Latest / Red Letter Christians Podcast / The Justice of Jesus: A Conversation with Joash Thomas

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The Justice of Jesus: A Conversation with Joash Thomas · Red Letter Christians Podcast

Hey everybody, this is Shane Claiborne.
Thanks for listening to the show.
There is a whole lot going on in the world and uh, sometimes you just need to be still and, and.
I hope this is a space where you can hear from voices that remind you that you're not alone in the world, in your, um, maybe in your, your anger.
I, one of the prayers I've been praying is that the Lord would make my anger holy.
Uh, I mean, I think of Jesus flipping the tables in the temple and.
Jesus felt the full range of human emotions as someone who was fully human, as much as, as Jesus was fully divine, as I believe it.
Um, so our anger would be holy also, that we would have outlets that we can channel our anger and pain and frustration into change.
Uh, but I also want you to hear from folks that.
That sing a beautiful version of Christianity with their lies and with their writing.
And, and so one of the, the best things I get to do with this radio show and podcast is, uh, hang out with great folks, and one of those is my guest today.
Joe asked Thomas, what's up buddy? Good to be here, Shane.
Yeah.
Among other things is just, uh, I'm an incredible voice out there.
Uh, I mean, you're kind of based in Canada these days, but you've been all over the place.
A lot of folks probably already follow you on the socials, uh, but you have such a pastoral heart, uh, uh, great head when it comes to thinking about theology and, and how our faith.
Impacts the way that we live in the world.
Just released this new book.
Congratulations, by the way.
The, the, the, the book is the Justice of Jesus and it's hot off the press.
Boom.
Shaka.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, this is, congrats on that man.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Thanks brother.
Yeah, no, it's been, uh, an exciting project and, uh, really grateful for your endorsement, which is on the front cover, Shane.
So thank you for partnering with me and getting the word out.
And, and I just told Joe Ash this, but, um, uh, I don't have the book in front of me because my wife, uh, as often she does like, rated my mail and, uh, got into the, uh, the, the kind of pre-release or this, this new release.
But you, you know, nowadays some of those come with little, um, things and sometimes it's like made in China earbuds or I don't know, a Frisbee or a bumper sticker or something.
But like, yours came, well, you tell folks how you came up with this.
'cause my wife was like, this is like.
Up there probably on the best, uh, book release packages I've ever gotten.
And that's why I don't have it in front of me.
But tell, tell everybody what was in it, man.
No, that's an honor.
That's such high praise coming from her.
But, uh, yeah, so you know, I.
The message of this book, the Justice of Jesus, is that the gospel is both physical and spiritual, right? Jesus cares both about our body and our soul.
So I thought it was only appropriate that, uh, as I bring my full self into this book launch, um, I also bring my Indian heritage, um, and I bring content that nourishes both the body and the soul.
So, uh, the book nourishes the soul and the bodies of our marginalized neighbors, hopefully, but.
But I also sent out a spicy butter chicken recipe, you know, to a few dear friends and to people who ordered the book early and, uh, and that nourishes the body.
So, um, excited for all the, the healing and the nourishment that'll come about, hopefully through this.
Yeah.
And I know that we're not just gonna talk about the book.
I mean, it's your latest thing that we're celebrating.
Uh, and for those who are listening in ti you, you should be hearing this around the time that you can still register for, uh, an event that Joe as is gonna be at here in Philly.
I'm really excited about it for so many reasons.
Uh, I get to hang out with folks like you, uh, and it's called the Peacemaker Summit, and we did it for the first time last year.
It has just had so much, um, energy and resonated with so many hearts.
I mean, in a world that's on fire where we think about so much violence, I mean, this week there were two executions by our government.
Um, in one night, uh, there were mass shootings.
I was just, I got some kind of.
Message that we've had like a thousand shootings in schools alone.
Just in schools this year.
Wow.
Um.
And there's the violence of our government with ICE raids and, uh, the funding and arming of, of Israel as we see the lives lost in Gaza.
I mean, that's, I think, on the forefront of many of our minds, the ongoing genocide and, um, starvation and, and, and revenge really of, of what's happening, um, in Gaza.
And you've been such a.
Important voice in that.
But you know, these gatherings where we can get together in person and hang out are so important.
So I'm, I'm pumped.
And if you can come all the way from Canada, uh, folks, maybe it will, will come, uh, from other places around the US and we actually have several folks coming internationally.
But, um, you know, when we think of Jesus, blessed are the peacemakers for they are the children of God.
Um, um, we, we need some peacemaking in the world right now, don't we, bro? Absolutely Shanda.
And I'd also say this, I think we also need a lot of hope right now.
Yeah.
Because people are so discouraged, uh, and rightly so by everything going on in the world, by all the injustice.
Um, and, uh, I think events like this and books and resources like this and podcasts like this are so critical to sparking the imagination for us and thinking Okay.
Where do we go from here and what are some good examples of what people are doing right now? And so for me, uh, coming to the summit in Philly, uh, this November is just an opportunity to come see, behold, uh, and, and, and spark my own imagination for fresh ideas.
And how do we, um, you know, how do we learn from people like red Letter Christians and raw tools, you know, uh, leading the, leading the charge on this reimagination work and, uh, and how do we leverage this, uh, to serve our marginalized neighbors at the end of the day? Yeah, dude, I, and I, you know, I think as, as I've been planning this, gathering that, uh, of the words of Dr.
Martin Luther King a lot, um, one of the things he said that's so true is those of us who love peace have got to learn to organize.
As effectively as those who love war.
Wow.
And, and we've gotta train ourselves in, in non-violence.
Dr.
King talked about institutionalizing nonviolence and learning nonviolence, like, um, so we've got folks that are coming that have entire tracks in their academic institutions, even even high schools that are, uh.
Incentivizing and learning deescalation.
They're learning ways of, um, anger management and conflict resolution and, uh, just, uh, uh, there's folks here in Philly that are violence interrupters.
So they're, they're literally trying to, um, get in the way and deescalate situations on the street before they turned deadly.
Uh, and we got all the forges coming, so we're gonna be like literally melting down, uh, guns and we'll be, um.
We've got all the blacksmiths from raw tools, from different cities coming together.
So we usually have like three or four forges set up.
So I don't know if you've done that.
We've done that together, but we get to beat the crud out of an AR 15 That's good for the soul.
And one of the other people coming, I'm so excited about Sharon Richer, I don't know if you've met her, Josh, but she, uh, her family was killed by Dylan Roof and the mm-hmm.
Um, you know, terrible targeted really to be.
To be.
Um, to say what it is, it was an act of racial terror.
Right.
That, that killed Wow.
Her family in the middle of their Wednesday night prayer meeting, and she's been such a force for love and justice, so she'll be with us.
And so it's, it's not like a traditional conference, y'all, where you can see all the keynote speakers and stuff.
It literally is called a summit because we are coming together.
From dozens and dozens of organizations and different spaces to, uh, dream and scheme and encourage each other.
I mean, we're gonna have speakers.
We're gonna sing.
We got some great singers and artists coming.
Um, we got a microphone that's made from melted down guns that have been 3D printed, uh, into microphone and it works.
