Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Wired To Hunt Podcast #209: Becoming A Mindful Hunter with Tovar Cerulli

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Wired To Hunt Podcast #209: Becoming A Mindful Hunter with Tovar Cerulli · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: your host Mark Kenyon in this episode number two oh nine,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: and today in the show, we're joined by writer and
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: author Tovar Serule to discuss his journey from vegan to hunter,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the value of thinking deeply about hunting, the ethics of hunting,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: how we talk about hunting, and much much more. All right, guys,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: by sit Ka Gear. And today we're joined by Tovar Serule.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: And Tovar is a vegan turned hunter. He's a writer.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: He's the author of a book titled The Mindful Carnivore.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: And this book, it's a book that I read a
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: few years back, and I just really enjoyed it. It's
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: been something I've I've turned back to and you know,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: over the past couple of years and found little interesting
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: quotes and reread certain sections. It's really well done. And
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: this book chronicles Tovar's personal journey from being someone who
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: had a negative view of hunters and who had a
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: negative view of eating meat to now someone who himself
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: is a hunter and who is a meat eater. Um.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of an interesting transformation on its own.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: But he goes through this whole story and speaks to
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of other things I find really important, like
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the ethics of hunting, the importance of thinking about the
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: why and the how of hunting. Um. He talks about
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: the way we represent ourselves as hunters, how we can
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: introduce new people to hunting, and lots and lots more
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. So it is, Ah, it's a very
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: interesting book. Tovar is a very interesting guy. In the
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: conversation we had, maybe I'm biased, but I think it
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: was very interesting too. So that is going to be
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: the main event today. UM. I'm looking forward to that.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: But before we get into it, we do need to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: take our traditional fifteen minutes or so for our pregame
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: show with my red bearded, nine fingered pale Dan Johnson. Um.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: And before we start recording, Dan, you said you had
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: a lot on your mind. What's going on, dude, I
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: just like my brain has been firing on all cylinders lately,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and just a lot about I don't know a lot
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: about everything, but but I mean like most of it
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: has revolved around starting to lay out my like my
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: western hunting game plan. And I don't mean short term
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: like what I'm doing this year, but I mean long
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: term for you know, trying to set something up every
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: year or multiple times every year to head west to
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: hunt new species. So I like your ambitions. Man. Yeah,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I've I've kind of got this. I don't want to
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: say a midlife crisis is going on, but I have
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: this crisis, right, But I have this realization where you know,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: I got if I have this bucket list I have
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: written on my desk and permanent marker, right, so it's there?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Is it literally on the desk, like if you took
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: a marker and wrote it on the desk? Yep? Yep, absolutely,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And it's my bucket list and I it's a list
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: of animals that I want to harvest. Is this your
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: desk at work? No? No, no, no, no, no no no,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: this is my that'd be cool. That would be so funny.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Your boss comes up, why why have you scrawled elk, moose,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: and caribou all across all across the office desk here? Damn?
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: My response would be why haven't you? Sorry? Continued No,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: but so like, I want to put this game plan together, right,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: I want to look into what I need to do
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: as far as preference points, as far as you know,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: getting set up rules, regulations, all these things. And I
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: know that's kind of a long term, you know, that's
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: something that's not done in one night of scouting on
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Google Maps, you know what I mean. But I have
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: been looking at like it is so addicting. I went
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: to onyx Maps and I signed up for their free
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: trial period and I've already put in hours looking at
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: different states throughout the West, at you know, BLM Land
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: and National Forest and state land and and all these things,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: just kind of looking what sections, you know, starting to
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: look at not not right now, but look at like
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: trophy records, you know, as far as big deer or
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: big elk are taken, but more along the lines of
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: numbers and you know, opportunities, so to speak, and just
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: get something concrete to where I can say, Okay, this year,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I'm doing this, Next year, I'm you in this, and
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: then every year add something towards the end of that. Yeah. No,
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  Speaker 1: I think that's sometimes half the fun too, is just
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the planning, the dreaming, the thinking about it. You know,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: imagining what this might be like, all that research and scouting.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: You know that that helps get you through the off
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: season and the long nights with the crying baby and
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. You know. So I'm right
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: there with your dude and I the the Onyx maps
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: if you're going out west and you need to understand
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: those public private borders and all that stuff. It is.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: It is a super helpful tool for that kind of thing. UM.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: And then I think we've talked about before, but I
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: combined that, like when I'm doing my Western scouting, I
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: combined that and then use the information on go hunt
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: dot com um, which I think you're familiar with as well. UM,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: And they've got a whole bunch of like unit specific
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: data for all sorts of states, and they've got kind
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: of the outline all of the the things you need
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: to understand within each state for how to apply for tags,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: what the point systems are. Just because is you know,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: we've come to find out, um, being Midwesterners have begun
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: hunting out westmore it's a lot more complicated than just
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: going and picking up a tag at Walmart. UM. In
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: a lot of these states, at least, so UM, yeah,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I'm right there with you. I'm not in a position
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: where I feel like I can map it out years
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: ahead of time. There's so much flux right now for me.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: But I am getting excited for this year, and already
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: this year, I feel like it's so much up in
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: the air, even a lot too, um because at one
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: point I thought I was gonna do a Montana elk hunt,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: and now that's shifting to an Idaho elk hunt. Um,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I think maybe, So that stuff's all up in the air,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: and but it's exciting so um as far as yeah,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: and I'm talking, you know, things I can do right
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: now are look at preference points. Right, I'm too late
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: for most draws, but for example, Wyoming, right, they have
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: a um, they have a preference point system that starts
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: up in July, and I'll buy my you know, I'll
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: buy my elk and mule deer and antelope preference points.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: So that way, when it comes time to you know,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: start looking for a zone, I have this basically ticket
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: that I'm waiting in line is basically what it is,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: you know, So getting ready to cash those in at
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, way better to be having those, you know,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: doing that for years and years, and then finally when
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: you're ready to hunt, you've got the opportunity, versus saying, oh,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: this year, I really I've got the time I want
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: to hunt Wyoming, but then you don't have the points
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: to hunt anywhere half decent. So absolutely, yeah, man, that's exciting. Um,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: I'm actually heading to Idaho. Uh speaking of going out west,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I'm heading to Idaho in two days. What are you
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: doing out there? The back Country Hunters and Anglers Rendezvous
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: is happening this weekend in Boise, So a whole bunch
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: of hunters and anglers getting together. There's gonna be um,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different seminars, there's gonna be um. Yeah,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like this big I think it's called Beers,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: Bands and public lands, just kind of like a big
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: get together, throw down party. One night. There's gonna be
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: a storytelling night, um, Steve Ranella, Remy Warren, a bunch
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: of other folks like that. Von Schnard, the founder of Patagonia,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: is gonna be speaking there. So a bunch of interesting
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: people will be speaking at that event. Um, bunch cool stuff.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm on the I'm on the board for our
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Michigan chapter. Still gonna do some chapter training stuff and
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: it should be a cool deal. So looking forward to that. Awesome.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: My buddy Dan Borne is I think he's in the
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Minnesota chapter and he's heading out there to uh um
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: cover that as well. So it should be uh, it
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: should be fun for you guys. Yeah, I think there's
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: gonna be a quite a contingent of folks from all
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: over the country. So I'm looking forward to it. And
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: I was. I was originally gonna try to tack on
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: a turkey hunt to the end of it. I thought, Okay,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: I'll be out there for for two days at the event,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: and I'll stay for another two days to turkey hunt
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: out to night Hoe because their opening days like that
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: next day, I think. Um. But then, man, just after
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: being gone for like eight or nine days or whatever
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  Speaker 1: it was for the shed hunting trip, I just kind
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: of was thinking, you know what, I'm already gonna be
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: gone almost four days as it is, making that until
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: a seven day trip would be kind of tough on
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: the tough on the wife and baby. So no turkey
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: hunting from me, right, as you say, Gotta gotta put
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: family first, right, that's right. You gotta put the family
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: first so that you can put him last in November.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: That was mean, that was unfair, dude. So today, just
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: just before we started recording this, um Kylie had been
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: feeding him and I was sitting next to We're talking
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: about something, and she was going to go off to
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: do something, so she handed him to me to you know,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: to chill while she went to go do whatever she
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: was gonna do. And literally she hands him. In the
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: moment my hands touched him, he projectile vomits all over me,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: like all over my chat best and pants, and I
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: mean like completely had to change everything. Um It's like
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: a half gallon of stuff all over. So dad life
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: is in full force these days, dude. Yeah, we'll congrats.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: It always makes me feel better about myself when I
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: hear other dad's getting barfed on. Yeah. Yeah, men, it's
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: a whole new world these days. I I sit in
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: my office and read books about you know, told our
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: surule and whatnot, and then I go into the living
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: room and I'm puked on and cleaning up poop and
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: singing songs and and doing all sorts of weird new things. Uh.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Speaking of kids, though, you texted me a while back
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: and told me that I had to ask you about
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: your daughter's first shed find. Dude, it was crazy what happened.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: So we were we were out at the state park
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: in Iowa, and they have like captive they have Captive
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Buffalo and Captive elk on it just you know, so
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: people can drive up to the fence and go and
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: look right high. It's it's like a high fence type thing.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And so we're driving around. I'm with my dad. So
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: you hunt hunt there? Then, no, you don't. I think
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: you can know. Oh yeah, I'm talking for for white tails.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Although I think you can hunt there. But it's not
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: a high fence thing for no, not for white tails. Right,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: it's just a small portion of this. I'm totally getting
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: you sidetrack though. That's all right, that's all right, that's
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: what we do. That is okay. So you're at the
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: state park. Ye, my kids, my kids get out to go.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: My my youngest is sleeping in the car seat. My
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: dad takes my daughter and my son over to this
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: like grassy hilltop where they have a swing set, and
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: I'm I walk away from the vehicle and I am
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: looking at these cabins that potentially we could rent during
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: the summertime. So all of a sudden I turned around.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: I hear my daughter just screaming bloody murder, and I'm
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: just like, what what is happening? And she's running towards me,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: like she's running towards me at full force, and my
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: my son is running behind her, and my dad is
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: sitting there kind of smiling behind it all. He's not
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: running and Dad, Dad, Dad, And I'm like, what's going on?
