Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #179 Jason Flom with Rob Will

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#179 Jason Flom with Rob Will · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: Around six am on December fourth, two thousand, Rob Will
0:07
Speaker 1: and a Houston CoP's son, Michael Alan Rosario, were stripping
0:10
Speaker 1: hubcaps in North Houston when two Harris County deputies rolled up,
0:15
Speaker 1: and they gave chase through a nearby apartment complex. Deputy
0:19
Speaker 1: Hill followed Rob and Deputy Kelly chased Rosario. Just around
0:23
Speaker 1: the time the Deputy Hill radioed in that he had
0:26
Speaker 1: Rob in custody. Deputy Kelly lost sight of Rosario, and
0:30
Speaker 1: then about a minute later, Deputy Kelly heard gunshots coming
0:33
Speaker 1: from a little over one hundred yards away. Michael Alan
0:37
Speaker 1: Rosario had shot and killed Deputy Hill, and Rosario also
0:41
Speaker 1: shot Rob Will's left hand and freed him from his cuffs.
0:45
Speaker 1: Rob and Rosario separately fled the scene. Rob boosted a car,
0:49
Speaker 1: only to be pulled over and arrested peacefully about an
0:52
Speaker 1: hour northwest of Houston. Meanwhile, Michael Alan Rosario fled to
0:56
Speaker 1: Rob's girlfriend's apartment, where he is said to have had
0:59
Speaker 1: blood on his clothes and washed up in the sink.
1:02
Speaker 1: At trial, the prosecution muddied the details about how much
1:06
Speaker 1: time Rosario had had to return to the scene and
1:08
Speaker 1: murder Deputy Hill, which would have made Rob the only
1:11
Speaker 1: possible culprit at the scene, despite the physical evidence of
1:15
Speaker 1: the contrary. Rob was convicted of capital murder and sentenced
1:19
Speaker 1: to death. One of Rob's appellate attorneys, Sammy Khalil, tells
1:22
Speaker 1: me now about the evidence that Dave uncovered, as well
1:25
Speaker 1: as the progress in Rob's fight for freedom. This is
1:29
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction
1:45
Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm.
1:46
Speaker 2: That's me.
1:47
Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today we're going to discuss a
1:49
Speaker 1: case that has been a passion of mine for a
1:51
Speaker 1: long time, the case of Robert Jean. Will will be
1:56
Speaker 1: joined by his highly esteemed appellate attorney, Sammy Khalil. But first,
2:00
Speaker 1: let me take you back to Death Row in Texas,
2:03
Speaker 1: the Polunsky Unit, where I had a chance to speak
2:05
Speaker 1: with Rob in person. Hey, Rob, thanks for sharing your
2:09
Speaker 1: story with us.
2:10
Speaker 3: Thank you.
2:11
Speaker 2: So let's go back to way before all of this happened.
2:15
Speaker 2: Tell us about you as a child.
2:17
Speaker 3: Oh man, kind of a quiet type of child who'd
2:20
Speaker 3: like to read lot.
2:21
Speaker 2: And how was it growing up, I mean, how was
2:23
Speaker 2: your home life?
2:25
Speaker 3: Kind of grew up around.
2:28
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, my dad was murdered I mean
2:30
Speaker 4: he'd been in and out of prison before he's murdered.
2:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's really just not good.
2:36
Speaker 1: So just before all of this happened, what were you
2:40
Speaker 1: doing with your life?
2:41
Speaker 4: I was going into my seventy year college for child psychology,
2:46
Speaker 4: and I was taking care of my son.
2:48
Speaker 3: That was one of my main folks to take care
2:49
Speaker 3: of my son and his half brother.
2:52
Speaker 4: One of the reason I went to school college for
2:54
Speaker 4: child psychology because I was like, Okay, I grew up.
2:57
Speaker 3: In evangelical CHRISTI in southern takes some household.
3:03
Speaker 4: You didn't talk about problems, you didn't talk about emotion,
3:06
Speaker 4: you didn't talk about issues. Now, I remember just never
3:09
Speaker 4: having anyone to talk to, Like even after my dad
3:11
Speaker 4: was murdered, I didn't. I didn't ever talk to anyone
3:14
Speaker 4: at all about it. And getting older, you kind of
3:17
Speaker 4: realize how bad it is. And I wanted to get
3:22
Speaker 4: a green child psychologist. Okay, I could help children who
3:25
Speaker 4: didn't have anyone to talk to, right, And I always
3:28
Speaker 4: told myself, I'm going to be there for my son.
3:31
Speaker 1: And how old was your son when this tragedy happened.
3:35
Speaker 3: He was less than a year old.
3:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was very active father though I mean, I
3:40
Speaker 4: took care of him, changed his diapers, bathe him like
3:43
Speaker 4: our society should.
3:44
Speaker 3: But I don't. I took care of his half brother.
3:48
Speaker 3: It was five four or five.
3:50
Speaker 1: So you were going to school, being a good dad.
3:53
Speaker 1: But you were also involved with some not so great people.
3:57
Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, you were scared bring up some
4:00
Speaker 1: extra cash by stripping hobcaps in North Houston with the
4:03
Speaker 1: son of an Houston cop named Michael Allan Rosario on
4:07
Speaker 1: the morning that Harris County Deputy Barrett Hill was murdered.
4:11
Speaker 3: Okay, I was doing student stuff, hanging on idiot people,
4:15
Speaker 3: even on a commit this murder. No, I'm responsible for
4:20
Speaker 3: engaging in activity I should have known, could have lived
4:24
Speaker 3: the bad things. Then I'd be taken away from my son.
