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AIM High: Women in Leadership Roles · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of Aim High.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the host of these podcasts, which are specifically for marketers in the investment management industry.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry there's been a bit of a gap in the last month or so, but we've got some more podcasts coming your way, so watch the space.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are talking to a couple of women who have fantastic roles in the industry and have really inspired me and I really admire the way they go about their work and their responsibilities.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Karen Braid, who is the chair of two investment trust boards and director of other companies as well, creating a portfolio career, and Jane Fieldhouse, who is the head of marketing partner and has NED responsibilities at Blue Bay.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to hand over to them and have a conversation of leadership and reflections on careers.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Jane and Karen, for joining me today.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to just have us a meandering conversation around your roles and careers.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So perhaps best to start there to ask each of you to introduce yourselves, your role and responsibilities.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe Jane, I'll come to you first and then to you, Karen.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, thank you very much, Twink, for having us today.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really a pleasure to talk to you.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: My name's Jane Fieldhouse, and I am head up the communications and marketing function at Blue Bay Asset Management.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: And as part of my role, I'm also on Blue Bay's Management Committee.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: And our parent company is World Bank of Canada Global Asset Management.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on their leadership committee.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I also have a couple of non-executive director roles within the company.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I work two non-execut roles within the group.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, thank you.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds busy.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Karen.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, um, so I have a portfolio of non-executive directorships.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I chair two investment trusts.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: One is um Aberdeen Japan Investment Trust.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've been on that board now for seven years, and I took over as chair about three years ago.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm chair of Keystone Positive Change Investment Trust, which is a fund that recently moved from Invesco to Bailey Gifford.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm on the board of Augment FinTech as the chair of audit and HiQ PLC, is my latest one, which is a Swiss um speciality materials company.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I sort of I can and I sort of balance that with a few roles in the um non not-for-profit sector.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's yeah, great portfolio.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And like Jane, I don't have a full-time job.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting, you know, as you sort of talk about the expansive roles that you do have, you know, what are the things that really kind of motivate you and and sort of make you know you thrive within those sort of different roles and and uh responsibilities.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll stick with you, Karen, first and then and then flip the order.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what's what what's been really what I find so interesting is the variety.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I sort in building up this portfolio of roles in um geographic geographic variety, product variety, um, and of course, with each board you have a different manager, a different team of directors.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so it's a juggling act in many ways because you've got to you know you've got to remember, you know, which which company is doing what, but it's it's really fascinating, and and I really find that one is learning all the time.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you um to me that's really important um is to keep challenging myself to acquire new knowledge and ask new questions and just learn.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Jay.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was gonna um I think Karen's kind of covered it, just the variety and and and how interesting it is.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're probably very lucky that we enjoy our jobs in it, uh I'm sure.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think what you know, if you think about sort of you know what what gets you excited and what makes you thrive and what motivates you, um for me it's not about getting the big headline results.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoy the process and going through um the you know what leads to great results.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you have a great person, you have a great team and you build and nurture that, that always leads to good results and it always leads to better results as you sort of continuously do that.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um when I'm trying to think about what do I get excited about on a you know on a Monday morning when I get up, and and it's just the right, so what challenge are we gonna have this time?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: What can we do this time that's different?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: How can we get better?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how can we all do this together?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's very much about the journey, really, isn't it?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess the stakeholder management within all that, when you are you know working with lots of different people in different guises in different industries, to your point, the variety kind of throws up all of that dynamic as well.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I also think that what one has to uh, you know, and Alicia Bro, you're you're you're taking advantage of lots of great advisors, great staff, great, great team, as you, as you say.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and um you you have the opportunity to actually choose who they are and and identify them and work and and that's that's that's actually a lot of fun too.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because in the old days when you're junior, you have to deal with somebody else's choices.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree, and also that that opportunity to, you know, when you when you find that talent and and the opportunity to nurture talent and and empower them, it's a it's a really great feeling, you know, it kind of empowers you to empower them, um, and you definitely enjoy that part.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting the dual roles of exec and non-exec, isn't it?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And sort of so maybe um I promised I wouldn't go off on tangents like this, but just in terms of the the sort of differences there and and Karen, particularly sort of how how you kind of bring that rigor in as to sort of what how far you go in those non-exec roles.