Latest / Future Christian / Pastoral Health Roundtable: Kinsie Tate & Brian Davis on helping church leaders survive & thrive

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Pastoral Health Roundtable: Kinsie Tate & Brian Davis on helping church leaders survive & thrive · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire and equip you
0:36
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
0:46
Today is our 200th
0:49
episode. Congratulations to Loren
0:52
on this podcasting milestone and the vision and
0:55
faithful work it has taken to get here.
0:58
In this celebratory episode, Loren
1:01
Richmond Jr. Is facilitating
1:04
a round table discussion on clergy
1:06
Wellness with Brian Davis, Kinsie
1:09
Tate and me, Martha Tatarnic.
1:12
Brian has been leading worship in the Denver
1:15
metro area for the last 25 years
1:18
and has built relationships with dozens of churches
1:21
all over the city. Authenticity and
1:23
empathy have been hallmarks of Brian's
1:26
leadership and his intention is to use these
1:28
attributes to coach other worship leaders and
1:31
inspire greater creativity and deeper
1:34
spiritual practice in the local church.
1:37
Brian has three daughters and he and his wife
1:40
Jess live in Lakewood,
1:42
Colorado. He also serves part time as
1:45
the Worship Arts Director at New Denver
1:47
Church. Kinsie is the founder
1:50
and Executive Director of Restore
1:53
Clergy, an organization that exists to build
1:56
resiliency in clergy so that they may have
1:59
faithful and sustainable ministries.
2:02
She is a licensed professional clinical
2:04
counselor with over 15 years experience.
2:07
She was ordained in 2007
2:10
and maintains endorsement with the Christian Church
2:13
Disciples of Christ in the Pacific
2:16
Southwest Region. She maintains a private
2:19
therapy practice in Newport Beach,
2:21
California where she lives with her spouse Chris,
2:24
a United Methodist minister serving a
2:27
local congregation, their three school
2:30
aged children, and their therapy dog
2:32
Daisy. I, Martha, am
2:35
occasional host on this podcast.
2:38
I'm a published author and an Anglican
2:41
priest in a bustling urban church, St. George's
2:44
in the Niagara region of Ontario.
2:47
A reminder before we start today's special
2:50
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the
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podcast, leave a review and share Future
2:55
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platforms. Shoot us an
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email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
3:08
with comments, questions or ideas for future
3:11
episodes. We appreciate your voice
3:14
in how we faithfully discern the future of
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the church.
3:26
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond
3:29
Jr. And today I'm excited to be joined
3:32
by my co host Martha Tutarnick.
3:35
Hello.
3:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Hi. Great to Be here for the roundtable.
3:39
>> Loren: Yeah. We have a special roundtable episode. We're welcoming
3:42
with us today Kinsie Tate.
3:45
Kinsie
3:46
>> Kinsie Tate: Hello.
3:46
>> Loren: Hello. And then Brian Davis. Hello
3:49
Brian.
3:50
>> Brian Davis: Hello Loren. Hello Kinsie and Martha.
3:53
>> Loren: So this will hopefully be a good
3:56
fun but also very engaging and
3:59
uh, profitable conversation around
4:02
pastoral health. Kinsie and Brian both
4:05
work with pastors and church leaders in various
4:08
contexts. And of course Martha will also
4:11
be, uh, is a leader and works with pastors in
4:14
her own right. So she'll be joining the
4:16
roundtable as part of the panelists
4:19
here too. So let's do this. Let's take just a moment
4:22
to introduce yourselves for our listeners, beginning with
4:24
Martha, kind of who you are, what context you work in
4:27
and then follow up with the question what
4:30
pastoral health means to you in your
4:33
role.
4:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, um, regular listeners
4:38
of Future Christian will know me as
4:41
uh, sometime host of Future
4:44
Christian. And it's fun to be able to do an
4:46
episode together with Loren today.
4:49
Um, I'm also in full time ministry
4:52
leading ah, um, an
4:55
Anglican congregation in um,
4:58
a very downtown urban setting.
5:01
And I've been ordained in the Anglican Church for
5:04
20 years. So it's uh, I've got
5:07
quite a repertoire of experience
5:10
in church ministry.
5:13
I also wear a hat as a
5:16
writer. Um, so I'm sort of
5:18
often considering these
5:21
questions of clergy health
5:24
and uh, church
5:27
health, congregational health from a
5:29
variety of lenses. And I think
5:32
it's fair to say that this is a topic that just
5:35
keeps coming up as a thread in our
5:38
conversations on Future Christian.
5:41
So if I were going to
5:44
define pastoral health, I,
5:46
I think what I would land on
5:49
is just to say that
5:52
um, there needs to be
5:55
a sense for people in
5:58
ministry that they're doing what they're
6:01
called to do now. Like I,
6:05
there's a lot of aspects
6:07
to leading a congregation
6:10
there. There's a lot of different hats
6:13
that you wear, a lot of different
6:16
components of the role. In some ways that can be what
6:19
makes the job exciting and life giving
6:21
is that you don't do the same thing every day.
6:24
Um, and that there is like a lot of grunt
6:27
work that you need to do in ministry. But
6:30
at the end of the day I feel like I'm healthy in
6:33
ministry. If I can see a relationship
6:35
between most of the components of how
6:38
I'm spending the day and what
6:41
I feel I'm called to as a
6:44
Christian and particularly a
6:46
Christian in leadership. And to me that really boils
6:49
down to like, am I building
6:52
community and am uh, I
6:56
part of how people are
6:58
attending to the presence of God. You know,
7:01
like, those are kind of the two pieces that I
7:04
think Jesus really clearly calls us to. And so
7:07
I want to be healthy. I want
7:10
to feel like most of what I'm doing
7:13
is connecting to that.
7:16
Uh, job description?
7:19
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Martha Kinsie uh, introduce
7:22
yourself and answer the same question.
7:25
>> Kinsie Tate: Okay. Hi, I'm, um, Kinsie Tate. I am
7:28
an ordained Disciples of Christ clergy.
7:31
Um, but I have been practicing as a licensed
7:34
professional clinical counselor for, I don't
7:37
know, like, 15 years, something like that. Long time.
7:39
Um, and so that is kind of the
7:42
main focus that I come at this question
7:45
from. And I'm also the executive director of a
7:48
nonprofit called Restore Clergy, whose mission is to
7:51
build resilience in clergy so they can have faithful and
7:53
sustainable ministries. And so I think about
7:56
pastoral health as how do we
7:59
make it sustainable? I, um, think
8:02
there's a lot of burnout, and there's a lot of
8:05
research that shows that people burn out a lot of times within their
8:08
first five years, and then they're finding,
8:11
um, other vocations. And
8:13
so what I'm really curious about is,
8:17
why is that happening? Um, and I think
8:19
there's some good research around that. And so that's why I
8:22
developed a program to try to help
8:25
clergy understand, um, what's going on
8:28
in me that's maybe making this harder. Um, and
8:31
so I think about pastoral health really from a personal
8:34
perspective. Um, and I do
8:38
recognize that it is not just an
8:40
individual problem. It is
8:43
definitely a systemic issue.
8:45
Um, but my specific
8:48
focus is on how can I help the
8:50
individuals build community, Because I think
8:53
there's a lot of loneliness and isolation, um, in
8:56
being clergy, um, but also to
8:59
really understand what am I bringing into the
9:02
situation that may be making it harder than it needs to
9:04
be. So that's kind of my focus.
9:07
Uh, I don't have the clout or
9:10
the, um, you know, status
9:13
or. I don't know, like,
9:14
um, I'm not in those
9:17
circles where we're talking about the systemic issue
9:20
of the church. And so
9:22
the focus that I bring is really helping
9:25
individuals focus on their own personal
9:27
health and how that is impacting their role as
9:30
clergy.
9:32
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, Brian, go
9:35
answer. Uh, the same.
9:36
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. Uh, yeah. So I'm Brian Davis.
9:39
I, uh, lead a nonprofit, uh,
9:42
organization called, uh, Green Room Leaders.
9:45
Um, and our primary goal is to help worship
9:48
leaders, specifically, uh, get off the
9:51
ministry treadmill of running from Sunday to
9:53
Sunday. Um, and so also,
9:56
yeah, care very deeply about their
9:59
health. Um, I'm also part, uh,
10:01
Time, uh, worship arts director at a
10:04
small, uh, small church
10:07
kind uh, of southeast of downtown
10:10
Denver. Um, and so get
10:13
to try to practice what I preach, I guess.
10:15
>> Loren: Right.
