Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1084 - A Real World Honey Trap [R]

Transcript

#1084 - A Real World Honey Trap [R] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: While not rated explicit, the contents of this podcast episode
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  Speaker 1: do contain themes that will not be suitable for younger listeners.
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  Speaker 1: Parental discretion is advised. The contents of this podcast episode
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  Speaker 1: may be inappropriate for young listeners. It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: once answers.
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  Speaker 1: Now vulnerable children and adolescents are being actively encouraged to
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  Speaker 1: take their own lives by sexual extortionists, with tragic cases
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  Speaker 1: here in Australia and the US and a range of
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  Speaker 1: other countries where we're seeing young people being hurt and
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  Speaker 1: worse as a result of what happens online. And at
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  Speaker 1: the moment, Julie Inman Grant, Australia's e Safety Commissioner, along
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  Speaker 1: with a lot of other online safety experts and child
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  Speaker 1: abuse investigators, are really cracking down hard, slamming social media
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  Speaker 1: giants for not doing the basics to protect users from
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  Speaker 1: I don't know how else to say it. Just no,
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  Speaker 1: I can't say the words I was going to say
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  Speaker 1: that would be inappropriate for this podcast. Just unscrupulous, ruthless
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  Speaker 1: scammers who are trapping children into sending intimate images and
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  Speaker 1: then threatening to expose them to family and friends. There
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  Speaker 1: are hundreds, if not more, reports being made to federal
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  Speaker 1: police every month of children who have shared intimate images
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  Speaker 1: to overseas based scammers who are then using hacked and
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  Speaker 1: fraudulent social media accounts to extort money and more from
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  Speaker 1: the people who have been scammed. We often speak with
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  Speaker 1: the Australian Senate Account of Child Exploitation or ACE on
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  Speaker 1: the podcast about these scams and what parents can do.
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  Speaker 1: They're known as honey traps. Today, I'm very very grateful
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  Speaker 1: to be joined by somebody who has unfortunately been a
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  Speaker 1: victim of one of these honey traps, one of these
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  Speaker 1: sextortion attempts. I'm joined by Hailey, mum to five kids,
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  Speaker 1: and Jake, a sixteen year old, both from Townsville, who
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  Speaker 1: have unfortunately fallen victim to one of these scams. Thanks
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  Speaker 1: so much for joining me on the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Haley and Jake. Now we've changed your names for privacy,
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  Speaker 1: and we've also changed the name of the place that
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  Speaker 1: you're from, just so that you can have some anonymity
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  Speaker 1: here and talk freely. Can I start with you, Jake,
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  Speaker 1: You're sixteen years old. You were fifteen when this happened?
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  Speaker 1: Can you describe where you were, what you were doing,
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  Speaker 1: and essentially what happened to end up in this online
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  Speaker 1: honey trap.
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  Speaker 3: They had just come home from school and I got
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  Speaker 3: in a conversation with someone I thought was another girl,
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  Speaker 3: and that night it turned into something more graphic.
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  Speaker 1: So just before we get into that night, you've come
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  Speaker 1: home from school and you got into a conversation with
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  Speaker 1: this girl, did you think that you knew her? Did
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  Speaker 1: she just slide into your DMS and say hi? Like,
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  Speaker 1: what was the initial beginning of the conversation? Where did
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  Speaker 1: it come from?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, just split into DM and just started talking.
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  Speaker 1: And so what did she say?
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  Speaker 2: Went from that at high.
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  Speaker 4: And eventually started asking a lot about snapchat and I
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  Speaker 4: went along with it.
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  Speaker 1: What made you go along with it? She was obviously
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  Speaker 1: somebody that you you didn't know at this point, but
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  Speaker 1: what she's good looking and she's conversational, and you're a
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  Speaker 1: sixteen year old, fifty year old boy, right.
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  Speaker 4: That thought from the picture I say further into more
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  Speaker 4: graphic pictures and messages.
