Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / A Conversation on Cultural Appropriation on the Competitive Stage

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A Conversation on Cultural Appropriation on the Competitive Stage · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact Advanced Composition Podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Making the Impact A Dance Competition Podcast has always been committed to the education and inspiration of dancers and dance bands.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Today's episode focuses on educating listeners on the topic of cultural appropriation and dance.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Join us alongside dance educators Tracy Boone and Richard Yoder as we discuss the importance of understanding the differences between appropriation and appreciation on the competitive stage.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Thanksgiving.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Thanksgiving, Courtney.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Thanksgiving! Yay! Happy Thanksgiving to all of the dance families out there.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you're having a lovely day and spending time with your loved ones and eating delicious food and maybe going shopping later tonight.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I always love to go shopping on well, maybe not along Thanksgiving night, but you know how they always push the deals earlier and earlier and earlier.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they start them at like three o'clock and people are still eating dinner, but you gotta go to Best Buy and get a TV.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm talking about?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's I have a lot to be thankful for.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have anything to be thankful for, Leslie?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so many things.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can walk unassisted now.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So thankful for the doctors at NYU and my physical therapist, and just thankful that I'm gonna get back to dancing, hopefully, this time next year.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yay.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what about you?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I very much hope that you do, and that the surgery was a success.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: That is fingers crossed.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thankful to be back doing what I love.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that 2020 was, you know, a gap year, a year that just made us all realize that things can be taken away from us so quickly.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And something like performing on a stage or even just teaching in a classroom.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very grateful to be back pretty much in like full swing, doing all the things I love, dancing again and teaching again.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that 2021 has been definitely a better year.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking forward to 2022 coming soon.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Can you believe it?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: 2022.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: What what even is that?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Crazy.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, to everyone out there listening, maybe you are listening on Thanksgiving.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, you're catching up.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are talking about an extremely hot topic, not only in the dance world, but in the world in general.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that is cultural appropriation versus appreciation.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there have been a handful of discussions around certain topics in the dance world regarding this, in the Broadway world regarding this, in the casting world, many different avenues.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we have two wonderful guests that are joining us today that are so perfect for this discussion to really share their experiences, things that they've witnessed in the dance industry as professionals.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't wait to hear their stories and hear their perspectives on this very important topic.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: But before we get to meet our special guests, like always, I want to tell you quickly about Dance Costumes by Urzua, our sponsor for this episode.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Dance Costumes by Urzua offers high-end custom, one-of-a-kind costumes for all genres.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: From edgy contemporary costumes to brand new professional tutus, from leotards and even sparkly unitards.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: From musical theater to lyrical to tap, you can choose from a wide variety of fabrics and hand-painted fabrics.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Add feathers, rhinestones, and any material to bring your vision to life.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Dance Costumes by Erzua has been sponsoring us for the past two seasons, and we are so grateful to have them on board.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're looking for a costume still for the upcoming competition season, then use our exclusive promo code at IDA and receive 15% off your costume.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: That is Impact 15 in all caps at checkout.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's impact fifteen at checkout on dance costumes by Erzua.com.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: New this season, we have added an opportunity for our listeners to show their gratitude for our podcast.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: We produce this free of charge for the public.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: We hope that you enjoy what we've offered the past two seasons and the beginning here of season three.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there's an opportunity for you guys to buy us a coffee.
• 4:49
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• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: But we have the link in the show notes at kofi.com slash making the impact if you would like to leave us a little love.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can only afford to leave us love by writing us a review on Apple Podcasts, we appreciate that as well.
• 5:13
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• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So click on the link in the show notes if you want to donate monetarily or head over to Apple Podcasts to write us a five-star review.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we also wanted to just give a shout out to one of our Kofi donators from Revolve Dance Alliance.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your donation.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they said to us, thank you for providing needed information, insight, conversation, and inspiration to our studio directors.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're a brand new studio this season, and your weekly podcast with advice from true professionals in the industry shines such a bright light on the dance community.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's so nice.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's so nice.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: All right, listeners.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is time to meet our very special guests joining us for this episode.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm very excited to welcome back a guest that you may remember from season two, episode 62, Eye on the Prize, How to Develop a Competitive Mindset.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to welcome back IDA Judge Tracy Boone to the podcast.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Tracy.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello, thank you.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Glad to be back.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm so excited.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm very grateful that you were willing and open to talk about this important topic.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you had expressed interest, and I was like, perfect.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Tracy's coming on.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're bringing her on for this.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And especially like I I mentioned before we started recording to have us, I know your studio owner, which you definitely will share your a little bit about you shortly, but to have a studio owner perspective on this as well, I think is going to be really important for our listeners.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for taking time to join us back on the pod again today.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very happy.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much, too.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And do you mind just sharing a little bit about you where you're based and oh yeah.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: All about Tracy.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Go.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm based in Alabama in the South.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: So actually it's very interesting.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of feel like talking about this particular topic.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Living in the South, there's a lot of like racial things that's very much not particular, not to the whole of America, you know, relatively speaking, but in the South, it is a little bit different.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I think my reference point and my perspective is from a different lived experience than someone that's maybe from the Northeast or something like that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: But yes, based in the South in Alabama, I have a studio, been teaching for forever since I was a teen, a little baby.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: And did a little dancing, went to school, and decided that I really like this teaching thing.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I like dove headfirst into it, got a couple certifications, and here we are.