10:15
>> Brian Davis: Um, and uh, yeah,
10:18
so I guess for me, I love
10:21
all your answers, um, and
10:24
totally, wholeheartedly agree. Uh, for me
10:26
personally, uh, pastoral health, uh, is
10:29
when your identity is firmly rooted
10:32
in who you are in Christ as opposed to what
10:35
you do. Um, and uh, I
10:38
feel like that has become just so, uh,
10:41
just insidious, uh, I mean, in
10:44
every part of our culture, but seeing it happen in ministry
10:47
as well, um, and I've seen it happen in my life as
10:50
well, where we just don't know who we are.
10:52
Um, if we're not fulfilling our ministry
10:55
role. Like, if I'm not up on stage leading worship,
10:58
who am I? Um, and that was a question that I
11:01
wrestled with, uh, many years ago,
11:03
um, when I was given, uh, some medical
11:06
leave for ah, ah, a, ah,
11:09
stroke that I had had. Um, and
11:12
uh, it freaked me out. I was like, I don't. I don't
11:15
know what I'm supposed to do with myself if I'm not
11:18
standing on stage every Sunday singing songs for
11:21
people, you know. Um, and so
11:23
that. That has been my focus,
11:26
especially the last five, six years, is helping
11:29
worship leaders realize, like, it starts. It
11:32
starts way before you step on a stage.
11:35
Um, it starts with understanding who.
11:37
Who Christ sees you as in here.
11:40
Um, and uh. Yeah. So
11:43
there you go.
11:44
>> Loren: Brian. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, I'm so looking forward
11:47
to this conversation. I mean, I know all you people.
11:50
I've obviously, Martha, I've never.
11:53
We're hopefully going to do this this summer. Like, this is. This is my
11:56
goal. Martha and I are. I'm going to travel to
11:58
Martha's neck of the woods. Uh, and
12:01
um, my wife is allowing it as
12:04
an international trip.
12:08
>> Brian Davis: So, so kind of her.
12:10
>> Loren: I know she's like, okay, I'll come along. Uh, can
12:13
do that. Uh, so that's our goal. And Martha and I will get a
12:16
chance to connect in person.
12:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: But yeah, 3D over some food
12:20
and some, um.
12:21
>> Loren: Yeah, Kenzie and I obviously have had a chance to connect in
12:24
person. And Brian, uh, we've had. Brian's been on
12:27
the pod. I'll link this. Kenzie and Brian have been on the pod,
12:30
so I'll link their individual episodes too.
12:33
So I want to do this sort of where I
12:36
continue and ask you all some individual questions and then we'll
12:39
move to some group questions. But really what kind of got
12:41
me on this was Kinsie And I did our
12:44
interview last January, I think it was.
12:47
And then once we stopped recording, I kind of just
12:50
hit Kinsie with these questions, like, why do pastors
12:53
do this? And just gave her some silly questions.
12:55
So I sort of want to continue that down that vein. And,
12:58
Kinsie you can choose to kind of respond how you
13:01
want to. Brian, I have some doozies for
13:04
you, too,
13:07
but Kinsie first, like, I think I said
13:10
this to you then, but I'm going to repeat this
13:12
question whenever I feel like I go hang out with
13:15
mainline pastors
13:17
and we'll bang on the evangelical
13:20
leaders here in a second. But whenever I hang out with mainline
13:23
pastors, it seems like mainline pastors are
13:26
always, like, when we're getting into Uber or something, we'll always be like,
13:29
oh, we're pastors. But m. We're cool because we cuss
13:31
and we drink and whatever.
13:35
And I'm just like, what is that about? Like, what is that
13:37
about, Kinsey?
13:40
>> Kinsie Tate: So I really think it's about,
13:43
um, getting away
13:46
from that perfect pastor
13:49
rigidity, um, that can feel
13:51
really stifling of, like, you know, you show up
13:54
on Sunday and you're expected to be this
13:57
model of Christianity and this
14:00
perfect, um, like, Christ, like, figure. And even
14:03
though rationally we know that that's not real, and
14:06
people react to us more when we are
14:08
vulnerable and, like, show all of our
14:11
faults. I think there's still
14:13
this carryover of what
14:16
it is to be clergy. I mean, you know, we've got ethical
14:19
standards and that kind of stuff. And so it.
14:22
I think it's. When clergy get together,
14:26
it's almost like, let's just
14:28
completely blow out all that out of
14:31
the water and just, you know, like, I don't
14:34
know, almost go to the exact opposite,
14:37
um, just to prove that we're not,
14:40
um, like, I don't know,
14:42
square or whatever. I can't think of a more, like, up
14:45
to date word from the 1950s.
14:48
But that's, I think, where that, like, Persona
14:51
comes from of, like, you know, like, you have to be this good
14:54
church pastor. And when you don't have your church pastor hat on,
14:57
it's almost like, let me show everyone how cool I
15:00
am by, like, boozing it up and cussing.
15:03
It's like, I mean, is that really who you want to be? Or does
15:06
it feel like you have to swing the
15:08
pendulum all the way to the other side,
15:11
um, to just show that you're
15:14
not whatever
15:17
this Persona is?
15:20
And so that's why I think most people,
15:23
most clergy, after they have a uh, like
15:26
event like that, they don't really feel good about it. It's almost
15:29
like this, the shadow side of ourselves that we let out
15:32
of the box every once in a while. It's like, well, let's put that back in real
15:35
quick and hide it away.
15:37
Um, so, yeah, I think a lot of times it's.
15:40
People don't feel good after doing that. I mean, usually physically,
15:43
you really don't feel good. And so there's just this
15:46
whole thing that goes along with it.
15:48
>> Loren: Yeah, the irony is like, those,
15:51
often those kind of clergy get togethers are meant to be like,
15:55
refilling. And so often like folks come
15:58
away like exhausted more. And I've, I've just
16:00
learned, like, I gotta say, like, hey, 8:00,
16:03
8:30, you know, um, whatever, like, that's my
16:06
bedtime. I mean, it's not really, but I need some time to shut
16:09
it down. Brian, you can respond to that same
16:12
question if you want to, but I also kind of want to ask you,
16:15
like, this is again, stereotypical, but I feel
16:18
like what I've seen, I don't know if this is a trend, that's still
16:21
a thing. But the whole like, smoking hot wife
16:23
thing, uh, it's like pastors gotta get up
16:26
and be like, oh, I got this smoking hot wife. And
16:29
what is this kind of like
16:32
similarly performative thing about whether
16:35
it's being like, oh, I'm so like, my wife and I have a perfect
16:38
relationship or like, you know, I'm
16:41
super on fire for God. And I'm certainly
16:43
caricaturing evangelicalism. But do you want to
16:46
speak to that a little bit?
16:47
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, man, I think it comes
16:50
from, I hope it comes
16:53
from kind of a good place of like, you know, hey,
16:56
I'm, I'm saying this because I, I love
16:59
my wife and I, uh, you know, I believe in her and I, you
17:02
know, um, you know, in, in some
17:04
evangelical circles, it's like, yeah, I believe in her, but I'm not going to let
17:07
her, you know, actually do anything important.
17:10
Um, but, but it does, it
17:12
comes across as super kind of creepy
17:15
and uh, and almost kind of gross.
17:18
Like, I don't want to hear you talk about your wife like that from the
17:21
stage. Like, I don't want to hear you talk about your wife like that
17:24
anywhere. But, um, uh, but yeah, I
17:26
just, it, I don't know, I think it is
17:29
that, that urge to try to come across
17:31
as like, relatable to
17:35
the everyday person, you know, like,
17:37
like, you see, look, look at me. I, you know,
17:40
just because I'm on this stage, and I'm wearing a, you know, $500
17:43
watch, and I, you know, $600 tennis
17:46
shoes. I'm still. I'm still just like you. Like, look at my
17:49
wife. She's smoking hot. Aren't I cool? Because I called her smoking
17:52
hot. You know, and so I think there is this. This urge
17:55
and this desire to be really,
17:59
uh. I'm. See, I'm just like you. I talk just
18:02
like you. Sometimes I drink just like you.
18:04
Um, you know, uh, I
18:07
see how similar we are. Um,
18:10
but often the reality is, like, so
18:13
far from that, like, you're. You're almost putting on this
18:16
show. And so maybe they do that in public to show,
18:19
like, you know, I'm not putting on this show. I actually am
18:21
this way. Um, sometimes that can
18:24
be a clue that maybe things actually behind the scenes are
18:27
way, way worse. You know,
18:30
that's the. That's sort of just this little bit that
18:33
you let out is actually a clue to something deeper
18:36
and way more awful. Um,
18:39
so, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question,
18:42
but I think it's just this desire to,
18:45
again, sort of strip away that. Sort of
18:48
pull away that curtain of like, no, m. I'm
18:50
no different than you are. Um,
18:53
but I think there's still this reality that,
18:56
yeah, you are still pretty different than,
18:59
you know, than most people you come across
19:02
on the street.
