Latest / The Morning Edition / White Lotus: The One Nation edition. Plus the PM’s landmark AI speech

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White Lotus: The One Nation edition. Plus the PM’s landmark AI speech · The Morning Edition

0:01
S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley, and you're listening to Inside Politics from
0:04
S1: the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:07
S1: As usual, I am joined by our chief political correspondent,
0:11
S1: Paul Satchell, who joins me from Canberra. Paul here at
0:15
S1: Inside Politics were generally pretty low fi, but how much
0:18
S1: do you use artificial intelligence in the course of your work?
0:22
S2: Well, I've had a few conversations with people about this
0:25
S2: this week actually, and I'm actually surprisingly and almost embarrassingly
0:30
S2: bad with technology. My default when I have a tech issue,
0:33
S2: is to call the IT guys without even trying to
0:36
S2: have a crack. I don't have a AI app on
0:38
S2: my phone, and I feel like I'm at the point
0:40
S2: where if I don't start to learn the skills to
0:42
S2: just do some basic stuff, not write stories, but do
0:45
S2: research and other admin things, I will be left behind.
0:48
S2: Like Australia might be in the AI arms race, so
0:51
S2: I need I need to get on to it. I
0:52
S2: think I'm a bit embarrassed by my lack of use.
0:55
S1: You'll be.
0:55
S2: The.
0:55
S1: Basket weaver. The basket weaver of the press gallery. Um, look, I'm. also.
1:00
S1: I would not say that no one could accuse me
1:02
S1: of being a tech genius, but I definitely use AI
1:05
S1: in sort of my personal life, if that like for,
1:08
S1: you know, various bits and pieces like home maintenance, etc.
1:12
S1: and in terms of my work, I use it increasingly
1:15
S1: a lot. Like I use it for transcripts. I use, um,
1:18
S1: Google pinpoint, which is a really good tool if you
1:20
S1: want to put a lot of documents together. I use
1:23
S1: it to search documents, etc. I would never in a
1:25
S1: million years use it to write anything, but I'm sure
1:28
S1: there are probably journalists who already do. And of course
1:30
S1: we're talking about AI because the Prime Minister gave a
1:34
S1: landmark speech this week about the government's approach to AI.
1:37
S1: It's an issue that's been bubbling away for them politically
1:40
S1: on a few fronts, most notably with data centres and
1:43
S1: sort of local and community opposition to data centres and
1:45
S1: bigger questions about how much resources these things are going
1:49
S1: to suck up. And then also, there's been lobbying to
1:51
S1: the government by artists, musicians, authors about the protection of
1:55
S1: copyright laws, because the big AI companies basically have been
1:58
S1: asking or lobbying the government for a blanket exemption to
2:01
S1: copyright law so they can take all of this artistic
2:04
S1: content and use it to train their AI models, as
2:07
S1: they call it. So. Albanese gave a speech this week
2:10
S1: on Wednesday at his alma mater, at which is Sydney University.
2:13
S1: What did he say in the speech?
2:16
S2: Yeah, it was a highly anticipated speech. This was on
2:19
S2: Wednesday at lunchtime. It was his first big set piece
2:23
S2: moment to speak at length about AI.
2:27
S3: Australians have always been enthusiastic adopters of new technology, and
2:32
S3: AI is, of course, already part of our daily lives.
2:37
S2: The opportunities it presents, the risks it presents, how it
2:40
S2: might affect the workforce, what it might mean for governments
2:44
S2: and more broadly, how the government saw AI almost in
2:48
S2: a moral sense. And he did actually quote the papal
2:52
S2: encyclical on AI from the new pope last year, which
2:55
S2: made waves Also.
2:57
S3: Because the real issues the AI presents are not technical ones.
3:02
S3: They are economic ones, legal ones, social ones. And as
3:07
S3: Pope Leo has made clear in his superb first papal
3:11
S3: encyclical Magnifica Humanitatis, they is also a moral and a
3:18
S3: spiritual one. They are tests of our national values.