• 7:45
  unknown: Yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the do you want to share the name of your studio?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sure.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're Progressive Academy of Dance.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, in Madison, Alabama, specifically.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So all y'all listen in, maybe you'll see Tracy's studio at competition this season.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just my awesome.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you're an idea judge on our roster.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're so happy to have you.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for joining us on this discussion.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And next up is a dear old friend of mine.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've known him in the industry for a while, as Leslie has.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: They went to school together.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Love that so much.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he's a Broadway star.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he also wrote a fantastic article on danceteeer.com this past season from his experience as a judge, which we will talk about soon, and also link to this article in our show notes.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm very excited to welcome Richard Yoder to our podcast.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Richard.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hey y'all.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: How are you guys doing?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so happy to be here.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having me.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited that you could squeeze us in because I know you're living the tour life right now.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_04: She's busy, but I had to make time for this.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it and so excited to hear everything that you have to say and share with us.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if you wouldn't mind telling the world, since you're a brand new guest to our podcast, a little bit about who you are, where you're originally from, where you're based now, any career credits you'd like to share.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And also feel free to give us a little rundown of your article that you wrote as well.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so Richard Riaz Yoder, here I am.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: I'm from St.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_04: Louis, Missouri.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: I live in New York now.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: I went to school at Oklahoma City University with Leslie.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: And since then, I've been making my living doing musical theater.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: I've been in five Broadway shows.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: I was in White Christmas, On the 20th Century, Shuffle Along, Hello Dolly, and My Fair Lady.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm on My Fair Lady tour right now.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I've also made my living teaching dance, choreographing, and uh getting to judge whenever I get the chance to.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: So a couple years like this past year, I was able to start getting back into the judging life with when the musical theater industry pretty much stopped.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: So I kind I got the chance to jump right back into it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_04: And I love judging because you get to see all of these kids dancing, you get to see them reaching for new goals, you get to see choreography that might inspire you.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_04: You get to see so many different things.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: So that's one of the things I love about judging.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: But this time around, I saw something different.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: And it might have been because we've been kind of sequestered from everybody and it gave you more time to think in the quarantine.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: And uh after everything that happened with uh George Floyd, it you kind of it made people really rethink about some of the things and what they were watching and what it what they were seeing.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_04: And so this time around, when I saw it, I noticed that there was something different and something that I didn't necessarily see before.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_04: And it was a lot of the cultural appropriation that I saw.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so I wrote an article about what I saw and what I thought needed to change in the dance competition world.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it is a fantastic article.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm again, Richard, thank you so much for speaking out about that um publicly and obviously got a lot of buzz, a lot of attention.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And dance teacher.com was, you know, they saw what you had to say and gave you a platform to spread that even more, which I am so appreciative of them for doing and allowing your voice to be heard.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you to danceteacher.com.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: If anybody wants to uh read Richard's article, we're we'll link it in the show notes.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: But the article is called Racism Has No Place on the Competitive Stage, one judges experience watching modern day blackface.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that is an attention-grabbing title right there.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it grabbed some attention.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it did.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was very thankful that they uh gave me the space to say that because it's one thing about saying something to your friends or posting something on an Instagram story, but uh being able to being given the chance to actually say that to multiple people and have a greater outreach is such a blessing.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm very excited to dive into this discussion, a necessary and important discussion.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So let's jump on in.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right, guys.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So as has been kind of what I like to do at the beginning of some episodes, is just truly define the topic we're talking about because a lot of times people just sort of have different ideas, but this is straight from dictionary.com.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Cultural appropriation.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Cultural appropriation is the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that is what we're talking about today is cultural appropriation, but versus appreciation, because I know a lot of times in the dance space, many people come at choreography and different styles of dance that are outside of your own culture with a true and genuine desire to learn about it and to appreciate it for what it is while not appropriating it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes, especially in the competitive world, those lines get really blurred because you're taking something out of context and putting it into another context of a competition in front of judges who don't know your background or your story or your studio's experience.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this the competitive world is a hard place to be in a lot of times because of that reason.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I did feel it was uh necessary to just lay out what it is we're talking about before we start talking about it.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the definition.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna turn it over to y'all, Tracy and Richard.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think we see so much cultural appropriation in the dance competition world?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: It does seem sort of kind of rampant, and I don't quite know why.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's kind of kind of what you were just saying a little bit.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think people, first of all, are interested, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: With something that is not familiar to you, and you see something that like is outside of your regular, outside of your norm.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's just interesting.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think kind of at the heart of it, it starts there, and which is not a bad thing.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's just genuine, just straight up human, natural interest in something that is not your norm, which is cool.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's great.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, like we're talking about, ends up crossing over a boundary that's not cool.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I think initially it starts with curiosity.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it starts with interest.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it starts with just normal, human, just wanting to know, you know.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm okay with at that the genesis point, I'm okay with it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I do think that's a good thing.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And also I do believe in the that there's a richness in being able to kind of cross cultural boundaries so that you can learn someone else's experience.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think that's something that's kind of in that idea as well.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know about you.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know about where you're from, I want to know about what you've experienced because it's not what I've experienced.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think there is where a lot of it could potentially start.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm cool with that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think where humans are built like that, you know.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I definitely feel I love the way that you put that, that it's coming from a place of being inquisitive, of being coming from a place of wanting to know more about somebody else.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: I think that a lot of people use that as a gateway to get into kind of experiencing what somebody else might be going through.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_04: But then they kind of turn it.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_04: Some people tend to turn it into a gimmick.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_04: People turn it into a way to stand out from everybody else at a competition or a way to Yeah, just a way to be different.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so then I think it goes into another world.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_04: Once we start getting away from the appreciation of look at how cool this particular culture is, look at how how interesting this music is, or these costumes, or not even costumes, these cultural garbs that certain cultures have.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: And then they use it as a way to perform, even though it is of a particular person's culture, which should obviously not be used as a gimmick in a performance or anything like that.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: So one of the things I think the reason why it happens so much is because they don't have anybody else there to check them on that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: They don't have a friend to, they don't have a friend to say, you know what, you might want to rethink that.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's one of the good things about social media in a way is because it lets everybody get connected to everybody quicker, which might be a good thing, which might be a bad thing.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: We're all seeing the aftermath of what social media can do.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_04: But what one of the good things is that it lets you see what other people's opinions are.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so being able to see that lets you know immediately, like, you know what, this might not be the best thing, or this might be, or I am going in the right direction with this.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's just something that hasn't been checked before, really.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I like how you said it's not something that hasn't been checked.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: To me, Leslie gave us that really technical definition of what cultural appropriation is.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: But in my mind, I like to think of it as kind of like what you just said.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a lack of context, it's a lack of a reference point.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just that gimmick you were talking about, just floating out there without anything attached to it.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: But culture is not that.