Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Jim James

Transcript

Jim James · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin.
0:20
Speaker 2: Jim James, the frontman from My Morning Jacket, has lived
0:23
Speaker 2: many lives over the band's twenty seven year career. He
0:26
Speaker 2: started as a hopeful young musician, chasing the magic of
0:29
Speaker 2: his musical heroes while secretly fearing he'd never measure up. Later,
0:34
Speaker 2: he spiraled into heavy drinking and self doubt, teetering on
0:38
Speaker 2: the edge of leaving the band behind. But today Jim
0:41
Speaker 2: is in a much different place, healthier, more grounded, and
0:45
Speaker 2: full of self acceptance, thanks in part to a mix
0:48
Speaker 2: of traditional and psychedelic therapies he turned to during the pandemic.
0:52
Speaker 2: This month, My Morning Jacket returns with is their tenth
0:56
Speaker 2: studio album, and they're first made entirely with an outside producer,
1:00
Speaker 2: the legendary Brendan O'Brien. On today's episode, Lea Rose sits
1:04
Speaker 2: down with Jim to talk about the ayahuasca journey that
1:07
Speaker 2: helped him learn how.
1:07
Speaker 1: To truly love himself.
1:10
Speaker 2: He also looks back on the writing of the band's
1:12
Speaker 2: second album At Dawn and recalls this surreal moment he
1:15
Speaker 2: saw Bob Dylan disappear into the music while playing with
1:18
Speaker 2: him live. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations.
1:31
Speaker 2: You can see a full video of this interview on
1:33
Speaker 2: our YouTube page at YouTube dot com Slash Broken Record podcast.
1:37
Speaker 2: Now here's Leah Rose's interview with Jim James.
1:41
Speaker 3: So, when you go in to start a new project,
1:43
Speaker 3: like with the new album is, do you have a
1:49
Speaker 3: vision in mind for what you want it to sound
1:52
Speaker 3: like or what's the conceptual part for you?
1:55
Speaker 4: When you know, okay, this is the beginning of a
1:57
Speaker 4: new project.
1:59
Speaker 1: Well, it's so different. Every album is so different. And
2:02
Speaker 1: over the years, various gems over the time, have you
2:07
Speaker 1: had had ideas or con or opinions or theories or
2:12
Speaker 1: whatever about what they thought that the albums might be.
2:16
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because it's like the universe always
2:20
Speaker 1: makes the album what it's gonna be, you know, and
2:23
Speaker 1: and lots of most of my life I didn't. I
2:25
Speaker 1: didn't realize that until the last moment, you know, or
2:28
Speaker 1: or somewhere in there. Because you know, you can start
2:30
Speaker 1: with the concept let's make a heavy metal album, or
2:35
Speaker 1: let's make a protest album, or let's make this kind
2:37
Speaker 1: of album or that kind of album. But when you
2:40
Speaker 1: get in the studio, things start working and not working,
2:43
Speaker 1: and very quickly your heavy metal album turns into a
2:47
Speaker 1: folk album or whatever, you know, just to use broad terms.
2:50
Speaker 1: So I feel like this record more than ever. I
2:54
Speaker 1: feel like I really just tried to let myself put
2:59
Speaker 1: everything I have into the pot, and I put all
3:02
Speaker 1: of my ideas, even things that were kind of mostly
3:06
Speaker 1: finished or close to finish solo project ideas or one
3:09
Speaker 1: ever and thirty second voice memos, and you know, things
3:14
Speaker 1: we'd already recorded with My Morning Jacket that we're kind
3:16
Speaker 1: of we weren't totally happy with, but we just kind
3:19
Speaker 1: of put it all into the pot and I tried
3:22
Speaker 1: to step back and let it, let it be what
3:27
Speaker 1: it was going to be.
3:30
Speaker 3: I heard that you recently, and I don't know how
3:33
Speaker 3: much this has to do with recording the new album,
3:36
Speaker 3: the process, your creative process with the new album, but
3:39
Speaker 3: you had an experience with ayahuasca that sort of maybe
3:44
Speaker 3: brought some clarity to your life and your relationship with yourself.
3:49
Speaker 3: Was that a recent experience and does that have anything
3:52
Speaker 3: to do with this album?
3:54
Speaker 1: Oh?
3:54
Speaker 3: God, yeah.
3:55
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like I've been on a really,
3:57
Speaker 1: really great journey in the last five years or so
4:02
Speaker 1: I've been on it. I feel so excited and so
4:04
Speaker 1: grateful that I found a therapist in the pan pandemic
4:09
Speaker 1: that I really connected with and I really so I
4:13
Speaker 1: started doing EMDR and parts work therapy with him, and
4:18
Speaker 1: that EMDR is basically like, Uh, there's a lot of
4:22
Speaker 1: different ways you can do it, but you're basically trying
4:25
Speaker 1: to train your brain to put traumatic memories back where
4:31
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be. And you can you can either
4:34
Speaker 1: follow a light left to right, or you can tap
4:37
Speaker 1: on yourself left to right, and basically it's like this
4:40
Speaker 1: really interesting. Uh. And obviously if you google it or whatever,
4:43
Speaker 1: you can read far more scientific explanations on this. But
4:47
Speaker 1: you're basically, you work with your therapist to go to
4:52
Speaker 1: a traumatic moment and and while you're processing that traumatic
4:57
Speaker 1: moment in your mind, you're tapping or you're following a
5:01
Speaker 1: light or whatever works best for you. And basically it's
5:05
Speaker 1: like in my experience, because we all kind of I
5:07
Speaker 1: think we all know the feeling of of trauma taking
5:11
Speaker 1: us over when we don't want to be taken over.
5:13
Speaker 1: You know, it kind of starts playing like a full
5:15
Speaker 1: color HD movie and kind of taking over our lives.
5:18
Speaker 1: And basically you're trying to put it back into your
5:21
Speaker 1: memory box. Where it's just it's just another memory, like
5:25
Speaker 1: the you know, it's like a black and white polaroid
5:28
Speaker 1: compared to a full color HD movie with sound. And
5:31
Speaker 1: so I found when I work through those things and
5:34
Speaker 1: through different parts of myself, when I combine the parts,
5:38
Speaker 1: work therapy with it, so with that it's like a
5:41
Speaker 1: similar thing like you'll work with the twelve year old
5:44
Speaker 1: version of yourself or the five year old version of yourself,
5:46
Speaker 1: or wherever you've experienced these trauma and you process it,
5:50
Speaker 1: and as you process it, something's happening in your mind
5:56
Speaker 1: with the tapping where it's putting, it's kind of unpacking
6:01
Speaker 1: the power of the trauma to make it more of
6:04
Speaker 1: a normal memory, you know, where it doesn't have such
6:07
Speaker 1: a hold on you. And I feel like that for
6:09
Speaker 1: me has been extremely powerful. And I have coupled that
6:14
Speaker 1: with different psychedelic therapies like ayahuasca and ketamine five EO
6:21
Speaker 1: d MT different things, because I feel like I think
6:24
Speaker 1: one thing that I try to be careful about when
6:26
Speaker 1: talking with people about psychedelics in particular is not trying
6:31
Speaker 1: to be like, go do ayahuasca and everything's going to
6:33
Speaker 1: be great. You know, all your problems are gone, you know,
6:35
Speaker 1: because I think that's the kind of common thing that
6:37
Speaker 1: people think, Oh, if I go to ayahuasca, I think
6:40
Speaker 1: you really got I think all those things are important
6:42
Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle, but I think you have to
6:45
Speaker 1: be very careful where you go and who you do
6:49
Speaker 1: it with, and be very guided, you know. I feel
6:52
Speaker 1: like I've always wanted to do a lot of those things,
6:57
Speaker 1: but I've always tried to wait until somebody that I
7:00
Speaker 1: trust kind of brought it to me, you know, the
7:04
Speaker 1: universe brings it to me, you know, And I feel like,
7:06
Speaker 1: so I've been fortunate to have some of those experiences.
7:09
Speaker 1: But yeah, ayahuasca was really, I mean, very varied experience,
7:15
Speaker 1: so many experiences. I mean we could talk shows and
7:19
Speaker 1: shows and shows about just that, but there was that
7:21
Speaker 1: was a very crucial piece in my healing journey of
7:26
Speaker 1: I had an experience where I was holding myself in
7:28
Speaker 1: my own arms, and I was this was twenty nineteen,
7:32
Speaker 1: right before the pandemic, and I was I was Jim
7:35
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, holding Jim in twenty nineteen, and it
7:38
Speaker 1: was as real as this, Like it wasn't like some
7:41
Speaker 1: some wild trippy hellucination. It was like as concretely real
7:45
Speaker 1: as this, And I was holding myself, kind of patting
7:48
Speaker 1: my hair back, looking into my own eyes, being like, Jim,
7:52
Speaker 1: you're so mean to yourself, buddy, Like you gotta you
7:54
Speaker 1: gotta be nicer to yourself. You gotta try and love
7:57
Speaker 1: yourself more. You know, you're you're a nice guy. You're
7:59
Speaker 1: trying your best. And I'm look, really, Jim, you really
8:03
Speaker 1: mean it, you know. And it was like I was
8:04
Speaker 1: able to see myself as another person, you know, And
8:07
Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a distinction that really helped
8:10
Speaker 1: me because it's easier for us to be nice to
8:14
Speaker 1: people we love, you know, but then we're so mean
8:16
Speaker 1: to ourselves. We rip ourselves to pieces. And I've spent
8:20
Speaker 1: my entire life ripping myself to pieces, being so mean
8:24
Speaker 1: to myself, trying to escape from myself, drinking myself to death,
8:27
Speaker 1: you know, just running, running, running, And that was a
8:30
Speaker 1: really important piece for me to see myself as somebody
8:34
Speaker 1: that I need to treat with kindness, you know. Like
8:36
Speaker 1: that was like a mind blower to me of like, God,
8:40
Speaker 1: if I can't be nice to myself, if I can't
8:43
Speaker 1: love myself, how can I hope to see the world
8:46
Speaker 1: with clarity, you know, or you know, it just was
8:49
Speaker 1: a really really big moment for me.