3:23
S2: And really, in a political sense, the key intent from
3:27
S2: the Prime Minister was to let all the groups who
3:31
S2: are becoming increasingly interested in this topic know that the
3:34
S2: government was aware that there was bubbling concern about job losses.
3:38
S2: It understood that there were local communities who felt uncomfortable
3:42
S2: about water usage and potential electricity price spikes caused by
3:45
S2: data centres, and particularly to the union movement. It knew
3:50
S2: that there were the potential, there was the potential for
3:52
S2: huge economic upheaval, and that, unlike a year ago, when
3:55
S2: the government rejected the idea of making specific laws for AI,
3:59
S2: which were put forward by the then industry minister Ed Husic,
4:02
S2: who was dumped from cabinet, has become quite a critic
4:05
S2: of Albanese. The government was now of the view that
4:08
S2: there was a requirement to put something in legislation not
4:11
S2: quite as expansive and as interventionist as the EU's regulatory
4:16
S2: approach from a couple of years ago, which was, has
4:18
S2: been unwound and has left the EU a bit behind
4:20
S2: in the AI race. But some significant new, you know,
4:23
S2: guardrails as the buzzword to put around this new emerging technology,
4:27
S2: which we'll see in legislation next year.
4:29
S1: Yeah. So they're talking about legislation early next year, which
4:32
S1: will basically set out AI regulatory standards. There's going to
4:35
S1: be an office AI office of AI, which will sit
4:38
S1: in his own department, the Prime Minister and Department of
4:41
S1: Prime Minister and Cabinet. He said it was a bigger
4:43
S1: challenge than social media. And he also said with the
4:46
S1: data centres that they're going to have to generate at
4:48
S1: least as much electricity as they soak up. And I
4:52
S1: think the same with water. And the other question with
4:56
S1: the data centers is whether or not they're going to
4:57
S1: take resources and even land away from construction, home construction,
5:01
S1: which we so desperately need. So he, he sort of
5:04
S1: had some words to say on that and said that,
5:06
S1: you know, they'll be required to build on land that
5:08
S1: couldn't is not going to be used to build, build
5:10
S1: houses on. Um, how much of this is sort of
5:13
S1: about jobs? Because the Australian Council of Trade Union president
5:16
S1: Sally McManus has been out, she's been pretty punchy in
5:19
S1: her statements and said, you know, if businesses think that
5:22
S1: this is just an opportunity to cut lots of workers,
5:25
S1: then they're going to have a fight on their hands.
5:27
S1: How much of Albanese's speech was about placating the unions,
5:30
S1: particularly in the lead up to the ALP National conference?
5:32
S2: Yeah, I thought there was some some of his firmest
5:35
S2: language yet, outlining his view that the AI revolution should
5:40
S2: not be used to replace workers, but rather should be
5:43
S2: used to augment workers, make them more productive. Of course,
5:48
S2: he was keen to say that he wasn't a Luddite
5:51
S2: approach in this speech. He was, He emphasized, and also
5:54
S2: on 730 report on ABC at night time, emphasized that
5:57
S2: it would be folly to try and keep this technology
6:01
S2: out of workforces. He encouraged workers to embrace it where
6:04
S2: they could. But he sent a pretty clear signal to
6:08
S2: big corporate firms in Australia that he wouldn't he would
6:11
S2: not like to see mass layoffs, which would cause potentially
6:15
S2: social upheaval, create put pressure on, you know, workers insurance
6:19
S2: schemes and generally create anxiety in the community. This is
6:23
S2: obviously in line with the union movement. On the other hand,
6:26
S2: and this is what's so tricky and murky about this
6:30
S2: policy area because there are so many competing imperatives here. He,
6:34
S2: on the other hand, said to big AI firms like
6:36
S2: Anthropic and Google and Microsoft, who are keen to play
6:39
S2: out not just billions, but tens and potentially hundreds of
6:42
S2: billions of dollars into Australia to build these data centres,
6:46
S2: which they've already been doing in one. In 2024, we
6:48
S2: were the second biggest data centre investment destination in the world.
