Latest / Soul Salon with Ayandastood / 7: viral justice Ft. Ruha Benjamin

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7: viral justice Ft. Ruha Benjamin · Soul Salon with Ayandastood

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We need the loud and ferocious world builders and the quiet and studious ones.
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We don't need everyone to do and be the same thing.
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And so it's really about valuing all of the different ways that we engage,
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that activism and social change. There's not just one template.
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The sun shines out of you and into me.
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Hello sun shines and welcome to reimagining with I understood a podcast where we reframe,
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rethink and reimagine everything, standing in the way of love and liberation.
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I'm your host Iyenda and I am delighted, enchanted, ecstatic, overjoyed to have a slice of your
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precious time today.
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Welcome Ruha. It's so great to have you on. I'm so excited to have you here.
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Just a story as to how I found your book. So I was in my local bookstore and I was just kind of
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searching for inspiration. And this book screamed at me. The cover is just so inviting and beautiful.
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And I loved everything from the image to the language, the idea of viral justice.
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I think it's so masterful because not only are we in this moment of virality in terms of
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COVID-19, but also with the rise of TikTok and all these social media platforms. I just
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thought it spoke to me on so many different levels. And then the subtitle how we grow the world we
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want. I said, absolutely, I want to reimagine and grow a new world versus just critique the world we're
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in. And then of course I did the classic open because I'm like, I'm trying to read black scholars.
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And there you were. And you look fantastic. So I'm so excited to have you and so excited for
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everyone to go out and read this book. We must make this book go viral. So thank you for being here
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today. It's truly, truly an honor. I'm such a huge fan. And I just jumped at the chance to be in
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conversation with you. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. I love that. Well, thank you so, so much.
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I would love to start off with an introduction to you, how you're doing today. And then who are you
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in your own words? Yeah, I'm doing well today. I'm calling in on my book tour. I've been traveling
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around first throughout the states. And now in the UK and Amsterdam and the next stop will be one
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of my favorite places South Africa. Oh, my word. Yay. Open, fantastic. But I just feel every stop. I
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just feel so honored that people take the time out of their busy lives and just come and be in
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community and conversation. So as to who I am, I am a teacher. I'm a writer. I'm a mom. I'm a
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partner. I teach an African American studies department at Princeton University with wonderful
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colleagues who really share collective mission around what black studies is and can be. I think
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my primary identity and workwise is as a teacher. And so engaging with young people about growing
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the world they want is such a fantastic job description. So that's what I do most of the time.
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Wow, that is amazing. I love all that you've shared and all the identities that you hold. And
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it's so shines through this book. I love how you blend the personal, the political, the social,
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the sociological. And you also invite us to such a beautiful, imaginative project of what if I
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think you asked that so many times and I'm so inspired each time by it. So I would love to ask
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the question of what is viral justice? I'd love to start there. I'd be happy to. So viral justice
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is micro vision of change, getting us to really pay attention to value, water, all of the seemingly
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small things that people do to try to grow more justice and joy in the world. And so in the book,
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I'll go from education to healthcare to work to safety to science to our own backyards and front yards
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showing individuals and groups and movements both historic but many contemporary that are doing
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the everyday work of world building so that we don't have to look too on high from macro processes
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for people who are monopolizing power and resources to save us. We're doing that every day and I
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think that really became evident in the early weeks and months of the pandemic as more people
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relied upon and needed mutual aid as part of just survival. But those are traditions that have
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long been characteristic of many cultures around the world. It wasn't something that just grew
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up around COVID. And so the book and the idea of viral justice is in many ways a love letter
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to all of the people and places and movements that nourish us that help me personally grow,
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but also that I see as examples that we can adopt and adapt and diffuse in our own lives.
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I love that. I love letter of all the people who have nourished you and I love this language of
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nourishment, the plots, the alternative life forms in the way that God in metaphors pulsate the
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whole book. What is a plot and why is it important and I would love to learn how you came into this
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language of seeing this work. It's so inspiring. Thank you. Yeah, plotting is one of those words that
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has multiple meanings and nuances. When I was a youngster, my first love was poetry and so you're
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going to find a lot of poetic and poetry and poetics in the book because my view is that we can't
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just look to laws and policies in terms of creating a just world. We need to mean poetics by which I
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mean a new creative care and attention to how we treat and value one another. And so what we find
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with plotting is that it's literally getting our hands dirty right under our feet rather than
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looking to save or to do something way over across the world looking at our own backyards
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in front yard. So I give examples in my own neighborhood in LA where I grew up of a man who
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recognized that there was not readily access to fresh fruits and vegetables. And so he used the
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little dry patch of grass between the sidewalk and the street to create edible gardens. And so
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that's like a very literal example. But there are many more ways that people are working in
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their own backyards and front yards. But plotting also means thinking about like theater and the
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plot of theater and the scripts. I come out of my disciplinary background is sociology. Sociology
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borrows a lot from drama and theater to name social reality like we talk about gender roles or we
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talk about the front stage and the back stage of the theater as how we act in public and how we act
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in private. And so I come from this disciplinary tradition where theatrical language is employed.
