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When Everything in on the Line: Scott Rosenblum The Art of Criminal Defense · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:04
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
0:07
Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
0:10
nightmares that set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:20
These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad.
0:23
There's some humor, but hopefully you can come away with
0:26
a nugget of something that'll help you knock down some of the
0:28
prisons you built up in your own mind.
0:40
What? Welcome back.
0:42
I'm your success listeners. This is where you come from.
0:44
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality, How
0:46
you adapt, survive, overcome, set yourself free.
0:49
I know I sound like a like a broken record, but folks, don't
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forget to follow, subscribe, share this thing out, like it
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up. It really helps the show and I
0:56
appreciate it. So who are we talking to today?
1:01
Well, I've actually known my guess, Scott Rosenblum for a
1:06
while. I think I was when I was looking
1:09
back when he was talking about it, you know, his, his first big
1:11
case. I kind of think I, I met him
1:15
like around when I was probably like 16-17 years old and he was
1:20
out of law school and he was like 262728 years old.
1:24
So it's been a while, it's been a while because I'm, I'm 58 now.
1:28
So we've known each other and our kids know each other.
1:30
So it's, it's a, a long time deal.
1:33
But so a lot of people who listen to this show know that a
1:38
lot of people have been just dis impacted. 99.9% of the people on
1:42
the show are, but not Scott. Scott is a criminal defense
1:46
attorney. And if you're from around my
1:49
part, she's the best criminal defense attorney here in the
1:52
Saint Louis area and and anywhere around here.
1:56
Scott is the president, principal founding member of the
1:59
Rosenblum, Schwartz, Fry and Johnson law firm.
2:03
He's got 42 years, 42 years of being in this business, over 450
2:11
trial cases, 450 trial. It's a lot in 2016.
2:18
What'd you say, Scott? Don't remind me.
2:23
In 2016, Scott was inducted into the International Academy of
2:27
Trial Attorneys. He's listed in the Saint Louis
2:30
magazine's best lawyer Zuri and and Kansas Super attorney
2:34
lawyers, Best Lawyers in America, Woodward White, the the
2:38
list goes on and on. Here he's also a lecturer from
2:41
Missouri Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys, Missouri Bar
2:44
Association Association, so on. And this was what caught my
2:49
attention. I know he has to love this.
2:53
He has been compared to Michael Jordan.
2:55
Scott Rosenblum has been compared to Michael Jordan by
2:59
one of the best running backs in NFL history who was also a
3:02
client, Marshall Falk. And Marshall had this to say
3:07
about Scott. You know, Michael Jordan is the
3:09
best and he watched him on TV. But when you watch him on the
3:13
court, man, it's different than being there, sitting there
3:16
watching it. And it's different when it's
3:18
your life. He's good.
3:20
That is from Marshall Fuck. And and you know, Scott has had
3:24
a career where he's obviously represented a lot of people that
3:31
they don't have big names. But when you throw Nelly Ezekiel
3:34
Elliott, the governor of Missouri County Executive, on
3:37
and on and on, he's he's been around a lot of really big cases
3:41
and he wins a lot of really big cases and and it's become legend
3:45
around these parts. And the reason I wanted to have
3:48
Scott on is that, you know, this so many people get caught in the
3:52
system and, and Scott has been dedicating his passionate life
3:57
to talking and defending and figuring out people who get into
4:03
this system and especially on the federal side.
4:05
So I can't wait to talk to him about all this.
4:08
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Doctor not guilty. He was actually Doctor Rifai was
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I want to check out that episode.
5:30
All right, welcome in Scott the Scott Rosenblum.
5:34
How are you, man? I'm good, I'm good.
5:37
Thanks for having. Me.
5:38
Well, it's, it's, it's great having you.
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I want a lot of people know a little bit all around you.
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But Scott, I know you're from Saint Louis.
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Take the listeners back to what life was like for you growing up
5:54
in Saint Louis as a kid. I mean, basically pretty normal,
6:01
you know, just a Park 3 Central kid that we would play sports,
6:06
football, baseball. You know, my parents didn't have
6:10
a lot of money and by the time I was shifting ready to go to
6:12
college, whatever money they had, they'd lost it when their
6:16
business sort of went bad on Washington Ave.
6:19
So. There was a garbage district bag
6:21
business, wasn't it? Yeah, the handbag business.
6:23
Handbag business. And then, you know, like a lot
6:27
of Saint Louis kids, you sort of matriculate just as to what
6:30
normal is. And back then, it was at
6:33
University of Missouri, Columbia.
6:35
The tuition back then, by the way, when I started, was $3000 a
6:41
semester. Oh.
6:43
My God. $3000 and I bartended my way through through college and
6:50
able to pay for it and pay for my way.
6:52
But yeah, it's amazing. I don't, I think it's like 16 or
6:54
17,000 a semester now. Oh yeah, yeah.
6:57
I mean, it's, it's a totally different world.
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That 3000, that was like $25 a credit hour.
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So. Did I say that was no $300 a
7:06
semester? Yeah, $300 a semester. $300 a
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semester. Man, that's just, that's almost
7:13
hard to believe because it's everything's just gotten so far
7:16
out of control with all the education costs on everything.
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So when you were going through, I know you're you've always been
7:24
a competitive guy. I know you're a superstitious
7:26
guy, but in fact I read and I don't know if you still do this.
7:32
Is it still true that when you go to trial that you will eat
7:35
the same thing every day for lunch?
7:38
I never sent I just tried a murder case in Jefferson County
7:41
about 3 weeks ago. A cold case and because when I
7:47
sent some scouts, I couldn't really find a good Turkey
7:51
sandwich. So I had to make sure that I
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brought my own Turkey sandwich. It has to be exactly the same
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way. Mustard on both sides, no
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cheese. It's horrible.
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But I've been eating the same thing for 43 years and and
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that's just the way I do things. I've always done that.
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I don't, I'll never wear red on my chest.
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I'll never wear red tie. If I lose the clothes, the tie
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that I wore, closing argument, I have to sacrifice it.
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I cut it off, even if it's expensive.
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Sometimes I try not to wear the ties on closing argument day.
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What else? I've been burning a Catholic
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votive candle in my house. Not 43 years I've been wearing.
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I've been carrying the same pen case for for every trial.
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Those 450 trials, the pen case has been there.
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Everyone else, in fact, I don't know, about 2-3 years ago, I
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went over to try a case in the county and I set up.
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I set my stuff up, but I didn't have my pen case.
