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Margaret Andrews: Managing with Intention- A Bold Approach to Leadership · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have Margaret C.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Andrews.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Margaret is a seasoned executive, academic leader, speaker, and instructor.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: She has created and teaches a variety of leadership courses in professional and executive programs at Harvard University.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: She is also the founder of the Milo Center, a private leadership development firm.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Her clients include Amazon, City, Continental, Walmart, Wayfair, and the United Nations.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice to be here.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So let's jump in.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now we were talking a little bit in the green room about being bold and different things that, you know, as even as authors that I'm sure we've done over the last year or two, uh being bold.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what would be your definition of bold?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: My definition of bold probably equates to the word courageous.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And has an element of just taking things into your own hands.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just, you know, sometimes it's a leap of faith or it's going against the grain or, you know, whatever it is.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it's something that you just kind of you do it.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're owning it.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Taking agency.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to wait for someone else to come up with a solution, type of a world.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about your life and all the different bold moments that you've had, is there any one that stands out that aligns with just taking the reins, doing it, getting it done, owning it?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, there actually, I think for many of us, there's probably lots of bold moments.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought back to like, when's the first time I can remember being bold?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I hope there's no young kids listening because I'm not advocating this.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember I grew up and I was a swimmer, right?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so we would go to workouts and things like that.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I don't know how old I was, six, something like that.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I just decided I just don't want to go to workout.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, you know, what could I do?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: What could I do?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I hid my bathing suit, right?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I told my mom, I'm like, I can't wear my bathing suit.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I can't go swimming.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And she, of course, knew that I probably uh did that.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the first time I can remember thinking, you know, I don't want to do something.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do to make that happen?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So as I say, I'm not advocating that, but it worked.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: It worked.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that was an example of not wanting to do something.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also examples of wanting to do something, right?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And taking agency.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So do you think you had that kind of spirit throughout your youth and into high school and into college of like, let's just go for it.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's, I'm going to own it.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to set the goal and move towards it.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh oftentimes it wasn't sometimes it was a goal that I want this, I want to get into that school or whatever.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I would always tell people, you know, I've had people say, gee, I don't want to apply to that school because I'll never get in.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, who are you to say?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I said, you know, I've I've done stuff on the other side and you have no idea why you get in or you don't get in.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you're never going to get something if you don't, if you don't go for it.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and I would say that the vast majority of, you know, really great things that have happened in my life have happened because of a certain level of boldness, a certain level of luck, I'm going to say.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one that comes to mind is that uh when I was earlier in my career, I was working, you know, in financial services and I got a call from MIT and they were redoing their curriculum.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, Hey, you're alum, would you would you come in and help us with this?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, sure.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we met at 7:30 in the morning once a week to kind of go through all of this.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And after one of those meetings, I just stopped by somebody's office that I because I had been a grad student there.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I stopped by his office and just to check in and say hello.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we chatted for a while.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, So what can I do for you?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, nothing.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was just coming by to say hello.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Oh, I thought you were coming here about the job.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, what job?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Oh, you know, we're hiring a new executive director for the MBA program, admissions, student affairs, and career development, et cetera.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And as he's talking, I'm sure my eyes widened and my jaw dropped.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Oh, that's what I'm here for.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So he said, Well, you better hurry.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they've hired an executive search firm and they're interviewing 10 candidates next week.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I just wrote to everybody that I could think of that could help me walk on to that list.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I walked on as number 11 and I got it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it was not what they were looking for, right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy how that happens, right?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: You weren't really looking for them and they weren't really looking for you.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I had an experience like that out of my first master's, I got a great job, was working with the CEO of the health system, and then unfortunately, she got riffed within my first six months of like finishing my degree, getting the first real, you know, real job.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh had a one-year-old, you know, pretty young.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was 27.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, a lot riding on having a job, but she got riffed, and I was just like, I couldn't believe it.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know like this could happen, right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, you realize it, it's a good thing once it happens, but I think in the sense of that, it was like not what I was planning, but what I ended up doing was getting a job in a K through 12 environment that I thought they would never hire me.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: They were looking for someone with an MED and I had an MHSA, and you know, my mom kept nagging me to go to the interview, and so I did, and I ended up getting a job and I loved it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was so surprising that they picked me, but they picked me because I had a different set of eyes, I had a different vantage point, right?