So we'll be using that.
Uh.
But yeah, we, we, so I'm, I'm so excited you're coming and I, you know, I, I, I think those voices that we see, you know, you and I don't get to hang out a ton, uh, but we, you, you really, um, feel the value of folks that are speaking out, um, um, as, as Christians, distinctively Christians.
So I think it's helpful to, for folks to hear.
A little bit more from you, you know, about your journey, folks that haven't, you know, been familiar with your work.
By the way, Josh was also a guest on our morning prayer with Jonathan and I, um, a few months ago.
So we we're hanging out as much as we can, but, uh, um, you know, like the, the backdrop of your Indian heritage and your faith that's formed you, there's always some bones to spit out, but you really have Yeah.
Uh, embraced and bring that.
Full force, you know, in your, in who you are.
I mean, it's who you are and, but it's also in your theology and in your, your writing.
So maybe, yeah, say a little bit more about that, bro.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's also been the, uh, marketing package from the publisher as well.
No, no.
I'll tell you about, I'm a, I'm tell you how it goes.
If I, if anything goes wrong when we're cooking our, um, you know, our, our little recipe, but Right.
No, I mean, yeah.
Thanks for that question, Shane.
I.
I'm privileged to come from a long line of Jesus followers.
So my family has been worshiping Jesus for 2000 years now.
Uh, we're St.
Thomas Indian Christians, uh, and we're St.
Thomas Christians because it was the Apostle Thomas who brought the gospel to my ancestors 2000 years ago.
So we were Christian worshiping Jesus and unique.
Indigenous pre-colonial ways for 1500 years before, uh, the first Portuguese colonizer showed up.
And then, you know, the, the English colonial powers, um, and, uh, backed by the Church of England, the Catholic church, you know, so the Western Church participated in this effort of colonization, um, extraction of, um, wealth and resources from countries like mine.
But, uh, but also, um.
The active effort of trying to change, uh, the unique creator given ways of understanding God and neighbor, um, that have been shaped by this.
So, uh, what I try to do in this book, the Justice of Jesus is essentially a project of retrieval, right? So, sure, I invite us into the work of decolonization, but decolonization isn't the end goal for me.
Loving our neighbors is loving our neighbors better is and.
What I've seen as, you know, so I moved to the states when I was 18.
I, uh, worked in the republican, uh, republican political consulting world in Georgia.
Um, and, uh, and you know, Jesus saved me again from many of my empire shaped ways and, uh, put me on this path of working in, uh, international human rights over the past decade.
That's been.
Deeply transformational to me, uh, traveling the world and, uh, spending time with the church and the margins with survivors of violence and the margins.
And, um, and, and, you know, uh, this book is essentially an effort of retrieving ancient ways, of loving God and loving neighbor.
And, and, and, you know, decolonizing so that we remove the unhealthy aspects of the Western Christian faith.
We've inherited things like just these, just these tenets, what I call the tenets of the colonizer's gospel.
Like Jesus cares more about, uh, the salvation of our souls than the wellbeing and freedom of our human bodies.
You know, that's.
Not what you see in the life of Jesus and the gospels.
That's not what you see in the early church and in, uh, church traditions like the St.
Thomas tradition that have continued today.
So, you know, it's just hopefully an invitation for us to reimagine.
Uh, the first three chapters are diagnostic.
Uh, here's what's broken, but then next six chapters are, here's where we go from here.
And it's just an invitation, a pastoral invitation to the church to dream bigger for our marginalized neighbors everywhere.
Yeah.
I, I think that that, uh, when I saw that, you know, I read a pre, uh, an early copy of your manuscript Yeah.
And had the honor of, of giving you a little, uh, blurb for it.
A little endorsement.
Yeah.
But that the, that its so helpful to look back at, at how things, to diagnose a little bit how things became so, uh.
Unhealthy within our theology and our, it's more than theology.
It's also our, uh, missiology, right? Mm-hmm.
How we think of our mission in the world, how we think of, um, uh, what, what, what is God doing in the world? Is it just about personal salvation and going to heaven when we die? So you like, help unpack all that.
But you know, the, the, the last book that I did in rethinking Life, tracking some of like.
We, the early church and so much of the church through history has had a robust, uh, value for life and, you know, kind of in the conviction that every person is made in the image of God.
And that's a really helpful framework and that began to crack.
And I kind of like you do, I kind of show where those cracks begin to happen and then where that can land us.
Um, but then it's so important to like begin to say, how do we repair that? How do we, you know, move forward as we're looking back? And, and I, it feels like a lot, uh, you know, some of us can get stuck in the, the deconstruction, and I know that that's, that's where some folks are at.
I'm not trying to diagnose anybody, but I do think that, like, what I love about the work that you're doing and we're trying to do within Red Letter Christians is also, um, figure out like, like these abandoned houses, we're fixing up Josh, you're gonna see 'em.
You know, like, yeah.
What.
I just saw one of our house, we gotta knock down the whole back wall, right? You're like, okay.
And then we're gonna have to like, uh, build it back, but.
That we can do it.
You know, like, I mean, it's, it's, and there's other houses that they look really bad, but they just need, uh, a lot, a little bit of love.
They need some new sheet rock and stuff.
And, and I think that, that the work that you're doing is not just deconstructing, it's not just tearing down, but it's, uh, it's decolonizing, right? It's, it's, it's building up, um, a better faith that in some ways is, uh, finding a way forward by looking back where, where our faith has been healthiest, right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's something that I say throughout the book, you know? Deconstruction without decolonization is ultimately pointless for our marginalized neighbors because it does nothing for them.
Um, but it's not just important to decolonize, it's also important to reconstruct after that, right? Yeah.
The work you're doing physically and spiritually, um, you, we, we have to cast a positive vision forward.
And, and the good news is we don't need to reinvent the wheel as we try to do with our mod modern lenses these days, right? So, mm-hmm.
Uh, so I try to share.
Uh, good examples of Western church leaders prioritizing the work of justice from all, you know, all over the west.
Uh, but also, um, global south church leaders that are prioritizing.
Um, I bring the voices of liberation theologians from the global south.
Uh, so yeah, you know, I think I'm essentially trying to bring global South Christian theology to the Western church, um, in an ancient.
Way that helps us prioritize justice for all our neighbors.
And you know, I, I do this also with humility on my end.
Um, you know, I say that my own St.
Thomas Christian ancestors had blind spots.
We participated in the caste oppression of our lower caste neighbors.
Now what do I do with that? Well, I can't change the past, but I, I, I can be faithful in the present, and that's my invitation to the Western church.
We can change the past, but God calls us to faithfulness in the present.
So let's do that for the present.
Yeah.
And uh.
I, I, I think, you know, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about the institutions too, because Yeah.
My, my own feeling is that God is at work both inside and outside of the institutions.
I mean, I see that in Jesus.
Amen.
Right.
Jesus was.
Jewish and went to synagogue and, um, also flipped some tables and like challenged the, the monopoly that the temple had on God.
I mean, he's healing people in the streets for free.
Um, and, and, uh, you know, using things like mud and.
Bit and things that, uh, like I think mm-hmm.