19:03
>> Loren: Yeah, Kenzie.
19:04
>> Kinsie Tate: Yeah, I just want to piggyback on that. And also, what
19:07
you were asking me about, I think some of that, too,
19:10
is how lonely
19:13
clergy are, because it's this whole thing of, like, you are set
19:16
apart and you are put up. I mean, Brian, you called it
19:18
a stage. Uh, it's like you're up there and you're
19:21
performing. And I think, Loren, to your
19:24
point about clergy gatherings is there's still. It's really
19:27
hard to turn off that switch of, like,
19:30
I still have to perform. And so maybe there is liquid courage.
19:33
You know, like, if we're drinking, it can kind of
19:36
settle the nerves. But. But I think that's
19:39
where problems come into play. Because if
19:42
that's the only way that I can relax, then, you know,
19:44
obviously, that can set you down a path of addiction
19:47
and that kind of stuff. Um, but,
19:50
yeah, you know, I heard the whole thing of clergy
19:53
usually, um, give sermons on things that they need to
19:56
hear themselves. And so I'm wondering if,
19:59
you know, that's the same in the evangelical tradition of,
20:02
you know, what they're talking about from the pulpit. Might
20:05
give you, um, a hint into
20:08
maybe some of the things they're struggling with or the things they're trying to
20:11
mask and hide from the congregation or
20:13
maybe even from themselves.
20:15
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, I totally. It's funny
20:18
that you bring that up. I was just talking about this the other day,
20:21
um, when. Getting our way
20:24
back Machine, when everything happened at New Life with Ted
20:27
Haggard. Um, my. My older brother
20:29
was actually attending. He sang in the choir, like, very
20:32
involved at New Life. Um, and. And my family
20:35
had some connection there, too. We would attend every once in a
20:38
while. But when all that happens, you
20:41
know, and go even further back,
20:43
like, uh, Ted Haggard was very, you know,
20:46
anti lgbtq, like, and made
20:49
no bones about it. Like, he would preach that from
20:52
the platform. Like, and, you
20:54
know, my dad said, like, you know,
20:57
I'm. I'm. When all of the, you know, when all of
21:00
the defecation hit the rotary oscillator,
21:03
um, he, uh. My dad was like, yeah,
21:06
I'm not surprised at all. Um, because
21:08
often, like, what people rail against the
21:11
most from the platform when they're preaching
21:14
is usually the thing that they struggle with the most.
21:17
Um, and I was like, oh, dad, you're
21:20
real smart. Um, and then he cried because that was the first time I
21:23
ever said that to him. And it was, you know, it was a really touching
21:26
father son moment. Um, but, yeah, I just. I.
21:28
I think that's absolutely true. That. That a lot of those
21:31
things that we, um, that we try
21:34
to espouse from the stage or the things that we teach
21:37
and preach are often the things. Yeah. That I need to work on
21:40
the most in myself.
21:42
>> Loren: Yeah. So let Martha jump in here. And
21:45
Martha, feel free to respond to what's happened so
21:48
far. But I also want to ask you, from the perspective
21:51
of where this kind of performative nature, I
21:54
think happens a lot is, like, the
21:57
clergy group, like, the clergy
21:59
lunch. Like, I'm thinking, like, the behind the scenes.
22:02
That statement that Brian made. I think it was Brian. So
22:05
respond to any of this. Um, I'm thinking again of, like,
22:08
the clergy group, where there's one where I've
22:11
seen it, where there's, like, one clergy who either feels a need to
22:14
be super, like, oh, my ministry is going
22:17
so great, or almost like the opposite, I think, sometimes in
22:20
mainline circles where, like, things are so awful.
22:23
Like, what. What hits you there?
22:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think just to
22:28
kind of build on what has been shared so far.
22:31
Like, I think everybody is naming,
22:34
um, a, ah, piece in this
22:37
that we don't want to lose, which is,
22:39
like, pedestals haven't Served
22:42
clergy well. Right. Like nobody has
22:45
been served well. Um, by being put
22:48
on a pedestal, either the person
22:51
themselves or congregations. It's just, it's
22:54
not a healthy dynamic. So that need
22:57
to, to really position ourselves as
23:00
fellow disciples who are also on the
23:02
journey. Not perfect. Um,
23:05
and at the end of the day we
23:08
are just people. I think that that
23:10
is extremely important.
23:13
Um, I mean, yeah, you get
23:15
the bitch and brag dynamic
23:18
in clergy gatherings. That can be
23:22
not the funnest thing about
23:25
um, clergy gatherings. And I think that you
23:28
know, kind of at the end of the day
23:30
it is really hard to get
23:33
outside of
23:35
the um,
23:38
success, failure, mhm.
23:41
Uh, like
23:43
polemic that we're set up with in ministry.
23:46
Because you know, at the end of the
23:49
day like there is very
23:52
much a sense of competition
23:55
across our churches. Um,
23:58
I don't think that we call that
24:01
out enough. I don't think that we
24:04
are honest enough about it. The more
24:07
that um,
24:10
Christianity and participation in
24:12
organized religion declines,
24:15
the more that there is a sense that we're all competing
24:18
for scarcer resources.
24:21
And so um, it
24:23
is I think hard. Even when we're trying
24:26
to be fellow disciples and even when we're trying to get
24:29
off that pedestal. I think it can be hard
24:32
to step outside of that
24:35
need like to
24:37
prove that we're
24:40
successful, um,
24:43
or to
24:46
get outside of that guilt that we
24:48
feel when we're not successful.
24:52
Um, like that we just get so set
24:54
up to
24:56
um, feel like if
24:59
things aren't going well, it's my
25:02
fault.
25:02
>> Loren: Yeah. Martha, let's stay on
25:05
this because I'm sensing from
25:08
Brian something's bubbling up within
25:11
me. I just wrote a substack about
25:14
processing my own grief and be real,
25:17
like somewhat guilt from my own church
25:19
planting efforts like that ended three
25:22
years ago. So
25:25
Brian, it seems like you got something bubbling up here.
25:29
>> Brian Davis: Oh, I, uh, yeah. I mean I'm,
25:32
I'm wearing my glasses so you probably can't see it. Like I'm,
25:35
I'm tearing up a little bit because that is
25:37
like, gosh,
25:40
that, that
25:43
success, failure, competition
25:45
piece is so,
25:48
it's uh, it's so. I feel
25:51
like it's so destructive and it's so ugly. And
25:54
it's something that I have struggled with too. Like, I mean
25:57
I, before I, before I served at the church
26:00
I'm at now, like I, I served at
26:02
two very large, fast growing churches in the
26:05
Denver metro area. Um, and
26:08
I still will see or hear about, you
26:11
know, these great successes that they're having in growth
26:14
and their, their worship team well, they're making albums
26:17
now and you know, all this kind of stuff and, and I'm
26:20
like, yeah, and I'm leading worship for 125 people
26:23
on a Sunday, you know, in a, you know, in a
26:26
borrowed building, you know, um, like what,
26:29
what, where did it all go wrong? And uh, here's
26:32
the, the funny thing.
26:33
>> Loren: I'm.
26:33
>> Brian Davis: I'm happier in ministry than I think I've ever
26:36
been in my 27 years of doing
26:38
this. But I still, I see that and
26:41
there's something in me that goes, you're, oh, you missed
26:44
it, you missed that train. And ah,
26:46
uh, I just, I hate, I hate that that is
26:49
there, you know, um, and I, you
26:52
know, I need to find some way to try to
26:55
integrate that for sure. But like,
26:59
you know, and I try not to, but I look at social
27:02
media and I see, you know,
27:05
the people at the big churches and I see the lights and I see the
27:08
hands raised and I see all of that stuff and
27:11
it is hard for me not to think like that could that have
27:14
been me? Like, how different would my life have been?
27:17
And then all the, you know, like you said, the guilt that comes
27:20
in with, you know, the stuff that
27:23
surrounds why I ended up leaving that church and all
27:25
that, like, it's just, it's uh, it
27:28
is painful to think like that is
27:32
uh, it's even more
27:35
painful to let it go. I think
27:37
it, it bubbled up in me because like I never
27:40
thought about it that way of uh, like
27:42
oh, there is still some
27:45
guilt and some regret that lives
27:48
there, um, as a result of
27:51
how things went and where my life
27:54
has taken me now.