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And I walked up to the I said we can't start.
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I said I don't have my pen case. He looked at me like I was nuts.
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I said, but you know, that's just the way it is.
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I had to get my pen case. So yeah, I have superstitious.
8:59
No, I and I get that. I mean, I, you know, a lot of a
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lot of athletes have that, you know, they won't they won't do a
9:04
they wear the same size, all the different things that go on with
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that. But I think it's interesting to
9:09
Scott on you didn't come from a family that was, you know, like
9:17
you said, they weren't wealthy, they weren't in the legal
9:18
profession. They were they were making
9:21
handbag garments. What got you into thinking
9:26
attorney? Well, I had two people.
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My my father's first cousin, Stanley Rosenbloom, was a well
9:35
known, sort of, sort of a genius guy, but did a lot of criminal
9:39
attacks. He actually represented Jimmy
9:41
Hoffa in in Washington. And then my uncle Howard Whitner
9:46
had a practice here. And I started out taking a job
9:50
in the LADAS office, started there and then just decided to
9:56
come home and started working for Howard.
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And my first job sort, sort to lack a better word, was to try
10:05
case without a bankruptcy court. And I had no idea the bankruptcy
10:09
court actually had jury trials. They do.
10:12
I mean, like, for instance, if you owe the estate money, the
10:15
trustee can appoint a lawyer to go out and do your personal
10:18
injury case. So I started trying cases there,
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and I liked it. And then because I grew up on
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the mean streets of Creve Coeur and Parkway Central, I started
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getting former friends from high school.
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That guy got in trouble representing them and the rest
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was history. Well, I know that and I know
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that you kind of got a, a feel for it when you were in law
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school and you just thought, man, I kind of like this whole
10:42
thing, these mock trials with the courtroom and the and the
10:47
jury. But I do know there, there was
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one case that happened and you were a young man, 1987 John
10:55
White, accused of killing a Jennings police officer.
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And it was a big case and he he was found not guilty, correct.
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And Scott, I'm just wondering like, first of all, I mean,
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you've got, how old would you been in 1987?
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I was 1987. I would have been. 30 OK, 30
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years old. And I had, at that time, I had
11:26
tried maybe one other murder case on assignment.
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It was a public defender case that could appoint private
11:33
lawyers. To this day I have no idea why
11:35
this family walked in and hired me.
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No idea. And they walked in.
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That's what I was going to ask you is how you got that case.
11:41
So you don't even know. I mean, it started out as a
11:43
death penalty case. I never had a death penalty
11:45
case. I remember walking in at the
11:49
courthouse that day for its first appearance.
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And you can sort of hear all the whispers behind you, like, sort
11:56
of like, what the hell is this guy?
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Who does he think he is? Right.
11:58
I mean, that was a significant case.
12:02
And, you know, we tried it. There was videotaped confession,
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audio tape confession, a written confession.
12:12
We were able to establish at one point that the Jennings police
12:16
officers were basically stopping every African American that
12:21
would come through the state, come through the city, bring him
12:24
in the department, rough him up, get him to make a confession,
12:27
then play the tape. You confess.
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So now what? Now, you might as well tell us.
12:32
And we got, I know that they didn't.
12:36
I don't think they ever meant to send it to us.
12:37
I mean, the prosecutor was a very up and up guy, Bill Miners,
12:41
great guy. But we got a bag of discovery
12:44
that contained all the flip sides of these tapes.
12:47
And all of a sudden we're listening to all these horrific
12:50
interrogations. So yeah, that's what happened.
12:53
And he was found not guilty and I get hired by the son of a
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highest ranking black police officers at the time.
13:00
It was accused of death penalty case who was accused of killing
13:02
him, white Saint Louis County officer Dennis Blackman.
13:08
After that, all the phone calls I ever got were criminal.
13:12
It's really something because, you know, I, I wonder like with,
13:16
with that kind of a case and, and knowing, you know, this is
13:21
this is a big case. I'm a young guy.
13:24
This guy's put, you know, his life in my hands.
13:26
Were you thinking while this case was going on?
13:29
Did you think that, Hey man, I, I think I've got a good groove
13:32
here. I'm doing good.
13:33
I we've got a shot at this. I mean, did you start feeling
13:36
like? Oh yeah, you always feel that.
13:39
Way always feel that way. And most of the time it bears
13:41
out. Sometimes you feel that way and
13:43
the jury returns averted to get you.
13:45
So wait a second. What did I do this?
13:47
How bad? Now unfortunately I don't have
13:49
to go out, so those aren't fine. Well, I mean, things change, but
13:54
I mean, things change for somebody in that world.
13:56
I mean, it's it is kind of like sports, You know, you win a big
14:00
game, you're kind of an underdog and nobody knows who you are.
14:03
And then, you know, it gets a lot of press.
14:07
I'm sure you thought it had to been going through your mind,
14:10
Hey, this was a big deal. I'm going to get recognized for
14:13
this and my life could change from everything I wanted to do.
14:19
This is my passion. I think it happened more
14:21
gradually, but yeah, obviously, I mean, you know, the next day
14:25
when all of a sudden your phone's ringing off the hook and
14:27
that's never happened. That hadn't happened to me
14:29
before. Yeah, I recognize it sort of
14:32
gradually, but I never really focused on that.
14:36
I mean, I truly just love trying cases.
14:38
And that's how I, you know, when I talked to young lawyers, I
14:41
said find your cash. I've never been into
14:43
advertising. Now I was fortunate because back
14:46
when I started trying cases, especially murder cases, there
14:49
was 2 newspapers, the Globe and the Post and everything,
14:53
everything was covered throughout the whole case.
14:57
So now you know, these young guys, they're, there's all sorts
15:02
of advertising on Instagram, on this, on Billboard.
15:05
The problem with that is from talking to the judges, you can
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get the case, but you don't have a wherewithal to actually be a
15:12
lawyer, know what to do with the case.
15:14
And it's sort of, you know, I don't like to see it.
15:18
Well, he's because that's one of the things that we're going to
15:20
ask you, you know, being in 42 years, is that one of the
15:24
biggest things that you've seen change and, and the in your
15:28
world. Comedia and the access to the
15:31
different ways to attract clients, the attentive nature of
15:40
it, I don't really get involved in that.
15:42
But yeah, just the whole advertising team has really
15:46
changed. And also, I think has created
15:49
less of a collegiality among lawyers because it's more like,
15:56
you know, every man for themselves.