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: What's going on? Because I thought she fell off the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: swing set? And she lifts up her hand and she
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: finds this two point dear side and she she's running
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: up to me. It's like and there was there was
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: dear poop everywhere, so it's like, as you know, like
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: it was kind of similar to what we've where we're
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: finding all the sheds at when we went shed hunting
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: with Ben, right, but it was a lot shorter. So
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: the deer as the grass started getting a little greener,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: they were out there eating the fresh green grass that
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: was coming up near this swing set. And this small
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: buck must have shed his antlers right there, because there
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: was deer poop everywhere, and my daughter saw it, recognized it,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: and ran up to me. It's like, Dad, I just
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: found a dearhatler. So I I started like geeking out right,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: I'm like, but where did you find it? Tell me
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: about it? And I started and so like my my
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: enthusiasm kind of trumped hers, and she didn't know what
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: to say. She's like, I don't know. I think I
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: was asking her like, what's the age class? You know,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: where's the where's the right right, where's the trail right?
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: And she's like, Dad, you know, and I just I
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: just lost it. It was so exciting. And when we
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: got at home, this is an internal battle for me.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: We got at home, She's like, Daddy, I want to
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: paint it. I'm like, oh no, you can't paint it.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Why dad, it's my shed. I'm just like, this is
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: your first shed you ever found by yourself. This is like,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: this is very important. And she's like, but Dad, and
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: she did that little girl thing and I'm like, Okay,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: you can paint it. And so she painted it, and
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: now we have it sitting up on this little picture
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: frame thing, and uh, it's pretty cool. I will remember that,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: even though it wasn't an official shed hunt, I will
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: remember that for a very long time. That's amazing. That
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: is so cool. Um what what? What color? Did she
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: paint it? Purple and pink? Perfect, your first purple and
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: pink shed, I would assume, at least in the house.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: It's the second one. I found a small one that
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I let her paint this year. But but she wanted
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: this one because it was special and uh um but yeah,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and my wife she wanted to do you know, that
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: big one she found at Ben's. She wanted to do
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: some kind of decorative thing with it. And I was like, sweetie,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: this is your biggest shed ever, so until you find
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: another shed bigger, you can't do anything with this one. Yeah,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: it's gonna it's gonna sit in my office and collect dust.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: So I could say, since this is your shed, I
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: will keep that in my office and dictate how it's treated.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: It's funny because you know, like I get, I got
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: way more excited for her to find that shed than
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: she does. And I even give her this little space
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: on our wall where all of her sheds go, and
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: uh and you know, and she's like, well, I want
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: to do something creative with them, Like no, you just
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: like I instantly take over. I instantly took them all over. Yeah, hey, man,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I I'm right there with it. I'm a little possessive
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: of my sheds too. When I was gone out west
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: on that trip, my wife sent me a picture and
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: she's like, how mad does this make you? And it
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: was like fifteen of my sheds that I found this year,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the fourteen sheds that I picked up before my big trip.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: She had taken all of them away from the place
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I had put them all out, and she put them
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: and she put him across the mantelpiece of the fireplace.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: And a lot of people would I think that's cool
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: that that my wife is willing to put sheds on
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: the mantle piece of our fireplace in the living room.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: But I was like so particular about where I wanted them.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know about this, right. She's always
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: trying to steal the sheds and like put them in
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: random nooks and crannies on shelves or in our bedroom
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: or the bathroom. And I kind of like the idea
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: of having all of them all in one place so
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I can like bask in the glory of the multitudes um.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: But I think, uh, I think that's probably changing soon,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: so nothing stays permanent forever. Unfortunately, especially with when like
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: this room that I'm in now probably won't be my
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: office forever. So I'm gonna have to find a new
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: little corner of the house where I'm gonna need to
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: put all my mounts and and deer sheds. But I
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: have one last question for you know, we're running along
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: on the intro, but I have a European mount, right okay,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: and I want to turn it into a regular shoulder mountain.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: What did what did you have to do with it?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: When you know someone found or you found Jawbreaker dead right, yes, right?
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: So what did you have to do to get a
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: shoulder mount out of a dead skull? Well, so what
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: happened was I found the whole you know, antlers and
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: skull and everything intact on him. So I took the
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: dead head back home with me after I got a
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: salvage tag from the DNR. And I had a friend,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: you know, Dustin, who had he killed the buck the
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: year before, but decided that it was too small to
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: a shoulder mountain. Sid I didn't want a shoulder mount it,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, he decided to keep the cape
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: just in case, you know, he changed his mind, And
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: so he had the taxidermist who is his brother in
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: law and a friend of mine. Um had his brother
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: in law keep the cape. So then I find job
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: breaker like four months later, and he reached out to
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: me and said, hey, you should shoulder mount that thing,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: and you should and you should use my cape. I'm
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: not I don't really need it, you should do it.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: So basically I just brought the dead head to the taxidermist.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: He had a cape, and you know, they just saw
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the skull cap with the antlers or whatever and put
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: that into the form. So I think that all you
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: need if you've got you know, you've got the skull
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: and antlers and tact already, bring the euro mountain and
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: then I do think I don't know if this is
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: everyone does this, but I've heard that a lot of
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: taxidermists have extra capes sitting around that people don't want
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and so they keep it just for
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: this reason. So you can probably buy a cape from
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: someone and then they'll, you know, he'll be able to
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: cut off the skull cap on top of your eural mountain,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: put that in the form and stitch up the cape,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: and you have a you have a shuldar mountain right.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And the reason I want to do it now is
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: because it fell off the wall and I don't know
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: what happened to it, but I came into the room
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: and it was on the ground and the nose portion
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: of it broke off. You know those thin bones that
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: can come off those all broke off, and uh so
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: now I it just it looks like I found it
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: dead and didn't shoot it, you know what I mean.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: So I want to get it shot. I think I
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: want to get shoulder mounted. That's another five bucks. Yeah,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: what buck was that? It's the buck I killed in
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. It was I call it the
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: two by four buck because it's a four point side
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: with just like two really big points coming off of it,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: like a main beam and then a g one and
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: that's it. Two. That's a cool, dear, that's a cooling.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I remember that one. I always remember that because that's
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: the first time I ever saw you. Was that was
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: the video when you shot that buck. And I will
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: always remember when you're like that buck came in and
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: made me go, oh, I'm sorry to shoot him, And
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: then I said, you know what, I think I like
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: that guy. We should do a podcast together. So it's
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: a huge tool, but I think I like it. And
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: here we are today and here we are so all right, well, um,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: i'll be interested to see what that looks like. That'll
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: be cool. And um, on that note, I suppose unless
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: you've got anything else, we should we should wrap this
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: one up. Oh man, I'll see I'll see you U.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: We'll see you tomorrow. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Oh yeah,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: because you're having me on your podcast. That's right. Well,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: be sure check out the nine Finger Chronicles whenever that
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: comes out, folks. All right, well, we're gonna stop here.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take a listen to our sitcast story of
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the day, and then we'll get to Barn and he'll
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: elevate the conversation from here. For this week's take a story,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: we're joined by Beaumartinic, who tells us about a spring
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: turkey hunt where everything went right. It was last spring
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania when the temperatures were a lot lower than normal.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: To sing turkey hunt, I left my house early in
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: the morning, well before light. I wanted to get a
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: quick hunting before work. And as I started crossing the valley,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I heard some gobbles coming across the other. This line
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I heard up went down through the crick bottom. It
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: was very windy and cold on thirty eight degrees and
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: quite a bit of rain was coming down at this time,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: so allowing to get in pretty close to the roost
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: of gold was. As soon as it got light enough
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: for the for them to come out of the roots,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I gave a few soft calls with my my Grandpa's
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: homemade call, and they flew down, came over the ridge
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: and the big tom gave me a good thirty five
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: yard shot and put him down, ran up to him,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: grabbed the whole of him and couldn't believe what I had.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: My my biggest turkey to date inch and the half
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: spurs and a ten and a half inch beard. And
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: it was one of the craziest and quickest hunts that
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: I was able to make it to work on time.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: On both hunt he was wearing sickst core lightweight bass layers.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to create a sick of story of
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: your own, or to learn more about Sitka's technical hunting apparel,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: visit sitka gear dot com. All Right with me now?
