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The new (Im)moral hierarchy · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:08
  Really, if we've learned anything from these past couple of years, my fellow Marigenza is that personal medical freedom and liberty are in crisis.
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  Almeric Ralm Pulse brings together the top experts and health care related fields to keep you upbeaten ahead.
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  Join us every Friday at 5 p.m.
• 0:38
  Eastern.
• 0:39
  I'm honored today to have with us.
• 0:42
  Eric Kaufman, who's a professor of politics at the University of Birmingham in the UK.
• 0:47
  He's the author of the book The Third Awokening, a deliberate pun on the word woke.
• 0:53
  And he has a non-orthodox viewpoint in the world of social science, which otherwise leans heavily left, but he is open-minded and able to take opinions from where they come and where they land.
• 1:06
  Welcome, Eric.
• 1:08
  It's great to be here, Randy.
• 1:09
  Thanks for having me on.
• 1:11
  So tell us a little about yourself and your journey, possibly for our listeners and viewers.
• 1:16
  Yeah, so I'm uh Canadian.
• 1:19
  I'm from Vancouver.
• 1:20
  I um have been in Britain for almost 30 years uh as a professor.
• 1:25
  Um I've always been a skeptic of the cultural left uh since you know, probably in my teens.
• 1:32
  Um I haven't really changed, haven't gone through a sort of uh Maoist phase or anything like that.
• 1:38
  Um but I I I kind of, you know, I sort of didn't wasn't all that political, let's say in the early part of my career, I kind of stayed in the closet like a good boy and did my academic things.
• 1:50
  Um but I I was interested in, you know, even in my first book, which came out of my PhD uh called The Rise and Fall of Anglo America, which was really a study of the wasps and their kind of decline from the 19th century, late 19th, mainly through to the middle or middle to late 20th century.
• 2:10
  But um, I was interested in uh the liberal progressives and then the bohemian left modernists, uh Greenwich village, those kinds of people, the precursors of the 60s hippies and new left, uh and and the kind of critique that they were, you know, they were all generally a young of the cosmopolitan variety, um, and tended to be very critical of the Anglo-Protestant wasp kind of group, which I think is kind of a precursor to the white guilt that emerges in the in the late 60s and is sort of, I would argue, the kind of dominant force in our moral universe, and which takes different forms, and it can also take uh, you know, the settler colonial anti-Israel form as well.
• 2:56
  Uh, but but this is kind of just a broader orientation, ideological orientation, which I was I've been interested in for probably almost 30 years, as part of the story of uh I was interested again in in ethnic transformations and changes in national identity, and I was arguing I think the cultural left liberalism was a major part of that story, both in the decline of the wasp, if you like, and then also more recently in the sort of anti-white orientation.
• 3:26
  So having grown up in Canada, um do you see that as a do you see it as a kind of an active movement to um eschew to uh shed the uh kind of waspy aspect?
• 3:47
  Um the you know, Canada is you know, pretty strictly a wasp nation when I was growing up.
• 3:53
  Um I mean, obviously there's the French, you know, is a French Canada and Anglo-Canada, I get that, but you know, pretty predominantly almost exclusively white, and and there's been a huge influx and um you know, seemed like more than open door policy, but an open door policy with it, you know, attractance and so forth to totally remake Canada.
• 4:14
  And um, you know, it there's like if you get rid of something just because you kind of have this cultural uh self-hatred, then you come up with something better.
• 4:25
  It seems like there's always this aspirational aspect, you know, you're talking about kind of 1960s radicals and whatnot in Greenwich Village or maybe maybe 1950s, where um, you know, they had kind of romance to them because their policies didn't have to work.
• 4:40
  But now we see, you know, when they actually take the reins of power, they're they're brutal.
• 4:44
  You know, it's like um the the all the niceties of the tolerant people go out the window.
• 4:50
  And I apologize for the the roundabout intro to that concept, but you know, how what is that?
• 4:55
  I mean, you're a social scientist and uh observer and whatnot.
• 4:58
  What is the this kind of aspect of I think self-hatred that that comes around and without the realization that you know you your ideas were nurtured by a regime by uh wealth and so forth, allow you to have these kind of luxury beliefs.
• 5:12
  Yeah, yeah.
• 5:13
  No, I think, you know, and I and I should say also growing up, because you talked about Canada and I grew up in uh Canada, and you're right, really up until you know 1970, it was like you know, 98% white or thereabouts, and and I was almost like an ethnic minority in a in a you know my school where it was probably 80% wasp, and I was kind of like you know, half Jewish, and and a bit of this and a bit of them.
• 5:36
  Um so this but but yeah, there's been this self-hatred in both countries.
• 5:41
  I think it's fair to say a very similar process.
• 5:44
  Um, and the thing is I don't I don't see this as so much psychological, and that could be because I'm more sociologically oriented.
• 5:53
  What I see this is as a competing idea to let's just say ethnicity, you know, wasp ethnicity or nationalism, this kind of tradition that you've inherited.
• 6:04
  Um there was a different set of ideas which were left liberal cosmopolitan ideas, uh, and also modernist idea, the idea of that uh the new and different is valuable, the old and traditional is stifling.
• 6:19
  That kind of uh sensibility in the arts, you see it in art um in painting and architecture, these that kind of sensibility is kind of important for Bohemia.
• 6:30
  It kind of informs their view that that was they you know, they don't drink, they don't dance.
• 6:34
  Some of that stuff was true, but but the idea that they're um a uh confining not creative force compared to the spicy immigrants from initially from Europe, later from elsewhere.
• 6:47
  Um, and I think what happens is so you have already have you know, Horace Callan and Randolph Bourne in the US talking about multi-really kind of multiculturalism.
• 6:56
  Uh, you know, I'm much I I'm more sympathetic to Callan, because I thought at least he gave a place to the wasps, whereas Bourne just wanted the wasps to be cosmopolitans and get over their ethnicity, whereas everyone else should cling to it.
• 7:10
  So it was very um schizophrenic, kind of not consistent uh uh approach.
