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Rosaria Butterfield changes her mind about this · The Becket Cook Show

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life Audio.
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  Speaker 2: You are listening to The Becket Cook Show with your
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: the podcast, visit Patreon dot com slash the Beckett Cook Show.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a five
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  Speaker 2: star rating.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to the show today.
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  Speaker 3: I have two special guests, doctor Joseph Nicolosi Junior, who's
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: been on the show several times, and Rosario Butterfield.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: The reason we're doing.
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  Speaker 3: This episode is that Rosario reached out and she wanted
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  Speaker 3: to talk about reparative therapy because she used to publicly
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  Speaker 3: hold to the position that repairtive therapy was unbiblical, and
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  Speaker 3: then in twenty twenty two she publicly repented of that,
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  Speaker 3: and so we're going to talk about why she changed
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  Speaker 3: her mind on this whole topic, and we're going to
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  Speaker 3: get into a lot of details about the subject with
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  Speaker 3: doctor Nicolosi Junior.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to be fascinating.
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  Speaker 3: There are a lot of very interesting things that we're
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  Speaker 3: going to talk about. But first award from our sponsor,
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  Speaker 3: Please welcome Rosariah Butterfield and doctor Joseph Nicolosi Junior.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you.
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  Speaker 5: It is an honored packett.
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  Speaker 1: You guys are too much, Okay.
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  Speaker 3: I want to start this episode today with a personal
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  Speaker 3: tale of how I even got introduced to Joseph Nicolosi Junior,
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  Speaker 3: which was pretty It was a I think it was
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  Speaker 3: a god thing and it was pretty extraordinary.
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  Speaker 1: So I don't know when this was three years ago, maybe.
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  Speaker 3: I started to kind of think about being sexually abused
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  Speaker 3: as a nine year old by my friend's father. By
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  Speaker 3: the way, I just contacted my friend for the first
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  Speaker 3: time since that happened. I contacted him and told him
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  Speaker 3: what his father did to me. It was bizarre. It
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  Speaker 3: was like three weeks ago. It's the most awkward thing
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  Speaker 3: in the world to call someone and say, hey, I
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  Speaker 3: just want to let you know your dad sexually abused me.
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  Speaker 3: But he seemed he seemed pretty shocked. But anyway, so
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  Speaker 3: I was thinking about how I've never really dealt with
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  Speaker 3: the sexual abuse. I mean, I've at my church, I've
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  Speaker 3: talked to my elders and pastors. They prayed over me
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  Speaker 3: about this many many times, but I've never it just
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  Speaker 3: felt like it was this thing that I never really
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  Speaker 3: tackled and so one day I was watching a YouTube
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  Speaker 3: video and it was your father was doctor Nicolosi Senior
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  Speaker 3: was on and what he said in that video resonated
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  Speaker 3: with me so much. I just was like, what is
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  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, like he's reading my mail. He's reading
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  Speaker 3: my childhood, like every part of it. And and so
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  Speaker 3: I thought, So I looked him up, and I thought,
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  Speaker 3: is he still alive? And I saw that he had passed.
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  Speaker 3: And then I saw that you took over his practice,
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  Speaker 3: and so I so I looked you up, and I
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  Speaker 3: was like, oh, he must be in like the South
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  Speaker 3: somewhere or like, I don't know, he's not in California.
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  Speaker 1: You know, obviously you couldn't be in California.
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  Speaker 3: And then I found out you were in that West
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  Speaker 3: Lake or a thousand Oaks and which is forty five
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  Speaker 3: minutes from me and I and so I pulled up
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  Speaker 3: your phone number and I was gonna call you to
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  Speaker 3: make to kind of set up an appointment to talk
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  Speaker 3: and uh, and then I didn't.
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  Speaker 1: I ended up not calling you.
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  Speaker 3: But then three weeks later I get an email and
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  Speaker 3: it's from you. I had never contacted you, I had
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  Speaker 3: never called you. But suddenly there's an email from you,
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  Speaker 3: and you were it was.
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  Speaker 1: It was an email asking about my show. And anyway,
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  Speaker 1: it was so bizarre.
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  Speaker 3: I was like, what, wait a minute, this is crazy.
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  Speaker 3: And I called you immediately. I was like, this is insane.
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  Speaker 3: I was, I was gonna call you. And so anyway,
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  Speaker 3: we ended up. I ended up seeing doctor Nicolosi for
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  Speaker 3: I don't know how long, like a year and once
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  Speaker 3: a week for two sessions a week, and and we
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  Speaker 3: we we tackled this issue that tried the child abuse, uh,
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  Speaker 3: the sexual trauma blah blah blah, and and.
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  Speaker 1: It and we we got in.
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  Speaker 3: So much more happened, which I'm gonna give into later.
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  Speaker 3: But one of the things that was fascinating to me
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  Speaker 3: when I found out that my mother had been praying
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  Speaker 3: for me for many, many, many years, and I my
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  Speaker 3: sister in law sent me her prayer, her typed prayer
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: to God. One of the points on this prayer, on
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: this prayer for Beckett, it's called a prayer for Beckett,
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  Speaker 3: is in your tender mercy, Holy Spirit of God Almighty,
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  Speaker 3: give Beckett right Christian a rite, Christian psychologists or doctors.
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  Speaker 1: So anyway, that was one of my by So that
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  Speaker 1: was that prayer was answered.
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  Speaker 3: And also I didn't know this, and I told you,
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  Speaker 3: Joseph recently this My sister Mary and I were on
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  Speaker 3: the phone and we were talking about you, and she said, oh, back,
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  Speaker 3: don't don't you remember in the nineties the mom and
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  Speaker 3: dad were trying to get you to go see doctor
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  Speaker 3: Joseph Nicolosi Senior.
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  Speaker 1: And I was like, what, I totally like block.
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  Speaker 3: That out of my mind, Like in nineteen ninety two
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  Speaker 3: they were trying to get me to see.
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  Speaker 6: Your dad, and I completely forgot about that, and I
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  Speaker 6: was like, oh my God, Like so anyway, it took
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  Speaker 6: a generation, but I so my mother's prayer was answered.
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  Speaker 3: And so anyway, I just wanted to get that out there.
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  Speaker 3: So we said, so people understand why I even initiated
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  Speaker 3: this whole situation with going to see you for for
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  Speaker 3: help on this.
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  Speaker 1: But and well we'll get to we'll get to.
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  Speaker 3: There were two times in your office, and you may
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  Speaker 3: remember that, but there were two times during sessions where I,
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  Speaker 3: through this method that we worked on, I actually felt
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  Speaker 3: one hundred percent heterosexual like and I felt for the
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  Speaker 3: first time in my adult life or even since I
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  Speaker 3: was a young child, I felt what it was like
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  Speaker 3: to be heterosexual, and it was so such a crazy feeling.
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  Speaker 3: And it also it just it made me feel like,
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  Speaker 3: I can't believe that I've been robbed of a wife
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  Speaker 3: and kids because of this like crazy evil thing that happened.
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  Speaker 1: But also it just it just and in the the
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  Speaker 1: that feeling.
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  Speaker 3: Of heterosexuality lasted like two or three days and then
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  Speaker 3: it kind of faded out, but it it was definitely there.
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  Speaker 3: And you say, Joseph, that you told me I think
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  Speaker 3: on the first day that that heterosexuality isn't necessarily the goal,
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  Speaker 3: but it could be a byproduct. Can you explain that
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  Speaker 3: just briefly before we go further.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, So to step back, So, I'm doing what's called
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  Speaker 7: reintegrated therapy, and the sexual attractions are the byproduct, not
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  Speaker 7: the goal.
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  Speaker 4: We treat trauma.
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  Speaker 7: And in the exercise that you were describing, we were
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  Speaker 7: helping you to stay in what's called a secure attachment style,
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  Speaker 7: stay connected, connected to yourself, the feelings that are within you,
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  Speaker 7: grounded in yourself and your masculinity, while imagining relating to
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  Speaker 7: a woman and just see what happens. To see what
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  Speaker 7: happens and that shift of feelings towards her it was
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  Speaker 7: a byproduct of really of doing that. And this is
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  Speaker 7: a little segue right here, but we train therapy in
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  Speaker 7: the therapists in this We just did a class we
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  Speaker 7: did We trained sixteen therapists in our basic training class.
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  Speaker 7: And something that I am passionate about is taking these techniques,
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  Speaker 7: publishing them in peer reviewed literature, and then training therapists
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  Speaker 7: to do it so that this is information that's available.
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  Speaker 7: No one's getting this in their graduate schools. We want
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  Speaker 7: this information to be available to the public. So, yes,
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  Speaker 7: there are ways that sexual attractions can shift. It is
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  Speaker 7: a byproduct sexual abuse memories. We do trauma treatment on
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  Speaker 7: the sexual abuse memories and the sexual arousal. The feelings
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  Speaker 7: often shift on their own. So that is what I
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  Speaker 7: am passionate about. I could talk all day about that.
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  Speaker 7: That to me is exciting how the branw wires itself.
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  Speaker 7: And that's what we were doing with you.
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  Speaker 1: Well. One of the biggest things that.
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  Speaker 3: I was kind of a lightning, a light bulb moment
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  Speaker 3: for me in your therapy was the concept of eroticized envy.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, that.
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  Speaker 3: Really helped me understand what was going on beneath, beneath,
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  Speaker 3: beneath beneath, and so can you explain what eroticized envy is?
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  Speaker 4: Yes?
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  Speaker 7: So my actually I want to I'm go back a
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  Speaker 7: little bit. One hundred and fifteen years ago, Okay, Sigmund
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  Speaker 7: Freud wrote a book calls a Psychosexual Analysis of Leonardo
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  Speaker 7: da Vinci one hundred and fifteen years old, and in
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  Speaker 7: this he said he'd only treat a small number of
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  Speaker 7: men with same sex attractions. He said they tend to
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  Speaker 7: have distant, critical relationships with their fathers, intrusive, immeshed experiences
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  Speaker 7: with their mothers, and that these men were sexually attracted
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  Speaker 7: to the specific features of other men that were the
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  Speaker 7: same features that they felt they were lacking within themselves.