Were part of the point, like readily available, not, uh, sold in the temple marketplace, but like, wow.
Like just, just kind of setting free the power of God.
Um, and yet also.
Kicked off his ministry.
Reading the scroll from Isaiah is like, kind of challenging The, um, the, the, the ways that the, the institutional, uh, religion has lost.
Its, its, its soul and its ways.
Um, um, but the early church wrestled with that too.
You know, like, like God moving on the outskirts of religion.
But God also like, um.
Re redeeming all things.
And so you're, you're in one of those apostolic like early tracks all the way back to the early apostles.
It's one of the oldest, um, streams of Christianity that we have.
So there's a lot to learn from that.
And there's, there's also, um, a sense of.
Those institutions can be, um, become lifeless.
You know, I think Tony, Tony, somebody else quoted it probably originally, but Tony Campolo used to say, I'm gonna see if I can get this right.
That tradition is the living faith of the dead.
Wow.
Traditionalism is, is the dead faith of the living.
That's a good one, right? Like that's so good.
So like tradition, the ancient liturgy, like so much of the, the saints, the like icon, that, that can be so much that reminds us of the best of our past, the, the living faith of the dead tradition.
But traditionalism is when those things are lifeless, like when it just becomes.
Empty rituals and the, the prophets talk a lot about that, right? When it's just like religion that doesn't remember a heart for justice and the poor and, you know, says the prayers and burns the incense, but, um, kind of forgot the whole point of it so that the, so you, you, you, you walk that line between the, the living faith of the dead and the dead faith of the living.
So, yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's, uh, it's important to understand the sins of our fathers, the trauma of our mothers, the communion of saints, you know, and hold them all in tension, uh, and at the same time walk with the spirit.
And this is why I am thankful for.
You know, the fact that I'm a fifth generation Pentecostal on my dad's side of the family.
Amen, Thomas.
But you know, for the last five generations we've been Pentecostal and, um, I, you know, I believe that the spirit is still trying to teach us new things about creator God, even today.
And, uh, you know, our, so yes, you know, don't be disconnected from tradition, but also be open to the voice of the spirit leading us in our world today because the spirit.
Cares deeply about our marginalized neighbors because the spirit is all about making all things new.
Right? Yeah.
And what do you see in the spirit doing right now? I mean, I think there's this, some of what we're all trying to be attentive to is like when Jesus said, yeah, give, you know, let us have eyes to see, and ears to hear and, and right now that's a prayer.
I pray a lot.
You know, give me eyes to see, and ears to hear.
Not just the, the pain and the suffering, but also like what has got up to mm-hmm.
Right now.
And certainly there's a lot of people leaving the church, but there's also, um, a lot of signs that people are still deeply.
Interested in Jesus and love and religion, the things that are at the heart, the heart of faith, and part of what's turned them off is that is religious folks that look so unloving and so unlike Christ.
Right.
Right.
You know, and Jesus said, if my disciples don't give me praise, the rocks will cry out.
Come on bro.
Come on.
Yeah.
I think that's what, that's what's happening.
The church has had the opportunity to be in the forefront of these justice issues.
Uh, and, uh, you know, we, we've failed miserably.
So, um, so now you have society and culture offering people who love Jesus better opportunities to prioritize justice outside the church, and people are taking it.
So it's discouraging.
And at the same time, it's encouraging because the spirit's still working.
Uh, if we have the eyes to see the spirit on the margins and the most unlikely places.
Hmm.
Hmm.
I felt that pretty deeply when I was, uh, in, at this recent gathering that we had, um, with our, our Palestinian pastors and theologians, you know, and, and these are also folks that, uh, go all the way back.
In fact, many of them are from Bethlehem, you know, Bethlehem Bible College, and, um, uh, the, exactly where Jesus was born.
And yet one of those areas that is, um, so deeply.
Um, hurting from occupation and.
Prejudice and policy discrimination and, you know, the, um, and, and yet like has such a deep faith and, and what they said over and over.
By the way, if you haven't seen it, y'all, um, either on God loves Gaza or you can go to church at the Crossroads or red letter Christians, like there's a declaration Yeah.
That came out of this gathering of solidarity with our Christian Palestinian friends.
And, um, but what they've seen is that.
The, that our faith is really on the line that, like when we say church at the Crossroads, it's not, um, just a, a, a catchy title, but they, they really feel like the credibility of the Christian faith is on the line because of how distorted some of, uh, this.
Theology has become, and wow.
And it's not just on the fringes, right? Uh, like, like this is some of the loudest voices within Western Evangelicalism, white Evangelicalism in particular, that, um, are trying to.
Defend the, the violence of, of the state of Israel and, um, you know, all that stuff.
So like, but it was beautiful to hear, uh, just the groundedness, right? And also the like, I mean, we were dancing, we were celebrating.
We had to like full like cultural celebrations that, uh, Palestinians are known for bagpipes and like, I mean, wow.
Uh, it was just a, it was, it was defiant joy.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and they said, we've been through a lot.
That's what happens when you're a part of a tradition that's been resisting empire for 2000 years, even more than that, right? But as Christians for 2000 years, you get the sense that no matter what empires do, they, they have a, a shelf life.
You know, like emperors don't live forever.
Um, and so, uh, it was, it was incredible, man.
But yeah, I thought of you while we were there and, uh, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
I, I couldn't be there in person, but I signed on to the declaration and so I'm there in spirit and I invite everyone listening to this to also sign on to that declaration.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, as you as, as, as we we're gonna have a little bit more of a conversation for the podcast, but as we close out the radio show, tell folks how to follow you and let's make sure, you know, everybody knows like.
You've been listening to Joe Ash Thomas, uh, his new book is The Justice of Jesus.
Tell folks how to follow you 'cause you do a lot of great work on, on the, the, the socials.
Yeah.
The interweb.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my Instagram is at Joe Ashby Thomas.
Uh, Substack is Jesus Justice and Joe Ash would love to connect with people there.
And yeah, go buy the book wherever you buy your books, it's out.
And come hang out November in Philly.
If, uh, if, if you, uh, haven't already registered for the Peacemaker Summit, um, you'll see it in a bunch of other events.
Uh, on our red letter christians.org
upcoming events.
We're also gathering and vigil around every execution.
We're planning for another direct action at Lockheed Martin, the biggest weapons contractor in the world.
That's where the many of the bombs and weapons that are being used in Gaza are made.
Um.
So, uh, we like the podcast, but we also like, uh, getting our feet on the ground and getting out in the street.
So, uh, any closing words brother? You wanna give us a little benediction as we close out, man? Yeah.
Yeah.
Go enjoy some good food.
Enjoy some butter chicken if you're in the uk.
Chicken te kama, whatever that looks like for you.
Blessings, yeah.
Awesome.
Joe Ash Thomas, y'all make sure you follow him.
Grab his book, justice of Jesus.
Cool dude.
Well, that's the podcast.
Okay.
Yeah.
Anything else you like, uh, as you're, you're, you're thinking about, um, the world where.
Now I know that you've like navigated some storms, um, and some pushback on things.
Yeah.
Like what, what you're, what you're learning through all of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have been trying to cultivate more wholly indifference, uh, this is something I've seen from the prophets.
