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Toby Hadoke Interview - Anecdotes · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blump pen knife for doing quicker.
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  Quicker, quicker to hamster with a Blump at Knife, the Doctor Who
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  commentary podcast which is disguising itself as an
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  interview podcast Today I am here for Part 2 of the
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  magnificent Toby Haydokes interview.
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  Hello, Toby. Hello.
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  Why is anyone listening to this? But hello, especially after
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  last. The last one, I think.
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  I don't. I think I forgot to do any jokes
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  at all. Don't think.
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  I think you could listen to the last one and go.
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  She's supposed to be a comedian. But anyway, there we go.
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  This is going out during the 60th.
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  This is a celebration, God almighty.
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  Yeah, exactly. No, it was absolutely
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  fascinating. Do you know what, Do you know
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  what I said to share because I'm downstairs and cherily my
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  partner is upstairs. I've bagged the downstairs to do
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  this and I said she she said she watched, she watched telly
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  tonight. I said, oh, I'm doing a podcast
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  tonight. And she said, oh, is it those
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  one of those ones where you talk about Doctor Who for 17 hours?
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  And yeah, I think it's that's the one.
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  Yeah. And as I said to you off mark,
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  I've got words. So, you know, it's not partly
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  due to, you know, my lack of answering experience, and mostly
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  because it's compelling to listen to when in the same way
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  that a car crashes. Anyway, let's not get into what
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  What do you want to know? Very quickly just to say, right,
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  because I was talking to the fabulous Robert Valentine the
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  other day for one of us finished big and we were talking about
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  Ron and Elise from the purity, yes.
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  And we we did a big section on that because Mark and our
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  massive fans of that particular round of stories and.
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  He was basically saying how they were supposed to be kind of one
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  story shots or what was delivered was so good they
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  couldn't let those characters go and then they just became
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  instrumental. Like in that as it as it came
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  along so it's quite nice to be able to deliver that feedback to
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  you but that's very nice. I mean I I what happened Well
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  because what happened was they they came to me because they
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  were after Shirley and they said which you know we've we've got a
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  we've got a character who I think no I think they said who
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  would who would be a who would be popping up through that maybe
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  they didn't anyway they said we've got a we've got a
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  character we've got Ruth Ruth madely in as this you know wheel
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  wheelchair use a regular and we we we we need a you know we we
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  would like we've got this other character and would sherily be
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  interested in doing it could could you ask her so of course I
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  said yes and she went absolutely and she was very poorly she's
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  been very poorly since COVID actually but but but can it's
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  still working but has to have enormous amounts of rest and and
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  and at that time was was flat on the back for quite a lot of the
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  time but she could do stuff sort of lying down she said she's got
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  mobility issues various other things and and and I said well
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  yeah but I'll I'll kind of have to be there to do all the
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  because she done she did just done some episodes of The
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  Archers I think and had done something else which which had
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  all been done from from here because I'd worked out a way of
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  I'd bought some decent equipment and I'd I'd been doing the
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  podcasts and stuff and I've been I think doing my Radio 4 extra
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  stuff from here so I knew we could do it from from here so
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  she said yeah but I'll you know I'll have to do it from home and
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  a lot of but a lot of stuff was being done from home at that
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  point because it was it was COVID it was all everything was
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  being done from home pretty much I think so that that wasn't an
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  issue because that was that was the norm at that point anyway
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  and then I think Jack said look she's got this husband character
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  who's only in a couple of scenes you know it's not much but it
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  would you know do you want to do it it would make sense if you're
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  there and I was like yeah I'm fine I want you to sell a party.
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  Do it, do it, you know, may as well.
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  Why not? And then and then it sort of
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  dribbles you going. You might be in a scene in the
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  last scene of one of the later ones.
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  And then and then I think when Rob was doing his, I think he'd
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  said something. I think I might use Ron, if
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  that's all right. Yeah, fine.
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  Whatever. So yeah, Ron just sort of kept
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  coming coming back and actually got some quite nice bits to do
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  in in the end. But it was, it was originally,
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  it was, it was just it was just because I was there.
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  And it's funny, you asked me a question in the last one about,
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  you know, the parts I would like to have played and you know, I
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  said, oh, a cold villain. Or I said, you know Henry Gordon
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  Jago, the, you know, the very flowery thespie sort of actually
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  quite often the parts I get at the slightly ineffectual
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  annoying bloke. So I may see myself as this
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  florid theatrical type. But actually what I what I
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  project to a lot of casting people is I mean I the
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  Carruthers Somerton, which is annoying.
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  Which is annoying. Get in the J ago and Lightfoot
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  or or. I do get quite a lot of sort of
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  ineffectual husbands. But that started as like a germ
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  of a part, and then come out third set Jack Rayner's script
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  where you're there trying to rehearse what you're going to
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  say. To what?
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  As it turns out, Cheryl Lee Yeah, In an alternative
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  universe, it's just gold. And then you got the hit, that
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  bit that you love from other people in Doctor Who, you got
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  the hero moment in. Yeah, in the last story, you
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  know, I was punched in the air going gone to me.
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  Yeah, yeah, that was that was fun.
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  That was fun. It was, yes.
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  Ron, Ron, Ron. I mean he's the sort of
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  character that that that, you know Russell T Davis I think is
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  very good at and and that that always works very nicely in
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  Doctor Who is that is the person that may not be all that, but
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  when push comes to shove does better than you would expect
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  them to do. And I think that's quite a nice,
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  a nice thread that runs through a lot of Doctor Who is that is
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  that everybody's got it in them to to be remarkable with, you
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  know, just outside their own limitations.
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  We tell Robert the end of that that segment of the interview
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  that we demand. That those characters come back
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  in a future release. We were like, we got to the end
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  of that. You've got this fabulous series
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  of regulars around the six docs and now, right?
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  Well, I want my name on the cover of the next one then,
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  because we're ready on this one. Do I have to take a note of
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  this, Get my agent involved in that?
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  Tell you. But what we're actually here to
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  talk about in episode two of this glorious interview is I'm
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  basically looking to unearth some anecdotes you've worked
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  alongside. A lot of actors, creators in
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  Doctor Who and so I was basically just going to, I
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  wanted to ask you to because you and you share a lot of this on
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  your podcast as well and they're always wonderful stories.
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  I I'll never forget you talking about Jackie Lane on the train,
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  yeah. Which is actually, Can I tell
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  you that story? Yes, please.
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  Well, OK. I mean I I do kind of think I I
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  have a Doctor Who radar because I I do sort of spot people I
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  don't know if it's I'm you know I've I've quite often end up you
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  know Piccadilly station you know I've seen oh any number of
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  people I could pick them out from a crowd so Julian Glover
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  and Ida Blair getting on a train once.
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  Christopher Benjamin. I've seen at Piccadilly station
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  Colin Stinton who's the president in last of the time
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  laws. Ellie Huddington who's who's in
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  the the episode after that the professor lady.
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  I've seen them all on Manchester.
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  So I think I, I don't know if my radars particularly attuned to
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  to sort of picking picking people out.
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  And I and I think I don't know you again, you always think
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  you're the center of the universe.
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  But I quite often end up, you know, if I drop Doctor Who into
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  a conversation, somebody will go, Oh my, you know, my uncle
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  was in Doctor Who. And you know, I, I I don't know,
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  all roads for me seem to lead to Doctor Who.
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  And I was getting on the train from London to Manchester
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  Piccadilly, which was a regular journey for me at that point.
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  And I always used to head to Coach E because that was the
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  unreserved 1, so that I could get a table with a plug socket,
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  so I could set up my laptop and do a bit of work.
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  And I saw, and I always used to get really annoyed if somebody
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  got on Coach E in front of me and then divert because I'd get
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  stuck behind them and everyone would fill up from the other end
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  and I wouldn't get my thing. So I saw this person getting on.
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  Yeah. My end of coaching.
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  I was like, oh buddy, hell. And it was a small, small, yeah,
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  small small lady with a with a case.
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  And I went, oh Christ, I think that's Jackie Lane and and I got
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  on the train, so I didn't sit in my seat, the place I normally
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  go, because she was there and I thought, well, if it is her, I
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  don't want to be that guy. So I actually went and sat it
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  further up. I was so disco.
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  I got so nervous and discombobulated and I thought
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  and I looked and I said no, that's Jackie Lane.
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  That's definitely Jackie Lane. And I thought, and I've started
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  texting friends of mine go, and I think I'm on a train with
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  Jackie Lane. Railed like the nothing really
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  exists, does it? Well, it I, I I would have
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  dismissed the idea had I not known that Jackie Lane had roots
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  in Manchester. So it made sense to me that she
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  would be traveling to Manchester.
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  But I also knew, you know, she got this reputation of being
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  somebody you didn't want to talk about Doctor Who and stuff like
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  that. And of course, I've been
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  fortunate to meet pretty much everybody, you know, through
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  professional means not, you know, not not having to sort of
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  hang around or go to events or whatever.
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  You know, I've been brought into their orbit very, very
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  fortunately. But Jackie Lane was the one that
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  was, that was never going to happen with.
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  We tried to get her for DVD commentaries and failed.
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  So of all the people to be on a train with and I have bumped
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  into Sophie Aldred at at Euston Station actually.
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  But you know I've see Sophie many times but but Jackie Lane,
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  the Greta Garbo of Doctor Who and I wandered up and down and I
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  texted friends and I was getting and and my friend was going,
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  you've got to, you've got to speak to her, blah, blah, blah.
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  So I thought, well what I'll do is I'll wait till we've passed.
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  It wasn't Stockport. It was the stock before the one
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  that's about 20 minutes left because I thought then she'll
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  know she's not been cornered. She's not stuck for the whole
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  journey. Yeah she she knows that the
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  worst that this will be is 20 minutes and and I walked past
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  her about four times this sort of stuff and you can smell the
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  fear I get very I yeah. I Oh my stomach churns.
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  I I hate, I hated doing who's round because I I hate the
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  process of phoning people to organize and ask and and it
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  makes me feel physically ill. I've my the stuff that I've
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  done. I'm exactly the wrong person to
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  do because it causes me great distress.
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  I hate writing obituaries as well because of the time factor
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  and the fact that you have to phone up people and and get
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  things off them and you and you can't beat around the Bush
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  because you haven't got the time.
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  I'm entirely the wrong person to do any of the things that I do.
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  So anyway, I said. Earlier about permission.
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  So literally live asking permission.
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  Can I sit with you and talk to? Exactly.
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  Well, I said. Excuse me, but are you you are
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  you Jackie Lane? And she went, how did you know
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  that? I said, well I'm a Doctor Who
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  fan but I'm also, you know, I make documentaries for the DVD's
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  and I said Oh no, come come sit down.
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  And I chatted to her and and and I and again I played it like I
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  said a bit in the last one about, you know, I approached
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  Michael Allerby by going, oh, you know you probably wandered
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  away frankly. I sort of played it to to Jackie
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  as as kind of, you know, oh you you know, she she doesn't
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  remember that much and she's not that interested.
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  And she was exactly the opposite.
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  She was totally interested. She, she remembered the stories
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  and she was and and I said, oh, I said, and I said, well,
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  because you know, we, I know we've tried to get you for the
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  for the DV, DS And I said, you know, is it.
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  I said if it's that you're worried about doing it, you
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  know, we we, you know, we we'd come to you, we do it.
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  And she said, I've been in a television studio for 50 years,
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  so I wouldn't really enjoy it. I said, well, we, you know, we
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  could go to you and I and I tried a few different sort of
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  gentle things and she was, you know, she wasn't and she wasn't
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  rude. She didn't brush me off at all.
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  She was very, very polite but but kept sort of having excuses.
