Latest / Brandon Fogal Evolution / #124 - Why Alex O’Connor Still Doesn’t Get Christianity

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#124 - Why Alex O’Connor Still Doesn’t Get Christianity · Brandon Fogal Evolution

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Today, we're going to take a look at a video that Alex O'Connor made called,
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Have I Ever Considered Reverting to Christianity?
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My name is Brandon Fogel. This is Evolution. I want to dive into this.
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I want to first start it off with in my response to his video.
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This was made about two years ago, so it's not old. And I mean, it is old. It is old.
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So I'm sure his, Alex's views have changed in a lot of respects,
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but I'm going to be responding to what he says in this video and my viewpoint about it.
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And I want to start it off with in giving, why set this as the frame to think
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about this in when I'm talking about this and I'm answering what Alex says in this video.
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This is from 1 Corinthians 2, verse 14.
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The natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God,
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for they are folly to him.
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And he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
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You might think that starting with a shaky foundation, but there's a reason
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that I wanted to start with that.
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All right, let's just dive into it because there's a lot to this.
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Alex is gonna be answering a question at the beginning of it of someone asking
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him, have you ever considered this?
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Did you at any point of your atheism consider genuinely reverting back to Christianity?
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If so, can you tell us about that? Well, I do like to think that every single
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time I make a video, every single time I interact
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with a Christian or if I'm doing a debate like the debates that I've got coming
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up in the United States, that I'm going in with the idea that at least potentially
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this could lead to a conversion to Christianity.
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If you go into a discussion or a conversation, even on an online platform like
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YouTube, without even the possibility that you might become convinced by what
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somebody says in response, then I think you're essentially wasting your time.
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Why are you bothering to engage in this dialogue in the first place if you're
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not seriously considering adopting your opponent's stance?
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So I think this is a very respectful position that Alex takes in any conversation
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that he has, that I'm going to be willing,
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I would be willing to be converted to that position if it holds weight and if
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it stands up to test, if it stands up to reason and logic, I'm willing to.
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This is something I, it might, you might throw me completely out and you might
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disregard me completely since I have become a Christian, since I have become
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a Christian, because I did not become a Christian until I was 20 years old.
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And I struggled through a lot of things to make that leap.
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And surrender. But since I've become a Christian, I have had to.
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There is no other option but Jesus.
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So I am constantly trying to reframe my mind and bolster the viewpoint of Christ.
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But I'm still, as much as possible, open to everything. I can still think about
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what it would be like to be open.
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But I wanted to start off with this because when I first became a Christian,
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immediately things caused me to doubt in so many ways.
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I struggled with doubt extremely because something would just come in the back
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of my mind and start just shaking my faith and make me feel miserable.
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And I had to make the settled position.
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This is true. I've solely, I've bought in, I am completely in.
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So I, I don't know if I honestly come to the position, like if I was talking
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to somebody about Islam or Mormonism.
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I mean, then I would be, because I've read the Quran, I've read the Book of
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Mormon, it would be tough for me to say I am fully open to that being correct
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because it heavily denies what the Bible says about Jesus. But let's just continue.
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Of course, there are two ways to interpret this question. If you're asking if
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I've ever considered converting to Christianity, I do that on a practically
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daily basis when I'm engaging with this material.
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The idea is to think, hey, let's see if this convinces me.
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And if I've shut off this idea that I'll ever be able to revert back to Christianity,
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then as I say, I'd be wasting my time.
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But if you mean to say, has there been any point at which I've thought to myself,
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you know what, this is beginning to convince me.
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I'm actually beginning to feel myself being pulled towards Christianity.
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I can't say I've experienced anything quite like that. Nothing.
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Nothing, not once, not nearly, not ever, not even briefly have I experienced
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anything that speaks to the existence of a God in the universe.
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Of course, my views have changed on particular arguments.
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So right there, you can see he's showing like an earlier clip of himself.
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And I get that our views evolve.
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The apostle Paul, you could say for the reading him in Galatians,
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as opposed to reading him in Colossians or Ephesians or first, second book of Timothy.
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Those are, you can definitely see his, he's not the same guy and it is the same guy.