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think that's the thing, is if it's something, if your heart is pulling you in that direction, that's where you should go, or your curiosity, right?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I always think there's there's something inside of us that call it intuition, whatever you want to call it, that leads you there, right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's something telling you it maybe, and you can't even explain it to somebody.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: It may seem like the craziest idea, you know?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you're just like, why does this keep coming back to me, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe something's percolated.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I know so for me, like even just thinking about, and we have been talking about like I'm starting the sixth year of our business, things have percolated up and down and up and down in the sense of, oh, I wonder if I wondered to try that.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: But there are a few things that keep coming back to me.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I really need to like try this or go find out more because it's not going away.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a bad thing.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, okay, I like I think I need to solve that or figure it out.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or at least explore it, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes it's when you explore it, you find something adjacent that is actually right.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I always say if you don't open that door, you don't know what's on the other side.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you go, if you open it up, you can go through, you can go back, right?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't get to those other doors unless you go through that first one.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times that's just opening the door.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's trying, that's submitting the application.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's going for the interview, right?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, those kinds of things.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about your book, so manage yourself to lead others, why great leadership begins with self-understanding.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why this book?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why now?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a backstory to the book, which there probably is for most of them.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I was doing very well in my career and promotions and things like that.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I was working in one place and my boss left, and I had a new boss come in.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we just, I don't know, just weren't gelling.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we just I felt like we just weren't communicating that well.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, one day in our one-on-one, he looks at me and he just says, you know, you're just not self-aware.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it was said in not a oh, let me help you kind of thing.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was said in a way that was kind of like you're broken and cannot be fixed.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I was stunned, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, and so I'm sitting there pretty much speechless, you know, as he goes on to say.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And rightly so, yes.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're overly ambitious and you know, on and on and on.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you, I had just this very not fun cocktail of emotions, you know, anger, shame, embarrassment, uh, defensiveness, etc.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, after a while, when I kind of calm down on my own, I realized that, you know, I think he's right.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think he's right that I can be very hard-charging.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I I work extremely hard, like probably many of us.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I could be impatient.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I could have, there were some people on my team that I would say were probably anxious and maybe felt like they were underappreciated, and which was absolutely not my intent.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly my relationship with my boss was underperforming.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I realized, okay, this is a situation of my own doing.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do not like this situation, it is not my intent.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: What am I gonna do about it?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just started doing a lot of research.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I looked at famous people and people I knew.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: I looked at academic studies and management books and history, philosophy, uh, psychology, etc.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of this together kind of led me to the same place, and that is the idea that we have to understand and manage ourselves before we can even think about leading other people.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's not a new concept, right?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Know thyself is carved into the stones near the temple of Delphi, and Aristotle says things like this, etc.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we've known this for a long time, but we actually don't really do it, or we're not really taught to do it.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in truth, it's even gotten worse because you know, advertisers tell you what you should want, and influencers tell you how you should be.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I went through all the work myself.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was very helpful, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: It turned things around for me.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I created a class, like a 15-week class uh at Harvard where I, you know, papers and all that kind of stuff, and it had a wait list every time it's offered.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: What was the class called?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Class is called Managing Yourself and Leading Others.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and it was really focused in on being self-aware or for understanding yourself better, or what makes me want to sign up for that class?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, getting a wait list for a class is a big deal uh for a lot of reasons, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Interest, you know, and for me, like I would just kind of lean in and go, Co, and obviously we now have a book because of it, so that's wonderful.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: What was the hook for you think the students to want to be in that class?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think the title tells what it is, you know.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes if I am at a dinner party or something and I say I teach, oh, what's the class you teach?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, Managing yourself and leading others.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: People go, Oh.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: The self-management, self-regulation, self-awareness, put anything after the self, like we're kind of in that, we're in that zone.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the the idea is, is if you think of it almost like uh you can use the analogy of the red thread, right, that goes through everything, or the nesting dolls kind of thing.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the core of it is that who are you and how did you get to be who you are?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes kind of into your own backstory with a lot of different questions.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, one is around, you know, who and whose thinking has influenced you in your life.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's a long list of people.