6:52
S2: I've seen some dispute on those figures, but the government
6:54
S2: repeatedly says it, and I think there is good evidence
6:56
S2: for it. So this is already occurring in Australia. And
6:59
S2: he's telling those firms who want to invest even more,
7:01
S2: and anthropic wants Australia to become its second home, that
7:05
S2: these guidelines and these new laws, you know, the detail
7:08
S2: of which we've not seen, and we'll see how rigid
7:10
S2: they are, will, in his view, create more investor certainty
7:15
S2: and facilitate increased investment also. So on the one hand,
7:19
S2: he's saying we want to protect jobs. On the other hand,
7:21
S2: he's saying we want to maintain sovereignty, build up our
7:24
S2: own AI tools. And then on a, you know, you
7:26
S2: don't have three hands. So my metaphor is not really
7:28
S2: working here, but on on the other side, he's telling
7:31
S2: for big US tech behemoths who have famously, if they
7:34
S2: follow the, the, the pattern of their social media counterparts
7:38
S2: do not really respect sovereign nations laws. They're telling those
7:43
S2: firms that they want more investment and that we're open
7:46
S2: for business. So there was a message for all all
7:48
S2: the stakeholder groups on Wednesday.
7:51
S1: Yeah, it was it was very upbeat. It was kind
7:53
S1: of reassuring. He he was definitely downplayed the risks or
7:55
S1: he didn't really talk about the risks. And he certainly
7:58
S1: didn't talk about what some people, including economists and some
8:01
S1: of the AI architects themselves think of as basically a threat,
8:05
S1: an existential threat to humanity. How was the business response
8:09
S1: to this speech? Because he was really keen to talk
8:11
S1: up the the investment prospects, and that Australia is going
8:14
S1: to be a really good environment to invest in.
8:16
S2: Mhm. I think most of the stakeholders were keen to
8:19
S2: give the Prime Minister credit for trying to take grip
8:24
S2: of such an unwieldy policy area as he tends to do.
8:27
S2: His his approach as a politician is to try and
8:31
S2: bring disparate groups together to create commonality and try and
8:35
S2: move forward with a sense of cooperation. He invoked the
8:38
S2: Hawke Keating era accord when Australia was facing a moment
8:42
S2: of globalization, Thatcher and Reagan took a more laissez faire
8:46
S2: approach to that period, Where is that that that very
8:50
S2: successful labor government sought to create a greater social welfare
8:54
S2: dividend at that time. So he invoked that labor spirit
8:57
S2: to say that business and unions and government needed to
9:00
S2: come together to ensure we were not left behind, but
9:04
S2: also make sure that there was a of the profits
9:08
S2: that would be made, a significant proportion of that profit
9:11
S2: would flow to workers, not just firms. Now, that's that's
9:15
S2: a Pollyanna ish view. It would be fantastic if Australia
9:18
S2: could go down that route. But the unsaid part of
9:21
S2: Albanese's speech, and, you know, some of the business figures
9:23
S2: pointed this out is that we have no idea how
9:26
S2: this technology will play out. There are wildly different forecasts
9:31
S2: from different economists, and there seems to be, if you
9:33
S2: go by a statement that 200 very prominent economists put
9:36
S2: out earlier this week in the US, including 15 Nobel laureates,
9:40
S2: there is a growing consensus that there might be more
9:42
S2: speedy and highly disruptive change in the workforce in the
9:47
S2: space of 5 or 10 years than than the median opinion.
9:50
S2: And The economist and the economist world was a year ago.
9:53
S2: So the business community and the AI firms themselves were
9:56
S2: happy that Albanese was seeming to seize the moment. But
10:00
S2: there was also a kind of let's wait and see
10:02
S2: what we actually are provided here by way of legislation.