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, my first one was on a venture capital um front with Albion Capital, it's called Crown Place, and I had to, and they hired me because my background was in the private equity industry, and so I understood what the managers were actually doing, investing in these private companies.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really hard in those first few months not to sort of jump in and second guess what they were doing.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I was very aware of that, and and although although I I could bring that experience as a strength to the board, it was something I had to fight hard to resist, you know, you know, micromanaging or trying to micromanage.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Of course I couldn't because I wasn't as good as them, but um uh I I think in time you get better at it, but it's you really have to reset you have to fight it hard um all the time.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, when you're recruiting other directors on the board, it's it's a it's a it's one of the big challenges for a non-exec is to be able to step back and allow them to get on the job.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and I do I and I agree, I do find it quite interesting because when you're sitting in those non-exec meetings, it's kind of almost a right, shut up, put my non-exec hat on.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: What what what is my governance role here rather than a contribution to the debate or uh or joining the debate?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's a slightly different mindset, isn't it, that you constantly have to remind yourself of.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's trying to bring your or your colleagues' experience to ask the challenging questions and and encourage the exec to to you know to to really think through that their strategic demands and you know um and why they're doing what they're doing.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then once once you've signed off from that, you just have to back off and let them get on with it.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But do you think um I mean sort of feel like uh for our listeners, you know, in terms of the kind of the positions you've you've uh you've got now, you know, that they're potentially positions that people would love to aspire to and and look to do.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think back on your career and and all the career that you still have ahead of you, of course, you know, how do you do you think there's anything that's really helped accelerate your career or held you back in any way?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Jane, when you can you think about your role?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll tell you what has is quite interesting.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll deal with the what's held me back a bit first.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um I I think in my sort of mid-career, what held me back was me not speaking up about my ability.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that's very common at that sort of stage as well.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I missed out on opportunities because I didn't sell myself enough or I didn't push myself to sell myself enough.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I just assumed that you know, because I was working hard and getting good results, then you know that I'd get noticed.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: But in a busy, crowded market and environment, that that doesn't always happen.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but I think what's accelerated, and and and I would urge anybody who does want to move on is to find that great sponsor, to find somebody who really, really supports you and is is is there for you to help sponsor you.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not just talking about a mentor because you know it's a different relationship.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: A mentor is you know somebody to help and guide and help you think through your stuff, a sponsor is somebody who really backs you.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, and I think I've been very lucky that uh you know, particularly my current CEO has been a strong sponsor of mine.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I would agree.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think going back to the ear my earliest career from the very beginning, um, if I if I'm honest about it, there was a f individuals along the way who really supported me.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, I lacked self-confidence and and belief.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's kind of weird because I was openly a very confident person, but actually, in truth, I wasn't really.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and sometimes it's that senior, usually they're senior to you, and they they just they just sort of sit you down and say, look, you can do this.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I and that was that's been incredibly helpful.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very conscious of that now.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: If if somebody comes to me, I really try and help them because I know how much of a difference you can make.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny how consistent we were, because I noted down and just in my own mind, going thinking ahead for what our conversation was going to cover, that confidence was what held me back, and what it helped accelerate me was those who invited me to sort of show my talent, sort of gave me the opportunity and the room and the rope to go and um bring ideas, and it's it's incredibly consistent, isn't it, when we think of those three answers.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then when you're thinking about, you know, how'd how do I know I'm sure you'll probably come to this, but um, how do you how do I want to be, you know, as a as a leader in a leadership role?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be that person that helps others as well, because if I've been lucky enough to have that, then then I want to make sure that I'm giving back um and that we're helping support that talent coming through as well.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I completely agree.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so when you think of kind of cross, were there any crossroads when we're sort of reflecting kind of again on the sort of the journey of um realization of various things, um, but but were there crossroads that you can kind of identify now looking back in terms of your career choices um that might have taken you down a different path or um have caused you to reflect kind of more latterly?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Karen, I can see you nodding.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I I I embarked after university um with a with an objective to learn as much as possible.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: That was the advice my father gave me.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I took a job where I knew I get great training, fantastic exposure to opportunities and new skills.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and after about four years in the organization, I I realized that it just didn't match my moral compass, if that makes sense.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I it took me a long time to figure it out.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I made a decision to leave.