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Is Twiggy Forrest secretly negotiating world peace? · The Front

0:03
Speaker 1: From The Australian, here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
0:06
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, April 8, 2026. The arrest of Ben Robert
0:13
Speaker 1: Smith on war crimes, murder charges is reverberating through politics,
0:18
Speaker 1: with Tony Abbott and Pauline Hanson saying they stand by.
0:21
Speaker 1: The Victoria Cross recipient and other politicians declining to comment.
0:26
Speaker 1: On the case that's now before the courts, Robert Smith
0:29
Speaker 1: is likely to strongly defend himself. You can read all
0:33
Speaker 1: the fallout, plus the inside story of BRS's path to
0:37
Speaker 1: this moment, right now at theaustralian.com.au. Australians know him as
0:45
Speaker 1: the affable mining billionaire Twiggy. But is Andrew Forrest living
0:50
Speaker 1: a double life as a top-level diplomatic power broker? Our
0:54
Speaker 1: North Asia correspondent Yoni Bashan spent a while at the
0:58
Speaker 1: court of King Twiggy and joins us to discuss this charming,
1:02
Speaker 1: confounding character. Yoni's here in just a moment. Yoni Bashan
1:15
Speaker 1: is the Australian's North Asia correspondent and he's been spending
1:18
Speaker 1: time in the court of King Twiggy, Andrew Forrest, the
1:21
Speaker 1: founder of the Fortescue Metals Group, one of Australia's richest
1:25
Speaker 1: people and apparently the kind.
1:27
Speaker 2: Of creator of world peace.
1:29
Speaker 1: Yoni, what did you make of Andrew Forrest when you
1:32
Speaker 1: hung out with him in China?
1:34
Speaker 2: I mean, he's a very, very nice man. He exudes
1:39
Speaker 2: warmth and welcome and he's accommodating. He's... He wants you
1:44
Speaker 2: to have a glass of wine in your hand if
1:46
Speaker 2: he's got one in his hand. He was kind of
1:49
Speaker 2: foisting this glass of Grange onto me while I was
1:51
Speaker 2: trying to work, which is fine. We'd all love a
1:53
Speaker 2: glass of Grange while we work. But, you know, he'd
1:55
Speaker 2: say things like, this is our first drink together, isn't it? And,
1:58
Speaker 2: you know, he notices those sort of things. He calls
2:00
Speaker 2: you mate. He calls you digger.
2:02
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:02
Speaker 2: He wants to kind of emphasize that, yeah, he's a
2:06
Speaker 2: billionaire with nearly $ 17 billion in the bank, according to
2:09
Speaker 2: our colleague, John Stensholt. But he's also just twiggy. he's
2:13
Speaker 2: the mining guy and yes, he's made a lot of
2:16
Speaker 2: money and yes, he's gallivanting around the world and shuttling
2:19
Speaker 2: between the capitals and engaging in all this kind of
2:22
Speaker 2: track 1.5 diplomacy. But He's just a normal guy. But
2:27
Speaker 2: that's the question. Is he actually a normal guy though?
2:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. I spent some time with him recently and I
2:32
Speaker 1: noticed how he calls everybody Digger. He didn't call me
2:34
Speaker 1: Digger because I think he's from that kind of old,
2:36
Speaker 1: slightly old fashioned school where you don't call ladies mate
2:39
Speaker 1: or Digger or Cobber or whatever. But he's good company,
2:44
Speaker 1: isn't he? Very entertaining.
2:46
Speaker 2: He's wonderful company. And it's because he does exude a
2:48
Speaker 2: kind of warmth. I mean, in my memory of our
2:51
Speaker 2: interaction together, he's kind of red-faced and smiling. He's having
2:55
Speaker 2: a good time. And I think he wants the people
2:58
Speaker 2: around him to have a good time. And you notice
3:00
Speaker 2: that as well with his staff. They're tired. They're exhausted.
3:02
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the most striking things about Twiggy
3:06
Speaker 2: is that he's been doing this since five in the morning.