8:51
Speaker 4: Has it been able to stick?
8:54
Speaker 1: I really feel like it has. Yeah. I mean I
8:55
Speaker 1: feel like with with the therapy I've been doing, you know,
8:58
Speaker 1: it's like these experiences, I think, if you have someone
9:03
Speaker 1: safe to process them with and you keep working with them,
9:07
Speaker 1: I really do feel like they have begun to stick.
9:09
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I've I've never felt more
9:13
Speaker 1: peaceful or present in my life, you know, and I
9:18
Speaker 1: just feel so grateful for that. I feel like that,
9:21
Speaker 1: like you asked a minute ago, that was kind of
9:23
Speaker 1: all of that has kind of combined to kind of
9:26
Speaker 1: lead me to where I am when we're working on
9:29
Speaker 1: this album and beyond, you know, to kind of be
9:31
Speaker 1: able to not place my entire self worth in the
9:36
Speaker 1: success or failure of my band, you know, because most
9:39
Speaker 1: of my life I've done that, you know, most of
9:41
Speaker 1: my life. I'm like, if I get the world to
9:44
Speaker 1: love me, or I get this external validation, then maybe
9:47
Speaker 1: finally I can love me. But you know, that's that's
9:50
Speaker 1: a recipe that never works because you're just on the
9:52
Speaker 1: roller coaster ride of one day the world loves you
9:54
Speaker 1: and the next day of the world hates you or whatever,
9:56
Speaker 1: and you're up and down, up and down, and yeah,
9:59
Speaker 1: I keep trying to come back to like what can
10:01
Speaker 1: I What can I do that nobody can ever take
10:04
Speaker 1: away from me? You know, And that's love myself. You know,
10:07
Speaker 1: that's something we can all do for our selves, especially
10:10
Speaker 1: in the madness of the world, the chaos of the world.
10:14
Speaker 1: I feel like if everybody started trying to really love themselves,
10:19
Speaker 1: we would see that again to manifest and more healing
10:23
Speaker 1: and more peace and more love for each other. You know.
10:26
Speaker 3: It takes a lot of work, though, like you were saying,
10:28
Speaker 3: you had like a multi tiered approach to it, traditional
10:32
Speaker 3: and non traditional.
10:34
Speaker 4: I don't know if enough people make that investment in themselves.
10:38
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important that we talk about it
10:40
Speaker 1: on things like this because I think, yeah, it's it's
10:43
Speaker 1: it's something you do have to take the time to do.
10:46
Speaker 1: But there's almost like this weird thing where our culture
10:51
Speaker 1: tells us where we're selfish, if we work on ourselves
10:53
Speaker 1: too much, or if we think about ourselves where and
10:55
Speaker 1: there's this of course, there are ways to be selfish
10:58
Speaker 1: and you know, narcissistic and ways that are kind of
11:02
Speaker 1: taking the energy in a bad way. But I think
11:03
Speaker 1: if we think about it kind of like that that
11:06
Speaker 1: episode I had in Ayahuasca, where like, if we think
11:10
Speaker 1: about ourselves as our own best friend or whatever, and
11:14
Speaker 1: we treat ourselves as if we would treat our most beloved,
11:17
Speaker 1: best friend or partner, you know, whoever in our life
11:20
Speaker 1: that we love the most. Yeah, if we if we
11:23
Speaker 1: started there, I mean, what what greater work is there
11:28
Speaker 1: to do? You know? Then delay that foundation?
11:32
Speaker 4: Yeah?
11:33
Speaker 3: Have friends or family or people who are you're really
11:36
Speaker 3: close to have they noticed a difference in you?
11:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really have. And I feel like the band,
11:42
Speaker 1: it's been a really really special thing because because for
11:45
Speaker 1: years I was a terrible communicator, and I was so
11:48
Speaker 1: depressed and uh just drinking and trying to run from
11:54
Speaker 1: life and not being able to communicate how it's feeling,
11:57
Speaker 1: and uh so there'd be a lot of bad energy
12:00
Speaker 1: or a lot of unspoken energy, you know. And and
12:04
Speaker 1: the band, you know, we almost didn't make it several
12:07
Speaker 1: times throughout the years, you know. And I feel like,
12:11
Speaker 1: luckily we've all been on a similar journey lately where
12:16
Speaker 1: everybody is really trying to take good care of themselves
12:19
Speaker 1: and do the work to like heal themselves, and you know,
12:23
Speaker 1: and that's been this really beautiful, uh era of just
12:28
Speaker 1: better communication. You know. It's like it's not like things
12:31
Speaker 1: are always easier that no problems arise, but I think
12:34
Speaker 1: when you instantly address the problem and talk about it
12:37
Speaker 1: and clear the air, that like lets it all blow through.
12:41
Speaker 1: And I think we've got we've been in this really
12:44
Speaker 1: just I mean we kind we kind of all like
12:46
Speaker 1: hug and talk about it all the time, like, look,
12:49
Speaker 1: how lucky are we We're still you know, twenty five
12:53
Speaker 1: years later, we're still playing music and we still love
12:55
Speaker 1: each other and we're not like trying to kill each
12:57
Speaker 1: other or like hiding from each other or like having
13:00
Speaker 1: separate you know worlds or you know, it's just like
13:03
Speaker 1: everyone has to so totally yeah, yeah, yeah, we're just
13:07
Speaker 1: so you know, so great. Yeah.
13:10
Speaker 3: I mean that seems to be the move in as
13:12
Speaker 3: you approach midlife, is to take sock in your health
13:15
Speaker 3: and really try and be a better person.
13:18
Speaker 4: And it's really sad when you think about people who didn't.
13:21
Speaker 3: Make it this far, people who died early and they
13:23
Speaker 3: didn't get to a point where they're like on a
13:25
Speaker 3: self improvement kick.
13:27
Speaker 1: I know, well, God, I mean, midlife can go the
13:30
Speaker 1: other way too, you know, you can hit the other
13:32
Speaker 1: way if you haven't done that work and start springing
13:35
Speaker 1: into other ways just like, yeah, got to be crazy
13:39
Speaker 1: and yeah, well yeah, the classic midlife crisis kind of
13:42
Speaker 1: stuff you know, that we hear about and that we
13:45
Speaker 1: see out in the world. Unfortunately, a lot of people
13:48
Speaker 1: that are in positions of power in our world right now,
13:51
Speaker 1: we're watching them experience their midlife crisis and you know,
13:55
Speaker 1: taking it out on everybody else. And because I mean
13:58
Speaker 1: think about, like, God, if Kurt Cobain or you know,
14:02
Speaker 1: Jimmy Hendrix or whoever people struggle with absolutely, Jim Morrison, whoever,
14:06
Speaker 1: people who struggle with substance abuse, Joblin, whoever, think about
14:11
Speaker 1: if they could have found a way out and found
14:14
Speaker 1: a way to get past that, they could still be here.
14:17
Speaker 1: You know, we could still be experiencing music from Marvin
14:20
Speaker 1: Gay or you know they're talking all these people this
14:23
Speaker 1: just like, I think we really need to think about
14:25
Speaker 1: that for the future, you know, that that we can
14:28
Speaker 1: hopefully get this word out that it's okay if you're depressed,
14:35
Speaker 1: it's okay if you struggle with substance abuse, like talk
14:38
Speaker 1: to somebody about it, like find a way there is
14:40
Speaker 1: a way out, you know, and don't beat yourself up
14:44
Speaker 1: or feel like you're all alone or your failure or whatever.
14:48
Speaker 1: You know. I think we really need to address that.
14:50
Speaker 1: A lot of this stuff, a lot of it comes
14:53
Speaker 1: genetically or it comes through some pipeline.
14:56
Speaker 3: You know.
14:56
Speaker 1: It's not like people ask to be depressed or to
14:59
Speaker 1: be genetically disposition towards alcoholism or drug abuse or whatever,
15:03
Speaker 1: you know. So I think the more we can talk
15:04
Speaker 1: about it, and the more we can try to get
15:06
Speaker 1: people the help they need, the more we can see
15:08
Speaker 1: the future people now live to still create, you know, totally. Yeah.
15:14
Speaker 3: And I don't know what your relationship is like with
15:18
Speaker 3: your parents or if they're living or what, but has
15:22
Speaker 3: this change in you has it changed your relationship with
15:25
Speaker 3: your parents or with family members?
