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IFH 741: How to Break into Television Writing with Steven Vitolo · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Indie Film Huscle
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Podcast, Episode number seven forty one. Beware of advice. Even this Carl
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Sandberg broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast,
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where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in
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Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am
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it, just head over to www dot filmbiz book dot com. That's film
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bizbook dot com. Today's episode, we're going to go deep into the dark
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world of television writing, how to break in what happens inside, the politics
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of what happens inside from a point of view of a writer. Last episode
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we talked about with Daniel Knoff, who is a showrunner, and that I
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want to talk to him about it from his point of view. But now
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we're going to talk about it from a writer's point of view. Someone who
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worked their way in, was a writer's assistant and did everything they had to
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do to get in and see how the inner workings of a network show actually
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is un till he finally got a shot to write a full episode of the
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series. And so today's guest is Steve Vottolo. And Steve has been a
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writer's assistant, a script coordinator, and also a writer on some big shows
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like Hot in Cleveland, Crowded, and Blackish, and I wanted to have
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Steve on the show to kind of get his perspective on what it's really like
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to break into a writer's room to get on a show and really, you
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know, make it, make some noise as a writer, and there's so
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much craziness that happens with revisions, against revisions and other things that happened while
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you're in the writing process that he actually created a software that helps writers in
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the massive amounts of revisions in television and it's called Scriptation, and we're going
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to talk a little bit about that as well. So without any further ado,
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please enjoy my conversation with Steven Battolo. I like to welcome to the
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show Steve Vittolo. How are you doing, brother, I'm good, Thanks
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for having me, Thank you man for coming on board. I don't know
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much about the television world, in television writing world, happy to fill you
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in. So that's why you are on the show. I know, that's
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exactly So I'm dying to hear about all the interworkings of network shows and writers'
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rooms and all that kind of good stuff. But first of all, how
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did you get into the film business. Well, I went to Boston University
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and graduated college communication, did a film and TV degree, So did that
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whole thing. And as far as the actual degree, how useful is it?
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Not at all? Has anyone ever asked you in this industry to show
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you No, No one's like, oh, you've got you know. Here's
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where it does help there. It helps in the connections that you make while
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you're there. So for example, I before I moved out to Los Angeles,
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I stayed at home for a year just to save money so I could
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move out to Los Angeles to eventually blow that all in like three to six
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months. But where it really helped is that there was a contingency of people
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that moved out right after college and they all got the crappy jobs that no
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one wanted to get. So they were all pas and interns and things like
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that. So there was such a big network at BEU of current people and
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also alumni, so that's where it really helps you. But no one looking
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at your GPA for a film job and seeing what school you went to,
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although maybe if you're a Harvard graduate that you know you kind of have a
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leg up anywhere in any industry. Really, do you think Harvard Film School
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really going to open the doors too much? Well, it does in certain
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writers' rooms for sure. Oh No, in writer's room is that I actually
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saw that documentary about the Harvard Lampoon and those guys. It's almost like a
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club, a fraternity. If you're in the lampoon, you automatically cut the
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line in a lot of ways. Yeah, that is true. I'm not
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all the time, but they have a big leg up and they'll get meetings
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and they'll get signed and things like that. So if you're gonna go to
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Harvard, yeah, you should put that on your resume. No. I
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mean I went to full Sale Film School in Orlando, and not once has
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anyone ever asked me in the entire time I've been doing this, can I
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see your degree? Right? Yeah? I mean you hope you get good
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training and you're able to do what you want to do. I mean,
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I think if you're going to film school, you probably have an I don't
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think anyone goes to film schools like I don't know what I'm going to do.
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But usually when you go there, it's like, Okay, I want
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to direct, I want to write, I want to produce, or maybe
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you want to do all those things and hopefully you get the training at the
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school to do that, and then you know, when you move out,
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some of your friends or schoolmates will be there helping you. And then it's
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a connections game, it really is, it really is, and a talent
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game. Hopefully the talent is it's unfortunately sometimes it's still like the lower lower
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on the totem pole sometimes, but a lot of times it's like those connections
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do get you in the door, but you have to stay in the door
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exactly, and that's where the talent and experience and things come in. Yeah,
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you also have to get your foot in the right door. When I
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so, when I moved out here, I was, you know, I
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take any job, So I started in reality television and award shows. My
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very first PA job was on Jamie Kennedy's show Blowing. It was called blowing
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up. It wasn't. I love the way you said that. It was
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like, it's called blowing up. I know, sell it, sell it.
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I think it was on MTV. I have really bad memory, but
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I think it was an MTV show. And I remember the first day I
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was there. My job was to hold an umbrella because we were outside,
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so my job was to hold an umbrella over Jamie Kennedy so he wouldn't get
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sunburnt. Nice as you were close to the star. So that's not bad,
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I know. And that so that was the glamorous it was. You
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know, it's funny I had that I got that job. It was like
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my second day there, and you know, my friend at college was like,
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hey, you want to be a PA for this thing? And it's
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like great, glamorous everything, and then and yeah, that's my job.
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So from there, how do you parlay that into the next stages of your
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career? Yeah, so I kind of was a PA for a while,
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and I was working in reality and live event shows. I eventually because I
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did a couple of you know, PA jobs like here and there, just
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for a couple of days. Because I didn't really have like a full time
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PA job. It's like take a gig here, take a commercial there,
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that sort of thing. I eventually got on the Academy Awards as a PA.