3:09
Speaker 2: And when I spoke to him, it was after 10
3:11
Speaker 2: o'clock at night, but he was still going. he was great.
3:13
Speaker 2: His staff were pale of face and tired and they
3:17
Speaker 2: hadn't eaten in many hours. And he'd been moving between
3:21
Speaker 2: half a dozen to a dozen different meetings and then
3:23
Speaker 2: hosting a party in his hotel suite. And he looked great.
3:26
Speaker 2: And it's incredible. It's actually quite inspiring, really.
3:29
Speaker 1: Now, we know he spends a lot of time in China,
3:30
Speaker 1: but what was he doing on this particular occasion when
3:33
Speaker 1: you went to talk to him?
3:34
Speaker 2: So he comes to China numerous times a year, but
3:39
Speaker 2: For this particular occasion, he was in China for two
3:43
Speaker 2: major annual events. One of them is the Boao Forum,
3:46
Speaker 2: which is where I spoke to him. And that's a
3:48
Speaker 2: meeting of, you might liken it to a meeting of
3:51
Speaker 2: government officials and leaders from all over the Asia Pacific.
3:56
Speaker 3: China is going green because it understands what is happening
4:02
Speaker 3: with climate change, but also because economically it makes huge
4:07
Speaker 3: sense for China.
4:09
Speaker 2: The other meeting that he had attended was called the
4:12
Speaker 2: China Development Forum, and that had happened a couple of
4:14
Speaker 2: days earlier. And that happens in Beijing. It's a very
4:16
Speaker 2: big deal. It's attended by Apple's CEO, Tim Cook, and
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Speaker 2: the CEOs and chairman of Fortune 500 companies. And Twiggy
4:24
Speaker 2: attends that event, and he really delineates between the two
4:26
Speaker 2: events by saying that the China Development Forum, or what
4:29
Speaker 2: we call CDF, that's a business forum. That's for business,
4:32
Speaker 2: that's for corporate, what he called the corporate world of
4:35
Speaker 2: the world. And the Boao Forum is really about government,
4:39
Speaker 2: it's about dialogue, it's about the region, it's about the
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Speaker 2: Asia-Pacific voice, and it's regarded as a kind of counterweight
4:45
Speaker 2: to what Davos is to the Western world. So these
4:49
Speaker 2: are two very important occasions that he sees fit to
4:52
Speaker 2: fly into on his private jet with a very large
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Speaker 2: retinue of staff who are trailing him at all times.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a massive expense to doing something like that, though.
5:01
Speaker 1: He's running a very big and successful business. He's got
5:04
Speaker 1: a lot of iron ore to dig out of the ground.
5:06
Speaker 1: He's still trying to make green hydrogen work. Why would
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Speaker 1: he spend what must be millions of dollars a year
5:12
Speaker 1: going to these sort of annual talk fests, which you
5:15
Speaker 1: and I have been to them, Yoni, that absolutely, that
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Speaker 1: can be absolutely deadly boring?
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Speaker 2: Oh, they'll put me into a deep REM within a
5:22
Speaker 2: couple of minutes of being there. But they are important.
5:25
Speaker 2: And particularly for someone like Andrew Forrest, these conferences in
5:29
Speaker 2: China are of pivotal importance because you have to remember
5:32
Speaker 2: almost his entire commercial interest lies in China. He borrows
5:36
Speaker 2: money from Chinese banks. His supply network is integrated in China.
5:39
Speaker 2: His customers are in China. The decarbonization of his empire
5:44
Speaker 2: is rooted in Chinese technology. So he relies on these
5:48
Speaker 2: events to inform what he does at Fortescue commercially. I
5:52
Speaker 2: also think he likes being in China and he likes
5:54
Speaker 2: Chinese people and he just enjoys being there. But this
5:56
Speaker 2: is a very important opportunity for him to meet with
5:58
Speaker 2: his clients, meet with his suppliers, meet with executives and
6:01
Speaker 2: meet with people in government, which by the way, not
6:03
Speaker 2: all mining officials were able to do. I will note,
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Speaker 2: for example, that this year BHP was not in attendance
6:08
Speaker 2: at the Chinese Development Forum. They weren't at Boao. You
6:12
Speaker 2: have to wonder why.