15:58
It's, you know, I don't really get involved in that, but it's
16:00
sort of sad to see. And I, you know, Scott, you,
16:04
you've got a reputation though, of, of being able to move pretty
16:08
freely and respected because you go into war sometimes with the
16:15
men in blue, you know, police, you know, you've, you've got the
16:20
prosecutors that you've got to work with.
16:22
And you know, is, is that something like if you were going
16:27
to give a young guy that's coming into the business, I, I'm
16:32
assuming that one of the things you might tell him is it's,
16:35
it's, it's the little things that make a difference and.
16:40
I'll give you an example. Every time I go into a
16:44
courtroom, especially if I'm untenaling A courtroom, I make
16:47
it my business first thing to know everybody in that
16:50
courtroom, who the bailiff is, who the court reporter is, who
16:53
the court clerk is, and treat them with respect.
16:56
So many young lawyers all of a sudden think that they're now
17:00
that they're a lawyer makes them better than these people.
17:03
They have no clue. These people can ruin your, ruin
17:06
your life, literally ruin your life.
17:08
And they're a direct ear to the judge.
17:11
So if you're rotten to them, what do you think the judge is
17:14
going to do to you? So I don't see a lot of, and
17:20
that goes back to, I don't think there's a lot of mentoring going
17:22
on now for young lawyers and just on their own.
17:25
I try to with lawyers and my generation, well, unfortunately
17:29
a lot of them are starting to die off, but a lot of my
17:33
generation has always done that. Young guys like Don Wolf,
17:37
Margulus, Daryl Barris, those guys, but you don't see a lot of
17:45
that anymore. Well, do you think I know a lot
17:50
of people and a lot of people listen to this?
17:52
We're, we're kind of running down our, our lane here, People
17:56
who've, who are looking for good criminal defense attorneys and
17:59
people who have been through the system.
18:03
Everybody wants the best defense they can get and they want the
18:07
best attorney they can get. But I was curious on your side
18:12
with what makes a good client for you?
18:15
Like what? What can a?
18:17
What can a client do to help you?
18:21
Well, it's a two way street. So I think the first thing to
18:25
recognize is not to be jaded and realize that this individual is
18:30
coming to you at their worst possible moment.
18:34
And although things move in slow motion for us, because we've
18:39
been through it so many times, a lot of clients are like they
18:43
used to confuse, especially white collar clients all of a
18:46
sudden are facing federal criminal justice system for the
18:48
first time in their life. And you know, everything is it's
18:52
like all of a sudden it's things can move quickly in federal
18:55
systems. Like all of a sudden, you know,
18:58
somebody said, OK, well, here's the deal.
18:59
You got to learn. You got to learn Greek in three
19:02
weeks or a month and then sort through it and make informed
19:05
decisions based on what you just learned in Greek.
19:08
And a lot of times what I see is the breakdown of communication
19:13
is that lawyers don't they get jaded and they don't take the
19:16
necessary time to realize what this person's going through on
19:20
all different levels that you go through the process.
19:22
A lot of especially white collar clients can't wrap their brain
19:26
around why this isn't a civil case, especially when they've
19:30
been in business the whole life. And I used to dealing with
19:34
business controversies and everything is resolved by
19:36
negotiation or by settlement or by finances.
19:40
And they it's very difficult to explain that this isn't
19:44
necessarily and may be in business controversy, but it has
19:48
touched upon certain statutes that may implicate federal
19:53
crimes. You know, and a lot of look, I
19:57
think it more I'm going off on a tangent.
20:01
I love it. More white collar defendants
20:04
would press the system. You'd find a lot more not
20:07
guilty, OK? So that's that's a question I
20:10
wanted to ask you because it's something we talk about a lot on
20:15
the show with guests. So that, you know, there's the
20:19
crazy, I'm only talking about the federal side here, but
20:23
there's a crazy statistic out there.
20:24
It can go some people use 96%, some people use 97%, some 98%.
20:30
In the federal system, if you're indicted, 9697% of the people
20:37
plea, and that's a big percentage.
20:41
OK, Well, I think that the the statistic I always heard was 96
20:46
to 97% conviction rate. And, and and that's a misnomer
20:52
because the Department of Justice takes the conviction
20:55
rate includes people that have pled guilty, right?
20:59
If you take strictly trials, the rate will go down.
21:02
Now I've heard that all the time.
21:03
I mean, there's a lot of, you know, Horror Story, so to speak,
21:08
when a person enters the federal system and they start talking to
21:11
people, especially if they can't get bond and they're
21:13
incarcerated and things of that nature.
21:15
And they and and they like to promote that data.
21:19
The feds like to promote that data because it dissuades people
21:23
from going to trial. And, you know, I've heard
21:26
thousands of times, well, you can't be decided.
21:28
Well, you can't. I mean, you know, I'll be the
21:31
first to tell you probably one more than 80% of my state cases.
21:34
And I've tried a lot more state cases in federal cases, but I'm
21:37
sure I've tried 4050 federal trials by now, maybe more, I
21:42
don't know, which is a lot because federal cases don't go
21:45
to trial that often. I'm sure I've won over half, but
21:50
you got to take the risk and it takes a certain makeup for an.
21:57
Individual and I'm wondering in your, in your position because
22:03
when somebody comes to you, especially we're talking about
22:05
white collar cases. Let's just say we're talking
22:07
about white collar cases. The guy doesn't know anything
22:09
about anything. He's been running a company and
22:11
all of a sudden he's looking at losing everything he's got.
22:15
And, and they're, they're stacking charges and, and you
22:19
know the way they stack those things, they can carry 20 years
22:22
apiece when they stack things. So you could be looking at
22:26
hundreds of years, but if you know that somebody has a really
22:32
good case, but this guy is freaked out on this side that
22:37
he's having everybody say, well, my God, you could go away
22:40
forever. How do you balance that out,
22:42
Scott to so not dissuade him from the fact that he's scared
22:47
to death over here, but to really give him confidence that,
22:50
hey, man, you've got a really good case here.
22:52
If you if you trust me, I I could take this and and make
22:55
something of it. It's really a balancing act
22:57
because first of all, historically I've I have found
23:03
that the most dissatisfied client are the clients that feel
23:09
that they were forced somehow by some outside forces, whoever
23:13
that may be. When it's the lawyer or whether
23:14
it's family to plead guilty when they really didn't want to plead
23:17
guilty versus the client that goes to trial and assuming that
23:24
in that trial they had a very effective lawyer and they fought
23:27
like hell and they made all the points, win, lose or draw, that
23:30
client typically is happier because they feel like they have
23:34
been hurt. So I don't ever want to be the
23:37
lawyer to push them one way or the other.
