Latest / The Bold Lounge / Julia Boorstin: Mindset Matters- The Power of Women Leading Boldly

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Julia Boorstin: Mindset Matters- The Power of Women Leading Boldly · The Bold Lounge

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the lead or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold-quality mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have Julia Borston, who is CNBC's Senior Media and Technology Correspondent and also the author of When Women Lead.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Julia, for joining the lounge today.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to start off with the question that I ask all guests.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: The first question is What is your definition of bold?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: For me, the definition of bold is not being afraid and not holding back, particularly when it's something that you really believe in.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in your life, I bet you've had a lot of those moments, bold moments.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: What's one that strikes you as kind of one of the first or one of the ones that's memorable for you?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: I remember having to be bold starting in high school.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I did speech and debate.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I took a lot of academic classes that were really about speaking up in class and standing up for your perspective and explaining your analysis.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one APUS history class, I had an amazing professor, and we had these really heated, dynamic conversations.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember thinking this is when I have to articulate clearly what I think, what I understand, what I know, and not be afraid to speak up in this very competitive classroom environment.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it was just class, but now in retrospect, I feel like that confidence, that experience, speaking up, articulating things has really stood me in good stead as I've been a TV reporter and had to do live on-camera analysis.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, kind of on the spot confidence, right?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: No matter like who you're speaking to or the things you're speaking about or the emergencies that are coming up.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of agility too, I think, in your mindset, most likely.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Did you ever feel like you had imposter syndrome or did you ever feel like you didn't belong, kind of overcoming that pretty quickly?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think we all feel it every now and then.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's just how quickly you shift out of it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: We all feel imposter syndrome, 100%.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: We all feel imposter syndrome.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a question of how we deal with it, but also recognize, recognize it, right?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's a great New Yorker article about how so many people feel imposter syndrome all the time.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, I was joking with some female friends about it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like maybe we all feel imposter syndrome so much that it's not even a thing anymore.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so, but I think that it's more trying to identify what that imposter syndrome indicates.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Are you not feeling comfortable in the room?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you need to do more homework to make sure you really know your stuff so you're ready to walk in there and present your case or whatever it is?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, whenever I felt imposter syndrome, especially very early in my career, I took that as a sign that I needed to do more work.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I knew I was ready.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was really questioned a lot early in my career.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was a young reporter for Fortune magazine.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was 21 years old when I joined the magazine.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so many of the people I interviewed were men who are so much older than me.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they would question me.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: They would say, What do you know about my business?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: You couldn't possibly understand anything.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: How dare you accuse me of having my business be struggling?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: When of course this was like 2001 during the market crash.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they questioned me all the time.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, of course, I was going to feel anxious about that.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: But my solution to that was going out and doing the work.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So when people questioned me or when I was questioning myself, I knew that I had done the work.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I was ready and prepared.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think about it a lot like going into a high school debate.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're prepared, you're going to do a better job for whatever gets thrown your way.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's always my, you know, my response to imposter syndrome.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: One, figure out if it's necessary or it's real, or if it's, or if it's authentic.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the other hand, do the work.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to feel like you don't deserve to be there.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: You do deserve to be there.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: You did the work.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: You deserve to be there.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Did you always want to be a correspondent, or how did you land in that spot, especially at an early age, at 21?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: This was not my life plan.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very lucky that I fell into this awesome career.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've been at CNBC for 16 years.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of crazy to think that it happened very luckily.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, I studied history in college.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I always did journalism on the newspaper.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was in the newspaper in high school.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was in the newspaper in college, but I was going to go to grad school and study international relations.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided I got into grad school in London.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I got into the London School of Economics and I was going to take a year off and work for a magazine in New York because a bunch of my friends were moving to New York.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought a break from academia would be good.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I happened to get a reporter job offer from Fortune magazine.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I got rejected by a lot of places.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: I got much worse jobs from other places.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought I should take this risk.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was a bold move.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know anything about business or economics.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the woman who hired me at the time said, well, Fortune has a philosophy that you can't teach a business person how to write, but you can teach a writer about business.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I took that, took that leap.