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Culture within itself, defined within itself, means there are things attached to it, norms attached to it, language attached to it, history attached to it.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: You just can't take something, a cultural garb, and toss it out into the world without having to attach all the things to it that it's come from, that it's come from in the beginning.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think you just said all of those things that made me think of our hip hop episode with John Comics Borella.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that is something that I think is so good, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: That is that is something that John will tell you till the cows come home about hip-hop is not a step, it's not a piece of music, it's not a piece of clothing, it is a culture, it is an identity, it is a place that people lived and came from and has a rich history all of its own.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't just put on a rap song and say that that's hip-hop with without all the other things that go with it.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that just got me there.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Good, Tracy.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's actually my number one hip-hop critique whenever I judge.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's all that's my literal number one critique.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: I see no cultural reference, I see no cultural nothing.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: It happens honestly, unfortunately, 99% of the time.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the cultural sensitivity in this?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the cultural acknowledgement?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the cultural awareness of it?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's 99% of the time just not there.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's literally my feedback most of the time.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, it's almost like an iceberg.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's like you see this one part of it, but then there's all of this other things that are connected to it underneath it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's the struggles of the particular people, it is the hopes of the particular people, it is it's how people eat, it's how people sleep, it's how people listen to music, it's how they live, it's how they interact with each other.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_04: It's so much more than just I want to put this on stage and do this particular thing.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_04: We also have to look at why these people do the particular things that they do.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_04: Why is this culture like this?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_04: Is it because they have gone through some things together, or is it because they uh find a need like this is their way to connect with each other?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: So many places, so many cultures have uh dance as a main form of connecting with each other.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: So if we're gonna also look at these cool steps that people do, we also have to know why they do those particular things.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: Why why do why do people sing the way they do?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_04: Why do people act the way they do?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: So if we don't include that it when we choreograph these things or when we have these ideas, then it becomes a little bit more of a gimmick, I feel.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: We need to make sure that we include all of that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I really love what you mentioned, Richard, about social media and having that be a place where things are being seen and being and people are being exposed, and people can have a voice to speak out about things that that others were completely unaware of.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I'm thinking back to, you know, social media is a new thing.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking back to just 20 years ago, 30 years ago, when social media wasn't around.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the amount of appropriation that was happening in so many avenues of our dance world back then, you look back at shows back then, and oh gosh, we it's it's a lot, y'all.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like they they didn't age well, you know?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, same with television shows and same, like same with so many things from 20, 30, 40, obviously, even further back in time.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, 20 years ago wasn't that long ago, and then now we have this wave of social media 10 years later, and it's being seen to the masses, and then it's also being used as a platform for dialogue and feedback.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's eye-opening for a lot of people who are very unaware.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Which I'm happy because it's good that you know our world is going in that direction and we're all learning and growing.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it keeps you it keeps you accountable.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_04: It keeps it keeps you and other people accountable because it's easy to just put something out there, especially back when nobody would see it.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_04: When re I mean, like you think about like think about some of the dance competition videos from when you guys were young.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't grow up doing dance competitions, but it's like some of those videos, nobody would have those now.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: Or a lot of people don't want to repost those videos.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like now, if you put something out there, it you get immediate feedback, which can be a lot sometimes, but at the same time, it it lets people uh it keeps you accountable for what you put out.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so what truly to you is the difference between appropriation versus appreciation?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it possible for Choreographers or dance teachers or dance studios to present something at competition that is appreciating the culture without appropriating it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is that even possible in your eyes?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm curious to hear what you both, especially if you've witnessed anything in particular at competitions that you know your mind immediately goes to.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: But any advice, I guess, to teachers when it comes to this.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_04: I always say to people, if you have to think about it so hard, if you if is it okay if I do this, if you have to labor for hours thinking about it, then it's probably a no.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's probably a no for me.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: Quick answer, it's pretty, it's pretty much a no.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_04: There is a way to do it, but I think that if you have to check with everybody on earth that you know that like, is this okay?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_04: If you have that twinge of, I don't know if I'm doing this right, then it's probably a no.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_04: I think that there is a way to do it, but we also have to look about why you are doing it.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: Why are you doing it?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: Are you doing this to, oh, I know this song or I heard this song, and it's popular with these particular kids, so maybe I'll just try this.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: Or are you really honestly, and a lot of people, this is I got this a lot from some of my friends that especially I went to college with that are now owning studios, that are now choreographing in the competition world.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: They're like, I want, I am, I want to appreciate, I want to show appreciation for this culture.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: And then I have to ask them, are you really?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_04: Are you really trying to show appreciation for them?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_04: Because appreciation for a culture would be hiring somebody to come in that is of that culture, that knows that particular kind of choreography, bringing them into the conversation.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you just look at a video and you're like, I love what that person's doing, I'm gonna take all of that choreography, I'm gonna take their costumes, and I'm going to choreograph it myself and then put it on stage.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_04: That does not feel like appreciation for a culture.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: So we need to make sure that we contact whoever it is, contact somebody that is an expert or somebody that is from that particular culture and have them come in, give their ideas about what this particular dance could be or what this particular number could be.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you don't include somebody from that culture, that turns into appropriation.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think a key, like a really good example of this, and this is something we've seen for years at the competition, is this particular song, Jai Ho.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Y'all all know Jaiho.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: We've heard it so many times.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And Jai Ho is a song from the Bollywood world.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: That is where that song originated.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's the language that it's in.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's but the majority of the time you're seeing a bunch of white children dressed in Indian garb, possibly with a bendy, which they don't know what that means more than likely, doing acro.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's all that's all that there is.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And case in point, Richard, if if a studio said, you know what, I love this style, I love this culture, I love this movement, this is a legitimate dance form.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody can teach that.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: If you live in a major metropolitan area or two hours outside of it, you're gonna be able to find somebody who can teach a Bollywood style dance with the with the correct hand placements, with the correct arm shapes and movements.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: They can counsel you on whether or not to wear a bindi.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm pretty sure the answer is no.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And do you we have the internet?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: Also, we have the internet.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_04: You can Google is a savior, okay?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_04: Google is your savior.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: You Leslie, you were so right.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_04: You anybody has the ability to contact somebody, everybody knows somebody.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_04: The dance world is like two people, basically.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's like there's there's hardly anybody in it, especially once you get to I uh like the competition world.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: So being able to contact somebody and being able to say, hey, could you even on Zoom, even on Zoom, just go through and just I don't I don't know exactly what all of the movements are, but it's if you hence why you don't choreograph to Jai Ho, because you don't know what it means.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: And it's also it's if you're going to be appreciating the culture, you also need to teach those kids about why all of these movements are the way that they are.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: Teach them about the culture, teach them about the people that live there, maybe teach you up, teach them about the struggles of those particular people or what they are known for, or what is something good that it comes out of that particular culture.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: Because that will also open up those kids' minds to other people and give them compassion for other people.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: If they're learning about, if they're learning about people, then they will they won't have a bias against them.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_04: That gets into something bigger.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I know we're not necessarily talking about that, but it's like exactly.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's literally it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: What we're talking about here is cultural nuance.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And unless you're immersed in that culture, you don't know the nuance of it.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it is honestly very inappropriate, and I'll use your word, Richard, ultimately hurtful to try and grab something from a culture without having the nuance of it.