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Is Tobar severely welcome to the show. Tober glad to
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: be here. Hey, I I, as I just mentioned a
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: second ago, I been looking forward to this for a while, um,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: because you're a guy who I came across I don't know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: maybe four five years ago, UM, with your book and
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: then some of your different articles I've seen online and
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: your perspective and the way you approach and talk about
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: hunting and what and how we do this. Um, it's
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: it's refreshing and I think it's an important one. So
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that I can finally gets you on here
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: for for our listeners to get to meet you. So
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: so thanks for taking the time to do this till
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: bar my pleasure and for the people who aren't familiar
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: with you yet. I offered just a very brief intro
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: before you came on here, But can you give us
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the cliff notes on who you are what you do now? Sure? UM,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: So you know, my whole entry into this hunting world
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: was an unusual one. I grew up fishing, but never
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: really did me hunting as a kid. UM ended up
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: becoming a vegetarian when I was twenty, was pretty strict vegetarian,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: vegan for basically a decade UM, and then became a
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: hunter and mainly a deer hunter, um. And I've been
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: in in the hunting world literally, you know, hunting, and
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: also in lots of conversations and and research and writing
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: and all kinds of things about about hunting, um since then,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: which is now going on, you know, about almost fifteen years.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: So I am an author. I end up going back
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: to grad school and studying stuff related to hunting and
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: grad school, uh, and have been doing a lot of
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: speaking and consulting work relating to wildlife conservation, hunting relationships
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: between the hunting conservation world and the non hunting environmental
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: conservation world and all the crossovers and coalitions and alliances
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: that exist there and could exist there and have existed
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: there historically. And uh so, yeah, lots of that, lots
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff. Man. That's that's the kind
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: of thing that is right up my alley. Two. What
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: what specifically were you studying while you were in grad school?
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: What were you working on there? So I did my
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: um my master's thesis on what I called adult onset hunters,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: those of us who caught the bug late uh, and
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: I interviewed a bunch of folks who had, like me,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: you know, come to hunting as adults and just investigated,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: you know, what it was that motivated them, how they
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: thought about it. The discipline I was in as communication,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: so really paying attention to the language and how we
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: tell stories about things and how we make sense of
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: these things that we do in our life. UM, And
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: that was fascinating to listen to folks and and here
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: um their unique perspective, the commonalities among them, which in
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: some ways are very different from folks who grew up hunting,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: but in some ways are very similar, and we just
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: use different language to talk about it, but we have
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of similar experiences and often similar sorts of
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: values and feelings about what we're doing in in hunting.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: We just come at it from different sort of backgrounds culturally.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: So so what's what was your goal or with that
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: line of your thesis there and in the study that
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: you're doing and now the communication work you're doing looking
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: into these connections between non hunting conservationists and hunters and
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: how we talk about these things. And basically all these
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: topics that you just listed off are exactly what I'm
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: hoping we can spend this entire time talking about. UM.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: But what why does this intrigue you so? Much. Why
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: are you looking into this? Why is this important? Um?
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Other than you know, being fascinated by interesting stories and
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: interesting people. Uh. You know, I think that they're despite
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: our differences. I say, in the conservation world and the
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: environmental world broadly, despite our differences, there is so much
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: common ground. There are so many common values. And because
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: of you know, issues around hunting or particular types of hunting,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: or you know, historical conflicts over some particular piece of
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: legislation or any number of things locally, nationally, whatever scale
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: you want to think about. UM, we tend in those
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: worlds in particular to paint each other as the big problem,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: like the enemy. So you know, among amongst certain hunting
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: conservation circles, you know, a certain subset of that world,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: you know, the non hunters or anyone who the non
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: hunters an anti hunter there like you know, it's the
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: antis and the environmentalists that's the big problem. That's what
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: threatens hunting more than anything. And I don't buy that
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: for a second. And similarly on the sort of environmental side.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: And you'll get some people thinking that you know, hunters, um,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: and what they stand for is really that's really the
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: big problem. You know, that they're driving species extinct, you know,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: even here domestically, you know, in North America, which just
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: isn't the case, you know. Um and so there's a
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: lot of misconceptions and just stereotypes about environmentalists when that
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: tends to go along with stereotypes of liberals, and stereotypes
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: about hunters, which tend to go along with stereotypes of conservatives,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: and these gross, gross stereotypes that we spend so and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: granted we have differences, and granted there are differences, but
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: we spend so much time and so much energy focus
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: on the differences and on each other as enemies that
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: we miss this huge common ground in the middle, this
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: huge amount of common value if you just get rid
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: of some of those stereotypes and some of those assumptions,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: and you start to listen to folks and start to
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: learn their language a little bit like, ah, that's like me,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: that's kind of similar, you know. Um. So I spent
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of time you know, with people across that
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: whole spectrum and listening to folks and getting a sense
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: of where they're really coming from, what their values are,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: and what you know, what drives them to support you know,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: conservation or to be opposed to some initiative that some
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: other groups has put forth. And uh, you know, the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: more time I spend doing it, the more I'm convinced that,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: you know, we have a lot more in common and
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: could and have historically and still do when allied with
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: each other, when pulling together accomplished this incredible stuff, you know,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: as it's happened over the past century and more. Um,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: But in these political times, and I don't mean just
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the past year, but I mean you know
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: the past decade, where we tend to be more and
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: more polarized and you know, little echo chambers on social
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: media and so on. Um, I think that we're at
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: risk of losing some of that collaborative spirit. Yeah, yeah,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I agree. And like you said, if you look back
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: in history, there's there's so many examples of us doing
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: these things together. You look back to Teddy Roosevelt and
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: John Muir, or you look back at Elder Leopold and
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Bomb marshall um and so many other examples of that.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Where when the when the hunting and non hunting conservation
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: communities can come together to work towards those shared goals,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: we can achieve so so much more but it does
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: take that open line of communication, and it does take
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: that willingness to look past stereotypes and um, you know,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: and like you said, sometimes there are differences. We aren't
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: going to see everything i'd eye, but maybe six things
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I attend we do, and let's work on those things.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: And then maybe by way of working on those things together,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: we can start to better understand each other on the
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: things that we have differently, and because there might be
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: progress to we make there too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: you know, historically it's not like it was easy necessarily
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: seventy five years ago or fifty years ago, but there
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: was I think in quite a few cases a lot
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: more common ground. I mean, there was you know, they
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: were editorials being written in you know, field and Stream
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: in the mid twentieth century that you just never see today.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: You know. They were just so explicitly pro environment, you know,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: and the support that like the Wilderness Act of sixty
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: four had was so broad politically, despite you know, regardless
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: of whatever you think about some of the ways that
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: it's been implemented and some of the rules related to it,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: you know, there has been a lot of of of
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: common ground, and I think it's important to continue to
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: to find that. Yeah, yeah, I want to. I want
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: to dive into that a little more and examine how
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: we can do that maybe. But before that, I think
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I probably need to rewind the tape a little bit too,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: better get our foundation here in your story and how
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: you got to this point, because you mentioned the fact
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: that you were a vegetarian for a long time back, um,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: some number of years ago, and then you made this
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: transition to now becoming a hunter, and not only a hunter,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: but a hunter who's who's you know, prolifically talking about
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: it and sharing your story with people. UM. And so
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: you tell that story in pretty fascinating detail in your book,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: The Mindful Carnivore. It's a it's a book I've really enjoyed, UM,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: I highly recommended to people. UM. And I want to
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: hear a little bit of your thoughts on what you're
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: what you're doing with that book and what you're trying
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: to achieve in that journey. But I want to I
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: want to read the quote, UM, that you let off
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: the book with. There's a quote here from a Mary Midgeley,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: and it says that the symbolism of meat eating is
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: never neutral to himself the meat eater seems to be
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: eating life. To the vegetarian, he seems to be eating death.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: There's a kind of just ault shift between the two positions,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: which make it hard to change and hard to raise
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: questions on the matter at all without becoming embattled. And
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I think this kind of this quote very neatly kind
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: of ties up some of the things we've already been
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: talking about, and it does do a nice job of
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: kicking off the theme of your story in that book. Um,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: can you just tell us a little bit more about
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: that journey in detail? I mean, how did you go
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: from this point to be it sounds like from what