10:06
S1: Yeah, there's so much unknown about the layoffs question. I think, um,
10:10
S1: the federal Department of Employment and Workplace Relations has put
10:13
S1: out a report last week that found no evidence to date,
10:16
S1: a broad labor market upheaval driven by AI. However, there
10:20
S1: are increasingly economists and even banks. The UBS bank put
10:23
S1: out an analysis this week that said on a sort
10:27
S1: of moderate AI adoption scenario, then ASX listed Australian companies
10:32
S1: might shed or could potentially shed 10 to 15% of
10:36
S1: their workforce. And if it's an extreme adoption or a
10:38
S1: high adoption scenario, then it could be up to 20%
10:42
S1: of their workforces. And I mean, Sally McManus says, well,
10:45
S1: you know, the companies have got another thing coming if
10:47
S1: they think they can lay off workers. But ultimately, the
10:50
S1: job of a company is to do its work the
10:52
S1: most efficiently it can so as to maximize shareholder returns.
10:56
S1: So the heavy adoption of AI could well be in
10:59
S1: a company's interest. I mean, there could be an enormous
11:03
S1: public policy challenge that we're facing, as we could be
11:07
S1: facing around the world. And, you know, a government, a
11:09
S1: labor government that is on the side of workers by
11:12
S1: ideological bench will could face an enormous conflict. Right?
11:17
S2: Absolutely. And that that that labor tradition is why Albanese
11:22
S2: has made the noises he's made in this speech. And
11:24
S2: at that estimate, you just cited at 10 to 15% turnover.
11:28
S2: Even if AI does create a new set of jobs
11:31
S2: sometime down the track and ultimately lead to higher living
11:34
S2: standards and higher productivity, which is the which is the aim,
11:37
S2: the great aim, particularly in a low productivity economy like ours,
11:41
S2: that churn in the medium term could could generate a
11:44
S2: huge level of political tension, unease in this society. People
11:49
S2: have done research on what the growth in Chinese manufacturing
11:53
S2: and exports did to Western societies in the early 2000
11:57
S2: and onwards, in terms of the reduction in manufacturing jobs
12:00
S2: in places like America, and even much smaller rates of
12:04
S2: workforce turnover than 10 to 15%, even in the single
12:07
S2: digits that that group of workers shifting out of the workforce,
12:12
S2: needing to find new places to express themselves and find
12:16
S2: their identity. Caused huge political upheaval, in part led to
12:21
S2: the populist moment that we're in, and created a general
12:24
S2: sense that the country was on the wrong track. So
12:27
S2: we really are heading into a moment where, you know,
12:30
S2: far be it for much smarter people than us are
12:32
S2: trying to get their head around what this means for
12:34
S2: modern society. It is quite profound. It's quite confusing because
12:38
S2: there are so many different trade offs and so many possibilities,
12:41
S2: and we're in the center of it. So it's a
12:44
S2: fun time to be talking about politics. Fun and a
12:46
S2: bit scary.
12:47
S1: Yeah it is. Particularly when you think that, you know,
12:50
S1: if it is sort of entry level or graduate level
12:51
S1: jobs that are going to be, um, going to be
12:54
S1: defunct because of AI, then it'll be young people coming
12:56
S1: out of university or coming out of education, the next generation.
12:59
S1: They might, you know, they might be facing mass unemployment.
13:01
S1: We don't know. We just don't know.
13:03
S2: Yeah. Telemarketers, bank workers, people in software, um, low, low
13:08
S2: level lawyers and accountants. It's it journalists.
13:12
S1: I think a lot of journalistic jobs could go. Absolutely.
13:15
S1: People in the care economy, in service industries are the
13:18
S1: ones who are going to be protected. And, um, you know, tradies,
13:21
S1: I guess, send your kids into a trade. Um. All right, Paul,
13:25
S1: let's switch to sunnier climes. I want you to imagine
13:28
S1: we're in Sicily. We're in the resort town of Taormina.