27:56
>> Loren: Um, so yeah, well thanks for sharing that.
27:59
Brian Kinsie what's rising within you
28:02
as you hear this conversation?
28:04
>> Kinsie Tate: Well, ah, so Loren, you were at.
28:07
When I was at PTS and I talked about like typical stress
28:10
responses and like compete, um, as a typical stress
28:13
response and that's what's coming up for me. And I
28:16
think, I think we often
28:18
feel that in our
28:22
um, business context, whatever that may be. I mean
28:25
I definitely feel it with a non profit I will compare myself
28:28
to others and feel like I'm behind and other times
28:31
I'll feel like, yeah, I'm like winning. You
28:34
know, that's not as often but it's that it's
28:36
that same kind of
28:39
comparison and I
28:42
don't think that's inherently wrong. Like I think it's good as human
28:45
beings to kind of think about. I mean
28:48
we can't do it without it. We're social beings so we
28:50
constantly Kind of compare so that we can make sure that we fit in and we
28:53
belong. I mean, ultimately it's about belonging that can
28:56
comparison. But when it goes
28:59
off course is when we feel like,
29:02
um, I don't belong. Like, what I'm doing
29:05
isn't good enough. The people that I'm bringing
29:08
To Christ, these 125 people, Brian, you know,
29:11
like, maybe they have deeper, more
29:14
meaningful relationships with Jesus Christ and each
29:17
other. But, you know, when we're in that
29:19
stress response, um, and it can come from, like,
29:22
maybe money's tight. Like, I know a lot of churches, money's tight.
29:25
We've got these old crumbling buildings. And it's like, I'm
29:28
doing really good ministry with these people. And
29:31
I feel like I'm failing because we don't have money.
29:34
Or maybe I'm struggling because I can't get a raise,
29:37
you know, and I. And then I feel guilty about asking for a raise
29:40
because, like, the church is struggling. So there's, there's
29:43
all these layers,
29:46
um, that I think
29:48
trying to. When you feel that rise up is like, is
29:51
this about capitalism? And I feel like I'm not producing.
29:54
Is this about patriarchy and I need to be a certain way to
29:57
be considered, like, powerful. Is this
30:00
about, um, I'm just tired
30:03
and when I'm tired, I feel like I don't do a good
30:05
job. Um,
30:08
so it's, there's, it's so complex.
30:11
Um, and I think that's why these conversations are important.
30:14
And this is what I would really love for clergy gatherings to
30:17
be. You know, like, we could talk about these things.
30:20
Things and really have some insight and feel those emotions
30:23
well up and have a safe space to talk about
30:26
it and maybe hear from, you know, like, you heard from
30:28
Martha. It's like, oh, I'd never thought about it that way. Like,
30:31
that's so helpful. Gives me a new level of insight
30:34
to kind of integrate what it is that I'm feeling so it
30:37
doesn't come out sideways, like from the
30:39
pulpit, you know, or towards my spouse.
30:42
Um, so, yeah, like, I would love it if
30:45
clergy gatherings could be like this, but I think it takes
30:48
a level of vulnerability and within yourself
30:51
to feel safe enough to do that. And a lot of them are.
30:54
To Martha's point, you're competitive. You
30:57
walk in with your guard up of like, I gotta prove that I'm
31:00
doing a good job because I feel so worthless and guilty. But I
31:03
can't let anybody see that.
31:04
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Martha,
31:07
you. You kind of initiated this conversation. I mean, you've been
31:10
doing this. 20 years of ordained ministry.
31:13
The Anglican Church in Canada, again, I only know from
31:16
a distance, but I imagine from what I've heard,
31:19
it's facing many of the same challenges, if not
31:22
further along. Right. Than churches in
31:24
the States face the pressure on pastors, the
31:27
dwindling resources.
31:31
Share more what your thoughts are on this.
31:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, there was an article that
31:37
came out maybe a month ago saying that
31:40
the Anglican Church of Canada is already dead.
31:43
So, um, there's sort of
31:46
regular, um, regular
31:49
reports on, um, the
31:51
declining resources and the declining
31:54
membership. And
31:56
um, you know,
32:00
my colleagues will hear Brian's
32:03
words about, uh, 125 people and
32:06
think like, I'd be thrilled to
32:09
have 125 people,
32:11
ah, on a Sunday. Like,
32:14
we're definitely talking about different scales
32:17
here. Um, you
32:19
know, I think in many of our
32:22
denominational systems and definitely in the
32:24
Anglican system, there is
32:27
a body
32:30
that should allow
32:33
these systemic, collective
32:35
conversations to take place.
32:39
Um, but at the end of the day,
32:43
it, I think on the ground still
32:45
feels as if, like we're all just
32:48
competing for a smaller and smaller market share.
32:51
And then there's tremendous
32:54
stress and grief,
32:57
not just for the
32:59
pastor, but for the congregations as
33:02
well. And then that can
33:05
kind of produce a feedback loop
33:08
that makes, um. Yeah,
33:11
that makes it all
33:14
the harder to minister in
33:16
a congregation that is just consumed with
33:19
grief about seeing something that
33:22
they've loved and served slipping away
33:25
from them. Um, yeah.
33:27
>> Loren: And it's like it's the pastor's fault, clearly. Right.
33:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I guess the other dynamic I
33:33
would just want to name as well
33:35
is, um, the
33:38
hero worship. When things do go
33:41
well, isn't any healthier. Like
33:44
that's like, certainly we can feel a lot of
33:46
guilt, but it's also really
33:50
a bad, um, spiritual place to
33:53
get into where you start to believe your own press.
33:56
When people say like, oh,
33:59
well, you know, we've,
34:01
you've saved us and we can't do this without you.
34:05
Um, so
34:08
all of that can just
34:11
be really soul destroying.
34:14
Um, right across the board.
34:17
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Let's
34:20
take some individual questions here. And I do want to come
34:23
back, Martha, to the topic of
34:26
systemic issues. Kinsie what are
34:29
your thoughts on
34:32
signs that a pastor might be aware of that
34:36
they're approaching burnout or some kind
34:39
of real mental health challenge?
34:42
>> Kinsie Tate: Yeah, I think if, um, a big sign
34:45
is if you are
34:47
dreading going to work, I think that's a pretty clear
34:50
indication that you're probably hardcore in
34:53
burnout at that point. Um, if you're just kind of
34:56
like, ah, I don't really like this aspect of my job.
34:59
Um, you know, that's not. It's just something to
35:02
check in on. But if you are. You're
35:05
exhausted all the time, you don't have energy,
35:08
um, you're kind of. You're cranky, and you really
35:11
think of the people in your congregation as
35:14
bothersome. Um, like, there's a lot more
35:16
bothersome people than there. There used to be.
35:20
Um, I think that is an indication. And
35:23
also, I, um, recently was talking to a pastor and he was talking
35:26
about. He is. He was coming back from three months of
35:28
leave. Um, and he
35:31
said. And he had a tremendous amount of guilt about this, but he said,
35:34
I just don't want to take care of
35:37
people. I don't. I don't have it in
35:39
me to hear about their problems and feel like I have
35:42
to take care of it. And I'm like, yeah, pretty
35:45
pretty much hardcore burnout.
35:47
>> Loren: Yeah.
35:48
>> Kinsie Tate: Um, and the tricky part about that
35:50
is, what are the
35:53
options? You know, like, he had been on leave. And
35:56
so then what do you do at that point? Um, how
35:59
do. How do you address that? And
36:02
that's, you know, kind of an individual thing to kind of look at what
36:05
are my options? Some of it can be. Is looking
36:08
at, um, are you sure?
36:11
Like, why is it your responsibility to take care of them?
36:14
Like, is that the only way that this would work? Are
36:17
there laity that you could share this with? And maybe you could create
36:20
a pastoral care team, you know, kind of getting creative?
36:23
But it's hard when you're in burnout to be
36:25
creative and to feel like there are options. So
36:28
it's just this kind of. It can be this,
36:31
um, spiral down. Um, and
36:34
so that's why, again, I think it's even more important that
36:37
you have. You build up a
36:39
cohort of clergy or good friends. You know, it
36:42
doesn't have to be clergy that you can talk through about this, but I
36:45
think it's helpful to have other clergy because then they can help you
36:48
be creative when you're in a bad
36:50
spot, um, or. And sometimes we just
36:53
need to be heard and feel like we're seen. And that can
36:56
help relieve a lot of that.