4:31
Speaker 2: Today we have with us.
4:32
Speaker 1: Sammy Khalil Now Sammy is a former assistant Federal Public Defender,
4:36
Speaker 1: and he's also a member of the Federal Bar Association,
4:39
Speaker 1: the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, the Harris County
4:43
Speaker 1: Criminal Lawyers Association. He's also a fellow of the Texas
4:46
Speaker 1: Bar Foundation, a board member of the Texas Defenders Service,
4:50
Speaker 1: and of course for quite some time now, you've been
4:53
Speaker 1: a part of the legal team including Jay Hewart and
4:56
Speaker 1: Karen Otto from Arnold and Porter and to local Houston
4:59
Speaker 1: A Joorney's Chad Flores and Oudam Dennell, and they're all
5:03
Speaker 1: working together to have the truth come out and free
5:07
Speaker 1: Rob Will. So, Sammy, welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. Thank you, Jason,
5:12
Speaker 1: and you and I have had the opportunity to spend
5:14
Speaker 1: some time together. Of course we were on Doctor Phil's
5:17
Speaker 1: show together talking about this very case, and of course
5:21
Speaker 1: it starts with Rob Will's unbelievably tragic childhood where he
5:26
Speaker 1: was abused terribly.
5:28
Speaker 2: His father was murdered when he was ten, right.
5:31
Speaker 3: That's right.
5:32
Speaker 5: He was in and out of trouble as a kid.
5:34
Speaker 5: This happened when he was twenty one. He was arrested
5:38
Speaker 5: in December two thousand and has been on death row
5:42
Speaker 5: essentially for the last two decades. What we know happened
5:47
Speaker 5: Rob and Rocky Michael Allen Rsario's nickname. We're stripping down
5:52
Speaker 5: like the hubcaps of a park vehicle in an apartment
5:55
Speaker 5: complex in North Houston, six am, December fourth, barely rising,
6:01
Speaker 5: and a patrol vehicle arrives at the scene. Deputy Michael
6:06
Speaker 5: Kelly was in that patrol vehicle and also Deputy Barrett Hill.
6:11
Speaker 5: When they arrive, Rob and Rosario run behind several units
6:17
Speaker 5: of the apartment complex. There's kind of like a grassy
6:20
Speaker 5: alley way. They are chased. Deputy Hill follows Rob, Deputy
6:26
Speaker 5: Kelly follows Rosario. Now Rob takes a hard left through
6:31
Speaker 5: an opening between two apartment units. Rocky does the same
6:36
Speaker 5: thing but at the next opening, and they both proceed
6:39
Speaker 5: in the same direction on either side of this apartment unit.
6:44
Speaker 5: They both cross the street. About twenty seconds later, the
6:47
Speaker 5: dispatch tates show that Deputy Hill had Rob in custody.
6:53
Speaker 5: He radios into the dispatch center saying, I have one
6:57
Speaker 5: in custody. It's undisputed that that person in custody is Rob. Meanwhile,
7:03
Speaker 5: Rosario continues down a concrete, kind of overgrown driveway in
7:09
Speaker 5: this field that's on the other side of the street
7:12
Speaker 5: that they both crossed, and Deputy Kelly he admitted that
7:16
Speaker 5: he lost sight of Rosario at some point after Rosario
7:20
Speaker 5: entered the concrete driveway, and we believe after Rob was
7:26
Speaker 5: placed in custody by Deputy Hill, that Michael Allen Rosario
7:31
Speaker 5: reached the end of that overgone driveway took a left
7:35
Speaker 5: and proceeded back to the area where Rob was handcuffed
7:39
Speaker 5: and in custody and murdered. Deputy Hill freed Rob of
7:45
Speaker 5: the handcuffs and they both.
7:47
Speaker 1: Fled, And we know that Rob was shot in the
7:50
Speaker 1: process in his left hand.
7:52
Speaker 5: There's no question about that. Rob's third and fourth knuckle,
7:55
Speaker 5: maybe the fourth and fifth knuckle of his left hand,
7:58
Speaker 5: was essentially blown off.
8:01
Speaker 1: Immediately after the tragic, senseless murder of Deputy Hill, Rosario
8:05
Speaker 1: went to Rob's girlfriend's home, where he washed his clothes.
8:08
Speaker 1: He'd later removed names and numbers from his address book.
8:12
Speaker 2: I mean, come on.
8:13
Speaker 1: He went on to confess to no less than five
8:16
Speaker 1: separate people, who later all every one of them signed
8:20
Speaker 1: a sworn affidavit. And it gets worse from there. When
8:23
Speaker 1: Rosario's family was asked to produce the clothes he had
8:26
Speaker 1: been wearing on the morning of the crime, The clothes
8:28
Speaker 1: had been washed, bleached, and neatly folded. These are not
8:34
Speaker 1: the actions we typically would associate with someone who is innocent.
8:38
Speaker 1: So back to the morning of the murder, Rob boosted
8:40
Speaker 1: a car to get away. Now, obviously that's illegal, and
8:43
Speaker 1: he doesn't dispute that, but it doesn't make him a murderer.
8:46
Speaker 2: In fact, when he.
8:47
Speaker 1: Was pulled over about an hour northwest of Houston in Brenham, Texas,
8:51
Speaker 1: he was compliant and peaceful toward the arresting officers.
8:55
Speaker 4: The prosecutor was a creageous narrative, like, you know, oh,
9:00
Speaker 4: we acted afterwards, right, but they don't even want to
9:02
Speaker 4: talk about.