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I would heavily argue it is Paul writing all of those or having someone write
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it through him speaking, but he was very combative in the book of Galatians
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compared to in Colossians.
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He's like a little bit more laid back. You can see that he's a little more mature, grown up in Christ.
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The Jerusalem council hasn't convened and made decisions been made.
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And so he's able to fall back on that. But you just get a little bit older and
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wiser in your viewpoint.
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You might not be as fiery as you are. I mean, because I turned so many people
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off when I first became a Christian.
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So many people. Because I was so, not like I was breathing fire and brimstone,
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but I was deeply, like Like Christ had so changed my life and I knew it was the truth.
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And I was like, hell really scared me. And it didn't scare me as in my,
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and for me, but I really didn't want people to go there.
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And I was like, oh, and I turned even like my best friends away because I was
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like, have you, are you not even concerned about that?
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And like, I went about it like terribly, but I think there's the element of
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where we mature and we, maybe that's not the best way to go about it.
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And I think maybe he's not exactly the way he was in this is two years ago.
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So he's not exactly the way he is now, but you're still, you,
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I think you would just get more refined in life.
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But let's continue. For instance, you can see a video that I made debunking
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myself on the Kalam cosmological argument, because I think that my old criticisms
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simply weren't very good.
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That's not to say that I'm convinced of the argument now, but at the very least,
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I would say that it's more plausible than I gave it credit for originally.
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So there is shifting of that kind going on in my mind. One thing I will say,
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though, is that I've been doing this for more than half a decade now.
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It's a lot of time to be engaging with a worldview that you don't actually believe
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in. And it seems a little bit strange from an outside perspective.
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Why would an atheist spend so long trying, essentially, to convert to Christianity
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through the arguments of other people and by engaging with them?
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Well, one answer is that I like to prove that I am actually doing what's being asked of me.
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For so many atheists, the message is given to them that if you're not feeling
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God's presence in your life, if you're not convinced of his existence,
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then it's probably got something to do with you.
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A lot of Christians will be committed to this. He's going to talk about this
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a lot, about the issue is with us and that he feels like the Christians make
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it seem like, you know, you, I think you're not, I think God's not the problem.
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I think you're the problem, you know, and it seems like everybody he's talking
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to is telling him that, that the reason that you don't believe there's something wrong with you.
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I would say yes and no, there's something wrong with everybody.
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We are all on this playing field where we don't, it is not possible.
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It is impossible for us to come to God and accept him.
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It is impossible for us to come to Jesus and accept him and love Christ.
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The Bible makes that clear that we are dead in transgressions and sins.
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It is a different wavelength that we have to somehow be awakened to,
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to be able to even see the truth of Christianity.
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And I don't want to come, I don't want to be like I am preaching anything at
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all, because especially with Alex O'Connor, he is very somber and very thoughtful.
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And he is, it doesn't seem like he gets passionate about much.
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And maybe that's his, the way
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he's kind of transitioned through his career in talking about all this.
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And it is a smart way to go about it because once you start getting passion,
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you try to, you kind of lose people. And I get that.
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And I don't want to be like that. It is tough for me. I have not matured to that extent yet.
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Maybe I will eventually. But when he talks about...
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Winning somebody over the argument and not being the same person, my views have changed.
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I completely get on board with it. I get it. Let's continue.
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This idea that if you don't feel God's presence in your life,
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if the arguments aren't working, if you're not feeling yourself pulled to Christianity,
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then it's something to do with you because it can't be something to do with
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God because God is a perfect being and a loving being.
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This is intimately linked to something known as the problem of divine hiddenness.
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Divine hiddenness is the problem of God's apparent hiddenness in the universe.
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If God exists and is omnipresent and wants to enter into a relationship with
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every human being, then why isn't his existence immediately apparent to everybody?
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Why is it that I have to go looking for him and oftentimes don't find him?
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Why does he appear, in other words, to be hidden from us? Now this argument,
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he's going to talk about this a lot as well.
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And this is, I absolutely love this. I got to put out this up front.
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I am by nature a person that flatters and I gotta kill myself on that because
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I always want people to like me.