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And so my invitation with plotting drawing on that tradition is for us not to simply carry on the
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scripts that we've been handed. Every generation is born into this world and we aren't starting from
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scratch. We're given ways of thinking and being that we inherit some of its great some of it we
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want to continue. But a lot of it we need to tear up and we need to write our own scripts in our own plots.
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And so that's the second meaning of plotting is really really plotting in terms of writing reality
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rather than just rehearsing and mimicking what we've been told. The last element of it is the idea
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of scheming together. You know when we're plotting you know for working together sometimes covertly
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in order to grow the world we want. And so this idea of collective action though although the book
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is an invitation to individuals to find where is your plot it's not about just relying on yourself
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and just doing things by yourself it's joining arms with others linking arms with people who are
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already doing the work so plotting is also about scheming with others for the collective good of all.
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And so the idea is working through the book in those different ways and I think ultimately it's
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about each of us finding our purpose and it doesn't just have to be one purpose it can be different
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times of life different parts of your development it can change but it's really tapping into what our
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unique contributions are and being fueled by that because I end the book by saying that we need
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the loud and ferocious world builders and the quiet and studious ones we don't everyone to do
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and be the same thing. And so it's really about valuing all of the different ways that we engage
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that activism and social change there's not just one template there's not just one caricature
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of what that can be it can take many different forms. Wow that was sensational your mind that is
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so beautiful I love this try these three legs of this idea of plotting I think that's so so so
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irresistible I think there's that Tony Cade Mambara quote that the artist job is to make justice
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they'll make the revolution irresistible and I feel like you're taking us through the theory and
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the reality of the all the multiple inequities of our world and also giving us this vision and
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this really inviting imagery and seeing that we can really feel so connected to because we all
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have a plot I think it's so powerful in that way that it's so accessible in the sense that it's
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about identifying what your plot is and how you can get your hands dirty but then also this idea
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of the narratives that we need to unpack and unlearn and re-learn as well and return to and then
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scheming together is just I mean that's just phenomenal speaks to me on a fun spiritual level that's
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so so beautiful thank you so much for sharing that with us and how did you come into this
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way of seeing it's really stunning yeah I think I can share that backstory by saying that the
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original title for this book and this project was viral racism because it was born at them this
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that twin crises of public health pandemic and also the policing the police violence that we
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experienced sort of converging in spring 2020 and I was trying to name this confluence this
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convergence of different types of crises at once and then the words of a mentor of mine echoed
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through my head from a previous few years previous and I remember they said you know Ruha we're
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often so good at academics of naming the things that are killing us naming the world that's
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harming people naming all of the things that we want to get rid of and we rarely carve out
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intellectual space name what we want what we want or of what we want to grow at in that previous
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project it really helped me center ideas like liberatory imagination which of course connects to
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this beautiful podcast and terms like abolitionist tools for the New York code on the previous book
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and so here thinking about that advice and that provocation from this mentor I thought well you know
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we're feeling an embodied level at a social and cultural level all of these death making structures
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and it's important to have vocabulary to be able to name it as a first step to dismantle it
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but we also need to name what we want to strive to more know what we want to grow and it's there
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that I made that shift to think okay in this book I don't want to just trace and track and name
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all of the things that are really harmful I want to give voice to the direction that we need to
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go into and so the shift from viral racism to viral justice and then also language like plotting
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and other terms and frameworks there that are about really thinking about what we want to water
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and seed and see manifest in the world that we inhabit wow that's so interesting that that was
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the original name I love that you made that evolutionary transformation I think it's the perfect
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framework and I love that in the book you mentioned spreading both joy and justice I think that's
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also so iconic and beautiful because I think so often we're expected that for this work to not be
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joyful or for us to not prioritize joy and I think it's so important to do that and just to give
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everyone a taste there's so many quotes that I absolutely love but one of them that relates to this
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you say reimagining the place of work in our lives also means understanding that rest like healthy foods
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clean water and fresh air is essential rest in other words is not an extravagance we must own
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or a getaway we must save up for the popular call for more self-care is enticing but what if our
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everyday lives did not require escape can you imagine I think that's so beautiful I'm