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a lot of imposter syndrome in my early days there.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And my my response to that was by asking everyone I could to help me understand all the stuff that I didn't understand.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I did a lot of, I did a lot of work to help, you know, prepare myself to overcome that imposter syndrome.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then that led me to appear on CNN, which at the time was owned by the same parent company.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then that led to a full-time job offer at CNBC.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing led to another.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I love my job and I love business news and it's so interesting, but it was not something I would have expected when I was 20 years old in college.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of, you know, you leaned into something that was unknown.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we talk about that when we're being bold.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's you're not sure of maybe the next step after that, but you know what the first step is.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like you took control of that.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other part that is really important to point out to the listeners is that you learned along the way.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you needed, you asked for support.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes as women, we may feel like one, you know, we should have all the answers or we shouldn't show vulnerability in our work, that we should have it all together.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think sometimes, you know, we don't.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that actually is more authentic and I think more accepted than ever now than it certainly was years ago.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, look, nobody has all the answers.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what I realized after 20 plus years as a business journalist is nobody has all the answers.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if they tell you they do, they are lying.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the people who say, I don't know all the answers, here's what I do know, here's what I am confident in, but here's what I don't know.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: The people who could be honest about what they know and what they don't, those are the people you should trust.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that comes across in authenticity, but um, nobody knows all the answers.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I do really believe in taking the next best step.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can never predict where your career is gonna take you.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And now with all this technology and crazy changes to the business world, we have no idea what our jobs are gonna look like in 10 years.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: But all we know is like putting your next foot in front of the other.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I believe really in this balance of like taking the next best opportunity and also trying to do long-term planning.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's something I saw in a lot of the female CEOs I interviewed for my book, When Women Lead.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something I truly believe.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I took walk through that door at Fortune magazine because it was the best option in that moment.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I would be there for a year, then go to grad school.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea that it would leave me to television and to this career that I have loved so much for the past two decades.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's always about like looking where the door is open.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: I created this thing called the Disruptor 50 list for CNBC, which has become this amazing franchise over the past decade because of a story I was doing on Facebook before it's IPO.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was digging deep into this company.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking, hey, people need to understand these private companies long before they go public.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: How can I use that inspiration to create something new?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's all about trying to pay enough attention in the moment to think either about which door you should be walking through or opening and which door you should be creating for yourself.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then having this long-term balance of saying, what do I want to do?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's a long-term goal.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I always had this long-term goal of writing a book, but it wasn't until I came across this idea of when women lead that I knew that this was the one.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a long-term process.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it takes years to write a book, longer to get it out into the world.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's always about like what's the near-term door and then what's the long-term, long-term vision.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I talk about what you know, the big goal with folks that I work with, but we have to think about all the things and the steps that we need to do to get to that big goal.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you're not writing down the big goal, you're you're doing the things that get you there naturally.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a good point.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: In the book, you and I want to jump into the book now.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things that there are over 60 stories that I think you can apply different pieces and parts or all of them in some way to how you lead as a woman.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter what industry you're in or what you're doing, profit, nonprofit, it doesn't matter.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're all applicable in some form or fashion.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think was a consistency between the stories and like a theme throughout?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many different personalities and characters and approaches I write about in the book.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And look, women are very different from each other.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: There is no one way to leave, no one one type of leader.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that the one common thread, and this really makes sense, is just really a growth mindset.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's to me what I saw as a growth mindset being is this combination of humility, again, the vulnerability, the humility to understand you don't know everything, you don't have all the answers, you have areas where you can grow, and then the confidence to understand that you can push yourself and you could take on new things and you can keep learning and changing and growing.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so many of the women who I write about and when women lead totally changed their lives because they had an idea and they knew they were gonna have to push themselves into a totally new sector or a totally new space to get there, but they had that confidence, but also the humility not to assume that they knew everything walking in.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's that humility, confidence, balance.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and by the way, sometimes the confidence is stronger and the humility is lower, or vice versa.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that that is a real, a really um consistent thread.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, look, I would say any leader, male or female, any gender needs to have a growth mindset.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like that that is a certainly a common thread I saw.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes these women were told, you have no chance of succeeding, you're gonna fail.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way you're gonna win at this.