you ought to be looking for one. Not you,
33:22
Janet, you've already got one, but everybody else. But I agree,
33:28
I absolutely agree, And I think that taking your ego out of it,
33:32
because this is your baby. I mean, you guys are all writers,
33:37
and you think you have something, you have you go back to that gut.
33:42
There was a reason why you wanted to write it in the first place,
33:45
and you've gotten it, and then you find out that you feel,
33:50
oh, well, I know I can do this by myself, and it's
33:52
very difficult. I think it's a very very difficult road to hope. But
33:58
by doing this, by going ahead and having someone show you how you can
34:02
make it shine, that was so important. And so I think that being
34:10
don't be afraid to go ahead and ask and see how it can be approved,
34:17
you might surprise yourself. I was very surprised. I was very very
34:21
surprised. So what I sent originally was not what ended up being in the
34:28
book, and I'm very grateful for that. Actually, yeah, it felt
34:30
the same way about My first real editor came after I'd sold the book to
34:36
Valentine at Random House. But I remember when I got that first manuscript back,
34:40
and it's dripping with red ink. But once I got over my outrage,
34:47
do they not know how brilliant I am and sat down and actually read
34:52
it, thought, yeah, yeah, that is better. Yeah, ok,
34:59
yeah that was kind. That was kind of it. And she was
35:04
She was marvelous. She was absolutely marvelous. I had an editor very very
35:07
early on who had given me advice on the original manuscript, and then along
35:14
the way then I had gone ahead and put it away and then got serious.
35:17
And that was about the time that I went to your thing at Dairy
35:22
Hollow, and then the whole trajectory of the story changed. Things left,
35:30
things were created. So I've actually been lucky, very very lucky to have
35:37
very talented people around me to go ahead and help help with the projects.
35:40
So I mean, just to eliminate any confusion. And of course mentioned another
35:46
one of her programs that the Dairy Hollow program that was a lovely writer's retreat
35:53
in Arkansas. We're still doing our retreats, but this year it's going to
35:58
be in Branson in July, so if anybody's interested, go check that out
36:01
on the website. Janet, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
36:06
Thank you, I appreciate it. Good luck with this first book. Okay,
36:09
thank you, thank you, it's been a pleasure talking with you.
36:19
Just a few parting words once again. Ryder Con is the place to be
36:24
September first through fourth and Oklahoma City. That's Labor Day weekend, so you've
36:30
got some time off from work anyway, right, We got more than sixty
36:35
presenters lined up, agents, publishers, editors, people who work with agents
36:40
on marketing and PR, and a bunch of other stuff. And I can
36:46
just about guarantee you will learn things you didn't know but are really glad to
36:53
know because it's going to give your writing career a boost. So check out
36:59
our web site, which is writercon dot com and see if this isn't where
37:06
you want to. I mean, I'm gonna be there, and Renee's gonna
37:08
be there, so you know, Jesse's gonna be there because somebody has to
37:13
record all this stuff. So come join us Labor Day weekend in Oklahoma City.
37:20
All right, until next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail.
37:27
If you refuse to quit, I'll see you next time.