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  Speaker 1: So when you say that she sent you more graphic
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  Speaker 1: pictures and messages, you suggesting that she became explicit. She
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  Speaker 1: was sending nude photos or something like that to you. Yeah, okay, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: And so as a fifteen year old boy, you're getting
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  Speaker 1: these messages and what are you thinking? Are you thinking
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  Speaker 1: all my Christmases have come at once? Or this is
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  Speaker 1: dodgy or I can't wait to tell the guys at
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  Speaker 1: school what happened last night? Like what's going on for
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  Speaker 1: you in your head while this is happening.
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  Speaker 2: There was a lot of mixed of emotions and different feelings,
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  Speaker 2: but I thought I'll just go with it then turn
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  Speaker 2: into something much worse and eventually finding out, oh, is
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  Speaker 2: it wasn't actually a girl, It was completely different.
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  Speaker 1: Something happens during the evening as you're messaging this person
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  Speaker 1: and she and I'm using she in inverted commerce because
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  Speaker 1: it obviously wasn't who you thought it was. Is sending
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  Speaker 1: you these images? Did she ask you for images of yourself?
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  Speaker 2: Yes? Then, and I go along with it.
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  Speaker 1: Because that's what you do. And I'm not trying to
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  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to soften this conversation for you to
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  Speaker 1: make this any easier. I know it's a hard conversation
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  Speaker 1: to have, but when I talk to a lot of
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  Speaker 1: adults about what their kids are doing. The adults will
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  Speaker 1: often say, I don't know why the kids would go
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  Speaker 1: along with this, like why would they go with it?
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  Speaker 1: To use your words? Surely they'd say stop, Surely they'd
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  Speaker 1: say this is crazy. But you did exactly what so
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  Speaker 1: many kids do, and you just went with it. Is
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  Speaker 1: there part of you that's just thinking maybe this is real?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, sometimes you know that it's real, but then sometimes wondering, ah,
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  Speaker 2: is it real or is it not? And in that
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  Speaker 2: situation it was not.
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  Speaker 1: Did you end up sending images, Jake? Yes, once you
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  Speaker 1: sent the images?
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  Speaker 4: What happened about five minutes. It was at that point
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  Speaker 4: I felt something was under wrong. And about the next
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  Speaker 4: minute after I thought that this person has said ruin
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  Speaker 4: your life and I'm going to.
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  Speaker 2: Send these photos to everyone, and they were threatening to
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  Speaker 2: send family, friends, to everyone.
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  Speaker 1: Even your godmother. Describe the feeling that you had when
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  Speaker 1: you realized what you just.
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  Speaker 2: Fam a victim to Terrified, definitely terrified, No, no clue,
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  Speaker 2: what clue?
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  Speaker 4: Was?
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  Speaker 2: Never happened?
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  Speaker 1: They've threatened to ruin your life. Were there any demands made?
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  Speaker 2: There wasn't. They just said we're ruined your life.
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  Speaker 1: So this isn't even about money at this point, this
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  Speaker 1: is just we've got the images, you're gone. What did
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  Speaker 1: you do once this terror hit you?
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  Speaker 2: Straight away? On a mom and a lot of feelings.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know if I wanted to do what had happened,
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  Speaker 2: because I was like get in trouble, yelled at which
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  Speaker 2: no one liked, but I knew it because if I didn't,
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  Speaker 2: it would have gone terror.
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  Speaker 1: So what'd you say, Jake, You've stepped into mum Hayley's
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  Speaker 1: room or living room or the kitchen. Where where was she?
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  Speaker 1: And what did you say?
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  Speaker 2: Oh? She she was out helping one of my siblings
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  Speaker 2: with their homework.
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  Speaker 4: I came out. She saw the look in the face
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  Speaker 4: that something bad had happened, and she she didn't know
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  Speaker 4: what and it Eventually I asked her to come into
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  Speaker 4: her room and told them wanted and she was on it.
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  Speaker 4: But she helped be helped with blocking this person whoever
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  Speaker 4: they were in, deleting Snapchat, deleting Instagram, deleting all these
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  Speaker 4: social network and eventually had no other choice the police
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  Speaker 4: and we called them and once they picked up, we
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  Speaker 4: explained exactly what happened and we asked for help and
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  Speaker 4: received nothing. We were not told, oh we just delete
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  Speaker 4: the againnt just go on with your life, and they
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  Speaker 4: just hung up. There was nothing that did.
