Latest / The Trauma Therapist / The Guest Host Series. Christina P. Kantzavelos, LCSW interviews Destiny Winters: Treating Chronic Illness Mental Health Symptoms

Transcript

The Guest Host Series. Christina P. Kantzavelos, LCSW interviews Destiny Winters: Treating Chronic Illness Mental Health Symptoms · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
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Speaker 1: Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
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Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
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Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
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Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
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Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
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Speaker 2: Hello. Hey, I am so happy to have you on.
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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm excited to be here.
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Speaker 2: Thank you.
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Speaker 4: And as we were discussing right before we hit record,
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Speaker 4: I am thrilled to have more representation of chronic illness
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Speaker 4: therapists on this.
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Speaker 2: Podcast because I think thus far I've.
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Speaker 4: Been the only one, and there's more than one of
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Speaker 4: us right in this realm, there's quite a few. And
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Speaker 4: you actually kind of have a membership and you have
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Speaker 4: a database, and we're going to talk about that and
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Speaker 4: get into it. You kind of become the chronic illness
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Speaker 4: therapist resource hub in essence. So I say, tell us,
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Speaker 4: tell us yeah often kind of how how you got here?
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Speaker 3: Yes? So in that's twenty nineteen, I was still in
1:12
Speaker 3: grad school. I was trying to figure out like what
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Speaker 3: I wanted to do. I had some experience with like marketing,
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Speaker 3: and understanding that finding a niche was kind of important
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Speaker 3: as far as to help people kind of understand who
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Speaker 3: you are. And I got my own weird diagnosis of
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Speaker 3: lime disease. Really, you know, that's a kind of we
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Speaker 3: you and I kind of know much a lot about
1:36
Speaker 3: lime and the controversial kind of diagnosis that it is.
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Speaker 3: But I basically found myself going into support groups online
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Speaker 3: for lime disease, and I like those support groups made
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Speaker 3: me feel like I was going to die in like
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Speaker 3: a week. I mean everything was like worst case scenario
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Speaker 3: and like all this really really like horrible stuff and
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Speaker 3: filled with a lot of like uh, very expensive treatments
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Speaker 3: that like basically didn't really even work anyway. And so
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Speaker 3: I in that moment, like I left all those groups
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Speaker 3: after like a week of being in them. I was like,
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Speaker 3: this is not good, this is not right, And why
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Speaker 3: aren't there any therapists online? Like at that time, they're
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Speaker 3: just therapists and medical professionals, even though this was just
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Speaker 3: five six years ago. We're not online our ethics, our boards,
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Speaker 3: our licenses, Like we have a lot of fear around
2:28
Speaker 3: saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing and
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Speaker 3: then losing our license. It's a very real, real fear
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Speaker 3: or like saying something and then it's misconstrued as medical
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Speaker 3: advice and then getting So I found myself in this
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Speaker 3: world trying to figure out what I wanted to do,
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Speaker 3: what I didn't want to do. I was struggling with
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Speaker 3: my own health issues, figuring out how to be a therapist.
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Speaker 3: But then also like, but people are really struggling with
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Speaker 3: their health, their physical health, and there's not a whole
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Speaker 3: lot of answers anywhere, really, like in Western med or
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Speaker 3: in Eastern like philosophies and modalities, like there's there's a
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Speaker 3: lot of answers, and then there's no answers. So that
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Speaker 3: was what I found myself struggling with, and I knew
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Speaker 3: that other people were struggling with this as well too,
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Speaker 3: So I really took on that role of like, Okay,
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Speaker 3: we need to be online. I don't know yet what
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Speaker 3: all of the you know, all of my ethical codes
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Speaker 3: and mandates and what my abilities are yet to say
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Speaker 3: certain things online given my license, But I'm going to
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Speaker 3: figure that out. And that's just always been at the forefront,
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Speaker 3: Like even before I finished grad school, I always knew
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Speaker 3: that was where I wanted to spend a lot of
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Speaker 3: my time and effort and energy as far as what
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Speaker 3: my I guess to public service work kind of looked like.