Um, you know, just.
Being liberated of being unhealthily attached to the outcome and just prioritizing faithfulness, right.
And being indifferent to the outcome.
So the Ignatian prayer of indifference is, God make me indifferent to every outcome, except that which is your will, right? Yeah.
And this is what we see in Dr.
King's speech the night before he was murdered, right? He says, uh.
Been to the mountaintop.
I've seen on the other side.
I've seen the other side.
I may not get there with you, but I know all of God's children are gonna live in that land one day.
And, and I think I, you know, so many prophets in the church like Dr.
King yourself have, have just kind of embodied this.
Um, and, and you know, this, um, holy indifference posture.
And I think, I think that's what justice seekers in the Western Church need to do today.
Um, because this does have a cost to it.
Um, but.
You know, we're right in the center of God's will, so just keep being faithful and do the next right thing.
Yeah.
We receive that.
Holy indifference.
There's so many, yeah, so many things I think of with that.
You know, the, the line of Mother Teresa when she.
You know, folks were asking her about success and she said there's something more important than measurable success.
Basically, she said it's being faithful.
And wow.
Um, you know, Gandhi also had that where, you know, what you're doing may not feel effective, but it's so important to do it anyway.
You do it whether it's effective or not.
And, you know, Romero talked about that we're planting seeds that we may never see.
Uh, so you just, you just keep going and you know that you do what's right because it's right, not because, uh.
Because it's always seemed to be effective.
Uh, so Jesus, Jesus looked very ineffective in, in some ways, and, um, and yet, um, we know God's faithful.
So, that's a good word.
I received that one, man.
Yeah.
Y yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, you know, you've been embodying that for so long from the margins and, um, yeah, it's, it's just been an encouragement.
Um, you know, yeah, I think.
I think we're called to, I totally agree.
Um, we're called to faithfulness, not success.
I think the western empires that have shaped Western Christianity today and even Christianity in the global south, um, shape us to care so much about numeric success.
Uh, and so, you know, I have a friend who was at a missions conference, uh, actually just this morning, and he texted me saying, oh, we're talking about.
Uh, cost per salvation, uh, in the mission's world right now.
And, you know, like kind of bringing these Yeah.
Success concepts to spiritual ministry and Oh, physical ministry and it's, uh, it's, it's, it's heartbreaking that, uh, we're shaped, uh, to pursue success when we're called to faithfulness.
And success will come with that over time, or it may not, but we're not called to be unhealthily attached to those outcomes, you know? Yeah.
I mean, I even heard, uh.
Um, someone talking about Jesus' little, uh, crew there, you know, and you're like, man, I mean, even that little crew of 12, there were some, there were some hard times, you know, like one betrayed him as a couple of them, you know, Peter denied him and, uh, Thomas doubted and, uh, I mean, Judas took his own life and, you know, like, like these were not all up.
Perfect stories and, and so, uh, I think that's part of the point, isn't it? Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I also think, um, and I say this throughout the book, I am exploring this more and more now that I've written the book too, but there's, there's beauty in cultivating the eyes to see Jesus outside the church.
Um, especially when we don't see him in the church.
Um, you know, I love, uh, Celtic Christians would call, um, creation the big book.
And scripture little book.
Uh, and, you know, the little book is still important, but, uh, the big book is so vast and it teaches us so much about the creator.
And so, you know, let's get better at reading the big book.
'cause as an evangelical I was conditioned to read the little book so well, and to master it.
But, but I'm clueless about the big book, so I'm rediscovering.
You know, looking for Jesus and creation today.
And that includes all societies, cultures, religions, peoples, uh, because Jesus is everywhere if we have the eyes to see him.
Yeah.
On that note, uh, we, we can close out with a little, uh, cultural reference, which I, you know, I, I was thinking, is there so much that we can learn from other contexts? I, I was just an hour ago talking with someone South African.
I was thinking of, um, the Ubuntu Theology, which, you know, many people have really expanded on.
Uh, Archbishop Tutu was one of those that, um, I mean, it's also just.
Anchored in scripture too, that what hurts you, hurts me until you're fully free.
I'm not fully free.
You know, one, one part of the body suffers.
We all suffer with it.
But that idea of Ubuntu has some real beautiful theological, uh, handholds on it that, uh, I can't be fully who I am until you're able to be fully who you are.
And then you're, you know, in one of the things I, I learned in India in a really profound way.
I picked up a little Bengali in Hindu.
Here's so many different languages, you know, but the namaste or namaskar, the idea that, um, you know, written about it a little bit, but I, I, you know, you hear it like anything, it can become, um, I mean even like adios, right? Like.
To God, like a ascending forth, a blessing that we just sort of say, you know, um, wow, uh, you know, adios or whatever.
Goodbye.
But, but wow.
Nama say, I think probably not a lot of people, um, you know, they've heard it in yoga, they've even been to India and heard it, but that the, the.
I mean, what, what I learned about that was just that we are able to, as Martin Buber said, see another person as, as a vow.
As a as.
Mm-hmm.
As a, um, that, that which of God is in them, like the image of God is in every person.
And, um, right.
That's how it was explained to me.
But, uh, Hey man, you're the one from, from, you got a little bit more on that, but did you still like, um.
Embrace that the, the Namaste namaskar, uh, is a, is a beautiful thing, right? Yeah.
Yeah.
There's so much beauty in Indian culture that growing up evangelical, I was taught to look down upon because yeah, we know the truth.
Everyone else is wrong.
That was the mindset.
But as I've decolonized, I've come to see Jesus everywhere, right? So, um, you know, there's this beautiful value of pluralism that has existed so much of India's history where people live in peace with each other.
I feel like we in the west have no idea what to do with our Hindu, Muslim, Sikh neighbors who immigrate here.
Right.
We want to convert them or deport them, but, and we have no other frameworks outside that binary and how to love them.
Um, but I heard somebody say that India, India has no atheist, you know, idea.
Everybody has some, some like understanding God, but yeah, go ahead.
Right, right.
So, so true.
Yeah.
Because there's so many different unique understandings of creator God, and, and that's a beautiful thing.
You know, uh, Namaskar, namaste in specific, um, you know, namaha is like a Sanskrit, um, holy word for the divine right.
And it's in a lot of Sanskrit prayers that I would hear growing up in India.
And so namaste.
Very much, you know, is, it's, it's a holy greeting, uh, just like.
Shalom, uh, or Salaam, right? Yeah.
It's, it's the peace of God be with you.
And, uh, that's very much what Namaste na mascara is.
And, uh, yeah.
Thanks for reminding me of that.
I, you know, I just, you brought that for my subconscious.
Yeah.
Well, we'll go, we'll go out on that one.
Yeah.
Namas.
Yeah.
And, uh, uh, I honor the holy one who lives in you.
So bless you, my brother.
And, uh, y'all grab the book, justice of Jesus, hang out with Joe Ash, uh, here in Philly, or find him somewhere.
And, um, what a great voice.
You're, you're so, so refreshing and I'm grateful for you, man.
Can't wait to see you.
Thanks Shane.
Appreciate it.
Looking forward to it.
Bye for now, y'all.