• 27:16
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then throwing some choreography or doing something with it, you end up being very harmful, very detrimental.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: You treat the culture as if it's expendable when it's not.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Cultural appreciation is going to be rich.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to be thoughtful.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to be researched.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's not going to be treated as if this is something that is a commodity that you can just use because you think it's cute.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or how to be more thoughtful than that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, exactly.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's got to be more thoughtful than that.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Has to have more intent.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Where you was about to go, Richard, I was I was there too.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: I was with you.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can't.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is about, we're talking about people.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Human beings.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about real, actual human beings lived lives, and we have to treat it as such.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's really easy to other people.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm gonna go there.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think America, unfortunately, has this really bad problem with othering, right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And if you other enough, then the other becomes no longer a person.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: You're no longer a human, right?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: We can look at that from African American history here in America.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: Black people, unfortunately, are the other, right?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Historically speaking.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: So therefore, taking that cultural perspective of doing a hip-hop dance at a competition and not realizing the reason why people twerk is actually an African movement and that's actually communication.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Then all of a sudden that's the commodity, right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then, or the example that you gave, Richard, in your article, which is I think a perfect example, you've got these girls walking out with stuff on their faces, like covering their faces and acting like they're like being gangsters or thugs or something like that.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: So then the only reference point that you have for people of color, for black people, people in the hood, is this is how they all act.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now you've othered.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now you've dehumanized them.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: These are no longer people with stories, these are no longer people with lives, these are no longer people with struggles, these are no longer people with hopes, dreams.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: They're just an other and they're no longer human.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that is very, very detrimental.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the other the other thing othering.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's like the sickness of America, othering.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_04: You said that that it was the way that you put that, I don't think I necessarily thought about it like that before, but it makes so much sense because if you can put somebody at arm's length for so long, then they are caricature.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: They are caricature.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: They're no they're no longer minstrel stroke, white minstrel shows.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that is.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's a caricature, right?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_04: Using that to dehumanize people to also, in a way, control people.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_04: In a way to control people.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: Well, control the narrative that is not yours.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_04: Boom.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_04: Come through narrative.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and the other the other thing that all of the other thing that all of that does is it takes away the good, fun, happy parts of a culture and leaves aside all the struggles.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: When we see a hip-hop dance, you know, to a really fun upbeat song, maybe the lyrics are saying something about that culture.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: But the dance movements aren't.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: The costuming isn't.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: There you're just taking away the good things that are profitable, maybe not monetarily profitable, but socially profitable and leaving aside all the negative things you don't want to think.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's another like just piece of exploitation that has happened, like you said, since minstrel times, since the Charleston.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: The Charleston wasn't for white people.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: The Charleston was made by black people.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: So much of our social dances, social culture, uh Elvis freaking Presley.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like Elvis didn't start doing what he did out of nowhere.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: He took all of that from other people.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it it is, it's just taking away from and not giving any credit.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's for competition, for dance studios, for teachers.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, listen, I get that probably your run of the mill dance teacher anywhere possibly doesn't have the time, doesn't have the resources, doesn't have the staff to really delve into a culture appropriately.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is true.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's just the truth.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: However, what everybody can do is pay credit where credit is due.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you're teaching a tap step, talk about where it came from.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you're teaching, you know, something from the hip hop canon, John Comics Brella, teach about where it comes from.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it's only a piece of the information you give.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: You have to start somewhere.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's kind of the beginning of the studio conversation is no, you know, d does everybody expect somebody to have, you know, a master's degree in anthropological studies and history?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, we don't all have that.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: But we all have hopefully the capacity of compassion and understanding and willingness to reopen your mind, I think too, because people kind of like we talked about 20 years ago, people weren't questioning certain things.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: 30, 40 years ago, they just weren't.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now if you're looking back into history and you're saying, ugh, that's problematic, then you have to be open-minded to say, you know what, back then it was acceptable, or it people thought it was, or people weren't talking about that it wasn't acceptable.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And now it really, really isn't.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm willing to say that.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm willing to make a move towards making something better.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's really important.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna couple that idea with the fact that I think a lot of people, this is what I learned as a black person.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: There are things that are specific to the black culture, to the black experience in America that white people just don't know, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're in a particular way of living or being, you can take for granted that other people are not.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's vice versa, right?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: There was a lot of white people that didn't know that black people just had these regular strugglers.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: These are regular everyday struggles.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: My brother is six foot four, dark-skinned black guy.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: He thinks three, four, five, six, seven times before he walks in his very suburban white American neighborhood on what he's gonna wear to walk his two-year-old baby, you know, just down the street because he knows his body, the way that he is, is just imposing and people are afraid of black people.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Specifically big black men, they just are, right?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: So what I realized was that a lot of people just didn't know.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it was important for me as a black person.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Again, that's regular for me, that's regular, right?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: But I didn't realize how many white people did not know.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: They just didn't know.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was up to me to make sure that I'm not looking at white people differently, giving grace and mercy, because I can't hold you accountable for something that you don't know.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: I can't look at my two-year-old nephew and be like, what's two plus two?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Quick.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And he, I mean, a man doesn't even know numbers.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's literally always he run around, he's always like, eight nine gen, eight nine gen.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like he has no idea.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I can't be mad at him for not knowing that it's four, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: The same way I can't be mad at people for not knowing.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: However, here we are, 2021, in the age of Google, okay, in the age of social media, now that we are opening these doors, now that we actually are talking about things, I think it's important for people to take a moment and take a step back and be like, even though that's not what you meant, even though you did that Jose dance just because you thought that song is really fun and upbeat, but we're telling you that it's actually an issue, it's actually problematic.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think at this point now, people should be like, okay, okay, we'll take a moment, let's listen, let's chat about this.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And like I mentioned earlier, the thing about nuance, nuance is hard to talk about.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to like put a pen in, it's hard to put words to, which is why I do think we need to approach a lot of these discussions not only with care, but understanding that stuff is going to take time to delve through.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of people want a quick fix to a lot of things, and um, I don't think that's realistic either.