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  And then when I said, well, anyway, I'll, I'll, I'll I'll go
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  now. She said no, no, no, stay and
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  chat and she was really happy to talk, but I got the impression
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  she was actually the opposite to me.
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  She was quite happy to talk one-on-one, but anything else
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  she didn't really like the the idea of and she was totally
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  relaxed. She was totally open and game
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  about Doctor Who. She was delighted to have been
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  recognized. She was delighted to chat and I
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  got to sign a couple of bits of paper for me and actually we
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  then kept in touch a little bit over.
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  I got her e-mail address a bit, a little bit down the line
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  because when she did the bit for the 50th anniversary, I think
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  somebody there asked her. I think Russell Internet asked
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  her if she'd do a who's round and she said oh to Toby's
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  already asked me to do something and and so I was quite surprised
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  she remembered me who I was and bye bye.
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  But anyway I I got her e-mail so then I sent her things say could
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  could I send you a couple of things to sign.
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  And she gave me her address and and then I said well look if
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  ever you're coming to Manchester again you know I know you did
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  Cory back in the 60s we could we could take you back to Cory if
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  you wanted to go because some listeners might not know my my
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  my other half is a is a regular in in Curry and and she said Oh
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  no, I, you know she she demure it again.
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  I said oh but you know love to buy you a meal if you if you're
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  loose end whenever you're man. She said well I don't really
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  like going out to loud restaurants and and again she
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  wasn't being rude she wasn't telling me to F off because then
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  she was then saying oh but please send me this and please
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  ask me. So none of it was a brush off,
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  but I just got the impression that she was sort of shy and she
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  didn't go in for any of the usual things that you would do
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  to maybe make an actor more malleable or or chatty, but but
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  without being cold, dismissive or unpleasant.
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  So she was lovely, Jackie Lane, and as I said, I had a few back
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  and forth with her. I wish I'd been bolder now, but
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  I didn't like to bother her again.
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  I'd cast her in my head as somebody that was a bit shy and
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  didn't really want to know, so I didn't want to push anything.
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  Now that and of course when somebody's alive, you think of
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  them as being very present and I don't think of people like that
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  as being particularly old. But of course she was 80, I
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  think when she died. But but you think of them as
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  being around and and of course as soon as she died I thought oh
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  I wish I'd I wish I'd been a bit bolder there because she never
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  told me to F off. She never said she wasn't
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  interested. She just didn't want to do the
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  socializing thing and didn't want to do the recording thing.
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  But we could have probably chatted back and forth quite
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  amiably. And I and I could have maybe you
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  know got stuff out of her in in in in that way.
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  And had a, had a, had a had some kind of sort of relationship
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  with her in a way that I have had with quite a few other
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  actors that I've I've got to know, you know who, who, who I'm
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  on the Christmas card list of, you know.
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  Very strange thing, isn't it? Because we love Doctor Who and I
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  think we assume all actors want that kind of attention.
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  So I remember when Janet Fielding sort of dipped out of
• 16:07
  fandom for a bit and just said, you know, I'm, I'm distancing
• 16:10
  myself from all of this. And there was a sort of coldness
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  towards it. Like that was completely turned
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  around now. And I feel like the same thing
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  with Jackie Lane as well and and a few others as well that have
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  been a bit elusive. And I think we just, we don't
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  understand why you don't want to talk about this thing that we
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  love you. Well, I it's not.
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  I think it's. I think we sometimes
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  mischaracterize them not being wild about talking about it with
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  them hating it and thinking we're assholes when it's
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  actually nothing of the sort. She just, it just wasn't her
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  kind of thing. Really.
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  She did and and I think I did get the sense that you know she
• 16:48
  was a bit upset that she'd been fired by an as Lloyd and her and
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  and I think she'd said to Ed Stradley when he tried to
• 16:55
  interview her for the season 3 documentary that he did.
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  Look my two memories of the William Martin wasn't very nice
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  to me and and as Lloyd wasn't very nice to me and I I I don't
• 17:03
  want to the only things I say on a documentary to be two things.
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  I don't particularly want to say that I'm that I don't want to be
• 17:10
  the lasting impression that I give.
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  You know which was actually very decent of her because she was
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  only on the show for about 3 months.
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  Do you know what I mean? It's but but I yeah, I think I
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  think sometimes we figure we think it figures bigger in
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  people's lives than of course it might not have done that it
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  might because it's the center of our universe.
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  But also yeah, as I say a lack of interest in diving into the
• 17:35
  convention circuit does not mean they think Doctor Who shits and
• 17:38
  everybody who likes it's a prick.
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  But by the same token I think one also needs to get one is
• 17:46
  that you know I always feel like a sort of you know 4 lock
• 17:50
  tugging you know fan who people will think is you know has a
• 17:57
  nerve even emailing them. She was always happy to get an
• 18:00
  e-mail. It was fine, but I would always
• 18:02
  be really nervous about she probably wouldn't mind if I
• 18:04
  phoned her up but I would never have plucked up the courage to
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  say but but actually, you know if somebody sends me an e-mail,
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  I'm, I'm, I reply to an e-mail because I'm a person getting an
• 18:14
  e-mail and that's all somebody who's been in Doctor Who is.
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  It's just a person getting an e-mail.
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  But I think we build it up, of course, because we are fans and
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  therefore, you know there is a certain sort of subservience the
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  the, the, you know, the relationship is is of of
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  somebody who is an appreciator of the the thing that the person
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  has done. So it automatically changes the
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  dynamic slightly. Very strange thing.
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  Then when you go on to have a relationship with somebody where
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  it was that dynamic, and then you're sort of on a flat level,
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  then you know you're friends with that person.
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  Yeah, well, I sent a message to somebody from Doctor Who
• 18:49
  recently and said, oh, sorry to bother you.
• 18:51
  I hope you don't mind that. And I said, Toby, you're a
• 18:54
  friend of mine. You don't have to apologize for
• 18:56
  sending me a message and that was really that was really kind
• 19:00
  of them to actually say that that was very decent and
• 19:03
  generous. But I I think it's because I
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  always slightly recoil when I've heard other fans who've who've
• 19:13
  been in positions of you know, doing interviews or work with
• 19:16
  people being a bit pally with people.
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  I I don't like it when Doctor Who magazine calls Tom Baker Tom
• 19:23
  and Barry let's Barry. If I'm writing up an article
• 19:26
  about somebody for for a professional publication I use
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  their surname. You know they're they're not my
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  mates. They're the subject of my
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  interview or article. And I I I do and I found myself
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  doing it recently. I think because one gets used to
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  the way things are done. I don't know.
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  But I'm always uncomfortable when I hear Doctor Who fans
• 19:44
  talking about Tom and talk about it.
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  He's not your friend Tom. He's not my friend, you know and
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  I find that a bit Paddy. I'm a I'm a little bit more of
• 19:52
  the generation of or perhaps I don't know, not even the
• 19:55
  generation but of the the demographic where you are a
• 19:59
  little bit more of a of a of a capped offer.
• 20:01
  And and and I'm not saying it's it's it's in any way it's
• 20:07
  better. But it's more to my taste that
• 20:09
  there's a little bit of deference there.
• 20:11
  So I would always recoil, even if you know that that person who
• 20:15
  was a Doctor Who fan had probably worked professionally
• 20:18
  with. This Doctor Who person and has
• 20:20
  their phone number and so he's perfectly entitled to call them
• 20:23
  Tom and Liz and Katie or whatever.
• 20:25
  But I would always find it a little bit distasteful because
• 20:29
  it's like, no, you're a fan and they're the person from the
• 20:31
  show. And I I still have that.
• 20:34
  I I think there's there's there's still, I remember Pete
• 20:38
  Davidson saying an interview I could never really be friends
• 20:41
  with the Doctor Who fan. And I do kind of get that
• 20:44
  because their relationship with you is is is or his
• 20:47
  relationship, his relationship with us is based on us being an
• 20:52
  appreciator of his work, which which which I think can never
• 20:56
  quite mean that, you know, although his his son, his
• 20:59
  Soninlaw was a Doctor Who fad, but he became Doctor Who.
• 21:02
  So I think that's slightly different.
• 21:03
  But you know, I would always be I I would always be slightly
• 21:11
  embarrassed. Even though you know everyone
• 21:13
  from Doctor Who's very nice to me, I I I still, I I'm still
• 21:19
  feel a bit of an ass if I was to sort of be too pally, I think.
• 21:27
  I don't know, you know, I didn't know more.
• 21:29
  Approach to my approach. So I just imagine that I'm best
• 21:32
  friends of everybody in the entire world.
• 21:34
  So, so many people talk to me because I'm yes, but you're
• 21:39
  you're a person of a very sunny disposition.
• 21:42
  I'll try. It's all a mask.
• 21:44
  OK, well then let's. Move away from somebody who
• 21:47
  shied away from Doctor Who, the convention circuit to make
• 21:52
  perhaps the ultimate raconteur of the Doctor Who universe.
• 21:56
  Sadly no longer with us. Do you have any residing
• 21:59
  memories of Terence Sticks? I love Terence Sticks.
• 22:02
  I wish I I wish I I wish I could remember the the best memory I
• 22:08
  have of him. Which stands which, which sounds
• 22:10
  like I'm contradicting myself. He said something to me.
• 22:14
  Chicago once and again it alludes to what we were just
• 22:17
  talking about in the because I, I know that Terence and Barry
• 22:23
  hadn't wanted, he said. Calling them by their first
• 22:26
  names. Mr. Dicks Mr. Letts had not
• 22:30
  wanted. See I, I, I, I even contradict
• 22:35
  myself in what I've just said. Didn't want a moderator for the
• 22:39
  curse of Pentagon and the monster of Pentagon.
• 22:42
  Don't know why. I think they felt they could do
• 22:46
  perfectly well without, which is was not an unreasonable point of
• 22:51
  view. I'm kind of said so not in front
• 22:57
  of me, but I could tell something was going on because
• 22:59
  they took John Kelly to one side and there was obviously
• 23:01
  something going on. But actually Barry Letts was
• 23:07
  then because he was a very decent man, decent enough at the
• 23:10
  end of the day to say because that was the kind of guy was in
• 23:14
  front of everybody. I'd just like to say that, you
• 23:17
  know at the beginning of this we didn't think we needed a
• 23:19
  moderator and we we said so and actually you know, you've been
• 23:23
  really good and just said really, really nice things.
• 23:26
  But the fact that he did it sort of publicly as well was was was
• 23:29
  very kind and and then a few years later I was I was at a
• 23:36
  convention in Chicago with Terence and it wasn't a great
• 23:42
  time in my life. Yeah.
• 23:44
  Yeah. I wasn't having a great time in
• 23:46
  my personal life. Things were falling apart a bit
• 23:48
  so I was a bit vulnerable and but Doctor Who as ever was you
• 23:54
  know sort of gave me gave me solace and somewhere to be.
• 23:59
  And I and I and I loved going to those American conventions.
• 24:02
  And at the end of it I said, I said something to Terence at the
• 24:06
  last night sort of you know, glass of wine and you know curly
• 24:12
  sandwiches, shindig or whatever. And he said something along the
• 24:16
  lines when he went oh come on, because I I said something like
• 24:20
  you know it's been great And and he was kind of saying you know
• 24:23
  you've you've done well and you're good at this and and it's
• 24:27
  been something about how he'd seen me develop or come into my
• 24:31
  own or do a good job and so and and he said it and the way he
• 24:34
  said I'll come on like a sort of sort of mate slash mentor.
• 24:41
  And I I I had a little moment and I went to and and and and
• 24:46
  the person I was there with said to your cast yeah Terence Sticks
• 24:50
  just said something just made me cry and I wish I could remember
• 24:53
  exactly what it was but it was really nice and it was a sort of
• 24:57
  affirmation it was a kind of you belong here and you've done well
• 25:00
  and this you know and and and that's the man whose name was on
• 25:04
  the spine of the first books I learnt to read and all of that.