9:03
Speaker 3: The actual physical evidence. In my case, I think that's
9:05
Speaker 3: very important.
9:06
Speaker 2: How did you act afterward?
9:08
Speaker 3: I ran away? I mean I saw someone get killed. Yeah,
9:12
Speaker 3: I'm running away.
9:13
Speaker 2: So you're pulled over and arrested.
9:16
Speaker 1: They treat your wounded left hand, They bag your hands
9:19
Speaker 1: and gloves to be tested for gunshot residue.
9:21
Speaker 2: What was going through your mind?
9:23
Speaker 3: I was pretty much in a state of trauma, right,
9:26
Speaker 3: you know, very very deserving. I didn't give any statement
9:30
Speaker 3: to police things. You know, they kept trying to get me.
9:33
Speaker 4: To talk about what happened, and you know who was
9:37
Speaker 4: with me, and I just didn't give any statement.
9:39
Speaker 2: How long were you in jail before trial?
9:42
Speaker 3: About a year? In a month?
9:43
Speaker 1: I mean, Rob, you knew you hadn't killed that Buby Hill.
9:47
Speaker 1: But at the time, did you really think everything was
9:50
Speaker 1: going to work itself out?
9:51
Speaker 4: You want to think that the system is righteous, the
9:54
Speaker 4: system is honorable, those and people in positions of power
9:57
Speaker 4: are going to do the right thing.
9:59
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't underst saying anything about the system
10:01
Speaker 3: as a whole. I wasn't familiar with criminal justice before
10:04
Speaker 3: a movement at the time. I didn't understand the problems.
10:07
Speaker 4: They didn't turn over some of the main physical evidence
10:09
Speaker 4: in my case. They waited a year and month until
10:12
Speaker 4: the day before trial and just take a look at
10:16
Speaker 4: the physical evidence. I mean, just like, some of the things.
10:19
Speaker 3: Are so ridiculous. It's just obvious and self evident.
10:24
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the physical evidence available at trial.
10:29
Speaker 1: None of Deputy hillsblood was found on Rob or his clothing,
10:32
Speaker 1: the same clothing from the scene that he was arrested in.
10:36
Speaker 1: When Rob was arrested, his wounded left hand was treated,
10:39
Speaker 1: and his gloves and hands were bagged to be tested
10:42
Speaker 1: for gunshot residue. Now that's per Josh Dubin's junk Science
10:45
Speaker 1: episode about gunshot residue, which I strongly recommend, one cannot
10:49
Speaker 1: conclude that the presence of antimony or barium or other
10:52
Speaker 1: elements associated with gunshot residue directly mean that a gun
10:56
Speaker 1: was fired or not. It just means that those elements
11:00
Speaker 1: are present, but the source really cannot be determined. It
11:03
Speaker 1: could be cigarette ash and certain mechanical equipment, even dried urine,
11:06
Speaker 1: as well as gunshots. Of course, those things and others
11:10
Speaker 1: can all be a potential source of some of these elements. However,
11:14
Speaker 1: if none of those elements are found at all out
11:16
Speaker 1: of suspect's hands or gloves, it can be said with
11:19
Speaker 1: certainty that a gun had not been fired by that
11:22
Speaker 1: person's hand.
11:24
Speaker 5: It appears to be the state's theory, was the state's
11:27
Speaker 5: theory at the time of trial, that Rob had this
11:31
Speaker 5: firearm before the murder, somehow, after being handcuffed or in
11:38
Speaker 5: the process of being handcuffed, shot himself handcuffed, injured himself,
11:44
Speaker 5: and somehow miraculously freed himself of these handcuffs. The problem
11:51
Speaker 5: with that theory is that no gunshot residue was ever
11:55
Speaker 5: found on Rob's right hand at all.
12:00
Speaker 1: So without gunshot residue on the right hand glove or
12:03
Speaker 1: his right hand, the one he would have needed to
12:05
Speaker 1: shoot his own left hand, obviously, it can be said
12:08
Speaker 1: with certainty that he had not fired the gun at all.
12:12
Speaker 1: Deputy Hill had not even unholstered his gun, let alone
12:15
Speaker 1: fired it, So someone else was at that crime scene
12:18
Speaker 1: firing a gun. The ballistics evidence showed that Deputy Hill
12:22
Speaker 1: had been shot as close as eight inches away. Had
12:25
Speaker 1: Rob shot Deputy Hill from that range, Rob would have
12:27
Speaker 1: been covered in Deputy Hill's blood. This was not the case.
12:32
Speaker 1: Rob did not have a speck of Deputy Hill's blood
12:35
Speaker 1: on him, So obviously someone did shoot Deputy Hill. But
12:39
Speaker 1: all evidence points away from Rob and towards Rosario, who,
12:42
Speaker 1: by eyewitness accounts, had washed blood off of his clothing
12:46
Speaker 1: in Rob's girlfriend's sink. So how in the world did
12:50
Speaker 1: the prosecution pin this on Rob? What else did they present?
12:55
Speaker 5: The dispatch records are critical. The state said that we're
12:59
Speaker 5: so based on its analysis of the dispatch records, only
13:04
Speaker 5: had about eight seconds to cover about three hundred feet
13:09
Speaker 5: one hundred yards, call it almost a football field. The
13:13
Speaker 5: state's position was that Rosario is not an Olympic athlete,
13:17
Speaker 5: that he can't cover that distance about three hundred feet
13:21
Speaker 5: in eight seconds. But in fact, a careful review and
13:26
Speaker 5: analysis of the testimony at trial, matched with the dispatch
13:31
Speaker 5: records that were presented at trial, show that Rossario had
13:35
Speaker 5: at least anywhere from forty four seconds to a minute
13:40
Speaker 5: twenty six seconds in between to reach the scene of
13:44
Speaker 5: the crime. So that was not articulated well at trial.