• 7:16
  But um really that Randolph Bourne style, what I call asymmetrical multiculturalism, ethnicity great for uh minority and immigrant groups is terrible for the native majority.
• 7:27
  That that outlook then becomes the basis of Canadian multiculturalism policy 1971, which is when the Trudeau government, Pierre Trudeau, the father to Justin, uh, who they're both in many ways is reprehensible.
• 7:40
  Well, uh Justin's worse, but it's at least Pierre had a brain.
• 7:44
  Um but um so that that was kind of the beginning of and what multiculturalism is basically is a repudiation of uh waspdom, and that's basically what it is, uh, implicitly, even though it's talking up the particular minorities.
• 7:58
  The only commonality there is is uh hostility to, and this is one reason why you know you never really had a place for being British or wasp in the Canadian mosaic.
• 8:09
  But in any case, it's the same motivation.
• 8:11
  Now, the difference there are some differences.
• 8:13
  So the the initial bohemian um cosmopolitanism, anti-waspness was more, I would say, aesthetic and artistic.
• 8:24
  It was about, oh, uh the established tradition is confining and parochial and not very interesting.
• 8:32
  And so it's more like an artistic rebellion.
• 8:35
  The post-1960s version, however, is much more uh political, the left side of things.
• 8:41
  So it's much more about oppression, domination and injustice, and that kind of theme, which was which was not as central for the bohemian um village and New York intellectual kind of modernism.
• 8:56
  That stuff was maybe a latent theme.
• 8:58
  It wasn't the main theme.
• 8:59
  Um, but I still think there's a continuity between both cultural left's leftist movements.
• 9:06
  Um, and that is really, I think the dominant that's the winner through two world wars, whereas communism really loses in many ways.
• 9:14
  Um likewise, you know, uh nationalism also fascism loses.
• 9:21
  What kind of comes through the middle is this cultural left, which which really we're living through.
• 9:26
  So the cultural left kind of emerges victorious, and for that reason it has no guardrails, and it just simply can go to an extreme incrementally over decades.
• 9:35
  And and I think that's kind of where we've ended up.
• 9:40
  So do you see that same pattern and pathway?
• 9:43
  I know right now you're in the UK.
• 9:45
  Um throughout Europe.
• 9:47
  And I, you know, I was listening to you elsewhere when you're talking about the immigration um in to the United States and to a lesser extent Canada, being somewhat similar culturally, you know, in the
• 10:00
  Christian realm, you get people from Latin America.
• 10:03
  Um in uh Europe, it she seems seems to be obviously a far more um uh brazen kind of difference um and a lot of threat to the underlying uh concepts and precepts that that brought the civilization to flower and flourish um throughout you know previous 500 700 years or whatever um and it just seems like the project is obviously got a little bit more of an applique, a little bit like Canada's in migration.
• 10:35
  The US has been, you know, the melting pot kind of thing and had a lot more uh people come through uh centuries in a sense, and um, you know, a lot of waves of immigration for the um Europe, it's it's a newer phenomenon.
• 10:49
  Um what are the fissures and fractures that that you might see, if any, um, that are going on in the UK and and how how does it kind of come out from this?
• 10:58
  Um it seems like it's in kind of the digestive process right now, but I'm not sure who's eating whom.
• 11:04
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:06
  Uh a nice uh kind of culinary uh digestive metaphor there, but um you know, yeah, you're right.
• 11:14
  First of all, there is a you know the Muslim component of the non-white population is higher in Europe.
• 11:22
  Um, you know, take Britain is let's take England, it's it's maybe 20 to 25 percent non-white.
• 11:31
  Um Islam, well, six and a half percent Muslim.
• 11:35
  Let's say it's probably about a third of the non-white population, because there's a lot of Hindus and Sikhs and West Indians and African Christians as well.
• 11:44
  Um, but but it's a larger share.
• 11:46
  France, it's a much larger, you know, France is maybe 10% Muslim.
• 11:50
  Um the projections for which and and a number of projections show that this these numbers, Britain is going to be about 17% Muslim in 2050, Frank, you know, a lot of European Sweden will be in that neighborhood.
• 12:06
  Um, Netherlands, France are going to be in the you know, it'll be in the mid-teens.
• 12:10
  And that's it's not going to be 50%.
• 12:12
  It's not going to be a takeover for a whole bunch of reasons.
• 12:14
  One of which is that the Muslim birth rates globally have come down a lot, and the um Muslim share of immigration is probably below 20% in um certainly in Britain.
• 12:26
  I'm not as familiar with the flow in France, though.
• 12:29
  I mean, it could be different, but I don't think the issue is majority status.
• 12:33
  I think the issue is more though that already at 6.5%, we are getting Islam-shaping election results in certain key constituencies and put putting pressure on British foreign policy.
• 12:47
  So you just have to take that number and uh multiply by two and a half by 2050.
• 12:52
  And the influence is going to be just that much more dramatic.
• 12:55
  Uh, we also the thing about, say, British Muslims is they have very high mobilizing capacity because they're a much more religious population.
• 13:04
  And because they're at mosques, they can be organized.
• 13:07
  And so some of these kind of anti-Israel pro-Palestine marches, uh, now which are also involving a lot of white leftists, but but you know, you're getting hundreds of thousands in these marches uh from all over England.
• 13:20
  So that they're a very mobilized community.
• 13:22
  They will vote as a bloc in certain constituencies.
• 13:26
  So that it's not so much the numbers per se as the mobilizing capacity that's the difference.
• 13:33
  Um, what does that mean going forward?
• 13:36
  Yeah, I mean, I think look, I'd say the same kind of ideological forces are in at play in Britain as in the US and Canada, which is really around the ascendancy of the cultural left in all institutions, including the judiciary, including all the rulemaking, anything that's away from democratic contestation and control is basically in the hands of the cultural left.
• 14:00
  Um, and so immigration is something that they would be pushing for and and without any distinction, without any kind of criteria around culture.
• 14:10
  That would be seen as racism immediately, which is this sort of all-purpose label that is wheeled out to try and narrow the narrow the field of debate.