15:28
Speaker 1: Oh? God, absolutely yeah. My parents are amazing. They're still alive,
15:31
Speaker 1: and we're really close and we spend a lot of
15:34
Speaker 1: time together. And I mean, I think every family, you know, dynamic,
15:38
Speaker 1: is complex and has its difficulties and stuff like that.
15:42
Speaker 1: But one thing I recognize the more that I try
15:46
Speaker 1: to find peace with myself is that everybody's on their
15:50
Speaker 1: own journey, and a lot of the times the best
15:53
Speaker 1: thing we can do for somebody is just be there
15:56
Speaker 1: to listen to them and not think that we can
15:59
Speaker 1: keep solving their problems. You know that we have all
16:03
Speaker 1: the answers. And you know, I think I think that's
16:05
Speaker 1: one thing that I've struggled with. On another people have
16:09
Speaker 1: struggle with is when you watch somebody that you love
16:13
Speaker 1: suffer whatever, and you keep wanting to help them. You know,
16:15
Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, if only you just won't
16:18
Speaker 1: you just do this? Won't you just do that? Yeah?
16:20
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of times people don't need
16:24
Speaker 1: to hear that, you know. It's like people people just
16:26
Speaker 1: need you to be there for them and listen to them,
16:29
Speaker 1: and yeah, speak your peace and and you know, put
16:31
Speaker 1: out put some things on the table that could help them.
16:34
Speaker 1: But then I think sometimes we need to step back
16:36
Speaker 1: and say. That's one thing I just kept coming to
16:39
Speaker 1: again and again, was like, well, like, whoa man, how
16:42
Speaker 1: can I offer anybody advice if I'm constantly at war
16:45
Speaker 1: with myself? You know, like where am I? Where am
16:48
Speaker 1: I offering advice from? If my whole world is in chaos?
16:52
Speaker 2: Yeah?
16:53
Speaker 1: You know, and so I think that's like the uh,
16:56
Speaker 1: the thing I've tried to come back to with my
16:58
Speaker 1: family and friends. It's just like, how can I be
17:01
Speaker 1: there to to support them and listen to them.
17:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you said something about Era about my morning
17:08
Speaker 3: Jacket having ERA earlier, and I was reading on Reddit
17:12
Speaker 3: and it seems like a lot of your fans think
17:15
Speaker 3: of the band in distinct eras. And I saw somebody
17:19
Speaker 3: mention that they thought a distinct era was post COVID.
17:22
Speaker 3: So it's sort of interesting that that lines up with
17:25
Speaker 3: that experience for you. And I was wondering for you,
17:29
Speaker 3: you've been in it. It might just be hard to
17:31
Speaker 3: think of it objectively. But do you think of the
17:34
Speaker 3: band as like distinct eras that line up maybe with
17:38
Speaker 3: albums or decades or how do you think of it?
17:43
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, definitely. It's so funny because we've been thinking
17:46
Speaker 1: about this a lot, because I look back because we
17:49
Speaker 1: constantly have to do things like learn an old song
17:53
Speaker 1: that we're going to play or something that we haven't
17:54
Speaker 1: played in ten years or more. So I'm constantly looking
17:59
Speaker 1: back on all these old gyms that have gone through
18:02
Speaker 1: all of these albums. Because each album is like a
18:04
Speaker 1: time machine for me, you know, And it's like and
18:07
Speaker 1: if I have to go back to it and hear it,
18:11
Speaker 1: and I like hear that old Gem and I'm like, wow, man,
18:15
Speaker 1: Like that Gem was so lost in being Jim, so
18:20
Speaker 1: completely consumed by this experience of being Jim and being
18:25
Speaker 1: gobbled up by this depression or this fear or whatever,
18:29
Speaker 1: that he was so consumed in it. But at the
18:35
Speaker 1: same time, like I always know that he was trying
18:38
Speaker 1: the best he could, and that kind of really gives
18:41
Speaker 1: me this piece as I look back across everything and
18:44
Speaker 1: the sense of like I'm so proud of everything that
18:48
Speaker 1: I've ever done. I still show up to do the work,
18:52
Speaker 1: but I accept that, like a lot of the things
18:55
Speaker 1: are gonna happen, They're not really in my control. Whereas
18:59
Speaker 1: as I look back in this time machine and all
19:01
Speaker 1: the old Gems, all these old Gems were so locked
19:04
Speaker 1: into their ego of Jim, and so there's so much
19:07
Speaker 1: resistance and so much depression and anger and fighting and
19:11
Speaker 1: the universe still was going to do what it was
19:14
Speaker 1: going to do, but I couldn't see that, and I
19:16
Speaker 1: was fighting it and just like so consumed in this
19:19
Speaker 1: whole thing, so Yeah, it's so interesting when I look back,
19:23
Speaker 1: because there's so much fun in there, and so much
19:27
Speaker 1: joy too, and hilarity and experience and love and brotherhood
19:32
Speaker 1: with the guys in the band and you know, everybody
19:34
Speaker 1: I've ever collaborated with, and all all of this. But
19:37
Speaker 1: there was so much fear there too, and so much
19:40
Speaker 1: depression that I feel like I look back on all
19:44
Speaker 1: those different eras of Jim and I really try to
19:48
Speaker 1: be compassionate towards him or whatever, because it's I have
19:52
Speaker 1: to embody him all the time, you know, anytime I
19:54
Speaker 1: sing one of those songs to embody this old version
19:58
Speaker 1: of Jim, you know. And it used to be when
20:00
Speaker 1: I was still depressed and I was still being eaten alive.
20:06
Speaker 1: As the latest version of Jim that's having to go
20:08
Speaker 1: back and do all these older gym soles are cool.
20:10
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I can't tired good. I can't take it.
20:13
Speaker 1: But now the more peaceful I've become, it's become really
20:17
Speaker 1: fun and more easy for me to go be twenty
20:22
Speaker 1: two year old Gym or twenty five year old Jen
20:24
Speaker 1: or nearly suicidal thirty year old Gym or whatever it is.
20:28
Speaker 1: And I can see it all with more compassion, and
20:30
Speaker 1: we can have more fun as a band, you know,
20:31
Speaker 1: we can do wilder setlists and do every single song
20:35
Speaker 1: we've ever recorded or whatever, Whereas before my depression limited
20:39
Speaker 1: my range of what I could do because I just
20:42
Speaker 1: couldn't do a lot of things.
20:43
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Do you ever have the experience where, similar
20:47
Speaker 3: to the therapy that you were talking about, how you're
20:49
Speaker 3: trying to sort of rewire or change the impact of
20:53
Speaker 3: a traumatic memory. Do you ever sing an old song
20:57
Speaker 3: and try and do the same thing with the old
20:59
Speaker 3: song to where you're trying to rewire the experience of it.
21:04
Speaker 1: Definitely. Yeah, It's so crazy, because, yeah, when I feel
21:07
Speaker 1: like when I was still being eaten alive by my
21:12
Speaker 1: alcoholism or my depression, like maybe twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen,
21:16
Speaker 1: something like that. In that period, when I was trying
21:19
Speaker 1: to go back and do some of the old songs,
21:21
Speaker 1: it was so dark, so difficult, you know. But now
21:25
Speaker 1: when I go back and try to do some of
21:27
Speaker 1: those darker songs, there is this really beautiful rewiring or
21:30
Speaker 1: something where it's like it's like geez, like what a
21:34
Speaker 1: gift that I'm able to like go back and revisit
21:37
Speaker 1: this energy and almost like it ye, heal it, you know,
21:40
Speaker 1: like somehow manifest the energy still and create it because
21:45
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like wailing and screaming and like waw,
21:49
Speaker 1: you know, like a lot of energy that old Jim
21:51
Speaker 1: had to get out or whatever that now when I
21:54
Speaker 1: get it out, it's like this beautiful yeah changing of
21:59
Speaker 1: the energy or releasing of the energy. And there's this
22:01
Speaker 1: gratitude there where like whoa, Like how lucky am I
22:04
Speaker 1: that I can still do this? Yeah? And that people
22:08
Speaker 1: still want to show up and see it. You know,
22:11
Speaker 1: it's like it becomes this beautiful celebration of like if
22:15
Speaker 1: there were people that identified with the way that that
22:18
Speaker 1: Jim was feeling, or you know, people that are dealing
22:20
Speaker 1: with their own depression or their own energy, like perhaps
22:24
Speaker 1: and hopefully we can all rewire together, you know, we
22:27
Speaker 1: can all manifest this new energy together, and yeah, it's
22:31
Speaker 1: really really healing.
22:33
Speaker 3: When you revisit those old songs or any songs that
22:36
Speaker 3: you've written, do you ever have the experience of like, damn,
22:40
Speaker 3: like this is actually really good and kind of like
22:43
Speaker 3: patch yourself on the back, Like do you give yourself
22:46
Speaker 3: props over or is it always just like do you
22:49
Speaker 3: go to the negative.
22:51
Speaker 1: But historically I've always gone to the negative. I've always
22:54
Speaker 1: been like, I'm not good enough. I'll never be as
22:56
Speaker 1: good as Bob Dylan or you know, I'll never sing
22:58
Speaker 1: as good as Nina Simone or whatever the comparisons are.