• 34:36
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• 34:37
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• 34:42
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• 34:43
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• 34:59
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• 35:19
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• 35:24
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• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: To me, this is all about being gracious, being merciful to people, but also what Richard said, we are holding people accountable.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: We have to because a human is not expendable, right?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: A culture is not expendable.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have a question.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hot question.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I have a feeling that a lot of people are thinking this as they're listening to this episode right now.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to the JI-HO discussion, the JIHO dance that we've been talking about.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to what you mentioned, Richard, saying that you can bring in a classical Indian teacher, an educator, or a Bollywood instructor, and have them teach your dancers the correct culture and the correct dance to this song if you really, really want to use this song and not appropriate, hopefully.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: However, my question is as a judge, we don't if that was done, like let's say the studio has taken the steps that they feel has is is appreciating the culture in the right way, presenting the stance at competition, but as a judge, we don't know that.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's been done, you know, what has been taught, who has taught it.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know who the choreographer is, we don't know anything.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: So do you feel like that's that's sticky and and tricky territory to present in a competitive atmosphere?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that the competition stage is the best place for that?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel it's better to be left at recital?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe just a classroom connectivity and a part of the class structure in whatever class that is, acro class?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because my other question with that is let's say, like, I guess where I'm trying to go is when when is it okay?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: I guess, because in my head, I'm still thinking like, all right, so the teacher is doing the right, taking the right steps.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: They brought in the Bollywood instructor, they have the Bollywood movements in the dance, they've learned the culture, they've studied the history of of this.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's still the stereotypical everything, every trick under the sun, because this needs to be in a c a dance competition, and it still needs to win at the end of the day.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on just that scenario?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is that acceptable or not?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_04: I think that that starts to be where it gets kind of hazy because yes, you want to be able to have somebody come in, like in perfect scenario, have somebody come in, choreograph it, be true to these particular people and this culture and be happy and it's gonna win.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: Everything's perfect.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, that's what you would want.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: But the thing is, it's like we have to think about why are we doing this?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_04: Why are we doing this?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_04: For some of them, it might be better if it was just learned in a class and that's it.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: Some things don't always need to be put on stage.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: Ding ding ding.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_04: I think it might, in my opinion, I think it's better to if you wanted to have a little bit of that kind of feeling in a number, try to see if you can get it choreographed by somebody or try to stay as close to it as you can.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_04: But some things don't need to be.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_04: We have to ask the reason why are we particularly doing this?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_04: Why does an all-white studio feel the need to take from somebody else's culture to put it on stage?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_04: Why do they feel like they have to do this?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_04: To win a trophy?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_04: Why do they feel like they have to do that?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because for me, I I don't necessarily see that.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: I don't necessarily see the I can see the why of like, oh, that's cool.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe borrow stuff from it, but then make it your own particular thing rather than I'm going to do this number that looks exactly like them.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_04: So you can take some of, and this is this is why I love tap dancing.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_04: Because in tap dancing, you see somebody do a step.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_04: Rather than taking the exact same step and doing it the exact same way that they do and putting it in your own dance, what you do is you see it, you look at it, and you say, Oh, okay, that's what they're doing.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna take elements of it and I'm going to turn it into my own particular thing that doesn't necessarily match what those people are doing at all.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: So then it becomes something different rather than I'm going to take this person's exact dance and then put it on stage.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm going to take this person's likeness and then put it on stage.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_04: So that's kind of that's kind of how I feel about the the but it gets, I don't know, it gets kind of hazy at that point.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: But like in that scenario that you just like mentioned, that would also mean that we are not dancing to Ji-ho, correct?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like do you know what I mean?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: Because don't just pick something else.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_04: There's five billion other songs out there.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna read it.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: If we can be inspired and influenced by other styles of dance, but then we should not be being inspired and pulling and creating our own and then still dancing to a song from that culture where that will again come across as appropriation instead of appreciation.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, think about think about what you listen to, what what you listen to on an everyday, what drive what drives you, what inspires you.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_04: Choreograph it to that.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_04: Take ideas from somebody else's thing, rework it into your own creation, work it into your own creation.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: That's like a lot of times tap dancers will use a lot of Latin rhythm.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: And it doesn't necessarily mean that they are Latin, but they're gonna take some of those ideas and then morph it into their own particular thing.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: But at the same time, tap dancers are great about hearkening back to who they learned it from, which was what Leslie was talking about before, creating a lineage, creating a lineage of okay, where did this come from?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_04: I had this idea for something and then I made it into something else, but I got the idea from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_04: Or I got an idea from this particular thing.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's giving back to that culture and letting people know that's where I got that idea from.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_04: But the thing is, when they take an entire culture and put it on stage, that is something different.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think that, you know, if your sort of original question, Court, about like how how is the judge really supposed to know if you'd put in the work, you know?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So my thought is think about classical ballet variations.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Marius Petipa put in the work.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: He choreographed the variation, whichever one it is.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: You put it on stage and it's listed as forgive me, I don't know what he choreographed, but Giselle, I'm not right.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: So to ballet people out there, I am not right.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: That is not who choreographed it.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_04: But anyway, Giselle.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_04: Don't know about it.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea is in that title, Giselle variation originally staged by Petipa, originally choreographed by this choreographer.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a choreographer that you have hired from a culture to do your dance to JI-Ho, put it in the title.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because that way I know.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's an easy way.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, like you said, we don't know the choreographer.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know your history, I don't know anything as a judge.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I have number 242 JI-HO.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I got.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: But if but you're you, the studio owner, whoever, is responsible for entering the title in.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: So like if you feel that strongly that you want people to know, listen, I did the work, I hired somebody to do this, put it in the title.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because then we know.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like that to me would be a very easy hack to get around somebody saying to you mistakenly, uh, I don't know if this was, you know, I I feel like this is appropriation.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if it's in the title that it's choreographed by somebody X, Y, and Z, then maybe it's not.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe that's one way.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: We should know the choreographer, I feel we should be told as judges who choreographed a dance anyway.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: We never really never.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like that the choreographers are just forgotten about, like they're not important to be recognized.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So why isn't that a part of the registration process anyway?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think it might be there, but we don't see it.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is for some places as a studio owner.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I have to interrupt this stuff in, and sometimes it is, but not all the time.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's an excellent idea.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: But even as a judge, honestly, I think you can tell that's that was you can totally tell when something is actually like another point well researched.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you could you can see the nuance.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: You may not have words for it, but you can see it.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I judged a piece, this was a few years ago, I think.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually fits in the example that you gave a little bit earlier, Leslie.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: But that song, This is America by Childish Gambino.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh an indictment on America.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: The song itself is.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Specifically, but he in the music video presents it almost in a satirical way.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: But this particular hip-hop dance gave no reference point to that at all.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: They just had there's little girls with a red, white, and blue tank top.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, I saw this dance.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I saw this exact dance.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: I saw this exact dance and I was just as confused.