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And these women say, you know what, I have the confidence that I'm gonna keep pushing forward.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So many of the women I interviewed were rejected by hundreds of venture capital funds or even thousands.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: One woman I interviewed, Irma Olgwin Jr., she said she pitched to over a thousand funds before her idea got any traction.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So for sure, I think improvement, and it sounds like again, she kept going, regardless of, you know, she had a thousand no's and just need a one yes, right?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: In that perspective, and the tenacity to keep going, embracing change, the growth mindset that you talked about, that you even had that you talked about, you know, at 21, someone's telling you, well, you can't tell me about my world.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And especially, I think there is a sense that finance and tech are are ruled by men or are led by men.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, they they dominate it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the vast majority of CEOs in the business world are men.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Currently, 10% of the CEOs in the Fortune 500 are women, but that is way up from where it was when I entered the world, and it's even up from 8% last year.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't my imagination.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was outnumbered, and my rarity as a young woman in a male-dominated world was constantly being pointed out to me.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yeah, I know that I'm a young woman.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to tell me that as a way to belittle me.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: So how long do you think we should be patient?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is something I've talked about with Shelly Zales and the work that she's doing and the change that she's creating.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: We have seen improvement, and I think that, but to me, it's just not enough.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my virtues is not patience.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we have to be patient?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what can we do more of?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, these stories I think are incredible ways to apply that and empower, I think, the possibility that is now.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you would say we can do more of as women in leadership?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have a multi-part answer to this question.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love what Shelley Zalas is doing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think the way she's bringing women together, I think all the work to identify gender gaps, both in pay and in terms of promotion, are really, really important.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, I believe that data will help overcome bias because every type of data, whether it's about performance of public companies with female CEOs, private companies returning, you know, led by women, they yield returns to investors a year earlier on average.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: The value of having women in the C-suite, having women CFOs, having women on boards, all of that data indicates that gender diversity in business yields better results.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, the data also indicates that racial diversity in business yields better financial results.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the more that we can get that research, get that data, and then also talk about that data is important.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I also think it's really important to elevate the female success stories.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: That is what I do in the book.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are dozens and dozens of women's stories I dive into deeply in the book that are phenomenal success stories.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: We hear a lot about female failures, Elizabeth Holmes being first and foremost among them.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: She is in no way representative of what good, of what leadership looks like for women.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is essential, not just for women to have role models, but for men to understand that this is what leadership looks like.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: These are female leaders who have had massive success by doing things their own way.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: They don't look like the male archetype of leadership.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: They don't lead like those men, that they have found incredible success by doing things their own way.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the stories I tell in my book.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I want women to read those stories so they can use this book as a mirror and find their own traits and skills and strategies that they didn't ever value before and say, oh, look at the way this woman used her introversion as an advantage.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the way she used her empathy as a huge competitive advantage.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I want this book to serve as a mirror to women looking to unlock their own superpowers.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: I also want men to see this is what leaders look like.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the next time they're thinking about who to promote or who to invest in, they're like, oh, this is what a leader looks like.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think elevating the positive stories is important.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: But as to the question of patience, I think that women should not be patient waiting around for a promotion or waiting around to start their company until they feel like they're totally ready.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like women should say, hey, maybe if I'm 90% ready, I should start my company.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Be bold, go for it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or be bold, be bold.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think that part of being bold is not ignoring the situation that we live in, which is male-dominated business world.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think part of being bold is not being afraid to look at the data and look at the research and look at the challenges you may be up against.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: If female founders draw 2% of all venture capital dollars, don't be afraid of that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Don't ignore it.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna defy those odds by understanding them.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that you can be bolder if you understand the challenges that you're up against.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that my whole life, I tried to ignore the challenges I was gonna face or just like put a blind eye and say, it's fine, I'm just gonna keep my head down and do the work.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is the more you understand the obstacles, the better equipped you are to navigate them.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: So for instance, pay, promotion, starting a company, negotiating with someone, understand that you as a woman may be treated a little differently.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get angry about it, but understand it so you can go in there and better negotiate.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, when it comes to feedback and jobs, women are more likely to get feedback based on their style rather than their substance.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you're not getting feedback on your substance, you are missing out.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: You are not gonna get better as an employee.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's terrible.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And also to get feedback on style, which may be irrelevant to your job, that's kind of like a double loss to get feedback on your style, not on your substance.