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: I remember reading quite more really opposed to the idea
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: of killing an animal um and hunting to now where
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: you are. Now, can you fill us in a little
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: more on what that experience is like, what triggered these
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: changes in your mindset and led you to this point? Sure? Yeah, So,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I mean I became a vegetarian and then a vegan
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: very strict, you know, not having dare your eggs or
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: anything um, largely out of concern for animal welfare, you know,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: compassion for other living beings and not wanting to cause
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: unnecessary suffering. And so on. Um. And that was when
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I was about twenty, and other reasons piled up. I mean,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: you get, this happens with any of us. I think
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: you get convinced of a certain lifestyle or you know,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: a certain choice, and then you find lots of other
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: reasons that justify it. So whether they're you know, health
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: rationales or environ mental ecological rationales, all kinds of other
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: sort of things come along that you can latch onto
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and use, uh to support that choice, that position. And
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: so I stuck with that for those reasons, you know, uh,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: for for most of a decade. And then towards you know,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the end of that period of time, I started to
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: realize that, first of all, my diet, whatever I was eating,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: was not somehow removed from and innocent in impacts on
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: the natural world. I mean, the way we create crop
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: fields is we you know, we rip up prairie or
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: we fell forest or whatever. You know, there's wildlife habitat
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: that gets gets destroyed to create agriculture. And then we
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: if we have any large numbers of deer or or
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: other creature is that are coming to feast on that agriculture, well,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: then you know we have to kill them or control
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: them in some way. And I started to read books
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: like it's a fantastic book called Heart and Blood by
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Richard Nelson about deer, one of my favorite books about
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: about deer. Uh. He's an anthropologist and he studies people's
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: relationships with deer all across North America. And I realized, Wow,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: there are these, you know, soybean fields and pumpkin fields,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: and at any high density of of deer population, farmers
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: and folks who get egg tags are killing a lot
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: of deer to protect these agricultural crops. Almost any agricultural
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: crop involves, you know, controlling deer in most of North America.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: And I found that rather disturbing. As a vegan. That's like, what,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: you know, what does that mean now if I'm eating
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: vegetables tofu made of soybeans? You know, Um, this sort
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: of disconcerting to realize how much is going on. And
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: of course grain combines are chopping up smaller creatures all
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the time and so on. So I was still vegetarian
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: at that point. But what those realizations did is they
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: took this very black and white view I had of
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: the world. You know, plants, good animals, bad for food, um.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: And it introduced a lot of gray and I these
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: very hard edges, these hard ethical distinctions that I made,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: started to soften a bit. So I was just a
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: bit more open minded to possibilities and what things mean
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: and don't mean. And then a few years later, maybe
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: two years later, UM, my doctor um looked at my
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: blood chemistry and said, you know, your your health, maybe
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: in my immune system. I wasn't like I was definitely ill,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: but my my immune system wasn't doing great. And she said,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: you know, you might want to consider some change to
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: your diet because your your blood chemistry suggests that nutrition
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: is a bit off. Um. And she suggested that I,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: you know, put some animal foods back into my diet. Um.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: And So between that initial realization and that sort of
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: a softening of those categories, you know, hardening of the
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: categories is I think the dangerous disease uh. And then
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: my you know, dietary and nutritional. So the situation, I said, okay,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: let's try something different. Um. So first it was like
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: a bowl of yogurt, you know, which is if you've
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: been a vegan for a decade, like a bowl of
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: yogurt is pretty radical. Big deals time referred to as radical.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: And then you know, some some eggs, and we started,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: you know, buying some local chicken. And at that point
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I said, you know, we started eating some fish too.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: And my wife had been vegetarian and she sort of
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: went this whole journey with me. Uh And I said, well,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I'm eating other creatures now. I mean, I'm back to
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: this and dealing with psychologically dealing with, you know, eating
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: other creatures, which is kind of weird if you've been
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: a vegetarian for a long time. Um. So I said,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to fishing. You know, I'm gonna
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: start getting back into into fishing and taking some degree
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: of firsthand responsibility being involved directly with that. So I
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: did that, and within you know, a year, I started
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: just thinking about hunting. I live in a rural area.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: I live in north central Vermont. I look out the
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: door and there's woods and you know, there's deer and
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: some small game. And said, you know, I wonder about hunting.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: And I didn't have any immediate background in at my
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: uncle on my mom's side, one of my uncle's is
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: a hunter, but I didn't grow up right around him,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: and so I didn't have any direct immediate family or
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: friends that that hunted, and so it seemed kind of foreign, uh,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: kind of a strange idea. But hunting culture is still
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: pretty alive here. It's not you know, it's not hidden.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: There's plenty of hunters around. And I just started to
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: entertain the possibility and and toy with it and talk
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: to my uncle and just sort of ease into it.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: And part of the reluctance was both the idea of
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: taking a life of a large mammal like a deer.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: I was reluctant somewhat to do that, but also because
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I had so many and we have generally as a culture,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: so many conflicting um ideas and feelings and stereotypes about hunting.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: It was not just the act of hunting, which appealed
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: to me as an outdoors person, you know, I already
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: like to hike and watch wildlife and look for a
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: wildlife sign and all that stuff. So it was just
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: another another layer to getting to know the land, you know,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: through a hunter's eyes. That was appealing in and of itself,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: um as was the conflicted sort of ethical confrontation with
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: you know, taking life of a big animal. Um But
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: the idea of becoming a hunter, just that identity. It's
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: kind of weird coming from coming from where I came from, Like,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: what's it going to mean if I'm a hunter? And
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: is that? Was that appealing and like some kind of
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: romantic notion of the backwoods hunter of the un or
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: is that appalling when you thought of the stereotypes of
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: the beer guzzling redneck, shoot him up, bang them up?
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Whoa um, a little bit of the appeal, but probably
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: more of the appall like who you know, who am
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: I going to be? Like in my own eyes, in
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: my friends sizes? And you know, it's just a strange
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: thing to contemplate. And hunting, incidentally, and I covered this
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: a little bit in my book. Even though we have
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: a various sort of mythologies about hunting in American history,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: hunting has actually always been kind of a conflicted thing.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: It was a conflicted thing for the early settlers in
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: terms of who got to hunt back in Europe and
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: who hunted here, namely mostly American Indians, um, And so
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: it was sort of sort of social class and culture
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: and religion. The Puritans didn't like it, because people enjoyed it.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's all kinds it's always been kind of conflicted.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: That how it's been conflicted has changed over the years
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: and the degree to which has been conflicted, but it's
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: always been this kind of weird thing. So would that
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: being the case, how did you mentioned a second ago
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: with not only did you have to think about what
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: this change meant for you, but what do your friends
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: think at the time? What are the your fellow the
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: gains are vegetarians think as you were considering making this change,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and then when you did, were you were they supportive?
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Were you ostracized? Did they think you're nuts? Yeah? Mostly
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: I had. I was more fearful of it than that
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I needed to be, you know, I was. I guess
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: that wasn't fearful, but I wondered um And mostly there
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: was no big blowback or anything. I think some people.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Even the idea of the fishing was kind of weird
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: for some people that I knew. But a lot of
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: my friends weren't vegetarians, and they just knew that I was,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: and some were, but it was I was. It was
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: overall a pretty easy transition. UM. Some people were certainly surprised,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: neighbors and friends who would find out that I was
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: hunting or see me out a neighbor walking his dogs,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: like what are you doing out here? Uh? But I
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: had a lot to do with their knowledge of me.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: And there's you know, some some of them they're stereotypes
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: of hunting and of hunters. UM. So I didn't exactly
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: advertise it. When I first started to explore this and
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: first started to get back into fishing and hunting. It
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: wasn't something that I that I talked about a lot
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: or publicized in any way. Um. And actually when I
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: first wrote an essay for a very short, like one
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: page essay for a magazine about this transition into into
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: being a hunter, I was a little bit unsure how
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: people would react, you know, I think if it was
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: my first step coming out at the closet as a hunter,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: you know, like, who's who's going to find out on
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: one hunter? And what are they gonna think? Um? And
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: then you know, I wrote another essay for different magazine
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: about about a similar of similar sort of thing, and
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: then started to commplate this idea of of actually writing
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: a book, which you know, I just felt compelled to
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: do it. And you asked a few minutes ago, like
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: what were you aim to accomplish? You know, I had
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: no idea. I just felt compelled like I had written
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: this essay and I thought, gosh, maybe this is the
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: seed of a book. Maybe I could develop I've never
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: written a book before, you know, maybe I could develop
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: this into a full fledged book. And just the idea
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: sort of nod at me, and I started to do
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: some research into how do you get a book published?