23:01
Speaker 1: But now that I'm in this new paradigm, and I
23:06
Speaker 1: hope I don't sound like like I've done all the
23:08
Speaker 1: work and solved it all and I'm like totally, you know,
23:12
Speaker 1: figured it all out anything, because I have and I'm
23:14
Speaker 1: still in this journey. But one thing I do recognize
23:17
Speaker 1: is I am able to love all those old gems
23:21
Speaker 1: more and give them a pat on the back and
23:23
Speaker 1: like and really just love a song for what it is,
23:25
Speaker 1: you know, and and not be comparing it with fucking
23:29
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan or whatever. You know what I mean. It's
23:31
Speaker 1: like there's just always been this ruthless voice comparing myself
23:35
Speaker 1: to all of my heroes. And I think once we
23:37
Speaker 1: all realize that, like, that's that's all illusion. You know
23:42
Speaker 1: that there is no comparison, there is no better or worse,
23:45
Speaker 1: there is no you know, it's all different shades of
23:47
Speaker 1: everything than I have. I really have been able to
23:49
Speaker 1: just like just enjoy a song for what for what
23:53
Speaker 1: it is, you know, like for the well the thing
23:56
Speaker 1: it provides at that moment, and uh and also just
23:59
Speaker 1: experience in that in that moment and then it's gone.
24:01
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not worried about it. I'm not like, oh,
24:03
Speaker 1: Jez Louiss, you did I sing that well enough? Or
24:06
Speaker 1: are those lyrics good enough? Whatever? It's like just like experience.
24:10
Speaker 3: I just feel like you're such a good performer. I
24:13
Speaker 3: just hope that you realize that. And you're such a
24:15
Speaker 3: great songwriter. You're so good to what you do.
24:17
Speaker 4: I just like want to like thank you, be like, dude,
24:22
Speaker 4: you will take on yourself.
24:24
Speaker 1: Well now now I feel like I finally am able
24:26
Speaker 1: to love to love myself and just accept it, you know,
24:29
Speaker 1: and and really enjoy it in the moment. And uh.
24:32
Speaker 1: But I think the world is tough because the world
24:35
Speaker 1: kind of forces us to compare ourselves to our heroes
24:38
Speaker 1: or to our contemporaries, and especially like the more digital
24:42
Speaker 1: the world's gotten and the more numerically based it's all gotten.
24:45
Speaker 1: There's stats for everything, you know. Every YouTube video has
24:48
Speaker 1: a play count, every Instagram post has a like count.
24:52
Speaker 1: And I think when you're trapped in that comparative frame
24:54
Speaker 1: of mind and you're like, oh, Vandixa's eighty three million
25:00
Speaker 1: views on their YouTube, we will only have you know. Yeah,
25:04
Speaker 1: It's just like that whole uh mentality is just so
25:09
Speaker 1: fucked up, you know. And I think that's like part
25:12
Speaker 1: of our jobs too, is like trying to get each
25:14
Speaker 1: other out of that comparison mind frame and just into
25:19
Speaker 1: this idea that we've all got something to share and
25:23
Speaker 1: it's gonna be what it's gonna be, and you can't
25:27
Speaker 1: look at it in this statistical way that unfortunately our
25:33
Speaker 1: current digital paradise has trapped us into the statistical world.
25:39
Speaker 2: That's wild. We'll be back with more from Jim James
25:42
Speaker 2: and Lea Rose after the break.
25:48
Speaker 1: So.
25:48
Speaker 4: I saw that at Don is turning twenty.
25:51
Speaker 3: Five this year, and I was curious, how if you're
25:57
Speaker 3: able to contrast the recording of at Don where you
26:02
Speaker 3: were when you were like, you're like twenty one twenty
26:04
Speaker 3: two when you recorded that.
26:06
Speaker 4: It's crazy, I think, so is like, how was the
26:11
Speaker 4: process different?
26:14
Speaker 1: Oh God, I mean everything was different. You know, life
26:17
Speaker 1: was so different.
26:19
Speaker 3: What were you like, where were you at? What do
26:21
Speaker 3: you remember from that period of your life.
26:23
Speaker 1: That was funny. That was an interesting period in my
26:25
Speaker 1: life that I called the heroic Gym period in my
26:29
Speaker 1: therapy conversations, is that I do my parts work because
26:32
Speaker 1: that was the first time in my life after the
26:35
Speaker 1: Tennessee Fire came out that anybody ever liked anything I'd
26:39
Speaker 1: ever done period, you know. So it's like there's the
26:41
Speaker 1: sense of like, whoa, people actually liked my music, and
26:44
Speaker 1: I fell in love for the first time, and I
26:46
Speaker 1: lost my virginity, and I like was having this like
26:50
Speaker 1: really beautiful moment in time where like all these things
26:53
Speaker 1: that I never thought would happen were happening, and there's
26:56
Speaker 1: this sense of just joy and creation, and you know,
27:01
Speaker 1: we were just like running around wild and you know,
27:05
Speaker 1: we were kind of like our own little version of
27:08
Speaker 1: the Wrong Stones in France or whatever.
27:10
Speaker 3: You know.
27:11
Speaker 1: We were like, you know, making our wild XL on
27:15
Speaker 1: Main Street World out there in Shelbyville, and it was
27:20
Speaker 1: so fun and beautiful and uh and free, you know,
27:24
Speaker 1: and there was this sense of but there's always the
27:26
Speaker 1: sense we always had the sense because nobody had ever
27:29
Speaker 1: liked anything that we did, we still thought every at
27:32
Speaker 1: every turn, we were going to get canned you know,
27:34
Speaker 1: so we're like, all right, like, let's make this thing
27:36
Speaker 1: as long as we can, because this is our probably
27:37
Speaker 1: our last shot.
27:38
Speaker 3: You know.
27:38
Speaker 1: I think at Dawn and the Tancy Fire and it
27:40
Speaker 1: still moves. I think all those records are like as
27:42
Speaker 1: long as the CD can be, which is seventy four minutes.
27:45
Speaker 1: You know, like we're like, let's use literally every second
27:48
Speaker 1: of this fucking CD. You know, we're still thinking of
27:50
Speaker 1: CD terms back then. But it's so beautiful because after that,
27:56
Speaker 1: but most of my life after that, I was trapped
28:00
Speaker 1: in severe depression and severe you know still whatever. Still
28:04
Speaker 1: had a lot of fun and a lot of beauty whatever.
28:05
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that you choose that record because I
28:09
Speaker 1: feel like, is we've kind of come into this new
28:14
Speaker 1: golden age of like this this peaceful golden age of
28:18
Speaker 1: like it's different from that because that was like that
28:21
Speaker 1: was a beginner's mind still and youth and first and
28:26
Speaker 1: new and all that stuff, and and but it's beautiful
28:29
Speaker 1: because we've kind of invented this this new new, this
28:33
Speaker 1: new beginner's mind in the experience where it's like, what
28:38
Speaker 1: else can we do that keeps this new for us
28:41
Speaker 1: and keeps this fresh for us, And one of those
28:44
Speaker 1: things was finally being able to release control and bring
28:48
Speaker 1: in somebody like Brendan O'Brien to work on this record
28:51
Speaker 1: with us. That was something we'd never done before, was
28:54
Speaker 1: like bring in a coach, you know, because we always
28:57
Speaker 1: either did it ourselves, or we did it with contemporaries
29:00
Speaker 1: or equals or you know, people that are kind of
29:02
Speaker 1: on the same level as us. And that's a beautiful
29:05
Speaker 1: way to work too, but we're just like always like
29:07
Speaker 1: what can we do that's different? And I think all
29:10
Speaker 1: of this kind of healing that we're talking about, I
29:14
Speaker 1: was able to like let go of so much and
29:16
Speaker 1: be like, I really think we could benefit from a coach,
29:20
Speaker 1: you know, somebody who's who's not our equal, He's not
29:23
Speaker 1: on our level. He's like a step or two above.
29:25
Speaker 1: He's done this hundreds times more than we have. You know,
29:29
Speaker 1: he's twenty years older than that. You know, just all
29:30
Speaker 1: these things and really like connecting with Brendan and getting
29:35
Speaker 1: to see his viewpoint was such a revelation for me
29:40
Speaker 1: and for us that I feel like made this whole thing,
29:46
Speaker 1: this whole experience, just this beautiful new beginner's minding, you know,
29:51
Speaker 1: it is really really special.
29:53
Speaker 3: Why did you pick Brendan? Did have anything to do
29:56
Speaker 3: with his past work? He's you know, produced most pro
30:00
Speaker 3: jam albums, engineered Blood Sugar, Sex, Magic for the Chili Peppers,
30:06
Speaker 3: worked with Stone type of pilots, just a ton a
30:08
Speaker 3: ton of artists. Did it have anything to do with
30:11
Speaker 3: with his work or his sound specifically or was it
30:14
Speaker 3: more his personality?