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's obviously parents and family and extended family and childhood friends and teachers and you know, college roommates, and I would say it's people that helped you and people that hurt you, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because they all have an influence on us.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes one person can be on both sides of that ledger.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's also books you read, maybe that changed the way you thought about it, things or classes, all of these types of things.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So right, we take things as we go, and that's how we become who we are.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, what type of situations and events in your life, and you know, lucky and unlucky accidents, uh, you know, how you personally define success in your personal life and your professional life.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, oftentimes it's different than what other people think.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Also, our core values, you know, how well do we understand our own emotions and how they play out with other people.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of going through a lot of questions like this to say, well, who am I as a leader?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, what kind of leader do I want to become?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then figuring out, okay, here's A, there's B, how do I get from A to B?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And very oftentimes it has to do with behaviors.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I need to start doing this more, stop doing this more, uh, pay attention to how people are being affected by my behaviors.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of it, and then we kind of pull it through everything else.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So once you understand yourself, you understand that you are different from other people, and that that is a good thing, not a bad thing.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it helps us realize that oh, if I'm different, that means everybody that I'm working with is different in some way.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: If we understand ourselves, it helps us understand other people.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can manage ourselves, it gives us the credibility to help to develop other people.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what it is.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: But as I say, it starts with self-understanding and self-management, and then you just thread it through everything else.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Even things about, you know, making decisions.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Part of it is if you don't understand your own values, how will you know you're actually making the right decision, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or you're trading off values.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when you apply kind of your research, your understanding of the best way to manage yourself and lead others, is it a one size fits all across generations?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I do this in the book, but I oftentimes do it, you know, more visually in a class, where I'll put up photos of 10 leaders from history and even currently, and I say, okay, besides the fact that we would call them all leaders and that they're probably all above average in intelligence, what do they have in common personally?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody is, you know, usually silent because people are like, I don't know, because they're all over the map.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, exactly, right?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: They actually have very little in common.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have extroverts and we have introverts there, people that came from money, people that didn't, people that are, you know, leading in the scientific frontier, others in business and management, etc.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know, and this list, whoever I'm I've got up there, includes, you know, people that have dealt with abuse and addiction and you know, things that none of us wish for.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the point of this is that it takes all types, right?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: That all types of people can be leaders, that they're fit for purpose, that they are in the right place at the right time, but that you bring all of yourself with you.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why I say there is no single best type of leadership that many different styles can work, and that the whole point is that who are you?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Who do you want to become in this way?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you get there?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: You do not have to be like your boss, you do not have to be like whoever is the celebrity CEO of the moment, you just have to be a good version of yourself.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: There is interesting, I think, you know, as I rose to the ranks in my career, so my 20s to 30s to 40s, I think when I got really into my late 30s, early 40s, and I was a chief by 40.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I really was pushing success to me at that point in time was title, pay, promotion, responsibility continue to make a difference, you know, at the heart of what I do and where I work in academic healthcare.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just, you know, we're we're there for the mission.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, from the what was defined as success in most environments is around, you know, continuing to move uh in your role, learn more, and advance.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, there is a point where you feel like on certain days you're mostly yourself, 80% and 20% the organization.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think earlier in my 20s, like I was a hundred percent myself, which doesn't always work, especially in your 20s when you don't know a lot, but you think everybody wants to hear what you have to say.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I was raised that you belong at every table, and if there isn't a chair, bring one, you know, like get it out of your backpack or whatever.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, in that in that sense, I think that's how I came in.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: But you acclimate.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I personally did not use the word assimilate because acclimating to your environment and understanding, you know, what is expected, what are the social norms, all those types of things.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think those are things that you learn as a leader.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I think self-awareness didn't come for me until my mid to late 30s in the sense of how I could be received by others, you know, and I'm a very straightforward person.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a very, let's solve it, let's get it done.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do the it's not my job, and I can't stand to hear this is how we've always done it.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the type of things that you know, people knew that about me probably within, you know, a couple minutes of me walking through a door.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, not everybody adored that, you know, right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And not everybody likes to take everything's on, you know, head first.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that self-awareness was, they always say it's a gift, but it truly was as a leader of like, oh, I didn't even know that someone could think that negative about something I did in such a positive way, right?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you think about leading and managing, you you know, managing yourself and then leading others, how do you define manage and how do you define leader?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think you can I have the broadest definition of leadership in the sense of like you lead yourself personally every day.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think also understanding yourself helps you then be able to understand how you are leading your own life, which then, like you just said a couple minutes ago, it moves into your professional life.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm curious about how you would define leader and then manager.