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  Speaker 5: So it was up me and my mum who stopped
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  Speaker 5: all of them.
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  Speaker 1: Haley, I want to come to you now. Jake steps
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  Speaker 1: into the room and says I need to talk You.
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  Speaker 1: Obviously can tell from his face that things are not
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  Speaker 1: good right now. When he explains to you what has happened,
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  Speaker 1: how do you react the panic?
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  Speaker 6: He was as white as I've never seen anything like it.
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  Speaker 6: I've been a nurse for a long time, and his
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  Speaker 6: face I've never.
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  Speaker 2: Seen anything just terrifying.
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  Speaker 6: Oh, the panic in his voice. Instinct just told me
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  Speaker 6: to not to go hardcore parent on him and bring
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  Speaker 6: the hammer down, but just sort of go into Riceles's management.
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  Speaker 6: I think I'm just helping get through it.
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  Speaker 1: Once you began to address things with Jake, was there
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  Speaker 1: any sense of safety, any sense of completion, any sense
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  Speaker 1: that okay, we can get through this, or was it
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  Speaker 1: literally just anything could happen now? We don't even know
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  Speaker 1: what's next.
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  Speaker 6: It was sort of all making it up as we
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  Speaker 6: went along. We just didn't have any idea of how
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  Speaker 6: to manage it or what to do. I think I
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  Speaker 6: used the mentality that we wouldn't have this issue, and
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  Speaker 6: we wouldn't ever have this issue.
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  Speaker 1: Had you guys had conversations previously about online safety and
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  Speaker 1: making sure that you're not having interactions with people that
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  Speaker 1: you don't know. Is this something that you've discussed in
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  Speaker 1: your family and your home.
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  Speaker 6: To a degree but obviously not well enough.
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  Speaker 1: Well you say that, but when I think about when
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  Speaker 1: we did Parental Guidance season two, and we did a
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  Speaker 1: whole lot of stuff around online safety, and we saw
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  Speaker 1: parents who had been really diligent and having good conversations
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  Speaker 1: with their children about this, and their children still accepted
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  Speaker 1: invitations from strangers to engage in ways that we're not safe,
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  Speaker 1: we're not healthy. So what we see is this sort
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  Speaker 1: of disconnect between parents. So were saying, yeah, we are
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  Speaker 1: actually talking about this stuff and what kids ultimately choose
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  Speaker 1: to do. A couple of other questions as we sort
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  Speaker 1: of moved to a completion of the conversation here, Hailey,
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  Speaker 1: was there any ramification. Did those people who had taken
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  Speaker 1: images of Jake ever send them to anybody?
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  Speaker 6: As far as we know, no, they didn't off our
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  Speaker 6: own back, not with the advice of anybody. Just thinking
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  Speaker 6: how can we minimize the risk of this person being
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  Speaker 6: able to contact any of Jake's contacts. We just deleted
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  Speaker 6: or we popped this person on all the socials and
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  Speaker 6: then started deleting as many of his contacts as possible,
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  Speaker 6: and then deleting the accounts themselves.
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  Speaker 1: In a conversation recently with the Australian Center to count
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  Speaker 1: Child Exploitation or ACE, they talked about something where if
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  Speaker 1: images are taken but they're not used in a bribery
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  Speaker 1: or blackmail situation, they may be taken and used for
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  Speaker 1: other nefarious purposes. Presumably you've reported this to the police
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  Speaker 1: and now it's just a case of waiting and hoping
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  Speaker 1: that nothing more comes of it. Would that be fair
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  Speaker 1: to say, like, where does this leave you now?
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  Speaker 6: Initially we rang police link for advice as to what
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  Speaker 6: to do and how to manage the situation, and it
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  Speaker 6: seems like the person that I spoke to didn't really
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  Speaker 6: offer any advice. So you don't know what's gone together,
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  Speaker 6: and we didn't know who to report it to, so
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  Speaker 6: it stopped there.
