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Transcript

Our Powers Combined · StartUp Health NOW Podcast

• 0:00
  [ on-hold music] So app is, is designed for physicians as well as the people who are going through the clinical trials, so the patients,
• 0:20
  and that is catered for both opioid and other symptoms. The idea being, can we track and record patient responses for different therapies?
• 0:29
  They can track their mood, they can, they can be reminded for different medications, and if they are... as well as different symptoms, per se.
• 0:36
  [upbeat music] Welcome to StartUp Health NOW, the podcast where we talk about the entrepreneurs shaping the future of health and the health moonshots they're working to achieve.
• 0:51
  I'm Logan Plaster, editor-in-chief at StartUp Health.
• 0:54
  So one of the foundational pillars of the StartUp Health philosophy is radical collaboration, this idea that we're not gonna achieve the great health moonshots of our time, like bringing the cost of care to zero, without seriously breaking down silos and figuring out how to work together.
• 1:09
  That's why I knew I needed to reach out to Jim Iverson and Anupam Khandelwal when they announced the partnership.
• 1:14
  Jim's the CEO of SenJam Pharmaceuticals, a pharma startup working on a pain reliever for opioid withdrawal as well as a COVID treatment.
• 1:23
  Anupam is the CEO of SageSurfer, a startup that built an app for care coordination in the behavioral health space. Both are part of the StartUp Health family, but they're definitely operating in different spheres.
• 1:34
  But after meeting at a StartUp Health event and recognizing a kindred mindset in the other, the two decided to join forces and develop a digital therapeutics app called SymTrack, which just hit the App Store.
• 1:45
  I reached out on Zoom to learn more about how Jim and Anupam have partnered together and aligned their startups in order to bring therapies to market and track results. Hope you enjoy the interview.
• 1:55
  [upbeat music] First, I want you to give our viewers just a, a flyover of what you're building, exactly what SenJam is, what SageSurfer is. So Jim, maybe you could just get us started. Yeah.
• 2:12
  Uh, let me just give an overview of SenJam. So our mission is to improve societal wellbeing by developing therapeutics and accessible to all.
• 2:22
  And, uh, you know, as we talk about what Anupam and SageSurfer, what we came together to work on, one of the products that we're working on is a treatment product for COVID-19.
• 2:33
  And when COVID-19 first, uh, we all became aware of it back in, in late February, early March, um, Anupam and I speak pretty frequently.
• 2:44
  We, we collaborated and we talked about the need of something that we're gonna need down the road for possibly dose, uh, compliance and, and dose tracking.
• 2:54
  And through that collaboration, we came up with what, uh, what we've just developed and what has just been put on, uh, is available on Google, uh, on Android and, and iOS, is, uh, is an app called SymTrack.
• 3:08
  And Anupam, uh, with his experience and on the mental health side, he, he brought a lot to being able to develop this, but then his, his technical team was able to pull it together and, uh, and, and architect what we talked about and ultimately get it approved through, uh, Android and iOS.
• 3:29
  Awesome. Well, we'll get into the app in a second. Anupam, uh, tell us more about SageSurfer, uh, what you've built and kind of where it stands here in twenty twenty. Yep. Um, first of all, I'm glad to be here.
• 3:41
  Um, so SageSurfer mission is how can we make sure the person who is struggling with mental health or addiction, they're not left alone.
• 3:51
  There's a right support available, especially outside the clinical visit, because that's the time when people fall through the crack most of the time.
• 4:00
  And how can technology be enabler in that particular process by bringing the whole team support around it?
• 4:06
  So we have built a whole care coordination and member engagement platform and provide personalized tools to all the different stakeholders involved so that proactive intervention can be possible, AI could be leveraged effectively to figure out where the needs are, how best to address it, and effectively deliver those care at the most appropriate time.
• 4:29
  Got it. So, um, as a third, as, as a third party, uh, you know, as a listener, uh, I could feel as though you're operating in two different spheres. You've got pharma, startup, you've got a care coordination platform.