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  Speaker 7: And since then there's an entire body of psychological literature
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  Speaker 7: which has since been like covered over many study after
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  Speaker 7: study say showing that men with same sex attractions, when
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  Speaker 7: you go into the same sex attraction, they are actually
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  Speaker 7: it's like in the psychoanalysts would say, it's a roticized envy.
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  Speaker 4: That's all. It is.
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  Speaker 7: That these are men who say, Wow, this man is
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  Speaker 7: the walking embodiment of everything I wish I was. He's
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  Speaker 7: the shocking reminder of all that I believe I should be,
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  Speaker 7: but I am not. And there's an envy component there.
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  Speaker 7: If I can't be it, I got to have it,
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  Speaker 7: and that that is a driving factor. And many, many
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  Speaker 7: people have noticed this. In fact, at the risk of
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  Speaker 7: being a little dramatic here, I just want to show
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  Speaker 7: the two of you something I looked into the literature,
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  Speaker 7: because I learned nothing about this in my graduate school training.
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  Speaker 7: You're not going to find any information about this. I
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  Speaker 7: looked up how many published studies show male same sex
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  Speaker 7: attraction is linked to distancritical relationship with the father over
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  Speaker 7: involved in mes relationship with the mother, and that men
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  Speaker 7: with same sex attractions are eroticizing the very things that
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  Speaker 7: they wish they had but they feel like they don't have.
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  Speaker 7: And this took a very long period of time. This
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  Speaker 7: is it. I'm not making this up. This is a scroll.
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  Speaker 7: What you're about to see is a scroll. Okay, I
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  Speaker 7: had this printed at the printer down the street. Everything
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  Speaker 7: about to show you is from a doctoral dissertation, a
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  Speaker 7: medical journal article, or from the psychological literature, or a
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  Speaker 7: direct case report in an academic book. Ready, this is
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  Speaker 7: the number of citations.
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  Speaker 4: This is it.
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  Speaker 7: It just goes on and on and on and on
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  Speaker 7: and on. This is all stuff that's being covered over.
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  Speaker 7: This is all These are all real studies. This is
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  Speaker 7: twelve pages all PA. Every If anybody doubts what I'm saying,
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  Speaker 7: go to Reintegrate therapy dot com.
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  Speaker 4: We're about to.
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  Speaker 7: Release a video on this on our Twitter feed and
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  Speaker 7: we're going to show all of these references. It's a
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  Speaker 7: it's all of this information has been covered over by
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  Speaker 7: a by an avalanche of political forces to suppress it.
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  Speaker 7: The data is there, the information is there, and when
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  Speaker 7: men see, oh, I'm attracted to the very things I
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  Speaker 7: wish I don't, and that my same sex attractions are
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  Speaker 7: a state and not a trait, that's very important. My
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  Speaker 7: clients will say to me. When I feel more inadequate,
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  Speaker 7: when I don't like my body, when i feel like
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  Speaker 7: I'm not confident in myself, when I'm not relaxed in myself,
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  Speaker 7: and then a good looking guy walks by and he
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  Speaker 7: has all those features, I feel a much stronger attraction
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  Speaker 7: toward him. And now on the other days, when I'm
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  Speaker 7: feeling more relaxed in myself, I'm not self conscious, I'm
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  Speaker 7: not second guessing everything I say, And another guy walks
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  Speaker 7: by and he has those characteristics, the jolt is much smaller.
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  Speaker 7: So that is an important distinction. We are being told
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  Speaker 7: that these attractions are a trait, they're an immutable characteristics.
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  Speaker 7: They're they're who you are or who you will always be.
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  Speaker 7: You should create an entire identity around it. You should
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  Speaker 7: even change your theology to base yourself around this. When
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: people start seeing, wait, this is a state and not
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  Speaker 7: a trait, the entire structure begins to unravel.
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  Speaker 3: And by the way, you say reintegrated. You call it
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  Speaker 3: reintegrative therapy. Why why don't you call it repairative therapy
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  Speaker 3: or conversion therapy for example.
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  Speaker 7: Okay, so I know there's all these different terms because
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  Speaker 7: the goal is not to convert anybody to anything different.
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  Speaker 7: The goal is to help you connect to different parts
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  Speaker 7: of yourself that you are at odds with, and that's
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  Speaker 7: what we're doing. And the sexual attractions are a byproduct.
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  Speaker 7: And by the way, we use the exact same techniques
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  Speaker 7: for a heterosexual. If a heterosexual was feeling had unwanted
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  Speaker 7: sexual attractions, let's say sexually compulsive behavior like pornography, addiction
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  Speaker 7: or something like that, we'd use the exact same techniques.
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  Speaker 7: So that's really the purpose behind the name.
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  Speaker 3: And one thing we've never really discussed, Joseph is because
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  Speaker 3: you work almost exclusively, I think with men, what about
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  Speaker 3: women who have same sex attraction?
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  Speaker 7: So eventually we're going to start to do a training
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  Speaker 7: on that we have. I believe that women are probably
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  Speaker 7: a little better suited in most instances to working with
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  Speaker 7: the female therapist if they have unwanted female.
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  Speaker 4: Same sex attractions.
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  Speaker 7: I'm not going to say it's one hundred percent always,
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  Speaker 7: but there are certainly benefits to that.
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  Speaker 4: And so we just finished.
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  Speaker 7: Our first training basic training course, No, not our first
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  Speaker 7: which we just compare our largest basic training course with
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  Speaker 7: sixteen therapists, a few of them are women, and they're
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  Speaker 7: going to start to do these techniques with women with
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  Speaker 7: unwanted same sex attractions. So the answer is that there
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  Speaker 7: it is a different dynamic. I believe in the development
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  Speaker 7: of same sex attractions for women versus men. With men,
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  Speaker 7: it's very it's a more simple, reliable, predictable model. With women,
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  Speaker 7: there's a greater degree of variation if people are.
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  Speaker 1: Generally what's the generally what's the cause?
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  Speaker 4: For women?
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, like all things feminine, it's more complicated. So you
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  Speaker 7: want it's gonna take me some time. I'll do it,
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  Speaker 7: but it's gonna take time, okay. Is it is thought,
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  Speaker 7: and I'm not an expert in this, it is thought
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  Speaker 7: that there are three basic patterns and one pseudo pattern
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  Speaker 7: the suit. Let me get to the pseudo pattern very simple.
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  Speaker 7: A woman who had heterosexual attractions then had an adverse
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  Speaker 7: experience with the men she was sexually abused or raped
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  Speaker 7: or something, and for a temporary period of time she
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  Speaker 7: gravitates toward women and usually those relationships are not very sexual,
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  Speaker 7: but then and then she goes back to being attracted
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  Speaker 7: to men. So that's like the pseudo pattern. But there
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  Speaker 7: are other patterns that we see, and for those interested
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  Speaker 7: who want to get a much deeper dive, there are
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  Speaker 7: great resources on this. One of them is by a
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  Speaker 7: women named Janelle Hallman who wrote a book called The
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  Speaker 7: Heart of Female Same Sex Attractions. But so we will see,
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  Speaker 7: I mean, we're gonna go non PC here. So if
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  Speaker 7: you ask me the question, and let's just go for
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  Speaker 7: many women who are the more masculine, much more overtly
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  Speaker 7: masculine type what they will often describe as childhood. In fact,
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  Speaker 7: I'll give a public example of a Christian woman who's
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  Speaker 7: dealt with this. Her name is Christine Sneeringer. She's been
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  Speaker 7: on another podcasts and you can listen to her childhood experience.
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  Speaker 7: But we're seeing childhood abuse between the mother and the father,
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  Speaker 7: and the girl is trying to make her gender identity
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  Speaker 7: apart her. She's trying and macurgender a part of her identity.
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  Speaker 4: That's the site.
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  Speaker 7: That's one of the psychological tasks of the child. And
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  Speaker 7: in some situations where there's abuse going on, the girl
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  Speaker 7: will look at the father, look at the mother and say,
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  Speaker 7: if that's what it means to be a woman, I
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  Speaker 7: want nothing to do with that.
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  Speaker 4: I'm going to be like him.
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  Speaker 7: I detach from her and disidentify from her, and I'll
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  Speaker 7: make an attachment toward him, and imitative behaviors begin to follow,
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  Speaker 7: and they want nothing. They disavow anything about femininity because
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  Speaker 7: femininity is scary and dangerous. So that's one type that
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  Speaker 7: we see, and they associate femininity often with weakness or danger.
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  Speaker 7: I rarely treat women with one of the same sex attractions,
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  Speaker 7: but I can think of one woman in my practice.
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  Speaker 7: She had a mother who she longed for connection with
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  Speaker 7: from an early age, and the mother was had like
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  Speaker 7: nine other children, and this girl felt like her mother's
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  Speaker 7: attention and nurturance were always out of reach, and she
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  Speaker 7: felt an anger toward her mother, turning away from her mother,
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  Speaker 7: and later on during periods of stress, during periods of loneliness,
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  Speaker 7: she would have fantasies about women, and the fantasies were
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  Speaker 7: always in the theme of getting nurturance in closeness, and
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  Speaker 7: she was attracted toward younger women who she projected her
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  Speaker 7: own younger self onto, and she wanted to give the
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  Speaker 7: nurturingths to that she never got. So there are different
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  Speaker 7: variations of this, and it's not the simple causal pattern
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  Speaker 7: that we see. It's more predictable with the male, where
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  Speaker 7: we see distant, critical father, more intrusive mother, and the
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  Speaker 7: boys more sensitive temperamentally, that's more consistent. With women, it's different,
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  Speaker 7: and we see more flexibility in women's sexual attractions. We
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  Speaker 7: can see them much more often saying, hey, for five years,
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  Speaker 7: I was totally happy being in this relationship with a man,
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  Speaker 7: and then it shifted and I was attracted to a woman,
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  Speaker 7: and then that it's kind of like relationships specific and
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  Speaker 7: then and now I'm attracted to this man. So there
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  Speaker 7: are differences in the arousal patterns even in the brain
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  Speaker 7: between men and women that causes So it's more women's
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  Speaker 7: sexuality is more context and relational specific.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I've talked about this before, but I
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: had a lot of girlfriends who from Brown Universit who
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: went to Brown, and they it was funny because like
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: there were five of them that were lesbians at Brown,
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: but once they graduated, they ended up dating guys and
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: now they're all married to men. So it was kind
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: of like this weird I guess college experiment. But Rosaria
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: what I mean, if you don't mind, like, what do
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: you what Joseph just said, where do you think?