13:31
S1: We're staying at the Grand Hotel, San Pietro. At the moment,
13:34
S1: we're just about to order some cocktails. We're sitting by
13:36
S1: the pool. This is the scenario that Pauline Hanson and
13:40
S1: her friend and benefactor, political benefactor Gina Rinehart, are currently facing.
13:46
S1: That's where they are right now, according to photographs that
13:48
S1: we've just published on our websites. Pauline Hanson has been
13:51
S1: in having a hot girl summer in Europe, and she's
13:54
S1: been in the UK doing some political business, and now
13:59
S1: she's obviously having a few days off in Sicily. Why
14:01
S1: is she over in Europe? What's she been doing?
14:04
S2: His. Barnaby Joyce been having a hot boy. Summer, would
14:06
S2: you say? Because he's been over there to. He's never
14:09
S2: been to him that way. Probably.
14:11
S1: Maybe he's having a. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think he is.
14:15
S1: I hope he stays out of the sun.
14:17
S2: So Hanson left Australia after the last sitting of Parliament
14:20
S2: when labor passed its budget bills. There's a big five
14:23
S2: week break from sittings in Canberra. So there's a little
14:26
S2: moment where pollies tend to quite often jet off. But
14:30
S2: this is quite a unique trip. Hanson has been in
14:33
S2: London for conservative political conferences, the CPAC conference where there's
14:37
S2: an Australian variant, and the AAC conference, which is a
14:40
S2: bit of a more highbrow version of CPAC. Uh, CPAC
14:44
S2: is a, a forum where, uh, which is a really
14:47
S2: become the global leader in highlighting the populist agenda. Nigel Farage, many,
14:54
S2: many figures from the Trump world. Uh, and increasingly Australian
14:59
S2: politicians are part of it as well. Figures like Jacinta Price,
15:02
S2: Tony Abbott, various others have spoken at these forums. They
15:06
S2: kind of highlight conservative ideas and the agenda of what
15:10
S2: many people describe as the new right. Um, so there
15:13
S2: is an Australian version of CPAC, but the London and
15:16
S2: US versions are places where there's often global attention. Uh,
15:20
S2: so she's been over there for those conferences, but she's
15:22
S2: also on a little bit of a tour of the
15:25
S2: European or more, more, more appropriately UK populist milia, if
15:31
S2: you'd like. Um, she's said that she'd meet with Nigel Farage,
15:35
S2: the leader of reform UK, who's been in a little
15:38
S2: bit of a pickle himself, calling a by election in
15:41
S2: his own seat due to a scandal over donations from
15:44
S2: a dubious crypto billionaire. That meeting I haven't seen reporting
15:48
S2: on yet, I'm not sure if it's occurred. She's also
15:51
S2: met with Rupert Lowe, who is a figure who had
15:54
S2: defected from the Tories, which is the fair version of
15:56
S2: the Liberal Party to reform before being pushed out by
16:00
S2: Nigel Farage due to his extreme views, but also his
16:03
S2: personal alleged abuse towards other officials in reform. He's now
16:08
S2: started a party called restore, which is kind of the
16:11
S2: right wing upstart that's, you know, pushing reform to the right.