• 4:43
  Uh, I'm really curious to know kind of how that comes together. How did you initially link up and see that there's overlap in your two missions? Maybe Jim, you could start. Yeah. Yeah.
• 4:55
  So Anupam and I, uh, met, uh, through StartUp Health, uh, both, uh, when the opioid, uh, crisis working group was put together, we, we-- that's-- th-that was the first time that we met.
• 5:08
  And, uh, and we, we, uh, you know, one of the themes of what we were trying to do amongst the health, uh, the tr-health transformers that were in the group was really looking at collaboration, of how we can collaborate amongst ourselves.
• 5:22
  And we developed a, a, um, uh, the continuum of care, which is, uh, uh, a continuum that went from pre-exposure to opioids to, to, uh, outpatient facilities.
• 5:36
  And, and, and we recruited several, uh, StartUp Health companies to participate in that. Uh, tell me more about the opioid crisis working group. I understand it's a, a c-a loose collaboration of c-of startups.
• 5:49
  Um, how did it come together and, and w-what were some of the things that you did together? Yeah. So, uh, it came out of our first, uh, health festival that we went to in two thousand nineteen.
• 6:03
  Um, you know, I guess there was, there was, uh, uh, an earlier beginning, and then I, I attribute, uh, Morrie BeharUh, who at the end of the healthcare, at the h- end of the festival, he pulled a bunch of people together and said, "We really need to get this going."
• 6:20
  And that was kind of the spark that got us, that got us going. And, and right out of the gate, um, you know, it... my interest was to see how we... nobody's as smart as all of us.
• 6:31
  It's just to see how we can collaborate to, to, uh, you know, ship leads, bring an end-to-end solution to, uh, to, to the work that's needed around opioid use disorder.
• 6:42
  Uh, Anupam, what was your experience with that working group? What... kind of how, how did you, uh, meet Cenjam and Jim and just the work that they're doing? Yeah. So I, I think that was an amazing group.
• 6:56
  Um, I think what, uh, what, uh, uh, Jim and Mori had pulled it together, the model, which I think was very, very important as such to figure out where each company fits in and how...
• 7:08
  what are the different opportunities for us to collaborate. So getting a better understanding of, you know, who m- who are we targeting? What, what does our market look like?
• 7:17
  What type of product do we have, or product services do we have? That laid the foundation for collaboration. Got it.
• 7:24
  And a- as we start building it, we started looking at each other products and figure out where the synergies are, where we can talk. Can we bring the other people in for our other deals per se?
• 7:34
  And that's how the journey started. Got it. Okay. Well, let's, let's, uh, jump forward to SymTrack, which is the name of the app that you've developed together, I understand.
• 7:44
  So say, uh, Anupam, this is really your platform expertise married with, um, uh, Cenjam's, you know, new pharmaceutical offering. Is that correct? Is that kind of how this- That is-... this, this synergy comes together?
• 7:58
  That is correct. Correct. That is correct. Okay. Why don't, why don't you walk me through, uh, what the app is? Uh, I know it's just now available on, um, iOS and Android. So, so, so what is it? Yeah.
• 8:12
  So app is, is designed for physicians as well as the people who are going through the clinical trials, so the patients, and that is catered for both opioid and other symptoms.
• 8:24
  The idea being, can we track and record patient responses for different therapies? They can track their mood. They can, they can be reminded for different medications and if they are...
• 8:34
  as well as different symptoms per se.
• 8:37
  Uh, and then collect all this data so that in the right dashboards, so a physician can see, you know, what is working, what not, and c- can they pull them in for different therapies or bring them in for specific changes, uh, or, or make some specific alterations as such if required.
• 8:55
  Got it. Jim, why was it important for you to have a digital therapeutics partnership like this, a platform partnership?