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, it took me a couple of years
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: to to make it happen, but it just wouldn't let
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: go of me. I felt like I was a story
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: that I just had to had to tell for some reason. Yeah,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you did. Um. I think there's there's an
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: important story to be told here. Um. So you you
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: had this compulsion to start taking some form of responsibility
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: for the animal protein that you're eating and that your
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: your impact on the world. You had an uncle who
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: was showing you some things about hunting. You eventually, you
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: know from from reading from having read the book, I
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: know that you eventually started going out and eventually you
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: do kill a deer. Eventually A key word there. Tell
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: me what what was that experience? Like? What we're what
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: was going through your mind, through your heart? What what happened. Well,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: you know, it took me a few years. I was
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: though I hunt. I hunted both season, rifle season, muzzle
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: litter season. Um. Mostly I was hunting rifle season. And
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: after my second year, after my first year hunting, I
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: think that meant that here in Vermont, I was restricted
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: to you know, ah forked fork dandlers. You know, I
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: have an antler restriction rule here, so no does, no
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: spike horns, no fonts, just you know, bucks with with
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: more antler. And so I'd see deer, but I very
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: rarely saw a deer that was legal for me. And
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: I was pretty clueless and just trying to figure things out.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: So it took me several years. And by the time
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: I got it was like beginning of my fourth autumn
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: of of of deer hunting. And I had taken one
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: ill advised shot in rifle season a couple of years
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: earlier and hit a branch. You know, didn't hit the deer, thankfully, Um,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: but I had sort of given up, almost like I
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: was still going out there. That happened. If it was
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: in a place with more deer, or I had more
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: of a clue, I might have had more faith. But
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: the success rate here in Vermont in rifle season is
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: pretty darn low, and my confidence had had slept quite bit.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: And then second morning of that that rifle season, a
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: couple of hours into into that morning, you know, here
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: comes this this buck and I was completely shocked. And
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: he came into it was pretty thickly wooded area that
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: I hunt, and he came into about thirty yards away
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: and had his head down on a scrape, and you know,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: I didn't have a clear shot, and he took that.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: He took that last step and I had a clear
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: shot and squeeze the trigger and he did that little
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: hunch to jump that they'll do, and you've got a good,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: good heart shot, and you know, ran about twenty yards
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: and went down and didn't get up. And I was
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: in complete shock. I mean I was a complete shock
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: because it had happened. Partly, I was like, oh my god,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: that's finally happened, but more more importantly, I was in
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: kind of emotional shock that I had just killed this animal,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: and I had killed you know, in the previous few years,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: I've done some small game hunting. I shot a few
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: snowfoot hairs and I taken out a few woodchucks in
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: the garden and that kind of thing. But you know,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: killing a big animal like a deer, it's a totally
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: different thing. And I was just kind of numb at first,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: like just shocked that had happened, and that that here's
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: this dead animal. Um So I you know, went through
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: the field dressing and dragged out the deer with the
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: help of a friend, and I realized it was over.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: The next I don't know, a few hours or day
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: or so that I was sad. I mean, I was.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of grief for me. I had,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: you know, taken the life of this this gorgeous, gorgeous animal,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: and I wondered, I was like, am I gonna want
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: to do this again? This is all this effort, all
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: this time, all of and I, yeah, I'm getting food
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: out of it, but I've also, you know, bear the
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: responsibility for I've been taken this life firsthand. Do I
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: want to do that again? And it was the for me.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: It was the process of butchering that animal. It was
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: a process of and which I always knew i'd do myself.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: You know, I'd helped my uncle do it once, and
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: I knew that just as being a vegetarian. I wasn't
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: gonna just start, you know, um buying meat from the
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: lots to meet from the grocery store, and I wanted
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: to hunt it. I wasn't gonna now turn around and
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: take it to a butcher. I needed to really take
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: it all the way through, go through with the whole thing.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: And so standing there for hours and hours working on
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: the butchering of of that deer was it was an
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: amazing experience for me and really got me grounded and
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: it felt like, you know, this is so familiar, like
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: this is ancient and I'm okay with it. Actually, I'm
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: this is part of you know, call it what you will,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: you know, a circle of life or whatever you wanna
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: call it, but this is, you know, this is the
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: way things are, and it's okay for me to be
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: part of it. And it actually feels, you know, it
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: feels appropriate and yeah, okay, I don't want to rush
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: out and kill another deer next week, but by the
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: time next fall all rolls around, yeah, I'll probably do
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: this again. Did you have any hesitation actually before pulling
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: the trigger, when you realize that a shot was there,
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: did you still have this moment of do I really
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: want to do this or had you already made that
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: decision so far ahead of time and putting so much
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: time that it was just you know, happening. It was
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: just at that point, it was just happening. I mean, yeah,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: at that point it was I've been I've been on
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: that I've been on that path for years at that point,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: and I knew if I was giving the opportunity, I
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: knew where it was going. So what about now, how
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: does your feeling or what is that moment like now
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: after killing a deer? Do you feel the same things
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: that you felt that first time? Do you ever still
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: have those questions? Um? Or I don't know where where's
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: your head at now when you walk up on a
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: deer you just shot? Yeah, it's it's really different now.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: I mean it's still and it's sort of has is evolved.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Like the second year was different, the third year was different,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: you know, the fourth year of the fifty or the
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: sixth year, you know, each deer was different. Um And
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: for quite a few years it was still a serious shock,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Like my I was like in an altered state for
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: like another day or two after that. Not the same
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: kind of shock, not the same kind of conflicted feelings. Um,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: not doubting it at all, you know, in that way,
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: but just the power, you know, the the powerful and
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: sort of awesome moment, in that old sense of awe
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: of you know, beauty and power and of taking a
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: life is still you know, still something that really affects me. Um.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: It doesn't affect me as much as it did in
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: those first few years. Um, but it's still you know,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: it's sacred. I mean, it's a I think it's a
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: powerful and sacred thing and it needs to be done
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: respectfully and and all of that. But I'm not conflicted
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: like I used to be. Yeah, yeah, that's that first year.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Now I feel like I feel like I even have
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: a lot of the same feelings and thoughts. And it
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: is a powerful it's a powerful, sacred thing, I think.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: I think if you don't have those feelings, or if
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: you get to a point where you don't feel something,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to always explain that complicated kind
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: of swamp of emotions that many of us feel after
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: having taken a life. Um, but if there's not something
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: deep that you are experiencing in that moment, I worry
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: a little bit. I worry that something has been lost there.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, I mean you go back to you know,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: you go back to cave art. I mean, you know,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: animals have been important to human beings forever, you know,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: and there's always been you know, like rituals and ceremonies
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: around the hunt, and you know, people have always recognized,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: in various cultures, in various ways that our relationship with
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: these animals, you know, and frankly, with the act of killing,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: you know, of the violent taking of another life, especially
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: of another big mammal, you know, that deserves to be
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: treated with a certain degree of reverence and and even caution,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of morally and spiritually. And the thing
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: I'm concerned about, h not so much with hunters in general,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: but just our relationship with animals in general for food,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: is that you know, so many of us again not
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: so much hunters, but you know, Americans for example, in general,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: I think, becomes so disconnected from the animal that it's
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: just meat, you know, and there's its has no soul,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: it has no heart. When we go to the grocery store,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: it's just a commodity. It's just a package. It came
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: on a truck, you know. Um, and that's and that's
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: one thing that I think actually hunters have in common
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: with a lot of vegetarians is that a lot of
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: vegetarians refuse to say, oh, that's just meat. I'm not
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: going to think about it as an animal. You know.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: They say, no, it's an animal. You know, we got
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: to respect that, and I choose not to eat it,
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: you know, and hunters, by and large, we'll say, you know,
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: I don't want to just think of all my food
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: as just food. Now, it's also an animal that I
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: you know, I know that animals habits, I know the
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: places where that animal lives, and I know that individual animal,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: the life of you know, which I took. And and
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: so there's a you know, we sort of by hunting,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: we're forcing ourselves and want to stay connected to that
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: and not just make all meet some commodity on the shelf. Yeah. Yeah,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a unique perspective, just a powerful connection
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: I think that we uniquely get as hunters. That. Yeah,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: sometimes it's it's hard, it's a it's a frustrating irony
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: when you find some people who don't hunt, but who
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: do eat meat just fine, who want to attack hunters
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: for doing what we do and I can understand sometimes
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: when they see something, how it can seem disrespectful to animals.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: How there are certainly things out there that frame hunting
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: and hunters in a bad light. And I can understand
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: why nine hunters would see that and nothing too keenly
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: of us sometimes, um, but sometimes there is some amazing
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: hypocrisy out there. Then that is I think on us
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: to better communicate and help people understand why we do
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: what we do and how we do it and how
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: maybe it Unfortunately none of us have clean hands, right,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: as you said earlier, we all make an impact. We
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: all have blood on our hands, whether we want to
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: admit it or not. If even if you're not eating meat, Um,
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: just by living in this society, we all make an impact.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: And I think we as hunters, um, like you said,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: we at least can try to take responsibility for some
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: portion of that, reconnect with that in some way. And UM,
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty powerful thing. And and all
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: this stuff we're talking about, UM, I never used to
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: think about this at all. You know, I grew up
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: in a hunting family. I started going out in the
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: woods when I was three years old and I was
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: sitting in the blind with my dad at four and
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: I was hunting with a bow in my hand at
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen. And I don't think I ever thought
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: about what I was doing or why I was doing it,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: or it was just yeah, it was it was just
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: what you did. And I knew, I knew I enjoyed
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: doing it. I enjoyed being up there with my grandpa,
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: my dad and my uncle, and I liked being in
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: in the woods, and I loved watching deer, and I
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: love the idea of hunting. Um. And I ended up,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: you know, being able to kill a deer and then
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: another deer, and I started having success doing that, and
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed in venice, and it was it was just
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: what you did. Um. And I think a lot of
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: people who grow up hunting, having been just in that culture,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: in that world, UM, you might not ever take a
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: second to step back and start thinking about hunting. It
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: wasn't for me until I was probably twenty one or
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: twenty two or somewhere around then, when I started actually
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: writing and reading a lot about hunting. Um. You know,
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: just through my work with Wired Hunt, I just was
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: thinking about a lot more, trying to like communicate about it,
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: which led me to reading about other people's perspectives on it,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: which forced me to start looking at myself, forced me
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: to start looking at what I was doing and how
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: I was doing it and what that meant. And that
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: has been one of the most powerful transitions I think
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: for myself as a hunter over the last decade, as
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: I've gone from just being a hunter to becoming a
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: thoughtful hunter and to actually doing things, um with a
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: clarity of mind, maybe an understanding of of why and
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: how I'm doing these things. Um. You, interestingly, being an