• 14:19
  So, yeah, I think the but of course it's going to lead to big demographic changes.
• 14:23
  So Britain will, you know, the the ethnic majority in Britain will fall below 50% in the 2060s.
• 14:31
  Uh most of the immigrant receiving West European countries, it'll be late in the century.
• 14:36
  The ethnic majority falls below 50%.
• 14:38
  In the US, that's like 2050, although, as you say, obviously the Hispanics are kind of in-between group, which is less, there's less clearly you've got that kind of group here in Europe.
• 14:50
  Um, and yeah, but it is, of course, causing a significant backlash.
• 14:53
  We can see the populist right has been rising and rising and rising with a slight dip during the pandemic, but basically pretty unbroken for the last it's now 12 years since the breakthroughs in 2014 in the European elections.
• 15:09
  So we're moving into just much more contested political terrain, and you just have to look at who's in front, who's leading the polls in country after country.
• 15:18
  Uh so in Britain reform is the top party.
• 15:21
  It's um led by Nigel Farage, it's polling around 30% of the vote, uh, which is well ahead of the the next largest party might be labor at around 20 or 21%.
• 15:34
  So I mean, yeah, big changes are afoot, but there's no question that uh national life.
• 15:40
  So it's not just the rise of the minorities, but it's also the influence that they may have over public life.
• 15:46
  You mentioned the chilling effect, of course.
• 15:48
  Um, you know, we've had incidents of uh, you know, uh, for example, uh a guy who Turkish guy burning the Quran and he was speaking up, and they you know, they didn't they didn't want to they wanted to prosecute him, you know.
• 16:02
  That's that's the sort of uh British government wanting to prosecute the guy who burned the Quran.
• 16:07
  Um and in other cases, teachers who won show to picture the Prophet Muhammad, he's been in hiding.
• 16:14
  This teacher's been in hiding for for you know for years.
• 16:17
  So, yeah, I mean the the ability to have a kind of de facto fatwa over public life, uh very much exists.
• 16:27
  And so that chills free speech in many ways.
• 16:32
  And we see it a lot.
• 16:34
  It's kind of funny that um all these concepts of tolerance, you know, only go towards essentially um, I don't want to use the word enemy, but those that are not necessarily tolerant themselves.
• 16:47
  You know, it's uh you know, we we I'll give you just a quick example.
• 16:53
  Uh it's not quite an example, but I'll just put it out there anyway.
• 16:56
  Uh there's a guy Jaden Ivey, I don't know if you heard this.
• 16:58
  Uh he's in the NBA player.
• 16:59
  He's a he was a top traffic, I think, number five or seven in the draft, maybe three or four years ago.
• 17:04
  And I saw him initially got a lot of pop in his step, but he's fallen out of favor and he got traded uh from the uh pistons to the bulls, and he's injured, and so he's out of play anyway, so he's not playing.
• 17:15
  So it was easy to cut him, but he um, you know, I don't know if it's Pride Month or something like that, but the NBA is you know, has a lot of you know rainbow regalia and whatnot, and and that's kind of its own religion as woke aspect is and he uh he didn't go out out of his way to do anything.
• 17:34
  He didn't, you know, he just I think on Instagram said it it wasn't righteous.
• 17:39
  I think was the word he used, it was unrighteous, I think, is his phrasing.
• 17:43
  And um, he's a follower of Christ and um believer, and and um, you know, this there's all this tolerance, but except for the kind of the the groups that have brought about the concept of tolerance.
• 17:57
  And you know, the NBA said, oh, we can't, you know, we can't tolerate this, you know, because it's ruining, you know, the the free flow of ideas, it's you know, and it's not, I mean, it's exactly the opposite.
• 18:08
  It's kind of funny given his name.
• 18:10
  You know, I made a pun um, he's Jaden Ivy, and the NBA is basically a jaded Ivy league.
• 18:18
  Um and and in a sense, because they're duplicating exactly what the Ivy League does, you know, academically, um, where in you can have points of view, you know, you can have any point of view as long as it agrees with the predominant.
• 18:31
  And if you have a belief system, then you know, my thought experiment was, you know, if he had been Muslim.
• 18:36
  We see kind of this quiet from Islam on this topic, but you know, here he is a Christian, and and following kind of a lot of the belief system that came out of, you know, at least deists and Christian followers of the you know American revolution to bring about a lot of the liberties on which we have so many freedoms, and you know, the free market is kind of ancillary to those other uh freedoms of subsidiary and whatnot, but he gets tossed aside and and gleefully so, and then everyone kind of has gone out of these these teaching moments about how you can have these opinions, but you've got to keep them to yourself.
• 19:08
  We're gonna have to take a break right here.
• 19:10
  So stick around with us for our second segment with Professor Eric Kaufman.
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• 22:11
  So we're going to continue talking about the concept of liberty and freedom and what it means in our society.
• 22:18
  And you know, that there's uh you know, an old Hillary quote where she favors the right to worship, but you know, not kind of the right of you know, freedom of religion, which is I think two different things.
• 22:30
  So you can kind of worship quietly, like maybe you could do in the Soviet if you were you know old or something like that, but not in the public sphere.
• 22:36
  If you're public sphere, you kind of follow the party line.
• 22:39
  Yeah, I mean, yeah, so you know, no, no, I mean, this is really, I think, revealing.
• 22:43
  Um, and essentially the way the system, what it is, is there's a belief system, and it works a bit like a pack of cards where you have higher value cards and lower value cards, uh, or or you can think of it as oppression points.
• 22:57
  Uh Musa Al-Garbi in his book uh actually has does a good job of of talking about this academically.
• 23:03
  So there's what he calls totemic capital, which is what you might think of as the academic version of oppression points or uh higher value in the pack of cards.
• 23:13
  So, yeah, I mean, what you know, if you, for example, had a player who was Muslim, he would actually have a higher value in that pack of cards and may be able to say no to pride month or whatever it is, um, because he has the totemic capital to do that.
• 23:27
  But if you're a Christian, you don't have that capital, uh, and therefore you have to stand behind.