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obsessed oh my goodness I literally got I mean I highlighted so much of this book because
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it's just so enticing it's just amazing I'm like I'll follow you wherever you go
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so no I think and your use of the word like here the idea that it's enticing is really my goal
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it's this idea exactly the irresistible it's like if we want more people to link arms with us
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and join us in this work it can't just be at an intellectual level of understanding that's
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important but that doesn't get us out of bed every morning right give us fuel all the time at times
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it can but we really need something that it vivifies us and brings us to life and gives us the
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energy that we need and so so many of the groups especially the black women led groups that I
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in the book are always combining both the side of advocacy that what we can think of as like
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the public facing work but also the inner work the private work the work and so even in their names
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a lot of their names will combine like families for advocacy and healing families or women for
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this thing and that thing and both one will be public facing but the other thing will be about
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sustaining like the inner world the connections the care that's needed and I think that combination
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is such an example for all of us that we only look outward then we forget that we might burn out
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doing it but if we only look inward it's just inner and we're not working with others outward
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then we're likely to get consumed we're gonna burn up from the flames that we're not putting out
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around us so we have to think about it on multiple fronts and I think so many of the groups especially
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the black women led groups in viral justice are providing a wonderful model of what that can
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look like oh wow the examples were so stunning to hear about and as you mentioned like the black
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joy Sundays but then also the deep healing and an outward sorry like work and advocating for the
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end of policing the end of prisons and the end of a world rooted in in harm instead of love and
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joy and interdependence and so I'm just so grateful for this paradoxes or false dichotomies that
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you walk between wow it's so beautiful between the inner world and the outer world between
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we all speak about systemic change but can you talk us through your own experience it seems like
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you evolved on this approach especially as a sociologist so I'd love to hear your own personal
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journey in this line between yeah I'd be happy to as I mentioned trained as a sociologist this is
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you know that has worked so hard to counteract the hyper individualism especially US culture
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where we are taught to think of ourselves like as free-floating individuals no one convinces if
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you want something you can achieve it the American dream pull yourselves up by your bootstraps all
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ignoring the social forces and contexts and histories into which we're born and so the field
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of sociology provides really powerful frameworks and language to dismantle that delusion that we
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are just refloating individuals we are not in groups and they're not these forces trained in that
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tradition I felt at a certain point that I almost gone to the extreme where I would have almost
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like an allergic reaction of talk of individual responsibility or individual action came up I
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would be like no it's not about individuals not about individuals and so this the pendulum had
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swung to the other end where in this book I'm trying to really wrestle with the interrelationship
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the feedback between individuals and collectives to really invite myself and those who are
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reading to think about their individual role in larger processes to own our power to really
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channel our volition not waiting for something else to happen before we act or waiting for top-down
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permission before we contribute in some way that will tell you up until the very last word of the
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book until I read the final proofs I was still uncomfortable I remember getting one of the blurbs
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on the back of the book I won't say which one but one of them makes mention of something about
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it says justice can be contagious when it's personal and I even then I'm like no I don't want
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it to be personal yeah oh book so I write my editor and I say oh I don't like this line because I
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worry that this will be seen as ignoring what's around us the challenges that people face in making
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choices and I didn't want it to be like a self-help book trying to write through that ambivalence and
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write through that weariness that it's really trying to have a balance between a recognition of
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the reality that we all live in but really trying to own our power at the same time so it's not resolved
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let me just say that's so amazing it's interesting because you're writing for so many different types
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of stakeholders I can imagine an academia that might be difficult and also as an intellectual person
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it's just always hard to know but I'm curious because it almost seems like in the book you're never
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asking us to do something that you're not willing to do and you're not willing to do it publicly
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we all need to tend to our plots and then you'll say my plot is academia and then you'll share some
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deeply vulnerable personal thank you so much for your openness because it really brings what you're
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what you're advocating for to true life and I think it reflects that in a work that you're
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asking of us in such a tangible and visceral way but I'm sure in a way that was difficult to share
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a time so I'm curious your journey sharing your own stories and your family and everything in this book
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was that something you always intended to do when you said out like just would love to hear more about