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: What was your experience as a child.
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's so funny because when I said
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: earlier that this is a podcast with the three of
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: us is where all friendships go to die, Now you're
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: gonna know what I mean because I really don't identify
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: with that. Even when I hear Joseph talk about eroticized envy.
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: I mean, envy is one of the worst sins in
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: the Bible. And so my you know my immediate question,
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: and I will answer your question about where I think
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: my homosexuality came from I will answer that question, although
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that question, but
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: it does. I'm wondering about the recidivism if I, if
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: I could act, I mean, and maybe we haven't studied
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: this long enough to even know, But as a Christian,
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: my my dealing with my homosexuality came with the Gospel,
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: and with the Gospel came not only the hope of
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: not only being cleansed from the guilt of my sin,
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: but the promise that there was hope in being delivered
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: from the bondage of my patterns and my lust and
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: my compulsions. But I'm wondering if we're talking exclusively about
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: and maybe we're not, Joseph, you can correct me, but
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: if we're talking about a Freudian paradigm, and we're going
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: to analyze my you know, my same sex attraction, my
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: homosexuality as being a virtue of my childhood exclusively, where
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: does repentance fit in here? Because here's what I believe.
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: I don't believe anybody is going to go to hell
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: because they lacked therapy, but I'm pretty confident everybody is
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: going to go to hell if they lack repentance. A
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: Christian household. I don't praise God for that. I wish
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: I was raised in a Christian household. I was not
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: raised in a household where there was a healthy set
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: of boundaries modesty or decency. But I was not sexually abused,
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: and so far, I was never I was never raped
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: as a child. There was certainly things in my household
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: that no Christian would want in their household. And and
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: you know, my own father was pretty absent and incompetent,
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: and my own mother was pretty angry and controlling. So
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: I don't know, you can you can work with that
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: as you as you will. But you know, in college,
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: I didn't go to Brown. I went to you know,
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: a Christians Well, actually I was. It was a Lutheran
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: school in Ohio, mostly because I was a music major
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: and I was there for the music department. But I
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: did date men in college and then after college is when,
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: and and of course throughout throughout it I had people saying,
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: you know, are you sure you're not a lesbian? And
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: while I was dating men, you know, I was having
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: this uncomfortable experience of like dating a men, a man,
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: and enjoying the attention and the dinner dates and just
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: kind of all of a sudden, kind of sort of
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: being one of the cool kids, but then secretly privately
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: falling in love with a woman while that was happening.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: And it really wasn't until I graduated college and got
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: to graduate school that I felt, I think safe to
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: just say, well, yeah, I'm a lesbian and that's where
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: we're going to go with this. And it was true
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: that when I after my first sexual encounter with a woman,
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: I just thought, well, this is just who I am,
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: so very much as you were saying, instead of a trait.
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: I believe, you know, I believed it was almost an
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: ontological part of who I was. But it wasn't really
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: for me until I heard the Gospel for the first time,
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: and that was not until I was thirty six years old.
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: So there was, you know, some water under the bridge there.
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: And it was specifically in hearing about Romans one and
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: Genesis one. It was learning that homosexuality is a suppression
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: of the truth in unrighteousness. Well, I thought I was
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: living my truth right, I mean, it was very strange.
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: But then in Genesis one is where I learned that
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: no God created only two kinds of people, men and women.
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: There's no such thing as a gay man or a
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: lesbian woman. That's not a that's not a thing. It's
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: not an ontological thing. And I remember, you know, during
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: that time reading the Bible, and I was reading the
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: Bible because I was trying to critique it, right, I
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: wasn't And you know, and I was meeting with Ken
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: Smith and Floyd Smith because I thought they were in
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: my unpaid research assistance for my post tenure book. I'm
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: basically trying to figure out why people like evangelical Christians,
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: that is, like people like the people we've all become,
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: wanted me to change what you know, Why couldn't you
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: just keep your keep your Bible off my body?
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: You know? But but it was in realizing that if
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: God was wholly, an authoritative, and good, then his construction
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: of male and female was purposeful, not accidental. So God
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: isn't some kind of like a crazy engineer that builds
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: a bridge and it falls into a lake, and you know,
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: he made male and female for a purpose. And truly
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: I just had to look at my body to come
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: up with that, Like I didn't have to have much
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: more than just looking at my body to see that
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: that was true, and so when I was converted, I
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: did have a desire to be a godly woman. And
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: that was a really strange I mean, I laughed out
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: loud the first time I like even secretly prayed that
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: prayer because I've always been a jock. I've you know,
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: I don't know, like it just was hardly feminine, was
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: not And even today I will tell you that feminine
• 26:04
  Speaker 5: doesn't come naturally. I'm the kind of woman who needs
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: a uniform, you know. And if I if I if
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: I go out to Costco without my uniform and I
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, I'm like, ah,
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: I'm popping out again, you know. So so I do
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: think those you know, so those are those are tender issues.
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: But you know, the beautiful thing about repentance, and again
• 26:29
  Speaker 5: I this is not saying that people who are traumatized
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: only need repentance, But for me, the beautiful thing about
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: repentance is that it it was life changing, it was
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: hope changing, and it made me realize that part of
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: my obedience to the Lord involved me actually being a woman.
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: That I'm going to be a woman for a turn.
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: Even my soul is the soul of a woman, and
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: so that is that was that was a non negotiable.
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: But there was a lot of pride in my lesbianism.
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: And I would say one of the things that that
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: I was thinking about on a long run. I was
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: a professor at the time at Syracuse teaching a queer
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: theory class, and and I remember on this long run
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: thinking to myself, is it possible? Because I was working
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: through Plato and Aristotle and categories of real and true
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: and the differences in continental philosophy, and you know, I
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: was thinking to myself, is it true that my lesbianism
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: is real? It's just not true? And it was. It
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: was things like that that really broke I think broke
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: my pride, and then of course really meeting the Lord
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: and realizing that you know, this whole time because I
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: wasn't a why at lesbian. I wasn't the nice lesbian
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: next door with her golden retriever and her garden. I
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: was also a political activist. I was also testifying before
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: the New York Legislature and working on behalf of a
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: number of LGBT causes. AIDS activism was one of them.
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: It was the nineties in New York, gay marriage was another.
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: Although I thought gay marriage was hilarious. I mean, I
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: remember saying, I'm doing this for its political purposes, but
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: there's nothing gay of being married, you know. But if
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: these if these dupes want to go for it, okay,
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: we'll go for it. But you know, I remember when
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: I first really did meet the Lord, I realized that
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: that whole time, you know, all my political activism, all
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: my you know, teaching thousands of college students to despise
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: the Bible, to mockt all of that thinking the whole
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: time I was on the right side of history and
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: social justice, that it was actually Jesus I had been
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: persueing the whole time, and it wasn't. It wasn't just
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: you know, some historical figure named Jesus or like some good, good,
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: good man named Jesus. But but my savior, my Lord.
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: It was very personal. And so for me, my ability
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: to both understand my my my lesbianism and then and
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: then leave it. For me, that road really was repentance
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: and faith. But the trauma piece is not part of
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: my story. And so that's where I wanted to just
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: part of why I was excited to come on this
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: podcast with both of you dear brothers, is that one
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: of the dangers of creating a theology out of your
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: own experience is that you kill other people without realizing it.
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: You deny them a little bit of their own story.
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: You maybe maybe you shame them into not thinking they
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: have the right to say. But that didn't that wasn't
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: it for me. And so we create our theology out
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: of the Bible. That's that's where my theology comes from.
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: And then I'm a I'm a I'm a confessional reformed Christian.
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: I am like the opposite of ecumenical. I'm not even
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: ecumenical on Tuesdays, you know. Like for me, it's it's
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: the it's it's it's it's the creeds and the confessions
• 30:29
  Speaker 5: that have really shaped informed me. But it's not always
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: about me, now, is it. It's about Jesus. It's about
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: the way that God has made every single human being
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: in his image. And it's the sad and hard reality
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: that you can be both a sinner and sinned against
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: And when you're trying to untangle that, you might need
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: more help than the help I needed. And I don't
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: want to deny anybody that I spent too many years
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: railing against It was called repairative therapy then so repair
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: itive therapy, and that was a sin. And so I
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: wrote an article like it was twenty fourteen, and I said,
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: this is false teaching, and you know, nobody should use it.
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: And then I think it was twenty twenty two. Beckett,
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: you and I were talking about this, because you were
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: very helpful for me in kind of thinking through this.
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: I ended up just, you know, making a public repentance
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: for saying that, because in doing that I heard a
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: lot of people, including Beckett, including my brother Beckett, whom
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: I love, I would hate. I would never want to
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: hurt you. I would never want to deny you the
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: counseling that you need. And yet that is the effect
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: of what my words in twenty fourteen did.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I Joseph, I don't want to I mean,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I don't want to theologize this experience or experiences of men.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: But Joseph, would you say that, for lack of better terminology,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: would you say that in men it's more hardwired than
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: in women.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: It's it's more, there's probably less sexual attractions, probably shift
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: less easily for men than for women. That's probably true,
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: it's less context specific. There was one study looked at
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: brain scans of men and men with same sex attractions.