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Speaker 3: So that was another part of it. Like I knew
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Speaker 3: I didn't want to I knew I didn't have the
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Speaker 3: energy to be working in agency work that had you
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Speaker 3: working forty fifty sixty hours week for very very very
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Speaker 3: low pay, and I knew that my body wasn't going
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Speaker 3: to be able to handle that. So I this was
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Speaker 3: my way of like, Okay, you know, start a podcast,
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Speaker 3: be online. This is stuff that I can do for
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Speaker 3: free that hopefully touches some people somewhere and is my small,
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Speaker 3: small way of giving back. So within that, yeah, I
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Speaker 3: have a membership for for people with chronic pain and
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Speaker 3: chronic illness. It's more of like a support group kind
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Speaker 3: of online membership thing. But then for therapists, I also
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Speaker 3: I have a clinical consult group, a business console group.
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Speaker 3: Every single month, I have a directory on my website
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Speaker 3: so that people can go and find therapists who are
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Speaker 3: licensed in their state, who most of us have our
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Speaker 3: own lived experience with chronic pain and chronic illness, and
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Speaker 3: we are also doing this work where we specialize in
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Speaker 3: working with clients with chronic pain and chronic illness because again,
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Speaker 3: like we we have that experience of both being the
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Speaker 3: professional and also being the patient.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, both sides, I would say, both sides of the couch.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 4: It's that an important factor of lived experience where.
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Speaker 2: It's like, ah, this person gets it.
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Speaker 4: I don't have to give subtitles to that, you know,
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Speaker 4: because it is so specific, it is so niche, and
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Speaker 4: it's something you don't quite understand unless you yourself have
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Speaker 4: the experience or someone very close to you. And I'm
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Speaker 4: going to bounce a little bit, but I do want
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Speaker 4: to touch on the groups real quick, because I think
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Speaker 4: that's an important topic. And I personally encourage anyone I
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Speaker 4: work with to get off the chronic illness groups because
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Speaker 4: I feel that they're more problem focused than solution focused,
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Speaker 4: and often people leave feeling like simultaneously simultaneously, they feel
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Speaker 4: validated because they're now not the only ones experiencing this
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Speaker 4: symptom or this new diagnoses, but also they feel quite
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Speaker 4: disregulated because they're like, I'm not getting you know what,
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Speaker 4: I didn't get a solution from this, and like you said,
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Speaker 4: like it feels like I'm going to die in a week.
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Speaker 2: With what I just read and I experienced this myself.
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Speaker 4: I mean, how do you can you say anything else
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Speaker 4: to that and what you may suggest doing instead?
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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I mean, first I always validate. I agree,
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Speaker 3: Like I always tell clients, like, just just leave the groups.
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Speaker 3: They're not there's nothing in there at this point, especially
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Speaker 3: when they've already been in there for months or sometimes years.
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Speaker 3: It's like you already know and have seen and read
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Speaker 3: everything that you are going to get from that group.
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Speaker 3: So first I want to validate that. Sometimes we do
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Speaker 3: learn something from somebody posting this thing about that thing,
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Speaker 3: and you know, now we have our answer. Yes, sometimes
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Speaker 3: that happens, but the hope for that to keep happening,
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Speaker 3: like as if you were going to find every single
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Speaker 3: answer in these groups, is more of like this.
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Speaker 2: This.
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Speaker 3: It's like being on social media with each time that
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Speaker 3: you scroll through to the next thing, there's this kind
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Speaker 3: of like dopamine hit of ooh, what's next, Ooh, what's next? Ooh,
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Speaker 3: what's next? And the groups are very much like that.
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Speaker 3: It's like, oh, well, what new thing can I learn today?
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Speaker 3: But meanwhile, a lot of these new things are like
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Speaker 3: wild goose chases. So I'm a big, big fan of
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Speaker 3: being in a support group as local as possible or
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Speaker 3: as as specific as possible. A lot of the big foundations,
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Speaker 3: like the Arthritis Foundation, has a ton of groups all
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Speaker 3: over the country. They have local groups, they have groups
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Speaker 3: for like juvenile arthritis versus storiatic arthritis. Like some of
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Speaker 3: these bigger kind of national organizations, especially in the US,
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Speaker 3: have a lot of support groups, and I'm a big
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Speaker 3: fan of joining those the one that resonates or is
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Speaker 3: related to your specific condition. For some of the things
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Speaker 3: that are a little bit harder, like lime disease or
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Speaker 3: fibromyologia or some of these things that just I mean
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Speaker 3: fiber mile just get more and more science behind it.