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I always want people, I wanna say the right thing to make people feel good.
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But this is something that, so I'm saying that because I immediately go to that.
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So if you see me going to that, I mean, just slap me.
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But with regarding divine hiddenness, this is the crux of the matter,
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at least in my life, even as a Christian.
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And he's gonna talk about this a lot in divine hiddenness because so many times,
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even after you become a Christian, he's talking about even before as a Christian,
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before a Christian, I can put myself in the perspective of what I was like when
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I wasn't a Christian, when I was kind of quote unquote seeking,
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I didn't think of God as real at all.
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He wasn't even really there. I could talk maybe about him, but I genuinely didn't
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actually ever really believe he's there.
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That's why any prayer I would say would be a parrot saying, just saying words,
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but you actually don't believe he's there.
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So it comes down to faith. Faith is the gift of,
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Faith is a gift, and if it's a gift, it's a gift. But when he's talking about divine hiddenness,
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even after I have become a Christian, because I'm talking about it from a different
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perspective than him, I totally get that, and that's one of the biggest struggles
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I have ever had in Christianity.
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The second would probably be prayer. I struggle with prayer.
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But divine hiddenness, yeah, God has made it so perfect that it seems like he is not there.
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And you can cry out days and days and be going through the worst imaginable
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things and you don't get an answer.
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You don't get a response. You don't get a heavenly voice or anything.
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You might not even get a feeling inside of you.
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And I'm gonna talk about this more as he dives into it, but it comes down to
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faith. It's all about faith.
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If we did get that, where we got something, that would almost weaken our faith.
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The faith is not needing that.
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And maybe God gives you bits and pieces to where you're at, to where you're at.
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But he wants to strengthen your faith.
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Him completely. That's why Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I think those are
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the guys, and Daniel, they go thrown into the fiery furnace and they say,
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we're not going to bow down to you, O king.
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Even if God doesn't save us, we're still not going to submit.
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We're still not going to bow down to you.
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And like, that's faith. And that is a bigger faith than someone that's just,
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I'm on my couch and I just, I'm scared about what tomorrow is going to bring.
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You know, I guess everybody's in a different spot, you know,
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but God being able to withhold and not give you that answer almost might be
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testing you and giving you the ability to have a stronger faith.
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But let's continue with what he says.
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It was famously formalized by J.L.
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Schellenberg into premises that go like this. Premise one, if there is a God, he is perfectly loving.
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Premise two, if a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable non-belief does not occur.
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Premise three, reasonable non-belief does occur. And so the conclusion would
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follow that God does not exist.
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Now, what is this reasonable non-belief?
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Well, this is supposed to be distinguished from what Schellenberg might call
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unreasonable non-belief or something like this.
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It does seem clear that sometimes people can hold to positions unreasonably, to put it mildly.
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That is to say, maybe if God does exist and does make his existence apparent
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to everybody, there are some people who simply won't accept it,
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even if it's obvious to them.
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Now, this would be an example of unreasonable disbelief in God,
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because you're given enough reason to believe in God, but you still reject him anyway.
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This, I think everybody would agree, is unreasonable.
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He's given that argument. He's kind of like analyzing it. If there's a perfect
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loving God, you know, he's perfect, you know, so if it's reasonable to believe in him,
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we would believe in him, you know, and not everybody believes in him.
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So maybe it's, he's not perfect.
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I might've butchered that argument that was right there, but either way,
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unreasonable faith and reasonable faith.
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Yeah. There's a lot to that. You know, if you, if you come to it and you're
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just unwilling to, no matter how much is in front of you.
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And I think, and I've seen Alex talk about this in other videos,
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the unpardonable sin and what is, Alex doesn't believe in Christ.
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He doesn't believe in Christianity, but sometimes he talks about how like the
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fears of like what Jesus says there kind of can kind of scare him a little bit.
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And I don't, he might not have said that exact word, but it seemed like he thought
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that that was extremely harsh, that there is a sin that people can commit and not be forgiven of.
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And because there is in the Bible, it talks about the blasphemy of the Holy
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spirit. I'm not going to get into that.