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See, I would killed. I would have killed for a job like
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that coming up. I would have killed for that. It's act. It
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was a great experience. I mean, it's not like they prepped three to
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four months before. It's crazy how long they prepped for this show. I
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had no idea, So I was just and when you're when you're a PA
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on that show for the production office, and there are so many different departments
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that don't have their own PAS, you're doing everything for everyone, so you're
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you're really you know, an errand person for that. And so that was
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my first you know, quote unquote steady PA job, which was like three
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or four months and then and I actually kind of went back to that the
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next year and the year after just because it worked out that I wasn't working
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at the time, because that's that's the life, right So but eventually,
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because I had that experience and because it it was you know, you're involved
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in so many different departments, and it's it's kind of a harder PA job
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than most I would think. I mean, I haven't had that many,
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but it seemed like it. I was able to get a PA job on
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the pilot for the Middle, which I wanted to get. I wanted to
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be a TV writer. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
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and now back to the show. So I wanted to get in scripted
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TV. And a friend of mine who had moved on from Piang found their
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job opening and referred me, and I was able to get that job.
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And it was actually not the Middle show that was on for nine years or
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wherever it was on with Patricia Heaton. It originally starred Ricky Lake. Wow,
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yes, I was on that one. I think that was two thousand
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and seven. It started Ricky Lake and a bunch of other actors and it
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didn't get picked up. It went through a redevelopment. They got Patricia Heaton
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I think in two thousand and nine, and then it got picked up and
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it went But yeah, how many people know that that it was not It
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was not in its current form. Yeah, the script was actually pretty much
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the same. But yeah, I mean actors, man, you get Patricia
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heat and then and you're probably gonna go a little while off off and running.
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Yeah, you're off and running and what were you doing? What were
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you doing? And would you just be PA? Still? Yeah, I
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was an office PA, and I was able to parlay that, you know,
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very luckily into a writer's PA job, which was you know, people
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are dying to get into the writer's office and I was very lucky to get
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in there. Actually, my production coordinator was letting the pas go by picking
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names out of a hat because she couldn't decide who to let go, and
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my name, of course, was the first name to get picked out of
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a hat. So like I was because on a pilot, you know,
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you're only working a certain period of time and then it you know, pick
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ups and all that stuff. So so I was let go first. My
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production coordinator said, I feel so bad because I was also like brought on
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last. So I had like the shortest amount of time and she's like,
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but I'll find something for you, and I'm like, okay, sure,
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And then you know, a day later she got me an interview as a
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writer's PA on Hannah Montana Nice and the next day I was hired. And
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that was really a crazy whirlwind and I was finally after a few years in
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the writer's office which you just want to get your foot in the door there,
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let's be with those people. And it was a great show. So
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then tell me what is it like being in the writer's room, in the
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writer's department of a network show well as opposed to something that's are you saying
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as opposed to cable or just like a just I know you'd been a specific
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about network or TV, but like I know, Hannah Montana was cable,
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but you've worked on network shows as well. I'm assuming they're not very different.
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Yeah, they're the same, especially now streaming services. How many the
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shows are there now? Two hundred and fifty three hundred? Uh? Double
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that? Oh? Is it? Is? It? Is it really that
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much now? Like five or six hundred? It's I believe it's over six
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hundred now, Oh my god, that's nice. I think that. And
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that's just us. I mean Netflix, I mean you you turn on Netflix
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and every week there's something new that they've spent twenty five million dollars on and
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Amazon two and Amazon two, and you've had you had no idea, You've
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never heard of it, right, and like and has this star in it?
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Like what it has a star in it? And and like it must
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you must have skipped the trades that day, and it's like, oh,
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so they just made the show for like twenty five million dollars. I literally
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was just watching. I was on YouTube the other day and I saw this
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trailer for like The Outlawing starring Chris Pine, and it's like this Brave Heart
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style epic on Netflix. Okay, I've never even heard of this. It's
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about Bruce. Oh, it's something the Bruce who's a Scottish guy, and
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it's basically Braveheart again but different. And I'm like, ten episodes, no,
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no, no, no, this is not this is not a show.
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This is a movie. But there's shows like that that come out all
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the time too, like who's this? How did this happen? Where did
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this come from? It's constant all the time, so it doesn't it doesn't
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surprise me that six hundred episodes or six of the shows are are being scripted
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right now. So it's a good time to be trying to get into the
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writer's room. It's a good time to be working in the industry, for
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sure. There's definitely more opportunities. When I first started working, there was
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a certain cycle where you had pilot season, then you didn't work and then
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shows picked up and if it was canceled, which after Hannah Montana, I
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went to a show called Do Not Disturb. You probably haven't heard of it
14:43
because it was the first show canceled that season. Of course it was We
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filmed six episodes, we aired three, and it was like it was at
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I live in Culver City and it was at Fox, and it was like
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a for me, I don't have to travel into Hollywood to work, and
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like this is going to be great. I'm gonna bike to work, and
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then two months later, bye bye bye bye. Yea. There is there
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still a pilot season. I mean there's some sort of pilot season now,
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like in jan It starts in January, right, Yeah, for network networks
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still doing the pilot season, it starts around January. Sometimes early pilots can
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go like November, December, but basically like January, February, March,
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you shoot the pilots and then pick up. So yeah, there's still that
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in network. But with Netflix they're not doing pilots so they go straight to
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series. And with Cable because when I first started, Cable wasn't what it
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was either. Right now, there are so many shows on cable that those
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are all I mean, there's no set seasonal thing for that. There shows
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popping up all the time. So there's definitely more opportunity now than there was,
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you know, ten years ago. So what is it like to be
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in a writer's room and any kind of show? Yeah, yeah, fantastic.