• 25:07
  You know he was Terence was a Terence was a great storyteller
• 25:13
  but he wasn't he was only interested in telling the story
• 25:15
  that he wanted to tell. And I I heard you talking about
• 25:20
  him on the the your your podcast today when you talk about you
• 25:23
  know any, so never let the truth get in the way of a good story
• 25:25
  and all of that. There's quite a few.
• 25:27
  There's a few Doctor Who people like that who've got the things
• 25:30
  that they want to say and you think oh all it needs is an
• 25:33
  interviewer like me to ask them something off piece and we will
• 25:36
  get to the real gold. Actually, no.
• 25:39
  They'll just still answer the questions that you want them to
• 25:43
  answer. And I and I tried with Terence a
• 25:45
  few times. I got a few bits and bobs, but I
• 25:48
  but he never really went off off on too introspective a tangent.
• 25:55
  You know he was a storyteller. He didn't take it all
• 25:58
  particularly seriously. He knew how to give good value.
• 26:02
  I did. My I mean, I've.
• 26:04
  I'm sure I've told this before. My my favorite Terence Sticks
• 26:08
  moment, and it's a slightly catty one, but it was terribly
• 26:11
  funny at the time, was when we were doing the invasion of the
• 26:15
  dinosaurs. I'm sure I've told this on yours
• 26:17
  and I told this on yours. Peter Miles.
• 26:19
  Peter Miles. Yeah.
• 26:21
  So that that was that was just so funny.
• 26:24
  Can I say the punchline? Because I remember it.
• 26:27
  Yeah. God, yes, Peter.
• 26:30
  Every golden word, and it was the fact he looked a bit like my
• 26:35
  nan when he said it. My nan had the habit of when she
• 26:38
  was being a bit of a beast, because she could be quite
• 26:41
  unkind. She'd sort of.
• 26:43
  Her bottom lip was quite a Venus Sharples he sort of thing.
• 26:47
  And Terence kind of did that every golden word, and then sort
• 26:51
  of clamped his bottom lip up. Honestly, the funniest thing he
• 26:57
  ever said to you on a on a recorded commentary is one word.
• 27:02
  Oh God, and you try to you piece together at the fabulous future
• 27:07
  Earth history of the John Pertwee era, the rise and
• 27:10
  decline of the Earth, Empire in colony in space, frontier in
• 27:15
  space, and the mutants he just went.
• 27:20
  Honestly, Toby fans. I mean, he was so funny.
• 27:29
  What? He was so funny.
• 27:30
  He's. I mean, we always love Robert
• 27:32
  Holmes's humor and Robert Holmes wrote good jokes and good
• 27:34
  characters. And I think we take Terence for
• 27:37
  granted a little bit because some of the jokes in the scripts
• 27:41
  that the Terence's scripts, some of the some of the gags in
• 27:46
  Fangrock and and and Robot are just superb.
• 27:50
  Five doctors, so many great lines everywhere.
• 27:52
  I've got lines from the five doctors every day.
• 27:56
  Yeah, decorate it. I don't like it, you know.
• 27:59
  Yeah. No, he's he's it was wonderful,
• 28:01
  Terence, I'm. I got to spend quite a lot of
• 28:03
  time with him and I liked him very much and I still can't
• 28:06
  quite believe he's he's no longer with us.
• 28:08
  I thought he he would be around forever.
• 28:11
  Well then let's move on to somebody else.
• 28:13
  I know you hugely admire and I think you don't wince.
• 28:18
  I think you you've put out the most detailed interview beyond.
• 28:26
  The Writer's Tale, which is a superb insight into a writer's
• 28:31
  mind. But Russ E Davis, That was a I
• 28:35
  mean, I don't know how long that was.
• 28:36
  It was five or six episodes, wasn't it?
• 28:38
  It was all day. It was a whole day.
• 28:39
  I still can't quite believe that happened.
• 28:44
  I mean I sent him an e-mail and he replied and said yeah, you
• 28:47
  know, I'll get back to you. And then no, he, I think he said
• 28:50
  e-mail me in a couple of weeks or something and then he emailed
• 28:52
  me back and said when are we going to do this?
• 28:55
  And so and and it ended up being the day after Web of Fear and
• 29:02
  went out on iTunes. Yeah.
• 29:05
  But also knackered. I mean I I did find myself I was
• 29:08
  and I was doing the Comedy Store that night, which is a big gig.
• 29:12
  It's it's never not a big deal when you're doing the Comedy
• 29:15
  Store because it's the most famous.
• 29:16
  It's the best club in the country.
• 29:18
  It's the most famous comedy name.
• 29:20
  You know, if you're doing it, you, you, you know, you know,
• 29:23
  you're, you're you're on top of your game, really.
• 29:25
  And there's plenty of other people queuing up to do it.
• 29:27
  So you've got to be good. And I think I've got to pick my
• 29:32
  kids up from school. But I, you know, he said I can
• 29:35
  do it Friday. And so I went, yeah.
• 29:38
  And we cooked him lunch and everything and he didn't know I
• 29:41
  was with Cheryl Lee. So we did it at her flat and
• 29:46
  and. Huge Corry fan, isn't it?
• 29:48
  Yeah, so, So she answers the door and he goes, oh, marvelous,
• 29:51
  I didn't know, you know, so. So that was quite fun for
• 29:55
  starters. I'm looking back at it now.
• 29:59
  I mean, I look back at all of who's round and go, I can't
• 30:02
  quite believe I did that. I mean, the majority of it was
• 30:06
  done when I was going through a divorce and I needed something
• 30:08
  to distract me. And so it was, you know, it was,
• 30:12
  it was quite handy, but it was also driven by, you know, a huge
• 30:16
  vacuum. And so it sort of makes sense to
• 30:20
  me, I suppose, that I I busied myself doing that.
• 30:22
  But but looking back at it now, I go, God, how did I find the
• 30:25
  time? Because I was still gigging.
• 30:26
  I was still touring. I was.
• 30:27
  And actually some of it worked out that, you know, the people I
• 30:31
  wanted to interview were nearby where I was passing through.
• 30:35
  So lots of lovely coincidences like that as well.
• 30:38
  But but Russell agreed to do it. And and which I'm stuck because
• 30:43
  we never met each other. I mean, I did.
• 30:44
  I only knew that he'd even heard of me because not long before
• 30:48
  that on the on the Green Death commentary that he does with
• 30:52
  Katie Manning on episode six, he name checks me and goes, oh,
• 30:54
  we're not going to do a thing like Toby Haydock does.
• 30:56
  You know, I did. I think I knew he'd heard of
• 30:59
  moths because I think it had to be it had to be okayed by the
• 31:01
  Doctor Who people. But I didn't think he he paid me
• 31:04
  any heed. You know, uncertainly that he
• 31:06
  would agree to be interviewed by me.
• 31:09
  But there was also part of me. It was like, yeah, but we've all
• 31:11
  seen Russell T Davis in be interviewed on Doc 2
• 31:13
  Confidential. So people aren't going to be
• 31:15
  that interested. People will be much more
• 31:17
  interested that I've interviewed a Ford.
• 31:20
  I've interviewed a Ford because nobody's interviewing Ford.
• 31:22
  A joke about that. You made a joke about that on
• 31:24
  the Rusty Davis where you're going.
• 31:27
  For those people that are only listening to these episodes,
• 31:31
  I've also interviewed a Ford and others.
• 31:34
  And do you know what like although all the the smaller
• 31:37
  parts and the director and things like that, they were
• 31:39
  amazing insights of people that I'd never heard interviewed
• 31:42
  before. This was big though like for me
• 31:46
  this interview was big and it was different because I think on
• 31:52
  Confidential that that whole sort of everything's marvelous
• 31:55
  persona is is market in the show.
• 31:58
  Of course it is. There was some sort of scathing
• 32:02
  honesty at times in your interview, which I really liked.
• 32:06
  Yeah. If I had my time again I'd do it
• 32:08
  better and I'd ask some different questions about
• 32:09
  different bits. But of course I've never met him
• 32:12
  before and he's so charming and and I and somebody recently said
• 32:17
  that's a really good interview you know and I've I've God, I
• 32:20
  haven't listened to. I can't listen to myself and
• 32:25
  I'll I'll have to take that as read.
• 32:27
  I mean if it is a good interview it's not because of any
• 32:29
  particular probing I did. I don't think, I think he's a
• 32:32
  very nice man and I think he he responded very nicely to me.
• 32:36
  He's very generous. He doesn't he makes you not feel
• 32:39
  like you know he's a giant of television and I'm a I'm a lovey
• 32:46
  with an iPhone you know I'm a I'm a I'm I'm, I'm an Anorak
• 32:49
  with a Tascam. And he didn't make me feel like
• 32:52
  that. He he he made me feel he, he
• 32:54
  made me feel as though I was worthy of talking to him.
• 32:57
  And he's he, he has that great quality of making you feel
• 33:00
  special, you know, special which shows in his writing as well.
• 33:04
  He's a great example to us, I think.
• 33:06
  But by the same token, and I would say this to him now, he
• 33:14
  like Terrence Dix, wasn't going to, you know, was it?
• 33:17
  Was it going to answer questions he didn't want to answer?
• 33:19
  If you listen to that interview. But at one point I asked Russell
• 33:24
  if there's if there's any stories that he didn't think
• 33:29
  work or he would do differently and he's quite gently he goes,
• 33:31
  Nope, no, it's all fine. Now I'm sure that's not true,
• 33:34
  but that's all he was going to tell me.
• 33:36
  There was the even though it sounds like it's candid in
• 33:39
  places, I I think he charmed me into not asking any difficult
• 33:45
  questions. I think there are questions to
• 33:47
  ask about even though I I don't agree with this point of view
• 33:52
  but to but it was in the air and it's worth talking about.
• 33:55
  About the gay agenda for example about the Deus Ex machina
• 33:59
  endings that a lot of his scripts got stick for a good
• 34:02
  interview. A proper interviewer not not a
• 34:05
  lovely with an iPhone. I would have paxmaned him on on
• 34:09
  on that and tried to sort of go well let's let's talk about that
• 34:12
  stuff and I and I didn't. I love loving monsters.
• 34:15
  I don't like the paving slab at the end.
• 34:18
  I don't buy it. I think it's a it's a chink in
• 34:21
  the armor of a story that otherwise I think is one of my
• 34:23
  favorites. And I and I really wanted to
• 34:25
  talk to him about that because I don't like the ending.
• 34:29
  And and I asked him about it and I and I end up not saying that
• 34:33
  and in fact I end up I think say Oh yeah, and it's great because
• 34:36
  it's sad enough and it's not what I did.
• 34:38
  I I wanted to talk to him about why I thought that was a bit in
• 34:42
  the story, that I didn't buy the logic of and and tonally it
• 34:46
  seemed to me an odd way to do it and I didn't believe in it
• 34:49
  outside of the episode. And he's a man who can take
• 34:53
  stuff and he respect that. He's respectful of other
• 34:55
  people's opinions. But he's so charmed me and
• 34:58
  disarmed me and I don't think he was.
• 35:00
  This wasn't deliberate. It's not.
• 35:01
  It's not, it's not Machiavellian or anything like that.
• 35:04
  But he's such a disarming and charming person that he made me
• 35:07
  not want to do it. It's very clever.
• 35:11
  I don't want to challenge you on your own interview.
• 35:14
  Because you were there and you put it out and you went to there
• 35:17
  and you obviously listened to it.
• 35:18
  But sort of the whole thing about the gay agenda, he got
• 35:21
  passionate. He got angry talking about that.