30:16
Speaker 1: Well? Yes, and no, I really love Evil Empire that
30:19
Speaker 1: raised against the Machine record when he did that record,
30:21
Speaker 1: and I took different meetings with lots of people. And
30:27
Speaker 1: it's interesting because a lot of more experienced, bigger name
30:34
Speaker 1: producers or whatever often come with bigger egos, and there's
30:38
Speaker 1: this whole thing that they bring in that can be
30:41
Speaker 1: really hard to deal with, where they want to tell
30:43
Speaker 1: you how many Grammys they've won and how many records
30:46
Speaker 1: they've made with Elton John, you know, all this kind
30:48
Speaker 1: of toxic energy that we're always like whatever man you know,
30:51
Speaker 1: like and Brendan. The great thing about Brendan is like
30:54
Speaker 1: he never put any of that on us, and it
30:57
Speaker 1: was never about him inflating his legend or his ego.
31:01
Speaker 1: You know, It's almost like all that he cared about
31:05
Speaker 1: was the music. You know. And he was a very
31:07
Speaker 1: nice guy, a very funny guy. But he wasn't interested
31:10
Speaker 1: in becoming best friends. He wasn't interested in being our
31:13
Speaker 1: spiritual guru. You know. All he was interested in was
31:17
Speaker 1: the song. You know, it is the song the right Keith,
31:19
Speaker 1: Is it the right tempo? Do the lyrics connect? You know?
31:22
Speaker 1: And he always would have this great sense of being
31:28
Speaker 1: critical but always offering a solution or always offering something
31:33
Speaker 1: that would help. And to me that it was just
31:35
Speaker 1: like I had never really worked with somebody who whose
31:39
Speaker 1: mind worked that quickly, wow, and who never was there
31:43
Speaker 1: about their agenda, you know. And he was always open
31:46
Speaker 1: to what we had to say too. He would never
31:48
Speaker 1: like cancel out what we had to say, be like
31:49
Speaker 1: all right, all right, let's check that out, or you know.
31:52
Speaker 1: But it was so funny playing them songs because he's
31:54
Speaker 1: playing one song and he's like, I was like, I
31:57
Speaker 1: don't know, man, And then he's playing the next song
31:59
Speaker 1: and he's like he's like, oh, that's pretty great. Okay,
32:01
Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna have to get rid of something
32:03
Speaker 1: else because this is pretty good. And it was just
32:05
Speaker 1: really inspiring, and I started writing more and more songs
32:09
Speaker 1: and as we said, started the record or whatever. And
32:12
Speaker 1: because we send him like over one hundred songs what
32:15
Speaker 1: and very quickly he whittles it down to twenty you know,
32:19
Speaker 1: his favorite twenty you know, and he's just like and
32:20
Speaker 1: we're talking about it. He's like, he's like, oh yeah, man,
32:22
Speaker 1: He's like, I'll just get in there, and he's like
32:23
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, I'm like, nope, nope.
32:25
Speaker 4: Did you recognize the pattern of what he likes and
32:27
Speaker 4: what he doesn't like?
32:29
Speaker 1: No, It's really interesting because I mean, I feel like
32:31
Speaker 1: he he chose songs that we wouldn't have chosen as
32:34
Speaker 1: a band, that were more like solo projects I was
32:37
Speaker 1: working on, and then other songs that I wrote, even
32:43
Speaker 1: after he'd gone through those first hundred or so. It
32:45
Speaker 1: was really amazing just to see like what he liked
32:47
Speaker 1: and what he didn't, and that was I was just
32:49
Speaker 1: really trying to surrender to that process. So I felt like, Okay,
32:52
Speaker 1: the universe is gonna speak to me through Brendan and
32:56
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just flow with it and see what happens.
32:58
Speaker 1: But it's really cool because there were some songs like
33:01
Speaker 1: Squid inc Is a good example of a song song
33:04
Speaker 1: Brenda did not like squid ink at first, and he's like,
33:06
Speaker 1: is it gone on? No, man, But the guys really
33:08
Speaker 1: liked and they really wanted to do it, and Brandon
33:11
Speaker 1: was really respectful of that. He's like, I don't know
33:12
Speaker 1: about Screwed, Inc. But the guys like it. Let's keep
33:14
Speaker 1: it in there. Let's see what happens, you know, because
33:16
Speaker 1: I feel like he kind of understands that that universe
33:19
Speaker 1: thing too, because we could go try it and it
33:21
Speaker 1: just falls flat and doesn't work, or we try it
33:24
Speaker 1: and everybody loves it and it's great. And I think
33:27
Speaker 1: that whole thing was really really interesting because it was
33:30
Speaker 1: this cool combination of like everybody's input, but everybody kind
33:37
Speaker 1: of really removing their egos. And I feel like Brendon's
33:41
Speaker 1: good at just channeling the universe as it comes through
33:44
Speaker 1: and really just being like he himself. I forget how
33:47
Speaker 1: I put it, but he's like, he's like, I think
33:49
Speaker 1: I'm just hearing things, and I think that's how people
33:51
Speaker 1: want to hear them.
33:51
Speaker 4: I don't know.
33:52
Speaker 1: He's like, it's just so interesting. It was just really refreshing.
33:57
Speaker 3: As someone if you can, if it's possible to make
34:00
Speaker 3: yourself sort of just like a fan of the band.
34:03
Speaker 3: Listening to this album as a completed project, is it
34:07
Speaker 3: different than passed out?
34:09
Speaker 4: Like, how would you say it's different?
34:12
Speaker 1: I think they're all different. I mean, I think that's
34:14
Speaker 1: one thing we really consciously try to do is make
34:17
Speaker 1: every album different and go to a different place, work
34:20
Speaker 1: with a different person. We're always in a different frame
34:23
Speaker 1: of mine, you know, different life things have always happened.
34:25
Speaker 1: I think that's one thing. Probably anybody could look at
34:27
Speaker 1: my morning jacket and say whether they liked the band
34:31
Speaker 1: or not, that we're kind of always trying different things.
34:33
Speaker 1: We're trying different styles, We're trying try and do this
34:36
Speaker 1: and trying that. And I really think this album's same
34:38
Speaker 1: thing because I feel like there's a lot of different flavors.
34:40
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different styles. Yeah, And it was
34:44
Speaker 1: just really interesting because, you know, over one hundred demos
34:47
Speaker 1: or whatever, we chose twenty and then we narrowed it
34:49
Speaker 1: down to fifteen, and then a couple didn't work at all,
34:52
Speaker 1: you know, and you don't know why, a couple of
34:53
Speaker 1: our favorite songs, you know, and we're just sitting there
34:56
Speaker 1: scratching our head, and you know, Brandon and I were
34:58
Speaker 1: trying to see if we could do anything to save them,
35:02
Speaker 1: and a certain point you're like, okay, well those two
35:05
Speaker 1: didn't work. You know, let's see what did work, you know.
35:08
Speaker 1: And that was really cool thing too with Brennan, where
35:10
Speaker 1: I feel like he was like, sometimes we going are
35:12
Speaker 1: going to make record somebody, and we have fifteen songs
35:16
Speaker 1: and ten of them don't work, and you're sitting there
35:17
Speaker 1: with five songs and you're like, all right, man, I'll
35:19
Speaker 1: see you in six months, go write some more songs. Yeah,
35:22
Speaker 1: And so I think he would have been honest with
35:25
Speaker 1: us too if he felt like we were at that point.
35:27
Speaker 3: You know, did you ask him about that Rage album
35:30
Speaker 3: that you like, did he tell you, like any stories
35:33
Speaker 3: or anything about what, you know, other bands he's worked
35:36
Speaker 3: with or whatever.
35:38
Speaker 1: We did talk some about things, but that was the meant.
35:40
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like he'll share stories that he
35:45
Speaker 1: never shares them in this heroic ego way, you know,
35:49
Speaker 1: cause a lot of people they are like into their legend, yeah,
35:54
Speaker 1: and they're like sharing stories about I was Midnight and
35:58
Speaker 1: Elton n I were gooding high in the back of
36:01
Speaker 1: his rolling Royce. Yeah, and people are really into their
36:03
Speaker 1: own legend. You know. It was really cool because Brennan,
36:05
Speaker 1: like Brenna, would share little stories here or there if
36:08
Speaker 1: there was like a something we're working on, He's like,
36:10
Speaker 1: oh fuck, yeah, yeah, hell, you know, one time this
36:12
Speaker 1: or that or this is that. But there's something that
36:14
Speaker 1: just really really appealed to us about his lack of inflating.
36:20
Speaker 1: He's you know, he's almost reluctant to share our stories.
36:24
Speaker 3: You know that.
36:24
Speaker 1: It was really really that that part he really did
36:26
Speaker 1: seem humble and uh really but also very self assured
36:30
Speaker 1: in a really beautiful way, like a beautiful confidence where
36:33
Speaker 1: he's always ready to speak, speak his mind and he's
36:36
Speaker 1: always going to tell you if he thinks he's something
36:38
Speaker 1: and good or whatever, And uh, that was really really refreshing.
36:41
Speaker 4: That sounds like a good coach. You said you wanted
36:43
Speaker 4: a coach.
36:45
Speaker 1: It really, it really was.
36:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. One thing I was thinking about
36:49
Speaker 3: my morning jacket. I saw that you guys have been
36:52
Speaker 3: called like the best live band of your generation.
36:56
Speaker 4: And one thing that seems unique.