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If it's fantastic if you have nice writers and funny writers and your boss
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is great, and I've had I've been very lucky in that I've had great
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bosses. So I worked on Blackish most recently, and Kenya Barris created the
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show, and he's just so brilliant. He'll just come in the room and
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just you know, sort of Jedi mind everything into what the story needs to
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be. And you know, a writer that has a clear voice is refreshing
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because you know, you know exactly what he wants. And also Corey Nickerson
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ran the room, and she you know, she's able to address notes and
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just the way she can craft a scene and get us through the script,
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make it great and funny and get us out of there so we're not working
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till two and three in the morning. Is a real talent and everybody loves
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her for that. So if you're working in a writer's room like that,
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it's great. You know, I've worked on some show. When you work
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on a show that's a first season multi camera show, for example, there's
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a lot. First of all, the multi camera schedule is not great for
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writers. It's fantastic for actors, but for writers. Actors are often rehearsing
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at two, three, sometimes four, and then after that rehearsal in the
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writer's room, you go back and you rewrite the entire script. So you're
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starting the rewrite at four or five, and it's not just your notes,
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but it's network and studio notes that you have to address. If something's really
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not working, it could be a problem. If it's a first season show,
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there's going to be a lot of scrutiny so that you can start working
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till you know, one or two in the morning. But luckily I haven't
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had that experience too much, and I've worked for great people like Kenya and
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Corey. Suzanne Martin I worked with. She created Hot in Cleveland and a
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show called Crowded. Victor Fresco, who I worked on for Man Up and
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Sean Saves the World and now he's got Santa Clarita Diet on Netflix he's just
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a great guy, fantastic person, nicest boss you could have. So yeah,
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being in the rooms great if people in the room are great. So,
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what are like the politics of the room, Like you said, the
18:30
show, the showrunner of the executive producer pretty much is in charge right right,
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and then there is someone who is in charge of the room underneath them,
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kind of like a sometimes sometimes or sometimes not. Yeah, it depends
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on the show. Usually on a multi kam show because of the way it's
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structured, the showrunner is running the room. Because as writers on a multi
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camera show, you do everything together. So you go down to the set
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together, you watch rehearsals together, you come back together. So the person
19:03
who created the show, usually the showrunner is running every aspect of it.
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If you work on a single camera show, because it shot like a movie,
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sometimes that person will be on set. Sometimes it depends how it's structured.
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And then there's a number two so kind of the I don't know,
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there's no like real title, but sure we get basically kind of idea and
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then yeah, and that person will be will be running the room. And
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then what happens is then the showrunner will come back to the room. If
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they've been on set, and then we'll review everything that we've done in the
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room kinda how it works? Now, how are ideas incorporated in an episode
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in the writer's room? Like, are people throwing out ideas? Do people
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go away write an episode, come back and then get it beat up?
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How does it work? Yeah, it's different. There's no one way to
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do it. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now
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back to the show. But in general, everyone breaks the story together.
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That's how it's done. I would say for ninety something percent of writer's rooms
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is that either someone comes in with the story or we just start pitching around
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funny why I work in comedy, so we just start pitching around funny ideas
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or something that happened and if we could build a story around it. But
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everybody for the most part is sitting around a table breaking the story together.
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And it's done in stages. First it's you know, a rough outline or
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some notes, and then you make a more complete outline. And then on
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Blackish, for example, we would all come up with the story together.
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We would have on whiteboards, we would write the scene, what happens in
20:56
the scene, any jokes that we like, and it would be you know,
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boards full of the story, sometimes three, and then we would give
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that to the writer and the writer would turn that into an outline. The
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outline would be reviewed by the showrunner or some of the writers and the studio
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and the network. They would get notes, they would write a draft,
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and that draft then comes into before it goes anywhere, the writer's draft comes
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into the writer's room, so it gets distributed to all the writers. The
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writers read it, make notes, and then we talk about the draft,
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and then we make changes in the room. So that's generally how it's done.
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It's not like a hard and fast rule. I've worked on shows,
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for example, Crowded and Hot in Cleveland, we did it a little differently
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where we broke the story together and then we each took scenes. So all
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the writers would go home and they would write a scene and then send it
21:57
to the script coordinator, which was me, and I would put all the
22:02
scenes together in a script, send it back out to everybody. Everybody would
22:04
read it, and then we'd discuss in the room. So that's how it's
22:10
done sometimes too, And on Hannah Montana, stop me if I'm being boring.
22:17
I think everyone listening, everybody else. Everybody listening wants to hear this
22:19
stuff, so please continue. And on Hannah Montana it was all room written,
22:26
so and I think that's the way it works on Chuck Lori's shows.
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I've never been on one, but where everybody writes in the room and then
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it's assigned to a writer afterwards. Okay, so everyone beats up, beats
22:40
the story down, or breaks the story outlines it, and then they give
22:42
it to one writer to like go write the script. No, not for
22:45
that one. For Hannah Montana and the Chuck Lrii shows. Once you break
22:51
the story, then the writer's assistant opens up a blank document in the room
22:56
and people are literally dictating the script. So all gets written to get with
23:00
everyone together in the writer's room. That insane, though kind of. I
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mean, it works. I've seen it work on certain shows. It doesn't
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work on other shows, Like I don't think that would work on Blackish because
23:17
it really like that show needs a point of view and that and it needs
23:22
a writer to sit with the material and really think through the story and the
23:26
scenes. But on a multi camera show, for example, when you're going
23:30
beat by beat by beat, that's something that maybe isn't necessary. So it
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works a much better at least than a multi camera to have to be room
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written. Got it. Now, you mentioned to you were a script coordinator.