• 35:23
  Oh, did I did I bring that up? That OK.
• 35:25
  Yeah, and I was really. I think I've listened to it.
• 35:28
  I haven't listened to it. I've.
• 35:29
  Really sat out? No, no, no.
• 35:30
  Because he and he says, you know just how he really drives home.
• 35:34
  The point of how little representation there is OK.
• 35:38
  And also like, so you know what, I want to challenge you.
• 35:41
  Again, I'm so sorry about this in your own interview.
• 35:46
  When he's talking about all everything, you know, all all
• 35:48
  the episodes are great. He does give a great argument
• 35:51
  when he talks about the Idiot's Lantern.
• 35:53
  I remember that. And he's going, this was, this
• 35:55
  was like the only piece of Doctor Who that came out after
• 36:00
  the TV movies. We just did one hour.
• 36:02
  We just put this one piece of television out.
• 36:06
  It would be lauded. Everyone would be celebrating.
• 36:08
  Everybody would say this is a fantastic piece of Doctor Who.
• 36:11
  It's only the fact that it's surrounded by these giants in
• 36:15
  that season. And he really made me look at
• 36:18
  sort of the episodes are written off.
• 36:19
  He's such a smart fellow, isn't he?
• 36:21
  He really is. I I think he's an amazing man
• 36:25
  and he's very, he's very kind. I think he he obviously has to
• 36:31
  be made of steel as well. You know you can't be a
• 36:34
  television executive without being, but he he he just the way
• 36:43
  he dispenses his time. He's obviously committed to the
• 36:46
  cause because because of course I also know him from another
• 36:49
  angle through the the the stuff that he does that's related to
• 36:52
  my partner's work because she set up a charity and and and a
• 36:58
  group to increase the awareness and employability of disabled
• 37:02
  people in the television industry.
• 37:04
  And you know he was one of the 1st and biggest people to lend
• 37:08
  clout and help and do zoom chats and give time and all sorts of
• 37:14
  other stuff. You know, he puts his money and
• 37:16
  his time where his mouth is, but I, I but he's you know, he
• 37:22
  replied. I sent him an e-mail about
• 37:24
  something trivial about a month ago, about something he may or
• 37:29
  may not have worked on in the 90s and he sent me a lovely
• 37:32
  e-mail back. And it's not just answering the
• 37:34
  question but a chattiness in there as well and bloody bloody
• 37:37
  blah. And you know, he's he's, he's
• 37:41
  one of the biggest figures in the whole of television and I've
• 37:44
  met him three times, you know, but he doesn't go.
• 37:48
  Why you e-mail. You know why.
• 37:50
  I mean I ration when I e-mail people.
• 37:53
  I I hope, I hope I'm you know, I hope.
• 37:56
  I know not to be be bothersome but nonetheless he could just he
• 38:00
  could have just not replied he's and he's I think he's a I think
• 38:04
  he's a remarkable man and and actually in in in lockdown
• 38:08
  looking back at his Doctor Who and and I I did a lot of Russell
• 38:12
  episodes in in lockdown by God again well I think we I think we
• 38:18
  got used to how good it was so bloody quickly that that
• 38:21
  watching it all through again go my God as you say even the kind
• 38:24
  of average episodes the bar is so high you know an average
• 38:31
  episode is still a damn good episode.
• 38:35
  Cast any shade on what came afterwards.
• 38:37
  I'll say this for another podcast.
• 38:39
  I went back and I watched Daleks in Manhattan and Evolution of
• 38:42
  the Daleks, a story I've written off in the past and had so much
• 38:46
  fun with it. It is deliriously enjoyable, you
• 38:50
  know. You know.
• 38:52
  No, I'm not going to make comparisons.
• 38:53
  That's not fair. Okay.
• 38:55
  Well then, can I spin us back into the classic series to talk
• 39:01
  about an actor I know you admired greatly and that's
• 39:06
  Bernard Kay. But I believe you knew quite
• 39:10
  well. And I certainly know you did
• 39:12
  commentaries or a commentary with him.
• 39:15
  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I did.
• 39:16
  I know him that well, I think. Yeah, I suppose.
• 39:18
  I I suppose I did. I I again, it was when I got
• 39:23
  quite nervous when I I put John Kelly under a lot of pressure to
• 39:27
  get Bernard on the Colony in Space Commentary because I loved
• 39:32
  his work and and I really wanted to I really wanted to meet him.
• 39:35
  I mean for me a lot of the the reason I will do a Doctor Who
• 39:39
  project for very little money is because I feel like I'm I'm
• 39:43
  getting you know professional access to to to to people whose
• 39:47
  work I've admired. So you know that's my payment if
• 39:50
  you like. And and so I I did.
• 39:55
  An unusual thing is that I I photo stated all the pages from
• 40:00
  running through corridors where I say really nice things about
• 40:02
  Bernard Kay's performances. Because I knew I'd written, you
• 40:05
  know, quite length about what I admired about his work and I I
• 40:12
  stuck it in a I. You know, I stuck it in a in a
• 40:17
  in a in an envelope and I think I'd said, you know, I'd love to
• 40:22
  meet you for lunch or something. You know, it'd be, it'd be great
• 40:25
  to, you know, to meet you out outside.
• 40:28
  I think I must have done that because we did.
• 40:31
  And but I I waited to do that till the end, you know, Again, I
• 40:36
  didn't want that hanging over us during the thing.
• 40:40
  But we did go outside at one point during during a break and
• 40:45
  he got out a hip flask which had done phytic in it and profited
• 40:49
  me a bit. And I felt very grown up and
• 40:53
  obviously he'd identified me as somebody who.
• 40:56
  And we had that in common so that we could both put it away.
• 41:00
  I mean he never even got hangovers, but I can put it
• 41:03
  away. He could put more away as I was
• 41:06
  to discover. And and then he emailed me when
• 41:11
  he got home, having read my stuff and said, oh, that's
• 41:15
  really nice. Thanks.
• 41:16
  Yeah, brilliant. Let's do that.
• 41:17
  So we arranged to meet for lunch, and the morning, the day
• 41:20
  we were meeting for lunch, I got up and I was just about to get
• 41:23
  in the shower and leave. And the Guardian rang up and
• 41:27
  said, is it true that Michael Goff's died?
• 41:30
  And I will. Oh yeah, I think so.
• 41:32
  They said, oh, well, we've got an obituary ready to go.
• 41:34
  That's all about his stage and his film work.
• 41:36
  But we haven't really got anything about his TV stuff.
• 41:38
  Can you know about his stage work?
• 41:40
  Can you do stuff about his TV and film you know 250 words for
• 41:44
  5 minutes ago so fuck okay. So I did that in a you know in
• 41:48
  about 25 minutes because I should have been going then and
• 41:53
  then I you know and then I had a quick chat and then I jump
• 41:55
  jumped something and I was I was sending the Guardian corrections
• 41:58
  on the tube on my phone. I got a year wrong or something
• 42:01
  like this. And so I was, I think I was a
• 42:04
  little late for Bernard, that he was fine about it.
• 42:07
  And then we had lunch and oh, did we?
• 42:17
  Yeah, we had. Yeah, that's right.
• 42:20
  We had, we had lunch. And I got home about midnight.
• 42:28
  And the problem is, I had quite a few meetings with Bernard and
• 42:33
  I don't. And he told me some great
• 42:34
  stories, but I'm not sure I remember it.
• 42:38
  Condition. Were you in at the end of those
• 42:40
  meetings? Yeah.
• 42:41
  Well, exactly. And but also Fraser Hines came
• 42:48
  to stay at our flat in London And.
• 42:52
  And so I and I mentioned this to Bernard and said, you know, do
• 42:55
  do you want to. And and I know.
• 42:57
  And I knew Fraser had liked working with Bernard.
• 42:59
  They worked together on Emmerdale as well.
• 43:01
  And so I emailed Bernard and he said, Oh yeah, but do me a
• 43:04
  favor, don't tell Fraser I'm coming.
• 43:06
  So we, I said to Fraser, you know, we're having dinner
• 43:09
  tonight, you know, because he was, he was often about doing
• 43:12
  stuff, but he was going to be in and we're going to have dinner
• 43:14
  that night. And and Bernard came round.
• 43:16
  And so we had a great, great dinner that night.
• 43:19
  And again, Catherine, my then wife, had had something the next
• 43:23
  day, so she went to bed early. Fraser went to bed, and Bernard
• 43:26
  and I stayed up with a bottle of Scotch and talked into the
• 43:30
  night. And I don't remember any of it,
• 43:32
  but he. Best anecdote you've ever had
• 43:36
  there. Of course.
• 43:37
  Yeah. But he left me.
• 43:39
  We talked about, I know we talked about writing and he used
• 43:40
  to be a reporter. And I have a little black
• 43:42
  notebook that he left me saying, you know, a good writer should
• 43:46
  always have a notebook. And I've.
• 43:47
  I've still got that, you know, so you should always be writing
• 43:51
  stuff down. And he did that.
• 43:54
  And so we stayed in touch and he'd come out and I'd beat him
• 43:57
  for drinks sometimes and. And yeah, he said he, you know,
• 44:03
  he he, he sort of liked my company and I, which which was
• 44:06
  nice, I found very flattering. He was quite I, you know, I
• 44:09
  think I I gave him a pass because I admired him.
• 44:12
  So he he could be quite. I made the mistake of
• 44:15
  occasionally meeting him with some other people and then I and
• 44:20
  I sort of saw him out other sort of he could be quite sort of
• 44:22
  grouchy and quite cantankerous. His sense of humor was a bit
• 44:25
  sort of pernickety and a bit push, and I could see, and I
• 44:30
  could suddenly see how he might winds people up the wrong way.
• 44:33
  You can hear it on The Colony and Space Commentary because
• 44:38
  he's bringing the director to task by going that.
• 44:41
  That is rubbish. There.
• 44:43
  Yeah, you know I'm in that car. I've given him the gun.
• 44:46
  Why would I do it? And he tells off Kate you
• 44:48
  manning a couple of times and he's like but you know what I'm
• 44:50
  like I'm getting a real sense of who he is and and but he's also
• 44:53
  being charming and amiable and and he's very knowledgeable
• 44:55
  about it as well. Yes I think I'd have forgiven I
• 44:59
  I I have not forgiven those that sort of yeah I remember him
• 45:02
  saying that's rubbish. And the the thing about the
• 45:04
  machine gun you go, why are you worrying about that?
• 45:06
  That's he could be a bit pernickety and I would be less
• 45:09
  forgiving of that in somebody else, I think.
• 45:13
  But he was also extremely well read.
• 45:14
  He was also quite vulnerable. You know, a lot of that bravado
• 45:19
  was he had a terrible child. That was the other thing He sent
• 45:23
  me his autobiography, which was never published, because he he
• 45:29
  stopped writing it. But he was a brilliant writer.
• 45:31
  He he had been a writer. He'd been a reporter.
• 45:34
  The Bolton Evening News and and he sort of stops writing his
• 45:38
  autobiography just as it gets to the acting bit which would have
• 45:41
  been the bit that might have got him through some publishers but
• 45:44
  he he he'd won a prize from the guardian writing prize for the
• 45:46
  first chapter of it but he got writing agent and then I think
• 45:50
  he was difficult and but but particularly he struggled to
• 45:53
  write about his his marriage to Patricia Haynes because he he
• 45:59
  loved her and she died of cancer in 1977 and he never got over
• 46:04
  that but he also had this terrible childhood his his
• 46:09
  mother committed suicide his father was committed to an
• 46:12
  asylum and he was brought up by his grandparents and he had a
• 46:15
  terrible Abscess in his tooth when he was a kid the the men
• 46:19
  that he had to stay indoors for ages because even light affected
• 46:23
  him and all and he and he and he was a I think like a lot of men
• 46:27
  of that generation. I think he was a he had a lot of
• 46:31
  stuff going on underneath that he'd probably not sometimes
• 46:34
  never been able to articulate or had articulated it through
• 46:37
  bravado and alcohol. And he was a complicated man.