If you haven't already gone to red letter christians.org,
join the movement.
We need you, we need one another.
We need the sweet Lord Jesus.
And we need, uh, Christians who are committed to love.
So, uh, join the movement.
I.
Hey everybody, this is Shane Claiborne.
Thanks for listening to the show.
There is a whole lot going on in the world and uh, sometimes you just need to be still and, and.
I hope this is a space where you can hear from voices that remind you that you're not alone in the world, in your, um, maybe in your, your anger.
I, one of the prayers I've been praying is that the Lord would make my anger holy.
Uh, I mean, I think of Jesus flipping the tables in the temple and.
Jesus felt the full range of human emotions as someone who was fully human, as much as, as Jesus was fully divine, as I believe it.
Um, so our anger would be holy also, that we would have outlets that we can channel our anger and pain and frustration into change.
Uh, but I also want you to hear from folks that.
That sing a beautiful version of Christianity with their lies and with their writing.
And, and so one of the, the best things I get to do with this radio show and podcast is, uh, hang out with great folks, and one of those is my guest today.
Joe asked Thomas, what's up buddy? Good to be here, Shane.
Yeah.
Among other things is just, uh, I'm an incredible voice out there.
Uh, I mean, you're kind of based in Canada these days, but you've been all over the place.
A lot of folks probably already follow you on the socials, uh, but you have such a pastoral heart, uh, uh, great head when it comes to thinking about theology and, and how our faith.
Impacts the way that we live in the world.
Just released this new book.
Congratulations, by the way.
The, the, the, the book is the Justice of Jesus and it's hot off the press.
Boom.
Shaka.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, this is, congrats on that man.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Thanks brother.
Yeah, no, it's been, uh, an exciting project and, uh, really grateful for your endorsement, which is on the front cover, Shane.
So thank you for partnering with me and getting the word out.
And, and I just told Joe Ash this, but, um, uh, I don't have the book in front of me because my wife, uh, as often she does like, rated my mail and, uh, got into the, uh, the, the kind of pre-release or this, this new release.
But you, you know, nowadays some of those come with little, um, things and sometimes it's like made in China earbuds or I don't know, a Frisbee or a bumper sticker or something.
But like, yours came, well, you tell folks how you came up with this.
'cause my wife was like, this is like.
Up there probably on the best, uh, book release packages I've ever gotten.
And that's why I don't have it in front of me.
But tell, tell everybody what was in it, man.
No, that's an honor.
That's such high praise coming from her.
But, uh, yeah, so you know, I.
The message of this book, the Justice of Jesus, is that the gospel is both physical and spiritual, right? Jesus cares both about our body and our soul.
So I thought it was only appropriate that, uh, as I bring my full self into this book launch, um, I also bring my Indian heritage, um, and I bring content that nourishes both the body and the soul.
So, uh, the book nourishes the soul and the bodies of our marginalized neighbors, hopefully, but.
But I also sent out a spicy butter chicken recipe, you know, to a few dear friends and to people who ordered the book early and, uh, and that nourishes the body.
So, um, excited for all the, the healing and the nourishment that'll come about, hopefully through this.
Yeah.
And I know that we're not just gonna talk about the book.
I mean, it's your latest thing that we're celebrating.
Uh, and for those who are listening in ti you, you should be hearing this around the time that you can still register for, uh, an event that Joe as is gonna be at here in Philly.
I'm really excited about it for so many reasons.
Uh, I get to hang out with folks like you, uh, and it's called the Peacemaker Summit, and we did it for the first time last year.
It has just had so much, um, energy and resonated with so many hearts.
I mean, in a world that's on fire where we think about so much violence, I mean, this week there were two executions by our government.
Um, in one night, uh, there were mass shootings.
I was just, I got some kind of.
Message that we've had like a thousand shootings in schools alone.
Just in schools this year.
Wow.
Um.
And there's the violence of our government with ICE raids and, uh, the funding and arming of, of Israel as we see the lives lost in Gaza.
I mean, that's, I think, on the forefront of many of our minds, the ongoing genocide and, um, starvation and, and, and revenge really of, of what's happening, um, in Gaza.
And you've been such a.
Important voice in that.
But you know, these gatherings where we can get together in person and hang out are so important.
So I'm, I'm pumped.
And if you can come all the way from Canada, uh, folks, maybe it will, will come, uh, from other places around the US and we actually have several folks coming internationally.
But, um, you know, when we think of Jesus, blessed are the peacemakers for they are the children of God.
Um, um, we, we need some peacemaking in the world right now, don't we, bro? Absolutely Shanda.
And I'd also say this, I think we also need a lot of hope right now.
Yeah.
Because people are so discouraged, uh, and rightly so by everything going on in the world, by all the injustice.
Um, and, uh, I think events like this and books and resources like this and podcasts like this are so critical to sparking the imagination for us and thinking Okay.
Where do we go from here and what are some good examples of what people are doing right now? And so for me, uh, coming to the summit in Philly, uh, this November is just an opportunity to come see, behold, uh, and, and, and spark my own imagination for fresh ideas.
And how do we, um, you know, how do we learn from people like red Letter Christians and raw tools, you know, uh, leading the, leading the charge on this reimagination work and, uh, and how do we leverage this, uh, to serve our marginalized neighbors at the end of the day? Yeah, dude, I, and I, you know, I think as, as I've been planning this, gathering that, uh, of the words of Dr.
Martin Luther King a lot, um, one of the things he said that's so true is those of us who love peace have got to learn to organize.
As effectively as those who love war.
Wow.
And, and we've gotta train ourselves in, in non-violence.
Dr.
King talked about institutionalizing nonviolence and learning nonviolence, like, um, so we've got folks that are coming that have entire tracks in their academic institutions, even even high schools that are, uh.
Incentivizing and learning deescalation.
They're learning ways of, um, anger management and conflict resolution and, uh, just, uh, uh, there's folks here in Philly that are violence interrupters.
So they're, they're literally trying to, um, get in the way and deescalate situations on the street before they turned deadly.
Uh, and we got all the forges coming, so we're gonna be like literally melting down, uh, guns and we'll be, um.
We've got all the blacksmiths from raw tools, from different cities coming together.
So we usually have like three or four forges set up.
So I don't know if you've done that.
We've done that together, but we get to beat the crud out of an AR 15 That's good for the soul.
And one of the other people coming, I'm so excited about Sharon Richer, I don't know if you've met her, Josh, but she, uh, her family was killed by Dylan Roof and the mm-hmm.
Um, you know, terrible targeted really to be.
To be.
Um, to say what it is, it was an act of racial terror.
Right.
That, that killed Wow.
Her family in the middle of their Wednesday night prayer meeting, and she's been such a force for love and justice, so she'll be with us.
And so it's, it's not like a traditional conference, y'all, where you can see all the keynote speakers and stuff.
It literally is called a summit because we are coming together.
From dozens and dozens of organizations and different spaces to, uh, dream and scheme and encourage each other.
I mean, we're gonna have speakers.
We're gonna sing.
We got some great singers and artists coming.
Um, we got a microphone that's made from melted down guns that have been 3D printed, uh, into microphone and it works.