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But I would shortly say that what was happening in that specific context is
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these were religious leaders that were seeing miracles,
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bona fide miracles of the Holy Spirit, and they were blaspheming it.
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They were denying it. They weren't just denying Jesus that there's a reasonable
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explanation why he might not be the Messiah.
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He might not be the son of God. You know, you got seeing God's testimony right before your eyes.
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And they weren't even saying, oh, it's not God.
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They were saying it's Satan and it's the works of Satan.
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And Jesus throws that in there. There is a sin that people will not be forgiven
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of in this age or in the one to come.
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And that is when you blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Let's continue.
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It wouldn't be a problem for Christianity. If it were the case that God really
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did give us enough evidence of his existence and people rejected that evidence
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in an unreasonable fashion, then that's not God's fault.
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That would be our fault. However, there does seem to be this other category
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of disbelief called reasonable disbelief.
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It's sometimes also called non-resistant non-belief. That is.
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Somebody isn't convinced by evidence, doesn't believe in God's existence,
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not because they're being unreasonable or rejecting what should be sufficient
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evidence, but genuinely, honestly, they're just not convinced.
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Maybe this is the kind of person who actually wants to believe in God. I would.
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Okay, so right there, this is very valuable for anyone that is out there because
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so many people that I have conversations with and even through the internet that message me,
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you can tell people just by even the words that they are writing or typing out
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or saying out where they are truthfully.
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If they are really willing to believe if the evidence was there,
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I would say there is enough evidence, but it still takes faith.
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We could have a Bible before us. We could read it all day long,
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but there has to be that element of faith, you know, and somebody that can believe
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without even, without the most evidence.
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That's the whole thing with doubting Thomas.
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He said, I have to see, I'm not going to believe unless I touch Jesus's side.
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I put my hands, I touch the wounds in his hands.
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He needed that, but everybody is different.
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And some people, God knows the amount of faith he needs to give us.
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And really, it comes down to that we only need the smallest amount of faith.
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The smallest amount of faith puts us in a right standing with God.
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And I can't skate past this, that when you are a Christian, there is the guarantee,
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the eternal security that you have because you didn't just create the faith
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in your mind or in your heart, in your actions. You didn't just create it. You didn't.
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And don't try to even say you did. It's a gift. And if it's a gift, it's a gift.
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So that gift that was given to you is not going to be taken away.
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So you can have confidence. You can have hope.
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You cannot worry about ever losing your salvation.
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That is how God is protecting Christians in this world.
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John the Apostle says that what has overcome the world is our faith.
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Our faith is what basically takes us, carries us into the next age.
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It is a very special thing.
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It's not something that Christians are just so awesome. They're just so smart
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and they're so righteous that they chose the right thing.
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They created the ability to have faith, which is the most righteous act.
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It's the most righteous act, but it didn't come from within Christians. It comes from without.
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And then you can say, well, why does some people have faith and some people
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don't? We're not going to go down that in this video, but let's continue.
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I would count myself among that category. I think it would be fantastic if Christianity
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were true, if there were a God who really loved us and really did die for our
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sins. I think that would be wonderful for me.
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But I just don't believe that it's the case. Now, I'm presented with evidence
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and I don't find it convincing.
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I don't. Okay, so right where he said, I would love to believe this,
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that if there is a God that he came and he died for our sins, I would love it.
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I don't know Alex's heart, but we can only take what people say and what they do.
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We don't ever know. We barely know our own hearts, what's going on inside of
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us. How could we know somebody else?
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But he's saying he would love to believe that. And if he's in that position
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and genuinely in that position, I think there's no way that he will not become
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a Christian eventually.
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There's no way. It's not even possible if he is really there and he wants truth.
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Because Jesus says, knock and will be given, seek and you will find.
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If you are genuinely doing that, genuinely, you can go to a church all day long.
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You can go, you can try to pray all day long. You can try to read your Bible
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and none of those things make you a Christian.
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If you're in a garage, you're not a car. Just because you're in a garage does not make you a car.
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It's a nature thing. It's who you are inside, at the root.
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But he says, I would love to believe that. And that is where I was at.
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I mean, honestly, I mean, before I became a Christian, I could say I did want it to be true.