• 46:44
  A lot of a lot of, well, I think people are complicated.
• 46:48
  So. So again, maybe I was forgiving
• 46:50
  of some of his bits. As I say, it was only when you
• 46:53
  introduced him to somebody you'd never met him before that you
• 46:55
  suddenly said, oh, he can be a bit, it can be a bit tricky.
• 47:00
  And I can see. So for example, Bernard Holly,
• 47:02
  who was also a friend of mine. And Bernard Bernard was a
• 47:04
  lovely, gentle, much less complicated fellow.
• 47:08
  Didn't like him, didn't, didn't like him.
• 47:10
  I could you could tell that they were oil and water.
• 47:13
  They did not mix. Bernard Kay's sense of humor did
• 47:16
  not chime with Bernard Hollie's. I think.
• 47:20
  I think Bernard Kay saw a conversation as a as almost a
• 47:24
  bit of a joust, whereas Bernard Holly just wanted to chat.
• 47:30
  And I have sympathy with both. Your answer is something that
• 47:32
  you said to me on a previous hamster commentary and that is,
• 47:36
  it's almost a shame now because when people do commentaries or
• 47:40
  or introduce documentaries there, there's such a sort of
• 47:43
  towing of the company line and sort of actors of that
• 47:49
  generation. There was a bit more
• 47:51
  eccentricity, there was a bit more difficult as you could.
• 47:53
  Your personality could flourish a bit more.
• 47:56
  It's a bit more interesting to listen to.
• 47:59
  Yeah. Well let's do a load of
• 48:00
  commentaries for 21st century Doctor Who in about 30 years
• 48:03
  time and we'll we'll see. We'll never just got anything to
• 48:07
  lose. But yeah Bernard.
• 48:10
  Bernard was a Bernard. Yeah.
• 48:12
  But I I'm and he was very kind to me.
• 48:15
  I did my who's round with him when I I was and he'd been you
• 48:18
  know he'd obviously been to mine and Catherine's house and when
• 48:20
  we met up with the who's round I said I'm you know I'm not living
• 48:22
  at home anymore And he actually offered that I could stay in his
• 48:26
  spare room which was very kind of him.
• 48:30
  I I didn't I I was staying with somebody else but and he was you
• 48:36
  know for all his toughness he was actually very sweet that
• 48:40
  during during that and I'm yeah. As I say I think I was probably
• 48:46
  more forgiving of him than I might have been if had I not
• 48:50
  admired him so but I, you know, I I I consider myself very, very
• 48:56
  fortunate to have to have had a chance to talk to somebody whose
• 48:58
  work I admired. And and you know he was he was
• 49:01
  very humble about his his you know, his his work.
• 49:05
  He was surprised that anybody knew who he was was actually he
• 49:07
  was he was a an admired member of the profession.
• 49:11
  And actually I I am quite proud of the fact that his death was
• 49:15
  mentioned on the BB C's midnight news.
• 49:18
  And that was because when I found out that he died I thought
• 49:22
  I don't want this to be overlooked.
• 49:24
  And I I did a press release. I got in touch with Reuters
• 49:27
  Reuters and the Press Association then got in touch
• 49:29
  with me and and and all the stuff that was then reported in
• 49:32
  the papers was quotations from that which I'd essentially put
• 49:35
  together for them. And he was on the midnight news
• 49:37
  and he got and he and he got he got covered in a few of the
• 49:40
  papers actually and and and and I know that that was that was
• 49:46
  down to me So I I feel. I feel I did a good thing there.
• 49:48
  I'm, I'm, I'm, I mean it doesn't mean anything.
• 49:51
  He was dead, so it wouldn't have made any difference to him.
• 49:54
  But there's something about it being marked that that was
• 49:58
  important for me and I'm glad I was able to do that.
• 50:03
  Well then the the. Last, because I've got a few
• 50:05
  questions about actors and obituaries, actually.
• 50:12
  So the last person I'm gonna ask you about is a particular
• 50:14
  favorite of mine who I know you've with on occasion.
• 50:21
  And I know, I think the first time you met him, it was one of
• 50:24
  the most touching stories I've heard.
• 50:26
  That's Colin Baker. Do you know what he's?
• 50:31
  You know he was the first Doctor I met.
• 50:33
  I've I I must have told this story.
• 50:36
  I've heard it on happy times and places and it's glorious story,
• 50:39
  so it's worth repeating. So Colin was touring a
• 50:43
  production of Corpse, which was a farce in which he played
• 50:47
  twins. I've seen it in Eastbourne,
• 50:50
  right? Was was was He skewered to the
• 50:52
  drinks cabinet. Now that's the other part.
• 50:57
  He has since toured it playing the.
• 50:59
  Other part. That's the one I saw.
• 51:01
  So when he first did it, he was playing the younger part and
• 51:04
  Jack Watling. Jack Watling was playing the the
• 51:08
  the the guy who gets skewered. So it was starring Colin Baker
• 51:11
  and Jack Watling. I had a chance to get Jack
• 51:15
  Watlin's autograph and I didn't stupid for.
• 51:17
  Cruel business, Toby. The older you get your part
• 51:19
  shift. Yeah.
• 51:20
  Well, that's it. Yeah.
• 51:21
  Oh, God, yes. I mean, you're talking to the
• 51:23
  guy who's was delighted to be in Mark Gatiss, Christmas Ghost
• 51:28
  Story last year, but the part I played was called The
• 51:31
  Grandfather. To be fair, it was in flashback,
• 51:35
  but nonetheless, you know, I was some I I was to become that
• 51:39
  person's grandfather, but nonetheless last on my CV it
• 51:41
  says the grandfather. That's a nod to Heidi by the.
• 51:44
  Way never be time cast or but so so we went to and I went to see
• 51:51
  with a I had this older friend called Derek.
• 51:53
  He's still a friend of our family.
• 51:55
  He was just sort of handyman that did stuff.
• 51:57
  But he he took an interest in me.
• 51:58
  He was very kind and and and and would sort of drive me around to
• 52:02
  places and when he was doing working with vamps he dropped me
• 52:04
  off at a comic shop called the Place and he or if he was you
• 52:08
  know he would he would get me videos and Doctor Who videos and
• 52:10
  stuff. Just a just a nice man who I
• 52:13
  think realized that there was this this kid that that that
• 52:16
  that you know was a bit of a loose end in the middle of
• 52:20
  nowhere. So he, you know, he would, he
• 52:24
  would, he would pick up Pyramids of Mars if he saw it cheap
• 52:27
  somewhere. And he was just kind.
• 52:30
  And so he came with me and my mum to see this play in
• 52:34
  Wolverhampton. He drove and and you know, I
• 52:40
  knew that you could meet actors at the stage door, but I didn't
• 52:43
  know what that meant. And so my friend Derek, who's
• 52:47
  you know, he was a grown up, he was in his, you know, he was 40
• 52:49
  or whatever and I was 13. And so we went around the back
• 52:56
  and we walked through this door, which I've since discovered was
• 52:59
  not. The stage door is the official
• 53:01
  sort of exit and entrance for performance.
• 53:03
  And there is an edit. You know, there's somebody that
• 53:05
  Mans the stage door. It's not just a door you walk
• 53:08
  through, you sort of knock on and there's a receptionist there
• 53:10
  they I'd let you in or not or you wait outside the stage door
• 53:13
  for for the actors to exit. That's how that works.
• 53:16
  That's what. I did when I saw Colin Baker.
• 53:19
  So I waited outside the station. Well, we walked in through what
• 53:23
  was, I think, you know, the the sort of the tradesmen, the props
• 53:27
  entrance, you know, slightly big metallic door that that big
• 53:30
  skips go in and out of, you know, so, So yeah, it was some
• 53:33
  sort of, you know, props egress. We walked through that and ended
• 53:38
  up on the stage of the play. No, during the performance I
• 53:44
  heard no, no, no, this is though no, this is and and this stage
• 53:48
  running goes, oh, can I help you?
• 53:50
  And my friend said Derek, bless him, said yes.
• 53:53
  So we we're it'd see Mr. Baker. And she said, oh, is he
• 53:56
  expecting you? And he said yes, which of course
• 53:59
  I would never have done any of this.
• 54:01
  And she knocks on the door and says Colin and he goes, yes.
• 54:04
  And then she says, these people hello, hello, come in and
• 54:07
  totally welcomes us in chat, sign things.
• 54:11
  Couple of pictures. I've got the you know, the
• 54:14
  pictures. He's, you know, he's just pretty
• 54:15
  sure he's sweaty from the performance he's but you know
• 54:17
  he's still in his own zone, his own area.
• 54:20
  It's not it's not usual unless you're you know, mate of the
• 54:23
  actor or whatever, to be to be in the dressing room.
• 54:26
  Even if mates of mine come to see me to show they, you know,
• 54:29
  they wait outside till I come out.
• 54:31
  And he was so nice. And then I said, you know, I
• 54:34
  want to write a Doctor Who fanzine and could I interview
• 54:36
  you? Bloody bloody.
• 54:37
  And he said, yeah, yeah, come, you know, come before the show
• 54:39
  on Wednesday or whatever. So we got there.
• 54:41
  So we went then before the show the following week.
• 54:45
  And I can hear him on the tape. You know, this Mr. Baker, this
• 54:48
  is your half hour call, he said, which means you've only got
• 54:50
  about 5 minutes, you know, 25 minutes later, Mr. Baker, this
• 54:53
  is your 5 minute call. He's got a massive costume to
• 54:56
  put on. You know, he's in drag for that
• 54:58
  makeup and stuff. At the beginning of the.
• 54:59
  I didn't know any of this. But he's he literally, you know
• 55:05
  he should have been on stage when I go and I got did not get
• 55:09
  that from him at all. He didn't hurry me.
• 55:11
  He wasn't flustered. He was so nice.
• 55:15
  It gives a brilliant interview. Jack Watling does come in at one
• 55:18
  point so I've got a little bit of Jack Watling on tape so oh,
• 55:21
  I'm terribly sorry. And and and so lovely and I've
• 55:27
  seen him be great with kids ever since I think he's I think he's
• 55:32
  a model in how to be and and a real example of of of of how to
• 55:38
  make you know a most memorable part of my life.
• 55:42
  The first Doctor Who I ever met and it couldn't have been better
• 55:45
  and I'm very very grateful to him and of course I've since you
• 55:48
  know got to work with him and and consult with him and and
• 55:51
  he's always and he's always you know very lovely and but but but
• 55:58
  nothing will I think nothing will ever top that because he
• 56:03
  was there was a benevolence and a kindness to him that I hugely
• 56:08
  admire and am grateful for and can never be taken away.
• 56:12
  He's got great memory as well, you know, I saw him one year at
• 56:15
  a phantom convention and he flirted outrageously with me and
• 56:18
  we had a picture of the pair of us sort of minced into the
• 56:21
  camera. And then the next year he was
• 56:24
  like, come on, let's up our game.
• 56:26
  And he gave me a kiss on the cheek.
• 56:27
  And I think I'll be married to him in a few years, working back
• 56:30
  to these conventions. He's so charming.
• 56:34
  He is. He's really nice.
• 56:36
  He's really nice. My first doctor, How lovely.
• 56:40
  So, yeah, very lucky. Yeah, he's great.
• 56:47
  So then I'm going to ask you a couple of questions now then
• 56:50
  about actors. So John Hall asks, who do you
• 56:55
  consider the biggest one that got away?