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Speaker 1: He seems to also want to kind of step into
6:16
Speaker 1: a world where people like him don't normally go, the
6:19
Speaker 1: kind of quiet world of diplomacy. He wants to be
6:23
Speaker 1: making speeches at these kinds of events where normally you
6:26
Speaker 1: might hear from the head of a think tank or
6:29
Speaker 1: some sort of UN official. And at the China Development Forum,
6:32
Speaker 1: he made some comments about the Iran war that ruffled.
6:36
Speaker 2: Feathers, it's fair to say.
6:38
Speaker 1: What did he say and why?
6:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this was just absolutely fascinating. And one
6:43
Speaker 2: of the great things about writing about Andrew Forrest is
6:46
Speaker 2: that he's unpredictable and you don't know what he's going
6:50
Speaker 2: to say. So Two Sundays ago, he's an attendee at
6:53
Speaker 2: the China Development Forum, this exclusive prestigious event, and he's
6:57
Speaker 2: a speaker on a green energy panel with other CEOs
7:01
Speaker 2: and leaders. And each of them get about seven minutes
7:03
Speaker 2: to get up and have their say in their allocated time.
7:07
Speaker 2: There's even a Chinese official who stands down the back
7:09
Speaker 2: with a big red sign, which she holds up when
7:11
Speaker 2: they're running out of time, a bit like at the Oscars.
7:13
Speaker 2: It's quite funny. So the panelists include people like Twiggy
7:18
Speaker 2: and the CEO of Anglo American. And typically, these CEOs
7:21
Speaker 2: get up and they talk about things of relevance to
7:24
Speaker 2: their business. They're talking about their business. They're not talking
7:26
Speaker 2: about geopolitics. But Twiggy... gets up, he has seven minutes,
7:29
Speaker 2: and the first five and a half minutes or so,
7:32
Speaker 2: all he does is talk about America, Iran, what's happening
7:36
Speaker 2: in Iran, fossil fuels, and what he calls the Holodomor. Now,
7:41
Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't know what the Holodomor is, I mean,
7:43
Speaker 2: that's the Ukrainian word for the man-made starvation campaign that
7:47
Speaker 2: Stalin embarked upon in the 1930s. So he's getting up
7:50
Speaker 2: there and he's saying these things about what's happening in Iran.
7:53
Speaker 2: And it's not that what he's saying is factually incorrect
7:57
Speaker 2: or logically incorrect. doesn't stack up. This is the thing
8:00
Speaker 2: about Andrew Forrest is that he doesn't necessarily say things
8:03
Speaker 2: that are wrong, but his timing and the optics of
8:05
Speaker 2: what he's saying are questionable. He's making these remarks in
8:09
Speaker 2: a room where it's full of Chinese officials. He's saying
8:13
Speaker 2: them in Beijing. And for all intents and purposes, one
8:17
Speaker 2: might ask, what is he trying to signal here? Did he,
8:20
Speaker 2: for example, tell the Chinese that he was going to
8:22
Speaker 2: make these remarks? Is he trying to signal to them
8:24
Speaker 2: that there's some kind of a geopolitical alignment? And as
8:27
Speaker 2: for the remarks themselves, if I can just actually answer
8:30
Speaker 2: the question you asked, what he was saying was, is
8:33
Speaker 2: that if America was intending to bomb Iranian power plants,
8:37
Speaker 2: as they were thinking about doing at the time, and
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Speaker 2: which they may still be thinking about doing, the consequence
8:42
Speaker 2: would be mass civilian death. And that was the point
8:46
Speaker 2: he was making. But in making that point, it also
8:49
Speaker 2: sounded at a pinch that he might be against the
8:53
Speaker 2: wall and potentially anti-American. And his stance on this seemed
8:57
Speaker 2: to mirror some of the Chinese foreign ministry comments about
9:00
Speaker 2: the war in Iran, which is that the Americans shouldn't
9:02
Speaker 2: be there. The Israelis shouldn't be there. This should not
9:04
Speaker 2: be happening. There should not be a war in Iran.