So we'll be using that.
Uh.
But yeah, we, we, so I'm, I'm so excited you're coming and I, you know, I, I, I think those voices that we see, you know, you and I don't get to hang out a ton, uh, but we, you, you really, um, feel the value of folks that are speaking out, um, um, as, as Christians, distinctively Christians.
So I think it's helpful to, for folks to hear.
A little bit more from you, you know, about your journey, folks that haven't, you know, been familiar with your work.
By the way, Josh was also a guest on our morning prayer with Jonathan and I, um, a few months ago.
So we we're hanging out as much as we can, but, uh, um, you know, like the, the backdrop of your Indian heritage and your faith that's formed you, there's always some bones to spit out, but you really have Yeah.
Uh, embraced and bring that.
Full force, you know, in your, in who you are.
I mean, it's who you are and, but it's also in your theology and in your, your writing.
So maybe, yeah, say a little bit more about that, bro.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's also been the, uh, marketing package from the publisher as well.
No, no.
I'll tell you about, I'm a, I'm tell you how it goes.
If I, if anything goes wrong when we're cooking our, um, you know, our, our little recipe, but Right.
No, I mean, yeah.
Thanks for that question, Shane.
I.
I'm privileged to come from a long line of Jesus followers.
So my family has been worshiping Jesus for 2000 years now.
Uh, we're St.
Thomas Indian Christians, uh, and we're St.
Thomas Christians because it was the Apostle Thomas who brought the gospel to my ancestors 2000 years ago.
So we were Christian worshiping Jesus and unique.
Indigenous pre-colonial ways for 1500 years before, uh, the first Portuguese colonizer showed up.
And then, you know, the, the English colonial powers, um, and, uh, backed by the Church of England, the Catholic church, you know, so the Western Church participated in this effort of colonization, um, extraction of, um, wealth and resources from countries like mine.
But, uh, but also, um.
The active effort of trying to change, uh, the unique creator given ways of understanding God and neighbor, um, that have been shaped by this.
So, uh, what I try to do in this book, the Justice of Jesus is essentially a project of retrieval, right? So, sure, I invite us into the work of decolonization, but decolonization isn't the end goal for me.
Loving our neighbors is loving our neighbors better is and.
What I've seen as, you know, so I moved to the states when I was 18.
I, uh, worked in the republican, uh, republican political consulting world in Georgia.
Um, and, uh, and you know, Jesus saved me again from many of my empire shaped ways and, uh, put me on this path of working in, uh, international human rights over the past decade.
That's been.
Deeply transformational to me, uh, traveling the world and, uh, spending time with the church and the margins with survivors of violence and the margins.
And, um, and, and, you know, uh, this book is essentially an effort of retrieving ancient ways, of loving God and loving neighbor.
And, and, and, you know, decolonizing so that we remove the unhealthy aspects of the Western Christian faith.
We've inherited things like just these, just these tenets, what I call the tenets of the colonizer's gospel.
Like Jesus cares more about, uh, the salvation of our souls than the wellbeing and freedom of our human bodies.
You know, that's.
Not what you see in the life of Jesus and the gospels.
That's not what you see in the early church and in, uh, church traditions like the St.
Thomas tradition that have continued today.
So, you know, it's just hopefully an invitation for us to reimagine.
Uh, the first three chapters are diagnostic.
Uh, here's what's broken, but then next six chapters are, here's where we go from here.
And it's just an invitation, a pastoral invitation to the church to dream bigger for our marginalized neighbors everywhere.
Yeah.
I, I think that that, uh, when I saw that, you know, I read a pre, uh, an early copy of your manuscript Yeah.
And had the honor of, of giving you a little, uh, blurb for it.
A little endorsement.
Yeah.
But that the, that its so helpful to look back at, at how things, to diagnose a little bit how things became so, uh.
Unhealthy within our theology and our, it's more than theology.
It's also our, uh, missiology, right? Mm-hmm.
How we think of our mission in the world, how we think of, um, uh, what, what, what is God doing in the world? Is it just about personal salvation and going to heaven when we die? So you like, help unpack all that.
But you know, the, the, the last book that I did in rethinking Life, tracking some of like.
We, the early church and so much of the church through history has had a robust, uh, value for life and, you know, kind of in the conviction that every person is made in the image of God.
And that's a really helpful framework and that began to crack.
And I kind of like you do, I kind of show where those cracks begin to happen and then where that can land us.
Um, but then it's so important to like begin to say, how do we repair that? How do we, you know, move forward as we're looking back? And, and I, it feels like a lot, uh, you know, some of us can get stuck in the, the deconstruction, and I know that that's, that's where some folks are at.
I'm not trying to diagnose anybody, but I do think that, like, what I love about the work that you're doing and we're trying to do within Red Letter Christians is also, um, figure out like, like these abandoned houses, we're fixing up Josh, you're gonna see 'em.
You know, like, yeah.
What.
I just saw one of our house, we gotta knock down the whole back wall, right? You're like, okay.
And then we're gonna have to like, uh, build it back, but.
That we can do it.
You know, like, I mean, it's, it's, and there's other houses that they look really bad, but they just need, uh, a lot, a little bit of love.
They need some new sheet rock and stuff.
And, and I think that, that the work that you're doing is not just deconstructing, it's not just tearing down, but it's, uh, it's decolonizing, right? It's, it's, it's building up, um, a better faith that in some ways is, uh, finding a way forward by looking back where, where our faith has been healthiest, right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's something that I say throughout the book, you know? Deconstruction without decolonization is ultimately pointless for our marginalized neighbors because it does nothing for them.
Um, but it's not just important to decolonize, it's also important to reconstruct after that, right? Yeah.
The work you're doing physically and spiritually, um, you, we, we have to cast a positive vision forward.
And, and the good news is we don't need to reinvent the wheel as we try to do with our mod modern lenses these days, right? So, mm-hmm.
Uh, so I try to share.
Uh, good examples of Western church leaders prioritizing the work of justice from all, you know, all over the west.
Uh, but also, um, global south church leaders that are prioritizing.
Um, I bring the voices of liberation theologians from the global south.
Uh, so yeah, you know, I think I'm essentially trying to bring global South Christian theology to the Western church, um, in an ancient.
Way that helps us prioritize justice for all our neighbors.
And you know, I, I do this also with humility on my end.
Um, you know, I say that my own St.
Thomas Christian ancestors had blind spots.
We participated in the caste oppression of our lower caste neighbors.
Now what do I do with that? Well, I can't change the past, but I, I, I can be faithful in the present, and that's my invitation to the Western church.
We can change the past, but God calls us to faithfulness in the present.
So let's do that for the present.
Yeah.
And uh.
I, I, I think, you know, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about the institutions too, because Yeah.
My, my own feeling is that God is at work both inside and outside of the institutions.
I mean, I see that in Jesus.
Amen.
Right.
Jesus was.
Jewish and went to synagogue and, um, also flipped some tables and like challenged the, the monopoly that the temple had on God.
I mean, he's healing people in the streets for free.
Um, and, and, uh, you know, using things like mud and.
Bit and things that, uh, like I think mm-hmm.