• 9:03
  Well, right when we came out, right out of the gate, uh, when we knew that COVID was gonna be a serious problem, um, you know, I t- I tried to look at w- what, what our short-term needs, uh, from a development perspective, our short-term needs, our medium-term needs, and our, our longer-term needs.
• 9:19
  Uh, you know, because I wanted to make sure that anything that was medium-term to longer term, that we got started on now.
• 9:25
  You know, the worst thing would be is to get to the bridge that you was hoping that was gonna be built and y- when you got there, it wasn't built.
• 9:31
  So, so, um, looking at, um, SymTrack, uh, and right out of the gate, we said, "We're... y- you know, upon moving our product forward and wanting to...
• 9:43
  upon having success and, and wanting to move it into patients, uh, into humans, we're gonna need, um, a tool that we can track by.
• 9:52
  And wouldn't it be great if we develop a tool that we, that is available, that we can turn on w- with a, basically with a switch? And we can use it small group, uh, data tracking or large group data tracking."
• 10:06
  And, uh, that was the, that was the early stage impetus, and we, we s- we did it. It took five months to develop and, uh, and it's done now. Yeah. Very nice.
• 10:17
  So obviously, startups are always looking for, or great partners, um, or great commercialization partners. Um, but they don't, uh, it's... startups don't always link up with other startups. And I...
• 10:29
  so I think that's one of the things that makes your partnership unique, and I wonder what your thoughts are on what the unique opportunities are that come from joining forces with fellow startups.
• 10:41
  One of the things that, um, is a philosophy of mine, um, in life is, it's, I call it givers gain. I believe that, uh, it's important to give before you get.
• 10:51
  And, uh, a lot of times people are l- going into partnerships and seeing what they can get out of it versus what they can give to it.
• 10:58
  And I think right out of the gate, uh, all of us brought this mentality of givers gain. Mm. And, uh, uh, you know, uh, for instance, with SageSurfer, which we're continuing to work on, before we even...
• 11:10
  We, we developed trust, which is so important in a relationship, and this is, this is my speaking, so, uh, Anupam can have his [chuckles] own comments after that.
• 11:20
  But, uh, yeah, but we developed trust right out of the gate through, well, I, I say givers gain, and we, we brought, uh, SageSurfer into a couple, uh, business opportunities that, that are g- are moving forward slowly from, for outpatient clinics, um,
• 11:37
  and outpatient use of, of the Ser- SageSurfer app. And, uh, all of that was done under the, under the, uh, theme of, of the Opioid Crisis Working Group, under, under givers gain.
• 11:50
  We, we, you know, we give something first, and, and then all of it's about, uh, accelerating trust building. And that acceleration of trust building became so important when I had to...
• 12:00
  when I had an ask, and I went back to Anupam and said, "Anupam, I've got this idea. I know it's not what you do in your business, but you're, you've, you've got a platform, you've got developers.
• 12:11
  You know, can you help me?" And, and unwaveringly, you know, he, he jumped right in. Mm.Anupam, what, what, what are your thoughts?
• 12:20
  Uh- What are the, what are the unique opportunities that come from a, a startup partnership like this? Yeah. So I, I just want to build on what just- Jim just said.
• 12:28
  I think that's very critical of the foundation for a good partnership, is the trust.
• 12:34
  Um, I think as we start talking about it, you know, little bit more detail with Jim, what his vision was, what he's really trying to do, and then it became more vivid when we started getting into the COVID where everything became, um...
• 12:49
  That can we leverage our technology effectively, and can we serve people, and are we serving with the same mission in mind? Mm. And I think there was so much alignment in so many different ways,
• 13:04
  that became a no-brainer for us to partner. Um, now from the opportunity perspective, I see multiple of them, right? Uh, from various different aspects of it working together.
• 13:16
  One is this tool is available now, so that CenJim for other trials and other stuff, that could be made available.
• 13:23
  And second is we can go together to other treatment centers and other opioid, you know, facilities per se, as a joint offering to tell them, you know, we have a particular mechanism available.