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and at the time I was working in the American Bank in London, and I decided I wanted to work in one of the development institutions.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I resigned and said I was going off to Madrid to learn Spanish and I was off to Latin America and, you know, going to change my life completely.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember HR was so shocked, and they they they looked at my file and they realized I hadn't taken the mortgage, I hadn't got the car, I hadn't, and and and I actually hadn't understood myself that I always wanted and have no shackles, that I would have the freedom to make that change.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, you it's it was so sort of subtle, but when I made the decision, it was such a relief.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, so I knew I could stay on this track and have this probably very interesting career in this wonderful American institution.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: But um yeah, I made this decision to change it because I wasn't comfortable with what some of the decisions they were making, and off I went, and you know, no regrets whatsoever.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: But and then many years later, I you know, I had 10, 12 years having a really interesting time working mainly for CDC, which is a Commonwealth Development Corporation that was.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and um then I I found it with my job and and being a mum, because I had young children at the time, was just it was too difficult.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was travelling too much, I was away too much.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I made a decision around family, which um I have no regrets again, but it you know, it it it was I stood back, I stepped back and I sort of took some time out.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's it's it's important it's important you you you do close doors, but then others will open up.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you know, that's what's so that's what's so interesting, but you have to be brave.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, fascinating.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Same for you, Jane, to some degree.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or gosh, I don't think I've had such dramatic or exciting crossroads.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I've been quite boring.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um well I don't I don't know how to follow that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I would say that you know it's been I I've I've um reflecting on some of the uh some of the the sort of the the career choices that I made, you know.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I remember, and I'm not gonna name company names, but I remember turning down a very very large asset manager role so that I could go to a boutique.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and and a lot of people at the time were like, why on earth did you do that?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a question myself, but I think there was a subconscious sort of cultural thing there, and also a you know, a hunger to to be more hands-on and do more, and you know, it sometimes you can get lost in the big organizations, and sometimes you sometimes they work for people, sometimes they don't, and clearly for me at that point it didn't.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And actually reflecting on it, that was a great move for me personally, um, and I think it's helped me along my path that I've ended up on now.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I wouldn't say that I've had a a a steady or a structured plan.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's uh it's all about taking the opportunities as they arrive.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think you have to have the courage of your convictions.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a great that's one of my favourite terms because I think it's so important to really be true to yourself.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um because you can be it's quite a lonely thing to do sometimes to make those decisions when everybody's looking to you thinking you're a bonkers, but um you've got to be careful to yourself.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, sort of trusting in your instinct and and and and I guess also feeling like you can continue to make those career choices.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are many, um, but it's not just the um the privy of your those early years in your career, you can continue to make bold and brave moves throughout, can't you?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and some of that can also just be staying put, could be just as brave as what the kind of the opportunity might seemingly be on the other side.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was I was asked recently about about you know what what what what decisions you make around sort of changing jobs.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And my my initial reaction was don't make don't change jobs for reason, don't change jobs for out of frustration or you know, leave a company because you're frustrated with it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to always try and make sure that you're doing things for a positive reason or you're doing it because you know it will advance you rather than doing it from a negative place.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I always try and do that, you know, and it's it's not it's not easy to do, especially when you're frustrated where you are.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it is important to always have that in your mind.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I guess maybe sort of a continuing on the same theme, are there any things that you you know wish you'd kind of realised sooner in terms of unlocking your potential?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and maybe that goes back to wishing you'd recognized kind of the power of your instincts and um uh kind of being able to sort of back yourself um a bit easier.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of um hand over to you, but I something that I wish I'd realised sooner was that uh the question that I'm thinking of but not saying is probably the same question everybody else around the table is thinking of and not saying.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So just be brave, ask the question, be curious, because it's your own, it's own, it's always your own knowledge that you're sort of preventing from growing, you're sort of you know stopping yourself from growing if you're not asking those questions.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I I wish that I had realized that sooner, for instance.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I and I was I think also just to ask for something.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes women may be particularly a little bit more reticent just to go, I want a pay rise, I want to, I wanna, or I want a promotion.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and so long as it's merited and you've done the work and you've proven yourself to be capable of the next step.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why the hell not?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think often, certainly I think in my own career, I kind of waited to be invited, perhaps too much.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this is maybe to some of the things you're saying right at the top, Jane, as well.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree, and I think it's also related to what Karen was saying around confidence, um, and um and having that confidence to say that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I I think I would 100% agree with you.