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that journey I'll be happy to share I think from the very beginning like the very first sentence
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that's in the book that was first sentence in the draft back in April 2020 and so that first
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sentence I grew up in the White House so I was owning at that time like I am going to be incorporating
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my personal experience my family history where I came from the neighborhoods the communities that
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made me I didn't know at that point how the levels of that I wasn't sure how much I would share
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what I would incorporate but I knew always at the beginning that this was going to be a different
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kind of book than I read previously and one that was not a strictly academic book that other
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intellectuals were not my primary audience and so but even so at every stage it was a stretch
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like I felt stretched and I felt sometimes awkward sometimes quite liberating like to be able to
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make connections that I hadn't really thought about going to my mother and other family members to
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recall details that I didn't remember ask permission to talk about certain things that were not
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totally my story to tell so the process of putting this together and exposing myself as you
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said was like the method was this idea that if I'm asking the reader to do it I have to do it
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you know if I'm asking you to dig deep then I had some level have to dig deep that doesn't mean of
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sharing everything and like not everything is was relevant and also not all stories were
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mine to tell and so there was a lot of decision making in terms of where to cut up the story who
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to incorporate as we went but I think the final thing I'll say is that over the last few years in
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researching technology and science I think part of the conclusion that I've come to is that
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stories and narrative matters often so much more than things that are considered like discrete
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data and statistics in terms of raising awareness in terms of our ability to understand our social
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reality and so I've had a growing commitment to storytelling and narrative not just my own
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story but those of others and in this case I was trying to blend that in terms of the social
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analysis really incorporating story as the heartbeat of the book and the method communication
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rather than the distance observation that academics are often known for wow I love it and it comes
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through so strongly and you have a chapter on being exposed and I love what you say about how can
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we be vulnerable but not exposed can you tell us more about like that distinction absolutely this
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is the chapter that takes you into the story of my birth of my first son and being a young pregnant
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black woman and feeling the weight of the world in terms of all of the stereotypes and stigma are
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often put upon us and caring that around along with the baby and so feeling exposed to the hostility
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of the world and what that felt like but then at the same time being surrounded by individuals
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and community members that really buffered me from that hostile weather that the weathering
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effect of racism and classism and sexism etc and so this idea is that so often when we are the
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target of these hostilities we out of survival have to often buttress ourselves we have to become
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hard we have to grow thick skin we have to let things slide off we can't take it all in and so I
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invite us to think about how we can create different social relations so that people don't have to
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harden themselves in order to survive and so it's this idea like we should all be allowed to be
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vulnerable to often especially black women have to be superhuman and we're considered to have super
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human strength and not feel pain even physicians and medical students assume black people have
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actual literal thicker skin and don't prescribe pain medication and treatment at the same level
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because of the stereotypes of our hardiness which goes back to our history of being enslaved and so
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this book is saying part of the world that we want is that we can let down our guard we can create
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forms of care and community that allow us to soften that allow us to be vulnerable and share
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ourselves without being the target of any kind of harm whether physical emotional etc and so
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I'm using my experience of childbirth and some other experiences from my life in order to
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invite us into that world making thank you for doing that it resonated so strongly and I love
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the commitment to care and kinship and how we can really meaningfully be there for each other
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really think this book has met people at a moment where I mean I'm seeing online like such a
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conversation around community building and this focus on romantic love is the pure end of love
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and instead this idea of kinship and friendship both and of just committing ourselves to really
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being there for one another and I think this issue of vulnerability I also of course definitely
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connected to so deeply as black women and actually right before this interview I was like crying I
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said to myself I don't want to do this alone I had this realization and I was like it's so ironic
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that this book is encouraging me to rest and lean on people and so on but I feel my lesson was also
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just both asking for help and offering help whenever we can and need it is always so important
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that every micro level of action and one of the things I love in both the previous episode of this
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and also on your TikTok channel is like how you ask people to be nice like people it's like
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say I'm sensitive you know I'm sensitive about my shit and so to me that is such a beautiful
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example of being vulnerable rather than like say what you want I don't care I'm not