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I generally define leader as somebody who leads or, you know, takes individuals andor groups of individuals toward, I'm gonna say, a better future.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that better future is perhaps self-defined and you know, uses a lot of influence uh and things like that.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't make a big deal of the difference between management and leadership because I I actually think it's a bit of a sliding scale.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, it's not, you know, this is management, this is leadership.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think of leadership is when uh there's more unknown than when you know there's not a single right answer or things are changing or changes needed.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many different debates on that, you know, that you you lead people and you manage processes or you know, these kinds of things.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I always think, uh, you know, I think we just have to do what needs to be done.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people that are middle managers end up being great leaders.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I've seen people that are the lowest ranking on a team step up and just lead incredibly.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, I'm sure we've all seen it where the person who's really in charge is not leading.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, my thought is just always kind of fit for purpose, what is needed in this moment.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of goes to what you were saying is that we we do learn to adapt to our environment.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you might deal with one employee a little differently than you do with somebody else because they're they're different people.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I also one of the things that you said, I think uh you know, about how we come across to others, and this was certainly one of the biggest lessons for me, and I think for a lot of people that are in my class is the idea that we judge ourselves by our intention.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean to be a good team member, I mean to be a good leader of this group, whatever it is.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yet other people judge us by our behaviors.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens sometimes is that you know you know, just like I I said that when my boss told me that I wasn't self aware.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I realized that, you know, my intentions were actually quite good.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: But when I could see the results of some of it, I realized that part was not part of my intention.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that was because of the way I was behaving.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so nobody really knows what your intentions are, even if you tell them, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're still going to pay attention to those behaviors.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So what is the first step to self-understanding for someone?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you walk them through your framework, where do they land first?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I go back and forth.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes I will start with what I call the three questions.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that is, you know, what kind of leader are you now?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of leader do you want to become?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And what's the difference?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: So people get a sense for it.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then I also ask these these six questions, which are much deeper.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if I do it with them in a classroom, I don't give them a lot of time.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, might give them five minutes per question.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know, this is the tip of the iceberg.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Your job is to go back and over the weekend, fill this out more, go back and relook at this a month later, even once a year, kind of thing.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell them, which is true, that my answer to the first question is six pages of single space type.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's long.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you really think about all of these things, there's a lot to it, and they show up in who we are.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the first question is, you know, is the who and whose thinking has influenced you.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: When you really start to think about it, and this comes up in all different ways that you know you can realize some.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we've all had this happen, especially if you have kids, you hear something come out of your mouth and you think, oh my gosh, that's my mom.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you think, oh, that was an influence, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that has influenced my way of thinking, my way of behaving.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one is around who and whose thinking have influenced you and shaped you in your life because it shows up in so many ways.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And as I say, it's people that helped you, people that hurt you.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And because sometimes the people that hurt you, you know, get to that fear that you and I were talking about earlier of, you know, that we're afraid that that might happen again.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that, you know, puts us in our box.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So if sometimes when we realize, hey, maybe that's that's not valid anymore.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the one I hear a lot is where people say, you know, when I was in third grade, my teacher told me I wasn't good in pick a subject.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do we all have one of those?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think we do.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so funny because people will say, My God, it took me 30 or 40 or whatever years to realize that actually that's not true.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it never was true.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so teachers, please know that your words land and they stick.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Big time, big time.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there's other people, and I've heard people say, Oh, I think it might have been Ryan Holliday.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: He said that he in I think it was high school, he wrote this essay on a Fitzgerald book.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he said the teacher told him, You're gonna be a writer one day, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he is, of course.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just thought, yeah, the she was telling him a positive.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my positive one was probably in second grade, you know, so Mrs.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Stofer.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, like the things that you remember, I mean, I'm in my early 50s of like, you know, you won't realize potentially that they've influenced you in some way, right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, this this question really starts to get at the heart of like who has influenced you and it's good or bad, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or positive or not so positive, right?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe it was positive at the time, but is no longer positive.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Does it serve you anymore?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, lots of people have dealt with some pretty nasty things in their lives, and you know, so it can be hard to go back on these.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you know, I I oftentimes tell them this lovely quote from the British writer C.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: S.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis, and he says, You can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that is absolutely what we're talking about here is you know, who am I?