13:49
Speaker 5: And what's critical is that Deputy Kelly in the state
13:53
Speaker 5: suggested that Rosario went right went east at the end
13:58
Speaker 5: of that driveway, although Kelly has since walked back those
14:03
Speaker 5: initial intimations and at trial admitted that he didn't know
14:07
Speaker 5: that he lost sight of where Rossario actually went. But
14:11
Speaker 5: what was not presented at trial was this critical bloodhound
14:17
Speaker 5: dog tracking evidence that traced the scent of Michael Allen
14:21
Speaker 5: Rosario shortly after the murder up this concrete driveway, and
14:28
Speaker 5: instead of to the right, which was the state's theory east,
14:32
Speaker 5: the bloodhound tracked hard west to the left, directly to
14:38
Speaker 5: the crimes. That was not presented to the jury.
14:41
Speaker 1: Right, and so since these and so many more critical
14:45
Speaker 1: pieces of evidence, some of which were hidden by the
14:47
Speaker 1: prosecution others simply not investigated by Rob's counsel at trial,
14:52
Speaker 1: since this evidence was not presented to the jury, and
14:55
Speaker 1: since Rosario couldn't possibly have made that distance in eight seconds,
14:59
Speaker 1: we know that no human being could. Then, despite all
15:02
Speaker 1: other evidence making Rob's guilt impossible under this false narrative,
15:07
Speaker 1: Rob was the only one the state was placing at
15:09
Speaker 1: the crime scene. And we know in a case like this,
15:12
Speaker 1: someone had to answer, someone had to pay for Deputy
15:15
Speaker 1: hills murder.
15:16
Speaker 2: And that point was.
15:17
Speaker 1: Really driven home by what is known as the wall
15:20
Speaker 1: of blue. Can you talk about that?
15:22
Speaker 3: Sure?
15:22
Speaker 5: Absolutely? The Herri's County Sheriff's office put out a bulletin
15:26
Speaker 5: for Harris County Sheriff's deputies to appear in uniform at
15:32
Speaker 5: Rob's trial, not to offer evidence, but to appear as spectators.
15:38
Speaker 5: So imagine if you are such a juror sitting to
15:42
Speaker 5: pass judgment on a person whom the District Attorney's office
15:47
Speaker 5: believes killed a police officer. To have a wall of
15:51
Speaker 5: blue in the trial room, it sends an unmistakable message
15:56
Speaker 5: that we know who pulled the trigger. Had nothing to
15:59
Speaker 5: do with evidence, everything to do with creating an atmosphere
16:04
Speaker 5: of prejudice and intimidush.
16:18
Speaker 2: So there you are in the courtroom.
16:20
Speaker 1: Still healing from being shot in the hand, a gunshot
16:22
Speaker 1: wound that the lack of gunshot residue proves conclusively that
16:26
Speaker 1: you could not have inflicted on yourself. The prosecution muddy
16:29
Speaker 1: the water around how much time Rosario had to get
16:32
Speaker 1: back to the crime scene and shoot Deputy Hill from behind,
16:35
Speaker 1: along with a mountain of exculpatory evidence that was either unknown, uninvestigated,
16:41
Speaker 1: or most importantly hidden at the time of trial, plus
16:44
Speaker 1: the wall of blue. You were sentenced to death. Can
16:48
Speaker 1: you tell us about that moment?
16:51
Speaker 3: I mean, it was a it's a pronouncement of dead.
16:54
Speaker 4: Thinking back, it's just and you feel like you're out
16:57
Speaker 4: of time and out of space.
16:59
Speaker 3: And this isn't It's like, this can't be happening. This,
17:02
Speaker 3: you know, this is not real.
17:04
Speaker 1: So you've been locked up since December fourth of two
17:08
Speaker 1: thousand and eventually you were sent to death row. What
17:11
Speaker 1: have you been doing all this time to occupy your
17:14
Speaker 1: time and keep your mind sane?
17:17
Speaker 3: Oh Man, I do a lot of reading, yoga, meditation,
17:20
Speaker 3: work on art.
17:22
Speaker 1: And I encourage our audience to check out some of
17:24
Speaker 1: Rob's work. We did a show in New York with
17:27
Speaker 1: some of his artwork to support his legal battle. Just
17:29
Speaker 1: follow the link in the episode description to check it out.
17:32
Speaker 1: Freerbwill dot org is the website free Robwill dot org. Now, Rob,
17:36
Speaker 1: when you got here, your son was just barely two
17:40
Speaker 1: years old. Have you at least gotten to see him.
17:43
Speaker 3: Oh?
17:43
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't have a lot of contact with him
17:47
Speaker 4: because some of my relatives didn't let me have a
17:49
Speaker 4: lot of direct contact with him.
17:51
Speaker 3: So I'd write him and hope the letters would get
17:53
Speaker 3: to him.
17:54
Speaker 4: Some of them did, but we didn't have a lot
17:56
Speaker 4: of contact until he got older. He came to see
17:59
Speaker 4: me after he turned eighteen, and it's just like, wow, man,
18:02
Speaker 4: you know.
18:03
Speaker 3: He's like six foot what's you know? I wear a
18:07
Speaker 3: size twelve se right, you wear size thirteen. I stand
18:10
Speaker 3: up and.