• 56:58
  In other words, Doctor Who actor or crew member that you had an
• 57:02
  opportunity to interview, but for one reason or another one
• 57:05
  unable to do so before he or she passed away.
• 57:09
  Well, this happened a few times because quite often somebody
• 57:11
  would say, oh, you know, can you get back to me?
• 57:14
  Which means can you get back to me?
• 57:16
  But because I'd already plucked up the courage once, I then felt
• 57:19
  like I might be bothering them again.
• 57:20
  So. So I I got a lovely
• 57:22
  questionnaire back from Christopher Wray, who's PC Groom
• 57:25
  in the Demons and also one of the submariners in the Sea
• 57:28
  Devils. And he he was a really
• 57:30
  interesting guy because he had a very famous light shop called
• 57:33
  Christopher Wray. It was called Christopher Ray
• 57:36
  one in London and one in Manchester.
• 57:38
  So what an interesting career to go for being a sort of small
• 57:41
  part actor to being the name of a shop.
• 57:44
  And I would have loved that story And he's and I and I
• 57:46
  called him and he said Oh yeah I'm I'm actually about to do a
• 57:49
  deal so could you call me in a few weeks And of course I said I
• 57:51
  would. I didn't because I'd I felt
• 57:54
  having done it once I don't know it was almost like oh if you
• 57:56
  haven't agreed straight away my own.
• 57:59
  It's all my own doubts and thoughts, my own demons and and
• 58:06
  so and then I read he, you know, his obituary in the Telegraph
• 58:09
  went, oh bugger. But the one I got I got very
• 58:13
  close to was a guy called Christopher Burgess who is Swan
• 58:16
  in Enemy of the World, Professor Phillips in Terror of the
• 58:20
  Autumns and Barnes in Planet of the Spiders.
• 58:23
  Really good actor with a lovely sort of broken quality about
• 58:26
  him. And he was in the same old
• 58:30
  people's home as a guy called Robert Aldous, who is the
• 58:34
  insurgent in episode one of the Dalic invasion of Earth.
• 58:37
  And I talked to Bob about, you know, he said Christopher
• 58:41
  Burgess here, but but not very well.
• 58:43
  He's got emphysema and I think, but but I said, oh, I'd love,
• 58:47
  you know, I'd love to get the opportunity to chat, to chat to
• 58:49
  him. And he said, oh, I don't know if
• 58:51
  he'd be up for it because he's, you know, he's not he's not
• 58:53
  great. And then Bob sent me things
• 58:55
  saying amazing. Yeah, Christopher said he'll do
• 58:57
  it. So brilliant and I was it was
• 59:00
  the summer holidays night got my kids so I said well okay I'll be
• 59:03
  I'll be back in touch about that you know in a in a few weeks And
• 59:08
  then Bob sent me an e-mail and said you know bad news I'm
• 59:10
  afraid Christopher's. Christopher's passed away so I I
• 59:13
  mean I got the impression I it would have been more a lovely
• 59:17
  chance to meet him than to have got anything horrible word I've
• 59:20
  just about to you got anything useful out of it in the same way
• 59:23
  that I you know I think my Jeffrey Bale did interview is is
• 59:27
  fairly light on content it it was it was more that I was I I
• 59:31
  was lucky enough to spend an afternoon in the company of
• 59:33
  Jeffrey Baildon but you know he was a very old man by by then
• 59:38
  and I and I think Christopher Burgess had emphysema and I
• 59:42
  think had had dementia but nonetheless even if all it had
• 59:47
  meant that was I gave a nice afternoon to an old man who was
• 59:51
  a who was a bit vague but like to visit her that to me is a
• 59:56
  little bit of payback for all the hours of pleasure that these
• 59:58
  people have have given me So sometimes it's just nice that
• 1:00:02
  and sometimes it's just nice when you go away and go oh that
• 1:00:05
  you know they're pleased that somebody is interested and so
• 1:00:10
  you know I I I quite enjoy that element of it sometimes but yeah
• 1:00:14
  I there was a so there was a few like that like Christopher Ray
• 1:00:17
  and and Christopher Burgess all the Christophers who who I.
• 1:00:22
  The trail went cold with a little bit.
• 1:00:24
  I went, I went back and forth with with a few other.
• 1:00:27
  I went back and forth atomic bulk a few times and it never
• 1:00:30
  happened. You know, you get less.
• 1:00:34
  I get less worried if it was somebody that's been interviewed
• 1:00:36
  by somebody else as well, because I feel like what I was
• 1:00:39
  trying to do with who's round a lot of the time was to to mop up
• 1:00:44
  people that had we'd missed on the DVD's or or, you know, not
• 1:00:49
  spoken about Doctor Who on record or something.
• 1:00:52
  So that's why I didn't tend to do designers because Phil Newman
• 1:00:55
  had already done such a good job getting all of the designers and
• 1:00:58
  the one that I did get, Malcolm Middleton, had not talked to
• 1:01:01
  Phil. So I, you know, I'd kind of
• 1:01:03
  thought, well, he's not going to talk to me, but he's the uncle
• 1:01:07
  of somebody I know and only vaguely though it's Mark Morris,
• 1:01:11
  the writer Mark Morris. But he, Mark said my uncle did
• 1:01:15
  the avulnerable stone. And I thought he's not gonna say
• 1:01:17
  yes because he's never said yes in the past, but because it came
• 1:01:20
  via Mark, suddenly, you know, there's no rules to this.
• 1:01:25
  Suddenly somebody who said no to everybody else.
• 1:01:27
  And it's happened the other way around.
• 1:01:29
  I know people who've said no to me that have been happy to be
• 1:01:31
  interviewed by Alex Moore or Ben Jolly or some of the others.
• 1:01:34
  So I'm not saying that I have any special code.
• 1:01:38
  It's it's sometimes different circumstances.
• 1:01:40
  I know Paul Shelly had said no to me because he'd been asked by
• 1:01:44
  a friend of a friend and then somebody else asked Paul Shelly
• 1:01:47
  and he said yes. And it was within about a month
• 1:01:50
  of each other and both totally independently.
• 1:01:53
  And one time he said no cuz he didn't want to do that sort of
• 1:01:56
  thing, and the other time he said yes cuz he fancied it or
• 1:01:59
  whatever. Literally we down to the day
• 1:02:00
  they're having, yeah. But I was pretty, I was pretty
• 1:02:07
  lucky. There are I think there are
• 1:02:09
  people that I would have obviously loved to have to a
• 1:02:14
  video with Quatermast. It was particularly frustrating
• 1:02:16
  because I I, you know, I wrote to a lot of the Quatermast
• 1:02:18
  actors but only if I saw their names in the Radio Times or an
• 1:02:21
  artists and Agents yearbook that I have to have bought from a car
• 1:02:24
  boot sale or if they were in something.
• 1:02:27
  And and and and the rest I assumed were dead because
• 1:02:30
  Quatermast was so long ago and then you know some of them only
• 1:02:32
  died within the last you know 10-15 years and and and were
• 1:02:36
  there, you know ripe for the for the plucking.
• 1:02:39
  But bear in mind a lot of that was pre the Internet age.
• 1:02:42
  So you have to go with you know what, what was out there.
• 1:02:46
  But there there are plenty that got away.
• 1:02:49
  And I in my I sometimes lie awake at night and think what
• 1:02:53
  could have been what could have been was probably just a nice
• 1:02:55
  letter but there we go. I'd still.
• 1:02:58
  I still feel like I I missed out.
• 1:03:00
  I feel like I missed out on Jack Watling because I what would
• 1:03:02
  I've got his autograph that made me feel any better.
• 1:03:04
  But I do feel sometimes John Ringham I worked with, well, I
• 1:03:08
  was at the Royal Exchange Theater and he was in the play
• 1:03:11
  after me and I actually copied over all his Doctor Who's onto a
• 1:03:15
  VHS that I was going to give him.
• 1:03:16
  And then the Aztecs came out on DVD at the same time and he's
• 1:03:19
  interviewed on that and I thought, oh, what he's done,
• 1:03:21
  he's done a Doctor Who interview and and I am an actor now.
• 1:03:24
  So I felt I'd perhaps come across as a bit of a fan if I
• 1:03:28
  asked him to sign some of my Doctor Who stuff or.
• 1:03:31
  And I'd love John Ringham signature in my stuff.
• 1:03:33
  Again, what difference does it make a notch on the bedpost?
• 1:03:37
  I don't know. But I I think I would feel
• 1:03:39
  better. But why would I feel better?
• 1:03:40
  So I could show off to people. It's a weird trinket but
• 1:03:43
  nonetheless. So I I go through all of this
• 1:03:44
  stuff. But I did, I did meet him
• 1:03:46
  because he was friends with somebody in the cast of mine.
• 1:03:48
  And I I said, oh, yes, pleasure to meet you.
• 1:03:50
  I like your work, you know, bloody blah and shook hands and
• 1:03:52
  said hello. But that's all I have to show
• 1:03:54
  for my encounter with John Ringham.
• 1:03:56
  Would it be any better if I had anything more tangible?
• 1:03:59
  Well, he might have liked it if I'd said nice things to him
• 1:04:01
  about his acting because I thought he was a great actor.
• 1:04:03
  So I might have, I might have give you know you find that most
• 1:04:06
  actors are as I say quite happy to talk.
• 1:04:08
  So I'm not giving him a nice day.
• 1:04:09
  Perhaps that's the way to frame it to have gone oh that's a
• 1:04:11
  shame that I missed out on on making an old actor feel happy
• 1:04:15
  and wanted but but but that it was yeah, that was sort of
• 1:04:19
  slight professional conceit. I was going well.
• 1:04:21
  I'm not a Doctor Who fan. Now I'm an.
• 1:04:23
  I'm an. I'm an actual.
• 1:04:24
  Actor I mean, I'm in loot at the Royal Exchange.
• 1:04:26
  I I don't know. Well, I could have been both of
• 1:04:28
  those that you know, I could have been both of those things.
• 1:04:31
  I could have been in loot at the Royal Exchange Theater and also
• 1:04:35
  said to John Ringham, can I buy you a coffee and talk to you
• 1:04:38
  about your career? Because I'd really enjoy that.
• 1:04:41
  And he would have probably enjoyed that too.
• 1:04:42
  And we were in the same orbit for, you know, a month and that.
• 1:04:45
  So that was a wasted opportunity too.
• 1:04:47
  We'll say whilst you are lying in bed and thinking about the
• 1:04:51
  ones that got away, it's definitely worth remembering all
• 1:04:55
  of the ones that you've navigated around and it's an
• 1:04:57
  extraordinary number, yeah, but now I think of all the things I
• 1:05:00
  should have said or shouldn't have said.
• 1:05:04
  You're that person. I'm not.
• 1:05:05
  Yeah, I'm. I'm constantly running away
• 1:05:08
  from. But I'm too scared to ask you
• 1:05:10
  the next question. Oh God.
• 1:05:13
  Because there's another one that got away.
• 1:05:15
  Joe Short. The lovely Joe Short asks.
• 1:05:18
  Is there anybody you would have loved to have written their
• 1:05:21
  obituary but didn't? Well I mean I remember getting
• 1:05:27
  very cross with the Guardian because they got I think
• 1:05:32
  somebody from the Catweasel fan club to write Jeffrey Baildon's
• 1:05:35
  and and they didn't and and this made me actually quite crossed
• 1:05:39
  because it said he survived by his sister which I think it said
• 1:05:44
  but it didn't mention anything to do with his partner, the
• 1:05:47
  actor Alan Rowe who is skin sailing horrifying rock and
• 1:05:50
  bloody bloody blah. And I ranked Diana God you know
• 1:05:54
  I emailed her and said can you put you need to put a thing in
• 1:05:57
  Jeffrey Belder saying he was he had a 50 year relationship with
• 1:06:01
  with Alan Rowe and they said Oh well well well we were consulted
• 1:06:05
  with the Cat Wes Appreciation Society.