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going to bother it's like no it's going to bother me exactly and I feel like that is modeling the
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vulnerability that allows people to be more caring and allows us to watch our words and how we
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approach it but it takes you to say that for people to reciprocate so that mutuality grows
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out of your vulnerability and allows other people to be better selves process and so it's such a
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beautiful example of this thank you for saying that I love this I love that point of mutuality
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to that point of needing to go there you in the beginning I remember this hot opening you speak
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about cracking our hearts open and the power of that and I think many people's response to everything
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that happens in the world if they have the privilege to is to say well no I'm just going to be
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shut off to the ways of the world can you talk to us about that hot opening and what that generates
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in this project for us yes absolutely and so you know part of it is a discussion about the
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power of poetry and poetics to open our hearts we witness so when we witness any kind of harm or
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trauma or hardship not our own necessarily but those of others it's this idea of bearing witness
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to other people's pain that you're describing like we can't do it all the time because we would be
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in a constant state of crisis and it's party but we also shouldn't completely close ourselves off
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although we're witnessing pain to understand that that our heart breaking in that moment is not
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a negative it actually creates more surface room for us to connect with others oh wow
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so it's this idea like breaking something apart there's more of it there's more surface there's
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more opportunity to connect and so when you see someone's painter you're experiencing your own
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heartache thinking about that again as an opportunity to think about oh someone else has gone through
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this before how can I connect how can I support and likewise on a more macro scale when we think
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about all of the ways that injustice and oppression is produced from every angle part of the book
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is taking us into education and releasing and housing and health care it's coming to us from all
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of these different directions which can feel overwhelming one of the things I'm asking us to think
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about is if it's coming to us from all of these different directions that means that all of those
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are potential conduits for change no matter what we choose to do whatever what profession whatever
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line of work whatever corner of the planet that we're on the massiveness of the problem is also
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each a surface a channel a tentacle for us to contribute and we just have to choose one thing we
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don't have to do everything we don't have to spread ourselves in but we need to commit to think okay
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is my plot the preschool class is my parenting is my plot health care is my plot caring for elders
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in my community is my plot music and art is my plot hosting a podcast that opens up conversations
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and so really think understanding that we are doing this collectively we're not just ourselves we're
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all working on different fronts and so part of that's how part of the way I don't get overwhelmed by
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the magnitude of what we're up against is to understand that every angle there is also an opportunity
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for us to resist and reimagine the world that we can create wow I feel like it's so clear that
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you are such an artist and such an act both of these threads are so clear with you because it's
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like you take something that is daunting and frightful and scary and you turn it into something
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that is generative and gives up so much to move with and move through I think that's so powerful
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thinking about all these as actually as entry points was as things that we can devote ourselves to
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which is similar to what I feel like you've done with COVID where you took something scary daunting
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ugly something we want to banish and you said no what can we learn from this how is this a microvision
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for change and that is so inspiring and it allows us to not get burnt out as you say because
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there'll always be things coming our way and so there'll always be moments where we can harness the
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cracked open heart in the service area that really spoke to me I've never heard it put that way
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it's so true and I'm just really really in all of your mind and I'm really like and I should say
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on that in the book I'm quoting poet Mary Oliver who has a beautiful passage there that you'll see
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and so it's really drawing upon poets and all kinds of people throughout the book in order to
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share these visions yes I think that's also such an amazing example of how you put this theory
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in practice is you quote so many amazing thinkers I think there's 283 references to just phenomenal
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poets revolutionary thinkers artists academics across the board and I think there's so many examples
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I have in my mind where I'm I'm like wow I'm so grateful that that was included I think one of them
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that stands out is this ecosystem of a lake and the species and how it takes over and I'd love for
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you to walk us through that because I think is responsive to the question of like how do we change
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the world in general how does world changing happen and I thought that was so powerful so thank you
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for being in community with so many voices in this book and it really shines through and makes me
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feel like I've touched all these different lives and thinkers across the world from Chile to the US to
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Kenya to so many things so I would love to hear about the ecosystem and then maybe we could then
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go to the Siamese crocodiles which I also was so inspired by yes absolutely so this idea is from
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Eric Olenwright the late sociologist who wrote a book called how to be an anti-capitalist and