23:45
Can you tell the audience what a script coordinator on a television network show
23:49
does. Yes, And I'm so glad you said script coordinator and not script
23:53
supervisor because completely different things used nine out of ten times. Tell the difference
24:00
in the script supervisors script coordinator. Sure. So a script supervisor and script
24:03
supervisors forgive me if I'm messing this up, but they are. They're on
24:08
set. They they deal with continuity, they work with the director, they
24:15
deal with timing, and they get they make notes and give it to the
24:18
editor. So they're on set. They're really important. They're with the director
24:22
and the writer and making sure all they get all the shots and things like
24:26
that. So that's what a script supervisor does. A script coordinator is not
24:32
on the set. A script coordinator is, and it's it's kind of different
24:37
comedy and drama. But the main job of the script coordinator is to be
24:41
the liaison between the writer's office and the production. So your job is to
24:48
get the script in production shape. So scene numbers, scene headings. You
24:55
deal with legal and clearance issues. So once a script gets gets distributed,
25:02
it goes to the clearness department and legal and they'll say what you can and
25:06
what you can't say. And also you're so also when I say the liaison,
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you are also dealing with the department and helping them with clearances as well.
25:15
So art departments they'll say, hey, we need a sign for this
25:18
thing, can you clear these five names? So that's a job. As
25:22
a script coordinator on a drama, that's mostly what they do. Their script
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coordinators are in an office. They get so many revisions on a drama that
25:33
that's kind of their whole job is to is to work you know, in
25:37
the script in that way on a comedy a lot of times and has been
25:41
my experience always. Uh. Script coordinators also act as a writer's assistant.
25:47
So there they are in the room working in the script or taking notes when
25:55
people are outlining or things like that. So what is it a writer?
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What does the writers say didn't do? Then writer's assistant is responsible for taking
26:06
notes, doing some research, maybe working in the script for rewrites. So
26:12
once a writer brings in a script and we all talk about it, the
26:17
writer's assistant will take the notes that we've just talked about, and then once
26:22
we go back into the script and room write it together to do the to
26:26
do a pass, the writer's distant will work in the script changing the text.
26:33
So you need you need typing skills for that, and you need knowledge
26:37
of script writing software to be able to hop around in the script. And
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yeah, I mean it's it's not so easy. It's it's something that you
26:45
definitely get the hang of. And it's a skill knowing who to listen to
26:51
because you get a lot of voices coming at you, So being able to
26:56
get all the pitches down and know which ones the show or wants and kind
27:00
of who to listen to in the writer's room and who to definitely get that's
27:04
a writer's assistant skill. Now you've you've been going through all of this,
27:08
you've been a script coordinator, you're writer's assistant and done all this kind of
27:14
really heavy lifting throughout your career and then all of a sudden they point to
27:18
you and say you're going to get to write an episode. What was that?
27:23
Like? Amazing? And that's the end of the show. Thank you.
27:29
Yeah, no, it's worked out different on different shows. That happened.
27:32
On Blackish, where I was there for like a year and a half,
27:37
I didn't expect to get a script my first season, but the second
27:41
season I knew. You know, it was one of those shows where you
27:44
don't have to ask for it, because that's been the culture of the show
27:48
where they'll give scripts to the writer's assistance if they think the writer's assistant or
27:52
script coordinator is good. And yeah, on Blackish, I had heard rumors
27:57
around it, and then they made an announcement in the room, And when
28:03
you're an assistant, the writer's applaud for you, So that happened. That
28:10
also happened on Hot in Cleveland, where they made an announcement in the room,
28:15
which was super great. Uh, And then on Crowded I had worked
28:21
with Suzanne Martin on Hut in Cleveland, so when I was hired as a
28:25
script coordinator on the new show, she was kind enough to let me write
28:29
a script for the show as part of being a script coordinator. But yeah,
28:33
it's it's a it's a great feeling. And the great thing about Blackish,
28:40
and sort of the humbling thing is that I was writing it with the
28:44
other writer's resistant on the show and it was the finale of the season and
28:48
it was remembered and it was a tough one. It was the last episode
28:55
of a four episode arc where the characters were getting separated and we're coming back
29:00
together. Yes, it was a brutal, brutal arc. It was brutal.