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was just as confused as you.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Very confusing.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but yeah, so it's like I as a judge, I'm watching this.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's very it's plain, it's obvious.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: You have no idea who childish Gambino is.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: You do not watch this music video, you don't know what he's talking about in this song.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's very obvious.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if you had, you never would have put it on stage ever.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, you probably would not have not that song, not that one.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Not that one, no.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I just I I just use that as an example to say, like, I really feel like you can tell when things are actually done.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it was as a studio owner, I called somebody to come in, give a class, teach some things, and then choreographed it myself, or use them as a choreographer, but you can still tell.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: You just can't.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I will die on that.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just think you can.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I think like like you've said multiple times already, Richard.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, why are we presenting it on like it what's the reason?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: To me, the only thing that I can get from it is a win.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're thinking this is going to be so different and so unique that you're trying to get a win instead of it actually being about the appreciation of the culture.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's the case, then there won't be aerials in a traditional Bollywood dance or something.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, things like that.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_04: Or if there yeah, or if there is, it's gonna be it's gonna be in influenced by the emotion of a number or something like that, rather than we're just gonna put this in just to do this.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that goes ready to go.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think that goes back to what Tracy says, like you will be able to tell.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_04: You will be able, without a doubt, you'll be able to tell if people have put in the work.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then the thing is, if they haven't put in the work, you're gonna see, and it uh obviously it goes to like what the kids' uh levels are and things like that, but you're gonna be able to see if the teacher has put in the work to actually appreciate the culture because the teacher might just pick little things every now and again.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_04: I see choreographers still doing this now in the professional, in the professional music theater world.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_04: There's this one particular uh swing dance number that every, almost every choreographer takes from.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's all of the, it's these three black couple or four black couples and they're swing dancing together, and they're all dressed as maids or butlers or is that from Hellsapot then?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're talking about?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's what it's from.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: But it's like every single time, and if I can find it, I'll send it to you guys.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_04: But it's almost every time that they need a swing number, they just pull it up and they're like, we want that.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_04: Rather than bringing somebody in to show us, so then it's up to the dancers to have to look at what they're doing and then kind of figure it out.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like if somebody has a swing background, then yeah, they'll be able to like, okay, this is what they're doing.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_04: But it happens all the time.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_04: People see people doing a particular thing and they're like, eh, just put that up.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: And you can tell, you can tell on stage, you're like, that preparation does not make sense with that particular step.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you were, if you were somebody that was inside that culture and inside that world, you would know that that wouldn't work.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_04: You would know that that positioning with the hands does not flow into the next one.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_04: You would know that the feet are not going with the rest of the body at that point.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: So it's exactly what Tracy said.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_04: You can tell.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's such a good point.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: And that got me, that got me hot.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_04: She said that so far.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's like it's so obvious when somebody doesn't do their work.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's the lack of connectiveness, you know, like we were saying at the beginning.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: There's this this this gimmick is just out there floating, but you can tell that there's no historical context, there's nothing, there's no reference point, there's nothing attached to it.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that again, ultimately, of course, again, we're I just want to make this very clear.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: We understand no one is trying to do this intentionally.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: I really don't think they are.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Of course not.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: However, we're letting you know though a lot of times it is very unfortunate.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then what you end up doing is planting a seed inside of children, especially if we're since we're talking about a competitive dance world.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you're doing a dance that is very specific to a particular culture, but you don't go out of your way to educate your children about it, right?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: Then again, all you do is cement that idea that that particular culture is expendable.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so here we are still in 2021, and we're all able to watch a video of a man literally putting his uh knee on another man's neck, watch him murder him, right?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: We everybody saw literally watched a murder on the internet, and people still are like, ah, was a murder though.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: What did he do wrong though?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's because he's been, or people that look like him have been so dehumanized for so long.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: People didn't see a person, they didn't see him, they didn't see a man.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the problem when we do stuff like that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: I know it sounds dramatic, but ultimately that's the seed that we're planting that it's okay to dehumanize, that it's okay.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so then 30 years from now, when you see one of those little girls that was in that girls in the hood dance, she just happens to drive by a particular place, all of a sudden that reference point comes to her.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's everybody here is a thug, everybody here is dangerous, everybody's here, and you don't even realize it's from that one dance you did 20 years ago, but that's the seed that was planted, you know?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to make sure right now that we're communicating, guys, like you got to be responsible for the fruit or you know what what may happen as a result of that seed that's planted.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_04: And that I feel like that also goes with a lot of a lot of teachers and studio owners and parents reached out to me and they're like, Well, how do I talk about race with my children?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_04: How do I talk about race with kids that are this young?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: And the thing is that there it's not too early to talk about race with any kid, I don't think.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_04: When you can talk, yeah.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: I actually don't like that question.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like that question.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you don't like that question?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like people ask that.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like it.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because the thing is, it's like children of color, black children, Asian children.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have a choice.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_04: We have no choice.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_04: I remember when um I can literally still remember my mother talking to me about how to talk to police officers and how to, if I am the only person of color, and because obviously I grew up in the suburbs, so a lot of the kid and the music theater, so a lot of the kids that I hung out with at a in when I was growing up were all white.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: Almost all of them were white.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_04: And there was like maybe three or four other black kids there or kids of color.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_04: So she was like, if you are around these kids all the time and you guys get in trouble, you need to learn how to talk to police officers a very particular way.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_04: And you need to learn how to do this because you are this and they are that.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_04: So she told me right, I mean, one of the earliest uh memories that I have was her telling me that because she knew that she had to instill it in me as much as she possibly could.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: So you saying that I don't feel like I can talk to my kids about race is coming from a a place, and I I know nobody likes to hear this word, but is coming from a place of privilege.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_04: The fact that you have the privilege to not talk to your kids about race is what a what a wonderful thing to be able to have, to not have that as an armor that you have to put on.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: And to, and this goes back to what Tracy was talking about about not having, not I I know I'm going all the other place, but a lot of people have to put on armor to go out into the world.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of people have to put on layers and layers and layers of armor.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_04: And if you don't know, or if you don't have any clue about what that person's armor is, then you might just take them at face value.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like this person is this particular way because of this.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_04: You don't know that that person is also this way.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_04: This person might not be that talkative or might not want to talk that much or be in a particular area because this person is of color, this person is black, and they don't want to be in some place.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like when we take off all of that armor and everything, we have to know that it's like you can teach these kids at any time.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_04: You can teach these kids at any time what this what race is, and you can teach them, it doesn't have to be like this is scary because you'd be like, this is what this person's background is.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_04: This is it gives a human marker to somebody rather than, like you were saying before, a stereotype of somebody.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the better question to ask, as opposed to like when should I talk to my child about race?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think the better question is how.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's what people are trying to get to.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know how to do this, so how do I do that?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm cool with that question, but don't ask me when.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's no that's not a thing.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_04: It it is now.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_04: It drives me insane.