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: adult onset hunter, you were kind of forced to do
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: that deep thinking leading up to it because you had to.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: For me, I didn't even have a decision to make.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: It was just this is what you did, and I
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: just fell into it. I think as an adult coming
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: to this, you have to think about these things deeply
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: and and and decide whether or not this is the
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: right thing for you to do and how you're gonna
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: do it. Um, why do you think Maybe it's not
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: even why, but I think so. Do you think that
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: this kind of deep thinking, like considering why we do
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: these things, how we do these things, all these things
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: we just talked about, Do you think it's important for
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: people even that have been hunting their entire lives, to
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: start asking these questions of themselves, or at least to
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: be thinking about these ideas and topics. I think it's
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's really useful for a variety of reasons, um,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: And I can touch on one or two of those. Um.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: I mean I'm hesitant to sort of proselytize anybody and say, no, yeah,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: you grew up hunting, but now you've got to think
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: about it, and as there's a little heavy handed, you know,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: to tell people sort of how to think or what
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: to think. Um, but I do you know, I do
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: think it is helpful for all of us, whether we
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: grew up you know, non hunting or in an anti
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: hunting family, to think about and investigate our own beliefs
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: and our own assumptions and and learn more about other perspectives.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: And the same true for folks who you know, grew
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: up in a very much in a hunting family and
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: hunting culture, to say, oh, well, you know, why why
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: do I think about it this way? And why do
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: those people think about it that way? And just understand. Um.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I think it's really useful
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: to do the kind of you know, reflection and question
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: that you've obviously done. Um. Is that it helps you
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: become a better ambassador. It helps you become someone who
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: can help build these connections and coalitions, you know, whether
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: it has to do with you know, wildlife habitat or
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: public lands or you know, connections between what I call
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: adult stuff hunting and the food movement and just finding
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: the common ground. That doesn't it's not turn everyone into hunters,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: and that's not the goal. You know, things would be
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: insane if everyone hunted. Uh, just if there's the numbers, Um,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: it's not. That's not the point. It's not sting everyone
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: in the hunters. But if we want sustainable funding for
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: our fish and wildlife agencies, if we want you know,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: intact public lands where a variety of types of of
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: recreation are possible for human beings and a variety of
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: diverse wildlife species can can survive, that we need to
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: be able to work together and not always be on
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: these you know, these opposing sides and not perceive ourselves
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: as being on one side versus this, uh, you know,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: this enemy. So I think for that reason alone, and
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: there are other benefits too, But I think for that
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: reason alone, it's really helpful to reflect on those things
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: and start to recognize some of the ways that we
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: communicate as the other side quote unquote other side communicates,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: whether it's through you know, the words we use and
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: the images we use that you know don't help, in
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: other ways that do help. Yeah, it's something that UM,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: maybe to the chagrin of our listeners sometimes I preach
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: about this often in that just being this um what
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: you just subscribed there, How we are perceived by non hunters,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: how we communicate to non hunters, It matters. And you know,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: no Number one, like you said, we do want some
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: additional hunters. We do need to make sure we don't
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: lose our hunting population because we have a we have
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: a powerful, meaningful impact on the natural world, and we
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: fund a lot of things, and the work we do
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: from a conservation standpoint is important. So bringing more people
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: into the fold, yes, definitely important. But number two, at
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: a minimum, it's important that people will at least be
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: accepting of our way of life because we live in
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: a democracy where votes in the end end up deciding
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: very often what privileges are allowed and whether you like
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: it or not. Hunting is a privilege right now. It's
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: not something that's guaranteed by the Constitution or anything like that.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: So if we want to be able to continue to hunt,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: we need to make sure that people that are voting
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: view our activity as as something that's acceptable in today
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: today's world. And that's on us to make sure that's happening,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: to make sure that we're representing ourselves in such a
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: way that people can see that and say, Okay, you
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: know what, I get that I maybe don't want to
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: do it, but I'm okay with Mark killing a deer
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: and feeding his family that way. Um. You you said
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: something in a blog post I saw that I liked,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: um that I think would help this whole challenge of
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: helping hunters non hunters meet and see some things maybe
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: a little more eyed eye. You said, quote, what if
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: at least once in their respective lifetimes, every prius hauleda
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: deer and every hunter drove a hybrid? Can you can
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: you explain that? Why? Why that might be helpful? Well?
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: It was, you know, the that particular their posts came
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: out of an experience I had, right, I took a
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: white Tail and we had my friend and I had
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: two vehicles where we were hunting. We had We had
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: my little hatchback in his little back. Uh I used
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: to I used to have a pickup truck, but at
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: the time I was driving a you know, a little
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: superdu hatchbag. But what we had right there at the
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: wood lot, uh family wood lot of of his was
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: his prius. He turns out he's a lifelong hunter. He's
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: not a you know, not an adult lonset. But I
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: took a picture of it, and I just had these
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: you know, behind legs of this white tail buck hanging
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: out at the end of a prius because it couldn't
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: fit in there, you know, And it was just just
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: the image was so funny. Um. And but I thought
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: it was a great metaphor for bringing together these different uh,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: these different communities and just sort of trying on for size.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: You know. Hey, we can think about deer hunting, for example,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: UM as you know, local, free range, pretty nearly organic food,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: which really appeals to the to the you know folks
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: in the environmental conservation community. UM, but they don't necessarily
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: always connect that with hunting, and so and lots of hunters,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: I know, including the guy who owns his previous you know,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: he and his wife that at the time, I think
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: they owned one car between them and it's the previous
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: And he cares a lot about environmental conservation and you
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: know he he's he's a professional Forrester and worked with
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: you know, the Audubon Society and you know, lots of
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: conservation work. Um, and he's a hunter. Got to be
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: able to see these these sorts of sorts of overlaps
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: in our values and what we're concerned about. Maybe how
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: our image of ourselves and our image of the other
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: getting the way sometimes, So how do we do a
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: better job of that? And that being I guess, how
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: do we do a better job of communicating and representing
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: ourselves so that those types of connections can have can happen, um,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: Because I think especially today in the world of social media,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: where messages or imagery can can go out into the
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: world and then it can be shared to far reaching
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: parts of society that that don't have any context around it.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of examples where things kind of get
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know, things get kind of crazy. How how
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: do we get better at r PR, How do we
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: get better at handling and aiding an atmosphere where these
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: types of positive connections can happen and not negative mm hmm.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: I think there are a number of parts to that,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: and one of them is developing an understanding of what
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: that thing, whether it's a picture or you know, uh,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: a phrase, you know, language, images, whatever it is, how
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: is that likely to be perceived by folks who aren't
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: who who are who don't have context for it or
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: don't have that experience. Um. And I find that on
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: both sides. Again, I'm using the two side language, which
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: probably bad. Um. But people in both the sort of
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: the the extreme amps will often and this is not
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: just honey and you know, not hunting, but any any
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: sort of issue of our whole world. Yeah, exactly, we
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: sort of we're getting a little bubbles and we just
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: dig in and we're like, look, this is who I am,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: this is what I believe. Take it or leave it,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: you know. And so hunters and you know, any number
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: of people can can do that. And we just keep
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: saying and doing and displaying the same stuff. And we
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: don't want often to question it. We don't want to
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: really know. We don't you know, we even say, you know,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: I don't give it how that person feels, let them
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: be upset. You know, I'm just gonna do it louder
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: and exactly, you know, And I get where that impulse
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: comes from. I mean, I feel that way sometimes. But hmm,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: if we're thinking about this strategically, and we're thinking about
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: the long haul, as you say, you know, we are
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: an extreme minority as hunters, you know, and in a
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: democracy where votes determined policy. In the long run, you know,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: you can't have five or of the population just given that,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: you know, having that screw amattitude, and I think that
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: they're going to continue to be you know, applauded or
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: even tolerated, It's just not going to happen in the
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: long run. So if we just think about, um, whether
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: it's the sorts of pictures that we use, or even
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: even the language that that we use. And I'm not
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: saying we should like totally censor ourselves and not use
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: the sorts of language that we're accustomed to up grew
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: up with, but we need to at least be aware
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: of the impact that I can have and make an
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: effort to sort of translate it for people. You know,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: if I here's the context of this, here's what you
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: know this means in my community, and I can understand
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: how it might not make sense or might be offensive
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: in your community. Let's talk about that. You know, here's
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: what this image meant to me or or means to
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: my people. You know, And I don't understand what you're saying.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: You keep using this, you know, this word, and I
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: think it means this, and that really ticks me off.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: But what do you mean? You know, I mean, just
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: finding ways to have that kind of conversation about about
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: how we're you know, communicating, instead of falling prey to
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: the temptation to just jump into that sort of fight
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: or flight mode. You know, I feel we're under assault
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: as hunters were defensive were. I mean, that's a certain mindset.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: But rather than just falling into we're going to fight
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: the good fight, realize that there are probably a bunch
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: of people who on this quote other side are also
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: falling prey to that temptation to fly off the handle
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: and just dig in and get angry and you know,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: and blame us for being you know, barbarians. Um. And
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: if if there's some on that side and some on
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: this side who can resist that temptation and walk into
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: you know, the admittedly pretty uncomfortable territory of saying, you know,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: maybe my view isn't the whole truth. Maybe there are
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: other perspectives out there that you know, have some degree
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: of validity to them, and maybe we could find out
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: more about each other. You know, it's uncomfortable, it's and
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: it can be really you know three perfectly honest. It
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: can be really disorienting when you start to realize that,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this view that I thought was just
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: like horrible. You know, I still don't agree with it,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: but it kind of makes sense now that I understand it. Right,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: that's goods orient and confusing, and to your point, you
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: might not necessarily agree with them, but at least understanding
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: the the background or understanding the rationale for that can
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: can still help us better work together or at least
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: understand each other a little bit more, even if we
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: still vehemently disagree with each other. Um That in itself,
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: I think is a step that can make a big difference. Yeah, absolutely,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: And whether that's to the future of hunting or you know,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: while less conservation more broadly, or any number of other things,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: it can make a huge difference. Just having that some
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: of that sort of bipartisanship speaking of you touched on language.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: You talked about how one of the things we can
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: focus on how we talk about things, and it just
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: made me think of a question, uh that I get sometimes,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: and that is how to what word to use when
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: describing what we do when we either kill or harvest
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: an animal. I've I've used both the different times, and
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: I've had people. I've had people criticize me. Yeah, they'll
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: tell me, why would you say you're harvesting an animal?