• 13:36
  You know, this is a particular pharma which actually works. We have data behind it. This is what the data is. If you want to do a trial, we can easily do it and get you up and running in few minutes. Mm.
• 13:47
  And that changes the whole paradigm and whole planning from their perspective. That's what I'm seeing from a long-term vision perspective, that we're not just talking, but we just will be able to deliver it.
• 13:58
  Uh, and we will be able to, you know, get it up and running quickly and get the results they're looking. Interesting. Where do you envision this going if you look at SimTrack in j- uh, in...
• 14:09
  Specifically in your collaboration more generally, um, six months, a year down the road, where do you hope to take this? Maybe Anupam, maybe you can start. Yeah.
• 14:19
  From a collaboration perspective, a- as I, I was alluding it to earlier, we want to use it for other trials as well, 'cause now the product is up and running. It has customizable, it can get the...
• 14:32
  It can record the compliance, get all the feedback, people can see the dashboards, get the results, what they're looking for. And it's very customizable, so easily some tweaks can easily be done.
• 14:42
  So the hope is that we can help, uh, you know, in partnership with CenJim and others on the pharma side as an extension to that product. And then later on, we have stuff on the collaboration side, right?
• 14:55
  Care coordination side and the member engagement side. So it's not only just about as a first step, I consider that this is a version one of the collaboration.
• 15:06
  The second version would be, how can we ensure that for long-term trials, right? For long-running trials, can we use the member engagement effectively- Mm... in order to drive better compliance?
• 15:19
  So it's not just a six months or, you know, it's not just a one we- one month or two months, but if it's a six months, the data which we can get, I think that would be mostly powerful and will really help in any clinical trials.
• 15:32
  Jim, where do you want this partnership to be a year from now? Um, well, I want to continue to support what Anupam's doing in SafeSurfer.
• 15:41
  I, I think that he's going after a, a, a tremendous n- niche with his base business.
• 15:47
  As it relates to, to, uh, SimTrack and, and furthering development, to, to know that I have an extension arm, uh, into Anupam and, you know, [chuckles] sometimes we talk twenty-four hours a day.
• 16:00
  Um, it, it, you know, that, you know, that brings me a lot of comfort that, that I... With that when needed, um, on the next... You know, and I'm thinking more shorter term now whether...
• 16:11
  Because we don't know whether we'll move our, our, uh, treatment product into, into animal study or into humans. If it goes into humans, it might be through emergency use authorization and...
• 16:22
  But when we need the app, th- we're gonna need it. And, uh, and I, and I, I agree, uh, and support also what Anupam is saying is that, um, you know, longer term, uh, y- you know, we...
• 16:34
  This app can also be used for our opioid, uh, use disorder product and, and, um, that, you know, the, the, the importance of getting early stage data, you know, with, with our, our business model of repurposing therapeutics, uh, we, we are able to take drugs.
• 16:52
  A, a doctor, you know, a doctor has gotten in touch with us wanting to use our opioid withdrawal product off use. Mm. And, uh, he ap- he approached us.
• 17:02
  We could do that, but the only way that we would wanna do that is to be able to collect the data, because that data will help us with grants, that data will help us with the FDA, that data will help us with all the processes that we have to, that we need to do to advance our drugs.
• 17:16
  Jim, you brought up a really wonderful point about the importance of just building trust in, uh, collaborations and, uh, how the, how foundational that is to, to this collaboration.
• 17:28
  We're in an unusual time, uh, where everyone is working from home and everything's gone virtual. You had the benefit of meeting at the StartUp Health Festival, and the Opioid Crisis Working Group met physically.
• 17:41
  You said Mori Bar grabbed you and, you know, you talked about, "Hey, we gotta get something going." Um, what are some of your thoughts, Jim, on collaborations in, um, i- in the COVID era, building trust virtually?