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's like people have had to do this for so long.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_04: Just do it.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, I think, I think it also it brings out stuff in the person that has to talk about it as well.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's like, well, what do I actually think of a particular group of people?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_04: If I'm if I'm talking to about, if I'm like trying to educate these children on this culture, it's like, what do I know about this culture?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_04: What do I know about these people?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_04: Do I have any friends of this particular kind of culture?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that that's I think people are more afraid of that.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_04: And it's okay to be it's okay to be afraid of that.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of like this is we're in a time of learning and growing.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_04: And this is also a time of being able to say, I don't know.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's okay.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's okay to not know something.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's the mantra right now.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it is the mantra.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_04: Anybody that says that they know every single thing that's happening right now is probably not right.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's okay to just like, I'm gonna learn more about this.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_04: Read a book.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_04: Read a book.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_04: There's so many, there's so many, do an audio book.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_04: There's there's so many things to learn right now.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_04: And to think that you can't learn something right now is is not true.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_04: It's free yourself from that feeling.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think one of the a tiny piece of like advice that I would have being not a parent about when to talk to your child, the sooner the better.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because the longer you wait, the more seeds come from outside of your voice.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you are a caregiver or a parent or a you know, somebody who is immediately immediately responsible for a child, sooner the better.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's outside influences everywhere that are not maybe what you want your child to be ingesting about a particular culture, a particular race, a particular kind of person.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you said, Richard, you th this comes down to individuals and and deciding what do I really believe, what do I really think, and how am I gonna contribute that to the kids in my life?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it goes for people in charge of children in generally, dance studio owners, music teachers, a dance teacher, and anybody who has has a kid for 30 to minutes to an hour a week, you know, like you are you are planting seeds in how you teach them about all kinds of things.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I then I've said this before.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're dance teachers, but we do a whole lot more.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole lot more on our plate than just teaching kickball change.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: And right.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: We're helping in the formation of these young people.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, actual literal formation.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_04: People forget that.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's like any time.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_04: So the uh the amount of time that I've spent around little kids around uh this pandemic has been more than I have probably in years.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_04: I ended up staying with a friend of mine from from college, and I was around her kids 24-7.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_04: And these kids pick up everything.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_04: Children pick up everything, and kids can pick up the way that you're feeling, even if you don't necessarily say something.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_04: So if you have a certain prejudice against somebody, or if you have a certain bias, kids pick up on that.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_04: Kids pick up on that, and then they pick up, they're like, maybe I should feel that way as well.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_04: And so if you go into a situation saying, I'm going to just fully learn, I'm going to be open with these people, I'm going to teach about this culture, kids pick up on that and they're like, oh, that's how I should approach.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_04: That's how I should approach this particular thing, or that's how I should approach getting to know some, getting to know somebody new, or anything like that.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like we are very much a part of growing kids' minds.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a great blessing, but it's also something that people should take very seriously.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because if they don't educate these kids about other cultures, they might not get it anywhere else.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_04: And if you try to put them on stage doing JI-ho or whatever, like or girls in the hood, then that's what they know.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's what they know about these particular people if they're not around them every day.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's such a great point that I'm so glad you brought up, which was also going to be kind of what I was going to lead into.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Leslie and I, we spoke about this prior to the episode, but and I think Tracy, you might have said it, like how how do some of these things that we might witness, you know, even in dance, like the sooner that you can talk about these things with your your kids, like as parents with your kids, the better because they are being exposed and you don't want your dance studio to be the first exposure to some of these cultures, and maybe not in the appropriate way.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: So the other thing to think about is while we say all the time on this podcast to trust your teachers, we definitely let's trust our teachers.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we uh we are trusting you all.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: But like you mentioned, I think, Tracy earlier, sometimes when it comes to appropriation, how how did things slip through so many eyes?
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: How did things even make it to the competition stage when during the preview show parents are watching this?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we want to trust the teacher, but if it's appropriation and we're feeling that while you're watching, and these are your children dancing in this, that this also this culture hasn't even been discussed with them in the appropriate ways, and the history hasn't been taught and the culture hasn't been discussed, then what do we do?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think at that point, if I was a parent and it was my child, I would speak up to my studio owner or my teacher, the choreographer, and say, hey, I'm a little uncomfortable with this.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if others have expressed this.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if my dancer should be doing this dance, you know.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all, you know, it's offensive.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's inappropriate for competition, you know, things like that.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: I it's sometimes when we see certain things come to the stage, and as a judge, everyone feels like we have the power, we don't have the power to disqualify something.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have the power to, you know, we can use our voice, but at the same time we can't, because when when we're sitting in the judge's chair, we aren't speaking to the teacher.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we really don't have the power.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: So at that point, how can how can we, as educators and like grateful that we have this platform, our podcast, to talk about things like this?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: But like if the parents haven't said anything and all the other teachers haven't said anything, the kids can't say nothing, let's be real.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're oblivious, they don't know.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: And these are these are authority figures that are giving them material.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: The kids can't speak up, you know, they're learning from them.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we how do we correct this in the industry, I think, is where my final question is kind of getting at.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: We can't, I mean, and in in your scenario, Richard, with some of the dances that you witnessed judging this season, did you penalize them for this?
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: Even though it was a teacher's mistake, oh, you know, were you able to penalize them?
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: Were you not able to penalize them?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: How did you approach it as a judge?
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because, like I said, we as judges don't have as much power in a scenario like that, when we're watching some appropriation on the stage, what what do what can we do?
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do we do?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: I guess is because there's not teachers' critiques.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be real.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like there aren't teacher critiques in competition.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like very like 10% of competitions have started implementing that.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be where this feedback would go.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: But in in the scenario that we don't, what did you do in your scenario, Richard?
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to hear.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_04: So I did not, I did not penalize a dance.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't take off points for the dance.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_04: But what I did, rather than starting to talk about, which is what I would love to do, which was talk about the technique of a particular dance or talk about the style of a dance, what I ended up talking about, which was kind of a waste of my time and the studio's time, I talked about why this should not be on stage.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I gave them my scores about what I thought, but then at the same time, I took the I took the time while recording and I said, I don't feel that this should be on stage right now because this is a form of cultural appropriation.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I gave examples.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_04: And so once I brought it up to the competition owners, I won't say the competition just because I don't know if they want to be said, the competition owners, they came up with an idea of being able to send a separate letter directly to the studio.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's what I did.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_04: If I saw it the first time that I did that, I just talked.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_04: The second time that I did that, or the second time that I saw it and third time and fourth time that I saw it, I actually just sent them a direct note and saying, I'm sure you didn't mean to.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_04: Actually, I didn't say that.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_04: I just said, this is a culture preparation, and this is why I think that this you might need to rethink this.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_04: And there were, I think, two studios that push back pretty heavily because they were upset and I think that they were partly embarrassed, and there's nothing to be embarrassed about, but there is a chance to learn.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_04: There's a chance to learn from it.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so yeah, they uh we sent notes and I just spent the time rather than critiquing their technique.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_04: I just talked about how this should probably not be on stage.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's great that you actually spoke directly to the studios themselves.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think to me, Courtney, that kind of answers that question.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do we correct this?