23:40
Obviously, I want to provide all the information now.
23:45
You know, there's cases that, you know, there's reams of
23:50
videotape and audio tape and informants.
23:53
You know, there's cases where I had a situation where the man
23:58
that was being investigated would go into the office every
24:00
day. Everybody in the office was
24:02
wearing wires. So, you know, that's bad, that's
24:05
bad, that's bad, that's bad, bad.
24:09
But I never want to push them one way or the other.
24:12
I, I basically, I just try to be a support.
24:14
If you want to go to trial, here's the good, the bad and the
24:16
ugly. What can you guarantee?
24:18
Of course I can't guarantee you. I what, what do you think the
24:20
odds are? This is, you know, this isn't a
24:22
horse race. I can tell you the best.
24:24
I could tell you, I think we got a significant chance to win.
24:27
And if we win, obviously those to take the biggest risks, get
24:29
the biggest rewards. And if we lose, you're passing
24:32
up this. It's all about being informed.
24:35
Here's the best deal on the table in the federal system.
24:38
You can't really, unless you get like an 11 C 1C, you can't
24:42
guarantee that's where the judge is going to land.
24:44
The judge can go anywhere for the most part within the
24:47
statutory range. And if you lose, here's what
24:51
you're looking at. And as long as they have all the
24:53
information to make an informed consent, that's really all you
24:57
can do as a lawyer. But you know, the, the emotions
25:05
that one goes through with their family and that, you know, all
25:10
the things that they're being considered.
25:11
If I lose, I'm going to be away from my family for this long or
25:14
it's jail. Like, you know, a lot of these,
25:16
a lot of times you're only, the only time your, your freedom has
25:20
been restricted is, you know, when you had to stay home to
25:23
take care of the kids, right? They don't know about restricted
25:25
freedom. So it's, it's a lot to swallow,
25:29
but they have, you know, it's, it's got to be the individual's
25:32
choice once they have all the information.
25:35
Yeah, and I guess that's the that's the point is once they
25:37
have all the information and and I mean, I think it would be
25:41
tough for me as an attorney if I knew somebody was really passing
25:49
it up. I mean, it would be hard for me
25:51
not to get emotionally involved. And I know in your position, you
25:54
can't really get emotionally involved with it needs to be
25:59
black and white. This is this is this is your
26:03
good stuff. This is the stuff they're going
26:04
to come at you with. We're going to talk about your,
26:07
you know, if we're talking about white collar, we're going to
26:09
talk about the money you made, the houses you have and all the
26:11
other stuff on that. That's going to be built up into
26:14
a big deal. We might be able to get past all
26:16
that. And then, you know, and here, if
26:19
we lose, this is this is what you're looking at.
26:21
They're they're they're taking this charge, this charge, this
26:23
charge. There's jet stack in it, you
26:25
know. I'm real black and white and
26:26
this and in these decisions, all Gray.
26:28
It is Gray. It's just all Gray and you got
26:31
to have the, I guess the courage, for lack of a better
26:35
word, of fortitude to go through it and take your best shot.
26:39
And a lot of people, I, I, I represented have some have lost
26:43
a lot of one. But I, I can't name anyone
26:47
that's gone through the trial and been, has been unhappy.
26:50
They may be unhappy with the results.
26:52
They didn't want to be convicted, but they're not
26:54
unhappy that they went through the trial.
26:57
Well, I mean, some people say that the, you know, because
27:01
it's, it's kind of known that first of all, the federal
27:04
government doesn't go to trial very often.
27:05
They don't necessarily like to go to trial.
27:08
And many people who go to trial feel like they got a penalty for
27:13
going to trial if they lose. You feel like that's true.
27:16
Yes, and it's well, there's a penalty baked in to the
27:21
guidelines. You get 3 points, you don't get
27:24
your 3 points for acceptance of responsibilities.
27:27
If, if that person testifies, there's another penalty baked
27:30
into the guidelines, another two points.
27:33
So that's a 5 point swing. And depending on where you're
27:35
at, that could be up to six, 7-8 years.
27:38
And then of course the under the statute 1835513553, they can,
27:51
the judge can look at it and give more time, I mean
27:56
theoretically less time. Right, right.
28:00
Well, I want to take a break here because when I get back, I
28:02
want to talk to you a little bit of just about the criminal.
28:04
It's, it's a big topic now, the whole criminal justice system
28:08
and, and what's works, what's broken.
28:13
I want, I want your, I want to get your opinions on that.
28:16
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Success. Nightmare Success Podcast is
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support group devoted to people navigating the white collar
28:55
criminal justice system. I'm a member of the White Collar
28:57
Support Group, and I tell you, there's a bunch of people who
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help each other through the criminal justice journey for
29:01
free. Whether you're just starting
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your journey or you've made it through the other side, this is
29:05
great space for you. You can join us on Zoom Monday,
29:07
7:00 PM Eastern Time. And we've got the White Collar
29:10
Conference. It's coming up October 11th.
29:14
We got keynote speakers of Joe Bankman, who is the father of
29:19
Sam Bankman Freed, and we've got Jeffrey Toobin who's written the
29:24
book The Pardon. So if you want to check that
29:25
out, go to prisons.org. OK, Scott, we're back.
29:33
So, you know, you just turn you turn on the news anytime, any
29:39
time of the day on any of the channels and they're talking
29:42
about they're talking about law affair.
29:44
They're talking about, you know, the criminal justice system and
29:47
it's broken or the BOP. And then and there's some
29:50
incredible things that are going on that's never happened before.
29:53
Like Josh Smith, he was the deputy director of the BOP.
29:57
He was an ex felon from the BOP. So it's the first time that's
30:02
ever happened. So there are things that are
30:04
happening. But I wanted to ask, she's got
30:10
like being around it for so long.
30:14
I know that you have opinions on some things that work and don't
30:18
work and but if you were given a day in a magic wand to say I'd
30:23
like to fix the things that I don't like and it would make it
30:27
better, what would that be? What would I fix?
30:34
Well, there's a long list I'm on.
30:36
We have. We got a long time if you want,
30:38
take it. I would, I would start with the
30:47
tower. I spent talking about the feds.
30:51
Now at a certain extent in the state, the most power power
30:55
there is in the justice system is the power to choose who
31:02
you're going to prosecute, how you're going to prosecute them,
31:06
where you're going to prosecute them.