29:03
Was watchful is the perfect word. It was brutal, and it was
29:11
necessary. And people didn't really like it. Nope, nope, did not
29:15
like it. I'm gonna be honest with you. My wife and I are
29:18
going they're going too far. They need to stop this. I have enough
29:22
troubles in my world. I don't need this. I know. That's what
29:27
that was a lot of the feedback on the Twitter sphere. Yeah, people,
29:33
so it was bold. It was bold, and Kenya really wanted to
29:38
show that because they never showed that thing, you know, that that kind
29:41
of thing on The Cosby Show. And he felt it was kind of you
29:45
know that that's life, you know, you kind of go through these ups
29:48
and downs. Yep. And but yeah, we were we were tasked and
29:52
me and the writers assistant task were with writing the finale. Will be right
30:00
back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show, and
30:08
it was one of those things too where it was obviously an important episode they're
30:12
getting back together, which is great, but also it was at the end
30:15
of the season, so like we've done twenty four episodes and like everyone's burnt
30:19
out. So when we got the outline it, you know, we had
30:27
you know, I mean the writer's system. We had some room to play
30:30
with because we knew, like we knew the story we wanted to tell,
30:33
and we had the outline and then like we noticed, like okay, like
30:36
Act three isn't as broken and there's no tag. It's kind of up to
30:40
us, so we can play a little bit and look, a lot of
30:45
times when you get outlines in writer's rooms, it's like paint by numbers,
30:51
and this we actually had some room to do some things, and luckily we
30:57
succeeded on most of them and it wasn't a major rewrite coming in and our
31:03
tag, I'm happy to say, went all the way through. Shockingly,
31:07
it was I don't know if you remember the tag, but it was Pops
31:11
and Ruby in the shared home that Trey was no longer there anymore, and
31:18
they thought they should get it on. Yes I do remember that, Yes,
31:22
yeah, so that was We were so happy that that sailed through because
31:26
a lot of times when you bring a script in, it looks stuff gets
31:30
changed. That's the nature of the beast, and it's it's ninety nine percent
31:33
going to get changed for the better. It's better when you have you know,
31:37
ten fifteen writers that are smarter than you saying here's how we can improve.
31:41
So yeah, when something when something steaks past the goalie and they're like,
31:45
okay, we'll go with this. That was pretty cool. Now does
31:48
it? What does it do for your career working on a show like Blackish
31:51
and such a pivotal episode as well? I mean, has it opened doors
31:55
that weren't open before? Not? Really? Fair enough? Fair enough?
32:02
Yeah, I mean, you know maybe in the future. I mean it's
32:07
a good credit for sure. Sure. And as far as you know,
32:10
Writers Guild Residual goes, it's going to be fantastic because it's a syndicated show
32:15
and it reruns and so but yeah, as far as like agents managers knocking
32:22
on my door, not so much. Doesn't really happen. I would think
32:25
you would think you would think, well that I wanted to kind of bring
32:30
that up because I want to make sure everyone listening knows the truth what happens.
32:35
They know the truth like all of a sudden, like most people are
32:37
like, oh, you just wrote the season finale for Black is a huge
32:40
show on ABC. You know they must be just rolling up to your door
32:45
with cash waiting for you for your like what show would you like to run?
32:50
Sir? Yeah, exactly. No, it doesn't really work like that,
32:53
unfortunately, And I was. I was the most naive person coming out
32:58
to Los Angeles, so I would have totally like, like I my idea
33:04
was, Hey, I'm going to write a script for two and a half
33:06
men and show it to the showrunner and he's going to hire me, which
33:08
is the exact wrong. Anyone listening out there, don't do that. Don't
33:14
ever do that. Don't ever do that. What you want to do just
33:17
for aspiring writers, write a pilot of something else. Well, it's okay
33:25
to write a spec for a show that everybody knows and that that was kind
33:29
of okay to do back then when I was writing specs and there were only
33:34
twenty shows, like I mean, look, I wasn't you know, I
33:37
didn't start in the fifties, ten ten years ago. There weren't that many
33:42
shows it was like and people would watch it, so, you know,
33:45
so writers would write a spec for like So I wrote a spect for Two
33:49
and a half Men, and anyone who read it had seen Two and a
33:52
half Men and understood the characters and understood like the voice of the show.
33:58
But now like, you'll write for a show no one's ever heard of,
34:02
no one's ever seen. So that's probably not the best idea to write us
34:06
back for a show, unless maybe you're doing Modern Family, because what everybody's
34:08
seeing that show. But nowadays, write a pilot and make it good and
34:16
get some good feedback, and rewrite it, and rewrite and rewrite it and
34:20
try and do something with it. I mean, my experience in television from
34:23
the directing standpoint is that it is a very much of a club because it
34:30
is a good job if you get on a show, and if you get
34:32
on a good show, even if you do you know, as a director,
34:36
at least even if you do five six episodes a year, you're good,
34:40
Like financially you're doing very well, and yeah, you're doing good.
34:47
You're doing good, right, So it's so difficult to break in. I'm
34:52
assuming that's similar to the writers because do all the writers get residuals off everything
34:57
or how does that work? Writers rules on the on the shows that they
35:04
write, and I don't know. I know the creator gets residuals on everything,
35:12
but I don't know what other levels or how that works. I think
35:14
only if you have points in the show, sure that you get that,
35:16
you get that. But yeah, for writers, it's it's the episode you
35:20
write, and if it airs again in primetime, you get half your script
35:25
fee, which is fantastic, which is fantastic, and then you could get
35:30
I mean, if you're a syndicated show, you could get a big check
35:32
just because they made a big syndication deal. So so like the guys from
35:37
Friends and Seinfelder says, Friends and seinfelder're doing okay, uh yeah, all
35:42
those writers in that writer's room they did all right. Yeah. I mean
35:45
even like I knew a writer that worked on the Cleveland Show and he was
35:50
like, he said to me, here, I want to show you something.
35:52
This was He's like, I know, you guys, are you know
35:54
this? He's like, I know you're you know, getting your first scripts,
35:58
and but I want to show you what it could would be. And
36:00
he kind of showed his Writers Guild residuals and they were fantastic from from the
36:05
Cleveland Show, the canceled clear from the Cleveland Show, and like some other
36:08
shows. But yeah, I mean like if a show goes into syndication,
36:13
not even like a super successful show, Yeah, it could be pretty good.