• 32:34
  Speaker 7: Actually know this study that I'll reference. It was looking
• 32:36
  Speaker 7: at males and females, just looking at whatever was arousing
• 32:40
  Speaker 7: to them, and the connections between the pleasure pathways and
• 32:43
  Speaker 7: the occipital lobe, which is visual is five hundred percent
• 32:46
  Speaker 7: greater in the men than in the women. Like men
• 32:49
  Speaker 7: are very, very, very visual, and that may be another
• 32:51
  Speaker 7: reason why it's there's a They're not as fluid, it's
• 32:56
  Speaker 7: not as context and not as relational specific. So to
• 32:59
  Speaker 7: answer your I think, yeah, that it does take more
• 33:02
  Speaker 7: work with Matt generally.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, So Rosaria, what do you think about that comment?
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: It makes perfect sense. And Beckett, you and I have
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: been in this on the front line of this conversation
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: for enough years that everything we see bears that out
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: as well. I was wondering, I mean, it's it always
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: seemed to me that because women's sexuality tends to be
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: responsive rather than initiative, I've always thought it was just
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: in some ways, I don't you know, easier for me.
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: I was on a on a panel discussion with my
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: dear friend Kevin DeYoung, and he's he just kind of
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: pulled up a you know, just let me check Twitter
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: and see what people are saying about Rosaria today. Oh,
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: you're kind of a faker, You're you know, like it's just,
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: you know, you had it. You had it easy. You
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: had it easy. You were only a lesbian for a
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: decade and you know, you change. You know, it's just
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: you weren't kind of a real lesbian because you weren't
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: there long enough. And and you know, and the first
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: thing I thought when he said you had it easy
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: is I did after I was converted. I mean I was.
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: I was married to Kent Butterfield two years after I
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: was converted, and he is a wonderful, godly, gentle, kind,
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: helpful man. I don't know where I would be if
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: it weren't for Kent. Now, that's a very politically incorrect
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: thing to say, right, because what I'm actually saying is
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: the thing that helped me the most after my conversion
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: to the Lord Jesus Christ is being married to a
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: godly man. Now that sounds like I'm saying the opposite
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: of what Joseph was saying. Like, okay, and I'm not.
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: I mean, I'm not saying the answer to homosexuality is
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: heterosexual marriage. As a pastor's wife who does a lot
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: of you know, marriage counseling with my husband, I don't
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: want to add to my lot to that. You don't
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: use marriage to resolve the problems that you need to confront,
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: either in your life of sin or your your trauma
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: in your past, or both. But how would I know
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: myself as a woman if I weren't a wife and
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: a mother and a grandmother. It's I can't untangle that.
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: And maybe that's what Joseph's talking about when it comes
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: to fluidity, relationality, and the general complexity of women exactly.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: Okay, And and Joseph, I mean, what is the correlation
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: between especially because you work with men mostly, but between
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: childhood sexual abuse and.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Homosexuality? What's the correlation?
• 35:52
  Speaker 7: So is there is a correlation. There are numerous studies
• 35:55
  Speaker 7: that have shown this. This is a book here. I
• 35:57
  Speaker 7: had a feeling you to ask me these question, so
• 35:58
  Speaker 7: I have the book at the ready. This is the
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: handbook of the American Psychological Association, their handbook on Sexuality
• 36:04
  Speaker 7: and psychology. And the American Psychological Association has said when
• 36:09
  Speaker 7: I go to the I do state.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: When I speak in different.
• 36:13
  Speaker 7: State, legislative meetings, the APA will come up, a representative
• 36:17
  Speaker 7: from the American Psychological Association will come up and say
• 36:20
  Speaker 7: to the lawmakers, there's no connection between childhood sexual abuse
• 36:24
  Speaker 7: and same sex partnering. There's no data on that whatsoever.
• 36:27
  Speaker 7: So I have to remind them it's in their own handbook.
• 36:29
  Speaker 7: Their own handbook admits that there is a link between
• 36:33
  Speaker 7: childhood sexual abuse and same sex partnering and in certain instances,
• 36:38
  Speaker 7: and that finding was based in part on literature that
• 36:43
  Speaker 7: was included a thirty year longitudinal study of documented sex
• 36:46
  Speaker 7: abuse victims. So, yes, there is a link. Is it
• 36:49
  Speaker 7: an absolute link, No, of course not, but there is
• 36:51
  Speaker 7: definitely an association in many cases.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: What percentage of your would you say, of your clients
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: or patients have experienced childhood sexual abuse?
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: One third?
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, one third? So it's pretty strong. Yeah. So, And
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I mean it's funny.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Because I I've.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Talked about this before, but.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: As when I was living as a gay man, I
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: completely denied any that that that sexual trauma as a
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: child had anything to do with my sexuality because I
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: didn't want to conflate those two things. Because yeah, so
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: I I just just completely dismissed that whole thing, which
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: is ridiculous but.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: So bizarre.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: You say that another kind of pushback on this kind
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: on that before before the you repented of this, or
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: one of the other pushbacks on this kind on RT
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Let's call it is the blame shifting away from repentance.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: It is especially as it involves dunking on parents. Now,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: how do you feel about what Joseph said about the
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: mother and father situation and the child.
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: No. I just think what Joseph said is absolutely practically
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: true in everybody's experience. And I think the other part
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: that I really appreciated that Joseph just said is that
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: it's not that those households produce one hundred percent people
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: who will call themselves gay, but they do produce people
• 38:31
  Speaker 5: who have things they're going to have to work through, right,
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: I mean, like that's not going to go away. But
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: what is true and you know this just from being
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: in a large family with a number of children. Even
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: though you had the same mother and father, each child
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: is going to interpret the household differently and interpret the
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: pressure of the arguing between the parents or the dynamics
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: between the siblings. And so there's again, you know, we
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: are fearfully and one or fully made. We are uniquely
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: image bearers of a holy God, with a unique set
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: of of of of capacity to to be hurt and
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: to give and to grow and all of that. So
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: I think, I think that makes perfect sense. You know,
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: I was I was speaking at an event. It was
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: probably a year ago now, and it was a strange
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: It was a strange event for me. It was a
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: church camp with a kind of a liberal denomination. And
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: I got there with a sense that this is like
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: a you know, like a bad first date, you know
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: what I mean. And then I was there for a week. Right,
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: You're like, oh, we thought we knew you. Oh, we
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: have to get through dinner now. But you know, at
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: one point going through I was going through the book
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: The Five Lives of our Anti Christian Age, and you know,
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: one of the realities for many of us who were
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: lesbian or gay and then came out is we realized
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: that we put together a constellation of things about our
• 39:56
  Speaker 5: life and then we believed lies. You know, I believed
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: I would that's a lie. I believed a lie, and
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: I believed a lie because of the way I put
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: together parts. And so I was talking about this and
• 40:08
  Speaker 5: I had a guy stand up and he's like a
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: football player guy, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: have it now. And he just burst into tears and says,
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: I was sexually abused when I was, you know, and
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: it was it was a prepubestentce so I was, you know,
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: maybe ten years old, and I have never gotten over it.
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: And I've been in this you know, kind of denomination
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: and it's you know, run by run by women, like
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: you know, Pastor Barbara is every third pastor and you know,
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: you must be a feminist and you must run your
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: rainbow flag, and you must you must think drag Queen
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: Story Hour is great, and you must not have any
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: visceral reaction to the to what sodomy actually is, Like
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: you're never supposed to say sodomy. You're supposed to say SSA.
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: Like we work for the FBI. We don't even know
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: what it means anymore. And he said, I just can't
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: do it anymore. I have a visceral reaction and I've
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: never dealt with it. And you know I've you and
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: I both Beckett, we've fielded a lot of Q and
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: as we've been in a lot of hot seats we've
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: dealt with the secular press. I was other than I mean,
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: I was just completely stymied. I've never had that happen,
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: but it happened in part because trauma doesn't stay put.
• 41:24
  Speaker 5: And that's what I've come to realize that people cannot
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: sublimate it. And unlike sin, unlike indwelling sin. So a
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: lot of my homosexuality was motivated by indwelling sin. Right,
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: we are fallen in Adam Adam thumb prints you in
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: certain ways definitely corresponded with a great deal of cultural issues.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: But you know, like me being more more masculine when
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: I was younger, and you know, those kinds of things.
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: But it was my sin to repent of. But what
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: would I do if it was somebody else's sin that
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: that launched this thing inside me that now is my sin?
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: How do I untangle that repentance? And that's where I
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: started to realize that I wasn't sure about this whole
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: reparative therapy thing or the reintegrative therapy thing. And I wasn't,
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: But here's what I was sure about. People have the
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: right to get the help they need and not have
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: like you know, the cool kids in Christianity, say you
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: can't go there? You know, why can't we go there?
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: One of the things that I really appreciate. Just if
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: I don't remember if you said this to me in
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: a text message or something else, but you know, free
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: thinking people aren't afraid to think about things. They're not
• 42:47
  Speaker 5: afraid to think about things that other people don't like
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: to think about. And I agree one hundred percent with that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: When I was an unbeliever, I had a little stick
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: them on my desk that said, I'd rather be right
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: on an important point than I'm sorry. I'd rather be
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: wrong on an important point wrong. I'd rather be wrong.
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: I'd rather be wrong on something that's important than right
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: on a trivial point. You know, I like, who cares?
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: You know?
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: So?
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: I So that was part of my own sense that
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: I wasn't sure about this reintegrative therapy. But here's what
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: I was sure about. I had sinned by declaring all
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: of it, you know, no bueno, verbatim, you know nothing
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: you could touch? Why? Why? And then the other thing
• 43:33
  Speaker 5: is I started to realize how my words were being
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: inculcated in some of the anti free speech issues at
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: the political level. Right, I mean, if If Christians are
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: saying reparative therapy is not something Christians should do, then
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: that feeds into the LGBTQ idea that born this way,
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: stay this way, never change, and and and.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: I'll make make it illegal.
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: Entire therapists and do all that. And I'll just go
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: out on a limb and say, I you know, I
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: think I think that homosexual sin is a is a deep,
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: deep sin. It's a dangerous sin. And and I'm not
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: saying that I don't think heterosexual sin is dangerous, but
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: not as much. And here's why. Because a man and
• 44:32
  Speaker 5: a woman in a heterosexually sinful relationship could come to
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: Christ repent of their sin and they have a future.