31:07
Because there's a lot of inequities in the state system
31:11
where you're going to prosecute can mean the difference between
31:13
seeking a death penalty or not. Certainly because of a different
31:19
borderline of different border, different state.
31:22
In the federal system, there's a certain randomness that is I
31:31
find unsettling. And you know, I've been close
31:34
friends with a lot of the US attorneys, the actual US
31:36
attorneys and the decision makers as to who to prosecute
31:40
and who not. What case is significant enough?
31:42
What case isn't significant enough and how comes the one's
31:46
attention or not has a randomness that I'm not thrilled
31:50
about. For instance, you know, I don't
31:52
think you ought to be reading a newspaper to pick out if you're
31:54
going to prosecute it. That doesn't right.
31:58
I think it should start like all criminal cases with a victim
32:03
somewhere, somehow, whether it's a white collar victim or a
32:07
victim of of some sort of violence or something.
32:12
It doesn't always work that way. So I would I would figure out a
32:16
different way of charging people.
32:18
The grand jury is a joke. I mean, obviously anyone that
32:22
thinks the grand jury has any semblance of protection is
32:26
often. Scott, don't you think a lot of
32:28
people are confused about what a grand jury is?
32:30
Because most of the time you think of a regular jury that the
32:34
both the both the defense attorney and the prosecuting
32:37
attorney are in there and they're presenting their case
32:40
and it's not it. They're the prosecutors
32:43
presenting a case to a jury, and they decide, well, that sounds
32:46
pretty bad. And that's why the whole thing
32:49
of, you know, you can, you know, dyed a ham sandwich.
32:51
You're presenting a side of your story, and that's the story they
32:55
hear. So a grand jury is simply
32:57
between simply comprised of 16 to 23 people.
33:00
Of those of those people, 12 people have to vote for a true
33:04
bill. It's a very low standard.
33:05
It's just more likely than not that a crime has been committed
33:07
and the person that they're looking at committed the crime.
33:10
There's no defense lawyer, there's no judge.
33:11
There's just a prosecutor typically just offering law
33:15
enforcement of some sort to outline a narrative.
33:17
So it really offers, in my view, almost zero protection.
33:22
It's supposed to offer protection, but it's never used
33:25
that way. It's used more often than not as
33:27
a tool. There's there has been some
33:31
cases where the grand jury has decided not to true bill, but
33:34
those are rare. Often times the grand jury is
33:36
used as a sort of a protection for the prosecutor when they
33:41
want a reason not to charge and they can blame it on the grand
33:45
jury. If it's a grand jury, 99% of the
33:47
time it's going to do whatever the prosecutor wants.
33:49
So you are the US attorney. So in a pet jury is obviously
33:52
the juries that we're familiar with in criminal cases comprised
33:57
of 12 people. And it has to be news.
34:00
And it's, you know, they, you go through the process, whatever
34:03
evidence is approved, you go in, they view it, witnesses are
34:06
subjected to cross examination. There's arguments and they have
34:11
to prove the case behind a reasonable belt.
34:13
Government does. Grand juries don't offer much
34:17
protection. So if you were going to fix the
34:20
grand jury, would you just allow the Scott Rosenblum in the room?
34:24
Well, that throws into my first point.
34:25
There has to be more accountability for who's being
34:28
how you're making charging decisions.
34:30
Right. I mean, that's a big problem
34:32
because there's a lot of people that get swept out the channel
34:35
business being in that situation.
34:37
And and as you know, goes back to our some of our original
34:41
points once the finger of accusation lands on you,
34:45
especially when you've never been in the system, I mean,
34:48
that's frightening. No, it's unbelievable.
34:50
And it frightens everybody around you, too.
34:53
You know, the people can get freaked out that that person's
34:57
got a feather that landed on his head.
35:00
And all the people that are around or surrounding you get
35:03
freaked out because. Yeah.
35:07
And the and that's the end up point.
35:13
There's a, the, there's, there's, I have met US
35:17
attorneys, the actual, some actual US attorneys and some
35:20
lying prosecutors that have some recognition of that or some
35:25
feeling about that. But more often than that,
35:28
there's, and maybe they shouldn't, I don't know, but
35:30
there's 0 empathy for your client.
35:32
They did something wrong. My job is to prosecute them.
35:36
If they're suffering collateral damage, if they're going, you
35:39
know, not be with their kids or their wife or their business,
35:41
they should have thought about that.
35:43
It's just very, very black and white, binary, black, white.
35:48
They did something wrong, like a robot.
35:50
I got to prosecute them. But they're human beings and
35:53
everybody's not the same and everybody doesn't fit into a
35:56
box. There's not enough of that.
36:01
That area, those boxes that you can really maneuver in the
36:04
federal system more now than ever, to a certain extent,
36:08
depending on the mandatory minimum sentences.
36:10
But it's, you know, I don't think there's much understanding
36:15
from the prosecution side. You want to be understanding
36:20
from the victim side. I do.
36:22
I mean, when I hear my clients side, you know, when I'm going
36:26
through what the process is going to be like, I always make
36:29
sure they understand that you're going to hear it from some
36:33
victims and it's going to be pretty.
36:35
There's going to be a lot of anguish.
36:38
And oftentimes in the white collar cases, the victims
36:44
allocution can be a lot more painful than even in violent
36:48
cases. I mean, when you hear, you know,
36:51
cases hypothetically were not hypothetically were potentially,
36:55
like the money manager has stolen money from some of their
37:00
longtime clients, especially elderly people.
37:03
And they're up there telling the judge that I trusted every dime
37:06
I had with this individual. He's been to my house.
37:09
He's been to my party. He's taking care of my kids.
37:12
He's taking care of the college planes for my kids.
37:15
And then I woke up one day and I realized I had zero.
37:18
And now I have to work as a greeter of Walmart.
37:21
And, you know, they're basically think their life is over.
37:24
That's tough to hear. Yeah, very tough.
37:27
And and there's and a lot of these cases, there's real
37:30
victims. And but I, I, I agree with you
37:33
on obviously being a defendant. You, you feel like you're,
37:38
you're not a person that's seen as a real live human being on
37:42
the other side. And, and for some people like,
37:45
you know, for me that with my case, I never even spoke to the
37:48
other side, never had a conversation.
37:50
So it was just this, you know, punching in the dark, you know,
37:54
it was never sitting down and, and, and even getting a feel for
37:58
what these people were like because I, I.