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: What created me?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, where do I want to go?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't mean that you have to take all that baggage with you.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's part of you, but you know, you can choose in many ways.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it doesn't have to direct you.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it doesn't have to define you anymore, right?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that first one, and you can see why that's a huge question.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: I tell people if you spend time answering this question well, it helps with all the other questions because you'll start to see the threads.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: The second one is about situations and events that shaped your life.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, these are positive and not so positive accidents sometimes.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for me, it was going to visit that guy and knocking on his door and having that conversation with him.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Lucky accident.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Turned out there was this job that had my name all over.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: You knew that exactly.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but unlucky ones, you know, car accidents, you know, getting sick, or you know, all of these kinds of things.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what situations and events, then around your definition of success and your personal life and your professional life.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then the fourth one is around your values.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: What are your values and to what extent are you living them?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And this one is actually a really hard question for people to answer a lot of times because we don't think about it.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: No one asks us that.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really self-reflect.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we think it's, oh, it's family, right?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what everybody tells you it should be, or it's this or it's that.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I have two ways into that.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, if we were to look at your calendar, what would we infer about your values, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: What crowds out what?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the example of this is that my husband and I would both say health and fitness.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: But if you looked at his calendar, it would be very clear.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: He's an ultra marathoner, we've been married for over 30 years, and during that time he works out six days a week, basically, no matter what's going on in his life.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Wakes up early, stays up late, whatever it is.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you looked at my calendar, what you would see is I get busy at work and it crowds out the workout, right?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, what that tells you is it is important to both of us, but to me, my work is a priority in that.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a good or a bad thing.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: It it is, right?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it is for me.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: The other is to think about, you know, what makes you angry?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: What when you hear about it, read about it, witness it, uh, makes you angry.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because the reason why it's making you angry is because it's probably something that is stepping on a value of yours.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's happening to you, maybe it's happening to somebody else.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: But so that's oftentimes the way into it.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's around the values.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Then about emotions, to what extent do you understand your own emotions and how they impact other people?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times people have a hard time answering that one.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think if you're not self-aware, you don't say, Oh, I'm good, you know, like I know that you know, you you wouldn't even know because you're not self-aware, you know.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how do you manage your emotions?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, fine, you know, I'm good.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, until you get that feedback of like not some good, not so much, you know.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, as as you're going through this, I also think of like answering this in my 20s and 30s versus answering my 40s and 50s, and I might need a therapist by the time I get to question five.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a bad thing.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a bad thing.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's absolutely not a bad thing.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mentor, you know, sponsor, have them all.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, if you need therapy, like that is I'm a big proponent of like talking things out.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: So some of these questions could bring some things up.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point about that question around emotions, lots of times people go, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: But the sixth question sometimes points right back to the fifth question, and that is what feedback have you received in your personal and professional life?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And very oftentimes there's a tie.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: The example I use is, you know, if you're not a good listener, you're probably not a good listener everywhere.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And also your feedback, especially when you pay attention to feedback that surprised you or feedback you disagreed with, right?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes that old adage of, you know, feedback is a gift.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, at a minimum, it's a the gift of a perspective you didn't have before.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: But very oftentimes the feedback that we get is about how we come across to others and how well we do understand and manage our emotions.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do love that this is something that is offered in grad school or undergrad, uh, in your case, grad school.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, it is something that's needed earlier and earlier.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: We were, I was just talking with an incredible author yesterday who was uh sharing financial wellness and financial investment and those types of things, which we didn't learn about a lot, at least my generation in school about.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And either in college, unless you majored in it, it wasn't something that you know no one's gonna be talking to you about a Roth IRA or those types of things.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So same thing when it comes to self-awareness and uh self-understanding, and then understanding how the things that you just talked about, your beliefs and your influences and your experiences all come together and they they come out of you, you know, in some form or shape, they're going to, you know, be able to be seen within your actions or your words or maybe even how you dressed, right?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like think of your influences on that too.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it comes down to a lot of what I would say cultural things as well, with regard to some of the things that you might see on these, you know, the answer sheets uh of people who are filling out these questions.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Has anything surprised you when you think about like all the classes you've taught and students sharing some of the things that they've answered?