36:59
Um, so, yeah, I think those are the big things you can
37:02
look at your. If you're super anxious, that's another
37:04
indication that you might be, um, on the cusp
37:07
of burnout, of like, oh, my gosh, I've got to get up there and I've got
37:10
to preach again. And, like, I have Nothing. And I, I don't even know
37:13
that I believe it anymore. You know, that that kind
37:16
of stuff is. That's rough.
37:19
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good. Uh, Brian, I want to ask this
37:22
question to you. I've heard this said by
37:25
other leaders who influence clergy,
37:28
that clergy and other church leaders can
37:31
get in the space where we really look at ourselves
37:34
as employees of God rather than as
37:37
children of God. We're so obsessed with kind
37:39
of facilitating other
37:42
spiritual encounters that we sort of lose and
37:45
disconnect from God ourselves.
37:48
Uh, what are your perspectives on that?
37:51
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, um, that
37:54
sort of like doing.
37:57
The way I sort of differentiate that is doing for God versus
38:00
being with God.
38:01
>> Loren: Right, right.
38:02
>> Brian Davis: Um, that's one of the big,
38:04
um, distinctions we try to make, uh,
38:07
with green room leaders when we're talking to worship leaders about it, is that
38:10
there's this, there's. I mean, from the
38:13
time that we, you know, I mean, gosh,
38:16
even going back before we probably even became followers
38:19
of Jesus, like you're a 5, 6, 7, 8
38:22
year old kid and somebody first asks you,
38:25
like, what do you want to, what do you want to be when you grow up?
38:28
You know what they're really asking you is how are you going to
38:31
contribute to this great society that we've created?
38:34
You know, um, what are you going to do,
38:37
um, to be productive? Uh, and then that
38:40
seeps into our Christianity because
38:42
even, you know, even at least
38:45
for in the evangelical tradition, when I gave my life
38:48
to Christ, um, and invited Jesus into my heart,
38:51
um, you know, there was all this great
38:54
fanfare and you know, like, they do this whole big
38:57
thing at church. And then as soon as it's
39:00
over, like, I was whisked away to the pastor's
39:03
office, given a Bible and said, okay, go home and read the Book
39:05
of Mark. That was it. Like,
39:08
and, and then figure out, like, okay, now what are you going to do?
39:11
Like, how are you going to serve? What are you going to do for God?
39:14
Um, and, uh,
39:17
man, that if there had been,
39:20
you know, like, oh, you know, okay, so
39:23
you've just made the decision to follow Jesus.
39:26
Now you get to go away on a week long silent
39:28
retreat and just enjoy being with
39:31
him. How different would my
39:34
Christianity look? You know, how much different would all of our
39:36
Christianity look if there wasn't such a
39:39
huge emphasis put on now what are you going to do for
39:42
God? Um, and I think that
39:45
again, is one of those things that just leads to that burnout,
39:48
but also it leads to that sort of that
39:51
feeling of indispensability. You know of,
39:54
like, well, if, if I'm not, if I'm not
39:57
going to do it, nobody else will. You know, there was
39:59
a. I still hear it every once in a while,
40:02
but, you know, it, it
40:05
really started to rise up kind of the middle, uh,
40:08
early 2000s where it was like, you know,
40:11
you'd be in your pre service meeting or
40:14
whatever and, and someone, usually the lead
40:17
pastor would say something like, okay everybody,
40:19
like, this may be our one
40:22
chance to ever speak the truth of
40:25
the gospel to the people that are sitting in these seats,
40:28
so don't blow it. Like,
40:30
I like. How much pressure
40:33
are you putting on ourselves? Like,
40:36
uh, that, I mean, that just. Pardon
40:39
my language, but that just reeked of bullshit to me from the beginning.
40:42
Like we. That this is not
40:45
the fact that someone's personal salvation is
40:48
entirely up to me and how I perform from this
40:50
stage. I had to, I had to reject that
40:53
right away. But there are so many who haven't and still
40:56
put all that pressure on themselves,
40:59
um, to, to be the one
41:02
hope for these people who have walked through the doors of
41:05
our church. There's only one hope, and that's
41:08
Jesus. Um, and I'm not Jesus.
41:11
Uh, so, um, I'm going to try to
41:13
start taking the pressure off myself and take all this stuff
41:16
off of me, um, and just see what it's
41:19
like to be with, uh,
41:22
and see the fruit of that
41:25
relationship. Um, it's slower.
41:28
Um, it's not as exciting, it's not as
41:31
sexy, but man, it's really good
41:33
fruit. Um, is what I'm finding that when
41:36
I can, when I can slow myself down and invite
41:39
other people to slow down and just be with and
41:42
do ministry with God instead of for Him.
41:45
The fruit of that is so much better.
41:48
Um, and it's, it's so much less
41:50
damaging to my soul and to the souls of the
41:53
people around me. Um, so.
41:56
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is great. Martha, what's,
41:59
what's uh, what are you hearing here that you want to echo?
42:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think that like,
42:05
there definitely is a
42:07
sacrificial element to being a worship
42:10
leader. Right? Like, you can't just
42:13
get lost in wonder, love and praise like
42:15
you, you do need to be attentive
42:18
to shepherding your people in a
42:21
particular way. Um, that,
42:24
you know, for me anyway, and I said this many times
42:27
on the podcast, like, it, it actually
42:30
is kind of against my natural
42:33
grain. Like, I'm not a naturally extroverted
42:36
person. I don't enjoy
42:38
speaking in, like, I don't
42:40
enjoy public Speaking,
42:43
um, I think I'm good at it, but, like, I.
42:46
It's not how I would choose to spend my
42:49
time. And yet, you know,
42:52
I think when I'm healthy in ministry,
42:55
I can experience those sacrificial
42:58
elements as
43:01
very spiritually meaningful.
43:04
Because I find,
43:06
like, my. My prayer center is
43:09
just like, God, I need you to do something with this.
43:12
Because, like, I. I don't have,
43:15
like, confidence in this, just
43:18
like, by myself. Um,
43:21
so, yeah, like, I. I feel like
43:24
if I can return to that prayer, like,
43:27
whatever I'm feeling stressed about
43:30
in the worship today and whatever I'm
43:33
anxious about, and getting up in that pulpit, like,
43:36
God, if you can, please do something with it,
43:39
like, that's. That can be
43:42
a very, uh, rich
43:45
place to land. And,
43:47
um, and
43:51
it can bring a ton of joy in ministry,
43:54
even when, um, it's not
43:57
always easy.
43:58
>> Loren: Yeah,
44:01
well, let's shift gears here slightly, just if
44:04
only because we're already 40 minutes in
44:06
and, man, we need about, what,
44:09
40 more hours, I think. But, Martha, I wanted
44:12
you to. I want you to lead off this part of the conversation. But we
44:15
talk about systemic changes now,
44:18
certainly for our guests here,
44:21
some of us are in more
44:23
defined systems than others.
44:26
Obviously, in evangelicalism, there
44:29
are what. Brian, you could speak better
44:31
to this than I could. There are some more structured
44:34
networks than others. Um, but, Martha, why
44:37
don't you start off talking about, especially from your
44:40
perspective as a pastor, what you think
44:44
structurally could be done, whether it's in the local church
44:47
setting or in a network denominational
44:49
setting, to help pastors.
44:51
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think I have a couple
44:54
of observations,
44:56
um, about that, and they are linked on
44:59
both a congregational level and a
45:02
denominational level.
45:06
I would say, by and large,
45:09
I have enjoyed a happy
45:11
ministry. It hasn't always
45:14
been easy, and I have had times of
45:16
struggle, but by and large, like, two decades
45:19
of ministry have been happy.
45:23
And the major thing that I
45:25
credit to that is that
45:28
I have always worked in a team,
45:31
so I have never felt
45:34
like I have to be the jack of all
45:36
trades. And I've never
45:39
felt particularly lonely
45:41
in ministry, which I think is,
45:44
uh, you know, quite different from a lot of
45:47
people's experience. So, um,
45:52
I think that there is something systemically
45:54
that we could do with that observation.
45:58
So in my denomination,
46:01
okay, like, we have dwindling
46:03
congregations and dwindling resources,
46:06
but we do have resources. Like, we do have
46:09
a lot of real estate. We have a lot
46:12
of bank, uh, accounts.
46:15
Um, that's not to diminish
46:18
the very real financial
46:21
hardships. Um, that a lot of individual
46:24
congregations and some
46:27
networks face in the Anglican Church. But it
46:30
is to say that if you looked across the Anglican Church of
46:32
Canada, you could,
46:35
um, you could,
46:38
like, sum up a lot of resources
46:42
that feel like,
46:45
uh, a complete system of scarcity when
46:48
everybody's just fighting over those
46:51
resources in their own individual congregations. Right.