38:00
You know, a lot of people that go through that feel especially
38:05
educated, smart people, especially people that have been
38:11
persuasive most of their lives, feel like only if I had the
38:14
opportunity to sit down and explain my side, right?
38:17
Well, it just doesn't work that way because if you do that,
38:22
everything you explain, you're going to wind up in a three O 2
38:25
or police report be used against you.
38:28
Let's talk about 3 O twos because I don't know if it's
38:32
changed since my time, but three O twos are things that an
38:40
investigator, an FBI agent will interview a person and that
38:45
becomes part of their investigation and evidence and
38:49
whatever else that goes on with that, that conversation that
38:53
this person has. What I find fascinating about 3
38:56
O twos is they're not recorded and, and, and there can be, you
39:02
know, a charge against you if you've taken a three O 2 And,
39:07
and in your person in in this case, A3O2 can actually turn out
39:12
that you've misrepresented or stated the facts or whatever
39:15
they say that you've said in this three O 2 that you've lied
39:18
to a government official. I can't figure out for the life
39:22
of me, Scott, why that rule can't be changed.
39:25
Just if I'm going to have a conversation with you, God knows
39:29
there's plenty of recording devices to be had. 18 United
39:32
States Code 1001 violation for lying to a government official.
39:36
That should be changed. It's very frustrating.
39:38
So they don't record it and you know, but that's defense.
39:43
That's why the feds have this reputation because through the
39:46
years it's stacked up to really make it difficult.
39:51
When you talk about the three O twos, you can't they're witness
39:56
statements now typically in a criminal case that this all the
40:00
discoveries turned over to you, right?
40:02
Say in a homicide case, every witness statement that's you're
40:05
supposed to have, it's recording.
40:07
You can transcribe it, you have it from the beginning.
40:09
Whatever the first batch of discovery is in the federal
40:12
system, most 3O2's are protected by the Jenks Act 18, United
40:17
States Film 3500 and the the absolute literal meaning of
40:22
that. Law says because says that
40:28
you're not the lawyer is not entitled to the statements, the
40:32
memorialized statements of the witness until after direct and
40:37
right before cross. Now it has expanded typically to
40:42
a local rule that we get at three days before trial and
40:44
sometimes stacks this day. Oh.
40:46
For sure. And then you can make a motion
40:48
for early production of Yanks, but you're still not getting it
40:51
much in advance. And the reason that rule came
40:54
into effect was I think the case in the 60s where the government
41:00
lost, so they legislated a new rule.
41:04
So, you know, that's, that's why the feds have this reputation
41:07
every and then, you know, all the, the a lot of the laws were
41:13
designed and they just go for a criminal defendant.
41:15
The federal system 4 O 4B on it. Typically if you have a prior
41:19
conviction, it's not coming into evidence unless you take the
41:23
witness to the federal system. They can introduce it as
41:26
evidence. It could have some some
41:29
relevance to the case. It's tough.
41:34
So do you think we've talked about a couple of different
41:39
things here? What do you think's the biggest
41:41
thing that if it could be changed, it would it could
41:45
balance it a little bit better because I mean, you're up
41:50
against it all the time. I mean it you you're one of the
41:54
one of my guests said, you know, you can, you can play against
41:58
and go to court trial with with the feds.
42:01
But it's like your beer softball league team going against to
42:05
play the LA Dodgers. It also depends, you know, if
42:08
you've got a. Yeah, it's, I would just focus
42:10
on levelling the play. If you you're getting rid of the
42:14
jet's material that doesn't come over until three days before
42:17
trial, right before why? What's the purpose of?
42:20
Yeah. Why is that?
42:21
There is no, I, I haven't heard a good explanation other than
42:24
that's what the law is. Well, I mean, the government's
42:27
entitled to it. They're looking at all this
42:28
stuff. I mean, why is there a race
42:30
against time when we get it? Why, you know, have a a grand
42:34
jury system with more T have somebody, maybe some oversee
42:39
where who decides who's going to be charged or not, because it's
42:43
all subjective. They're all human beings making,
42:47
you know, it's just like. I like that, Scott, have
42:51
somebody that's a mediator almost that it's it's, it's
42:57
presented in the office and that person says there's some kind of
43:02
standard. Yeah, but it can't be distorted.
43:05
So it would have to be sort of a higher level supervision, maybe
43:08
like a maybe, you know, panel of three or four other ex US
43:13
attorneys maybe aside to the political aisle.
43:17
But let's take a look at this. Why are we now some obviously,
43:20
you know, obviously if somebody's blowing up buildings,
43:22
that's a no brainer or some obvious acts of terrorism, these
43:26
acts of violence or some of those situations.
43:30
But when it's when these cases are going to turn on one man's
43:37
decision, maybe it should be reviewed by others.
43:41
Yeah, I like that. I'm wondering like with you, you
43:45
know, with, because you get involved in some of these, you
43:48
know, these big cases they have, you know, gigantic outcomes,
43:54
good or bad, when it's almost like when you play a big game
44:00
sports wise, I'm sure a win stays with you for a little
44:05
while. What does a loss do?
44:08
You don't want to be around me when I lose such tough so you
44:14
pour look if you approach trials like I always have pour
44:18
everything you have into the case and you're getting up at
44:21
3:30 in the morning and he let the facts aren't great.
44:24
By the time I'm giving a closing argument, I have 100% convinced
44:27
myself that a good outcome and you know, you're on this
44:33
adrenaline and when the, when the case is over, there's the
44:39
adrenaline leaves and that result, hopefully it's good
44:43
stays with you. But you know, sort of like even
44:46
when I win, when the adrenaline leaves, it's not as great as it
44:52
should be, if that makes sense. Yeah.
44:55
It's like goes away and you know, the only thing is, and
44:59
this is, this is just human nature.
45:03
Everybody likes to say they're all about justice.
45:06
Well, I mean, that's bullshit. That's just bullshit.
45:08
The only, the only justice you may get is if you have a very
45:12
fair judge, because every prosecutor is not about justice.
45:18
They are trying the case to win. They celebrate their victories.
45:22
They celebrate. They come back to the office and
45:24
say we just got this amount of time.
45:26
We got more time than we asked for.
45:28
We got everything we wanted. That's an individual win.
45:33
And same with the fence. A lot of times the defense
45:37
lawyers are judge, you know, they judge just by the result
45:41
that we win or did we lose? I don't know.
45:43
When you really think about it and when you think about the way
45:47
our system was initially set up, it shouldn't be about wins and
45:50
losses. It should be a search for the
45:52
truth. And if you everybody does a good
45:55
job. Look, I've never second guessed
45:57
a jury I may have in my brain. I'll never grow because I
46:01
believe in the jury system. And I believe that's, you know.