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: But two men, there's only one thing that you can do.
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: If you are in a gay relationship and you come
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: to Christ, you blow it up. You have to. That's it.
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: And so heterosexuality might be seen more along the lines
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: of God's co and grace. Now do you go to
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: hell with common grace? If that's all you have, that's
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: you go to Hell. But is it a stepping stone?
• 45:09
  Speaker 5: I don't think there's a stepping stone. I believe in
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: the actual conversion that the Bible talks about that the
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: Holy Spirit changes your heart Psalm one O three twelve.
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: As far as the East is from the west, the
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: Lord has put away our sin. Repentance can change your
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: destiny in a moment. But here's what we also believe.
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: We believe as Christians that conversion changes your past as
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: well as your presence and your future. And what I
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: mean by that is it changes your past. And so
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: far as you are a converted person and you now
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: have peace with your past, what if you don't, what
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: if you need help you not get that? Shouldn't that
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: be shouldn't that even be considered part of your repentance paradigm?
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: To have a Christian who is at peace with her
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: present and future, but is not at peace with her past,
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: is still a Christian with a root of bitterness that
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: is growing deep and wide, and it will strangle her.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this short break, So I
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: So I felt like people really helped put things together
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: for me and and other people too. Linda Siler's good friend.
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: She kind of pressed on me at one point and said,
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: didn't you adopt kids out of like foster care? I said, yeah, yeah,
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: we did. Huh would you have denied them therapy for
• 46:33
  Speaker 5: all the trauma they went through? Like, uh no, I wouldn't.
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: That would be criminal. So yeah, you know, so there
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: we are, right, So you and I, you and I
• 46:51
  Speaker 5: lived through all kinds of things back at that was
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: one of them.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean with Joseph, other than the kind
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: of concept of eroticized envy, which by the way is
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: uh oh well, we'll get to that in a second.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: Why I mean, why gay men in particular are so
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: promiscuous and I Joseph, I think we've talked about. It's
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: just like you're just constantly wanting that male affirmation, that
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: that masculine male affirmation and an affection. So you're just
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: you're just like constantly seeking it out. And what you
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: said was sorry about the the you know, the other
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: benefits of therapy is just for me. With Joseph was
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: just getting this deep, deep understanding of things like eroticized envy,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: things like, oh, this is why gay men are so like,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: this is like they're they're constantly searching for this a father,
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: like a father who never really attached they never attached
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: to and and many other things. But that Joseph was
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: so helpful to me just to understand all the underlying,
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: all the underlying what's the word issues with that?
• 48:17
  Speaker 7: And that might be where the conversation is drifting to
• 48:21
  Speaker 7: a deeper topic, which is, okay, where do you Christians
• 48:25
  Speaker 7: place psychology?
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: Where do we do this?
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: Is?
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: Where do we draw the line? Is there an exact principle?
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: I don't.
• 48:31
  Speaker 7: I am a psychologist and a Christian. I don't even
• 48:33
  Speaker 7: have an exact answer to this. I know that when
• 48:36
  Speaker 7: I was in school to become a psychologist, people from
• 48:40
  Speaker 7: my church were saying, psychology is a big problem. Psychology.
• 48:44
  Speaker 7: The Bible is sufficient. The Bible is sufficient, and so
• 48:46
  Speaker 7: anything beyond the Bible to try to help you with
• 48:49
  Speaker 7: your inner conflict is a sin, and you're taking away
• 48:51
  Speaker 7: from the sufficiency of God. And they put me in
• 48:56
  Speaker 7: a situation by asking me, well, do you think the
• 48:58
  Speaker 7: Bible is sufficient?
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: And I go, I guess, so what am I gonna say? No, Yes,
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: the Bible is sufficient?
• 49:04
  Speaker 7: But then I think, but am I allowed to ask,
• 49:06
  Speaker 7: you know, if should I go outside the Bible for
• 49:09
  Speaker 7: other questions?
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: That is that wrong?
• 49:11
  Speaker 7: And then I have to admit these people are making
• 49:13
  Speaker 7: very the critics of psychology are making very good points
• 49:17
  Speaker 7: like so much of psychology is terrible. It's it's secular humanism,
• 49:22
  Speaker 7: it's Marxism. I mean, the new new new data are
• 49:26
  Speaker 7: showing and if anyone wants to look this up, Abigail
• 49:28
  Speaker 7: Schreier wrote her newest book about therapy, Bad Therapy, How
• 49:32
  Speaker 7: it hurts people, especially young people. The biggest meta analysis
• 49:35
  Speaker 7: came out, and this is I'm not going to surprise
• 49:37
  Speaker 7: anybody on this show, but on affirmative gay affirmative therapy,
• 49:42
  Speaker 7: how it's actually hurting people long term. That came out
• 49:46
  Speaker 7: last week. But in general, so it's it's probably incumbent
• 49:51
  Speaker 7: upon all of us as Christians and every person listening
• 49:53
  Speaker 7: to this right now to say, Okay, where do I
• 49:55
  Speaker 7: honor my Christian faith and where where is do I
• 49:58
  Speaker 7: I don't want to be guilty of throw the baby
• 50:00
  Speaker 7: out with the bathwater, but I also just don't want
• 50:02
  Speaker 7: to receive from my therapist because the therapists are becoming
• 50:06
  Speaker 7: the secular priesthood. This therapists are becoming. The questions that
• 50:09
  Speaker 7: people go to therapists for are what people used to
• 50:12
  Speaker 7: go in the past to their priest or their rabbi.
• 50:14
  Speaker 7: Now they're asking their therapists and like this is so,
• 50:18
  Speaker 7: but there, but there must be something. So what helped
• 50:21
  Speaker 7: me was this And I again, if anyone's looking for
• 50:23
  Speaker 7: a perfect answer, I don't have it. All I can
• 50:24
  Speaker 7: say is this was very helpful to me in navigating
• 50:27
  Speaker 7: this issue, in trying to honor my faith and not
• 50:32
  Speaker 7: be affected by secular humanism. But also gleaned from the
• 50:37
  Speaker 7: power of psychological studies in psychotherapy. There is a some
• 50:42
  Speaker 7: of you may may know this, Greg Cocol ko u
• 50:45
  Speaker 7: k l.
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: Greg Cokele is a Christologist. You know, okay, he.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Wrote, I was on tour. I went on a tour
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: with him and spoke yeah for six months.
• 50:54
  Speaker 7: Don't make this about yourself right now, right, yeah?
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: I love Greg Coco.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: I told you about that in therapy. It's not doing that,
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 51:05
  Speaker 5: Now.
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: You know he has many people. Greg is great and
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: he wrote a book.
• 51:08
  Speaker 7: He wrote an article it's free online called is the
• 51:11
  Speaker 7: Bible Sufficient? So anyone interested is the Bible Sufficient?
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: You google it? Koukl Greg Coco.
• 51:17
  Speaker 7: He goes through this and he parses it out very well,
• 51:19
  Speaker 7: and he makes a very interesting point. He talks about
• 51:22
  Speaker 7: how there are specific verses in the Bible that tell
• 51:24
  Speaker 7: us to go outside of the Bible for wisdom, which
• 51:27
  Speaker 7: is like a complete mind blowing experience for the hardcore
• 51:31
  Speaker 7: biblical counselors. Several a couple of them are in Proverbs.
• 51:36
  Speaker 7: I think one is an Ecclesiastes Proverbs twenty.
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: Four is one of them.
• 51:40
  Speaker 7: So there are examples that cocol goes into it very
• 51:43
  Speaker 7: well and he splices it for those who are interested.
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: But certainly there are two extremes.
• 51:48
  Speaker 7: One is to dump everything every psychological has study has
• 51:51
  Speaker 7: ever said and call it psychobabble. And another one is
• 51:54
  Speaker 7: to just unquestioningly accept what therapists say, and those are
• 51:58
  Speaker 7: both severe errors. We have to slow down, think through
• 52:01
  Speaker 7: this and look at what scripture says and make that
• 52:05
  Speaker 7: a part of our a deeper method in which we
• 52:08
  Speaker 7: understand truth.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead.
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: Could I just add also, I would say Westminster Shorter
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: Catechism number three is really helpful. It says what do
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: the scriptures principally teach? And the answer is the scriptures
• 52:27
  Speaker 5: principally teach what man is to believe concerning God and
• 52:33
  Speaker 5: what duty God requires of man. There are a number
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: of scripture verses, including you know, you know Tewo Timothy
• 52:41
  Speaker 5: that the Word of God is God breathed. But again,
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: when we're talking about that is that is a very
• 52:49
  Speaker 5: comprehensive statement, but it doesn't explain everything. It certainly doesn't
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: explain everything. And so I think to teach rather than
• 53:00
  Speaker 5: to outlaw psychology. I mean, you know, we want I
• 53:04
  Speaker 5: want Christians to take over every single academic field in
• 53:08
  Speaker 5: every single Tier one research university. Okay, like what is rosaria?
• 53:13
  Speaker 5: As you know, lie in bed at night and pray
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: about that's it. I want every single Tier one research university,
• 53:19
  Speaker 5: in every single academic discipline to be run by Christians.
• 53:24
  Speaker 5: And I think it would be amazing. And if that happened,
• 53:27
  Speaker 5: then those Christian practitioners would be teaching all of their
• 53:31
  Speaker 5: students to be like the Brians. And so if you're
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: being like the Brians and you would test what your
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: therapist says, you would immediately be able to know whether
• 53:43
  Speaker 5: you should flee or not. But obviously there's there's a
• 53:49
  Speaker 5: lot of power given to anybody who is going to
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: disciple you. It's not just the psychologist, but anybody who's
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: discipling you, your professor, your dissertation director. That person has
• 54:05
  Speaker 5: a lot of power and you have to be ready.
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: The Christian under that discipling relationship needs to be ready
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: to learn how to be a little bit self defensive
• 54:19
  Speaker 5: and make an exit if you need to.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if you remember this, Joseph, but
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: the first day and I saw you, I asked you directly,
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: I said, now do you I knew you were a Christian,
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: but an evangelical Christian, and I said to you, I
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: asked you, do you believe that this homosexuality is a psychological.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Issue or moral issue? And you said both?