36:17
It's a nice career, and the Writer's Guild benefits when you retire great
36:22
too. So so can I ask you a question? And I'm going to
36:25
be that guy, what is the range of like money that you get off
36:30
of residuals so people have an understanding. I'm not the right person to ask.
36:35
Okay, just because I've you know, I've written three yet yeah,
36:40
it's hard to time. I mean one was one was a syndicated show.
36:44
Hot in Cleveland was a syndicated show, and that has not been as good
36:46
as you want it to be, right, but figure, you know,
36:51
I'll just throw out numbers and these are these could be total. So let's
36:57
say on a half hour networks, you get paid if you write it.
37:02
If it's you know, a story by written by you, You've written the
37:07
script, it's your name only that for a half hour network, that's twenty
37:12
six thousand dollars bad. If it gets rerun in primetime, you get half
37:19
that fee, so you get thirteen thousand dollars. Okay, okay, so
37:22
there that's good. Right there, that's good. Right there, you're doing
37:25
really good. Yeah, you're doing good. If it airs again in primetime,
37:30
it's probably half that. So maybe it's like sixty five hundred or something,
37:36
and then your guess is as good as mine. On syndication. On
37:39
syndication, yeah, I mean you could get I mean, no one like
37:45
I've gotten a syndication check for Hut in Cleveland and I wrote it was a
37:51
cable show and I wrote half the episode and the syndication check was like not
38:00
not even half of what the original fee was. So it wasn't it.
38:04
I felt like that check should have been more, right, I mean,
38:07
I always feel check should be more, but that's just me. Anytime I
38:10
get a check on like this check should be for more. I mean,
38:15
well, I don't want to be the crass guy asking about money, but
38:16
it was just there's a lot of people out there who just don't even understand
38:21
what people make, and it's all this information, a lot of this information.
38:24
You could just find them through writers skilled writer skills. Has all that
38:27
stuff. Yeah, if you if you go online and do WGA schedule of
38:31
minimums, it's right there. You can find out everything that you'll make for
38:37
TV and for features too. But I don't even think the real I mean,
38:42
that's not even the real money is in the script. I mean it's
38:45
great money. It's like bonus money if you're if your producer level or COEP
38:50
for if you then forget. But even if you're a story editor. So
38:54
again you can look at this schedule of minimums, but if you're a TV
38:58
writer or network show, if you're a staff writer, it's something like three
39:02
plus thousand a week. If you're a story editor, it could be five
39:07
six thousand. So it's that's the real money. If you can get on
39:13
some of these shows, writers make a good living. I have not been
39:16
a staff writer or a story editor or anything on a show, so I
39:20
don't have that experience. Sure, but it's that's the money, that's that's
39:24
where that's wait. So you get paid to be there, and then you
39:28
also get paid per episode that you write. Yes, that's just However,
39:31
if you're a staff writer and they're just never going to change this, you
39:36
don't get a script fee, which is insane. I think just nobody.
39:42
The people that are fighting just don't seem to care because they're so upper level.
39:45
But yeah, So, for example, if as a script coordinator,
39:50
let's say you write a you got a freelance episode, you get paid twenty
39:52
six thousand dollars for the script. If you're a staff writer on the show,
39:59
will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back
40:06
to the show that's making three thousand plus a week, and you get a
40:09
script, you don't get that script fee. You get residuals but not script
40:15
fee, and it's for I don't know why, but it's still around and
40:19
no one seems to ever want to pay for that. It's crazy. That's
40:22
insane. Yeah, that's insane. Yep. So with all of this,
40:28
now you've told us all this kind of work that you've done over the last
40:31
over the course of your career, you've then decided to jump into the technology
40:36
game and invented an app called scriptation to fulfill a need that is desperately needed
40:45
in the world of film and television. Can you talk a little bit about
40:49
scriptation? Yeah, So, being a script coordinator, I was the one
40:53
responsible for sending out scripts and script revisions. And I come from the TV
40:59
world, so I was working on this. It was a pilot. It
41:05
was a weird production schedule. We had ten days from the table read to
41:08
when we started shooting, and every single night we were putting at a full
41:14
fifty page script to one hundred plus people. So I get the script together,
41:20
give it to the PA, they make copies, hand it out to
41:23
people, people make notes on them. The next day, same process all
41:28
over again. People are rewriting their notes on the new drafts, and they're
41:32
dumping the old draft in the trash or hopefully the recycle band. And that's
41:37
a crazy process that we've been doing for years. And at that time everyone
41:43
on this show, at least in the writer's office, was feeling this is
41:45
an incredible waste of paper. And I was thinking that too. And not
41:50
only is it a waste of paper, but productivity where you get one draft,
41:54
you make all your notes, whether whatever department you're in, if you're
41:58
a writer, if you're a set decorator, if you're in sound, if
42:02
you're a director, you make a lot of notes. If you're a director,
42:05
same thing with a DP, and you're making all of these notes on
42:09
a script that is going to be obsolete in twenty four hours. So I
42:15
knew that we could annotate and on a tablet. So people had iPads at
42:22
the time and iPhones and you could you could use Adobe right to you annotate
42:28
a PDF document. But the real problem was once you annotate the draft.