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I wanted it to be true. And that's why I was kind of seeking it.
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But really, I was just truthfully indifferent.
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I, I, you got so many things going on in this life that really the last thing
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you need to be thinking about is God and afterlife and all this other stuff. We got the here and now.
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So really that's why the Bible also says no one seeks after God.
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So we can say this whole seeking thing that, Oh, they're really,
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they're, they're reaching out to God because it does say that in the Bible,
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people reach out to God, but even that it's all, God is the initiator.
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God is the one who is starting it up. He starts up the engine and he's the one who gets it rolling.
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After we have that faith, then we start maybe cooperating with the Holy Spirit
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and start yielding to the Spirit and trying to turn away from sin.
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But this whole, I don't know, Alex, I don't know your heart, man.
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I don't know if you really want it, if it was true, you would really want it.
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But if you really do want it, I think Jesus will present himself more and more to you.
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I don't want to be dogmatic and all that because that's obnoxious.
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But I'm saying that, I'm going to say the most dogmatic thing else.
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I'm after this right now. Jesus is the truth.
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Christianity is real. That is the reality that we are in.
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That is it. No matter how much Satan wants to deceive us, that is the reality
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of this world and where we are at.
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And that's what's going to come, what's going to be true in the end.
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And I know you could say every religion is saying the same thing.
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Every religion is saying something.
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But not every religion has their...
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Champion, dying and rising again and coming out of the grave.
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Not every, not every religion has that.
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And it's not just a resuscitation as many people have been raised from the dead.
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You know, Jesus raised people from the dead.
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He was changed by nature. His nature was changed.
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He was the first fruit of the world to come of what our bodies will be like in the world to come.
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And that's, I know a lot of dogmatic stuff, but I have to throw that out there
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because sometimes you got to, you got to jolt people.
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And I don't know if it was, I would have liked and appreciated somebody would
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have jolted me before I became a Christian because so much of my life was not making a decision.
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So much of my life was just, you know, I wasn't told to choose.
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And there's, we have, we have to give people the offer.
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We have to tell people about what it is they have, they have to make a decision.
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You know, I've, I've heard of something, Elliot, I forget it was,
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a well-known missionary, but he said, if every person I encounter,
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I want them to be making a decision.
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I don't want to leave someone in a spot where they just come away.
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I'm good either way. I don't really make a decision.
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If you want to reject Christ, reject Christ. If you want to accept Christ, accept him.
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But I don't want to be the person that just left someone in a lukewarm state
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and didn't really tell them, yeah, you have to choose.
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There's a decision you got to make to believe in Christ.
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And so many people, and this isn't well-received with a lot of people.
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And Jesus said, if everyone speak well of you, he said, woe to you.
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You know, the prophets in the Old Testament, like everybody has their own unique
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space in Christianity and how they are just carrying out this whole ministry
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that we all have, we are all called to.
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But if everyone is saying good things about you, you might not be doing the right thing.
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Jesus said the most truth and people hated him and wanted to kill him.
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I know this is me maturing. I need to not be so like heavily just like where
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I'm blinded. I don't want to be blinded in anything.
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And that's the struggle. So at least I want to be honest that where I am at at this time, you know?
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And I'm sure that Alex, he started off, he's been talking about this for years.
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He's definitely not the same guy. He showed himself a video before.
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He's able to talk about this and have coherent, understandable.
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Discussion of what these matters entail and what is reality,
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what is real, what is not real, and be able to discern between truth and falsehood.
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We all need to be there, you know, but I want to continue on.
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I don't want to just keep going.
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I don't think I'm being unreasonable here. I think that I would fall into this
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category of reasonable disbelief, or at the very least, non-resistant non-belief.
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And this is the kind of position that Schellenberg is referring to when he says
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reasonable non-belief occurs. That is, there is at least one person on planet
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Earth who doesn't believe in
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God, but does so reasonably. There are a few things we can take from this.
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I don't get how somebody can reasonably not believe in God. I get how you can
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maybe not believe in Jesus because you haven't heard everything about him.
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And Paul and the apostles went to different cities and their missionaries,
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and they had to convince people.