46:54
So what I would love to see
46:57
is some collective
46:59
conversations about, okay, like,
47:02
we're, we're all in this because
47:04
we love our church and we want
47:07
to serve God.
47:10
And so collectively, what do
47:12
we have? Like, what gifts do we
47:15
have? And then how are we going
47:18
to direct those gifts
47:20
to do the work that
47:23
we believe that we're called to do? I think that's a very
47:26
different conversation than just
47:29
an individual pastor in,
47:32
uh, an individual congregation
47:35
feeling like, why can't I make this
47:38
work? And how are
47:41
we going to keep this ship afloat?
47:45
So, I mean, that's a pretty specific
47:49
example, uh, from my context.
47:52
But I think that there
47:55
are, um, those sort of
47:57
systemic conversations waiting to be held
48:00
across, um, the Christian
48:03
landscape. And I think that the
48:06
more that we can, um,
48:08
think about how we
48:11
create teams of ministry, and I don't mean
48:14
just ordained leaders,
48:17
um, but teams of
48:19
people whose gifts complement
48:22
one another and who are,
48:25
you know, deployed, uh,
48:27
equipped, resourced, um,
48:30
to be able to share those gifts,
48:33
to build up the body of
48:36
Christ in the place where they're called,
48:38
um, I think that really could be a game
48:41
changer.
48:42
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Martha. I'm just thinking of a conversation I
48:45
had yesterday with another pastor, and we talked about,
48:49
like, even just
48:51
doing something where one pastor's preaching
48:54
live and the video is being piped into another church.
48:58
I mean, like, it's not. Obviously, everyone wants
49:01
a great dynamic preacher in front of them, but also like Life
49:03
Church in the States has made a model of
49:06
that. So it's not like it's completely
49:08
unfeasible. Um, Brian and
49:11
Kinsie Let's start with Kinsie What do you thought? What
49:14
thoughts do you have on just that kind of the systemic nature?
49:17
Obviously you come up, you come about it from a
49:20
different perspective.
49:22
>> Kinsie Tate: Yeah, I think,
49:23
um, you know, and I'm thinking of
49:26
it from more of a mainline perspective where there's. There
49:29
tends to be a middle judicatory. Like there are people
49:32
that are in upper, higher levels in
49:35
denominations.
49:36
Um, I feel like we have a lot of
49:39
meetings and there's not a lot of action. Um,
49:42
and that really could be because we don't do conflict
49:45
well in the church. Like, we, we can often
49:48
get stuck on being the church of. And we want to
49:51
hear everyone's perspective and we want to make sure everyone's heard. And
49:54
it's like, yes, and at some point we've got
49:57
to move beyond meetings and actually start
50:00
just trying stuff and really looking at it as this
50:03
is totally an experiment and it
50:05
could be an epic fail and we realize that, but there
50:08
could be learning and
50:11
um, new insight to come out of that. And
50:14
I think we're so often stuck in this analysis
50:17
paralysis mode of like, we need more data, we need more
50:20
assurance of like, like, no, like just get out there and do
50:23
it. Like embody it. Like get out there
50:26
and I don't know, try some programs or something. So
50:29
I don't exactly know
50:31
what that is about. Um, maybe it's just
50:34
human nature and maybe when you get to
50:37
a certain level you have a lot more tendency
50:40
to be risk averse. Um, but I think
50:43
we need some courage and some bravery because otherwise
50:46
we're just going to die due to attrition, you know, like,
50:49
because we're not doing anything, we're just stuck.
50:52
So that's my ideas around, like the
50:55
systemic issues.
50:57
>> Loren: Brian, let me, uh, obviously in an
50:59
evangelical space, there's not as much
51:02
formalization or necessarily organization.
51:05
Obviously that somewhat varies, right? Depending on
51:08
the tradition within evangelicalism. Obviously Southern
51:11
Baptists have a denomination, Vineyard,
51:14
what Calvary. They have various levels of
51:16
organization. Feel free to respond to what
51:19
Martha and Kinsie said. But I'm also curious, from your perspective,
51:22
do you think that lack of organization is sometimes
51:25
a challenge for pastors or leaders?
51:28
Uh, I'll speak from my own experience. There was a time, even
51:31
though I was working for a denominational church
51:35
because the church was so cut off from the
51:38
denomination, it felt like I was kind of on an
51:41
island. And when like I was getting hammered
51:44
by the church for things that were not fair, it was like I could
51:47
be like, hey, the denomination says this and they're like, hey, we don't care.
51:50
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. Ah, yeah, yeah.
51:52
I, man, I,
51:56
I'm not as, I'm not as familiar
51:59
with, you know, the like, mainline
52:01
sort of, uh, you know,
52:05
structures and organizations. So like
52:08
when I, when I hear like my Methodist friends,
52:11
you know, say like, yeah, well I'm not pastoring this
52:14
church anymore because the, you know, because the
52:17
synod or whatever, they, they decided I need to go to this church now
52:20
and it's like, yeah, oh, they can do that. Like, it just seems
52:22
so, seems so foreign to me. So I don't know a ton
52:25
about that. Um, I do know, like
52:28
there is organizational structure within the
52:31
evangelical church, even non denominational, but
52:34
where I think we've, we've pretty much
52:37
just adopted it all from big business.
52:40
Um, and so you know, your lead
52:42
pastors, CEO, your executive pastor
52:45
is your you know, COO
52:49
or whatever, you know. So like we have,
52:51
you can, you can almost take those organizational
52:54
structures from big business and superimpose them on top of
52:57
a lot of especially larger evangelical
53:00
churches. Um, which I think
53:03
there are plus sides to that because yeah, you do need some
53:06
good leadership. You do need that organization.
53:09
Uh, but it has also, I think we've also
53:11
adopted a lot of big business strategies. And
53:14
so um,
53:17
where like you know, we start asking ourselves
53:20
questions like what's the win? You know, and
53:22
we, and we operate our budgets the
53:25
way that big businesses operate their budgets and we
53:28
make decisions based on a fear of failure.
53:31
Like, like, you know, like you were saying Kinsie you know
53:34
it. And uh, you. So
53:36
basically what are we going to do to protect the bottom
53:39
line? And, but there's a lot of confusion about
53:42
what that bottom line is. Is that bottom line like
53:45
the souls that we're saving is that bottom line,
53:48
the music that we're doing is that bottom line,
53:51
the, the amount of money that we're bringing in, uh, is
53:54
that bottom line the number of butts that are in the seats?
53:57
It's so nebulous. Um, and so
54:00
that has caused, I think that's what is causing a lot
54:03
of the attrition that you're seeing on
54:06
evangelical church staffs. Um,
54:09
they're like, I, I don't understand the game anymore,
54:12
so I'm just not gonna play it. And so,
54:15
um, so they are, they're self ejecting
54:18
because they just don't, they don't know the rules of the game
54:21
and they don't know how to play it. Um, as far as
54:23
like systemic changes that I would love to
54:26
see within the evangelical church,
54:29
um, I think there's a lot that we can learn
54:32
from, um, models,
54:35
you know, like the Anglican Church,
54:38
where you know, that we probably
54:41
could use a little bit more accountability from the
54:44
top down. We probably could use a little bit more structure.
54:46
Um, but I think we could learn a lot about
54:49
like congregational care, um,
54:52
and from, from those models. I know
54:55
there, there's a, there's a group of, I
54:58
guess more evangelical churches, evangelical
55:00
ish churches here in the Denver area,
55:03
um, that have adopted more of like a parish
55:06
model, uh, for how they care for their congregations
55:09
where it's all centered around neighborhoods. You know,
55:12
it's not necessarily like, how could we reach the whole
55:15
city for Christ? Or how can we reach our whole state or the
55:17
whole world? They're like, how could we just reach our. Our
55:20
neighborhood? Um, and how could we.
55:23
How can we mobilize the people within our
55:25
congregation to care for their neighborhood
55:28
and things like that? So. Because a lot of the. A lot of the
55:31
burnout that comes in the evangelical
55:34
world comes from that pressure to be everything
55:37
for everyone. And so we have a program for
55:40
every single person in the church. Like, you
55:42
know, our ministry for people with
55:45
size 8 shoes who are 55
55:48
and have hazel eyes. We'll meet on Thursday
55:50
nights. Oh, and we've hired a pastor
55:53
just specifically for those people. You
55:56
know, um, it's. It's
55:59
just ridiculous. And so to be able to
56:02
put that. To put that onus
56:05
on the congregation, to be the
56:07
priesthood of believers and say, like, you have what
56:10
you need to care for the people around you,
56:13
and if you don't have what you need, then
56:16
we'll step in and we'll help you. But it
56:19
just. The fact that we have a program,
56:22
uh, and an opportunity for every single person
56:25
and staff that with a pastor, it's
56:28
just getting out of hand. So, um, I would love to
56:31
see us learn a little bit more, uh,
56:34
from our high church brothers
56:37
and sisters, about how to care for our congregations
56:39
and care for our communities without it having to be a
56:42
staff person all the time.