16:15
S2: And most controversially, Hanson has teased but not yet released
16:19
S2: a podcast with Tommy Robinson, who's the anti-Islam kind of
16:23
S2: provocateur who's been widely condemned by figures including Farage, the
16:29
S2: Australian Conservative Andrew Bolt for being a thug who's been
16:33
S2: charged with various criminal offences and who has been involved
16:36
S2: in a number of scandals where his credibility has been
16:39
S2: brought into question. She's been touring the streets of a
16:42
S2: town called Luton, which Robinson and others have used to
16:46
S2: highlight what they say is the scourge of, you know,
16:49
S2: political Islam in Britain. We're yet to see a spotlight
16:53
S2: episode by channel seven, which is their version of 60 minutes,
16:56
S2: which will air on Sunday, which has some of her
16:58
S2: UK trip. She's apparently grilled quite heavily by Liam Bartlett,
17:02
S2: the very experienced channel seven reporter who also has a
17:05
S2: bust up with Robinson and all of this. And sorry
17:08
S2: to drone on. All of this has raised questions even
17:11
S2: inside One Nation. I'm trying to write something on this,
17:14
S2: which our listeners could read in the next few days
17:17
S2: on some of the questions inside One Nation about Hanson's
17:20
S2: approach and what their what their questioning is, why she
17:24
S2: would go on a trip like this and vacate the
17:26
S2: domestic political terrain, giving the coalition much more oxygen than
17:31
S2: they've had in a while. And at a moment when
17:33
S2: she was polling around 30%, which is an extraordinary figure, um,
17:37
S2: leading labor and the coalition, she's dipped in quite a
17:41
S2: few polls to the mid 20s, still averaging around 26%.
17:45
S2: But the trend is just that she's having she's clearly
17:48
S2: having a down moment. And she's taken some really big
17:50
S2: hits on her personal popularity numbers as well. So, you know,
17:54
S2: it's it's not worth exaggerating. 26% is still a huge number,
17:57
S2: but there's there's appears to be a miscalculation.
18:00
S1: There still outpolling the coalition. We might add to the,
18:03
S1: you know, which is on 23% according to our resolve
18:06
S1: political monitor, um, compared to one nation's 26%. So I mean,
18:11
S1: she's keen to connect with all these far right figures
18:13
S1: from overseas who may or may not be familiar to
18:16
S1: Australian voters. I suspect they're really not particularly kind of
18:19
S1: low information voters. Um, it's generating some publicity for her in,
18:23
S1: you know, our newspapers. I just wonder what the political
18:26
S1: strategy is here because, you know, if there are people
18:29
S1: at home who are struggling with the cost of living,
18:32
S1: living or struggling with whatever they're struggling with, and she
18:35
S1: sort of, I don't want to say swanning about Europe,
18:37
S1: but it does look a little bit like she's swanning
18:38
S1: about Europe. She's she's in this really fancy hotel in,
18:42
S1: in Sicily, admittedly, that's a private holiday. She's allowed to
18:45
S1: have a private holiday. But even when she met up
18:48
S1: with Holly Valance, who's, of course, a former neighbours star
18:51
S1: who's recently divorced from like a UK billionaire who was
18:54
S1: a strong. Her and her husband or ex-husband were very
18:57
S1: strong supporters of, um, of Nigel Farage. And they're sort
19:01
S1: of at Blenheim Castle, like they're doing some touristic sightseeing.
19:04
S1: I just wonder like, yeah, how does that land with
19:07
S1: voters back here that she's trying to win over?
19:09
S2: Yeah. Well, this is the question that some of our
19:11
S2: own colleagues are asking. She had a poor time at
19:14
S2: the Press Club, which we've been been through in length.
19:16
S2: So we won't go through that. And, you know, the
19:18
S2: argument that some of them and many in the coalition
19:20
S2: are surprised she didn't take this course is to, you know,
19:23
S2: bed down her position over winter, regain any lost skin
19:26
S2: that she had at the Press Club. Instead, she's gone overseas,
19:30
S2: met with a bunch of figures that most Australians I
19:32
S2: agree with you would have would not know. And if
19:36
S2: you're searching for a rationale, and I have been thinking
19:40
S2: about this and asking people about this, I guess there's
19:42
S2: a there's a few, a few fronts where you could,
19:44
S2: you know, create a logical explanation for what she's done.
19:47
S2: One is that there's a very influential world of wealthy, populist,
19:51
S2: friendly donors and other figures around these conferences. And in
19:55
S2: a in a hub financial hub such as London, where
19:58
S2: because of Hanson's rise, she's treated as an absolute superstar
20:02
S2: in these circles. Now, there's a lot of energy in
20:05
S2: the European and North American populist world. She's a darling
20:09
S2: in that world. She wants.