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And what are called the Bereans, it was one of the cities they landed in,
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they were known as one of the most noble because everything Paul came and talked
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to them about Jesus and him being the Messiah.
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They searched the scriptures daily to make it clear that what he was claiming
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was true and was prophesied in the Old Testament.
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They searched the scriptures to validate Paul's claims.
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So there is that where it is very respectable and you might not agree with Jesus
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and believe in him, but this whole God thing, that's why not really anybody
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can say they are an atheist.
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And a lot of people that are out there that promote atheism or like kind of
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that worldview, they'll even say they're agnostic.
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Bill Maher, he says, I'm agnostic because no one can really know.
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And that's where we're at.
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So there is not a reasonable position to not believe in God because,
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and the Bible says that God has made it clear that he is there.
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He's made it clear. We don't know, maybe we don't know which one is the right way to go about it.
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Maybe we don't know all that, but he's made it clear that he's there, the creation.
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You step outside, you even wake up, you're looking around, you know that something
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has put all this together.
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Nothing just comes from nothing, nothing ever could.
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Something, we're here, we can't deny that. This is evidence one.
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This is where we're starting at. This is evidence, like, and then it goes down
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to your moral, what you have in your heart that you know there's a right and a wrong.
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You have your conscience daily excusing you and accusing you of doing right or wrong.
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So there are two witnesses. There's just the creation that we see every day
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that we're waking up to. If your eyes are open, you're seeing it.
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Even people that their eyes aren't open, they're still conscious in a sense.
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If they have the ability to think, and they're able to reason and understand
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that I'm having thoughts, I can't imagine myself not being here.
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How is that even possible?
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But yet there was but sometime there was
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a time where god didn't exist that this
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universe just leapt out of nothing this came this all came from nothing it doesn't
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hold up so i don't i couldn't i don't agree with him when he's saying a reasonable
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disbelief in god i can maybe say a reasonable disbelief maybe in jesus but not
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god let's continue it may be that this god simply doesn't exist.
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This is the conclusion of the atheist. And this is the conclusion of the divine hiddenness argument.
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It seeks to establish that conclusion. God doesn't exist. That explains this situation.
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A second conclusion that we could take is that this God does exist, but isn't a loving God.
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Or maybe his loving character is of the kind of quality that means that even
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if there are people who want to be in a relationship with him,
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for some reason he willingly denies them.
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The third conclusion that we can take is that actually God is there and is perfectly
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loving and will let anybody who truly seeks him enter into a relationship with him.
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It's just that anybody who claims that they are reasonably disbelieving but
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doesn't find God is actually not reasonably disbelieving. They're doing something wrong.
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Knowing that God is there and having that open mind, you know,
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it's different for everyone.
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Where Alex is at right now, where I'm at right now, where you're at right now,
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it's different for you and having that willingness.
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But you know your heart, whether you think God is possibly there or not.
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But if God were to stiff arm us, you know, say God's running down the football
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field and we're up to him, we're chasing him, we're chasing him before he gets to the end zone.
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And then he just sticks out that hand and he just, you know,
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does a little Heisman on us and says, not, no, I don't see that.
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And but you could see that. And that's why most religions see this as a scary deity.
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There's people out there that are cutting themselves, slicing themselves up
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and just hurting themselves because they think that there's this scary deity
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out there that wants to kill them.
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Or they want to sacrifice themselves to appease this unknown deity that's out there.
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Because that is a natural thing that humans can do.
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We know he's there. We have this conscience.
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There's this element of sacrifice is true and good.
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So why don't we just sacrifice ourselves and hurt ourselves,
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you know, so we can somehow make this God love us.
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If we didn't have the Bible, that's where we would be.
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You might be thinking, oh, I'm too smart for that because you've lived in 2,000
29:24
years of Christianity and just that permeating every fabric of our life.
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But if you were born in the jungles and you didn't have any clue of who Jesus
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was or who God was or any of that, the Bible hadn't come to you,
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you would be doing the same things that people had done for thousands and thousands
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of years and not knowing that there is a God that loves them.
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God's not only out there, but what the Bible reveals, because that's the difference
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between just naturalistic evidence of the cosmology and everything that's out there and revelation.