• 54:44
  Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, they're IMPLICATD It's exactly right. Like anything, we're
• 54:49
  Speaker 7: soul and body, so we have the way our brains
• 54:52
  Speaker 7: are wired.
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: And there's a spiritual component.
• 54:55
  Speaker 7: And it's an oversimplification to say anything is all that
• 54:59
  Speaker 7: unwanted sexual tra actions of any kind are simply spiritual
• 55:02
  Speaker 7: issues or simply psychological issues in all cases, In many cases,
• 55:07
  Speaker 7: there's some mix. Maybe it's ninety nine fifty to fifty.
• 55:11
  Speaker 7: It's got to be taken case by case. But yes,
• 55:13
  Speaker 7: I think they're both present.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: And uh, Brazaria, we did. We kind of briefly discussed
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: this the other day. But what are your thoughts? I mean,
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: jose we've talked about this before too, and you don't
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: seem to budge on this issue. But what about because
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: just from experience anecdotally, the hormonal and utero thing.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: Just feels like it's an aspect.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, just Billie Jean and King Martin and Avertilova,
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: like the bone structure. I mean, it's like a it's
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: like a it's like a testosterone issue.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: It's and then gay like there's gay men who were believe.
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: You're going there. We did. We had that. It was
• 55:56
  Speaker 5: a private conversation.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Actually super gay men that right.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: I know you said, but I mean, just what do
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: you what do you say to to that? Because I
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: think there I mean, I I don't know. I just
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: think that that there might be something to the hormonal
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: and utero situation.
• 56:18
  Speaker 7: Yeah, so when it comes to biology, I'm willing to
• 56:20
  Speaker 7: budge a little bit on this. On the biology, however,
• 56:24
  Speaker 7: so I want to so there's a tension here. On
• 56:28
  Speaker 7: one hand, Yes, there's probably a genetic contributor, not a
• 56:31
  Speaker 7: genetic determinant. Some things are determinants. Oh, we have these
• 56:35
  Speaker 7: genes and that's it. That's my eye color period, that's
• 56:38
  Speaker 7: what's gonna happen. Okay, whether you have an extra Y chromosome,
• 56:41
  Speaker 7: that's that determines if you're male or female. Okay, but
• 56:44
  Speaker 7: there are contributors, so there could there be a genetic contributor. Yes,
• 56:47
  Speaker 7: The largest most robust study I've read, looking at genetically
• 56:51
  Speaker 7: identical twins monozygotic twins, finds that if one boy has
• 56:56
  Speaker 7: same sex attractions, then less than one third of the
• 56:59
  Speaker 7: time the other boy will have same sex attractions, which
• 57:02
  Speaker 7: is higher than a random sampling. So yes, there's probably
• 57:06
  Speaker 7: a genetic contributor. However, I want to push back a
• 57:08
  Speaker 7: little bit on the hormonal because the hormonal argument. Now
• 57:12
  Speaker 7: I'm not pushing back, I'm just saying there are limits
• 57:14
  Speaker 7: to the hormonal argument. And here's why, because we see many,
• 57:17
  Speaker 7: actually most cases of boys who are identical twins who
• 57:21
  Speaker 7: are being carried in the same pregnancy, so they're exposed
• 57:25
  Speaker 7: to the exact same hormonal prenatal hormonal environment. Very very
• 57:31
  Speaker 7: often we'll see one with same sex attractions opposite with
• 57:34
  Speaker 7: other the other one with opposite sex attractions, and so
• 57:36
  Speaker 7: the hormonal influence has limitations on it. So I would say, yes,
• 57:40
  Speaker 7: there's probably a genetic connection to it. There is a
• 57:44
  Speaker 7: genetic connection to something called neuroticism, which is a sensitivity
• 57:47
  Speaker 7: to negative emotions. And so men with same sex attractions,
• 57:51
  Speaker 7: and this is in the literature, they have higher levels
• 57:53
  Speaker 7: of neuroticism, a higher level of sensitivity to shame, a
• 57:57
  Speaker 7: higher level of sensitivity to fear, and a higher level
• 57:59
  Speaker 7: of sense nativity to anxiety. That doesn't mean they were
• 58:02
  Speaker 7: born that way and that's a gay gene. It just
• 58:04
  Speaker 7: means if you pair those those that constellation of factors
• 58:08
  Speaker 7: with a particular family, family environment, then yeah, that those
• 58:12
  Speaker 7: those things come together and those that's an additional compounding
• 58:15
  Speaker 7: factor that makes it more difficult for the boy to
• 58:18
  Speaker 7: achieve that sense of gender completedness in himself when he
• 58:22
  Speaker 7: has that higher neuroticism and you have a distant critical
• 58:25
  Speaker 7: relationship with the father. So so it's a constellation of factors.
• 58:28
  Speaker 7: And yes, to go back to your point, Uh you
• 58:32
  Speaker 7: got me, I am I am shifting a little bit
• 58:33
  Speaker 7: on the genetics in that I can't say there's zero
• 58:37
  Speaker 7: genetic contribution, but if I.
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: Can add to this too. I mean, Beckett, when you
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: and I were talking and this is it like I'm
• 58:43
  Speaker 5: never going to be able to have a private conversation
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: with Beckett Cook again. You know it's going to show
• 58:47
  Speaker 5: up on the Cook Show. I'm now I'm going to
• 58:49
  Speaker 5: have to go to therapy. But but that's probably true.
• 58:54
  Speaker 5: But that's a side. But I do think that being
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: willing to talk about this is extremely helpful for the
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: young people who are listening. And here's what I mean that.
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: You know often we will, you know, we will speak
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: biblical truth, and we want to speak biblical truth. We
• 59:14
  Speaker 5: want people to know that we have a savior that
• 59:18
  Speaker 5: not only has paid for the guilt of our sin
• 59:21
  Speaker 5: if we repent and believe in him, but his resurrection
• 59:25
  Speaker 5: delivers us from the bondage of that sin. That is true.
• 59:28
  Speaker 5: And I will take that truth all the way to
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: my grave and then beyond. Praise me to God for that.
• 59:35
  Speaker 5: But people are looking at the world and they're wondering, well,
• 59:38
  Speaker 5: why is it that all the women who call themselves
• 59:41
  Speaker 5: lesbian are on the field hockey team and all the
• 59:44
  Speaker 5: men who call themselves gayer and art history like, what
• 59:47
  Speaker 5: is going on there? Like there's got to be something there.
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: And you could just pretend that you could just be
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: like nothing to look at there, or you could just
• 59:55
  Speaker 5: talk about that. You could talk about the fact that
• 59:57
  Speaker 5: you are fearfully and wonderfully made. Hormones are going to
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 5: shift over the course of your life. They're not determinative,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: as Joseph just said. But in your social relationships, there's
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: a lot going on there, right, I mean, Beckett, if
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: people didn't tell us we were gay when we were teenagers,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: we might not have thought we were I'm just you know,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 5: I don't know. The world is a mirror, and that's
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 5: why we want to evangelize. We want people to know
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 5: that the integrity of what it means that there is
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 5: a God whose love is available to each and every person,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 5: because the mirror that we want people to have is
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 5: the mirror of the Lord Jesus Christ, not the mirror
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: of the bullies out there in the world, whether those
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 5: bullies come in the form of the left social justice advocates,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: or whether it comes in the form of fearful evangelicals
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: who don't want to talk about some of these things,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 5: don't want to who don't want to get into some
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: of these questions. You know, Joseph, when you started talking
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: about Freud, I'm just thinking, oh my goodness, because I
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 5: learned in graduate school that Freud was such a whack
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: job that he left the medical department and you know,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 5: the medical field in nineteen forty five. And where did
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 5: he go He'd go, he went, we're all fools go
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 5: He went to the English department, which is why he was.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 5: He was why I studied Freud. So, I mean, I
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 5: don't know. It kind of comes around both ways. So
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: but you know God's truth. You know, God created all
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 5: of this right, and so his truth where truth is found,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: we're going to try to tease it out, make good
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 5: sense of it. But what we don't want are people
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: whose lives have been hurt when they were children, and
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: we don't want that to be where the bookmark always
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 5: lands in their life as they reflect on their history.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 5: We don't we want the bookmark to move. And probably
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 5: it's going to take all of these and more. When
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: you think about it.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: The village, No, it's a quote.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: It's a quote.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 5: When you think about transgenderism, and you think some of
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: about some of the medicalization of transgenderism, you think about
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: young people who have had cross sex hormones and surgical
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 5: interventions and are now entering, you know, their twenty fifth
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 5: year with brittle bone condition and complications due to their
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: double mass eectomy and hysterectomy are what is the church
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: to do? Are we not to get the medical care
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 5: we need for them? Are we? Of course we are?
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 5: I mean, of course we are. We have to. We
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: have to because we believe that that there is no
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 5: problem that the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't care deeply about,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 5: and we believe that there is no pain that we
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: are not equipped to stand shoulder to shoulder with. But
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: I'm not. I'm not medically trained. I'm going to need
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: help with that. If I'm going to walk with my
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 5: sisters and the Lord who are detransitioners, I'm going to
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: need help to know how to be how to be
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: appropriately useful to them in all walks of life. So
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 5: I think in general we are not to be anti intellectual.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 5: We're to be It's not like we're you know, we're not.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: You know, heretics are the people who come together and say,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: let's rethink the Trinity. That's not what we're doing. That's
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: not what we're doing. We're not we are. We are
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: not taking age old you know, creedal truths that that
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: the Church is believed for thousands of years and dismantling them.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: We're talking about people's lives, their childhoods, and their histories
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: and their futures. And the Christian faith is not just
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 5: for the small group of people who have never been abused.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 5: Is that what we want to say? Of course? Not?
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 5: Of course not.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, we're going to end on this. Joseph tell
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: us about the Supreme Court case, the ruling that just
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: happened recently, and what what what was the case about,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: and what was the result and how does it affect
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: you personally?