20:10
S1: We're not allowed to. Australian politicians aren't allowed to take
20:13
S1: donations from overseas donors.
20:14
S2: Yeah, exactly. So. Well, yeah. Precisely. So there's I imagine
20:19
S2: there are wealthy Australians in that scene, such as Holly
20:22
S2: Valance and people around Valance and and Reinhart, perhaps. But also,
20:28
S2: I guess there's, there's people who can actually donate. And
20:31
S2: then there's powerful and wealthy and intelligent figures in the
20:36
S2: populist political world, in that part of the world where
20:38
S2: she can learn ideas, um, gather resources, find, uh, you know,
20:43
S2: recruit helpful pieces in the One Nation jigsaw puzzle to
20:48
S2: boost her brand here and attract, you know, thought leadership
20:51
S2: and advice and, and, and donors potentially if there are
20:55
S2: Australians there. So that that's, that's some of the thinking.
20:58
S2: And the other part that was put to me is that,
21:01
S2: you know, where Farage has. Nigel Farage has been a,
21:05
S2: you know, very potent figure there for 2 or 3
21:07
S2: years speaking about what they say are the ills of
21:10
S2: mass migration and political Islam. She's trying to latch on
21:15
S2: to some of that, to utilise the example of Britain
21:20
S2: and to show that to an Australian audience. Now, whether
21:23
S2: that lands or whether she appears to be off on
21:25
S2: a frolic, people will make their minds up.
21:27
S1: I mean, I suppose it makes her look kind of um. Yeah.
21:29
S1: She's accepted in these global sort of circles and it
21:32
S1: makes her look a bit more it gives her a
21:33
S1: higher profile. Maybe people like that, I don't know. We'll
21:35
S1: see if it pays any political dividends for her. Meanwhile,
21:39
S1: just quickly, there has been a fair bit of reporting
21:41
S1: about her Senate colleague, Malcolm Roberts, who is, you know,
21:44
S1: fellow fellow One Nation senator who has been, I would say,
21:48
S1: on the extremes of Australian political life for his entire
21:51
S1: tenure in the Senate. And he has often dabbled in
21:54
S1: conspiracy theories, anti-Semitic tropes. And we're seeing a lot of
21:58
S1: that reporting come out. He's sort of always done it,
22:00
S1: and he's always done these things that would might maybe
22:02
S1: cause a bit of outrage on Twitter or whatever, but
22:04
S1: it hasn't really been reported in mainstream media like ours.
22:07
S1: But now, you know, he's done stuff like he, he
22:10
S1: reposted he praised this really notorious anti-Semitic mural image, which
22:17
S1: people can read about on our websites. You know, a
22:20
S1: lot of it is really, really deep rabbit hole extremist,
22:22
S1: sort of right wing conspiracy stuff that if you don't
22:26
S1: if you're not across those tropes, then you sort of
22:28
S1: wouldn't even recognize them. He also praised Russian President Vladimir
22:32
S1: Putin for invading Ukraine. He's endorsed conspiracy theorist Alex Jones,
22:35
S1: who's a disgraceful individual from the United States, who, of course,
22:39
S1: said that the Sandy hook school massacre was a false
22:42
S1: flag operation. And he has insisted that the US was
22:45
S1: controlled by globalist sector bankers, which, as we know, is
22:49
S1: a common anti-Semitic trope. So, I mean, that's pretty embarrassing
22:53
S1: for One Nation, isn't it? Barnaby Joyce has tried to
22:56
S1: distance himself from Malcolm Roberts and says those views don't
22:58
S1: reflect the party, but clearly they do, because he's a
23:02
S1: one nation centre.
23:03
S2: And he's a he's a long time very close ally
23:06
S2: of Pauline Hanson in Queensland, um, who's been intrinsic to
23:09
S2: the One Nation show, even though he's not very well
23:11
S2: known in the public. I think you're right. It is embarrassing.