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also written wonderful work around this idea of creating real utopias like thinking of the pragmatic
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approach to building utopian institutions and organizations and communities and so he provides
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this really beautiful image to illustrate what change can look like you said imagine a lake with
30:10
all of these different species living in the lake and there's currently a dominant species that
30:16
he's naming as capitalism but we could also add white supremacy we could also add ableism we could
30:22
also add settler colonial and whatever the dominant way of organizing social life it kind of is
30:27
sucking up all of the oxygen and life in the lake and he said one way to think about change is that
30:34
in one corner of the lake we're nurturing alienated life forms we're nurturing things that
30:41
the dominant species but we're feeding them we're fostering we're creating a context in which
30:46
they can grow and grow and grow until finally they displace and push out the dominant species and so
30:53
real utopia is that he's writing about they might seem small they might seem fringe and a lot of
31:00
people don't know about them but they're being fostered and grown and people are caring for them
31:04
and cultivating them over time and so it has to go through that process right we can't jump from
31:11
nothing to everything we need time to grow and experiment with alternative life forms by which we
31:17
mean alternative ways of interacting with one another and creating educational approaches to education
31:24
approaches to health care and safety we had on the podcast you had Mia Mingus who's been so
31:30
instrumental in in transformative justice experiments and grow building and a lot of people don't
31:36
know about it but it's growing it's people are learning how to do it so that eventually as we see
31:42
the current form of punishment and policing that we have as a response to harm it doesn't work
31:48
it doesn't produce the results that it even markets itself is doing and very soon people
31:54
will be looking around like we can't use that what other alternatives do we have and we need a
31:59
response we need to be able to say well we've been trying this little thing in the corner of the
32:03
lake over here let us show you how it works let us introduce it and so it's that idea of spending
32:11
time growing things that aren't in the center that aren't dominant but they need time to grow and so
32:16
Eric Olenwright offers a really beautiful vision of how that can look that I am offering the book
32:21
that's stunning I'm obsessed with that and the time of Mia's work I'm curious if you have any
32:27
favorite or life forms that you want to really bring to light I think you mentioned mutual aid
32:30
in the book which is as you said COVID brought many of these into more of the main like conversation
32:36
I mean as you said it's mainstream oh my god yes you see I'd love to get any of your reflections either
32:43
on observing that journey of mutual aid or others yeah in that same chapter on exposed I talked
32:51
about how one of the things that buffered me from the hostility that often it is targeted to
32:57
black birthing people but also especially in the conventional approach to medicine where the mortality
33:02
rate of black women is much higher than other groups and the infant mortality rate similarly
33:08
and so I talk a lot about black midwives and doulas and their role in fostering a different
33:15
approach to childbirth that it is more life affirming that grants autonomy to birthing people
33:21
that really produces generally better outcomes whether we're talking about home births
33:26
birth centers or in the hospital we have empirical data that shows when you have pregnant
33:33
teenagers and you assign half of them a doula and half of them don't the ones with a doula have
33:39
better overall outcomes and so this is an example of an alienated life form because in some states
33:47
it's even outlawed that you can't deliver babies at home in the state that I delivered in Georgia
33:53
they're still fighting to pass a bill that would grant them licenses to deliver at home and yet
34:00
we can look to their approach and think about how it could influence and shape health care more
34:06
broadly not even just reproduction but all kinds of health care and so one of the terms that I
34:12
introduce that I draw from the literature is called the doula effect that means the effect that
34:18
doulas have not just at a conceptual level but literally like if you're going through extreme
34:24
pain and someone is sitting across from you holding your hands massaging your shoulders looking
34:30
into your eyes being present with you making eye contact letting you know that they are bearing
34:37
witness to your pain trying to soothe you your body literally responds by producing endorphins
34:43
by producing things that lower your pain threshold because this person is present with you now
34:50
if we take that example think about it's not just applicable in the context of childbirth all kinds
34:56
of other health context but also in life more generally when we're experiencing not just physical
35:02
pain emotional pain spiritual pain when we're going through hardship how can we implement this doula
35:09
effect in other areas of our life where we can bear witness to one another when we're going through
35:15
and literally lower the pain like your body responds and then you stress response that can be
35:21
more positive in the long run and so this is an example of a group of people with a long deep
35:27
tradition in black communities that have been passing on this knowledge of how to approach child
35:32
birth for generations even though it's been outlawed and now during COVID when many people did not
35:39
want to give birth in the hospital because they didn't want to expose themselves to the virus
35:43
they started looking around for midwives but the midwives that we had we didn't have enough
35:48
they were overlooked they said we don't have enough room for all of these people who now suddenly
35:53
want to use a midwife so some states like New York began to quickly try to license birth centers
36:01
and other facilities so this was an example of COVID opening up a space for us to rethink our
36:07
approach to child birth and that a lot of people realize oh there's always a small subset of
36:12
high-risk pregnancies that people may be better off having access to certain kinds of technical
36:18
interventions in a hospital setting but even they would benefit from a doula by their side as an
36:24
advocate but the vast majority of pregnancies are not an illness that require that all of that
36:31
high-tech intervention that has this cascading effect so in that case how can we learn from this
36:37
black birthing tradition and really try to grow it and make it mainstream make it take over the lake
36:44
as it were so that more people will have the benefit of this wow that just rejuvenated all the
36:49
cells inside of me thank you that is so inspiring i love the doula effect and i love the language
36:54
that you put to it with bearing witness and really being there and i think that's such a beautiful
36:59
vision for how we could be relating and supporting one another to date we all i think feel either
37:05
that we can give or need on one side of that support and that deep bearing witness and i'm curious
37:11
if you have any thoughts on how people can bring the doula effect to life in their day-to-day lives
37:18
both on either side yes absolutely and so you know part of it is requires us to slow down a bit
37:26
so it connects back to the work chapter where we want better work conditions but we also want
37:31
the option to rest because you can't be there for other people if you can't even be there for
37:37
yourself and even take time to breathe and carve out space so all of these things are interconnected
37:44
so change in one area really has a ripple effect in another area and so i think part of it is
37:50
really valuing our own time and other people's time slowing down being able to bear witness
37:57
i will say that it's still a lot of work for me to do what i'm describing because i am
38:04
internal processor so when i'm going through something i don't want to talk it out with someone
38:09
else i don't want anyone to bear witness i'm just going to go ahead and just leave me alone for
38:15