36:59
Speaker 3: About you guys and super cool is that you can
37:01
Speaker 3: put out a studio album and then you sort of
37:05
Speaker 3: can remix all the songs live on stage, so it
37:09
Speaker 3: almost gives the songs a different like more than one life,
37:14
Speaker 3: and that seems like it's it's really it could be
37:15
Speaker 3: really fun for you guys to keep things kind of
37:18
Speaker 3: like fresh and keep evolving them.
37:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. It's so cool and it's always
37:23
Speaker 1: funy when people say things like best, when people use
37:25
Speaker 1: those kind of words, it's like, it so funny. It's
37:28
Speaker 1: like it's all it's all so subjective, you know what
37:31
Speaker 1: I mean, it's all such an illusion that but yeah,
37:35
Speaker 1: that's the beautiful thing is when you think of a song,
37:38
Speaker 1: a recording of a song, it's just like a seed.
37:42
Speaker 1: I mean, think about anything that grows. You know, you
37:44
Speaker 1: plan a seed and a tree grows, and it looks
37:47
Speaker 1: this way one day, but then it looks different the
37:49
Speaker 1: next day. It looks different ten years from now, and
37:51
Speaker 1: it looks and I feel like that's kind of how
37:52
Speaker 1: every song is, is that it looks different every day
37:56
Speaker 1: and depending on how you play it or depending on
37:59
Speaker 1: where it goes. Some songs really lend themselves to exploding
38:03
Speaker 1: and improvising and you know, and other songs don't you know,
38:06
Speaker 1: the songs are like all right, here we are, it's
38:08
Speaker 1: three minutes long, and this is it yeah, but even
38:10
Speaker 1: those songs, they still they'll be faster or slower, or
38:14
Speaker 1: they'll you'll be angry one day, you know it sounds different.
38:17
Speaker 1: You'll be really happy one day it sounds different. But yeah,
38:20
Speaker 1: it's so so interesting.
38:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking about that without in the Open
38:25
Speaker 3: the song, and just wondering how that was gonna develop live,
38:31
Speaker 3: And if when you're recording songs, do you think about
38:35
Speaker 3: how it will develop live or are you.
38:36
Speaker 4: Just concentrating on the studio version.
38:40
Speaker 1: We do talk about that a lot and dream about
38:42
Speaker 1: it and like, oh man, this is gonna be fun
38:44
Speaker 1: to do live. You know, we say that a lot,
38:45
Speaker 1: but uh, you also have to kind of let go
38:48
Speaker 1: and let it be what it wants to be. And
38:50
Speaker 1: some things like out in the Open's a good example
38:53
Speaker 1: of a song that changed a lot. I mean, that
38:54
Speaker 1: was just kind of a ukulele idea I had that
39:00
Speaker 1: everybody liked, but they didn't know what would happen with it.
39:03
Speaker 1: Everybody liked the riff a lot, and I had a melody.
39:07
Speaker 1: I had, like the vocal melody, but I didn't have
39:08
Speaker 1: any lyrics or anything. And Brendan really liked that riff
39:12
Speaker 1: a lot and really like he was like, Okay, let's
39:15
Speaker 1: just take this riff and let's think about it. Let's
39:17
Speaker 1: you know, the ukulele turns into electric guitar and the
39:20
Speaker 1: band comes in and it gets more exciting, and you know,
39:22
Speaker 1: it like expands, and that his excitement got me excited,
39:26
Speaker 1: so like I like started, you know, like working on
39:28
Speaker 1: it thinking about it that way, and I'm sure live
39:33
Speaker 1: it'll it'll grow even more. You know. It's like that's
39:36
Speaker 1: just such a such a cool thing, such a such
39:38
Speaker 1: a fun process. How it all unfolds?
39:42
Speaker 3: Did my morning jacket go through like a Hamburg Beatles
39:46
Speaker 3: moment where you all just played together live, like night
39:51
Speaker 3: after night our you know, like big chunks of time
39:54
Speaker 3: to really get good. Like, how did how did you
39:56
Speaker 3: guys get good initially?
39:59
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I
40:03
Speaker 1: think we just played so much. You know, I think
40:05
Speaker 1: when you play that much, I think any band would
40:08
Speaker 1: probably agree with that. That just the more you play,
40:12
Speaker 1: the more it all becomes like second nature to you,
40:14
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, You're just kind of locked
40:16
Speaker 1: into each other. So when you start playing, I mean,
40:18
Speaker 1: now when we play, we've been playing together in this
40:24
Speaker 1: version of mine where jacket for twenty years. Over twenty
40:27
Speaker 1: years now, you know, that's a lot of accumulated time,
40:31
Speaker 1: and not only time on stage, but just time together
40:33
Speaker 1: as people, you know, and you kind of know each
40:35
Speaker 1: other more and more and more and more and more.
40:38
Speaker 1: And you think of, yeah, like the Beatles in that
40:40
Speaker 1: those Hamburg days or whatever, all that time they played
40:43
Speaker 1: together and all those experiences really prepared them for when
40:47
Speaker 1: they were together in the studio and faced with the
40:50
Speaker 1: pressure of the world or whatever, they were ready to
40:53
Speaker 1: do it because they had spent the time and done
40:55
Speaker 1: the work.
40:56
Speaker 3: Do you consider your relationship with the band as the
41:00
Speaker 3: most important relationship in your life.
41:04
Speaker 1: No, I don't really look at anything that way, because
41:06
Speaker 1: it all flows and changes in every days different and
41:10
Speaker 1: so I try to look at whoever's in my life
41:13
Speaker 1: that day as the most important person in my life,
41:15
Speaker 1: you know, whoever I'm encountering in that moment, because it's
41:19
Speaker 1: really I think that's one thing we forget is everything
41:22
Speaker 1: else is gone, you know, like right now it's just
41:24
Speaker 1: you and me and there's nothing else happening right now.
41:27
Speaker 1: The band isn't here, my parents aren't here, you know,
41:29
Speaker 1: nobody's here right now, And I try to keep thinking
41:33
Speaker 1: about that, because when you're on tour, you really have
41:36
Speaker 1: to think about that in this interesting way because if
41:39
Speaker 1: I'm trapped somewhere, it doesn't matter where I want to be.
41:44
Speaker 1: I'm right there, you know, and it's like and I
41:46
Speaker 1: can spend time wishing I was somewhere else, or I
41:49
Speaker 1: can face reality and try and enjoy it, you know.
41:53
Speaker 1: And I love how Michael Singer talks about He's wrote
41:58
Speaker 1: The Untethered Soul and has a podcast that I really enjoy,
42:02
Speaker 1: and he talks about reality and he's like, you want
42:04
Speaker 1: to hear the definition of reality. Reality is that which
42:07
Speaker 1: has already happened. It's like and you can't if you
42:10
Speaker 1: wish you could change it. You know, you might not
42:12
Speaker 1: like it, but it is, you know. That was another
42:14
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I want to name the record
42:16
Speaker 1: is it is like it is, you know, it's like
42:19
Speaker 1: and I think that's something we all need to think
42:22
Speaker 1: about if we want to change the world. If we're
42:25
Speaker 1: not happy about the way the world is, it's okay
42:29
Speaker 1: to feel upset about it. It's okay to wish it
42:32
Speaker 1: was different and one way. But if you face it
42:36
Speaker 1: directly as it is and say this is reality right now?
42:40
Speaker 1: What am I going to do about it? How am
42:41
Speaker 1: I going to need it? You know? How am I
42:43
Speaker 1: going to show up for myself and for reality as
42:48
Speaker 1: it is? And I think that's like some kind of
42:51
Speaker 1: doorway to a better future. It's almost like you can't
42:56
Speaker 1: think about the future. You've got to like really think
43:00
Speaker 1: about what can I do in this present moment, starting close,
43:04
Speaker 1: you know, starting with myself and the people around me,
43:07
Speaker 1: and how can I make that better? And I just
43:10
Speaker 1: keep trying to think about that. That's really been helping me.
43:15
Speaker 2: One last break and we're back with Lea Rose and
43:17
Speaker 2: Jim James.
43:22
Speaker 4: What have you been listening to lately?
43:25
Speaker 1: I feel like whenever anybody asks me that, my mind
43:27
Speaker 1: goes blank, goes completely blank. I feel like I have
43:33
Speaker 1: my regular diet.
43:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's your diet?
43:37
Speaker 1: My steady diet is My Sweet Lord by George Harrison.
43:40
Speaker 1: I feel like I listened to that song kind of
43:42
Speaker 1: on repeat all the time, like over and over and
43:44
Speaker 1: over and over again. There's this band Magdalena Bay. Have
43:47
Speaker 1: you heard them. They've got this song Image that I
43:51
Speaker 1: really like. Oh. There's an artist Lacey Guthrie. They've got
43:55
Speaker 1: this song called here she comes that. I really like.
43:59
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like Kendrick Lamar is always blowing
44:03
Speaker 1: my mind. I mean, I feel like we're kind of
44:04
Speaker 1: like living in his era in a lot of ways.
44:08
Speaker 1: I feel like there's this this thing that he's doing
44:10
Speaker 1: that's speaking to so many people. I really like that
44:12
Speaker 1: dough Chi record, Like, I feel like the vibe that
44:16
Speaker 1: that's coming from that is really powerful. Yeah. God, I
44:20
Speaker 1: mean there's just like that's the thing. It's like the
44:21
Speaker 1: problem and the benefit of the digital age or whatever.