23:13
S2: And it, you know, there is a tendency in the
23:16
S2: left to label whatever view that a, you know, an
23:20
S2: activist may not like as misinformation or conspiracy, but this
23:23
S2: is proper deep end lunacy.
23:25
S1: It's crazy, crazy stuff. It's like, it's like your grandpa's
23:28
S1: gone mental because he spent too much time on YouTube. Like,
23:31
S1: it's really mad stuff.
23:32
S2: Yeah. That a that a party that wants mainstream attention
23:36
S2: would accommodate. This is a sign that it's not a
23:40
S2: serious organization which has boundaries. And Pauline Hanson admitted just
23:45
S2: in front of the seat, I'm I'm sitting in a
23:48
S2: month or two ago to us that her branches have been.
23:51
S2: And this is a quote from her. I've seen lots
23:53
S2: of people on Twitter criticize me for repeatedly saying this,
23:56
S2: but she said the words herself. She's been infiltrated by
23:59
S2: extremists in her branches. She's had to shut down four
24:02
S2: branches because she can't control the types of characters coming
24:05
S2: into her branches. Now, the suspicion is that white supremacist groups,
24:09
S2: potentially people with neo-Nazi links and others potentially with views
24:13
S2: similar to Malcolm Roberts. Now, those kinds of characters are
24:16
S2: absolutely on the fringe of Australian political debate. But if
24:19
S2: they see a party leader like Pauline Hanson, who's now
24:21
S2: grabbing mainstream attention, hanging out with someone like Tommy Robinson,
24:26
S2: then you could only imagine that people who have Malcolm
24:30
S2: Roberts view of the world might see an incentive to
24:32
S2: try and get themselves into one nation, because they see
24:35
S2: people like Roberts and Hansen Fraternising with Tommy Robinson and think,
24:38
S2: that's my home. So, you know, One Nation has had
24:42
S2: this amazing surge because of the coalition's ineptitude. And it's
24:45
S2: it's just been a, you know, in such a parlous position,
24:49
S2: labor has obviously activated a lot of people on the
24:51
S2: right to feel quite animated about politics. This has led
24:54
S2: to a surge to one nation. But as time goes on,
24:57
S2: if stories like the ones that you've referenced, written by
24:59
S2: our colleague Rob Harris keep emerging, you'd imagine that that
25:03
S2: would continue to chip away at One Nation, One Nation's
25:05
S2: mainstream credibility.
25:07
S1: Yeah, I'm aware that we haven't really talked about The
25:09
S1: Coalition or Angus Taylor this podcast, but we're going to
25:11
S1: we will next week, I think, because Angus Taylor is
25:14
S1: sort of trying to reclaim a bit of political space
25:16
S1: for himself. And he gave a speech to the Sydney
25:18
S1: Institute this this week that was laid out a little
25:21
S1: bit of his vision and gave a sharper attack on
25:23
S1: One Nation. We don't have time for that this week,
25:25
S1: but we will talk about it next week. Amongst many
25:27
S1: other fascinating topics, I'm sure. Um. Paul, when is our
25:31
S1: hot girl summer? When are we going to do that?
25:33
S2: I spent.
25:34
S1: When are we taking.
25:34
S2: This? I spent all my money in the US. I'm
25:36
S2: done for holidays.
25:37
S1: Okay, we'll have to wait for 2027 and take. We're
25:40
S1: going to take this show on the road to Sicily. Um,
25:43
S1: I look forward to that. And I look forward to
25:45
S1: next week too. And we'll just be in Canberra and Sydney.
25:47
S2: Thanks for thanks for talking. I'll talk to you next week.
25:50
S2: Bye bye.
25:54
S1: You can read all of our political news on our
25:56
S1: website dot com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by
26:02
S1: Kai Wong with help from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer
26:05
S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa
26:08
S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. Before you go, follow Inside Politics
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S1: and leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify.
26:15
S1: I'm Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.