however many hours to figure it all out and then i'll come out at the same time when someone does
38:20
mere back at me like oh i see you're going through this i have a friend who's such a gifted like
38:27
whatever you're going through she can add words to it and just mere back at you like exactly
38:31
you need to hear it's such a gift and i'm like i didn't know that i needed to do that like my phone
38:38
was just stolen as i on this trip and no i'm like i can deal with it i'm detached now i'm trying to
38:43
talk myself out and not being traumatized by this experience and this little text from my friends
38:49
that's like oh this is so terrible i what did it like she basically like says what i'm feeling and
38:55
then it helps me move through it is this very small example but essentially it's like acknowledging
39:01
yes someone is going through you know like it somehow that experience of being seen is like really
39:09
the first step to whatever healing whatever processing one needs to go through even for those
39:15
of us who think that we don't need it like me it's like i get surprised when i'm like oh i really
39:22
did need to hear that or have someone have that a co-presence with me or company me this idea of
39:28
accompanying each other through the good and the bad of life and so this is just a way of
39:35
slowing down and just seeing each other what we're going through not trying to give a bunch of advice
39:40
exactly i see that you're going through this and this is so yes i definitely connect to that
39:47
because i think there've been moments where a friend has shared something with me and i've sent a
39:50
voice note really just being with them and just repeating how difficult it was in the different
39:55
angles of it and then being surprised by how much that then means to someone but then when i'm
40:00
on the receiving end i'm like of course it's just so nice when we're not fleeing from discomfort but
40:05
really sitting with it hitting with this and it's something we're yeah we're trained out of doing
40:11
and i think it's just beautiful to have people in our lives who do that for us and to give that to
40:16
someone and to know that we actually have such a powerful resource that everyone today listening to
40:21
this has is when people share their difficult experiences to really play that out with them and
40:27
be with them in it and i love what you said about co-presence i think that's a stunning way to put it
40:33
and often we don't feel i guess entitled to or deserving of someone who's just co-present with us
40:40
and it almost seems like that's a deeper ideally we are able to find many different forms of love but
40:45
if we can find people who are co-present who are willing to accompany us through life in whatever
40:50
context i think that's just stunning and i'm curious you are tending to so many year know you have
40:56
your plot but you seem to have deep connection all around you you've tended to that you've created
41:01
that i mean family and how you describe in the acknowledgments your relationship at Princeton with
41:06
the faculty of the department of african-american studies and then your friends you just mentioned so
41:11
how can we be that like how can we tend to and really nurture these different parts of our lives
41:17
in a way that is generative and sustaining in a limited context of time and and so on totally
41:23
and it's really something that i've only felt like i've been able to do in a sustaining
41:31
way in the last like five or six years especially that that grad school was a time when
41:38
i put my head down and i didn't tend to any plots other than school and having small children
41:44
and i felt like almost cut off a lot of my relationships and friendships which had a very
41:50
things that could have sustained me and just meered and given me fed me i cut them off because i
41:56
thought i don't have time for this all i can do is this and in some ways i feel like i regress
42:01
i became almost like an emotional second grader or kinder gardener because i didn't know how to have
42:07
just a deep conversation with another human being anything that got too emotional i was like oh i
42:12
can't it would make me very awkward and uncomfortable because i wasn't going inward myself so there's
42:18
no way i could sit with someone else and share at that level so part of it was coming out of that
42:23
experience and realized wow i did this because i thought i had to but it was a choice and it was not a
42:29
good choice to cut off these different things that were sustaining and so learning from that and
42:35
slowly i feel like growing back those aspects of my own sort of inner life tending to my inner
42:42
garden it's like a place that you need to be able to retreat to when the world is like too much you
42:48
need to be going intending to that inner garden when hardships come you need a place to go into
42:54
and so it was partly the bad experience of doing the opposite and making it a priority thereafter
43:00
whether it's at work and actually having like real relationships with people at work and
43:06
respect and neutrality at least having like people in my community who have nothing to do with work
43:11
being in community with them so it's not so a lot of times we can be very instrumental in our
43:16
relationships like what can this person give me it's all spend time with them so having a whole
43:21
host of friends that are nothing to do with work that i can spend time with and learn from and be a
43:26
student with myself my faith the behind faith and my navely and and definitely my friends like
43:33
spending time over winter and summer break like making it a priority planning it out
43:39
what a time am i'm going to spend and i think just realizing like that's the for not burning out
43:44
is like really finding time for all of those different things and not feeling bad when i'm not
43:49
doing the other things or when i'm not doing work and so i think ultimately it's like just being
43:54
very kind with ourselves not being having that little voice in our head not having it be so harsh
44:00
like why aren't you doing this why haven't you accomplished this oh yes oh i'm going to turn that
44:05
down volume on that down and the kind voice turning it up
44:08
yeah a lifelong lesson to that exact point of that inner voice i'm curious how we can know that
44:18
we have our plots and returning to it this notion of enoughness because we're also in this broader
44:23
messaging around capitalism and of maximizing and it's difficult to know especially because even
44:29
as you're focusing on your one entry point the other entry points are loud as well and so sometimes
44:34
you might feel for example as a creator i'm like you never feel like you're ever doing enough and
44:39
it's really hard to even though i know in theory i know all the theory and i know i should rest and
44:43
i know you mentioned that your husband reminds you to actually rest not decide that in isolation
44:48
like how can we establish communities and get advice around what we're doing and how we're
44:53
attending to our plots yeah in some ways the answer is there what you said at the end which is
44:59
not just relying on ourselves to make those judgments and those calls but having that reinforcement
45:06
around us the people around us that remind us the sister friends the partners the kids that are
45:13
essentially just mirrors to say we don't love you and value you for the things that you produce
45:20
the things that you're putting out even the word creator it's a beautiful word but it also has
45:26
an element of never enoughness because always be creating so true as opposed to just being so
45:34
i think part of it is to really again that inner garden is like where you're worth in your value
45:40
don't come from the things that you do but it's like who you are in the world and who you
45:46
and making sure that you have people closest to you really value for who you be what you do
45:53
and where who you be is not all pretty going back to the last podcast right about what's ugly it's
46:01
like the people around me who see my quirks and my bad habits all of the stuff that's not cute
46:08
or pretty about my character and the things that i'm working on but still love me and value me
46:13
like they get all and i think that is so liberating because you realize oh you love me and value me
46:20
even though you know that right no you see that you know what i mean and so that allows you to like
46:26
again take off all of the things that we wear the roles shed all of the expectations and just