• 23:32
  So it's it's like with these kind of concepts.
• 23:34
  I don't know if you've heard of this concept called the progressive stack, you know, basically where you if you are, you know, black, lesbian, trans, whatever, the more points you have, you speak first, and it's the white man speaking last, or uh the privilege walk where you know you take two more steps if you have more privilege.
• 23:53
  So this is really what the whole system is like a totem pole or pack of cards.
• 23:58
  And um, yeah, but it is very interesting to see when you have battles among so you know, like women have certain number of points uh because of the feminist uh, you know, the feminist narrative, but not as many points as trans, so they have to sort of make way, but then that leads to clashes.
• 24:16
  Um you know, on the other hand, what what's quite interesting is it's you'll have black feminists who will accuse white feminists of being racist and break, you know, you can have divisions in the feminist movement.
• 24:28
  It's much harder for females in let's just say black radical or indigenous radical movements to split those movements because race arguably has higher totemic capital than sex, and so it's quite you know, you can see where in fact they're not able to do it.
• 24:45
  And and so sexism is not something that's been played up very much in um you know, black or indigenous movements or perhaps Islamic movements either.
• 24:56
  Uh, but yeah, very very interesting to see how that all works.
• 25:00
  Yeah, I call it um intersectional rock, paper, scissors.
• 25:03
  Uh right, right.
• 25:05
  Not my phrase, but uh somebody wrote at some point when liberal when liberal pieties collide, you know, I would actually you know call it leftist pieties collide, you know.
• 25:15
  I forget what it was, uh oh it was some time ago, probably 15, 20 years ago.
• 25:20
  It was a um out west someplace.
• 25:22
  Um there was a you know Native American tribe, and they run their horses down a hill.
• 25:29
  Um, and the horses may tumble, they may die, but it's a rite of passage for the young bucks and so forth to you know, do this race, and I don't know if they wind up in uh a lake or something, whatever.
• 25:40
  It's a very trying race, and the horses don't do well.
• 25:43
  So the PETA people, you know, the key, you know, against you know, ethical treatment of animals.
• 25:49
  Um they they were all up in arms, and they're like, oh, you know, we we're hurting these horses, you know.
• 25:55
  Some like I don't know, one out of ten horses die during this race, they have their necks broken, whatever it is.
• 26:00
  Oh, well, and mind you, the kids might as well.
• 26:02
  And everyone's like, oh my god, but you can't because this is the Native American ritual, they've been doing this for thousands of years, and the and you know, and obviously at this point, you know, certain places have made the the mountains have voting rights and they're you know embodiments of humans, the mountain was sacred, it's a person.
• 26:16
  This is what the person, whatever.
• 26:18
  And it's like, you know, you just go nuts over this stuff because it's like, oh well, you know, it's rock, paper, scissors.
• 26:23
  Like, I don't know who who who who wins that one.
• 26:25
  And it's yeah, it's a bit yeah.
• 26:27
  I mean, it's a bit like the uh how al slaughter and um you know the the fact that halal is is you know there are some canteens in British schools that are halal only, you know, and yet you know this slaughter is seen as inhumane, right?
• 26:40
  But I mean, yeah, there are exemptions made uh again because minorities have more totemic capital than animals, but whereas if you imagine if it was some uh evangelical Christian sect doing this, then they'd be in instantly banned.
• 26:54
  Um so yeah, I mean that's exactly how this works.
• 26:57
  It's not a rational, there's no logical principle here.
• 27:01
  It's it's just emotional points, uh, and who has more oppression points in the system.
• 27:08
  Which is one of the, I mean, one of the points I make in my book is that this is really about it's really about the volume of emotions and what is sacred, and if you transgress the sacred, you are cancelled effectively.
• 27:22
  Uh it's all an emotional system.
• 27:24
  It's not really a coherent system of ideas, like let us say liberalism, or even you know, I mean, Marxism is a system of ideas where you have this whole theory about you know the uh the rise of different classes and and the coming of the worker state and the falling rate of profit and all these kinds of none of this is not really an intellectualizing even a Marxist, which which isn't empirically grounded, but it was not that kind of intellectual system.
• 27:54
  It's much more, it's all about emotion, like who you know, minority's good, majority bad, uh, which minorities are higher up the chain, and and it's all feeling feeling-driven, uh, utterly emotional.
• 28:07
  I mean, this is really what this ideology is.
• 28:11
  Isn't it also frankly, just uh uh um power jujitsu that that people have you know, water flows, you know, to the lowest spot.
• 28:22
  And and people game systems, and so people will try to do things that will uh make the water flow towards themselves.
• 28:31
  They'll try to put up dams and bridges and whatnot.
• 28:34
  It seems to me like a lot of this is just kind of a tweak that um outgroups have figured out the weakness of the upper group.
• 28:42
  And the upper group uh is it seems to be um you know totally impossible to get out of its own way.
• 28:48
  You know, there's that uh image of the guy watering a little uh shrub, um sapling and whatever, and it's got a noose um, you know, tied a rope tied as a noose to his neck, and he keeps watering it.
• 29:02
  The tree's gonna grow eventually, it's gonna hang it.
• 29:04
  But he can't see that.
• 29:06
  Um it just seems like you know, the the uh again, I think this is social science, it's not really science, but that somebody came up and I I can't find out who I can't find out who I Googled it, the hamburger theory of of social class politics.
• 29:22
  So there's a hamburger as uh there's an American item, uh, and I in a Canadian and British, I'm just kidding.
• 29:28
  But anyway, the the two buns are the softer, fluffier parts in the upper class and the and the lower class, those are now on the left in a sense, and the middle class is the meat, and that's kind of has the sense essence of meat, the functional part, the nutrient part of your grouping.
• 29:42
  So for the people who are doing stuff, your HVAC guy, uh you know, the people um you know doing your taxes, whatever, you know, that that's kind of the meat.
• 29:49
  And they they're running businesses, they tend to be more conservative.
• 29:52
  And the people who have are on the upper upper class, they have the money, they don't understand how they got it.