46:05
And I think that is and you want justice, you want truth, but you
46:12
know, there's so much that happens before it somebody even
46:14
steps into that courtroom. You've got a talking indictment
46:19
that the that they freely will go out and and the media will
46:23
eat that up and and that becomes something that is fed throughout
46:27
either the community or the nation.
46:29
And then you're going to pull in a jury that, you know, if
46:32
they've been watching and listening and whatever, they're
46:34
going to have an opinion on that, whether they say they,
46:36
they or they don't. And then you walk into a
46:39
courtroom and it's it's innocent until proven guilty.
46:44
Except for the fact most people will assume that if that person
46:49
got indicted, they must have done something.
46:52
Well, yeah, I've spent a lot of time on Jury Flash and asking
46:55
about all those questions. And it's funny, you know, I, I
47:00
think jury selection is the most important, one of, if not the
47:03
most important part of the case because that's your opportunity
47:06
to sort of change how people use things.
47:11
You know, when I especially on a case, as I mean, I'll give you
47:19
an example, when you show up in court and the judge says, ladies
47:23
and gentlemen, you've been called for a criminal case.
47:26
The state has alleged Mr. Smith over there has been is accused
47:30
of 6 lbs of statutory rape and statutory sodomy.
47:35
I mean, at that point, if there's 50 perspectives, I have
47:38
100 eyes staring at me. I mean, they're going to put
47:40
somebody away. It's either going to be him or
47:42
me. So, so stand up.
47:45
I started immediately trying to switch the narrative and I'll
47:49
I'll just address things straight on.
47:50
I'll say look, I looked at y'all's eyes.
47:52
I know that y'all stared at me and stared at my client and had
47:56
all these different thoughts. Would you agree with me that
47:58
yeah, it's awful. I think this is an awful crime.
48:04
We can all agree with statutory sodomy.
48:05
Statutory rape is just an awful crime.
48:07
We also agree that's equally awful to be charged with such
48:11
crimes and be innocent. And then you start getting
48:14
people in the conversation. Have you known people that have
48:16
gone through it? They still have to deal with the
48:18
stigma, but this is their only point or their only chance to
48:22
exonerate their name of these awful charges.
48:25
And you know, you start hammering that.
48:28
I, I think that's such a great point because I think it's
48:31
something that's so overlooked is, is that jury selection?
48:35
It's usually like it's hurried that somebody's, you know, we
48:37
got to get this going so we can get the trial going.
48:39
But that. That's another point of
48:41
contention that I have when judges want to, you know, chop,
48:47
chop, chop and hurry, where are they going?
48:50
I mean, if they're not doing that, what are they doing?
48:51
They, they hate to be a judge. Why do we have to hurt?
48:56
Why do you I got the only you're only going to get 15 minutes for
48:58
jury selection. You're only going to get 20
49:00
minutes for this, or 45 minutes. Why is that?
49:04
Where's the fire? What?
49:05
What? And especially in the federal
49:07
system, there's not that many that go to trial.
49:08
So let's enjoy this. Let's get let's get the whole
49:10
full meal deal here. Full hearing, I mean, why is
49:14
everybody rushing? I mean, I got a guy sitting here
49:16
whose life is on the line An extra 5 minutes we're going to
49:20
is going to be the worst thing that ever had could come on.
49:23
I would actually good point. So to go, I've gone to judges in
49:28
the federal system because they like to give you time on it.
49:30
So I said, look, let me negotiate with you.
49:34
You said 1/2 hour for jury selection.
49:37
Give me 45 minutes to take 15 minutes away in my opening
49:40
statement. And you know, sometimes I can
49:43
get that done and then they forget about it and I do the
49:46
opening way I want to anyway. But I've been known to negotiate
49:49
time. Does it, does it feel you know?
49:54
Because Scott, you're at the point now you don't have to do
49:56
any more trials. You're doing it because you like
49:58
to do it. You still like the passion, the
49:59
competitive juice that you. Get I don't have any hobbies, I
50:02
still love it. Yeah.
50:04
What? So, yeah.
50:07
Do you golf? No.
50:09
OK, all right, well, that's that would be something that would
50:12
take up time. And I know you've got you've got
50:15
the you've got 4 kids and and you've got a place down in
50:19
Florida and and you know, time is valuable, especially when you
50:23
get to a certain age. I mean, that's what I feel is
50:27
that, but where you are now, it's it's got to be because you
50:35
were, you were, you were naming off people, known people in, in,
50:40
in the business that you looked up to.
50:42
Do you have guys calling you saying, hey, if I could just
50:47
talk to Scott Rosenblue, maybe I could figure?
50:50
All the time. I always give you time.
50:52
I have. We'll call on at least once a
50:53
week. Can you give me, can you help me
50:55
with your research? Can you help me with this?
50:56
What's what's your thought on this?
50:58
On this theory of Yeah. Well, you're at that point.
51:02
And how, how far do you think you're going to go?
51:04
I mean, you're what, 68 now? I'm 10 years older than you.
51:08
Yeah, you're 10 years older than me.
51:10
So much more handsome than me. That's annoying.
51:12
Well, I one of the things that they said was from the office.
51:15
When I was in the office they said make sure you ask Scott
51:18
what it's like to always be the best looking guy in the room.
51:21
I'm not anymore. How long are we going to go?
51:32
My bad answer was I was going to try cases until somebody can try
51:35
and better, but that sounds too egotistical.
51:40
I would say maybe look one of my heroes.
51:44
I didn't have a lot of guys that I would actually watch.
51:49
I certainly think lawyers need to develop their own style.
51:52
They can't copy off, but he comes off so operate.
51:55
But one of my close friends before he died was Charlie Shaw.
51:59
And in fairness, legend, you had a great trial work.
52:05
He was trying cases in the days, but they didn't have as much
52:08
discovery. So, I mean, he had, you know, he
52:11
had his knack, but he was, he tried cases until he was well
52:17
into his 80s. And I was watching one of his
52:20
last cases and there was a group of public defenders sitting
52:23
behind me and they were sort of ridiculing him, like they came
52:26
to watch Charlie Shaw and they were just saying this can't be.
52:30
Yeah, it's kind of like an old boxer.
52:32
Yeah, and I want this. This guy's forgotten more than
52:35
you guys will ever know. So I you don't want to be like
52:38
the last days of Charlie Shaw. I got that one done on that
52:41
side. And I rely on people around me.