• 17:57
  Well, I, um, you know, I, I think the elements are still the same as in person.
• 18:03
  Um, to me, like, often people ask me about leadership and, and how can I be a better leader, and I, I tell them that, "You know, I'm gonna tell you four things, and if you just follow these four things, you're, y- you know, you're on your way to leadership."
• 18:17
  And, uh, and I say, "Listen closely." I say, "Here they are. Do what you say. Complete what you start.Show up on time, and say please and thank you. And, uh, you know, those four things are, are
• 18:30
  paramount to trust building.
• 18:32
  And if you breach those, um, you know, especially, you know, if you don't do what you say or you don't complete what you start or you don't show up on time, um, you know, then, you know, there's a, you know, check mark that goes against it.
• 18:46
  And the, the beauty about the Opioid Crisis Working Group, we s- right out of the gate we started, we were virtual. I mean, we had people all over the country. And, uh, and we, we only had a small brief...
• 18:58
  StartUp Health brought us together, but, but, you know, we tr- we ran, we did some exercises, uh, via Zoom for trust building.
• 19:07
  We, we quickly realized who wanted to be involved and who didn't want to be involved, and we didn't, we didn't cater to those who didn't wanna be involved.
• 19:14
  We catered to those who wanted to be involved, those who showed up. You know, we, we, we, uh, we did a lot of exercises together.
• 19:23
  We developed a lot of col- collaborative tools together, and that's, that all led to the, to, to the building of trust. Anupam, your thoughts? Uh, I, I think I echo some of the statements which Jim just made.
• 19:38
  Um, virtual has changed the world, but it has given us additional opportunities as well. Uh, in-person meeting you can have, but it's much easier to have virtual meeting. Um, so you're more accessible.
• 19:57
  So it all depends on the person and the organization, how they want to leverage it. Hmm. Like what Jim was saying, that do you do what you say? Uh, that has not changed.
• 20:09
  If that's your mantra or that's your, you know, know-how principle, then nothing has changed in that world. Of course, the environment has changed.
• 20:20
  You may be, uh, working from home or may be working from somewhere else, but the person is still the person, right? So I believe that it has given in some cases more opportunities for you to connect,
• 20:32
  uh, but you have to leverage it properly.
• 20:37
  You know, I, I'm curious what you think are the opportunities here, uh, I mean, this just made me think about the opportunities for, for global health and to really think beyond one's borders when you're, when you're developing collaborations virtually.
• 20:51
  Is that something that you've thought of with SageSurfer or with this collaboration? Um, I think it was, for me it was natural with the collaboration with SageSurfer, but I can tell you through the...
• 21:04
  and through the experience that we had, and we've shared, um, in previous conversations about, uh, you know, this has been hands across the world- Hmm... with the COVID efforts that we've had.
• 21:16
  Um, I've had, I've had access to everybody, and everybody wanted to share and collaborate.
• 21:22
  And, uh, and we've entered partnerships with people, and we've sha- we've continued to do co-development and sharing, and it's all, it's all based around trust.
• 21:31
  It's all, it's, you know, it, you know, it's all in an, in an effort to support one another.
• 21:37
  And, uh, you know, we, we have a call, uh, you know, on tomorrow afternoon, or actually tomorrow night with Singapore, and it's another collaboration that came out with some of our drug development. Uh, and it just...
• 21:52
  You know, dur- there was a period in March and April that we were on the phone with, with India, Australia, Europe, uh, and Japan [laughs] all in the same day with, with, uh, scientists, and, and, you know, people sharing data.
• 22:08
  You know, this is, this is a world pandemic, and, uh, there's, there's no mine and ours. There's, you know, it, it's all ours. It's, there's... Nobody's, nobody's holding stuff tight to their chest,
• 22:21
  or at least that's been my experience. Yeah. Anupam, what, what are your thoughts in terms of SageSurfer as a global platform, uh, and that this moment is kind of opening us up to, to more global collaborations?