44:26
Speaker 1: There's there's so much great, so much great music, but
44:29
Speaker 1: it's almost like this title wave. Yes, yeah, you're trying
44:32
Speaker 1: trying to hold on to any of it, you know,
44:34
Speaker 1: it's all there's just like so much for sure.
44:38
Speaker 3: And I saw that you were in the the Bob
44:41
Speaker 3: Dylan the the.
44:43
Speaker 1: Movie were not I'm not there.
44:44
Speaker 4: I'm not there. Yeah, what was that experience?
44:47
Speaker 1: Like it was wild? It was so beautiful. I think
44:51
Speaker 1: originally they said Hank Williams the Third was supposed to
44:54
Speaker 1: do that part or whatever. Yeah, for some reason he
44:57
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. And Randall Poster, who's one of the
45:01
Speaker 1: greatest music supervisors of all time, who's done like all
45:04
Speaker 1: the Wes Anderson films and so many amazing films. He
45:07
Speaker 1: was the music supervisor and uh I was living in
45:10
Speaker 1: New York at the time, and he called me up
45:13
Speaker 1: and he's like, Hey, do you want to sing this
45:16
Speaker 1: this Bob Dylan song going to Alcapolca. I was like,
45:19
Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite Dylan songs. I love the
45:22
Speaker 1: Basement tapes and I love that that era of Dylan.
45:26
Speaker 1: So we popped over to this studio and Colexico had
45:30
Speaker 1: already recorded the music and I sang the track and
45:34
Speaker 1: it all worked out, and then we flew out to
45:37
Speaker 1: Montreal to film the scene. I was like painting. I
45:44
Speaker 1: had to paint my face to kind of be like
45:45
Speaker 1: the Rolling Thunder era Dylan, but I wasn't. I wasn't
45:49
Speaker 1: like supposed to be him or anything. I'm just supposed
45:52
Speaker 1: to be this band leader that looks like him or
45:55
Speaker 1: reminds you of him from that era or whatever. And
45:57
Speaker 1: it was so funny because I took the white face paint.
46:00
Speaker 1: The makeup lady came and gave me the face paint,
46:03
Speaker 1: and they're like, and I knew that era of Dylan
46:05
Speaker 1: or whatever. She's like, so I'll let you put the
46:08
Speaker 1: paint on or whatever, you know, and I like was
46:10
Speaker 1: so nervous and so terrified. I wanted to do a
46:13
Speaker 1: really great job to put all this light paint all
46:16
Speaker 1: over my face, like so much. There's like, you know,
46:18
Speaker 1: probably like two inches of paint sticking on my face.
46:20
Speaker 1: And she comes back in and she's like, geez man,
46:22
Speaker 1: She's like, you don't have to do that much. She's like,
46:24
Speaker 1: let's get because if he would have done it, he
46:26
Speaker 1: probably just would have you know, put it on pretty
46:28
Speaker 1: quick or whatever. And I was it was just such
46:30
Speaker 1: a funny moment of like that thing, you know, that
46:32
Speaker 1: over perfectionist thing kind of coming in and biting you
46:37
Speaker 1: in the ass, right, so funny. So like today she
46:40
Speaker 1: helped me, like, you know, we took some of it
46:41
Speaker 1: off or whatever, and it was amazing. It was just
46:43
Speaker 1: such a cool part to be a part of it.
46:45
Speaker 4: That's so cool. What a cool experience, especially for someone
46:48
Speaker 4: who loves stealing.
46:49
Speaker 1: Oh man, it was unbelievable.
46:51
Speaker 4: Have you ever met him?
46:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean not really met him because he but
46:55
Speaker 1: we I got to sing with him a couple of
46:58
Speaker 1: times when we went on tour with him on the
47:01
Speaker 1: Americana Brama tour we did when it was I don't know,
47:04
Speaker 1: ten years ago or something, and that was really fascinating
47:07
Speaker 1: because it was us and Will Coo and Dylan and
47:12
Speaker 1: they had sold us on the idea of the tour
47:15
Speaker 1: that he wanted to play with everybody a lot. They're like,
47:17
Speaker 1: Dylan really wants to play with all the bands, and
47:20
Speaker 1: like we pictured ourselves sitting around the campfire at midnight,
47:23
Speaker 1: like let's learn all of desire or whatever, you know,
47:25
Speaker 1: all these like and of course we get to the tour.
47:28
Speaker 1: We don't see him, we don't hear from him, we
47:30
Speaker 1: don't meet him. You know, you you never even see
47:32
Speaker 1: him in catering or anything.
47:33
Speaker 3: You know.
47:34
Speaker 1: His bus pulls up, he gets off the bus, plays
47:36
Speaker 1: this show, gets on the bus leaves. You know. That's
47:39
Speaker 1: and but then one night his bass player comes up
47:42
Speaker 1: to me and he's like, he's like, I think Bob
47:43
Speaker 1: wants you. Was sitting to night and he gives me
47:45
Speaker 1: a CD of this Reverend Gary Davis song that I
47:50
Speaker 1: I didn't know, and uh, Jeff from Wilco and I
47:54
Speaker 1: were like, go in the backstage and we've got our
47:56
Speaker 1: guitars and we're like, you know, we've got like whatever.
47:59
Speaker 1: A couple hours until we're supposed to sit him, sit
48:02
Speaker 1: him with him, and you know, yeah, we're both like
48:04
Speaker 1: terrified and we're trying to learn the song. And in
48:07
Speaker 1: the bass player Tony he's like, he's like, let's do
48:09
Speaker 1: this in the key of D and I don't really
48:11
Speaker 1: know keys or anything. So we're like, okay, if we'd
48:13
Speaker 1: like learn it, and I swear like five minutes before
48:16
Speaker 1: we're supposed to go on, the guitar tech comes back
48:19
Speaker 1: and he's like, I think Dylan wants to do it
48:21
Speaker 1: and be flat. So we're like, okay, do you to
48:25
Speaker 1: be flat? What is that? You know, we're like trying
48:26
Speaker 1: to figure out and I don't know the song well
48:29
Speaker 1: at all or whatever, you know, and then we's like
48:30
Speaker 1: go out, you know. I mean he was really nice
48:33
Speaker 1: on stage, you know, he welcomed us on stage or whatever,
48:35
Speaker 1: and we you know, stumbled our way through the song,
48:38
Speaker 1: and uh, we did. We did a couple of Revengdary
48:41
Speaker 1: Davis songs, and then we did the Weight by the
48:44
Speaker 1: band like four or five times, and every night he
48:47
Speaker 1: would change the key of that, so it was like
48:49
Speaker 1: constantly going up and down. You know. It's like it
48:52
Speaker 1: was so wild. But it was so crazy because you
48:55
Speaker 1: never got to like spend any time with him or anything,
48:58
Speaker 1: like we didn't have a conversation or anything. But when
49:01
Speaker 1: we were playing with him on stage, one of the
49:05
Speaker 1: most unbelievable things I've ever seen, like like looking over
49:08
Speaker 1: it him and he is gone. I mean he's completely lost,
49:16
Speaker 1: Like his eyes were somewhere, you know, like tapped into
49:21
Speaker 1: something that really was. I think that like we're all
49:26
Speaker 1: part of this you know, for lack of a better word,
49:29
Speaker 1: cosmic ocean or consciousness or whatever that I really believe
49:33
Speaker 1: we're all tied into and we're all just little nodes
49:37
Speaker 1: off the same a wall of electricity, or we're little
49:40
Speaker 1: waves off the same ocean or whatever. And occasionally a
49:43
Speaker 1: person comes along that somehow their energy speaks to everybody,
49:53
Speaker 1: you know, in this different way, you know, like Dylan does,
49:56
Speaker 1: you know, and there's just this thing like being two
49:59
Speaker 1: feet away from him, you know, looking at him, when
50:01
Speaker 1: I was like I saw that wow thing or whatever.
50:05
Speaker 1: I guess that must be his connection to the thing,
50:07
Speaker 1: you know, because it was like really was no one
50:11
Speaker 1: was there in his body. You know, It's like he
50:15
Speaker 1: was in that place that I think we all know
50:20
Speaker 1: that place musicians know it is the place when they're
50:24
Speaker 1: lost in great music, you know, and they're they're lost
50:27
Speaker 1: in the moment. And I think the place most of
50:29
Speaker 1: it us know at best is like in love, you know,
50:32
Speaker 1: making love or that at that part of life where you're, yeah,
50:37
Speaker 1: you are gone, you know, you've you've forgotten all about
50:40
Speaker 1: this human experience and you are lost in the energy
50:43
Speaker 1: of love and God. And uh, that was one of
50:46
Speaker 1: the coolest things I've ever gotten to see is stand
50:49
Speaker 1: so close to uh, a hero like that and see
50:53
Speaker 1: that force was just it was unbelievable.
50:58
Speaker 4: That's incredible.
51:00
Speaker 1: Yeah.
51:00
Speaker 4: Have you played with anybody else and had that experience?
51:05
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, We've been so lucky. It's so
51:07
Speaker 1: fortunate to like share the stage with so many unbelievable artists.