42:34
So let's say you have a table draft of a script and then you get
42:37
your production draft. How can you move all of your notes and annotations from
42:43
the table draft into the production draft. And that was the problem that we're
42:46
trying to solve. And I hired a developer. I said, can you
42:51
do this? And he said, I think so, And that's what kind
42:55
of launched scriptation. We we figured out this problem them. You know,
43:00
after two or three years. It took us a while to figure out how
43:04
to transfer notes from a draft to a new draft and do so intelligently where
43:08
we could tell you what change and if you handwrite a note that's on the
43:13
top of page three and now is on the bottom of page two, we
43:17
can move that handwritten note in that same spot. So yeah, that's that's
43:23
how we kind of came up with it, and you know, we put
43:27
it in the app store, and it's been pretty successful, and we've had
43:31
directors that tell us it saves them four to five hours a week. That's
43:37
a lot, and that's four to five hours in BS work that they don't
43:43
because when when you're directing what you want to spend your time recopying notes and
43:45
figuring out what changed, or you want to see how it's going to look
43:49
and get the right performances and set up for the shot. Right, So
43:52
that's the time that that we're saving. And it's it's been really great that
43:58
not only have people in the we've been able to use it, but also
44:02
agents and managers and studio executives are using it too because they've got a ton
44:07
of scripts and instead of carrying around a giant binder, they've got a tablet.
44:12
Right of course, it's it's insane when I'm directing myself, I have
44:16
to carry around this huge binder full of you know, and I try to
44:20
put my notes in and it's it's such a pain in the butt. And
44:22
I was like, this is such an old fashioned way of doing things in
44:27
today's world. But now your script scriptation has alleviated that pain. Well,
44:32
on your next production, you're going to need to use it, obviously,
44:36
I know somebody in the company, so hopefully they'll be able to get that
44:40
now. No, so how much does it cost? Where can people get
44:44
it? Well, I kind of have an announcement to share about that.
44:50
So we Scriptation for the past almost two years has been in the iOS app
44:57
store. They can get an iPad and iPhone for nine and what you get
45:01
with that is you get annotation. You also get note transferring. You get
45:06
another feature called actor highlighting, which is useful for actors at table reads because
45:13
instead of manually highlighting all their lines, they tap a button and boom,
45:15
all their lines are highlighted. Also useful for sound mixers, which we found
45:21
out. I didn't know I built it for actors, and then sound mixers
45:23
say, hey we highlight lines, doo can you do X, Y and
45:27
z. So yeah, So Scriptation has been in the store for nine ninety
45:30
nine and you get all those features and a couple other things. We're going
45:35
to make that free. What Yeah, So the core scriptation core of scriptation
45:45
you're actually going to be able to get for free and use as much as
45:49
you want, with as many scripts as you want, and transfer notes as
45:52
many times as you like, no limit on it. Okay, and then
45:54
what's the ruby? You have to be a business, so what too good
46:04
to be free? It sounds too good to be true? Should I just
46:08
buy real estate with no money down? So what we will be offering is
46:16
we're going to be offering Scriptation Pro which is going to include cloud storage,
46:22
and we'll be able to actually sync all of your scriptation metadata, actor highlights,
46:29
no transferring, deletions, et cetera in the cloud. You can access
46:31
it divides a device. We also have our document editor, which lets you
46:36
add facing pages to write notes and actually in the note transfer. This is
46:40
really cool. So if you're a director and you're at a table read and
46:45
you make all of your notes and you insert shots and diagrams, and then
46:51
you get a shooting draft, you can actually transfer all of those inserted pages
46:54
into the new draft as well. The way the algorithm works is actually find
47:00
the like page and then moves that page there, so you really don't have
47:02
to do any work when transferring notes. And we're also offering a reader mode
47:08
for the iPhone where sometimes it's hard to read scripts on your iPhone as a
47:13
PDF, and we're going to make that easier for you. That's actually being
47:16
included in the free version. But that's that's going to be launched with Scriptation
47:22
Pro. And then we've got a couple of other features that were launching with
47:25
pro there and yeah, that's the rub is That is the rub in a
47:34
good rub it is, sir. And then wh where can people find the
47:37
app on? Just on the App Store? Sure? Yeah, you can
47:39
search, go the App Store, search for Scriptation it'll be there. You
47:44
can also go to the Windows Store and get Scriptation. It's available on any
47:47
sort of Windows device that you have. Fantastic man. And now I'm going
47:52
to ask you a few questions that I ask all of my guests. What
47:55
advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today? Right,
48:01
fair enough, you're next, I'm checking. Uh yeah, I'll elaborate
48:06
a little, but it's really simple. If if you want to be a
48:07
writer, write, and if you have no outside responsibilities, like you're a
48:14
single guy living in a city, right, because maybe you'll get a girlfriend,
48:21
maybe you'll get married, maybe we'll start a family, Maybe you'll have
48:22
bills you'll have to pay, and then you won't be able to do that
48:25
anymore. Do you So, if you can do it, write, write
48:29
as much as you can write, rewrite, find a group of friends who
48:34
don't send your script to everyone to get notes, and then trying to pease
48:37
everybody. Find a group of people that you trust. You you know,
48:40
you trust their opinion, you trust their taste. Three people, four max.
48:46
Send that to them, get their thoughts. Become a better writer with
48:50
that. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on
48:53
your life or career? You asked that to everybody? Everybody? Oh my
48:59
god, Let's see the New York Times Crossword. I think it. Doing
49:07
crosswords makes you a smarter person. Fair and yeah, I'd recommend everybody to
49:14
you can You don't have to get the New York Times to do it.