• 22:36
  Uh, we are seeing the similar thing. It's already started in SageSurfer journey. Um, so I, I can tell you about two countries where we are looking at, but through our partners, because we are big partner friendly.
• 22:49
  That's, that's what we believe in. Uh, the stuff is happening in India as we speak. Uh, the idea being again with the same mission alignment, 'cause that's the biggest thing.
• 22:59
  Are they aligned what we are trying to do, and does it make sense for us, right, in this, and take those necessary steps?
• 23:06
  And then the s- same thing, we are initially discussing with somebody up in Australia, but very early as such, but similar thing.
• 23:14
  So it is opening up because the problems are not necessarily geographical in some cases, uh, they are across, and COVID has made that bit clearly vivid. You know, COVID is not an US thing or, or a China or anywhere else.
• 23:28
  It is across the globe, and everybody's impacted.
• 23:31
  And in the behavioral health world, everybody's impacted, you know, with anxiety levels skyrocketing or crisis calls, you know, going sky the roof, uh, on the roof, right? So, so I think it is, it is pretty bad.
• 23:42
  So I think any solution which can help the community, uh, would, would be greatly appreciated. That's awesome. I think that's a good place to, to wrap it up.
• 23:53
  I just couldn't appreciate more the way that the two of you are, are modeling that kind of radical collaboration, which really is, uh, more unusual in the market than it should be.
• 24:04
  Um, you don't always see people, uh, reaching out to, to people in their own market, trying to build that trust and a- and build, and building something. What was your, what was your phrase, Jim?
• 24:15
  The, uh, building as you serve, or what was it? Giver- givers gain. Givers gain. Uh, that sort of servant leadership.
• 24:22
  So really appreciate you modeling that for, for other entrepreneurs and, and also just building a product that, that the world needs. Um, and it's really exciting.
• 24:33
  Before we stop, how, uh, what's the best way for people to reach out to you and collaborate with you, particularly with SimTrack?So for us, for SymTrack perspective, of course, we are looking at, uh, you know, organizations who want to do clinical trials together with CenGen, specifically on different, uh, different items.
• 24:54
  And then you can-- they can reach out to us to carry it out with collecting different types of data sets and others. Uh, and other, other pharmaceutical companies, right?
• 25:02
  A small size, early stage who we can work and partner with. Uh, the best way to reach out to us would be support@safesurfer.com and, uh, that we can route it between us, right?
• 25:14
  Uh, between, uh, me and Jen, uh, to, to ensure that they get timely, timely response. Who are you hoping, who are you hoping will download the app? Well, that's, uh, I, I was just gonna...
• 25:24
  I wanted Anupama to, uh, to, you know, close out. Um, you know, are we-- the other-- Answering your question, the other, um, way to, to, is to download the app. So SymTrack is available on, on, uh, i-iOS and Android.
• 25:41
  Uh, u-upon going on that, uh, you can fill out your name and, and provide some information about yourself, and then you, you select why you're interested in it.
• 25:51
  And one of the selection, uh, options are, "I'm interested in research." Yeah.
• 25:56
  And, uh, and then we'll, we will be storing that, so when we are ready, we will have a populated list of people who wanna participate in our, in our research. They could be directly or indirectly involved in it.
• 26:08
  And, uh, and then we can just turn on the switch at that point, and they could be engaged.
• 26:13
  Gentlemen, thank you so much for taking the time to get me up to speed, get us up to speed for this Health Innovation Update, and just for the work that you continue to do to, um, improve people's health and wellbeing.
• 26:24
  So thank you. [upbeat music] StartUp Health invests in health transformers from around the world who are committed to achieving audacious health moonshots.
• 26:39
  If you wanna learn how you can join this community of entrepreneurs, or if you wanna connect with one of our three hundred and thirty companies, go to startuphealth.com. Thanks for listening to StartUp Health NOW.
• 26:49
  We'll be back next week. [upbeat music]