• 29:56
  They might be error, you know, like John Carey, uh, you know, marrying the money, whatever.
• 30:00
  And so they they have these you know love luxury beliefs, they they worry about guilt, they don't want to be called names, uh, you know, they have the vapors, they worry about getting the the lower classes rising up against them, they want to inoculate themselves.
• 30:11
  I'm one of the good people, therefore I'm I'm pro-Palestine, I'm pro this and pro whatever.
• 30:16
  And the bottom part where kind of all the juices seek from the middle class, they're absorbing that as their own nutrients, whatever.
• 30:22
  And but of they're of a type with the upper bun, and that kind of is in league against the middle.
• 30:28
  So you have kind of this the pressure on the middle from the top and the bottom.
• 30:32
  Yeah, I mean, that's interesting.
• 30:33
  And I think that probably is a good metaphor for certainly when when we were in an age of class politics, and you had, you know, you still had working some working class Marxists, uh, and then you had the upper class intellectuals who were Marxist, and that they those two work together.
• 30:51
  The only thing is nowadays, I think that that, even though, yes, so there's a correlation between cultural conservatism and class, in the sense that the working class, because they're more invested in um ascribed identities such as nation are are going to be more conservative.
• 31:10
  And in today's voting, they would vote for the right more.
• 31:13
  Uh, so there is definitely a correlation there, and the upper class uh more invested in portable professional virtual type identities, which are more mobile, they're more cosmopolitan.
• 31:24
  Um, so there's some correlation, but most of it is not actually captured by economic class.
• 31:31
  Um, you know, a majority of even even in the US, a majority of white college graduates voted for Trump, for example.
• 31:40
  Um, and and so I think, but but where the difference is is psychological, it's it's it's mainly psychological.
• 31:47
  That is people who are who see change rapid change as loss or difference as more disorderly, or which is that's an orientation that's as much as half heritable.
• 31:58
  Yes, it it correlates to some degree with being working class, but it's it's it's only a partial correlation.
• 32:04
  There's a lot of kind of you know, relatively poor artists and librarians.
• 32:09
  Uh it's so this is one reason why education level is a better predictor of populist voting or woke beliefs than income.
• 32:18
  It's not so much material, but it's more kind of cultural.
• 32:22
  Education is closer to that.
• 32:24
  And it and it's even more psychological.
• 32:26
  That is, if you are one of these people who uh likes difference and change more uh then you are going to be inclined to the well left more, um, as then somebody who wants continuity and stability and security.
• 32:40
  So I kind of uh so so the way it maps onto class is tricky, I would say.
• 32:46
  Um the lower class are really not woke in any significant way, or or necessarily even left-wing voters nowadays.
• 32:57
  Um and the upper class is also is more likely to vote left, but they're quite divided in other ways as well.
• 33:05
  So I guess I I think the class analysis, like I know uh there's a number of theorists like Bacha Ungar Sargon, for example, or even Vivek Ramaswamy and others that try and bring a kind of class analysis to this.
• 33:17
  I I don't think that's the main way, best way of understanding what's going on.
• 33:22
  I think it's more people psychological makeup, um, which is only partially correlated with class.
• 33:29
  That's kind of my kind of roundabout way of getting at this.
• 33:33
  Because if you look at the kind of upper team, you know, the upper class white liberal, um, and it's very often the professional class white liberal rather than the landed wealth, sometimes it's the landed wealth, but those people are really trying to appeal to racial minorities, trans feminism, not necessarily the poor per se.
• 33:58
  I mean, there's a correlation again, but it's I I do think this cultural thing is a little bit different from the older uh class based politics.
• 34:07
  Yeah, I I'm I'm gonna probably reserve on that.
• 34:11
  I I have to think about it.
• 34:12
  I mean, it's interesting, you know.
• 34:14
  I do think we had this no kings rally.
• 34:16
  Um you have a king in the UK, so they call it the no tyrants rally.
• 34:21
  Um but you know, if you should look at the people showing up for that kind of thing, you know, they're you know, wealthy older people, um, they're not necessarily the the you know the ruling class, they're not necessarily the entrepreneurial or business CEO class and so forth, where I think kind of stick, you know, stay away from this kind of thing.
• 34:39
  But you know, the the pal the pro Hamas rallies, it's hard to believe there's a thing.
• 34:47
  Um, you know, that that tends to be, you know, people on the dole, uh, because you know, uh the immigrants who are receiving benefits are you know far higher percentage than um say the uh hereditary um crowd, you know, long-term uh residents of the country.
• 35:05
  Um so I anyway, leaving I don't want to push that too much, but I I think there's probably a little mix of all these things.
• 35:11
  Uh sort of kind of hard.
• 35:14
  Um, but I was gonna talk to, you know, maybe ask you about uh something related to in a way, um, you know, because there are these protests and whatever, and what are they, you know, what are they up to?
• 35:25
  What are they doing?
• 35:26
  Um you know, the Vietnam War uh could probably have been prosecuted um adequately to completion.
• 35:33
  Um, you know, and and in it in the and the fact that it wasn't, you know, led to uh you know the old expression hilarity ensued, but the opposite, you know, they I was actually the uh Yale alumni event last night of people of my age group, uh 1970s graduates, and uh it's pretty funny because you know, it's a group that that did well, um, you know, upper class elites and whatnot.
• 35:59
  And you know, there's a kind of a tacit assumption that everyone there is on the left.
• 36:04
  Um, and so a guy, you know, is an accomplished architect, retired, whatever, you know, he was talking about uh Trump's I'm not even joking, literally, and again I can't use literally, but you know, he he meant figuratively, but he's like lit Trump is literally Hitler, nobody can literally be Hitler after Hitler is dead, uh, because he didn't have any offspring, and the name is rather unique.
• 36:26
  I think it was a uh made-up word by the uh Schnitzgrubbel, uh, whatever his name is Schnitzgruber, whatever.
• 36:32
  Oh, yeah, Schickelgruber.
• 36:33
  Yeah, there you go.