18:10
Speaker 2: He's like right here.
18:12
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh wow, okay, wow man, you know he's
18:14
Speaker 4: almost as tall as me. And it's just he's a man,
18:17
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, he's he's a man. I kind
18:23
Speaker 4: of emotionally talking about this, you know, it's just like,
18:26
Speaker 4: I mean, first time I held my son, I was
18:28
Speaker 4: just in tears. I'm not something like burst out in tears.
18:31
Speaker 4: I actually just became a grandfather, right, kind of emotional.
18:34
Speaker 2: What was the question, man, Well, it was just if
18:37
Speaker 2: you get to see him.
18:38
Speaker 1: You know, I have kids myself, and the thought of
18:41
Speaker 1: not being able to be physically with them.
18:44
Speaker 4: There have been times where for some years when I
18:48
Speaker 4: first got here, very very very hard. There's people I
18:51
Speaker 4: care about out there that I know I could be
18:53
Speaker 4: a positive influence in her life while I was out
18:55
Speaker 4: there and worrying about that can be disturbing, say used
19:00
Speaker 4: to be disturbing, but really, I mean I went through
19:04
Speaker 4: period where I did a lot of study in religion
19:09
Speaker 4: and psychology and psychoanalysis and yoga and mind body health.
19:14
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm like spend weeks and weeks and weeks doing.
19:17
Speaker 4: These things, like you know, spend four or five months
19:19
Speaker 4: on one yoga post really internalizing the meaning. And one
19:24
Speaker 4: of the things that be mindful really teaches you is like, Okay,
19:29
Speaker 4: analyze events from perspective of this is not happening to me,
19:35
Speaker 4: this is happening in a larger context.
19:37
Speaker 3: It's one of the.
19:38
Speaker 4: Reasons why I always feel compelled to engage in so
19:40
Speaker 4: much criminal justice reform activity.
19:42
Speaker 3: Because Okay, it's not about just me.
19:44
Speaker 4: It's like I feel compelled to speak out about that
19:47
Speaker 4: and to work on criminal justice form, you know.
19:50
Speaker 3: What I mean.
19:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've gotten a paralegal degree well in here, and
19:54
Speaker 1: you've been leading and participating in non violent protests. Can
19:57
Speaker 1: you talk about that and how you began down this path.
20:00
Speaker 4: Oh well, it came about from very d depth study,
20:04
Speaker 4: particularly the history of resistance to British imperialism in India.
20:08
Speaker 4: And there's a book what is it, one hundred years
20:11
Speaker 4: of non violent Struggle. It showed me what it's possible,
20:14
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, okay, there are guys here are innocent.
20:17
Speaker 4: There are guys here who are on the law parties
20:19
Speaker 4: who the state will tell you they've never killed anybody.
20:22
Speaker 4: But there's still there's so much bias against criminal defendits
20:26
Speaker 4: and prisoners, especially people on death row. I thought, well,
20:29
Speaker 4: let's do something different. The idea was to take the
20:33
Speaker 4: theories that were practiced in India and during the civil
20:37
Speaker 4: rights movement here and engage in non violent direct action
20:42
Speaker 4: protests to bring some of the issues that criminal justice reform.
20:49
Speaker 3: Movement is pushing on the outside to.
20:50
Speaker 4: The forefront, right from the lens of this environment, and
20:54
Speaker 4: also to better the conditions here. Okay, So for example,
20:59
Speaker 4: I mean director, right, and they come and they handcuff
21:02
Speaker 4: us and take us out, and myself and others say no,
21:06
Speaker 4: we're not coming out. They say why, I say, well,
21:09
Speaker 4: for numerous reasons. One, you have interesting people here too.
21:12
Speaker 4: You have an interview of people here, you're trying to
21:13
Speaker 4: SQ three. We're in some highly oppressive conditions. And then
21:18
Speaker 4: of course they say, well we got something for that,
21:21
Speaker 4: and they bring the swat team and they gas you
21:23
Speaker 4: run in there and rush you up. And also I
21:25
Speaker 4: mean to be feared to have members. Yeah, they're a
21:28
Speaker 4: violent prisoners here, but yeah, they react with violence to
21:32
Speaker 4: non violence.
21:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen those videos. It's hard to believe that
21:36
Speaker 2: you actually lived that.
21:38
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they hit me with Now, this gas is
21:41
Speaker 4: for rare control. It's for like twenty to thirty people.
21:44
Speaker 4: You're not even supposed to use this in themself. They
21:46
Speaker 4: hit me with it, and that's why, I mean, I
21:48
Speaker 4: start convulsing, you know. Yeah, it went on for an
21:51
Speaker 4: hour of gasing. I almost died actually, But hey, we're
21:55
Speaker 4: sitting here talking about it right now.
21:57
Speaker 2: Right, yes we are.
21:59
Speaker 1: And I guess your perspective about death might be a
22:01
Speaker 1: little different from insight here.
22:04
Speaker 2: Do you think about it a lot? Death?
22:06
Speaker 3: You know what?
22:08
Speaker 4: Yeah, I made myself. I mean I made myself. You
22:11
Speaker 4: got to like Mento moy right, But he was an
22:14
Speaker 4: interesting thing. And various religious schools and mystic schools they
22:19
Speaker 4: have sacred rights of like fake death right, like even
22:22
Speaker 4: with Freemasons, they have a symbolic death. Okay, it's mental more,
22:28
Speaker 4: remember mortality, right, And I mean you could wallow and
22:33
Speaker 4: fear and just be let that break you, which I've
22:36
Speaker 4: seen dudes go insane. Or you could say, all right,
22:40
Speaker 4: what does that mean understanding death? And the conclusion I've
22:43
Speaker 4: come to is like, live life, man, live life, you
22:46
Speaker 4: know what I mean?