56:45
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, let's
56:47
do this.
56:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: We're.
56:49
>> Loren: We're approaching an hour here, and I don't want to keep you all too
56:51
much longer. Let's take a break, and we'll come back with
56:54
some closing questions.
56:59
All right, we're back. So let's do some practical
57:02
things, so
57:04
maybe share a
57:07
resource, whether it's this
57:09
podcast. Right. That folks can listen to.
57:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Definitely. That's one of the resources.
57:14
>> Loren: Yeah, absolutely. Martha, I was hoping you'd at least take up that
57:17
mantle. Um,
57:20
uh, something practical someone can do to support
57:23
their own mental, emotional, and spiritual health, and
57:26
maybe something you've done
57:28
yourselves to take that first step,
57:31
uh, toward help. Uh, so,
57:34
Martha, why don't you begin?
57:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, and
57:40
shameless plug, um, is
57:42
intentional. But, um,
57:45
I, as I've been listening to this
57:48
conversation, um, like, the word that
57:51
just keeps bubbling up for me is
57:53
learning. And I think that when we
57:56
can be people who are in
57:59
ministry and in the life of
58:02
faith, as students, which
58:05
is what disciple actually means, you know,
58:08
as people who are learning,
58:11
um, then I do think that that
58:14
is a big way that we
58:16
dismantle, um,
58:19
the success, failure dichotomy. I think that
58:22
that is a, um, big way that
58:25
we, um, take the
58:30
performative anxiety, some air out of the
58:33
tires on that. Performative anxiety is
58:35
when, like, we have that permission to
58:38
try some things and then to know that we're going to be
58:41
able to learn from them together.
58:44
Um, and I think
58:47
that really is, like, why
58:50
Loren and I do this podcast. Like,
58:52
ah, I think that we have a variety of reasons why
58:55
we do it. For me, like, that's the big reason. Like, I
58:58
just, I want a space where
59:01
we're hearing from a whole bunch
59:04
of different perspectives about what
59:07
is actually happening and what we're learning,
59:10
um, so that we can like,
59:12
just be people who
59:16
realize, like, we are in a time
59:19
of absolutely epic
59:22
change in terms of,
59:25
um, religious
59:28
participation. And we
59:31
just have to put our student hats on and be willing
59:34
to hear one
59:36
another, listen deeply, um,
59:39
experiment,
59:42
um, and with the Holy Spirit as our
59:45
partner to figure out some next
59:47
steps. Um, so that would
59:50
be kind of the
59:54
resource piece, um, that I would
59:57
say on a just much more personal
1:00:01
level. I will, I will say like, for
1:00:03
myself, that my
1:00:06
wellness is really
1:00:09
attached, um, to
1:00:12
being able to be in my body
1:00:15
and um, build some
1:00:18
physical exercise into, into
1:00:21
my life. That doesn't sound like a super
1:00:23
spiritual thing to say. It is. Like, for me,
1:00:26
it really is. That is what I
1:00:29
need in order to have time to
1:00:32
reflect and pray, to discern,
1:00:35
um, to take that little knot
1:00:38
of yarn that's got all tangled up and to
1:00:40
feel like I can unknot it.
1:00:43
Um, and like
1:00:46
just a, A, uh, trick
1:00:49
that I started doing during the pandemic and I've really
1:00:52
tried to stay with it, is that when I have a phone call
1:00:55
that I need to make in my work, which
1:00:58
is often, I have a lot of phone calls I have to make. You know,
1:01:01
checking in with people and that kind of thing. I just try to
1:01:03
walk while I'm on the phone and
1:01:06
um, like, that's just kind of a
1:01:09
little hack that, uh, I think
1:01:12
can build some wellness. If the
1:01:14
weather stinks, then I walk around the
1:01:17
sanctuary while I'm talking on the phone.
1:01:19
>> Kinsie Tate: Own.
1:01:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, so,
1:01:23
yeah, those are.
1:01:25
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Kinsie
1:01:28
Kinsie share. Maybe something from,
1:01:31
you know, something you'd recommend to leaders, to pastors,
1:01:34
and then you're, well, save
1:01:36
your. We're going to give you time to plug your stuff. So give
1:01:39
a. I guess. Martha, we cheated, didn't we?
1:01:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: We cheated. Yeah, shamelessly.
1:01:44
>> Brian Davis: Hey, shamelessly cheated. It's your pod
1:01:46
show.
1:01:47
>> Kinsie Tate: We can cheat.
1:01:48
>> Loren: We can cheat.
1:01:49
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. Do what you want,
1:01:52
Kendi.
1:01:52
>> Loren: Share something, uh, pastors can do and
1:01:55
then another resource you'd recommend for them.
1:01:59
>> Kinsie Tate: Yeah, I really, um, think that
1:02:02
community is important. I know that, like, our
1:02:05
church is our community, but really finding
1:02:08
a place where you feel like you can connect.
1:02:11
Um, and if you're not finding it for
1:02:14
free, really consider investing in it. Like,
1:02:16
pay for something that feels like it's worth
1:02:19
your time. Um, because, you
1:02:22
know, the. The biggest indicator of what we truly value
1:02:25
is how we spend our time and our money. And so
1:02:28
if you really value that, then maybe
1:02:31
it's worth finding something,
1:02:34
um, or, you know, asking your middle judicatories or
1:02:37
finding maybe even your church, like, hey, can you help me pay for
1:02:40
this? So I think finding a
1:02:43
good group, a cohort, even if you
1:02:46
have to pay for it to start out with, is worth the time
1:02:48
and investment. Um, and as far
1:02:51
as, like, a takeaway,
1:02:55
I agree with Martha. Like, physical
1:02:57
movement, I think we underestimate that because of
1:03:00
diet culture. We really have put it in this weight loss
1:03:03
category, but it's not. It is so
1:03:06
important for our just physical,
1:03:09
mental, even spiritual wellbeing. I mean, if you think
1:03:11
about, like, how we get tied up in knots
1:03:14
and how, um, like my best friend can
1:03:17
always tell is, like, you're pacing, aren't you? And I'm like, I am because I'm,
1:03:20
like, talking to her and I'm pacing around the room. And. And
1:03:23
it's just, like, helps me move through either what I'm
1:03:26
feeling or thinking about.
1:03:29
And so really shifting
1:03:31
movement into a category
1:03:34
that's just as important as what we eat. Um,
1:03:37
so that's kind of a very practical thing of.
1:03:40
It's not exercise, but I just need to move
1:03:43
my body because we spend so much time sitting and being
1:03:46
sedentary, um, that, like, if you're feeling down
1:03:49
or even if you're feeling tired, it may be that you actually need
1:03:52
to get up and walk around and move your body rather than
1:03:55
taking a nap. So that's what I would say.
1:03:57
Practicing.
1:03:58
>> Loren: That's good, Brian.
1:04:00
>> Brian Davis: Yeah. Um, yeah.
1:04:02
Specific practices. Um, I,
1:04:05
I'm, personally, I'm a journaler.
1:04:07
Um, I love. You know, I, I had a
1:04:10
friend tell me, or maybe it was a teacher years, um,
1:04:14
and years ago, that if it's bouncing around in your head,
1:04:16
it owns you. If you can write it down on paper, you own
1:04:19
it. Um, and so, uh,
1:04:22
so, yeah, I'm. I'm a. I. I want to say I'm A voracious
1:04:25
journaler. I'm a voracious proponent of
1:04:28
journaling. I don't always journal as much
1:04:31
as I. As much as I should or as much as I would
1:04:34
like to, but that's a. That's been a big practice
1:04:37
for me. I know it's not for everybody.
1:04:39
Um, I think, um,
1:04:42
things like, uh, the Ignatian, uh,
1:04:44
examine daily, uh, or weekly, um, is
1:04:47
a big, uh, a big help. And I do that along with
1:04:50
my journaling. Um, and so,
1:04:53
uh, yeah, I think just being able to stop
1:04:56
and notice what's been going on around you and in you,
1:04:59
you, um, is, uh, super
1:05:01
helpful. Anything where you can
1:05:04
stop is really
1:05:07
helpful. Um, and so, uh, yeah, those would
1:05:10
be some practices, uh,
1:05:13
uh, that I promote and. Or espouse.