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas men are more likely to get feedback on their substance and not their style.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know that information, you know that that bias is out there, it's not malicious.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: That just may be the sort of instinct of your manager to do that.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: That they're not intentionally not giving you valuable feedback.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: But if you at least know that, that when you get that feedback, oh, you seem kind of abrasive or you seem too harsh, or these words that women get about their style that sometimes are sexist, they can say, hey, you know, I really appreciate this feedback, that my tone may seem, may not seem warm to you, but I'd really love to get some feedback on my substance of the work I've been doing as well.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So then I could be more effective.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it doesn't mean you have to be, you know, burst into tears about it.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that you need to be prepared to counter and say, hey, I'm I'm thanks for the feedback.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: But like, what about this other stuff that would be more valuable feedback for me to get?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's all about understanding the landscape.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And my book very, very clearly lays out ways in which women may face double standards.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't lay out that research to bum people out.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: I lay it out so you can use that information as ammunition.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can use it to fuel you and to make you bolder.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to be thoughtful and pragmatic and where to spend your energy, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if you spend your energy and expecting someone else to be like you, to think like you, to act like you, you're most likely not using it the right way.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And some of that feedback, I think maybe we visualize, I don't know how people visualize getting feedback, but some of that feedback, at least in my career, came from women talking about my style.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So a woman telling me I'm too much, I'm I'm too straightforward, I'm too this, whatever the two, insert the line.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And also I think negotiating for what you uh feel you deserve, I think can be challenging.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's some urban legend still out there about you know, you shouldn't be negotiating for your worth, you shouldn't be discussing some of these things, but you should.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really important from what you have in your book for people to kind of see the facts, see the data, which I love what you said data overcomes bias.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, we can then know you know where to put our efforts.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really important for people to see that.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And but what's interesting, you mentioned that it was women who gave you this feedback that seemed maybe sexist feedback.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really important to acknowledge that women have been just as influenced by these cultural archetypes and cultural stereotypes as as men have been, you know, if all you've ever seen is male leaders, when a woman starts to be a leader, the the instinct is to question that or to wonder if she's not fitting into the stereotype.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's why it's so important to change the stereotypes, not just for men, but for everybody.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And also I think as women, as we rise, I don't think we understand like it's important to bring people up with you.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and, you know, you know the the lovely statement that's out there.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, from the perspective of just knowing that the seats aren't limited.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think in some corporate settings, you know, if you think of business and tech, I'm in healthcare, so the pyramid gets smaller at the top.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes it it does feel like we're not all really welcome to the table.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there was a definitely a phase in business where women understood that if there was one of them in the room, they shouldn't help other women join them because there was only room for one of them in the room.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there was this sense of like, okay, there's only there is like a there's only gonna be one token women, so it better be me and I'm not gonna let anyone else come join me because then I'm gonna lose my my job.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that instinct to not want to help other people in that situation makes sense, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you give up your position to be just replaced by another woman?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I do think now that there are more women in business and this understanding that it's not good just to have only one woman in the room, I think that has enabled women to be more supportive of other women.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And just in the past 10 years, even just the past five years, I've seen a dramatic change in terms of the way women are actively helping other women.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's because everyone understands that we need we you can't have only one woman in the room.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we need to keep doing it and we need to amplify when it's being done.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, show the examples and share the success stories as well.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think women lead differently than men?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of mentioned a few of the things.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of research about the way women tend to lead.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is stuff that is socialized.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is not biological.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: But girls are treated differently and they behave differently on the playground from the time they're very little.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it, I have kids, and there's a lot of academic research about it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think it's important to point out that these are ways that women tend to lead and that men sometimes lead this way, but men would also be successful if they led in these ways.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: But just a couple of ways that women are more likely to lead.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Women are more likely to take a communal approach to leadership.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's pulling in perspectives across an organization rather than top down.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're more likely to deploy empathy and vulnerability as leadership skills.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important to talk about that the fact that empathy and vulnerability are not just for being with your friends and family, these are essential skills to invite collaboration, to understand people you're you're working with and even negotiating against.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's really key.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then women are more likely to practice gratitude, which correlates with patience.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a leader and you practice gratitude, you're more likely to make long-term plans and long-term decisions and not get caught up in anxiety about a near term win.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really important.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was a big surprise to me when I was researching the book.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then other things like women are more likely to take a divergent approach to problem solving and pull on threads and ask about tangential issues rather than just rushing and converging on a solution.