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The Bible is revelation.
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It's God had to step into the video game. He had to send a message.
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He had to send us a love letter and tell us how much he loved us.
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It happened in real events of Jesus going to the cross. But if Jesus just went
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to the cross and died and was crucified and nobody wrote anything about him,
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but God put the people who were meant for that,
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who he ordained for that to write about it, to interpret what was happening on the cross.
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There was a cosmic event happening and we wouldn't see God's love and know that
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he loves us if all we had is just this world and God hadn't stepped in and sent
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us the Bible through human authors and all that.
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They're actually not being reasonable in their assessment of the evidence, in other words.
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I think serious philosophical approach to this question will focus on the second of these options.
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Is God's love of such a nature that it would entail him just allowing anybody
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who wants to enter into a relationship with him to do so?
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That's kind of an interesting philosophical question, and it's one that I hope
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to actually delve into in my upcoming debates.
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But certainly in everyday conversations with Christians, the third conclusion
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seems to be the more common, at least in my experience.
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That is, when I tell somebody that I've been seeking God, they kind of raise
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an eyebrow in skepticism as if to say, yeah, but are you really?
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You know, are you praying? Are you going to church? Are you really engaging
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honestly with the literature when you read the gospels?
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Are you reading them in this mindset of, well, let's see how I can disprove this?
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Or are you actually approaching the question honestly and this is why i think
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it's okay that's very good and he went to a theological he went to cambridge.
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And he studied religion. He studied theology. He's made so many books about
31:53
theology. And theology can be extremely dry.
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But he's surrounded by Christians. He's constantly in conversation with Christians.
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And he said off camera, off script, when people are just talking to him,
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that if he says, I'm really seeking after God, I want to know if it's true, it's true.
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And they kind of raise their eyebrow. I get this because I've seen other videos
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of him talking about if he goes to a church or he's goes to, if somebody wants to,
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it's hard for him to really buy in that it could be there or that to, to try to pray.
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And that's why no matter, there's not going to be a voice from heaven that says,
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I'm here. Hey, Alex, I'm here.
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There's not, that's not going to happen. And no matter how much he
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seeks it no matter how much he's like has Christianity just
32:43
surrounding him and just almost drowning in
32:46
it because it's all it's what he thinks about it there's
32:49
he's intrigued by Christ he's intrigued by the Bible he loves that's what he
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loves to talk about he loves to learn it's so interesting to him but there's
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a difference between it just being interesting I mean I love Harry Potter I
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love the Lord of the Rings but I'm not really open to Harry Potter being true.
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I'm not really open to the Lord of the Rings being true, even though that's
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a little tough. That's a little tougher.
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That's the thing. It doesn't matter how much we talk to somebody that's not
33:20
a Christian or tell them about it.
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I'm on the side where all we can do, and if I was really trying to share Christ with somebody,
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I wouldn't come to give them a theological argument and say,
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you should believe in Jesus because of X, Y, and Z, and this is what,
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and archaeology says this, and historical,
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what we have in manuscripts and all that, that's what you should believe, and that's right.
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No, Jesus Christ and him crucified. Mic drop. That's it.
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Game over. That's all you say. That's all you can say.
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Because that's what the apostle Paul said to the people he encountered.
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He didn't want people to be won over and be won over by great words and being
34:02
able to speak it perfectly and be able to have rational arguments and all that.
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He was dealing with people that that's all they heard all day long.
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He said this simple message, and it's a supernatural message of Jesus Christ and him crucified.
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That is what changes hearts. So I would just say to Alex, if you're really wanting,
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if you really would be willing to Christ being true, Christ being there.
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Really stop talking to people and talk to God.
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Genuinely talk to God. Because when the lights turned on for me,
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I fell to my face and I just cried and wept and said, I'm sorry for everything.
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I'm sorry for everything.
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All I will do is serve you. And then I got up and I was like,
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what the heck just happened?
34:50
So everybody, everybody's roads different. Everybody's journey is different.
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So I hope, I hope Alex, I hope you take this in the best way possible.
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I'm still evolving as a person, you know, we'll leave it at that.
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Have a great day, everyone.