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: That's disrespectful to the animal because you're treating it just
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: like you're referring to it almost like a crop um
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: Or you have people who say, why would you say
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: that's the criticism of harvest, and the criticism if I
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: say I killed the deer, they said, Oh, you shouldn't
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: use the word kill. That's too harsh. You're gonna set
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: people or people will um. You know, I don't know.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: You can't win with either one. I tend, I personally
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: tend to use the word kill, not because it's some
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: type of vicious term, simply because it is the reality
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: of what we're doing. And I'm um, it's it's what's
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: happening here, and I'm going to take that responsibility. But
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: that's just me. I don't have anything against anyone for
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: using either or what are your thoughts though from from
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: your unique perspective, having been on, you know, being outside
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: out the hunting community at one point and now inside
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: of it, how what are your views on those two
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: words and how we refer to what we're doing. I
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: don't tend to use harvest either. UM. I find it
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: feels a little weird, and it does feel like I'm
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: talking about the animal like a crop. I get sort
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: of the why it's used and how deeply embedded is
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: in state and other wildlife management professions and institutions UM,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: and in the hunting community more broadly. So I get
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: it UM. And some people really use it in a
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: very mindful way and they're thinking about what what harvest
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: really means. And you know, so I've sort of gotten
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: more accustomed to it, but I still don't use it UM.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: I would rather use something that seems more, as you say,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: sort of more honest about this is what's happening, what
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: we're doing. UM. You know, I personally often use the
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: word take UM, which I used take and kill typically UM.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: Take is not as sort of direct as kill UM.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: But sometimes all I'll use that sort of as a
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: middle ground where it's it's not you know, not not
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: a crop, not a crop word you know? Is there
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: is there validity to that? Um? That criticism of talking
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: about killing an animal as a as a former vegan
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: and vegetarian who probably had some anti hunting views, when
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: you heard someone say I'm killing a deer. I killed
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: a deer, did that even turn you off even more? Um?
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: And I asked that, because now, if we're thinking about
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: how can we better communicate to non hunters, how should
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: we be talking about this? Does that even matter? Um?
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know that that particular language, you know, matters
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: a whole lot. But I don't thank you. From my
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: memory and my perspective, I don't think that someone using
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: the word kill was any more upsetting. I mean, if anything,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: it felt like sometimes it felt like harvest was kind
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: of euphemism, like you're kind to pretend you're not killing,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: Like come on, you know, don't don't hide behind that
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: word you're killing something. Uh. So I don't think that
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: I don't think that using the word kills a problem
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: for the non hunting public, that they know what you're doing,
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: getting can't hide that. Yeah, So, so we can improve
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: how we talk about hunting a little bit. We can
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: try to represent ourselves in a in a more positive,
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: respectful light to make sure from the outside looking in,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: what we're doing, you know, is is a positive thing. Um,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: But how do we go about introducing new people to
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: hunting being an adult onset hunter? Is there anything you
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: can share, you know, either someone helped you out that
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: you said, yeah, this was really helpful, this helped me
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: get into it, or anything that we can be doing
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: now to to better help bring people into this community. Well,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: the biggest draw for most of the people who are
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: getting into hunting now as adults here in the US
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: and in Canada for that matter, is food. I mean
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: those of us who have more experienced hunting, and certainly
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: those of us who like you, grew up hunting. You know,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: you're hunting for lots of reasons, right, It's not just food,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: it's not just you know, any one thing. It's a
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: whole mix of reasons. Right. And yet the the place
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: that people that adults are mostly first connecting to it,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: they might be you know, through a friendship or you
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: know a relationship between boyfriend girlfriend or spouses or whatever
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: it might be, that kind of relation, relationship connection. But
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: the thing that makes them interested at first, it's food,
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: by and large, that's the most common thing. And so
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: just giving people the opportunity to try venison for example,
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: that's been you know, well prepared and that they find delicious.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: You know, if you want to interest people in hunting,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: you give them a chance to two see it as
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: a source of food and to actually try the food,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: you know, and that's like the the big gateway into
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: the interest. Um. Now there's a vast territory between interests
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: and being a self identified hunter who can and will
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: go out in the woods on your own and hut um.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: And that's something that there are a lot of folks
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: interested in right now. Um. And I've been doing some
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: work with with a few folks on this is what
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: are the barriers for new adults? What are the barriers
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: or some of the obstacles for people who want to
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: coach them or instruct them or mentor them, and how
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: do we navigate that? You know, as long as it's
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: just you know, cultural differences, political value differences, perception and stereotypes,
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: all the stuff we've been talking about, you know, can
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: come up. Uh, but having someone to turn to, not
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: necessarily going to take you out hunting every season or
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: you know, anything like that, but just someone who knows
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: the basics, um and can give you advice, you know,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: someone to turn to anything from well how do I
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: pick out an appropriate rifle or you know, what is
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: what do I look for in a good hunting spot
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: or any anything? Just having someone like for me, with
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: my uncle, I could email him. I only see him
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: like once or twice a year because we lived five
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: hours apart, but I could email him, and I did mercilessly.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: And I had just had so many questions because you
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: said you were you know, in the field at three
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: or four, Right, you learned stuff when you were a
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: kid that you don't even remember learning. There's I mean,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: you're just steeped in it. And by the time you
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: were fifteen, you probably know more, knew more about hunting
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: than I know now, you know. I mean, it's just
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: a fact. You just absorb that from your experiences, from family, friends,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: just you know, you know so much. And so those
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: of us who come to it in our twenties, thirties, forties,
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: we don't know any of that, and we're starting. You know,
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: we don't know the lingo, we don't know what deer
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: sign even looks like in the woods. I mean, we
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: don't know anything. Um. And so just being a resource
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: someone who's you know, willing to be asked, you know,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: just not like like not give become this person's with
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: some buddy and go out and mention them every day
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: of the season or something crazy, but just being a
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: support and encouragement and a resource for them, whether it's
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: technical information or you know, if if they're struggling, if
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: they've wounded an animal, God forbid, you know, and there's
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: gonna be you know times in any any new hunter's
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: career of becoming an hunter that they're gonna have doubts
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: about something um and having you know, someone who can
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: just listen to them and not not try to fix it,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: not trying to tell them you know, how they should feel,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: but just you know, you've probably been somewhere similar. Even
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: if you didn't have the same kind of doubts they had,
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: you know you've been in a similar situation and at
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: least you have some inkling of what they're struggling with.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: And they gotta talk to a hunter. So it's it's
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: so true, and it's it's easy. UM. I think sometimes
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: I fall into this and I found myself. UM, you
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: fall into especially if you're someone who's so um Like
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: for me, I'm a self identified hunter, and it really
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: is like my life. My entire life kind of revolves
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: around the things I do from a hunting perspective, and
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: I can get so caught up in all the different
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: things I'm doing, the places I'm going to, the projects
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: i'm working on, the time I'm spending in the field.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: It becomes really easy to become really selfish. Unfortunately, and
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the season goes by and you're like, wow,
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't take out anyone else hunting, or I didn't
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: help anyone else out. Um. It's easy to fall into that,
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: and I think it's something that at least me personally,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to find ways to to get better about
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: that and to just somehow UM keep myself reminded of
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: the fact that that it's important to reach out to
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: new people. It's important to offer that mentorship if you can,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: to to take a day and take someone else out. UM.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: Like you said, you don't need to commit to taking
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: someone out everything single time you're going hunting. Um. But
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: I think if we can all help you know, one
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: person out once a year or something, or as a
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: starting point at least, I'm going to try to find
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: ways like that to do this and start making some
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: kind of impact, um because if not, it's really easy
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: for us to get obsessed with our own thing and
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: forget about the bigger picture, which I think is uh,
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: which is a dangerous thing for the future of of
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: our lifestyle. Sure. And the other reason why doing that
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: matters so much just getting some of these folks helping
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: them find a path in to hunting if they want
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: to explore it is because they become your best ambassadors.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: They might be. They might be the only hunter in
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: their family, or the only hunter in their workplace or
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: their circle of friends or whatever it is. And even
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: if they only hunt for five years, even if they
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: decide not to continue and become a lifelong hunter, they
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: have hunted. They are gonna be talking about hunting to
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: some degree. They're going to have a perspective on hunting
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: and what it means and who hunters are that is
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: totally different from the stereotypes that circulate around them. And
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: so there they can be the translators. You don't have
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: to like like just like talk about hunting differently and
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: just do different you know, take or show different pictures
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: related to hunting. I mean, not that's all great, but
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: if you introduce one person to hunting, they're the ones
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: who can help build that bridge. Yeah, there's a there's
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: a significant ripple effect, absolutely, and so for the rest
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: of their life they are likely to have that that
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: kind of ripple effect out among people, even if they
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: don't keep hunting. Yeah, and either they don't keep buying
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: a license and contributing to the agency through that particular
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: funding mechanism. Yeah, that's that's an important thing to remember.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: It's it's it's a long term type of impact you
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: can have just with that perspective that can be shared
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: with one other person who could be shared with one
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: other person who then shares that with two other people,
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: and that that could be the salvation of what we're
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: trying to do here and then in the long run, Um, yeah,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: I mean I see, I see that happening a lot
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: right now with you know, with like folks who are
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: involved with uh, you know, just getting in a hunting
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: particularly folks who are involved with the back country hunters
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: and anglers. You know, it's it's bridging this gap between
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: the environmental community and the hunting community. And they're folks
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: who I know, who are you know? Adult hunters only
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: been hunting for a handful of years, but they believe
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: in what you know that organization is doing, or just
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: they're involved other sorts of conservation work and they are
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: the only hunter or one of the first hunters and
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: their circles of friends and family and people are like, wow,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: you hunt, and it just changes the conversation. Yeah. So
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: so speaking of adult onset hunters, one of the one
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges and surveys have shown this and
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: I think anecdotally a lot of us can relate to this.