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Has anything like surprised you in a positive way of hearing from students?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a lot of times.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: More open to it or yeah.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, a couple of things.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that you know, very oftentimes that you know somebody will mention something very vulnerable and it just cracks open the whole class, right?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody is like, oh, it's not just me, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so then we have a different discussion.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there was a situation that one time I was leading a case discussion with this group of executives, and it was about this surgeon, a very, very good surgeon who was increasing the reputation of the hospital and uh bringing in revenue, et cetera.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the same surgeon also had really awful interpersonal skills.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: So he was bullying people and running roughshod throughout the organization.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we in that case were taking the perspective as it of his boss, a hospital administrator, and we have to figure out what do we do with this guy?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do we try to keep him, coach him, keep the benefits, but you know, sand off those edges?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or do we cut him loose because he's really a bully and is doing some terrible things?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: So the class is having this very spirited debate, and there are good arguments on both sides for what to do.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And just as we are, you know, kind of closing down the discussion, I notice this hand that is raised in the back of the room.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uh James, and he has not talked the whole two days we've been together.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, of course, I call on him, and he says, he says, I'm Dr.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Ventura, which is the name of the surgeon in the case.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it was just like a movie, right?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, everybody turned around and looked at the same time.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he realizes then what he'd said.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Oh, I'm not the real Dr.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Ventura.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Um, he said, I'm an engineer, not a surgeon.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: But he said, pretty much everything else in that case could have been written about me.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, in fact, that's why I'm here.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: He said, I was just passed over for a promotion.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Now I see why.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: He said, When I read this case and I hear this discussion, I'm horrified, right?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're talking about me.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, I see it now.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it was probably the bravest thing I've ever heard said in a classroom.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what was so interesting too was that at the break, everybody wanted to talk to him.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: He was swarmed, right?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because then it just made me realize we have a lot of Ron Venturas, right?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or people that worry that they might be Ron Ventura.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: But the why I also like it is because I kept in touch with him and you know, he got that promotion the next year, and then within the next four years had two more promotions.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, but he had to get to that bottom point, right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think sometimes I get people like that, that they're at the bottom saying, Oh, I don't like I don't even want to be here.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: They figure it out if they want to.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a choice, right?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there is a choice to, you know, you can be in a room and not be listening, but certainly it's a choice to listen and understand potentially why you are where you are, right?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the ownership of that, you know, there is ownership of, like you said, I I love the quote that you shared.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't change the beginning, but you can change the ending, in the sense of like, how do I move forward?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do I understand or learn or do something differently to get a different result?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always say, to live a different life, you're going to need to do something different, right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want something different, it's probably going to mean you're going to need to change or do something different.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: You will not get the different results doing the same thing.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So as we're closing out, when someone's kind of in this space of like readiness and openness to learn, and they're they've answered these questions, is there anything that they they measure that by, or how do they measure their success and understanding their own self-awareness, self-understanding?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so a couple things.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's no, you know, 10-point scale or anything like that because it's all relative and people are starting from different places and want to go in different ways.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things, and I talk about, you know, as we're developing a new skill or behavior, this whole idea of how we get better slowly and then quickly, that you know, when you're learning, you're trying to uplevel your skills, you know, you don't just pick up a new musical instrument and start playing, right?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: You don't start a new language and you're fluent, you know, two weeks later.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you think it would be any different when you're learning a new behavior, whether it's speaking up more or delegating more effectively, etc.?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of show how it works that in the very beginning you're terrible at it, right?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then you start looking around how is this done?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Who does it well?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: What can I learn?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Then you know, you practice and you get feedback and you get better slowly than quickly.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then you level off.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's time for a new skill or behavior.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the whole point is to really measure your progress, not towards perfection, right?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So don't measure the gap at this point of I'm learning Spanish and I, you know, I can barely conjugate a verb, right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hey, guess what?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yesterday you couldn't do that, right?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you're on your way, type of thing.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you're taking action to get better, to be better, to improve or to learn.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the step in itself.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I consider that a step of success as well, or measure of success.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for sharing and helping us get a little bit more insight into your new book, Manage Yourself to Lead Others.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: All the information to pick this up at your local bookstore or wherever you buy books is below, along with all the other information for Margaret and her work.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was great to be here.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.