Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Responding to Your Child About Body Safety (John Cardamone)

Transcript

Responding to Your Child About Body Safety (John Cardamone) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. What does it
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: actually take for a child to tell us when something
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: is wrong? And I'm talking about the heavy stuff. I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: talking about body safety abuse? And when they do tell
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: us that something's wrong, how do we respond in those
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: first critical moments because our response can change everything. John
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Cartermonne is a body safety educator and a disclosure response
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: specialist and he knows this territory, unfortunately from the insight,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: not just from the books. Sexually abuse. At the age
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: of six, he spent over thirty years on a healing
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: journey that has taught him something vital. Connection and belonging
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: are not just nice to have is They're the foundation
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: that allows children to survive trauma without it defining their future. Today.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: John works with families and educators to create the conditions
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: where children feel safe enough to speak up and where
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: adults know how to respond when children open their mouths
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: and say those words that no parent ever wants to hear.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: John cartermon with me on the Happy Families podcast is next. Hello,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families podcast, where we give you
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's most
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast, John Cardamone, I've already done the intro.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Welcome and thanks for spending some time with me today.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, doctor Justin Colson. It's an absolute
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: pleasure to be here and for you to give some
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: time to a really important topic.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: John, just before we start the conversation, a quick heads
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: up if parents hadn't already ascertained, we're going to deal
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: with some pretty heavy stuff today. This might be one
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: where you think about whether the kids listened to it.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Perhaps you want to listen to it first before you
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: put it in front of the kids. Just some sensitive
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: information and content coming your way. So John, let's start
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: with you your story to the degree that you're comfortable
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: sharing it, and in the short time that we have
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: you were six when you're sexually abused. You've described that
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: two year experience and the thirty years plus since then
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: as a healing journey. Tell us briefly what happened and
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: what it's taught you about what children need most when
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: they're going through something like this.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you Justin. Again, As you mentioned, when I
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: was six years old, I started to be sexually abused
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: by a family member, a trusted family member at that
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: point in time, and when I wanted to disclose, I
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: was disclosing, but I was disclosing through behavior. And we know,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: well most of us know, hopefully that behavior is all behaviors,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: is a form of communication. I just didn't have the
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: skills to be able to do that verbally, and there
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: was a number of reasons why. But took me two
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: years to be able to disclose to my mum. And look,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: this is no one's fault apart from the perpetrator. But
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I truly believe if we start body safety education and
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: really creating those preconditions for our children to feel safe,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: what unsafe can feel like, what it can look like.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I really think there's a lot of prevention work that
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: can happen and really have an impact on over ninety
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: percent of children that are sexually abused. It happens to
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: someone that they know. So I just to add on
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: to that before I finish up that little loop, I
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: want your listeners. I want to challenge their thoughts and
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: what they know. A lot of good things come out
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: of the eighties and nineties, a lot of good footing
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: AFL I'm talking about, But one thing that I think
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: needs to be a little bit on the back burner
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: and have an open mind. Is stranger danger. I think
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: if we change the conversations to strange behaviors. I'm not
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: saying that strangers don't do bad things, but as I said,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: when it comes to sexual abuse, over ninety percent of
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: that is happening to people that we do know, to
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: the trold in particular. So I think instead of stranger danger,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I teach with my kids strange behaviors, which incorporates everyone.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, John really important. I remember talking with my kids
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: one time, just said, one day you might need to
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: rely on the goodness of a stranger, and if I
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: teach you that strangers are dangerous, then you could end
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: up in a whole lot more trouble. So talking to
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: them about which strangers they might approach first, and unfortunately
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: there is a hierarchy. We know that some people are
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: going to be safer than others, but talking to them
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: about being confident enough to approach a stranger and asking
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: for help if they need to is really valuable. And
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: also recognizing where most abuse comes from tends to be
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: people who are known and trusted. There's a phrase that
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: you used as you were answering that question and sharing
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: your story that definitely needs to be unpacked a little deeper.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: You talked about the preconditions for safety. So preconditions is
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: this idea that children feel safe enough to disclose and
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: most parents can get their head around that. I need
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: to create an environment where I'm kind and I'm present
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: and my children can tell me anything, right, and every
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: parent gets that. But you've shared you really, I know
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: you behave You was challenging, but there was nothing explicit here.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: You weren't saying, mum, something bad is happening. There's abuse.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: It's happening in my life right now. So many kids,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: the majority of kids probably still stay silent about abuse,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: and they do it for years and even decades. So
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: my question for you here is to create those preconditions
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: for safety? What are we missing? Like, what actually creates
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: the conditions where a child really does feel safe enough
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: to speak it?