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: There is a advantage of both of those traits.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, there's a lot of research showing that great products and solutions come from male-female teams.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: The combination of the male approach and the female approach is incredibly valuable.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think now more than ever, taking that time to ask about tangential things to really understand the landscape in such a crazy and unpredictable time is really valuable for people in business right now.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things you talk about is creating new patterns.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And as we're thinking about what that means, obviously the book lays it out, but one of the key things that especially kind of in the world of there's a lot of men and women in transition right now and unexpectedly and maybe planned or maybe unplanned, a lot of unplanned.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the one of the key things about creating a new pattern when you're in transition is to know that you have the opportunity to reset and to think about what's possible from your book, what would you apply creating new patterns to if someone's in transition?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's, I mean, I think the big picture about creating new patterns is understanding that what leaders look like, act like, sound like, the way they behave is actually different from the stereotype that's out there.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to all understand that we can be successful by leading in ways that and existing in business in ways that are authentic to us.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the key thing right now is really understanding who you are, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, what your goals are, and using that self-knowledge to push yourself back to the growth mindset.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: The more you really understand yourself, the more you'll be able to put yourself on a path to success.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for so long people felt like they had to fit into a certain mold to be successful in business.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: They had to dress a certain way, they had to talk a certain way, they had to think a certain way.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the reality is that if you actually are true to who you are, then you'll be more successful because you could say, hey, I'm actually not good at this thing.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Let me push myself to be better at this thing.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let me also hire someone to compliment me on this area that I have no experience or expertise.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it all comes back to sort of self-knowledge and then setting those goals, both the long term and short term.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the more you can acknowledge the things you struggle with and the things you really love doing, the more successful you can be when you try to figure out your next thing.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think self-awareness and self-understanding is probably the best gift I've ever given myself and it, you know, it's an ongoing process, honestly.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't think you're like, oh, I know me completely, but I think it is nice, you know, from my 30s to my 40s to now in my 50s of just understanding who I am and where I'm more aligned to my purpose, which, you know, starting my own escort, like it's just it's just a whole different world to be in in the sense of 100%.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean work isn't hard.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: It just means it's more aligned to what you're doing, which I think you then lean into some of those things that maybe you would have thought was a risk before then you actually try it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So as we close out from the perspective of women leadership and being able to really elevate others and share your success stories and feel like you can brag about yourself that because I think that's one thing that's the reason for this podcast actually is, you know, I had a lot of clients and a lot of women particularly that didn't think they were even being bold, but I mean they were doing things that would bring most people to their knees in in that respect.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what would be your advice for someone who really needs to think about or start really celebrating their successes and their boldness.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would start by really just writing down your personal traits.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of things that people have thought of as flaws can actually be strengths and deployed as superpowers.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's important to really understand what makes you you.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: What do you love?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: What do you hate?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: What do you what do you want to do more of what do you want to shy away from and really dig into your your existence at work.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love asking people questions.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes sense that I I love interviewing people for my day job, but I also know that's something I can get better at.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's all about saying okay this is something I love doing I want to do more of it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: How can I get better at it?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And how can I find more opportunities to do that?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it all starts with that self-knowledge that we've been talking about.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Invest in it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Invest the time in it because then like for instance, if you know you're very sensitive to criticism, you know, then when a situation comes up and you can be like wait a second am I reacting to this because I'm so sensitive or is this reasonable feedback?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think take the time to do the work both on yourself but also in creating your your path to success.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have friends who do vision boards.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't do that, but I do think about what do I want to accomplish in the next five years?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Five years ago I wanted to write a book.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like what are the steps that I'm going to need to get me there?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Which of these are easy that I feel like I got under control and which of them are going to require me to be really bold and push myself outside of my comfort zone.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot as I get older about trying to push myself outside my comfort zone more because it's hard but it's also really exciting and exhilarating.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess that would be my sort of jumbled answer for that question.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was a good answer.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's great.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's taking the time to think about the things that that really define you, that really are aligned with who you are and then doing the work.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you said that and I say that a lot to my clients and some of the organizations I work with is you have to do the work and some of it is easy or seems easier and some of it's hard and you're going to have to intentionally do it.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Plan for it.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Give it the time give it the value not put it on the back burner so I think that's so important for people to hear.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well if you haven't bought the book you need to buy the book when Woman Lead all the information is down below in the notes and thank you so much Joya for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was a pleasure thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of bold stories from vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.