52:44
Honestly, just watch me try a lot of cases, like, you know,
52:48
all the lawyers in my office. And that's your niece, right?
52:51
Yeah, Ally. Ally, to say, you know, you're
52:57
not as good as you used to be, and that will never sit well
53:00
with me if I'm not used to be. I gotta quit.
53:04
I mean, I may hang out and be like a some sort of Master Yoda
53:07
and give advice. Yeah, Yeah.
53:09
You know, I only watched me try a case for the first time when
53:11
she was here. And she came up to me afterwards
53:15
and she said, God, now I finally know what all the hoopla was
53:17
about. I said, what do you think?
53:19
I was just so schmucked. I mean, come on, you think I've
53:25
been for two years, for 43 years on the wing and a prayer.
53:29
There has to be some substance, right?
53:31
I. Love that.
53:34
Oh, now I see it. Now I see it.
53:37
And she's, like, amazed. They said, OK, we'll see there's
53:40
some substance. But, you know, being just being,
53:43
you know, rumbling around the office.
53:46
I can, I can rally you get in court still.
53:48
Yeah, no. And I like that.
53:49
I mean, that's a that's a good mindset to have too.
53:51
I'm going to do it as long as I feel like I'm as good as I am,
53:55
and if I'm not, then I don't want to go in and do that.
53:58
That's. Right.
53:59
I take my, I take my job, my role very seriously and people
54:05
are relying on me and relying on me to put out my best
54:09
performance, my best effort, my best work every time their
54:13
life's on the line. That goes back to people being
54:16
jaded. I mean, you can never be
54:18
treated. Somebody trusts you with their
54:19
life. I mean the the a.
54:22
Huge deal. And and if and the other thing
54:24
Scott too, is, is that if no one's ever been in that
54:27
situation, it's hard to explain, you know, when you have your
54:34
basically the life in somebody else's hands and they're
54:37
speaking for you in a courtroom. That's that's heavy stuff on
54:41
both sides. Yeah, yeah, it, it is.
54:47
But I never take it lightly. And I I try and never be jaded.
54:50
You know, when I hear other lawyers talking about
54:53
themselves, mostly lawyers, I don't, I don't necessarily
54:56
respect too much. And they talk about science is
55:00
just a means to an end or how much they hate, hate what
55:04
they're doing. You know, that really aggravates
55:08
me. And I actually, I've gone up to
55:09
a couple. I said, look, if if you truly
55:11
hate what you're doing, then you need to leave.
55:14
So these people are relying on somebody to be, to be the best
55:18
they can be. And if you just absolutely
55:20
despise what you're doing, you're not going to be that
55:22
person. Right, so true.
55:25
Well, you know, I always ask people at the end of the show
55:29
what their greatest take away is to the nightmare that they went
55:32
through. But in in this situation, Scott,
55:36
I guess the better question is what's your greatest take away
55:39
through your journey that you've been on and this, you know,
55:43
you've created a legacy. What was?
55:47
What would be the take away for the listeners?
55:51
Never to give short shrift about the upset that I've had on human
55:58
lives and people that have come to me, because it can be
56:01
profound. Hopefully most of the time in a
56:03
favorable way, but even if it doesn't work out in a negative
56:07
way and it's life changing and it's, it's no different to me
56:11
than a surgeon that can remove cancer.
56:15
I mean, people come to me, it's like they have cancer.
56:17
Can you help me diagnose it, cut it out?
56:21
I'll do the best I can. But you know, it's you can't
56:26
ever forget why these clients, these human beings and their
56:31
family are sitting across from you and trusting you with their
56:36
life to give them back their life.
56:38
And you know, it's all the way from if you I've tried seven
56:43
death penalty cases. I don't think I'll ever try
56:45
another one again. It's too much.
56:47
And fortunately there's not many around.
56:48
But but even over 100 murder cases, if you lose, they can
56:53
they go away forever. They die, they pet attention or
56:56
not guilty, they walk out with That's a big point.
56:59
But all the way down to, you know, a white collar case where
57:05
the government saying, OK, just give them a year and a day.
57:08
He's going to serve 10 months. Great.
57:11
Except let's talk about the parade of horribles that come
57:14
with that. He is now going from Joe Smith's
57:18
respected businessman, respected in his community, respected in
57:21
charities, respected like this, to now pariah Joe Smith as a
57:25
convicted felon and everything. That moniker.
57:28
He will never be Joe Smith without being a convicted felon.
57:32
Yeah. And I never tried to lose sight
57:34
of that. That's such a good point because
57:37
you know, it's, it's, it's one of those things, Scott, as you
57:40
know, there's so many barriers to people when they get out for
57:44
re entry And and there's just a lot of laws.
57:49
There's 44,000 laws on the books that are make it legal, you
57:52
know, to discriminate against, you know, ex felons.
57:54
But the, it's not impossible. It's just something that you're
58:01
going to wear around your neck the rest of your life.
58:03
And that's it's, it's so good to hear from your side.
58:07
Is it? You don't, you don't take any of
58:09
that for granted because it's such a big deal.
58:11
It's yeah, a year and a day. The guy got a year and a day,
58:14
but everything around him changed.
58:16
Everything. Yeah.
58:18
Even to the point, you know, to try to get a, a loan, you know,
58:21
go to the bank, home, all the little things, right?
58:25
All the little things. His life as he once knew it, or
58:28
her life that she wants to do, it will never be the same.
58:31
It's so true. It's such a good take away, man.
58:34
I, I have enjoyed this interview.
58:38
It's I think we covered a lot of ground here.
58:41
It's good stuff. I want to give a shout out to
58:44
Homestead financial list. We use this podcast room, all
58:47
the fancy lights and cameras. And if you got home mortgage
58:50
needs out there, Greg Gaffney of is your guy.
58:52
He knows all that stuff. And if you, if you want to check
58:57
out a book, I've got one. It's called I'm Your Success,
59:01
Loyalty, betrayal, life behind bars, adapting, finally Breaking
59:04
Free. And if you want to know what I'm
59:05
doing, go to brickcassidy.com. I spell it wrong.
59:08
I spell it with ATY, not ADY, as I used to say to my people when
59:12
I was writing my emails back and forth from Leavenworth.
59:15
Stay strong. I'll do the same.
59:16
Scott Rosenblum, man, keep doing what you're doing.
59:20
Keep doing what you're doing, man.
59:21
It's good stuff. All right to say hello.