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Speaker 2: And that was something I really wanted to nail down
9:08
Speaker 2: with him.
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Speaker 1: And it's going even further than that and suggesting or
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Speaker 1: implying that there's a point at which this tips over
9:14
Speaker 1: into being a genocide, right? Because that's what the word
9:17
Speaker 1: Holomador conjures up.
9:20
Speaker 2: It does. I mean, what he was effectively accusing the
9:22
Speaker 2: Americans of contemplating was a genocide, was a war crime.
9:27
Speaker 2: And so when I put that to him, he was
9:29
Speaker 2: very much of the opinion that I shouldn't be politicising
9:32
Speaker 2: those comments. It was actually me who was misunderstanding him.
9:35
Speaker 2: What he was trying to do was make a point
9:37
Speaker 2: about fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are, as he says, a
9:40
Speaker 2: weapon of war. This was a war over fossil fuels.
9:42
Speaker 2: We've had other wars over fossil fuels. They don't end
9:44
Speaker 2: very well. That was the point he was making. And
9:46
Speaker 2: to be fair... I think I take those remarks in
9:49
Speaker 2: good faith. I think that's probably what he meant, genuinely.
9:53
Speaker 2: Are you opposed or are you in favor to military
9:55
Speaker 2: action against the Iranian regime as it stands? Because the
9:59
Speaker 2: comments that I heard from you you on Sunday sounded
10:02
Speaker 2: anti-American in their sentiment. They were historic.
10:06
Speaker 3: And I don't think you should politicise them. And I
10:09
Speaker 3: certainly don't think you should draw a bow that anyone
10:12
Speaker 3: from China had any influence on them because Well.
10:16
Speaker 1: Bombing the power plants in Iran would send Iran back
10:19
Speaker 1: to the pre-industrial era. Of course, suddenly people would be
10:22
Speaker 1: unable to light their homes, unable to heat themselves, you know,
10:25
Speaker 1: unable to wash their clothes, unable to get food. You know,
10:29
Speaker 1: you would very quickly see hunger problems and a retreat
10:32
Speaker 1: to social, massive social disorder. So that is true, right?
10:37
Speaker 2: Really?
10:38
Speaker 1: Of course it's true.
10:40
Speaker 2: What he's saying is not factually incorrect. And he's coming
10:42
Speaker 2: at this from a place where he's been observing very
10:45
Speaker 2: closely what's been going on in Ukraine. I noted in
10:48
Speaker 2: the piece that I wrote that he wears a Ukraine
10:50
Speaker 2: pin on his lapel. He wears it everywhere. I'm not
10:54
Speaker 2: aware of him ever taking it off. I know he's
10:55
Speaker 2: been asked at times to take it off in certain locations.
10:57
Speaker 2: He's refused to do so. I mean, this is a
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Speaker 2: man who cares very, very strongly about what is happening
11:02
Speaker 2: in Ukraine. Conversely, he also said throughout our interview at
11:06
Speaker 2: one point, you know, I have no particular allegiance to Ukraine.
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Speaker 2: which I thought was striking considering he was wearing the
11:12
Speaker 2: flag on his lapel. I didn't really understand the point
11:15
Speaker 2: he was making there.
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Speaker 3: And I've said, well, actually, I'm close to Ukraine. I've
11:20
Speaker 3: studied that history. I've seen what's happened. Yeah, I've worn
11:23
Speaker 3: this badge since the tanks rolled over the border. Not
11:25
Speaker 3: because I've got any great loyalty to Ukraine, but I
11:29
Speaker 3: just can't stand what happened.
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Speaker 2: This is the thing about Twiggy. It's that he's kind
11:34
Speaker 2: of this ball of contradictions. He has all this energy
11:36
Speaker 2: and it seems to be sprouting outwards in all these
11:38
Speaker 2: different locations. He says one thing and he speaks with
11:42
Speaker 2: such conviction, but then he'll say something else that seems
11:43
Speaker 2: to undermine or undercut that conviction. Although he still does
11:47
Speaker 2: sound believable at times. He's an enigmatic figure.
11:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so when you try to work out whose
11:53
Speaker 1: side is he on, okay, now he's saying that Iran,
11:56
Speaker 1: which is an ally or a partner of China, should
11:59
Speaker 1: not be bombed by the United States because that would
12:02
Speaker 1: be a war crime. And then when you ask him
12:04
Speaker 1: about it, he says he doesn't really have a view
12:07
Speaker 1: about the war itself in Iran. He said, no, I
12:11
Speaker 1: don't have to have a view on this.
12:13
Speaker 3: What Iran needs to do is recognise the state of Israel.
12:18
Speaker 3: It needs to stay peacefully within its borders. I don't
12:23
Speaker 3: agree with transgressing borders from Taiwan to Israel. Iran's crazy
12:29
Speaker 3: view against Israel, that's all going to stop.
12:33
Speaker 1: So then it's like, well, maybe he's not on China's
12:36
Speaker 1: side at all because invoking Taiwan in that way, which
12:39
Speaker 1: China considers to be a rogue province or a state
12:43
Speaker 1: just like Tasmania, they often make that comparison for Australia,
12:46
Speaker 1: you know, he's saying it would be wrong for China
12:48
Speaker 1: to take this province back. So whose side is he on?
12:52
Speaker 2: Well, and that's an interesting point. Is he actually saying...
12:56
Speaker 2: it would be wrong for China to do that. Or
12:57
Speaker 2: is what he's saying that he just doesn't agree with
13:00
Speaker 2: transgressing borders militarily? And this is the way that these
13:04
Speaker 2: remarks that he makes can be very finely passed. And
13:06
Speaker 2: it's either because he's an absolute genius or because he
13:10
Speaker 2: kind of misspeaks and then accuses you of getting it wrong.
13:13
Speaker 1: Well, China would say there is no border, that China
13:15
Speaker 1: and Taiwan are one country, just like Australia and Tasmania,
13:19
Speaker 1: and that China can do absolutely whatever it wants. And
13:21
Speaker 1: if it decides to send troops from the People's Liberation
13:24
Speaker 1: Army into Taiwan, then that's not an invasion.
13:28
Speaker 3: Correct.
13:28
Speaker 2: I mean, something I've been thinking about ever since I
13:31
Speaker 2: spoke to him was that he has this particular bugbear
13:34
Speaker 2: with transgressing borders. Okay, well, another recent instance of transgressed
13:38
Speaker 2: borders was when Hamas crossed the border into Israel on
13:40
Speaker 2: October 7. I don't recall seeing him wearing an Israeli
13:42
Speaker 2: flag on his lapel. It's not because I query his
13:46
Speaker 2: motives and intentions. It's not that I don't think he
13:48
Speaker 2: really cares about Ukraine. It's just that sometimes... these sentiments
13:52
Speaker 2: come off as selective or they could appear, I'm not
13:55
Speaker 2: accusing him of this, but it could appear self-serving. And again,
13:58
Speaker 2: I come back to this issue with China. It's like,
14:00
Speaker 2: why did you make those remarks in Beijing on this
14:03
Speaker 2: particular occasion when you haven't made these remarks in the
14:06
Speaker 2: weeks leading up to it? There's a timing factor that
14:09
Speaker 2: needs to be taken into account here. And the question
14:11
Speaker 2: I really wanted to know was, is this because you
14:14
Speaker 2: have such a deep commercial stake in China through Fortescue?
14:18
Speaker 2: This really, really matters. But when you put that to him,
14:21
Speaker 2: What he'll say is, no, no, no, you've got this
14:23
Speaker 2: all wrong. I just care about borders being transgressed. I
14:26
Speaker 2: just don't want to see a lot of people die
14:27
Speaker 2: in Iran. And then when I say back, okay, well,
14:29
Speaker 2: let's just nail this down. Is there any scenario in
14:33
Speaker 2: which you would support a military campaign in Iran? He'll say, well,
14:35
Speaker 2: I don't need to have a view on that. It's like, well, actually,
14:38
Speaker 2: I think you do need to have a view on
14:39
Speaker 2: that because your signaling is you don't support this war.