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: One of the greatest challenges for all hunters, let alone
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: new hunters, is finding somewhere to hunt. If you don't
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: live next to some giant public land or if you
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: don't own ground, it can be really hard to find
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: places to hunt in a lot of parts of the country,
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: which is why I personally thinking a lot of people
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: think that having public lands, having healthy and accessible public lands,
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: is so important. Um and I've seen that you are
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: on the board of directors for or you on the
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: board for the New England Chapter of back Country Hunters
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: and Anglers. I'm on the board for the Michigan Chapter
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: of back Country Hunters and Anglers. UM. I'm pretty passionate
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: about this as well. But why why are you involved
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: the organization? I mean, largely because of that gap bridging
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: that I see them doing. You know, they're willing to
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: take on stuff and especially public lands issues, but but
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: other issues as well that help and then do it
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: in a way that helps bridge the gap between the
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: pretty broad range of different cons of Asian groups UM
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: and perspectives UM. As far as access, I mean in
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: certain parts, certainly of New England, UM, Massachusetts and Connecticut
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: come to mind, it's an issue. It's a serious issue.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: And development. I mean, partly it's lack of public lands, UM,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: because we don't have nearly as much public lands as
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: are out in the West. But it's also just the
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: rate of development. I mean, what's happened in Massachusetts, Western
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: Massachusetts over the past you know, twenty years, thirty years, phenomenal.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: They're losing forest land and other wilife had it had
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: an incredible rates because people are building houses and strip
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: malls or whatever else. UM. So I think having a
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: an active hunting conservation voice like b h A, where
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: you know, it's we're speaking the language of access, public land, wildlife,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: habitat all this UM in a way that isn't ostracizing
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: but actually is encouraging really good partnerships with other conservation groups.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: And so I think that folks like v h A,
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: Proud Limited and a few others are doing that in
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: a really constructive way, UM and not doing it in
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: a highly sort of partisan way where it's you know,
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: just about hunting or just about one thing, but public
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: lands and access and and while it habitat and places
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: where you can go and get some quiet. So those
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: are commonly held values. And this goes back to what
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: you said at the beginning. You know, this is there's
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: something that Teddy Roosevelt and John Leir could agree on
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: despite their disagreement on hunting. Yeah. I agree, And I
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: think that to your point there, the message of groups
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: like b h A, it really resonates with with me,
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: and I think it can resonate with a lot of
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: other people too because of that fact. It's it's very
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: um m hmmm. I don't know, all inclusive in in
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: a way, and it also speaks to some of our
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: core central tenants of what we care about. So we
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: talked earlier about how there's a lot of positive things
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: that can come out of the hunting community working with
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: the non hunting conservation community, and I think we do have.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: In some cases, there are significant differences, like some people
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: within that community are not okay with the idea of
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: killing animals. Of course that's something we do, so there's
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: a significant difference there. But what we do all care about.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: We do care about healthy landscapes, We do care about
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: clean water. We do care about access to wildlife habitat
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: and healthy populations of wildlife and having the opportunities to
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: do those things. So I think I think the more
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: the hunting and fishing conservation organizations can focus on those aspects,
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: I think we're gonna have more opportunities for collaborations. So
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: that's that's why I personally been excited about b h
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: A or organizations like the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership that
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: really work on this this inclusive approach, like let's bring
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: people together rather than pointing out, well, we don't we
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: disagree on this one thing, So we were never going
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: to talk to you or work with you, or you know,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: attack some other group because they did work with a
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: group that has some opposing views. Um As if that's
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: a bad thing, that we can work with people have
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: different views sometimes. Um, I think that's actually a good thing.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: I think it's a good idea that we find ways
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: to to bridge those gaps, to find commonality, to work
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: towards shared goals. Um. If we want to keep doing
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: what we're doing and be able to live this hunting lifestyle,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: to be able to hunt and fish and have places
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: to do that and have healthy wildlife and have you know,
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: some trees and some rivers and some wild places to
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: get into, we're going to have to do those things
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: moving forward because they're just there's so many pressures on
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: this way of life in these places that could change
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: that if we aren't standing up for him. Yeah, and
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: and having as many people unified standing up for those
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: things as we can. But I think I think it's
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: it's really important if we start saying, well, if we
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: find one thing we disagree on, we're not gonna never
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: talk to each other again. You know that's crazy. Yeah,
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, if I had to habit. We kind of
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: do that often. If if you aren't, if you don't
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: match me perfectly and agree with me on everything, then
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: you're my enemy, you know. And it's sadly, you know,
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: it's it's a common sort of thing to do. But
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: you know, if you and I, the two of us
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: talk long enough, we'll find something we disagree on. It's
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: just it's not practical, Like I'm just when it comes
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: to these different things, like you can get emotional about things,
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: and you can get you know, revved up about something,
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: or you can get upset about something, or you can
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: really not like an idea. Um. But when it comes
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: right down to it, if I have a set of goals,
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: and if the most practical, pragmatic way to achieve those
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: goals is to make compromise occasionally, or to agree to disagree,
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: or to you know, say all right, well, you know
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: I don't necessarily like everything about you, but hey, we've
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: got this thing in common. Let's work towards this shared thing.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: It's just simply the reality of life. If you if
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: you want to get things done, if you want to
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: achieve goals, you're gonna have to take things from a
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: pragmatic standpoint and not just that emotional, emotionally charged UM
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: kind of way of a approaching issues these days that
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: I think is just causing a lot of crazy things
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: we see happening these days. I think that we've covered
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of interesting stuff here, um, and I always
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: like to talk about we are I said this to
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: you earlier, and I also mentioned on the show sometimes
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: we always got like to mix in our vegetables and
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: our candy. And today we've been talking a lot about
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: these issues that sometimes aren't fun to talk about or
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: to hear about. You know, these are the things that sometimes, um,
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: we'd like to be talking about a great hunting story
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: or some great adventure or ideas for how to you know,
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: have a more successful hunt. Um, that's a lot of
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: fun to do. But in the long run, if we
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: want to be able to have those conversations, we need
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: to get into this nitty gritty stuff every once in
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: a while, and uh till far. I think you're your
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: insight and your experience and kind of your background uniquely
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: I think helps you share this this perspective that I
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: think is a really good one for people in the
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: hunting community here. So I appreciate you doing that, Tobar,
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: and I want to ask you one last question if people,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: If people want to learn more about your perspectives and
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: ideas and some of your messages for this community, where
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: can they find that stuff online either or or your book?
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: Where can they find these things from you too? Our
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: my website easy to find, just my name Tobar Ceruti
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: tech of a thing to spell t O v A
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: r C E r U l l I dot com.
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: But just the mindful carnivore will uh certainly get you
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: too to my my website, as well as to any
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: number of places you know, Amazon or your local bookstore
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: or whatever where you could could get the book if
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: you're curious. Awesome. Well, I, like I said earlier, highly recommended.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed reading it, read it a handful of years ago,
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: and it's been one that's I've pointed people towards for
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: a long time now. So if you haven't read it yet,
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: give it a look. Interesting read and Tobar, thank you
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: again for for taking some time here and chatting with us.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: This has been really interesting and I really enjoyed it. Hey,
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: thanks for having me Mark. And that's a wrap, folks,
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: But a couple of quick reminders. Number one, if you
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: haven't left us a rating on iTunes, it takes like
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: twenty seconds. It's a huge help to the wire Hunt podcast,
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: so please do that if you can. Number two, go
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: head on over to the wired to Hunt YouTube channel.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: I've mentioned this a little bit over the past few weeks,
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: but I'm posting a lot more videos than I used
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: to try and do a minimum of a weekly video
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: kind of documenting all the things going on in my
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: life related to hunting right now. So be sure to
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: check out the wired hunt YouTube channel and otherwise, just
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: want to thank our partners who helped make all of
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: this possible. So big things to sit a gear Yetie
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: Cooler's Matthews Archery, maybe an Optics, the white Tail Institute
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: of North America, Trophy Ridge and hunt Maps, And finally,
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: thanks for being here with us, thanks for tuning in,
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: thank you for your attention and your support, and until
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: next time, stay wired Ton