22:47
Speaker 3: This is just beauty everywhere everywhere? Like, how was listened
22:52
Speaker 3: to some cold chain John? Just listen to some John Coltrane.
22:56
Speaker 4: Man, how can you be sad listening to John Coletrane?
23:00
Speaker 4: He's like a mystic sorcerer, you know what I mean?
23:04
Speaker 4: And again his perspective, there's a lot of yoga meditation.
23:07
Speaker 3: Man.
23:08
Speaker 1: Well that sounds like a good formula for survival anywhere,
23:12
Speaker 1: including on the outside. Do you allow yourself hope for
23:16
Speaker 1: being on the outside again one day?
23:18
Speaker 4: Oh man, I've been knocked up almost twenty years. I
23:22
Speaker 4: mean I have faith in right, then will be done.
23:25
Speaker 4: Someone's gonna make this right.
23:32
Speaker 2: So Sammy, how long have you been representing?
23:34
Speaker 4: Robin?
23:35
Speaker 5: The federal judge here in Texas appointed me in January
23:38
Speaker 5: of twenty twelve to take over Rob's case. Judge Ellison
23:43
Speaker 5: described a case containing what he called disturbing uncertainties, and
23:49
Speaker 5: at that time the federal judge expressed what he called
23:52
Speaker 5: his deeply felt concerns about the substantial evidence of actual
23:58
Speaker 5: innocence on the part of Rob will errors of grave
24:03
Speaker 5: proportion at the initial trial. So that's the situation I
24:07
Speaker 5: found myself walking into when this federal judge asked me
24:12
Speaker 5: to take over Rob's case. And look from the very
24:16
Speaker 5: beginning all the way through the appellate process, what actually
24:22
Speaker 5: has happened.
24:23
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the ridiculous state havieous appeal,
24:26
Speaker 1: which is of course the round of appeal before you
24:28
Speaker 1: were appointed by Judge Allison. Tell us what this appellate
24:32
Speaker 1: attorney did and how damaging it was.
24:35
Speaker 5: I Will Rob was appointed a lawyer who essentially cut
24:40
Speaker 5: and pasted a brief that he had filed in a
24:44
Speaker 5: different death penalty case into Rob's brief. So this lawyer
24:50
Speaker 5: should have done what any reasonably competent state habeas lawyer
24:55
Speaker 5: would do, go back out and reinvestigate the case, look
25:00
Speaker 5: at witnesses that should have been called, evidence that wasn't produced,
25:05
Speaker 5: carefully analyze what's in the state's file, do the analysis
25:10
Speaker 5: of the timeline that we have now done, look at
25:13
Speaker 5: the forensic evidence, look at Michael Allen Brosaria, go through
25:18
Speaker 5: the police records his statements. You would have uncovered multiple
25:22
Speaker 5: lives were Sario made to the police, including denying that
25:26
Speaker 5: he'd ever been there, that he even knew rob and
25:28
Speaker 5: that he had handled the gun just before the murder.
25:31
Speaker 5: Forsario's behavior post murder was deeply suspicious and points to
25:36
Speaker 5: consciousness of guilt. For example, he did go back to
25:40
Speaker 5: this apartment the morning of the murder. He told a
25:45
Speaker 5: witness by the name of Natasha Halien that as he
25:48
Speaker 5: was washing his clothes in the kitchen sink of the apartment,
25:52
Speaker 5: he made a statement that the blood just came off.
25:55
Speaker 5: The DA's office moved the trial court to block that's
26:00
Speaker 5: satement from Natasha Haleian from coming into evidence for the
26:04
Speaker 5: jury's consideration. That is the evidence that Judge Ellison, in
26:09
Speaker 5: the third round of appeals has now pointed to as
26:13
Speaker 5: evidence that should have been presented. That's just one example
26:18
Speaker 5: of Rosario's suspicious behavior after the murder. These are all
26:22
Speaker 5: issues that should have been investigated that we have uncovered
26:26
Speaker 5: since twenty twelve.
26:28
Speaker 1: So let's just quickly recap some of those issues and
26:31
Speaker 1: evidence that we've already mentioned. No gunshot residue on the
26:34
Speaker 1: glove or hand that Rob would have needed to shoot
26:37
Speaker 1: himself and Deputy Hill. None of Deputy Hill's blood or
26:40
Speaker 1: DNA on Rob, which should have been the case since
26:42
Speaker 1: Deputy Hill was shot at close range. The analysis of
26:45
Speaker 1: the dispatch transcripts and sworn testimony that shows that Rosario
26:49
Speaker 1: had plenty of time to return to the scene and
26:51
Speaker 1: murder Deputy Hill, the bloodhound tracking evidence that also supports
26:55
Speaker 1: Rob's version of events, a slew of witnesses who have
26:58
Speaker 1: signed Affidavid's claiming that Rosario admitted to the murder, as
27:02
Speaker 1: well as the statement from Natasha Haley and claiming that
27:05
Speaker 1: Rosario talked about how the blood just came out of
27:08
Speaker 1: the pants as he was watching them in our kitchen sink.
27:11
Speaker 1: Then there's all of Rosario's lies to the police, which
27:14
Speaker 1: include denying having been there at all, denying even knowing
27:18
Speaker 1: Rob Will, and last but not least, denying having ever
27:21
Speaker 1: touched the gun, only to admit having handled the gun
27:25
Speaker 1: just before the murder. I mean this should be more
27:28
Speaker 1: than enough, but there's even more.