• 36:34
  Schickelgruber, the great the grandfather changed his name to something that was you know, not in have phones in it, but it was not in the phone book.
• 36:41
  So Hitler is not really a common name, it's just a made-up name.
• 36:44
  But anyway, you know, Trump is literally Hitler.
• 36:47
  And I asked him to, you know, name you know a couple things that Hitler did.
• 36:50
  I mean, I don't see him, you know, annexing um uh you know, countries, whatever is like, oh yeah, Greenland, he and he's in he's annexing Venezuela, he's annexing Cuba, you know, like dude.
• 37:01
  I think it's more like you know, uh liberating, you know, be more like Eisenhower Patton, um, something like that.
• 37:06
  If you wanted to have like him be literally somebody who's dead.
• 37:10
  Um, but you know, it's just kind of so here's the question part.
• 37:14
  Um, you know, here we have this Iran war, which you know, Brett Stevens and others have pointed out that if you put this in front of that generation, the greatest generation, Eisenhower, whatever, that you had a war where you totally obliterated, you know, you did basically in a couple weeks what we tried to do against Germany over over years, and and not only over years, but with with massive casualties in the hundreds of thousands, um, and deaths, you know, in across the board in the millions, so forth, and to have this done, you know, you know, I actually know surgeons who are not as neat as this.
• 37:44
  So to call it surgical, is almost you know, an insult to the military precision that's going on, um, because a lot of blood when you do surgery, but you know, it just like seems like there's nothing that could ever do to be make them happy.
• 37:59
  And so the way that the Vietnam War was was, you know, won by communists in a sense was was here, wasn't one necessarily on the battlefield so much in in the you know Walter Crockite, um, you know, Huntley and Brickley uh world of communication and so forth, and they're trying to do it in a much faster way by obliterating you know, the the you know, does that song accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, get rid of Mr.
• 38:22
  in between, kind of the opposite of that, where you just only see the negative, and somehow, you know, the Iran war is is horrible, we have to get out midterms, blah, blah, blah.
• 38:32
  And that the war gets prosecuted, not on the battlefield, but you know, if if the you know mullet mulocracy um can hang around just a little bit longer, or the RGC, you know, it's analog with with arms, then they can just wait us out, you know, four weeks, six weeks, whatever, and then just go back to doing, and we'll we'll be onto something else.
• 38:52
  We we're the AD, you know, ADHD country, right?
• 38:56
  And they they win just because you know, a few newspapers, whatever.
• 38:59
  I uh how does that all pan out?
• 39:01
  What are your thoughts on that?
• 39:02
  Yeah, so so much there, it's so interesting.
• 39:04
  I mean, the first thing I'd say is that there is a new paradigm post-60s, um, where the left is more powerful.
• 39:13
  Um, and I do think that race is a crucial lever for the left to gain power.
• 39:18
  So, you know, Shelby Steele in his book White Guild talks about um he he was a black American, he lived through the civil rights movement.
• 39:26
  He grew up in the South, and he argues this was a transfer of cultural power, whereas used to be that uh the blacks used to have to kowtow to the whites, now is the other way around because they by admitting guilt, you you more or less put yourself in a culturally lower position.
• 39:43
  Um what happens actually is that the left leans into the the black identity of who now possess the cultural power and the whites who have a loss of innocence and a loss of cultural power.
• 39:58
  So that the the left by identifying
• 40:00
  With the oppressed black population partakes of its cultural power and puts the right on the defensive.
• 40:06
  And that's kind of the operating paradigm, which gives a lot of power to the left.
• 40:10
  So now attached to that, we have a whole bunch of other movements.
• 40:14
  It could be anti-war, it could be war on poverty or whatever that can be then pasted on to that fundamental cultural power which comes out of civil rights, which the left manages to code as its own, even though actually more Republicans than Democrats voted for it.
• 40:31
  But in any case, that that's sort of the beginning.
• 40:34
  The other thing is, of course, this urban rioting.
• 40:37
  Protest is essentially a left-wing activity and urban left-wing activity.
• 40:42
  And whenever the right has the audacity to turn out, like here with Tommy Robinson or with even the Canadian truckers, you know, and this is seen as just the liberal media is just a ghast.
• 40:53
  This is somehow a fascist thing.
• 40:54
  When the when the right protests is fascism, and when the left protests, that's just normal.
• 40:59
  And that's kind of the world we live in.
• 41:02
  Yeah, it's public health, actually.
• 41:04
  You know, I'm old enough to remember, you know, the this uh weird period uh called 2020, uh, where uh the George Floyd riots, the Sturgis motorcycle rally was a public health scourge to have you know 50,000 bikers show up in uh one of which Dakota, North Dakota.
• 41:22
  Um that that was a horrible, horrible thing.
• 41:25
  Um, and it's the only time they ever cared about bikers or their their health, whatever.
• 41:29
  And apparently, you know, if you looked at the Flux, you know, the the post uh Sturgis rally uh blips in COVID cases was really nil.
• 41:37
  Um but but you know, a couple months later, uh in you know, adjacent uh Minnesota, Minneapolis, um it was okay to riot over uh frankly uh false flag uh kind of uh item you know grandisement of of uh you know a sad case, but um and that was literally deemed to be public health worthy because it's it's okay to get rid of your mask because you're doing this other public health thing, which is I don't know, cleansing the soul of your you know race, whatever.
• 42:10
  Um all that stuff that that had to be done, and then the place had to be burned.
• 42:14
  So on that happy note, we're gonna take our second break.
• 42:17
  So stick around with us for our third segment with Professor Erica Kaufman.
• 42:21
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• 43:46
  Welcome back.
• 43:47
  I'm Dr.
• 43:48
  Randall Bach, unpacking myths, exploring innovations.
• 43:51
  And I'm doing that today with Professor Eric Kaufman, who's a very brave voice in the world of social science and politics at the university level.
• 44:01
  And unfortunate rarity, but fortunately our guest.
• 44:05
  So we're going to return to the concept of what kind of speech is protected and what type of religion, whether it's woke as a religion or traditional regions, are allowed to prosper in today's society, including, for instance, the NBA.