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 7: Yes, So the case is Child's versus salads Are It's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 7: a US Supreme Court case about so called conversion therapy
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 7: bands and the states where we've seen this again and again,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 7: they're they're using the term conversion therapy very broadly.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: The language is very vague and broad and basically.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 7: Creates a chilling effect for anyone who wants to help
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 7: a person with their unwanted sexual attractions. That's that's conversion therapy.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 7: You're trying to force a person to go. So, these
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 7: conversion therapy bans have been silencing free speech, and this
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 7: got to the Supreme Court first. It became First Amendment issue,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 7: and does the state have the right to ban points
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 7: of view because that's effectively.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: What this is.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 7: And a young woman Christian woman Christian therapist was saying,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 7: I want to help people live in accordance with their
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 7: traditional values. And there are people who are their gender
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 7: confused individuals who who want to use my services, and
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 7: I'm being stopped by the state from doing it. And
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 7: as an aside, by the way many therapists, I'm just
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 7: going to speak generally, many therapists believe, even though if
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 7: they may not come out and say it, but they
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 7: believe that they are actually helping you. They're doing you
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 7: a favor by helping you to deconstruct from your traditional
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 7: value system, that your traditional values are keeping you from
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 7: being reaching the fullness of your self psychologically and becoming
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 7: self realized and being the best potential. And they want
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 7: to help. They won't come out and say it directly,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 7: but they want to help disabuse you of that of
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 7: that restrictive system, and they think it's in your best interest.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 7: So that's what many, many of these state boards have
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 7: been doing by silencing therapists, and whether it's directly by
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 7: taking action against them or just by by reminding them,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 7: remember you can't we have these laws and you and
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 7: that creates that chilling effect. So this this went to
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 7: the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court ruled eight to one,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 7: eight to one being the majority of the liberals sided
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 7: with the conservatives, that these so called.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: Conversions again kick a guess, yes, Tanji Brown Jackson, what
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: is the woman?
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 5: Yes, the one who wasn't a veterinarian, so couldn't describe.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 7: That's right, that's right. So she eight to one, she
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 7: was the one dissenting vote. These bands are are illegal.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 7: They're of clear violation of the US Constitution. They constitute
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 7: a content based street, content based speech restrictions which are illegal.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 7: So now they've all been removed, and I am feeling optimistic.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 7: I want to tell the two of you and your
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 7: listeners three reasons about why I am very optimistic about
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 7: our future around this issue.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: Number one is the child's versus how is our case.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 7: It gives breathing room to therapists who want to help
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 7: people live in accordance with their deeply held values, with
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 7: people just like Razaria who are saying, I want to
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 7: look my body tells me something about my design.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: So maybe that means you know there's a purpose.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 7: I can infer information about my purpose and that's not
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 7: to help a client along those lines is not hate speech.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: So I'm feeling great about the Supreme Court ruling.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 7: It gives therapists breathing room to help individuals live in
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 7: accordance with their.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: Deeply held faith.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 7: I'm encouraged because we just had our largest cohort of
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 7: therapists who are studying to do reintegrative therapy. If a
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 7: therapist is listening to this right now and you're interested
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 7: in in learning this therapy, go to reintegrateitherapy dot com.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 7: We make it as inexpensive as possible. We want to
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 7: give you all the resources so that you can help
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 7: other people. We want to equip you if you're a
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 7: professional therapist. That's what we're here for. And then the
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 7: third thing that I feel excited about is that Beckett
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 7: your interviews on this topic with me and with others.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 7: The last time I went on YouTube, they do not
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 7: have that warning label that YouTube used to put on
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 7: our videos, all those warning labels.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: It's it's like.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 7: Maybe the world's becoming a little more sane, like maybe
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 7: this is a good thing if they went a little far.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 7: And so those are three things that we have to
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 7: be to be hopeful about the future.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: But are there any restrictions on you person on you
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: in California? Are there any restrictions it's like for minors
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: or anything.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 7: We believe We believe that the lawyers are trying to
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 7: figure out right now if childs versus salas are all
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 7: that case automatically overturns all the all the bands like
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 7: in California, or do we have to go date by
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 7: state and sue and then and then win based on
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 7: childs versus salas are So we're not sure exactly, but
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 7: these laws are effectively all dead or we're in check
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 7: and about to go into checkmate, so they're effectively dead.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: Okay, well we're gonna leave it there, and thank you
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: guys for coming on and talking about this thorny. Well
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: it's not thorny. It's just this this interesting topic. And
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: I appreciate both of your inputs, and uh yeah, thank
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: you for doing this.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: Can I ask a question, yeah to Rasaria Rosaria.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 7: When Beckett and I we did done a couple of videos,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 7: and over and over in the comment section, people will say, well,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 7: what about women like you're talking about like like a
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 7: pattern for men?
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 4: And I always say.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 4: It's not my area. It's more complicated. I'll tell you
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 4: what other people say.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 7: So are there resources that you can that you can
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 7: point people to?
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 5: So you're so funny because I think the way we
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 5: met is you wrote to my website and left an email.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 5: I think you left an email too, and you asked
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: me a question like we need to study women. I
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 5: just and and you know I don't. I don't know
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 5: of any resources offhand, but I do know I'm going
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 5: to say something really controversial. Men and women are different. Okay, everybody,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 5: you're okay, Okay, he's breathing, and we do know, and
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 5: you know, we do know that that women have more
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 5: are you know, tend to be I mean, you know,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: Paul says more easily deceived, right, which you can see
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 5: how that would work very well. You could see how
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: that would work in the fall, but you could also
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 5: see how being more willing to see things from different
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 5: points of view can be very useful. It was very
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: It's very useful for me as a mother to be
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 5: able to do that, to really be a little bit
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 5: more flexible with how I'm how I'm you know, positioning
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 5: my listening skills with my children and my grandson, and
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 5: so I do think that what you said is a
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 5: good caution. Women are less visual, women are more responsive.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: It's easier, and so so I think that is true
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 5: for the women who are you know, have been lesbian
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 5: and are not lesbian. I think that the transgender issue
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 5: is a slightly different issue, and I think that's really
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 5: where I would love for you to be helping me
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: think through this, because I think that women need what
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 5: men need. If there was trauma in the past, deal
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 5: with the trauma, don't run with the trauma. Don't let
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 5: the trauma be your story. You know. One of the
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 5: status stories we have out there right now is Julie Rogers,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 5: who right now goes by the name Jules Rogers. She
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 5: was She starred in the Netflix Pray the Gay Away,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 5: She had the The New York Times hosted lesbian wedding
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 5: right after a Burga fell. She wrote a book, was
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: gay Married for a season, And she now has had
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 5: a double mass ectomy and calls herself gender queer, and
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 5: she's quite open about how her lesbianism was in fact
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 5: prompted by sexual abuse. And so it's been years and years.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 5: She was the darling of the Wheaton College. You know,
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 5: I don't know, some kind of a program to get
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: all of the same sex attracted Christians in a room
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 5: together and then be confused about why they were all
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 5: going home with a date. You know, it was I
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 5: mean you know what I mean, like it was like
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 5: the brain you know, whenever you would brainchild and evangelicalism together. Guys,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 5: it's scary to me. I'm sorry, just slap me, slap
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 5: me now. But easiest people to manipulate unplanet Earth, and
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 5: it just needs to stop being that way. But it's
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 5: really sad to me. She has been publicly crying out
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 5: for help forever and now it's gone to body mutilation.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 5: When is it going to stop? When are we so?