27:30
Speaker 5: We've uncovered a new witness, David Cruz, who says that
27:34
Speaker 5: Michael Allan Rosario confessed to the murder, but that he
27:38
Speaker 5: was going to blame Rob Will. And we've uncovered the
27:43
Speaker 5: smoking gun. We've discovered police records that show that Michael
27:47
Speaker 5: Allen Rosario approached the Texas Syndicate Gang and David Cruz
27:53
Speaker 5: to have Rob Will, the only eyewitness to his crime
27:58
Speaker 5: killed after the There's nothing more suspicious than trying to
28:02
Speaker 5: have someone killed postcrime. The State of Texas knew about
28:06
Speaker 5: this document. The District Attorney's office knew about this document,
28:11
Speaker 5: but they inexplicably concealed it from Rob's defense team. In fact,
28:16
Speaker 5: pre trial, days before the beginning of jury selection, Deputy Strickland,
28:21
Speaker 5: who authored this document, represented to the court under oath
28:25
Speaker 5: that he had no information relating to Rob Will's case.
28:30
Speaker 1: I mean, why would the authorities be seeming to protect
28:33
Speaker 1: an individual who, by all appearances, seems to have been
28:36
Speaker 1: the actual murder of a police officer.
28:38
Speaker 5: Michael Allen Rosario is someone who has been in trouble
28:42
Speaker 5: with the law since a very young age, and seemingly
28:46
Speaker 5: he has been protected. Rosario before the crime and also
28:51
Speaker 5: after he and Rob were arrested, appeared to believe that
28:55
Speaker 5: his dad was a shield from prosecution. He made statements toilers,
29:00
Speaker 5: in particular Deputy Patricia Shaffani, that he was essentially invincible.
29:06
Speaker 5: That too, is another police record or jail record that
29:10
Speaker 5: was never disclosed to Rob's defense team.
29:13
Speaker 1: Yeall, this is not some fly by night person. This
29:17
Speaker 1: is an actual police official who's prepared to come forward
29:21
Speaker 1: with this very damning evidence.
29:23
Speaker 5: And what we have been fighting for is a new
29:26
Speaker 5: trial to present all of the evidence that we have
29:30
Speaker 5: uncovered over the last eight years.
29:32
Speaker 2: And I understand there's been some progress on that front.
29:35
Speaker 5: There has been some movement on that front. After a
29:38
Speaker 5: long struggle. On August fifth of twenty twenty, the United
29:42
Speaker 5: States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit sent the
29:46
Speaker 5: case back to Judge Ellison so he could further explore
29:51
Speaker 5: this key exculpatory evidence that was withheld from Rob's trial lawyers.
29:57
Speaker 5: In fact, they quote him at in certain parts of
30:01
Speaker 5: their opinion that there are disturbing uncertainties, a total absence
30:07
Speaker 5: of eyewitness testimony or strongly probative forensic evidence, and considerable
30:13
Speaker 5: evidence supporting Will's innocence, and then the Fifth Circuit goes
30:17
Speaker 5: on to say that there were disturbing uncertainties of Will's
30:22
Speaker 5: culpability even before the introduction of the withheld evidence. Now,
30:27
Speaker 5: with the new evidence in hand, the uncertainties are even
30:31
Speaker 5: more disturbed. In addition to all of that, the Fifth
30:34
Speaker 5: Circuit stated that Rob Will has now demonstrated that it
30:40
Speaker 5: is reasonably likely that after hearing the new evidence alongside
30:45
Speaker 5: the old evidence, every reasonable juror would have some level
30:51
Speaker 5: of reasonable doubt.
31:03
Speaker 3: I'm absolutely innocent. This isn't some ridiculous game or anything.
31:07
Speaker 4: And I want people to really really realize this, and
31:11
Speaker 4: I take the time to look at the evidence, because yes,
31:14
Speaker 4: it's about me, but it's about my family and it's
31:16
Speaker 4: about the criminal justice system as a whole. You know,
31:20
Speaker 4: there are law professors who are like academic commentators who say, well, yeah,
31:24
Speaker 4: we probably executed four.
31:26
Speaker 3: Or five incent people in Texas. It's not okay. It's
31:30
Speaker 3: not okay.
31:30
Speaker 4: It is not okay, it is not okay at all.
31:36
Speaker 1: Well, Rob, you're definitely appreciation of the choir here. I
31:39
Speaker 1: can't even count the number of times I've said this
31:42
Speaker 1: while arguing against people who believe in the death penalty.
31:46
Speaker 1: I mean, how many innocent people is it okay to execute? Like,
31:49
Speaker 1: do you know any other innocent guys that are in
31:51
Speaker 1: there with you right now?
31:53
Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you this.
31:54
Speaker 4: When I first got here, I thought I was the
31:56
Speaker 4: only one, right, But then it's like, oh wow, another
32:00
Speaker 4: guy generted, Oh wow, ah, another exoneration is just like
32:04
Speaker 4: it's just ridiculous, you know.
32:05
Speaker 3: What I mean.
32:06
Speaker 4: I think maybe one of the things is like I
32:10
Speaker 4: read so much and I study so much. I think
32:12
Speaker 4: I've always kind of been like that. But it's a
32:14
Speaker 4: compulsion to understand society and understand the system and understand more.
32:21
Speaker 3: Of the intricacies of life. And also I feel feel
32:25
Speaker 3: deepropulsion to really let people understand the system man, and
32:31
Speaker 3: understand how it truly works. And one of.