49:15
You can. Actually, they have a crossword app in the app store,
49:20
So get New York Times Crossword. Start with Monday. Be really upset that
49:24
you can't get the easy ones, but eventually you will fantastic. All right,
49:29
Now, what lesson took you the longest to learn, whether in the
49:31
film business or in life. Oh man, there are so many things I
49:40
have learned. I've been so naive in this industry. What took you the
49:45
longest to learn patience. Probably that's a very popular answer. That's my answer
49:52
to No, it's it's true, though, you know, you can't do
49:55
everything at once. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
50:05
and now back to the show. Plans are gonna I mean, you know,
50:10
I've learned this a lot with scriptation too. But you've got to be
50:15
able to pivot, whether in a company or in life. If things like
50:22
patients would at the same time, be willing to change what you're doing,
50:25
and I don't know all about you know, be mindful of things and have
50:30
a good attitude. These are like what am I saying right now, But
50:35
all of these things are yeah. I mean I'll go to yoga, meditate,
50:43
do all of those things. You can't do everything for everybody. You
50:45
can't do everything at once. Do what you want to do, do what
50:49
you know is right, and hope that you succeed and have faith that you
50:53
will. And what are three of your favorite films of all time? Uh,
51:00
this is going to sound so cliche, Go for it. It's okay
51:04
because it's so of my time. I know I was in college. That
51:08
that's why it's gonna sound cliche. Office space. Now, I'd love that
51:14
movie. I really really, it's a it's it's a brilliant piece of cinema.
51:17
It really is, it really is. It is so perfect in almost
51:23
every way. It's so ahead of its time, it's so ahead of its
51:27
time. It's just so Mike Judge, it's just so brilliant. That movie.
51:31
I could watch over and over again and hit that other one he did
51:35
idio crassity or oh idiocracy, idiocracy? Oh my god, Oh you mean
51:38
what's happening right now? Exactly like where we are in the world right now.
51:43
It was the writer. I saw the writer or I read the writer
51:45
like he goes. When I wrote this, I never thought that this would
51:49
actually happen. Yep, it is scary. Scary. That's a that's a
51:52
frightening movie to watch. Now. Well, we're watching it right now,
51:57
we're all watching it. Watches this movie another movie, just because I can't
52:01
think of my favorite that I can just put on and watch. His Midnight
52:05
in Paris. I love I love wish fulfillment movies. I wish more movies
52:10
were like that because that's what I want to go to the cinema for.
52:15
And so I there's just something you know, it's just comfort food for me
52:20
to watch that movie. And when I was a kid growing up. Superman,
52:25
the original Superman is so good. It's good he created, Donner created.
52:31
Without Donner, there is no Avengers agreed, there is no Batman,
52:37
There's no Batman. There's nothing without Donners setting up the entire genre. He's
52:43
the first one to do the genre in the theatrical environment. Oh, and
52:46
making it feel real everything I mean, I mean that's sort of what Chris
52:51
Nolan did with the Batman movies, is make it feel like this could happen
52:57
and make it feel grounded, you know, because no one took it to
53:00
the next level. Batman begins, that's up there. One of my favorite
53:02
movies. But yeah, Superman Man that as a kid, and and today
53:07
Superman one and two. I should say, yeah, those two together are
53:10
I look at about three? Are holy god? Four? I mean not
53:14
talking, let's let's not go there. Though. I actually was a kid
53:15
when three came out. I love three when I was like, you know,
53:19
ten, Yeah, like Richard Pryor when I was when I loved four,
53:22
Well, maybe I didn't even love four when I was ten. I
53:25
was like then I was already a teenager by that time, and I said,
53:29
and I even I could go, this is not right. There's there's
53:34
something, there's some weird, there's some don't like that guy's fingernails. Why
53:37
is why? Why can you cut Superman's hair? This makes no sense,
53:42
This makes no sense. I don't understand what you're doing. Did you ever
53:47
see the Donner cut of Superman two? I did. Yeah, it's the
53:51
best thing. It's the best thing I have that DVD or uh, maybe
53:55
illegally downloaded what it's amazing. No, but it's a This was like it
54:00
came out like ten years ago something like that, right, not that old,
54:04
probably within the last ten years it came out. But the Donner was
54:07
so much better. They got rid of all that funky throwing the Superman signal
54:12
that turned into some saran wrap. Oh that was that was crazy, Like
54:16
where did that come from from? Like Superman can't do that? Yeah,
54:22
how did you even think of that? That is that? That's when they
54:25
lost They ran off the rails with that one. But when you go back
54:30
to the Donner cut, you're like, oh, this is what it was
54:31
supposed to be. We could have had more of this, right, it
54:36
wasn't for those damn producers, which should be a t shirt in Hollywood.
54:39
But anyway, now, Steve, where can people find you? Man?
54:45
Well, I'm on I mean, I'm not really on the social networks.
54:50
I'm only on it through my scriptation handle, so but you can contact me
54:55
through there so at scriptation app on all the on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter,
55:04
and yeah, if you want to contact me, then send a message
55:07
through any of those social media services. Steve, Man, it's been an
55:09
absolute pleasure talking to you. Man. Thank you so much for dropping some
55:13
knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. Man, I appreciate it. Yeah,
55:15
Man, this was fine. I hope it's useful. I want to thanks
55:17
Steve again for coming by the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the Tribe
55:22
today. If you want to get links to anything we talked about in the
55:25
show, please head over to the show notes at indiefilmhuscle dot com forward slash
55:30
seven forty one, and if you have it already, please head over to
55:32
Filmmaking podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review for the show.
55:38
It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much
55:40
for listening. Guys. As always, keep that Hustle going, keep that
55:44
dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
55:46
Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at indiefilm hustle dot com.
55:52
That's I N D I E F I L M h U S t l
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E dot com.