• 44:19
  Jaden Ivey has say the more traditional religion.
• 44:22
  And you know, say what you will about it, you know, it has kind of a longer track record of you know societal cohesion.
• 44:28
  And you know, you can argue that all you know Europe's glories came from kind of a rigor of Catholicism applique over time.
• 44:37
  Uh again, with with its ups and downs, whatever.
• 44:40
  But what you wind up here is is some different religion, whether it's you know, this woke religion, uh, you know, the the with the it's it's you know, saints like George Floyd and Greta, uh, you know, are those better, are those better saints?
• 44:54
  I mean, I I would argue probably not.
• 44:56
  Um, I'm not well, of course, part of it is there's no redemption uh route, of course, in the it's it's a very unforgiving religion.
• 45:06
  If it's it's it's kind of like if you are the fallen, i.e.
• 45:10
  white male, straight, whatever you are, there's really no route back other than to basically prostrate yourself as a sort of ally and always um show that you're one of the good, the good whites and not one of the fallen ones.
• 45:23
  But I think it kind of gets to an interesting aspect of this, which is this whole term empathy, which is used heavily by the woke left.
• 45:34
  But of course, as Paul Bloom in his book Against Empathy, the Yale political philosopher, I believe, or is he yes, I think he's political philosopher, but who does some psychology.
• 45:45
  But um, the whole idea of empathy is you know, it's empathy for certain groups, say black, indigenous, trans, whatever, um, but it is also turning off any empathy towards, let's say, the white working class, let's say men, you know, so Christians or conservatives.
• 46:04
  And in this case, you're talking about a Christian who so there's absolutely no quarter given, no empathy at all for uh some groups and and complete empathy for it's very kind of um hypocritical, schizophrenic kind of approach.
• 46:19
  So the idea that they are being empathetic is simply not true.
• 46:22
  One of the reasons that this whole trans thing's interesting is because you're pitting a group with some points, which is women against another group, which has more points, which is trans women.
• 46:32
  Um and so what you see is you know, the the trans activist movement, which is still dominant on the left, they would have empathy for the trans woman entering the women's space, but no empathy for the women who have has this man in a skirt entering.
• 46:46
  But I think it's a perfect illustration of where it's but of course they will they will airbrush out the fact that the rights of those women have been violated, and they'll just talk about trans rights instead of what it really is, which is a clash of rights.
• 47:00
  Similarly, if we talk about a clash of rights between a Christian who doesn't want to be forced to wear something, and then somebody uh, you know, business owner wants to essentially make all his employees wear something.
• 47:14
  Um these aren't just clashes of rights which need to be adjudicated in a democratic manner by the views of the majority, actually in a democracy.
• 47:21
  That's what democracy is.
• 47:23
  Uh so yeah, very interesting the way they will narrate these as some kind of you know, rights struggle without any of the kind of trade-offs and complexities there.
• 47:34
  But but yeah, empathy is very much a partial.
• 47:38
  Uh and the flip side of empathy, of course, is you hate whoever is um the source of suffering for the people you're empathetic towards.
• 47:46
  And so you actually dehumanize whoever you see as the oppressor.
• 47:50
  So this the flip side again of this so-called politics of empathy is a is a kind of politics of dehumanization.
• 47:57
  Uh there have been academic studies showing this that people who are told to um think about white privilege, become less sympathetic to poor people uh who are white when shown pictures.
• 48:10
  So there's kind of uh because the thing about empathy is you can only focus it narrowly, and because it's emotional, you can only focus it narrowly generally.
• 48:17
  Uh, and so the emphasis on empathy really leads to a kind of coldness and dehumanization of out groups.
• 48:25
  Um and and they'll dress this up as empathy and rights, but it's actually just different groups and different rights that they're focused on.
• 48:33
  Yeah, and there's a few points there interesting.
• 48:34
  First of all, rights I always see as a zero-sum game.
• 48:37
  And and you know, many other things are not.
• 48:40
  Uh getting back to the NBA for a second, when two teams trade, you know, the the Adam Smithian view of the world is that wealth comes through trade.
• 48:48
  And people have a hard time with that because they think, well, a trade is taking things that are equal, you just move them around from A to B.
• 48:54
  So therefore, you know, wealth, the the Marxian view of wealth is that it's oppression, but you only get money by by rape and pillage and and subjugation, slavery and whatnot, and that every bit of wealth is is you know ill ill-begotten and immoral and so forth.
• 49:10
  But you know, get getting to, you know, my I actually love the NBA, despite the season of its leader, um, because I think it's really incredible, you know, action and play and things you've never seen people at the maximum of their you know uh fitness and willing to do things.
• 49:25
  I mean you can't really watch war, you know, that much, but you know, people kind of played war out in chess or other games, whatever.
• 49:31
  And so this is kind of a uh kind of a I think innate aspect.
• 49:35
  Um, but you know, when there's a trade, you know, both teams get better many, many, many, many times.
• 49:41
  And it's an oddity.
• 49:43
  Because you figure, well, this guy got, you know, this team got rid of this anyway.
• 49:46
  So sometimes it's a future gain for draft picks, you know, down the road, whatever, but oftentimes it's a one to one player trade.
• 49:53
  So just recently, you know, a really tall guy, uh Christoph Sportsingus was traded for um.
• 50:00
  Who's he traded for?
• 50:02
  A short guy, you know, fast athletic guy, cominga.
• 50:05
  And so they traded.
• 50:06
  And both teams, I mean, well, as long as they're healthy, both teams got better with the with the new players because the the uh you know warriors didn't have a really tall guy, and they needed that.
• 50:16
  And the um whatever.
• 50:18
  And the other team, you know, wanted this athletic kind of mobile defense, whatever.
• 50:23
  They bought it.
• 50:23
  So each one found something that fit into their prospective program better.
• 50:27
  And and they had these parts to begin with, and they could have integrated their their networking to accommodate the players, but the easier thing was to trade the player and keep their network intact.