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: What what what what didn't I do or what should I have done sooner?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was speaking up for yourself and promoting yourself.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and as as you said, ask just saying what you think and being really honest.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think I think there's something to be said to be being consistent and being honest about who you are and what you want, um, and not to be embarrassed about that, and not to um and I and I think I think the confidence thing is I see it all the time, particularly in women.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is a female, it's kind of a guy.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: I see, yeah, it's very it is very interesting.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um Although um although you say that, but I was um I've had a few interesting conversations about imposter syndrome recently, and um I have the same conversations with men and women, um, and and I I think women struggle with confidence more, I do agree with you, particularly in our male-dominated environments that we're in.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, yeah, but it sounds like men just have imposter syndrome just as much, but maybe they hide it better.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: It is increasingly in our conversations though, isn't it?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I find it fascinating because even the most confident people um and inspiring people talk to having imposter syndrome, and I and I you kind of feel like it's a very personal thing that it kind of that that that you're struggling with.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: When you asked me to do this, I thought I thought, why me?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what it's it's it is really interesting, really.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: When you when we bring this back, can you just listen to the first minute of you listing half all of your portfolio?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that might answer the question.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so when Karen was doing that, I had imposter syndrome.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: There we go, is it ridiculous?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I'll tell you, my favourite one is uh um when I first started working as a you know newly graduate graduates within a year they they used us to grow to recruit.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I was you know meeting young you know graduates who are only a year or two younger than me.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And without exception, like I kept thinking, God, thank god I joined when I did it because I'd never get in now.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, all these people are so brilliant and so amazing.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I just um you know, that kind of hasn't changed.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's odd, isn't it?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Very I don't know how to unpick that, and and maybe it's just part of us sharing it as a is a start of it, you know.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I was but but on the flip side of that, I think is that there's a healthy level of sort of um confidence or or imposter syndrome that you can have because I think if you if you don't have that, then surely you become complacent and arrogant.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and and that's not a good place to be.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Very good point, yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: So let's move on to your point, Jane, around you know, being a leader kind of within your team and company, you know, the kind of environment and example you're trying to set, you know, when you sort of take a lot of the learnings from our careers that we've sort of covered the last 20 minutes or so, um, you know, how does that inform how you lead and encourage and the type of environment you're creating?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it's a really good question.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I hope my team aren't listening.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um so one of the things that I um I I think it's just you when you understand yourself more, you kind of work out where your strengths and weaknesses are, don't you?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I love getting people together and and and building a common goal.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um when I'm trying to look at sort of what kind of personal, how do I want to lead the team, um I look at sort of how do we create a shared vision, you know, how do we get everybody on the boat and everybody on the journey together, and that doesn't I want everybody to have their specialisms and be empowered in their specialisms, but I want them to be the sum of their parts um rather than you know just just outliers of excellence, um, because that's how you build a really strong results.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and that that sort of collaborative feeling and that openness as well as a team, um, and and also that feeling of I I don't have to be in the room, you know, I want them to go and be be the best they can be without me necessarily being there, you know, it's about it's about it's about again about joining the forces together.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that's kind of my ideal.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um and then how you create that is um is around bringing people with different skill sets but also diversity, and that's not necessarily just gender or ethnicity diversity, but it's cognitive diversity.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you only get a shared vision, you only get great sort of a shared vision if you do have that kind of diversity going on in your team where you help it's healthy challenge and and the questioning is is honest and open questioning rather than sort of you know that that sort of undercurrent questioning.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that that's the ideal, really, or that's what I would like to strive for.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And Karen, I guess it's slightly different around the sort of table of kind of non-execs, but but there are no doubt, you know, the same sort of diversity of thought and and but also kind of bring people's best out.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's and actually it's you know, I I try and I I've been sort of reading about this, you know, of late and how easy it is to lose people's diverse thinking around a boardroom table because you go around the table and to get everyone's input, and by you know, the second or third person spoken, then after that, nobody bothers to contribute because I think it's already been said or it's already been done.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a it is a it is a challenge, I think, to um to make sure that you do and enable people to really contribute.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I do it by saying, you know, will you send me your thoughts beforehand, just so I've got a chance to consider what everyone's thinking and you know to make the conversation richer.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that is very helpful.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I and and some people, you know, it's also trying to understand how you can get the best out of people.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's you know, in an open form.