1:05:16
Um, what was the other thing I got so
1:05:19
wrapped up in?
1:05:20
>> Loren: Yeah, I mean, that's good. I mean, just like steps to better Health.
1:05:23
That's great. Yeah. Yeah.
1:05:25
>> Brian Davis: And go for a walk.
1:05:26
>> Loren: Yeah, go for a walk. Let's do this. Now,
1:05:29
um, Martha, I don't want to put you in the spot. Do you want to
1:05:32
plug anything about your project.
1:05:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, beyond the podcast?
1:05:39
Yeah. Um, I mean.
1:05:42
Oh, yeah, that's kind of a different topic. But
1:05:45
I did publish a book. I mean, this is how we met
1:05:48
is. Because I came on the podcast to talk about my previous
1:05:51
book, which is called why Gather, which really
1:05:54
does wrestle with my own,
1:05:57
um, kind of coming to the cusp of
1:06:00
burnout and, um,
1:06:02
with what it means to serve
1:06:05
in, uh,
1:06:08
uh, an institution that has
1:06:11
been in decline for my entire life.
1:06:14
Um, and
1:06:17
how I kind of. How I
1:06:19
squared that circle of, like,
1:06:23
why do I want to. Why do I
1:06:26
not just feel compelled to continue on
1:06:29
in leadership in the church, but
1:06:31
can actually embrace,
1:06:34
um, continuing on in
1:06:37
leadership in the church? And I wrote it primarily during
1:06:40
COVID so there's also a, uh, pandemic
1:06:42
that, um, factors into the book as
1:06:45
well. Um, I think we all got a
1:06:48
chance to really ask whether what we
1:06:51
were doing felt worth it when
1:06:54
suddenly all of our regular patterns fell
1:06:57
apart. So, uh, why Gather?
1:06:59
It is available, you know, most of the
1:07:02
places where you get your books online, probably.
1:07:05
And, um, yeah, I'll wait to say
1:07:08
more about the writing project that I'm working on right now, because
1:07:11
it's. It's a different beast.
1:07:13
>> Loren: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Um, Kinsie go
1:07:16
ahead and talk about your stuff.
1:07:18
>> Kinsie Tate: Yeah, so, um, Restore Clergy. You
1:07:21
can find
1:07:22
that@restoreclergy.com
1:07:24
and what we offer are
1:07:27
cohort programs. So the main one is called The
1:07:30
Restoration Fellowship, and it's for small groups
1:07:33
of clergy, um, and it's an
1:07:36
ecumenical cohort. So it's not just the
1:07:39
same clergy that you always see at
1:07:42
the, you know, at your denominational
1:07:44
gatherings. Um, and the focus
1:07:47
of that is to really help pastors get to the root of
1:07:50
what am I bringing into the situation that may be making it
1:07:53
harder? You know, the, the thing that I was talking about in the
1:07:55
beginning of, you know, we know there are all these
1:07:58
systemic things and when we are in a
1:08:01
really stressed out situation, we can notice how everybody
1:08:04
else is making our lives harder and how it's everybody
1:08:07
else's fault. Um, and what
1:08:10
this program does is really in a gentle way
1:08:13
help you to turn in and look at. But what am I
1:08:16
bringing to the table? What are the
1:08:19
beliefs that I bring that are maybe making me feel more
1:08:21
restricted than I actually am? And how is that
1:08:24
impacting me emotionally and
1:08:27
physically? And then from there we
1:08:30
practice, we embody it, we
1:08:32
experiment. And really getting into that place of,
1:08:35
well, let's try what feels like a safe way to try
1:08:38
this out and see what happens. Let's get some more data.
1:08:41
But let's not get stuck up in our heads of
1:08:44
analysis paralysis. Let's actually, can you
1:08:47
try it out? And then if you can't, why not? Why does
1:08:50
that make sense? Not from a place of shame,
1:08:52
but really a place of curiosity,
1:08:55
um, and growth and understanding.
1:08:58
So that's what the Restoration Fellowship
1:09:01
is. Um, and you know, you're doing this work with
1:09:04
other people so you can build really meaningful,
1:09:06
authentic connections with folks.
1:09:09
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, Brian, uh, talk about green
1:09:12
room leaders.
1:09:14
>> Brian Davis: Yeah, so, um, Green Room
1:09:16
Leaders, uh, we care
1:09:19
a lot about the spiritual
1:09:22
and physical and mental health of, uh, of worship
1:09:25
leaders in particular. Um, and
1:09:27
so, uh, we offer, ah, also a
1:09:30
cohort, um, called, uh, the
1:09:33
Green Room, um, which is a space that we invite worship leaders
1:09:36
into for a year, um, to
1:09:39
ah, work on soul, ah, heart,
1:09:42
mind and strength. So, uh, we start with the
1:09:44
soul, which is not where a lot
1:09:47
of at least worship leader resources. That's
1:09:50
not usually where they start. Um, there's a lot of emphasis
1:09:53
on mind and strength stuff like how do we, how do we plan
1:09:56
and how do we implement that plan? Um,
1:09:58
and uh, we want to start with the soul
1:10:01
and say, like, hey, remember you are a deeply
1:10:04
loved and accepted child of God. Um,
1:10:07
and uh, oh, and remember all those people that you
1:10:10
lead on a weekend, those are all deeply loved
1:10:13
children of God. So what happens if our leadership starts
1:10:15
there? Um, and then how does all of our planning and
1:10:18
implementation flow out of that, um, and
1:10:21
what is the, what is the fruit we get to
1:10:23
um, that we get to rejoice over? So uh,
1:10:26
yeah, that's what we do, uh, with worship leaders,
1:10:29
um, just because we are seeing just a tremendous
1:10:32
amount of burnout and um,
1:10:35
attrition among worship leaders. Um, I
1:10:38
think two to three years is the average tenure of a worship
1:10:40
pastor right now at a church. Um, and
1:10:45
it's not good. Um,
1:10:48
uh, so yeah, we want to see longevity in ministry for
1:10:50
worship leaders. Um, but we also know
1:10:53
like we've got to get out of that sort of chasing
1:10:56
Sunday pattern of the weekend's
1:10:59
the only thing that matters. As long as I can get there and get
1:11:02
through it, then I'm going to be fine. No, you're not going to be
1:11:05
fine. That's going to kill you over time. And so
1:11:08
um, we want to create space for worship leaders to be able
1:11:11
to find some health and some restoration,
1:11:13
uh, and some rest, uh, in their ministry
1:11:16
journey. So. So, uh, you can find out
1:11:18
more@greenroomleaders.com um, you
1:11:21
can sign up for apply uh, for a cohort
1:11:24
now. Um, and uh, we're starting to get
1:11:28
all those people together.
1:11:31
>> Loren: Well this has been a fabulous conversation. We'll make sure we
1:11:34
have links to Martha's book and
1:11:36
Kinsey's Restore Clergy and then Green Room leaders with
1:11:39
Brian. So uh, Martha,
1:11:42
I've done the majority of this leading and
1:11:45
here you want to close out this episode with.
1:11:48
For our listeners or Kinsie and Brian.
1:11:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean I'm super grateful Loren for
1:11:55
you, ah, calling this panel together.
1:11:58
As we kind of said at the outset, I would
1:12:01
say that this is a topic that
1:12:03
bubbles up maybe more than any other topic
1:12:06
across the conversations that we have on future
1:12:09
Christian. And, and
1:12:11
um, I just
1:12:13
think that uh, creating this
1:12:16
kind of honest,
1:12:19
collaborative uh, space to talk about something so important.
1:12:22
I mean I'm quite astonished by what you just
1:12:25
shared Brian, about like two to three year
1:12:28
longevity. Like that's um, like
1:12:31
crazy. Um, but like
1:12:34
it again, it just like points to the
1:12:36
necessity of, of
1:12:39
being able to have these conversations and
1:12:42
really do uh, some
1:12:46
collective um, resourcing.
1:12:48
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like I don't want
1:12:51
to speak for Martha here, but I feel like we need to make this
1:12:54
another standing uh, thing
1:12:56
to come back. Yeah, let's do this,
1:12:59
Martha. We always leave folks with a word of peace.
1:13:03
So we're praying God's peace for you
1:13:06
Brian and Kenzie and
1:13:08
Martha and also for all the
1:13:11
pastors and church leaders listening to this,
1:13:14
so may God's peace be with you.
1:13:24
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:13:26
The Future Christian Podcast is produced produced by Resonate
1:13:29
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1:13:32
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