14:43
Speaker 1: And then he also raises with you an initiative that
14:46
Speaker 1: he says that he has created, which is a sort
14:49
Speaker 1: of behind-the-scenes dialogue between China and America about how to
14:53
Speaker 1: control the use of AI in military operations. Now, of course,
14:58
Speaker 1: this has blown up recently into a massive dispute involving
15:01
Speaker 1: the Pentagon, Anthropic and OpenAI. That's a whole other story.
15:06
Speaker 1: Andrew Forrest is saying he's been masterminding, I suppose, behind-the-scenes
15:11
Speaker 1: talks between China and America about having some sort of
15:15
Speaker 1: mutual support standards on this kind of thing. Now, if
15:18
Speaker 1: that is true, that is a remarkable diplomatic achievement, isn't it?
15:22
Speaker 1: It is.
15:23
Speaker 2: It is quite a remarkable diplomatic achievement. And he appears
15:26
Speaker 2: to want people to know about this. He will freely
15:29
Speaker 2: admit he has organised and funded this.
15:32
Speaker 3: So in 2019, I became incredibly worried about artificial intelligence
15:38
Speaker 3: in military applications. And I approached the Americans and the
15:43
Speaker 3: Chinese and said, you guys have got to get in
15:47
Speaker 3: a room. And it survived the Trump one presidency, it
15:51
Speaker 3: survived the Biden presidency, and it now rolls with the
15:55
Speaker 3: Trump two presidency, despite all the rhetoric. Beijing is represented
15:59
Speaker 3: by Xinhua University, it's public. Brookings Institute represents the Pentagon.
16:05
Speaker 3: They meet very regularly. I organise that and fund all that.
16:10
Speaker 3: And from 2019 onwards, It demonstrates that these superpowers can
16:15
Speaker 3: actually speak and be cordial and reach decisions which are
16:18
Speaker 3: in the best interest of humanity.
16:21
Speaker 2: The fact that he's achieved this is rather remarkable. The
16:24
Speaker 2: fact that it's survived three American presidencies, and by that
16:28
Speaker 2: I mean Trump 1, Biden, then Trump 2. The fact
16:32
Speaker 2: that it's survived that entire time, it was started I
16:34
Speaker 2: think around 2019, That in itself shows that it's resilient
16:39
Speaker 2: and perhaps contributing something of value, although we don't really
16:41
Speaker 2: know what at this stage. It's a dialogue. He seems
16:46
Speaker 2: to suggest that the point of all this is for
16:48
Speaker 2: them to scrum down and discuss the future of modern warfare,
16:53
Speaker 2: but to do so in the best interest of humanity,
16:55
Speaker 2: which is quite a humorous line. It's almost twee. And
17:01
Speaker 2: that appears to be the realm in which Andrew Forrest
17:04
Speaker 2: is trying to operate, whether it's on this matter of
17:07
Speaker 2: diplomacy between the superpowers and AI or whether it's, you know,
17:12
Speaker 2: his campaign against global warming and decarbonising mining. He's operating
17:17
Speaker 2: in the best interest of humanity and this is, I guess,
17:19
Speaker 2: the whole point of why I wrote the piece. It's like, well,
17:22
Speaker 2: that's great, mate, but who appointed you to be the
17:26
Speaker 2: prosecutor of that?
17:28
Speaker 1: Well, if you can create world peace, you know, I
17:30
Speaker 1: guess we'll all be on his side.
17:32
Speaker 2: Correct.
17:33
Speaker 1: Yoni Bishan, thank you very much.
17:35
Speaker 2: Thank you.
17:44
Speaker 1: Yoni Bishan is The Australian's North Asia correspondent. You can
17:47
Speaker 1: read all Yoni's work right now at theaustralian.com.au.