46:33
in that being and again you can kind of have to have that inner voice that is walking you through
46:39
that because everything or else around us is like literally in academia it's the fuel of academia
46:46
is anxiety so we're never ever supposed to feel like we have arrived never i don't care what your
46:52
title is full full full professor endowed endowed with a hundred names a billion grants this genius
47:00
that award whatever thing you achieve then someone will say we'll have you got this next day
47:07
you started this and so me witnessing that it's almost like you reach a top and then a shoot opens
47:13
up and a new ladder shoot oh no that's really in the top you get the top and then a new hatch opens
47:18
up and another ladder like that's like the image of academia but it's supposed to be like that
47:24
because if you didn't feel that anxiety you wouldn't continue to generate the stuff that it needs
47:30
right similarly for other industries it's not unique to academia other industries where there's
47:35
just a constant demand for more more more more knowing that you will never ever feel like you've
47:42
arrived or you're enough according to those standards of whatever profession you're in once you
47:48
realize that then you get to make a choice okay do I keep climbing constantly or do I decide oh
47:55
you know what that's nice that you put a new ladder there but I'm gonna sit right here so it's
48:02
partly a recognition that the anxiety is the point a lot of these professions and then once
48:09
you realize that then you have to decide do you want to live in that anxiety and that sense of
48:14
disease the rest of your life which many people die of die because of those stressors or do you
48:21
decide to find your fuel and decide to feed yourself and to do work in a different context wow
48:28
I love the imagery of the ladders that definitely spoke to me and the anxiety is the point
48:33
I wanted to ask you with these scripts that's another type of script that we need to
48:37
unlearn or challenge or interrogate as a teacher mother a scholar of technology in general as well
48:45
as you are doing your work and in the world are there any cultural scripts that you're observing
48:51
that you think we need to unlearn to grow the world that we want oh I'm sure there's so many
48:56
it's related to what we were just talking about but it's certain metrics of success and
49:02
accomplishment certainly that I think especially thinking about in relation to my sons now as they
49:08
make choices they're 19 and 21 making choices about what to do after school and there's certain very
49:15
well-worn scripts about what paths you are taking what's deemed a respectable path one that people
49:22
say oh yes versus ones where they're like oh what are you going to do yes so you can see when
49:31
you're off script by people's reaction to you you know and so now it's like where I have my
49:39
son that's in his final year of college seeing like really trying to communicate to him and
49:46
countering all of the scripts that the friends and people around him are in terms of the narrow
49:52
choices and trying to really communicate that whatever he chooses especially that he's considering
49:59
things that are off script we support him we value him even though it's non-traditional we are
50:05
excited we think it's good so part of it is like when you're doing something off script you really
50:11
need the people closest to you to affirm you to press you again do the effect like we see doing
50:17
something difficult we see your taking risks and we're here with you we're going to walk with you
50:23
and so this is what we can do for each other to give when we want to tear up the script the
50:28
descriptive accomplishment or success especially a lot of people that go into creative fields you're
50:34
taking a chance you don't know what the end is going to be you know truly the reason why there are
50:38
scripts is because there's a beginning middle and an end right and you're going to live happily
50:43
ever after at least that's what you're told and so when you're choosing something else that hasn't
50:47
been put in stone yet you're like oh I don't know how this is going to end but I'm still going to
50:52
follow and do these things in that case you need the people around you to be like okay we're going
50:58
to go on this plot with you we're going to walk past with you we got your back if you fall if
51:03
something happens don't worry we're going to be there for you and so this is a really strong
51:08
cultural script about success and accomplishment that I think can be even more oppressive when
51:15
you're from any marginalized group because the stakes are higher oftentimes you have all your whole
51:20
family is counting on you to get to that end of the script so that you can support the family or
51:26
what have you so the stakes are higher and so that's why we need to create like social safety nets we
51:32
need communities that can hold us when we fall or when we're doing something out of the ordinary
51:39
non-traditional absolutely that is so true and I'm so grateful that they have you to play that
51:45
role I think it's so important and something that so many people don't have I'm so grateful that my
51:50
mom is like that exactly where she's so supportive of me and so just there to catch me and with me as
51:56
I evolve and as I change and contemplate my place in this world yes I know mom's are truly something
52:02
else like I'm just so in awe of that and I think it's amazing and also just I have a best friend who's
52:07
also like this who helps me imagine if you are contemplating an idea for yourself sometimes you jump
52:12
to what could go wrong and having those people in your life who's like but what could go right like
52:16
its abundance mindset you have everything you need and we got you no matter what is so critical
52:21
so I'm so happy that they have that and that's beautiful and so generative I love love love this
52:26
this has been so sensational the last segment I have is fill in the blank questions to close there's
52:31
five of them and so bad at these I'm so no so the first one is I want people to reimagine
52:40
I want people to reimagine relationships oh my word the thing is that I then want to break the rules
52:47
and ask what you can't to me love means to me love means seeing and valuing the ugly wow I feel
53:01
safe when I feel safe when I'm seeing I wish I had known sooner that that I need my friends
53:10
ooh beautiful and finally I dream of a world where we can all take risks and reimagine beautiful thank
53:19
you so so much for being with us Ruha it's been so amazing getting to know you and please
53:24
everyone as you can tell if you haven't already bought the book by now I don't know what we are
53:28
doing if you can and I'll be sharing more my tick talk about this book because I'm so excited about
53:33
it and I want it to end I love how the book starts with your Octavia Butler quote all that you
53:39
touch you change all that you change changes you so thank you so much for changing us with your words
53:45
and your deeply vulnerable personal narrative and perspectives and generosity today I'm obsessed
53:49
with this book and I'm so grateful that I get to play a role in its story big or small and I think
53:56
there's a moment in your book where you're reading Michelle Alexander's book and you realize you
54:01
get to assign it and I was like oh my goodness I can do that gets a different it's like we're all
54:06
tending to our plots like look at us and I'm like that's so cool and I love the impact that that's
54:10
how I'm showing so many people so yes the new Jim Crow also changed my life and I thought about
54:15
where I was when I read that book so thank you so much I'm so excited to share this book with my
54:20
audience and I just loved meeting you so it's just been amazing to get to know you you're sensational
54:25
and I'm so happy you're going to Johanna's book that's so cool exactly sent you some presentations
54:30
yes thank you oh my gosh wow that's amazing
54:38
that's it Sunshine's thank you so much for listening to reimagining with i understood a
54:43
podcast where we reframe rethink and reimagine all things standing in the way of love and liberation
54:50
please follow my work on substack at i understood dot substack dot com and subscribe if you have
54:55
the means as well as on tiktok and instagram at i understood I would absolutely love to hear from
55:01
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55:18
and nourish each other