• 50:37
  And so both teams got better because they got a plug-in.
• 50:40
  You know, if you have you know five carburetors and I have you know 18 breaks, you know, we can make a trade, and both our cars can get better because I don't need all those extra breaks.
• 50:49
  You don't need all those extra carburetors.
• 50:51
  And so we can do better, and we wind up progressing.
• 50:54
  And obviously, you know, the economies have gotten better over time because we are able to proceed with those kind of trades, you know, verbal and intellectual, whatever, through you know, the means of communication that are, you know, so everything's gotten better and faster, but the basic aspect of rights has not.
• 51:09
  This is not like a Smithian economy.
• 51:11
  You know, you you transfer rights, you you know, create this trade, you know, as trade-off so that you do the trans get this.
• 51:19
  Well, you know, the girls don't get anything.
• 51:21
  You know, the girls who were, you know, there was a bill in you know, some state legislature here, um, US, where they wanted to condemn uh some kind of uh predatory pedophilia, whatever.
• 51:35
  And it couldn't pass because included within that was the essence that young girls couldn't be looked at.
• 51:40
  You know, you're looking at young girls, you know, child porn, whatever, but it but it would exclude the the the you know trans-identified men who are going into you know young girls' locker rooms.
• 51:50
  And you know, it's an oddity because you know, I when this started, I I was joking with my one of my relatives uh who's on the left, and I was saying, you know, I I think this stuff is awesome because I've always you know, I I want to go back to high school.
• 52:03
  I want to be a frankly, not just go back to high school, I want to be a young girl in high school.
• 52:09
  I think I could do really well in the wrestling team, even at this stage.
• 52:12
  I think I could do pretty pretty well, maybe not, you know, but I could at least try, and I'd be on the school, whatever, and I could be in the lock.
• 52:18
  And she's like, you can't change your age.
• 52:24
  Well, yeah, you should, yeah, but this idea of like, oh, I identify as a 20-year-old, right?
• 52:28
  I mean, well, if you can identify as different sex, but um yeah, but this is a good point, but about rights.
• 52:36
  But I think some of them are more uh certain rights are more intrusive, obtrusive than others, right?
• 52:43
  So I think you know, women's rights, black rights, gay rights, you know, are less obtrusive than something like trans rights, where you're you are you're literally now entering into a woman's space and clashing directly with their free association rights um and and identity and and and and of course it has other safety implications.
• 53:08
  But but the other thing, yeah, I think there are corresponding responsibilities.
• 53:13
  So, for example, the response to have free speech, you need people to have uh thick enough skin that they're not gonna run to the authorities and try and get you canceled.
• 53:23
  Uh so that suggests a certain resilience uh level that that that's the responsibility, and and that's being eroded.
• 53:30
  So that in fact that's therefore making it impossible to have free speech rights when it comes to certain groups.
• 53:36
  Um yeah, I mean, it's uh the whole thing is a is a bit of a mess because it's all driven by this emotional majority's bad, minorities good, and then you have certain points depending on which group you're in.
• 53:52
  Um so you can't actually operate on the basis of procedural liberalism or any kind of universal principle uh when you've got special rights depending on your identity characteristics.
• 54:05
  So I'm gonna we're rounding out our hour, and I want to talk about colleges and campuses and your forays and so forth.
• 54:11
  Um, I have a friend, uh John Tamney, who's uh the editor of real clear markets, and uh he has he's a contrarian at almost everything and they're a brilliant guy, and and I enjoy talking with them, and we often agree, but uh he he's basically well, campuses are leftist, and that's what it is.
• 54:30
  Um get on with your life, you know, deal with it.
• 54:33
  You shouldn't want to change because that's what they are.
• 54:36
  And you know, you can go, no one's stopping you from becoming I don't know a business owner or whatever, you know, leave the campuses to, you know, these are people who want to hang around with other leftists and blah, blah, blah.
• 54:47
  And society has grown and flourished despite all this, and that's not anything new, et cetera.
• 54:52
  Um, on the other hand, you know, it's a state supported uh deal.
• 54:56
  And you know, just like you know, handout welfare, you can have welfare reform, you can have basically upward well for welfare reform and have some means testing according to whatever parameters you want.
• 55:06
  If you say, oh, in order to get this benefit, you have to you know prove you are you know, well, actually don't have a leg, whatever, in order to get, you know, so many of the colleges are basically apparati of the state.
• 55:18
  Um, is you know, there could be some means testing, and you could have an applique, you know, of of whatever the societal norm is based on, you know, what you call the democracy, I'll call it kind of constitutional republic, whatever whatever the parameters there are that that's what you want to present as a society.
• 55:32
  There's no reason you should have all your state universities and state colleges have having blather and you know, blithering on about you know, bloviating, I don't know, I can do another alliteration in there.
• 55:44
  Look and sound more like the public that's funding them.
• 55:49
  Thank you so much, Eric.
• 55:50
  Uh so how can people find you and uh where should they buy your book?
• 55:54
  Thanks, Randy.
• 55:55
  I mean, the easiest thing is to go to my uh you can go to my website, which is www.snapsn-eps.net.
• 56:02
  I'm also on X.
• 56:04
  Uh, it's at E P K A U F M.
• 56:07
  And the book is called The Third Awakening at all good bookstores uh and on Amazon.
• 56:13
  Um, so yeah, that's pretty much we have also got uh a center for heterodoc social science at the University of Buckingham.
• 56:19
  Uh so we've got a website, we do uh, you know, we have a YouTube channel and all that.
• 56:23
  So please do check us out.
• 56:26
  Thank you so much.
• 56:27
  Thanks, Randy.
• 56:28
  It's been a pleasure.
• 56:29
  That's all for today.
• 56:31
  Remember, every myth has a solution, and every truth has the power to transform your health.
• 56:34
  Find us on America Out Loud Pulse Radio every Friday at 5 p.m.
• 56:38
  Eastern or on demand, wherever you get your podcasts.
• 56:40
  Stay curious, stay informed, and we'll see you next week.
• 56:43
  America Outloud Pulse always beautiful.