Were part of the point, like readily available, not, uh, sold in the temple marketplace, but like, wow.
Like just, just kind of setting free the power of God.
Um, and yet also.
Kicked off his ministry.
Reading the scroll from Isaiah is like, kind of challenging The, um, the, the, the ways that the, the institutional, uh, religion has lost.
Its, its, its soul and its ways.
Um, um, but the early church wrestled with that too.
You know, like, like God moving on the outskirts of religion.
But God also like, um.
Re redeeming all things.
And so you're, you're in one of those apostolic like early tracks all the way back to the early apostles.
It's one of the oldest, um, streams of Christianity that we have.
So there's a lot to learn from that.
And there's, there's also, um, a sense of.
Those institutions can be, um, become lifeless.
You know, I think Tony, Tony, somebody else quoted it probably originally, but Tony Campolo used to say, I'm gonna see if I can get this right.
That tradition is the living faith of the dead.
Wow.
Traditionalism is, is the dead faith of the living.
That's a good one, right? Like that's so good.
So like tradition, the ancient liturgy, like so much of the, the saints, the like icon, that, that can be so much that reminds us of the best of our past, the, the living faith of the dead tradition.
But traditionalism is when those things are lifeless, like when it just becomes.
Empty rituals and the, the prophets talk a lot about that, right? When it's just like religion that doesn't remember a heart for justice and the poor and, you know, says the prayers and burns the incense, but, um, kind of forgot the whole point of it so that the, so you, you, you, you walk that line between the, the living faith of the dead and the dead faith of the living.
So, yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's, uh, it's important to understand the sins of our fathers, the trauma of our mothers, the communion of saints, you know, and hold them all in tension, uh, and at the same time walk with the spirit.
And this is why I am thankful for.
You know, the fact that I'm a fifth generation Pentecostal on my dad's side of the family.
Amen, Thomas.
But you know, for the last five generations we've been Pentecostal and, um, I, you know, I believe that the spirit is still trying to teach us new things about creator God, even today.
And, uh, you know, our, so yes, you know, don't be disconnected from tradition, but also be open to the voice of the spirit leading us in our world today because the spirit.
Cares deeply about our marginalized neighbors because the spirit is all about making all things new.
Right? Yeah.
And what do you see in the spirit doing right now? I mean, I think there's this, some of what we're all trying to be attentive to is like when Jesus said, yeah, give, you know, let us have eyes to see, and ears to hear and, and right now that's a prayer.
I pray a lot.
You know, give me eyes to see, and ears to hear.
Not just the, the pain and the suffering, but also like what has got up to mm-hmm.
Right now.
And certainly there's a lot of people leaving the church, but there's also, um, a lot of signs that people are still deeply.
Interested in Jesus and love and religion, the things that are at the heart, the heart of faith, and part of what's turned them off is that is religious folks that look so unloving and so unlike Christ.
Right.
Right.
You know, and Jesus said, if my disciples don't give me praise, the rocks will cry out.
Come on bro.
Come on.
Yeah.
I think that's what, that's what's happening.
The church has had the opportunity to be in the forefront of these justice issues.
Uh, and, uh, you know, we, we've failed miserably.
So, um, so now you have society and culture offering people who love Jesus better opportunities to prioritize justice outside the church, and people are taking it.
So it's discouraging.
And at the same time, it's encouraging because the spirit's still working.
Uh, if we have the eyes to see the spirit on the margins and the most unlikely places.
Hmm.
Hmm.
I felt that pretty deeply when I was, uh, in, at this recent gathering that we had, um, with our, our Palestinian pastors and theologians, you know, and, and these are also folks that, uh, go all the way back.
In fact, many of them are from Bethlehem, you know, Bethlehem Bible College, and, um, uh, the, exactly where Jesus was born.
And yet one of those areas that is, um, so deeply.
Um, hurting from occupation and.
Prejudice and policy discrimination and, you know, the, um, and, and yet like has such a deep faith and, and what they said over and over.
By the way, if you haven't seen it, y'all, um, either on God loves Gaza or you can go to church at the Crossroads or red letter Christians, like there's a declaration Yeah.
That came out of this gathering of solidarity with our Christian Palestinian friends.
And, um, but what they've seen is that.
The, that our faith is really on the line that, like when we say church at the Crossroads, it's not, um, just a, a, a catchy title, but they, they really feel like the credibility of the Christian faith is on the line because of how distorted some of, uh, this.
Theology has become, and wow.
And it's not just on the fringes, right? Uh, like, like this is some of the loudest voices within Western Evangelicalism, white Evangelicalism in particular, that, um, are trying to.
Defend the, the violence of, of the state of Israel and, um, you know, all that stuff.
So like, but it was beautiful to hear, uh, just the groundedness, right? And also the like, I mean, we were dancing, we were celebrating.
We had to like full like cultural celebrations that, uh, Palestinians are known for bagpipes and like, I mean, wow.
Uh, it was just a, it was, it was defiant joy.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and they said, we've been through a lot.
That's what happens when you're a part of a tradition that's been resisting empire for 2000 years, even more than that, right? But as Christians for 2000 years, you get the sense that no matter what empires do, they, they have a, a shelf life.
You know, like emperors don't live forever.
Um, and so, uh, it was, it was incredible, man.
But yeah, I thought of you while we were there and, uh, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
I, I couldn't be there in person, but I signed on to the declaration and so I'm there in spirit and I invite everyone listening to this to also sign on to that declaration.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, as you as, as, as we we're gonna have a little bit more of a conversation for the podcast, but as we close out the radio show, tell folks how to follow you and let's make sure, you know, everybody knows like.
You've been listening to Joe Ash Thomas, uh, his new book is The Justice of Jesus.
Tell folks how to follow you 'cause you do a lot of great work on, on the, the, the socials.
Yeah.
The interweb.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my Instagram is at Joe Ashby Thomas.
Uh, Substack is Jesus Justice and Joe Ash would love to connect with people there.
And yeah, go buy the book wherever you buy your books, it's out.
And come hang out November in Philly.
If, uh, if, if you, uh, haven't already registered for the Peacemaker Summit, um, you'll see it in a bunch of other events.
Uh, on our red letter christians.org
upcoming events.
We're also gathering and vigil around every execution.
We're planning for another direct action at Lockheed Martin, the biggest weapons contractor in the world.
That's where the many of the bombs and weapons that are being used in Gaza are made.
Um.
So, uh, we like the podcast, but we also like, uh, getting our feet on the ground and getting out in the street.
So, uh, any closing words brother? You wanna give us a little benediction as we close out, man? Yeah.
Yeah.
Go enjoy some good food.
Enjoy some butter chicken if you're in the uk.
Chicken te kama, whatever that looks like for you.
Blessings, yeah.
Awesome.
Joe Ash Thomas, y'all make sure you follow him.
Grab his book, justice of Jesus.
Cool dude.
Well, that's the podcast.
Okay.
Yeah.
Anything else you like, uh, as you're, you're, you're thinking about, um, the world where.
Now I know that you've like navigated some storms, um, and some pushback on things.
Yeah.
Like what, what you're, what you're learning through all of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have been trying to cultivate more wholly indifference, uh, this is something I've seen from the prophets.