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: I think that women need help with their trauma, just
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 5: like men need help with their trauma. But we need
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 5: to This idea that it's safe and good and normal
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 5: to be gay or lesbian is ridiculous. And I would
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 5: add one more facet of ridiculous, the idea that you
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 5: can just sublimate your churnings and your burnings and your desires.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 5: You can't. I mean Ephesians four to eight. The thief
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 5: that is no longer a thief is not just a
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 5: thief that stops stealing. Right. Jay Adams, who in many
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 5: ways launched this this division, if you will, between repairative
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 5: therapy and biblical counseling, had a really good read on that.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 5: He said, a thief who just stops stealing is a
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 5: thief on vacation. You got to get to the you
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 5: got to get to the affections of the heart. To
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 5: quote Beckett's book title, You've got to find a change
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 5: of affection. And the Lord Jesus Christ is here to
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 5: help you do that. And you know, we live in
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 5: a modern world. You know, we have air conditioning and
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 5: flush toilets, and we have therapists. So I think, Joseph,
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 5: handle it. But but no, I don't. I don't. I mean,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think we're all not taking ourselves very
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 5: seriously here. As I said, this is where all of
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 5: our friendships go to die. But we Yeah, so I don't.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 5: But I wouldn't want to over psychologize this with women, Joseph.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: I really wouldn't, because I don't think you know, you
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 5: use the word complexity. I think the danger of over
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 5: psychologizing women as you're going to take what is a
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 5: beautiful complexity a lovely fluidity, something that is quite frankly
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: easier to work with and now make it rigid and hard.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 5: But the transgender piece really has to be dealt with.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yes it does. It is as you said, there
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 7: is something different. Let me, just as you were talking,
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 7: are two things were coming to my mind about the
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 7: differences between male and female sexuality.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 4: That there's an idea.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 7: That the masculine does and the feminine is done too.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 7: And this works on multiple levels. Okay, on a cellular level,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 7: the sperm in the egg, the masculine dot does the
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 7: the feminine is done too. On an anatomical level, for
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 7: your listeners, you know what I mean, the masculine does,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 7: the feminists done to. On an emotional societal level, the
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 7: masculine does, the feminine is done to. Women want to
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 7: be pursued in cross different cultures. It's the men who
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 7: initiate marriage. They're going to pursue marriage. There's something about
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 7: the male initiating and doing so. We have cellular, we
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 7: have anatomical, we have relational and cultural we see and
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 7: then we have and by the way, look at all
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 7: forms of masculinity in modern culture and in ancient culture
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 7: and Eastern and Western masculinity is always associated with doing.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 7: You're going to be the hunter, You're going to be
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 7: the provider. If you're not doing anything and your children
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 7: are hungry, people are going, dude, you're not being masculine.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 7: Go take care of your family like you have a responsibility.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 7: And on a spiritual level, like Christ in the Church,
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 7: or to go back to the Old Testament God in Israel,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 7: there's one the masculine is doing and the feminine is
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 7: done too. And so that might go resort back to
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 7: what you're saying, that we can't just take the same
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 7: lens toward men and apply that with women. That there
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 7: is more of a flexibility to influences that are shaping
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 7: the femininity and feminine sexuality in a way that it's
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 7: not going to be with the masculine. So that's what
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 7: was coming up for me when you were saying it.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 7: Another thought that I had about trans and I think
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 7: this is important. I'm going to offer something to the
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 7: two of you and to your listeners. I think it's
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 7: an interesting idea, which is a psychoanalytic observation about the
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 7: genesis of trans. Okay, so this is what the analyst said,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 7: and we could say many negative things about Freud. He
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 7: was an atheist and anna, But that man was very
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 7: very good at noticing very specific details about people. He
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 7: was an incredible observer, and the analysts were great observerst
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 7: So here's one thing that they noticed, the early analysts,
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 7: they said, and for those of you who listening from
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 7: with male same sex attractions, we see distancritical father, higher anxiety,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 7: and trusive mother with trans So while you speak about
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 7: boys right now, boys who end up identifying as girls,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 7: the idea is this goes back very early to a
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 7: mother who is very unpredictably attached to the infant. The
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 7: mother is there and soothing the infant in the crib,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 7: and then the mother's gone, just totally gone, and then
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 7: the mother's back again. The mother's gone and leaves for
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 7: long periods of time when the infant is trying to
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 7: make attachment, to form attachments and make his gender a
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 7: part of his identity. This is earlier. This is earlier
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 7: than male same sex attraction. We're talking, we're talking zero
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 7: through two. In this case, the boy is looking to
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 7: the mother as the primary attachment figure and the one
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 7: who's most linked to his survival. If you're an infant
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 7: and you're in the wilderness, you're dead. You need your
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 7: primary caregiver to take care of you. And so what
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 7: the infant will do to deal with the chaos of
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 7: a mother who is herself emotionally chaotic and intermittently available.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 7: What the infant, in some cases has been observed to
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 7: do is to to buffer against this. The infant will
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 7: take an article of clothing from mommy and hold it
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 7: close to feel close to mommy even though mommy doesn't here,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 7: A piece of Mommy is here and the infant feels calm.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 7: And then, if the chaotic experience continues long enough, the
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 7: infant will eventually take up article of mommy's clothing and
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 7: start to wear it. I become mommy. I'm gonna put
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 7: on her dress, I'm gonna hold her dress, I'm gonna
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 7: put her pearls around me. And on an early, very
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 7: infantile level, it's like I am becoming mommy. And this
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 7: helps me to feel centered and calm in myself. And
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 7: I'm gonna just point out two things here, because we
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 7: talk about trans and we can't. I think we are
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 7: doing people a disservice if we only say it's a
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 7: sin issue. There are some complications going on here for
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 7: those who are in the church. And I think we
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 7: should just say that this is a couple of studies here. One,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 7: this is all available online. Mothers of boys with gender
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 7: identity disorder, mothers of boys who have gender identity disorder
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 7: have borderline personality disorder or clinical depression. That means the
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 7: majority of these mothers are psychologically unwell. In the control group,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 7: it was six percent of the mothers who had depression
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 7: and zero percent had borderline personality. Give me, give you
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 7: one more. This is all available online. Attachment patterns and
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 7: complex trauma and a sample of adults diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 7: Forty six percent of adults with gender dysphoria have a
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 7: disorganized attachment style compared to five percent of the general population. Okay,
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 7: in order to create a disorganized attachment style, generally speaking,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 7: it means early early chaos, chaos and attachments. And so
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 7: this goes back to this attachment. And many men who
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 7: have I have a couple of men in my practice
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 7: like this will have fetishistic drives and desires. When they
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 7: put on women's clothing. They often feel, ah, there's a real,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 7: there's a really I have a man in my practice
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 7: who says this, When I put it on, I get
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 7: a relief from an anxiety that feels like it's always there,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 7: it's always following me all the time. When I put
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 7: on a woman's clothing, I feel like I can calm
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 7: down for a moment.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 4: That tells you it's.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 7: Not about the clothing, It's about what the clothing represents.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 7: I want to give one more example. Here a man
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 7: in my practice who said to me, he said, I
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 7: must be really under stress. He said, I said, why,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 7: what's going on? He said, I am, I'm suddenly I'm
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 7: smoking cigarettes and I'm drinking diet coke. And I said, okay,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 7: what does that mean? He said, I don't like cigarettes
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 7: and I don't like diet coke. He said, my mother
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 7: likes cigarettes, and my mother like diet coke. And when
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 7: I would see her, when I would see her stress,
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 7: I begin imitative attachments of my mother. I even hold
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 7: the cigarette like she would hold it, like when I'm
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 7: under stress. I want to merge with mommy. I want
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 7: to become one with mommy. And I'm not even doing
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 7: it on purpose. And the mother again with her own chaos,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 7: and I don't know what was going on her life,
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 7: maybe a boyfriend, and you had to leave the kids
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 7: suddenly and then come back when.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 4: They feel very strong.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 7: A lot of men will say this, When I feel
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 7: very stressed out, I feel like I regress to this
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 7: like behavior of putting on women's clothing or wanting to
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 7: merge with mommy because it gives me a sense of safety.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 7: And that is important information for people in the church
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 7: to know instead of just saying you're a pervert, knock
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 7: it off, Let's dial it back a little bit and say,
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 7: you know, maybe there's a rationale going on here. And
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 7: that's a great illustration about how their trans behaviors are
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 7: a state and not a trait because they're being told
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 7: it's a trait. They're telling you. People are saying, you're
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 7: putting that clothing on and feeling relaxed because you're accepting
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 7: who you really are. See, it's a trait. No, because
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 7: when they're not under stressed, the desire to do that
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 7: behavior decreases dramatically. So, for whatever it's worth, I think
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 7: there is something to that in our understanding of individuals
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 7: who have unwanted transgender feelings.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 5: Could I add one thing to that too. I don't
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 5: think that anybody who's saying that it's a sin means,
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 5: you know, dismissively, you are intentionally acting in some kind
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 5: of aggressive sin way. You know, when you think about
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 5: the sin of envy, well, where does envy come from?
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 5: It comes from unbidden from the heart. You know, it's
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 5: a But I appreciate what you're saying. And I have
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 5: a book I'd like to recommend, and it's called Across
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 5: the Kitchen Table Talking about Trans with Your Teen by
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 5: Sam Andreatis, who is a PCA pastor, and he has
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 5: a very helpful chart and it's about what happens when
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 5: your teen comes and sits down and says, mom, Dad,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 5: I think I'm non binary. I think I'm gender queer.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 5: And he gives it's almost like a flow chart. Okay,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I'm really old school holding it up here.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 5: But the first thing you do is you affirm your love.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 5: That's the first thing you do. And you know, I
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 5: would say that when you're calling somebody to Christ, that's
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 5: the first thing you're doing because you are not only
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 5: affirming your love, but you're offering the love of God.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 5: And then he goes through a diagnostic flow chart. What's
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 5: going on with this child. Is there adult cross dressing
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 5: for sexual arousal? Is there a craving to fit in?
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 5: Is there a lurking comorbidity, is their true body dysphoria
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 5: or alienation like you would find with anorexia. Is there
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 5: activism especially in the school. And I think this is
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 5: one of the smartest books i've and you know, I
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 5: read lots of books. That's what I do. It looks
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 5: very professional, but mostly I'm just hiding in my office.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 5: But this is probably the most helpful one, not only
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 5: for parents, but just for everybody trying to think through
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 5: exactly what Joseph is saying. That you know when Sin left,
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 5: When Sin left from being outside in the garden, right
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 5: when the snake was outside admin eve in Genesis three,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 5: and then you literally turn the page and you get
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 5: to Genesis four, and where is Sin? Well, God says,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 5: Sin is lurking at the door. It's desires for you,
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 5: but you shall have mastery over it. Well, where's the door.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 5: There's no door. It's in your heart. Sin has moved
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 5: from something that is material and outside of you to
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 5: something that is fairly it's functional, it's it's but it's
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 5: it's competing with all kinds of other things in your heart. Right,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 5: being born in atom means that we have a sin
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 5: nature and for our whole life as a Christian, we
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 5: will be fighting that's in nature and it won't be
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 5: gone until glory. But sanctification is going to come through
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 5: many forms. Some of it are going to be good
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 5: books and good articles, thinking through things, really listening to
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 5: people understanding what their histories are. But sanctification is true,
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 5: even though it's incomplete, and I think that's helpful. But
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 5: I do love that book. I think Sam Andreatis's book
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 5: would be my wreck to just help flesh out some
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 5: of these some of the flow charts of how people
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 5: get where they are.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 6: And by the way, the reason I, Joseph, you weren't
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 6: on the call yet, but the reason.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: I held up my iced.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: Tea with fresh mint and lemon in it is because
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: my mother Drea, had this every single day of her life.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 6: So it's my kind of go to what I've stressed.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 6: You know what I feel like strass, like where's the
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 6: iced tea? So I think instead of I think.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: You need to add to the kitchen window boy, the
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: iced tea boy.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 4: The ice tea boy, that's right, that's right.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 7: Yeah, the unconscious is a very interesting thing.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: Okay, we're out of time, so but you guys, thank
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: you so much. I appreciate everything. I appreciate this conversation
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: and I hope, I hope it's helpful to people. And
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, do you guys feel like it's It's hell,
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: it's been helpful this conversation.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 5: Don't be afraid to talk about things that other people
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 5: don't want to talk about.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna leave it there.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 4: Thank you, guys, Thank you.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: Wait, don't touch that dial.
• 1:27:43
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• 1:27:47
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• 1:27:53
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• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:28:00
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• 1:28:02
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