51:14
Speaker 1: You know, it's just like it it is, uh, I
51:17
Speaker 1: just yeah, or even seeing people like I got to
51:20
Speaker 1: see Edda James before she passed away, you know, and
51:25
Speaker 1: the energy you know, coming off of her, you know,
51:28
Speaker 1: just like really you felt like the place was going
51:32
Speaker 1: to be ripped apart. You know, it's like the the
51:34
Speaker 1: walls are gonna be ripped off the place, you know,
51:37
Speaker 1: the energy is so insanely for us. Or seeing Jonny
51:42
Speaker 1: Mitchell at the Hollywood Bowl last year, you know, just
51:46
Speaker 1: in the audience, you know, like not I'm like and
51:49
Speaker 1: I've always really loved and respected Jonny Mitchell, but it's
51:52
Speaker 1: never fully been my thing. It's never fully spoken to
51:55
Speaker 1: me fully deeply, because a lot of it, honestly just
51:58
Speaker 1: feels kind of over my head. It's very complex and
52:01
Speaker 1: very layered, and a lot of times I really so
52:04
Speaker 1: much respect and so much beauty. But seeing her, the
52:11
Speaker 1: unbelievable energy coming out of her, of like she's seen
52:16
Speaker 1: it all and lived to tell the tale now and
52:19
Speaker 1: you're seeing her in person all almost like she's she's
52:25
Speaker 1: all of the energy of everything that's ever happened in
52:28
Speaker 1: the history of mankind or whatever is like coming out
52:31
Speaker 1: of her as she sits on her throne. And it's
52:34
Speaker 1: like I kept getting this vision of her as like
52:38
Speaker 1: the power of like Marlon Brando and the Godfather or wherever,
52:41
Speaker 1: you know. But it's like, but like ten thousand Marlon Brandos,
52:44
Speaker 1: you know, just like the power coming off her just
52:47
Speaker 1: like I mean, like I couldn't believe it, you know,
52:50
Speaker 1: It's just like that's one really inspiring thing too that
52:52
Speaker 1: we talk about a lot as a band is like
52:55
Speaker 1: you see these people that really show you the age
53:01
Speaker 1: doesn't matter the way we think it does, and age
53:04
Speaker 1: is relative, you know, and nobody can help the help
53:07
Speaker 1: complications they may have, or if you have bad health
53:09
Speaker 1: or something happens to you, you know, obviously nobody can change
53:12
Speaker 1: or help that. But beyond that, seeing the Rolling Stones,
53:17
Speaker 1: I've seen them four or five times in the last
53:19
Speaker 1: few years, just unbelievable, you know, like they're not over
53:24
Speaker 1: the hill, old guys. You know, they're the greatest rock
53:28
Speaker 1: and roll band of all time and they're still alive. Yeah,
53:32
Speaker 1: and they're still blowing your mind, you know. Or you
53:34
Speaker 1: see Neil Young saying that still blowing your mind, you know,
53:38
Speaker 1: like still and that kind of stuff is just so inspiring.
53:43
Speaker 1: I've talked with the Specimen in the day. It's like
53:46
Speaker 1: we're all the first to see rock and roll grow old.
53:50
Speaker 1: Like this is all so new, Yeah, you know, it's
53:54
Speaker 1: all so new, and there's so many people like Jimmy
53:58
Speaker 1: Hendricks or whatever who died, or John Lennon who died
54:00
Speaker 1: or whatever. But then there's still so many people like
54:02
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney or like I still have gotten to hear
54:06
Speaker 1: Keith Richards ripped my mind in half with Gode. You
54:10
Speaker 1: know when he hits some big you know, it's just like.
54:15
Speaker 3: Just so lucky, so lucky to witness that unbelievably lucky.
54:20
Speaker 4: Yeah. How are you feeling about touring these days?
54:25
Speaker 1: It's so funny And we were talking about this the
54:27
Speaker 1: other day because we have never felt better about playing
54:31
Speaker 1: shows like the band as a unit, as like a
54:35
Speaker 1: like everything feels so beautiful and so unbelievable, and we've
54:39
Speaker 1: never felt better about like the music and the brotherhood
54:42
Speaker 1: and the harmony and the experience with everybody coming to
54:47
Speaker 1: the shows and the circle that's created by the audience
54:51
Speaker 1: and us, and the whole thing is it has never
54:53
Speaker 1: been more beautiful. And simultaneously, I feel like the more
54:57
Speaker 1: sober I've gotten in peaceful I've gotten, the harder the
54:59
Speaker 1: travels become. So it's been like this this crazy, uh
55:04
Speaker 1: back and forth thing of like oh my god, like
55:07
Speaker 1: I cannot sleep on the bus anymore, you know things
55:09
Speaker 1: like that where you're.
55:09
Speaker 4: Like, is it because you have back back stuff?
55:12
Speaker 2: Right?
55:13
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean a litany of that kind of stuff.
55:16
Speaker 1: It's just it's just interesting that. Uh. I think everybody
55:20
Speaker 1: recognizes that kind of thing in the in their own
55:22
Speaker 1: life where it's like nothing is ever one thing, you know,
55:27
Speaker 1: it's like always both had you know. I love this
55:31
Speaker 1: new I feel like this phrase. I don't know when
55:33
Speaker 1: it was born, but I feel like it's really come
55:35
Speaker 1: to more and more light in the past five years
55:38
Speaker 1: five years or so, this both hand things. And I
55:41
Speaker 1: think about that and it's like touring is this huge
55:43
Speaker 1: both and you know, it's like I've never loved playing
55:46
Speaker 1: shows more and I've never not enjoyed traveling more, you know.
55:49
Speaker 1: All the same time, it's like the travel is just
55:51
Speaker 1: so difficult for me. But it's like, but it's part
55:55
Speaker 1: of the what I mean, what can you do until
55:57
Speaker 1: they get the teleporter and then it we gotta do it.
56:01
Speaker 3: We got to do How do you get yourself in
56:04
Speaker 3: the mood for a show if you can't do like
56:06
Speaker 3: a couple of shots or whatever, it is, like, how
56:08
Speaker 3: do you get into them the mind frame?
56:10
Speaker 1: Well, I've never drank before shows. I always drank after shows,
56:15
Speaker 1: but I've never drank before shows because I'm really like,
56:18
Speaker 1: my dad really gave me a really good work ethic.
56:21
Speaker 1: I feel like in a really like sense of you know,
56:23
Speaker 1: like gott gotta show up for work and you gotta
56:25
Speaker 1: be ready to work, you know. But well, I've got
56:29
Speaker 1: a whole list of things I do. I mean, I've
56:31
Speaker 1: really got like a whole vocal warm up thing I do,
56:33
Speaker 1: and a whole meditation thing, and just like a quiet
56:39
Speaker 1: thing and an exercise thing and a music thing. And
56:41
Speaker 1: you know, it's like this series of like simultaneously getting
56:45
Speaker 1: relaxed and getting excited, you know, and like getting your
56:48
Speaker 1: voice warmed up so much energy and then we have
56:52
Speaker 1: a we always do a huddle, you know, and get
56:55
Speaker 1: our band energy going. And and I I asked Alice
57:00
Speaker 1: Coltrane a long time ago if we could use a
57:04
Speaker 1: piece of her music to as our walk on music,
57:07
Speaker 1: to kind of bless the stage. So there's this really
57:10
Speaker 1: cool piece I cut together of a couple of her
57:13
Speaker 1: instrumental portions that I feel like, is this really cool
57:16
Speaker 1: like thing that kind of comes out and like clears
57:19
Speaker 1: the energy of the stage before we come on. So yeah,
57:22
Speaker 1: just things like that. I try to pray. I try
57:25
Speaker 1: to really pray to the energy of the day and
57:29
Speaker 1: whatever forces might be there that just then it is
57:34
Speaker 1: what it is, and I can accept that, you know that.
57:37
Speaker 1: I hope it's a great experience for the audience, and
57:39
Speaker 1: I hope that it's a great experience for us, And
57:41
Speaker 1: I hope that I imagine the whole venue surrounded in like
57:46
Speaker 1: a golden light, and like try to imagine all of
57:49
Speaker 1: us surrounded in like some kind of protective, healing light.
57:53
Speaker 1: But then simultaneously, like, please help me accept whatever doesn't
57:59
Speaker 1: go right, Yeah, because that's going to happen too, you know,
58:02
Speaker 1: like because that's so so much out of your control
58:04
Speaker 1: when you step on the stage, you know, it's like
58:06
Speaker 1: and that's part of it, I think, is trying to
58:08
Speaker 1: accept that.
58:10
Speaker 3: Well, Jim, thank you so much for talking, Thanks for
58:12
Speaker 3: being so open. Thanks, Yeah, congrats on the new album.
58:16
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, thanks for having me.
58:20
Speaker 2: In episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist
58:23
Speaker 2: of our favorite mind Morning Jacket and Jim James tracks
58:26
Speaker 2: and again. To see the video version of this episode,
58:28
Speaker 2: visit YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, and be
58:32
Speaker 2: sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod.
58:35
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken
58:38
Speaker 2: Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing
58:42
Speaker 2: help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is
58:45
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58:49
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Speaker 2: back any beats.
59:12
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.