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be one dance at a time, one conversation at a time, one competition at a time.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree with you a thousand percent, Richard.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: We don't need to penalize dances at competition.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: We need to just invoke conversation and then um instigate people getting some education and learning.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, as we've already said, most people don't know.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to say this too.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay if you don't know.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's not your culture.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: I am I am African American.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: I have no, I don't have any reference point, honestly, about Chinese culture.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't, you know what I mean?
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: So therefore, no, I don't think it would be fair for someone to hold me accountable to Chinese culture.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: Just because I didn't know something.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's not right.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lot of things, again, people don't know.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: So then if you don't know, and then someone's like, hey, by the way, this is actually problematic, then the posture should be, oops, I did not know.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: Help me, thank you, and then then help me.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think unfortunately we live also this part of the issue, not just with the competitive world.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know we keep kind of talking in macro terms a lot of times, but this is a macro issue.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_02: We live in a very sensitive time.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: People, instead of being able to be humble, jump to being offensive or being offended, unfortunately.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: But also we live in a time kind of what Richard was saying.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think everybody kind of feels like they know everything because we have the internet, but what we're learning is a lot of people actually don't know a lot of things.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so that makes it more difficult to engage in these conversations, which makes sense to me why you know Richard got pushback.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: But to me, again, to specifically answer the question, I think this is one conversation at a time, one competition at a time.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: Someone's gonna put something on stage.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if you as a studio owner, as a choreographer, aren't sure, but you really love your idea and you really want to do it, hey bro, do it, do it, put it on the stage.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Just know when someone comes back that they're coming back out of love, out of out of a place of trying to make sure that not only are you better, but those kids are better.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't perpetuate this negative behavior any further, you know.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I really think it's important to try and take the the uneasiness out of it, you know.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, I just but also this my my personal setup, Tracy tends to be pretty like straightforward and I don't really get bothered by too much.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I do understand that this is like a sensitive and uncomfortable thing for a lot of people.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I I would also say like be okay with the discomfort, you know, if somebody's like, hey, this was a problem, like that's okay to be uncomfortable with that or a little embarrassed.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't know, and that's cool.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: But now you know and let's adjust.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's absolutely so well said, yes.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that uh the hard position that I feel as a judge in the in this scenario is afraid to speak uh directly to the teacher because essentially you are in that in that at that point on a tape that's meant for the dancers and then the hopeful understanding of your boss that appreciates what you're doing and you know, knows that there could be a consequence in a way as far as backlash by the customer or or backlash from not getting a job again, potentially.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I think as as educators and as judges and as workers and as humans, if this is something that we want to change, I think the only way, like you said, is to have a conversation about it and acknowledge it from the beginning.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's a sad thing to have to essentially we're not penalizing the dancers, but I know for a fact if I've been in many scenarios as a judge where I'm sitting there watching and I'm so uncomfortable that I c I can't even come up with a way to critique anything that I'm watching right now because I just you know, my head is so focused on the other aspect of this should not be on stage.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I watching this right now?
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: What was the you know what I mean?
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's hard for me to even do my job.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I again I think it it really comes back to like we what we've said many times is is the why and is this the right place?
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is this really the right place on the competitive stage to be judged, to be critiqued?
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because if well and and I think Richard, you said this before.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you have to ask questions, if you feel like you're tiptoeing the line, it's probably not a good idea.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you're you're you're then going you should be expecting potential feedback like that.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: You should you know what I mean?
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like you should don't be surprised by it.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: But again, a lot of the people that are surprised they just didn't know.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: They just didn't know.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I want to say it again.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay if you didn't know it's okay.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: But now you know, but like once you know, you can't unknow.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that that means people have to have the integrity to to accept the past and move forward and do something different in the future.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think is where people get a little thorny about it.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thorny area.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: And like, and I think that is like as a culture, macro, macro speaking, macroeconomically, I don't know what the word that is that is where I think all of the world needs to take a step back and be like not so thorny about that.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, listen, the past was the past, things happened and they were wrong, and like I'm gonna move forward in a better way, in a more understanding way, in a more open way.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you gotta do.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:07:47
  unknown: Totally.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have many things to ask, but I we're like at an hour and a half.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that's but that's well what I said before.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the point.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, honestly, this is like very heavy, it's a lot of nuance, it's thick, and you know, just having it's gonna be again one competition at a time, one conversation at a time, one person at a time.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna take time for this to really like seep its way into regular, like everyday like thoughtfulness, you know.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, this is like a thing.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be, but today it is.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_04: This is very much generational learning that we're gonna do.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's a good idea.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's like yeah, yeah, this is not gonna be fixed by any one podcast or any one dance or any one particular thing or article.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be years of people really looking inside and being like, okay, is this right?
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_04: Am I actually doing the right thing?
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_04: And it's okay if you might be like, you know what?
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_04: I that was not necessarily aligning with what I think is the correct way to live my life.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_04: We might need to like take some time out and just really think about those uh those dances.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh do do do they need to be on stage?
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_04: Just like you said, do they need to be on stage?
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_04: Am I connecting with the right people?
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_04: Am I doing all of the right work before something gets put on stage?
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_04: And then at the even at that time, maybe you realize that I don't need this to be on stage.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_04: So it's gonna take time.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for tuning in and joining us for this week's episode.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: Shout out to our spectacular guests, Tracy and Richard, for joining us this week on the pod.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to follow them on Instagram.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can find Tracy at TRA Boon One and Richard at Richard Rios.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_00: Also, be sure to join our Facebook community at Making the Impact a Dance Competition Podcast community.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: We will be going live on Facebook next Wednesday, December 1st, from 1 to 2 p.m.
• 1:09:55
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• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to tune in and ask questions directly to us, live on the air, then join us there and mark your calendars.
• 1:10:09
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• 1:10:18
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• 1:10:23
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• 1:10:27
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• 1:10:40
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• 1:10:50
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• 1:11:01
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• 1:11:08
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• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: We are in the middle of an excellent season three with some great episodes coming your way.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned for the power of networking, the December edition of QA with Courtney, and recreational versus competitive dance.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: We would like to wish all of the dance families out there a very happy Thanksgiving.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we are so thankful that you continue to listen to our podcast.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep dancing.