• 1:06:07
  I said yeah people who are interested in and I've
• 1:06:10
  discovered this when writing overts of people from you know
• 1:06:13
  things like Blake Seven or The Avengers.
• 1:06:15
  People from the fan club are interested in the show and
• 1:06:19
  that's it. You say do you know where they
• 1:06:21
  served in the army never bothered asking them that.
• 1:06:23
  The questions I asked them start when they cast in the program
• 1:06:26
  and then when they finish in the program.
• 1:06:28
  You know, and no, that's not necessarily to their ditch, but
• 1:06:33
  the world always think you should be interested in, you
• 1:06:36
  know, surely the whole thing is that broadening horizons anyway.
• 1:06:39
  But it doesn't matter. I'm not going to, I'm not going
• 1:06:41
  to criticize people for enjoying a thing in the way that they
• 1:06:43
  enjoy it. And I know what it's like to
• 1:06:44
  have tunnel vision. But for me it felt a bit it it
• 1:06:51
  felt a little bit more unconsciously prejudiced than
• 1:06:56
  that that they wouldn't miss a wife act you know to be because
• 1:07:00
  it was a because it was a gay man and a long term gay
• 1:07:02
  relationship. Now the Guardian is not a
• 1:07:04
  homophobic newspaper. It's a very liberal that free
• 1:07:07
  newspaper. But but but the whole.
• 1:07:09
  But the whole situation arose from I think I'm not casting
• 1:07:14
  aspersions on the person that gave them the information but
• 1:07:17
  why did nobody why did nobody mention you wouldn't not mention
• 1:07:22
  a long. Term period.
• 1:07:26
  That's great to celebrate. And then there is and the
• 1:07:28
  response to that they said well you could write a letter in
• 1:07:31
  pointing that out and I said I'm not writing a fucking letter in
• 1:07:34
  because it's not my business and you know it's the the ship has
• 1:07:37
  sailed and I'm I'm not correct. I'll correct your mistake for
• 1:07:40
  you. But if you if you want to put it
• 1:07:41
  in corrections and clarifications but I'm not not
• 1:07:43
  writing a letter in that seems wrong.
• 1:07:44
  So it just sort of fizzled away and they they didn't seem
• 1:07:47
  actually that bothered. And I was I was quite angry
• 1:07:49
  about that because I saw that as well.
• 1:07:53
  One, it was bad work. It was poor work.
• 1:07:55
  But two it was it was as a result of oversight and
• 1:08:01
  thoughtlessness And then when it was brought to their attention I
• 1:08:03
  yeah, I just wasn't happy about the whole situation.
• 1:08:05
  And I I felt sometimes you know you you miss out on doing one
• 1:08:09
  and you go oh, I wish I'd got the chance to do that just
• 1:08:12
  because it would have been nice to have done it.
• 1:08:15
  I quite, I quite often miss out on SO because there's another
• 1:08:18
  chap, Anthony Haywood, who I think tends to be their first
• 1:08:21
  choice. Actually, Anthony, he's a proper
• 1:08:23
  journalist. So when he did Michael
• 1:08:25
  Ferguson's I I I was a bit disappointed because I knew
• 1:08:28
  Michael, do you know what I mean?
• 1:08:29
  But actually, and actually I I think Anthony emailed me and
• 1:08:33
  said can you give me details about Michael Ferguson.
• 1:08:35
  That's how I found out Michael had died.
• 1:08:37
  And I was like fuck have they asked you because I knew him.
• 1:08:40
  I yeah, I'll tell you all of this, but I actually know this
• 1:08:42
  so I should be writing it. But, you know, and Anthony was
• 1:08:45
  asked, he got first, and I was really upset about that,
• 1:08:48
  actually. But then Antony's was published
• 1:08:50
  and it was really good. And you go, well, no arguments
• 1:08:53
  then that's fine. Antony's done a good job.
• 1:08:55
  He's a fine obituist and journalist.
• 1:08:58
  I just felt a bit, I felt a bit sad.
• 1:09:00
  I missed out on Michael's and Ken Westbury's and and felt,
• 1:09:03
  yeah, felt a little bit. That's a shame because I knew
• 1:09:07
  you know I'd interview Ken as well so that was that was more
• 1:09:11
  on a personal thing but but certainly no animus to Anthony
• 1:09:14
  and Anthony's been very helpful to me when I've done something
• 1:09:16
  he might well have liked to have done.
• 1:09:18
  But he's he's very good at the digging out some of the he's
• 1:09:22
  he's much more journalistic than I am he's he's got ways of
• 1:09:25
  finding out about what people's parents did for a living that
• 1:09:28
  are that are that are alchemy and he's always totally there's
• 1:09:30
  never any sense of well no you're doing that one you you
• 1:09:34
  find out mate and we and we and we share stuff with each other
• 1:09:37
  but I do I do get the impression that that he's he's their first
• 1:09:40
  choice and I I tend to be as either if it's Doctor Who or if
• 1:09:44
  that today's on holiday or or if he's already done it for the
• 1:09:47
  Telegraph because he writes for them as well whereas I wouldn't
• 1:09:50
  I wouldn't write for the Telegraph.
• 1:09:52
  But anyway, I mean, regardless of the why, it's still an
• 1:09:56
  incredible honor to write here. But so that, yeah, there is
• 1:10:03
  honor amongst obituaries. But I was very sad that Dell
• 1:10:07
  didn't get one. Dell Henny, I wrote one for him
• 1:10:10
  for the Herald and I think Anthony wrote his for the
• 1:10:14
  Telegraph but the Guardian turned, turned him down.
• 1:10:18
  They also turned John Bennett down because you have to sort of
• 1:10:21
  pitch and they either they either say yeah or no.
• 1:10:26
  And sometimes their choices of who they accept and who they
• 1:10:29
  don't baffle me. So I was quite pleasantly
• 1:10:34
  surprised when they accepted Stephen Thorn, who I pitched and
• 1:10:37
  thought, well, they might not go for him because they didn't go
• 1:10:39
  for. I can't remember the Order now.
• 1:10:41
  But you know, having not gone for Dell, I think because Dell
• 1:10:43
  was maybe famous for pecking par and pecking Par's quite
• 1:10:46
  misogynistic. And I and I I wonder if the
• 1:10:49
  Guardian is sort of going well. You know he's famous for, you
• 1:10:52
  know the Susan George seen in and Straw Dogs and you know.
• 1:10:57
  You know. You know.
• 1:10:59
  Yeah. So there's an element of that
• 1:11:01
  that they were slightly sort of askance at.
• 1:11:03
  But I thought Dell an actor of his stature deserved a guardian
• 1:11:06
  of victory. And I was quite and and and
• 1:11:08
  Clive Marison asked if I was doing one.
• 1:11:09
  I said they've turned me down and Clive actually emailed them
• 1:11:13
  and I think got quite stroppy with them and he said that
• 1:11:15
  they'd they told him that they weren't doing it because they,
• 1:11:17
  you know, there's there's limited space but then they'll
• 1:11:21
  ask me. They asked me to do Susan Farmer
• 1:11:23
  who was a, who's a Hammer actress.
• 1:11:25
  She's in one of the Blake sevens who didn't have a massive
• 1:11:27
  career, but I think they have far more obituous pitched for
• 1:11:32
  white men. So if so if somebody is a woman,
• 1:11:35
  you're more likely to get one, even if you've not had as good a
• 1:11:38
  career as the man. Now I can see why that would be,
• 1:11:42
  but I can also see that there is certain injustices that happened
• 1:11:44
  there as well. So it's a it's a it's a tricky
• 1:11:47
  one. But you at the end of the day,
• 1:11:50
  they're the publisher. They publish who they want.
• 1:11:52
  I I tend not to pitch to them anymore because I find them
• 1:11:54
  quite stressful to do. I know that Anthony will do a
• 1:11:58
  good job anyway and that it's it's his living and so I tend to
• 1:12:04
  now only do it if they ask me and and unless it it.
• 1:12:11
  I mean I knew John Nettleton quite well but he had such a
• 1:12:13
  good theatrical career. I knew Michael Coveney he was
• 1:12:16
  the you know proper theatrical historian type would would get
• 1:12:20
  that and Coveney to Clifford Rose as well who I who I knew a
• 1:12:23
  little bit. So you know I'm just I'm
• 1:12:26
  realistic about it and but but but then they asked me to do you
• 1:12:30
  know one of Hinge and bracket who I didn't know at all.
• 1:12:33
  They did ask me to do the chuckle brother who died as well
• 1:12:35
  but I was very busy at that time and and I and I turned it down
• 1:12:39
  because that you know I'd have to have done a lot of research.
• 1:12:42
  The research is a killer because you have to do it in 24 hours
• 1:12:46
  and you have to and that first paragraph where you find out you
• 1:12:49
  have to find out the parents names because of the guardian
• 1:12:51
  style parents names what they did for a living where they were
• 1:12:54
  educated brothers and sisters all that sort of stuff.
• 1:12:58
  At the end of the day I, I, I subscribe to birth marriages and
• 1:13:01
  deaths and and all the records and all that but they're
• 1:13:03
  incomplete and quite often people aren't there and and So
• 1:13:08
  what you end up having to do is phone a member of the family but
• 1:13:11
  you're phoning literally just after the news of somebody's
• 1:13:14
  death's been announced. So if God if it's nerve racking
• 1:13:16
  ringing an actor that was in Doctor Who once and asking to
• 1:13:19
  take the Frick up. To you.
• 1:13:20
  Yeah. I'm.
• 1:13:22
  I'm ringing morning. But of course, actually 99% of
• 1:13:26
  the time they're really happy that their person is getting a
• 1:13:29
  guardian of itchery and they're really, really helpful.
• 1:13:31
  But that's not what it feels like at my end.
• 1:13:33
  And again, I get cold sweats, I get very nervous.
• 1:13:37
  I get very stressed. So I'm I'm glad when they're in
• 1:13:39
  and when they're done. Well, I'm not really, because
• 1:13:42
  then I worry that people will point out mistakes or go oh, did
• 1:13:46
  you don't forget this And you're like, I'm forgot it.
• 1:13:48
  I've got 800 words, you prick. So I I I hate looking at, you
• 1:13:54
  know, never read the comments. So I find it all very stressful
• 1:13:57
  but but I know because I get lovely responses.
• 1:14:01
  I know that generally the the the the people that I do them
• 1:14:06
  that are left behind are very happy with what what I've done
• 1:14:09
  because I I like to I think be slightly more appreciative than
• 1:14:13
  the than the guardian sometimes go I think they prefer something
• 1:14:16
  that's a bit sort of colder and objective but I I try and do at
• 1:14:20
  least a few lines that that are are slightly more.
• 1:14:25
  Yeah have a have a more of an appreciative tone than a than a
• 1:14:29
  than a purely cold you know stone cold objective obituary.
• 1:14:35
  Because I wouldn't be writing about people if I didn't admire
• 1:14:37
  them you know. And actually I was quite pleased
• 1:14:39
  because they did quite a sniffy one about Peter Wingard and and
• 1:14:43
  I nearly wrote to them and said that was I didn't like your
• 1:14:47
  Peter Wingard 1II. And I thought it was it was a
• 1:14:50
  bit unnecessarily unkind and actually they got such a bite
• 1:14:53
  back from that from people that they then and I because I
• 1:14:56
  thought I don't want to get cross with.
• 1:14:58
  I don't want to have a row with them.
• 1:14:59
  There's no, no point, forget it, leave it, It doesn't matter.