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is not the best for A, and whereas B is better on paper and C, you know, it's a I find that really interesting trying to because that takes time.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can't read people.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can't anyway.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: It takes me time to figure out how to do it best, so and how to get the best out of my colleagues.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was um hearing the other day that uh if you had a sort of room full of 14 people, say, and you put up a sort of one page uh kind of on the screen that had seven blobs on it, and you went round the room saying how many blobs are on this sort of screen, and you start all the way around, and everybody said eight, that by the time that it came to the last person, they're sitting there looking at seven blobs, but they're hearing eight from everybody else.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the tendency and the probability is that they will then say eight, even though they can see see it's different because they're so swayed by the kind of the broader, broader groom.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, fascinating.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is fascinating.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't have any any formal training in this stuff, so I am trying to learn a load.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Read by the I think we all are a bit.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that's okay.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is all back to the cure curiosity and the learning, isn't it?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think is such a strong theme.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as soon as people stop having that, then I I think that's that's the most dangerous point in there in a career, is if you sort of lose that energy and natural sort of desire to understand and ask questions.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of the other advantages I have in in that sort of non-exec role is that a lot of my colleagues have other jobs elsewhere, you know, non-exec roles or even exec roles.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a real wealth of experience, um, diverse experience around the table.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so yeah, that that makes it actually very both interesting but also quite an easy job sometimes just to get things done.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I think more recently around you know, styles and and sort of how we approach things, obviously we've all uh transitioned to working from home and everything sort of remotely um planned, organized, delivered.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: How has do you think over the past year kind of the way that you work and your approach, your strengths um and priorities have changed some somehow or come out differently?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is there, you know, when you think of kind of working through this pandemic, have you reflected at all, I guess, in terms of how that's informed your behaviours or or or leadership style?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: It has well once once you come up the air and you work out what's going on.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I think I'll tell you what, I've I feel like I've become a little bit more structured in, you know, when we're on these constant video calls, there does need to be some sort of agenda, there does need to be some sort of you know, follow-up after us.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you know, there's a subtlety there that I think I've improved on.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um of the takeaways that I uh had recently um that I so I I I I am clearly a personal relationship builder, um, and um in so I like to interact with people, and so I've noticed that my sort of personal interactions have have have been impacted as a result of the pandemic.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I just assume that a lot of other people felt like this.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I got some feedback um very, very recently around the fact that some people um are actually feeling empowered in this environment because what it's done is it's broken dark down hierarchies, and there's much more of a one-on-one dialogue, you know, speaking to somebody in their sitting room one-on-one is a very different dynamic from going up to their desk and having a conversation, you know, next to lots of other people.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I was a bit kind of like, wow, that that's a completely different perspective that I hadn't considered.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's some been some benefits of the pandemic.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, how do we make that, how do we keep that alive afterwards?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it has been a real and the other thing that's been a real eye opener has been the intensity.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the productivity and the intensity has been fierce and amazing, and that's blown me away.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: My worry is now um is something that I didn't I wasn't conscious of a year ago, and it's the well-being of the team and those around me.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just my immediate team, it's just everybody around me.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's stretch, everybody's at breaking point now, everybody's at capacity.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And how how how can we make that better?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one of the things that I I'm really keen on at the moment is what what is it I can do to deprioritize or re-prioritize so that you know there is a bit of breathing space now.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely find the breadth of the conversations I'm now having with clients and colleagues is just um hugely different, really, you know, that kind of rather than the very one-dimensional conversation, very work-related, with some personal interest, of course, but but now it the kind of the real richness and depth of conversation that I have.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a leader, kind of feeling really comfortable across that spectrum, being able to be kind of recognize that this doesn't have to be perfect, it can be a bit messy, and I can be vulnerable here.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's I think hopefully that's going to be a healthier thing to take into the next phase of work, really, when we get back into the office a bit more.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that it's that it's a much more rounded relationship.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I really try to, I mean, I I don't do I don't manage it every time, but I really try to, no matter who I'm talking to, no matter what level they are, I I will ask them how they are, either at the beginning or the end of the conversation, so that you can have and and you wouldn't do that in a face-to-face office environment necessarily.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: You'd probably have a bit of a chat at the beginning, but you wouldn't not to the same extent we do now.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that's a good thing because I think it provides the opportunity for these people to be honest as well.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think this pandemic has allowed people to be much more open about their work-life balance and what's going on in their personal lives, and um, I think that's really healthy actually in many ways.