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Really? It's it's really complex, but it's not. And when
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: I say it's complex, because as you would know better
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: than me, there's no parenting one oh one book because
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: every household and every community is different. But when it
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: comes down to it, it's really simplistic. You look at
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Maslow's hierarchy of needs that seem to have vanished in schools,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: in teaching, But it really comes down to the baseline
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: of that is that all children need to have connection, security,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: and feel safe. And how do we do that, Well,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: it's by communication. It's by setting boundaries. And when I
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: do say boundaries, all children do need boundaries. And that
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: looks different in every household. Again, but there needs to
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: be open communication. And the other flip side of that
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: is the way we respond to a child spilling milk
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: or water. If we're responding in a really angry manner,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: well that's going to set up conditions where that you know,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: when there's abuse happening to a child, a lot of
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: the time, they'll think it's their fault. So their condition already,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: or their pre disposition to that is that they can't
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: tell because you know, I spill some milk and water
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: and I get yelled out. So that's a really tiny thing,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: but I think that's a really important reminder that we
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: need to create those conditions where children feel safe that
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: they can speak to us, even the minor things, because
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: those minor things really make up the big things. Now
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: you're just discussing how how do we create those preconditions
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: for the big things. But it could be bullying at school,
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: it could be being teased, and then it continues online.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: The way I think about it is we're really good
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: at teaching maths, you know, fractions and decimals, and we
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: know we need to teach that explicitly, and if our
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: children are struggling with that as parents, we get worried
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: and we get a tutor. But this is no different
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: when it comes to body safety esseducation. It needs to
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: be ongoing, it needs to be explicit. And when I
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: say explicit, I'm not saying that it's a dangerous conversation
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: where everyone you know, the blinds are shut and we're
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: having eye to eye conversations. It's around the dinner table.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I mean with my five year old, she'll say, oh, Daddy,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: I know what to do if someone touches my bum,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: and so it's just as innocent as that. And then
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: your role modeling with your partner and saying, yeah, someone
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: hit me to that work, but I was calm, I
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: moved away. It's all those kind of conversations. But one
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: thing is role modeling to children, because they can't be
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: what they can't see. A lot of the time, So
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: it's about role modeling. And if you're a single parent,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: I know the challenges. Well, not personally, I'm luckily enough
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: to still be married with my beautiful wife. But it's
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: having constant, explicit, simple conversations around how to be body
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: safe and role modeling that and that's the start of
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: the preconditions and that can look a lot different in
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: lots of different households.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Youah two things on this first off, In my family,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: we have at least two formal conversations around these topics
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: a year with our kids. We sit down the latter
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: room and say, all right, today we're going to talking
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: about blah blah blah, and if we go and sometimes
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, we've had this conversation, and yet it's
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: always a productive chat. It's so funny because as parents
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: you kind of go, oh, I can't believe we're talking
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: about this, and then you start the conversation and generally
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: goes really well, like the kids are interested and they
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: want to engage. Second thought that I had as I
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: was listening to what you said, John, is the preconditions
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: are actually set with the little things, right, like when
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: they can talk to you about the little things, and
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: they know they've got your attention. That repeated pattern of
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: behavior sets things up so that they know that you'll
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: pay attention to the big things. If they know that
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: you won't listen to the little things, sometimes they're less
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: likely to come to you for the big things. So yeah,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: just as I was listening to I thought, these are
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: these are a couple a couple of things that are
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: jumping out at me. After the break, we're going to
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: have a look at what to do if your child
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: does disclose abuse or something traumatic or challenging. Plus how
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: to know when to step in with your own connection
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: versus clinical intervention and stay with us. We're back. It's
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast. John Cartermoone is my guest today
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: talking about how to keep our kids safe, how to
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: have those big conversations about body safety and child protection
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: and abuse. John, if child does disclose abuse or something traumatic. Actually,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: before I asked the question, a quick story, two stories.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Somebody quite close to me was abused as a child
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: somewhere around about ten eleven maybe twelve years of age.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: There was a visiting family member from overseas who made
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: an approach to this person and their friend who were
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: having a hangout at another family member's house. The friend
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: was able to get away without any issues, but this
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: particular child was harmed by this man. When she went
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: to her mom and explained what had happened, her mum
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: literally turned around, slapped her in the face and said,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: don't ever speak about that again. I mean just it's
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: jaw droppingly tragic to hear a story like that, and
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: hopefully breathtakingly unusual as well, nevertheless true story. The second
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: story that I always share when I'm talking about this
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: is my mum shared this when she was quite young.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Her father had a friend over though I was spending
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: some time together, and the man, when my grandfather left
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: the room, made an indecent approach to my mum. It
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: wasn't serious, there was nothing heavy about it. It wasn't
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the kind of thing where she's going to be traumatized
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: for a lifetime. But it was absolutely indecent and absolutely inappropriate,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: and she when the man left the house, because my
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: grandfather came back into the room moments later. When he left,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: my mum told my grandfather what had happened, and he
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: got down on his knees in front of her. He apologized,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: and he said that man will never ever ever set
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: foot in our house again. And I'm so glad you
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: told me. I mean, you couldn't get a bigger contrast
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: between those two responses. If a child discloses something concerning,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: whether it's abuse or just I felt really uncomfortable in
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: this situation, whether it's our child or they're telling us
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: about a friend or something like that, getting that response
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: right matters because I imagine that our instincts are going
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: to go in all sorts of different directions. What do
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: you counsel parents to say in this situation?