• 1:15:03
  There's no point in in in leaving any rank or somewhere
• 1:15:05
  because you'll only piss them off.
• 1:15:07
  And I sat on it and I didn't. I was really proud of myself for
• 1:15:11
  not doing that because at 5:00 that afternoon they emailed me
• 1:15:15
  and went. We've had loads of negative
• 1:15:16
  feedback for our Peter Wingard one.
• 1:15:18
  Could you write a response to it that cast him in a slightly
• 1:15:21
  better light? So I got to do what I wanted to
• 1:15:23
  do anyway without sort of emailing them and being cross
• 1:15:27
  with them. So now, yeah, I tend to wait for
• 1:15:32
  them to come to me. But I would have liked to have
• 1:15:35
  done. Yeah, I thought.
• 1:15:37
  I thought Dell deserved one. I thought John Bennett deserved
• 1:15:39
  1. Back in the day.
• 1:15:40
  I did write one for Robert James and they were gonna run it.
• 1:15:43
  I'm gonna run it. And then they didn't because
• 1:15:46
  they. So I actually spoke to his
• 1:15:48
  widow, but it never appeared she was an actual school.
• 1:15:50
  Mona Bruce, who was in loads of stuff as well.
• 1:15:54
  But, yeah, Dell's. But of course, you know, like I
• 1:15:59
  said, it doesn't matter to them. They're they're dead.
• 1:16:02
  And actually most people, you know, give it a glance in the
• 1:16:07
  newspaper, close the newspaper and forget about it.
• 1:16:09
  But for, but for me, it's something that sort of it's a
• 1:16:12
  marker, it's indelibly there, but of course it's not really
• 1:16:16
  and it's not really that important.
• 1:16:19
  But I think it's you may not appreciate it.
• 1:16:22
  Well, I think it's wonderful that that you think that and
• 1:16:25
  that you want to mark that and that you will get angry if
• 1:16:28
  that's not there. So my very last question then
• 1:16:32
  for this episode is from the intriguingly titled Messed or
• 1:16:38
  The Magnificent. I like Messed or The
• 1:16:40
  Magnificent. We have had Twitter exchanges.
• 1:16:43
  I'm not sure what his questions are going on about because I
• 1:16:46
  think the information is there, but I mean his byline is if
• 1:16:49
  anyone knows, it'll be Toby, yes, the.
• 1:16:53
  Question is not necessarily. Whatever happened to Brian Hales
• 1:16:59
  when he died of a heart attack in 1978?
• 1:17:03
  Just before? Because the moon stallion is
• 1:17:06
  often talked about as being Sarah Sutton's, you know, first
• 1:17:11
  Major Bake Through Telly, and it was written by Brian Hales what
• 1:17:14
  nobody mentions. It was actually broadcast after
• 1:17:17
  his death and he was from the West Midlands.
• 1:17:23
  He had to beard. Terence Dix always said he was
• 1:17:26
  very affable. But yeah, he was.
• 1:17:27
  Don't they call him a gentleman writer in Doctor Who, a
• 1:17:30
  celebration. That's what Jeremy Bentham
• 1:17:32
  describes as he was. It was it was funny because when
• 1:17:35
  if you were a Doctor Who fan of a certain age, when when Doctor
• 1:17:38
  Who, a celebration came out, you suddenly realized that all those
• 1:17:43
  people whose books were on your shelf, David Whittaker, Malcolm
• 1:17:46
  Hulk and Brian Hales were dead. And it and it, and I think it
• 1:17:51
  set you up to think that everybody involved with Doctor
• 1:17:55
  Who was dead apart from Terence Dix and Barry Letts, when of
• 1:17:58
  course they weren't at all, but because those.
• 1:18:00
  Love to have met Ben around Ben Arolevich, you know, But it was.
• 1:18:05
  It was so, you know. In 1983, when Doctor Who was 20
• 1:18:09
  years old, one was given the impression that, you know, more
• 1:18:12
  than likely if somebody worked on Doctor Who in the black and
• 1:18:15
  white days, they were dead, you know, and I assumed everyone
• 1:18:18
  from Quatermast was dead. And as I mentioned, you know,
• 1:18:20
  actually loads of them lived far longer than than than I would
• 1:18:24
  have thought were expected. But of course they weren't at
• 1:18:26
  all. But when you're how old was I in
• 1:18:31
  1983 when you're 9, you know, people who did things in the
• 1:18:34
  black and white days were ancient and of course people
• 1:18:36
  looked older. Then you look at those photos of
• 1:18:38
  David Whitaker, who died at 52. So you know where he's got that
• 1:18:43
  white tear and he looks like a, you know, a a a hungry vampire.
• 1:18:48
  You know, he's probably he's younger than I am now.
• 1:18:51
  You look at William Hartnell when he took the role and you're
• 1:18:53
  looking at Paul McGann now, who is older.
• 1:18:58
  Yeah. Night and day.
• 1:19:01
  Yeah. So and and you know, I I
• 1:19:02
  remember thinking, you know, you would, you would read those
• 1:19:05
  names and and and I remember thinking, you know, people like
• 1:19:07
  Dennis Spooner and Ennis Lloyd, you know, they must be ancient.
• 1:19:11
  So of course when they died you were like, well, I'm surprised
• 1:19:13
  they were still alive because they weren't.
• 1:19:15
  And then of course, you look back now, Dennis Spooner, I
• 1:19:18
  think was 55 when he died. Ennis Lloyd was 6264.
• 1:19:22
  None of these were old men when they died, but they seemed to me
• 1:19:25
  to be old men. You know, you're sounding like
• 1:19:27
  now, Tom Baker in that Cesar Doom commentary where the fella
• 1:19:30
  comes on and he goes, oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were dead.
• 1:19:33
  I said you were dead in episode one.
• 1:19:36
  And then at the end, when he chips out this, this act.
• 1:19:38
  Come on, his name is it Kenny? Is it Ken Gilbert?
• 1:19:41
  Yeah, yeah. He goes right off.
• 1:19:43
  She'll proceed to die now. So when you tell people I'm dead
• 1:19:45
  in the future, the facts will be straight.
• 1:19:48
  He was. He was one I would have liked to
• 1:19:50
  have interviewed, but he was. He was because I love his
• 1:19:52
  performances. Mr. Dunbar.
• 1:19:53
  He was a good friend of Brian Miller, actually.
• 1:19:55
  But, but no, I missed it. I missed out on him as well.
• 1:19:58
  But again, I, I, I took my foot off the clutch slightly because
• 1:20:02
  because he was on the DVD. And once somebody was on the
• 1:20:04
  DVD, I thought, well, you know they've they've been got in a
• 1:20:06
  way. Do you know what I mean?
• 1:20:09
  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why I think, look I
• 1:20:13
  can't have been. Yeah, I can't have.
• 1:20:16
  I can't interview everyone. But you have interviewed an
• 1:20:21
  incredible amount of people and I'm sure anyone listening is
• 1:20:25
  extremely great, especially you know the who's round where those
• 1:20:29
  effectively went out for free with and I and I know donations
• 1:20:35
  flew in especially for that Rossi Davis one.
• 1:20:38
  Yeah, yeah. Russell actually dropped me a
• 1:20:39
  line and said that, you know, the Terence Higgins Trust had
• 1:20:42
  been in touch and said they'd had a spike in donations, which
• 1:20:45
  is lovely. Well yeah people would give me
• 1:20:48
  their time I thought I I I overcomplicated it actually
• 1:20:53
  because one you know I I I didn't know how to put stuff out
• 1:20:58
  so I was dependent upon Big Finish and and and sort of
• 1:21:01
  beholden to them and their schedule and I'm but it was it
• 1:21:04
  was very nice to be under their umbrella but I do look back and
• 1:21:07
  go why didn't I have the confidence to do that myself and
• 1:21:10
  it's confidence thing. I didn't.
• 1:21:11
  I didn't feel I would be legitimate.
• 1:21:13
  You know what I mean? Absolutely could have been
• 1:21:16
  something of its own, couldn't it?
• 1:21:18
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, which. But, but I mean, I don't have a
• 1:21:23
  problem with the association with Big Finish is a is a nice
• 1:21:26
  one and and and and you know, having it housed on their
• 1:21:30
  website brought attention to it and all of that sort of thing.
• 1:21:32
  But I do, I do wish I'd had a bit more confidence in my in
• 1:21:36
  myself, really. I never used to do stuff.
• 1:21:40
  A lot of the stuff that I've done, I've always.
• 1:21:42
  I directed stuff at university, but I got a mate to do it with
• 1:21:45
  me and then I ended up doing it all myself.
• 1:21:47
  But I didn't. I I felt I had to I had to do it
• 1:21:50
  with someone and I and I adapted 1984 for the stage but I did it
• 1:21:54
  with my mate. But actually then he went off
• 1:21:56
  drinking and smoking and I I did it.
• 1:21:59
  But I've, I've always, I've always, I've never.
• 1:22:02
  Yeah, I always seem to seem to need need to sort of have my
• 1:22:08
  coattails on. On something else to legitimize
• 1:22:11
  something I'm doing and I'm I need to.
• 1:22:14
  So that's why these podcasts would be quite good.
• 1:22:16
  As I've finally done something, I was just about to say that,
• 1:22:20
  you know, yeah, entirely your voice.
• 1:22:23
  But by the same token, I do wish you know.
• 1:22:26
  I think too much information and indefinable magic are
• 1:22:28
  interesting enough. Well too too much information
• 1:22:31
  picky would be a great BBC podcast and then at least
• 1:22:34
  somebody else could edit it and source clips and you know put
• 1:22:37
  music on it and all of of that sort of thing but and then I
• 1:22:41
  wouldn't have to do everything myself and and also that would
• 1:22:44
  that would certainly get it more listeners and and that sort of
• 1:22:46
  thing So I think yeah so there is a there is a downside as well
• 1:22:50
  but I'm yeah no I I don't know why I went off on that Yeah I
• 1:22:57
  think it just. Yes.
• 1:22:59
  It was interesting that I felt I had to I I had to have somebody
• 1:23:02
  else put it out for me when when I could have just put it out.
• 1:23:07
  But then again, the fact that it's on the Big Finish page with
• 1:23:10
  all their other releases and it and it means it's out there and
• 1:23:12
  it means it's people can download it for free and it's a
• 1:23:15
  resource that people can use and it's a lovely memorial for a lot
• 1:23:18
  of people that are no longer with us.
• 1:23:21
  I think it's really lovely. You know, they'll always be
• 1:23:22
  there and those, those, those people will always sort of live
• 1:23:26
  for those. And occasionally you get, you
• 1:23:29
  get relatives of people going on.
• 1:23:30
  I didn't even know this was this was there and that's my granddad
• 1:23:34
  or that's my, you know, I didn't know my dad had done that.
• 1:23:36
  And it's really lovely to hear him.
• 1:23:39
  And well, thank you for the interviews, thank you for the
• 1:23:45
  anecdotes. I feel as if we've celebrated
• 1:23:47
  some of the greats of we barely scratched the surface, but you
• 1:23:52
  know, we've got a finite amount of time here, but we we
• 1:23:55
  certainly have celebrated some of the greats.
• 1:23:58
  We'll be back for the third part of this interview if Toby's not
• 1:24:03
  too tired, where we'll be talking about we'll be touching
• 1:24:08
  on podcasting again, quater, mass running through corridors,
• 1:24:11
  documentaries. And it's going to be entirely
• 1:24:14
  told don't wince through questions that have been thrown
• 1:24:19
  at me from mostly the hamster audience.
• 1:24:22
  But also here's a little enticing one people, you work
• 1:24:25
  for. God, Toby, thank you very much.
• 1:24:30
  It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Joe.