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um in in in my case, I I've actually found I've had to be more organised.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um conducting chairing a um a board meeting on Zoom is really, I mean, it's just ridiculous if you're going on for three, four hours because you've got so much material to get through and so many different people participating, you know.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's I I just think it's a lot more difficult.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's more difficult to um read people, it's more difficult to um pick up the nuances of what's going on, you know, in if there's a group of you trying to make a decision.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: So so it is different, it's definitely different.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um I just I just I just you know it's like the thing about asking people to submit their thoughts beforehand.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: You I think you have to do that even more when you're doing everything on Zoom.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: I guess looking further ahead and sort of taking some of our own medicine around curiosity and asking for things, you know, how are you thinking about kind of your next steps and what are things you still got in mind to sort of achieve and accomplish?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: The one thing which I've um you know I'm very passionate about is the in the investment industry is the whole area of impact and sustainable investment.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's a particular hobby horse of mine.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, when I first went into the asset management um industry probably about 10 years ago, I was amazed how far behind they were on the whole ESG story compared to um you know where I'd come from.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so yeah, I and and as we were talking about earlier, you know, I'm involved in an investment trust that just moved over to a positive change mandate.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I with Bailey Gifford, and I just think it's it's I I I'm passionate about growing that area of the investment industry.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love to be part of that journey and share all of them.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, brilliant, Jane.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how do you follow that?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I want to be like Karen, Hazar.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh yeah, it's um it's a challenging one, isn't it?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Look, we're like we talked about at the beginning, we're always there's all there's always room for improvement.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um you know, it's so what the way I'm looking at what I'm doing now and and where I want to go is is is to how how can I be better at what I'm doing?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And also what opportunities can I have to to grow more in terms of my knowledge, my understanding, who I am, my role, etc.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and that comes in a variety of different formats.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the other areas which is it's it's it's very much linked to what Karen was saying is there is a huge um that there's a huge push around multiple values, whether it's ESG, whether it's diversity, um, in the industry, um, which which is only a good thing.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and what I want to try and do is is grow in that area from the point of view that I want to make sure that you know we're nurturing talent up through into the industry and and can I get more involved in that and and what does that talent look like and how diverse can that talent be?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Similarly, how do we build a sustainable, um, sustainable environment?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're we're talking the talk from an ESG point of view, but are our companies, are our is really walking the walk at the moment.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think there's an awful lot more to do there, and I'd I would like to make sure I contribute towards that.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic, brilliant, very inspiring.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think also some great kind of thoughts more generally for listeners around sort of maintaining that sort of passion for improvement and learning as we talk to.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just as we wrap up, um, are there any other thoughts that or pieces of advice that you might have for those in their career at any stage, frankly, it could be setting out.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm conscious that our listeners are of different disciplines and different regions of the world and different seniority.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think anything that comes to mind around how you'd inspire to your point, Jane, around the next generation and and developing that talent.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um it sounds flippant, but say yes to opportunities.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, and even if something feels like hard work and you're like, oh my god, am I grinding through this again?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, look at it as, well, what what is this an opportunity to improve my CV?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think if you look at it from a, well, you know, it it will this good will this look good in a different environment?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Will this you know, will this help me get my next role?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Then I think that's the uh that's definitely the lens to look through.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um I think the industry is changing, the industry is changing quite dramatically.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there isn't there isn't a solid path um with within which to go.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think it really is about grasping opportunities and and I think I I kind of wish I'd done that sooner is um, you know, not not sit there and work hard and go, surely my work, my hard work's going to be noticed, um, is about taking the initiative and trying and trying to build on that initiative in a positive way.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Karen, your turn to follow some great advice.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I think um I think it's really important to always try and hire people who are much better than you are.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and don't be scared of of um of hiring people who make you uncomfortable or who you think you're you're never gonna, you know.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: I just that's that's really important, and I've seen people fail to do that over and over, and it's such a mistake.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think it's really important to to to really try and figure out what you believe in and and then follow, have the courage to follow that and stick with it.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, be brave.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is the perfect point to which to for me to stop talking, but just to thank you both so very much for really being open and candid in in your responses and conversation today.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've really, really enjoyed talking to you both.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks very much.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.