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  Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, fortunately in your case that's where it has stopped.
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  Speaker 1: But still that idea the terror I think about what
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  Speaker 1: Jake said, I'm going to ruin your life. Just the
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  Speaker 1: feeling that that must have created at this point, Jake,
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  Speaker 1: are you back on social media? Have you created new accounts?
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  Speaker 5: No?
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  Speaker 2: Never?
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  Speaker 1: Never.
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  Speaker 2: Since that moment, I've never searched enough for anything. Nothing.
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  Speaker 1: As a family who's been through this, what advice would
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  Speaker 1: you give to others who are listening to this conversation
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  Speaker 1: and are understandably concerned that this sort of stuff could
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  Speaker 1: happen to anyone.
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  Speaker 6: The biggest piece of advice I could get is, and
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  Speaker 6: it's something that I've taken from new doctor Justin from
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  Speaker 6: early on, is to reassure your children that you love
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  Speaker 6: them and support them no matter what. And that's the
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  Speaker 6: biggest thing that I've always reinforced my family is that
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  Speaker 6: nothing that you can do, or say or will stop
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  Speaker 6: me from loving you you no matter what.
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  Speaker 1: Jake, have you felt that?
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  Speaker 2: Definitely? We didn't know what would happen after it, so
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  Speaker 2: I was very rare skinned in that moment. The next day,
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  Speaker 2: but Mum reassured me and told me that everything will
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  Speaker 2: be all right. Hopefully nothing would happen the next day,
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  Speaker 2: and she kept calm less. She's so good.
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  Speaker 1: Is there anything that you would add before we wrap things.
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  Speaker 6: Up, just keeping those of communication open and keep an
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  Speaker 6: eye on your kids commons and devices. Well, I had
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  Speaker 6: to deal with the kids that I would have open
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  Speaker 6: access to their devices and look at their contacts, you know,
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  Speaker 6: what they were looking at and who they were speaking to.
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  Speaker 6: But I never really followed through on that. I wish
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  Speaker 6: I had.
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  Speaker 1: Well, the fact Haley, that Jake came to you and
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  Speaker 1: was open about things straight away is a credit to
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  Speaker 1: you as a mum. He obviously knew that he was safe,
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  Speaker 1: and he knew that he had that unconditional regard from you.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's wonderful. Well, guys, I appreciate you sharing
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  Speaker 1: your stories so very much. Thank you for taking time
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  Speaker 1: out of your day and for being open and vulnerable
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  Speaker 1: about something that's tricky to talk about, especially in such
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  Speaker 1: a public way.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, You're welcome.
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  Speaker 1: That's Jake and Hailey from Townsville. Jake fifteen years old
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  Speaker 1: when he was approached by an online scammer. Fortunately no
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  Speaker 1: negative ramifications in terms of being exploited for money or
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  Speaker 1: having images shared, but certainly threatening, certainly terrifying, and certainly
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  Speaker 1: anything but what we want to see happening for our children.
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  Speaker 1: I know that many of you who are listening are
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  Speaker 1: going to be saying, so what do I do? What
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  Speaker 1: do I do? Tomorrow on the Happy Families Podcast, I'm
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  Speaker 1: speaking with the E Safety Commissioner, the Federal e Safety Commissioner,
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  Speaker 1: Julie Inman Grant will join me and talk about what
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  Speaker 1: families can do when this kind of thing happens. Hopefully
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  Speaker 1: we can protect our children from it. If it does happen, though,
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  Speaker 1: Julie will discuss with us what we can do to
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  Speaker 1: keep our kids safe and to make sure that there
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  Speaker 1: is no further an ongoing damage cause by people who
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  Speaker 1: have such evil and impure intent. I don't know what
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  Speaker 1: else to call it. It's just devastating. So please join
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  Speaker 1: us on the Happy Families Podcast tomorrow to hear part
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  Speaker 1: two of this very very important conversation about keeping kids
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  Speaker 1: safe online. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Ruland from Bridge Media and For more information about making
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: your family happier, we would love for you to visit
• 16:27
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