32:35
Speaker 4: The reasons why I fight so hard is because I
32:37
Speaker 4: have a vision of doing the type of works Anthony
32:39
Speaker 4: Graves has done since he's been released.
32:41
Speaker 3: Anthony Graves was a really good dude.
32:43
Speaker 4: He was generated here five six years ago, and he
32:48
Speaker 4: is like a shining example of what the foreign incarcerated,
32:52
Speaker 4: especially those who are exonerated.
32:53
Speaker 2: Should be well.
32:55
Speaker 1: Rob even if you're not out yet you have already
33:00
Speaker 1: showing yourself to be that shining example through your artwork,
33:04
Speaker 1: through your spirit, through what you've been able to accomplish
33:08
Speaker 1: from behind bars, not only in the realm of criminal
33:11
Speaker 1: justice and prison reform, but also in just the man
33:14
Speaker 1: that you have become against all odds.
33:18
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for talking to me today.
33:22
Speaker 3: Thank you.
33:23
Speaker 1: We're not here for any reason other than to try
33:26
Speaker 1: to have the truth come out, not just for Rob
33:28
Speaker 1: and for his family, but also for the family of
33:30
Speaker 1: the murdered officer and for his memory. It was a
33:34
Speaker 1: senseless crime that never should have happened, but Rob didn't
33:38
Speaker 1: do it and he shouldn't be in prison for it.
33:40
Speaker 1: We're going to need all the support we can get
33:42
Speaker 1: from anyone and everyone who could lend their voice to
33:45
Speaker 1: this issue. So if you haven't done so already, please
33:47
Speaker 1: check out the Rolling Stone article about this case and
33:50
Speaker 1: go to Freerobwill dot org to learn more. You can
33:54
Speaker 1: also sign a petition for a new trial for Rob
33:56
Speaker 1: at change dot org. All of these action steps will
33:59
Speaker 1: be linked in the episode bio, so just scroll down,
34:02
Speaker 1: learn more and get involved.
34:05
Speaker 2: And Sammy, we.
34:06
Speaker 1: Have a feature of this show that has come to
34:08
Speaker 1: be my favorite part of the show, and I think
34:10
Speaker 1: a lot of the audience shares my feelings on it. It's
34:13
Speaker 1: a segment we call closing arguments, and basically it's just
34:17
Speaker 1: where I get to once again thank you for being here,
34:21
Speaker 1: and then turn my microphone off and just kick back,
34:25
Speaker 1: close my eyes and listen to you with any closing
34:30
Speaker 1: thoughts that you want to share.
34:31
Speaker 5: Well, Jason, thank you again. Thank you for your commitment
34:34
Speaker 5: to criminal justice reform, your interest in the death penalty
34:39
Speaker 5: and reforming and hopefully one day abolishing the death penalty.
34:44
Speaker 5: And thank you in particular for your interest in Rob's case,
34:48
Speaker 5: Doctor Phil He deserves a lot of credit. These are
34:51
Speaker 5: not easy cases. We have a slang police officer and
34:55
Speaker 5: people don't want to be associated with that. But what
34:58
Speaker 5: we need is is for the truth to come out.
35:03
Speaker 5: All we're asking, if you're gonna seek the death penalty
35:06
Speaker 5: against someone, let's make it a fair fight. Don't hide evidence,
35:10
Speaker 5: don't conceal evidence. Live up to your obligations you have
35:14
Speaker 5: to under the Constitution, under the Supreme Courts nineteen sixty
35:19
Speaker 5: three case Brady versus Maryland, turnover disclose to the defense
35:25
Speaker 5: favorable evidence. Why if you don't innocent people like Rob
35:33
Speaker 5: end up on death row. So we need another trial
35:36
Speaker 5: where the jury hears the whole story, not just half
35:40
Speaker 5: of the story. We need another trial where the DA's
35:43
Speaker 5: office lives up to its constitutional and ethical obligations to
35:48
Speaker 5: turn over favorable evidence before the trial, not thirteen fourteen
35:53
Speaker 5: years afterwards, when the appellate process is so restrictive in
35:58
Speaker 5: terms of what judge can do. We need to get
36:01
Speaker 5: a new trial that's fair, that's just where the DA's
36:06
Speaker 5: office placed by the rules, where they don't hide or
36:10
Speaker 5: conceal that. Thank you, Joseon Rob.
36:16
Speaker 3: I think that people need to understand that I truly
36:17
Speaker 3: am innocent in my case. Yes, it's about me and
36:20
Speaker 3: my family, but it's also about the criminal justice system
36:24
Speaker 3: as a whole. And everybody needs to realize the truth
36:30
Speaker 3: of the evidence in my case and also understand that
36:35
Speaker 3: it should be a microscope.
36:38
Speaker 4: With which to examine the intricacies of the criminal justice system.
36:42
Speaker 4: And I hope people will feel compelled to get involved
36:46
Speaker 4: in criminal justice reform.
36:50
Speaker 6: Oh, everybody, go on the internet and google John Coltrane interview,
36:57
Speaker 6: Go listen to Love Supreme, listen to John Cole train Man, and.
37:01
Speaker 3: You're gonna be happy, huh.
37:11
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
37:14
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.
37:15
Speaker 2: It really helps.
37:16
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
37:19
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
37:22
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions before
37:26
Speaker 1: they happen. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
37:29
Speaker 1: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
37:32
Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music
37:35
Speaker 1: in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated.
37:37
Speaker 2: Composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to.
37:40
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