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to start off with a quote and
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: then I'll quickly answer that question if that's okay. So
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: the way you respond to a disclosure can either start
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: the healing process or prolong it. And your two stories
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: absolutely show the two different pathways. Unfortunately or fortunately for
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: that person that was believed from your grandfather, But in
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: the moment, it is absolutely critical to believe, acknowledge, and
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: validate what you've just heard. If there's nothing anyone else
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: gets from this podcast is if there's a disclosure, it
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: is absolutely vital through your body language and the way
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: you respond verbally is that they need, and whether it's
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: a child or an adult, because it takes on average,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: it can take twenty four years for someone to disclose
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: their abuse. So whether a child or an adult disclosers,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: it's absolutely vital that you believe, validate, and acknowledge, and
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: on top of that, you need to stay calm. Children
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: are like sponges, they're like mirrors. If you're shocked, you're angry,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: that's just going to scare them. You know, you don't
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: have to be a medical scientist understand that, and there's
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: some people that might not have an understanding. But children
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: need to feel safe. Find out a compliment that a
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: child has come to you because they feel safe enough
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: with you. And there's nothing wrong with panicking. I say
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: to parents, if you're like a swan, you're really calm
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: up above the water, but you're panicking underneath. That's absolutely fine,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: But the child needs to know that you're got it
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: under control, you're confident, and you know what you're going
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: to do next. It's also important that you're not an interrogator.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: You're not questioning, because if you're I mean when I
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: say questioning, it's not who did it? Why didn't you
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: say something earlier that could really cause huge amount of
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: trauma to the child, more so than the actual trauma. Look,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: I've got a framework that's called be Karma, and it's
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: not rocket science. However, I know people need a structure
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: and they need predictability, especially with people that are dealing
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: with disclosures all the time. But again, if there is
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: a disclosure, being calm, believing, acknowledging and validating what you've
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: just heard is absolutely critical to start the healing process.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Great advice, John, I love the acronym, I love the
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: way that works. We could talk about this for a
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: long long time. Unfortunately this has a podcast for the time,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants answers. Now, if people want
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: to know more about your work and want to either
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: get in touch or at least get some more resources
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: because they've got some concerns, so they just want to
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: be across this, what's the best way for them to
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: do that?
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: For your listeners, if they want to go to johncartermone
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: dot com dot au. If they say I heard you
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: one justin Colson's Happy Families podcast, I'd be more than
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: happy to send my one pager on be Karma. So
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: becarma it all stands for something such as believe and
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: validate and so forth, so be more than happy to
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: send that to them. And it's just a great resource
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: to have. And you might think this will never happen
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: to you, but unfortunately want in four children today are
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: sexually abused and that's just what's reported.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: It's enough to send chills. Unfortunately we have to talk
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: about these topics because the world is not perfect. John,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: thanks for having this important conversation with us today. Really
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: appreciate you taking time out to be on the pod.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Justin, and hopefully your audience gets
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: something out of this conversation. Thanks again.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: That's John Cartermone. You can check out his website Johncartermone
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: dot com dot au. The Happy Families podcast is produced
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media and mmhabits provides additional
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: research and admin support. If you would like additional info
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: and resources to make your family happier, We'll link to
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: John's website so that you can contact him to get
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: that one pager and Happy Families dot com dot au
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: mm HM