Um, you know, just.
Being liberated of being unhealthily attached to the outcome and just prioritizing faithfulness, right.
And being indifferent to the outcome.
So the Ignatian prayer of indifference is, God make me indifferent to every outcome, except that which is your will, right? Yeah.
And this is what we see in Dr.
King's speech the night before he was murdered, right? He says, uh.
Been to the mountaintop.
I've seen on the other side.
I've seen the other side.
I may not get there with you, but I know all of God's children are gonna live in that land one day.
And, and I think I, you know, so many prophets in the church like Dr.
King yourself have, have just kind of embodied this.
Um, and, and you know, this, um, holy indifference posture.
And I think, I think that's what justice seekers in the Western Church need to do today.
Um, because this does have a cost to it.
Um, but.
You know, we're right in the center of God's will, so just keep being faithful and do the next right thing.
Yeah.
We receive that.
Holy indifference.
There's so many, yeah, so many things I think of with that.
You know, the, the line of Mother Teresa when she.
You know, folks were asking her about success and she said there's something more important than measurable success.
Basically, she said it's being faithful.
And wow.
Um, you know, Gandhi also had that where, you know, what you're doing may not feel effective, but it's so important to do it anyway.
You do it whether it's effective or not.
And, you know, Romero talked about that we're planting seeds that we may never see.
Uh, so you just, you just keep going and you know that you do what's right because it's right, not because, uh.
Because it's always seemed to be effective.
Uh, so Jesus, Jesus looked very ineffective in, in some ways, and, um, and yet, um, we know God's faithful.
So, that's a good word.
I received that one, man.
Yeah.
Y yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean, you know, you've been embodying that for so long from the margins and, um, yeah, it's, it's just been an encouragement.
Um, you know, yeah, I think.
I think we're called to, I totally agree.
Um, we're called to faithfulness, not success.
I think the western empires that have shaped Western Christianity today and even Christianity in the global south, um, shape us to care so much about numeric success.
Uh, and so, you know, I have a friend who was at a missions conference, uh, actually just this morning, and he texted me saying, oh, we're talking about.
Uh, cost per salvation, uh, in the mission's world right now.
And, you know, like kind of bringing these Yeah.
Success concepts to spiritual ministry and Oh, physical ministry and it's, uh, it's, it's, it's heartbreaking that, uh, we're shaped, uh, to pursue success when we're called to faithfulness.
And success will come with that over time, or it may not, but we're not called to be unhealthily attached to those outcomes, you know? Yeah.
I mean, I even heard, uh.
Um, someone talking about Jesus' little, uh, crew there, you know, and you're like, man, I mean, even that little crew of 12, there were some, there were some hard times, you know, like one betrayed him as a couple of them, you know, Peter denied him and, uh, Thomas doubted and, uh, I mean, Judas took his own life and, you know, like, like these were not all up.
Perfect stories and, and so, uh, I think that's part of the point, isn't it? Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I also think, um, and I say this throughout the book, I am exploring this more and more now that I've written the book too, but there's, there's beauty in cultivating the eyes to see Jesus outside the church.
Um, especially when we don't see him in the church.
Um, you know, I love, uh, Celtic Christians would call, um, creation the big book.
And scripture little book.
Uh, and, you know, the little book is still important, but, uh, the big book is so vast and it teaches us so much about the creator.
And so, you know, let's get better at reading the big book.
'cause as an evangelical I was conditioned to read the little book so well, and to master it.
But, but I'm clueless about the big book, so I'm rediscovering.
You know, looking for Jesus and creation today.
And that includes all societies, cultures, religions, peoples, uh, because Jesus is everywhere if we have the eyes to see him.
Yeah.
On that note, uh, we, we can close out with a little, uh, cultural reference, which I, you know, I, I was thinking, is there so much that we can learn from other contexts? I, I was just an hour ago talking with someone South African.
I was thinking of, um, the Ubuntu Theology, which, you know, many people have really expanded on.
Uh, Archbishop Tutu was one of those that, um, I mean, it's also just.
Anchored in scripture too, that what hurts you, hurts me until you're fully free.
I'm not fully free.
You know, one, one part of the body suffers.
We all suffer with it.
But that idea of Ubuntu has some real beautiful theological, uh, handholds on it that, uh, I can't be fully who I am until you're able to be fully who you are.
And then you're, you know, in one of the things I, I learned in India in a really profound way.
I picked up a little Bengali in Hindu.
Here's so many different languages, you know, but the namaste or namaskar, the idea that, um, you know, written about it a little bit, but I, I, you know, you hear it like anything, it can become, um, I mean even like adios, right? Like.
To God, like a ascending forth, a blessing that we just sort of say, you know, um, wow, uh, you know, adios or whatever.
Goodbye.
But, but wow.
Nama say, I think probably not a lot of people, um, you know, they've heard it in yoga, they've even been to India and heard it, but that the, the.
I mean, what, what I learned about that was just that we are able to, as Martin Buber said, see another person as, as a vow.
As a as.
Mm-hmm.
As a, um, that, that which of God is in them, like the image of God is in every person.
And, um, right.
That's how it was explained to me.
But, uh, Hey man, you're the one from, from, you got a little bit more on that, but did you still like, um.
Embrace that the, the Namaste namaskar, uh, is a, is a beautiful thing, right? Yeah.
Yeah.
There's so much beauty in Indian culture that growing up evangelical, I was taught to look down upon because yeah, we know the truth.
Everyone else is wrong.
That was the mindset.
But as I've decolonized, I've come to see Jesus everywhere, right? So, um, you know, there's this beautiful value of pluralism that has existed so much of India's history where people live in peace with each other.
I feel like we in the west have no idea what to do with our Hindu, Muslim, Sikh neighbors who immigrate here.
Right.
We want to convert them or deport them, but, and we have no other frameworks outside that binary and how to love them.
Um, but I heard somebody say that India, India has no atheist, you know, idea.
Everybody has some, some like understanding God, but yeah, go ahead.
Right, right.
So, so true.
Yeah.
Because there's so many different unique understandings of creator God, and, and that's a beautiful thing.
You know, uh, Namaskar, namaste in specific, um, you know, namaha is like a Sanskrit, um, holy word for the divine right.
And it's in a lot of Sanskrit prayers that I would hear growing up in India.
And so namaste.
Very much, you know, is, it's, it's a holy greeting, uh, just like.
Shalom, uh, or Salaam, right? Yeah.
It's, it's the peace of God be with you.
And, uh, that's very much what Namaste na mascara is.
And, uh, yeah.
Thanks for reminding me of that.
I, you know, I just, you brought that for my subconscious.
Yeah.
Well, we'll go, we'll go out on that one.
Yeah.
Namas.
Yeah.
And, uh, uh, I honor the holy one who lives in you.
So bless you, my brother.
And, uh, y'all grab the book, justice of Jesus, hang out with Joe Ash, uh, here in Philly, or find him somewhere.
And, um, what a great voice.
You're, you're so, so refreshing and I'm grateful for you, man.
Can't wait to see you.
Thanks Shane.
Appreciate it.
Looking forward to it.
Bye for now, y'all.
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