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Speaker 3: But some of the things that don't have a lot
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Speaker 3: of like medical knowledge behind it. You just have to
8:07
Speaker 3: be really careful with who you are allowing to be
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Speaker 3: your group facilitator. Yeah, because again there's just a lot
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Speaker 3: of and it's well meaning, well meaning people, but there's
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Speaker 3: a lot of wild goose chases that we go down
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Speaker 3: that are more harmful than helpful.
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Speaker 4: I completely agree, and I want to touch on that
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Speaker 4: wild goose chase often is what's feeding into that fight
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Speaker 4: or flight, right where we're just chasing and searching for,
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Speaker 4: you know, what could be the next the next thing
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Speaker 4: to save us, to.
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Speaker 2: Help us naturally.
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Speaker 4: Naturally I want to again validate that as well, but
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Speaker 4: also it keeps us in that in that state. And
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Speaker 4: it's so important for us to get to a more
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Speaker 4: flexible nervous system right where we can feel as safe
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Speaker 4: as we possibly can in our body at this at
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Speaker 4: this time. And I mean there's so many factors that
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Speaker 4: including and not limit to finding the right providers to
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Speaker 4: support you. And in this case, a facilitator and I
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Speaker 4: co facilitate a Lime circle called the Empowerment Circle that
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Speaker 4: occurs once a month through Bay Area Lime Foundation in
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Speaker 4: San Diego Lime Association. And what I love about it
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Speaker 4: is that it's really it feels very solution focused in
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Speaker 4: the sense of, like we talk about what is working
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Speaker 4: for folks at this moment in time.
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Speaker 2: And what I suggest is that you, you know, if.
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Speaker 4: You're looking at a group, maybe try it out once
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Speaker 4: or twice and just see how you're nervous.
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Speaker 2: I mean, I go, I do this for everything.
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Speaker 4: I'm like, check how your nervous system feels after you
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Speaker 4: do this, Like you will know do I feel do
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Speaker 4: I feel more regulated, more calm after attending this, this group,
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Speaker 4: the circle, seeing this therapist, seeing this provider, or less.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean this is the part of the problem, right,
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Speaker 3: especially with these conditions that don't have a lot of
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Speaker 3: I was about to say with line, but it's not.
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Speaker 3: I don't think it's that it's line specifically. I think
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Speaker 3: that it's that these are conditions that don't have a
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Speaker 3: lot of medical answers, and that fuels that fight or flight,
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Speaker 3: like you said, And so you can get stuck and
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Speaker 3: sometimes you're in this group and it doesn't feel good,
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Speaker 3: but you're already used to being in fighter flight. Nothing
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Speaker 3: feels good anyway, and you don't have answers from anyone anywhere.
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Speaker 3: So when you are like that lost, when you at
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Speaker 3: the very beginning, when you're that that lost, it can
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Speaker 3: be really difficult to know if a if a environment
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Speaker 3: is right or wrong for you. But that's I think
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Speaker 3: just it's just a part of the journey and you
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Speaker 3: just have to you have to keep asking yourself. You
10:36
Speaker 3: have to keep being open to change, open to kind
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Speaker 3: of new information, and asking yourself that question over and
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Speaker 3: over and over again. It's not a one and done
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Speaker 3: conversation like every day asking yourself what will feel good
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Speaker 3: for me today? What will feel good for me today,
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Speaker 3: and letting yourself have a different answer every day.
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Speaker 2: Amen.
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Speaker 4: Amen to that, because the only constant is change and
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Speaker 4: and we're healing from something very complex.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, on all levels.
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Speaker 4: So speaking of healing, I'd love to talk about what
11:10
Speaker 4: modalities yeah, with your clients.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. My main modality is always going to
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Speaker 3: be acceptance in commitment therapy. That's really where I started
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Speaker 3: back in undergrad and I love acceptance in commitment therapy
11:25
Speaker 3: because it's despite what the name implies, that's kind of
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Speaker 3: accepting what is a lot of people hear that and
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Speaker 3: think that it means like just tolerating the bad things
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Speaker 3: and just accepting that it's never going to change. That's
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Speaker 3: not what that means at all. It's just allowing what
11:41
Speaker 3: is happening in this moment to be happening in this moment,
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Speaker 3: and when that moment changes, then we allow the next
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Speaker 3: moment to happen. And you have agency and you have
11:51
Speaker 3: control over like influencing each of these moments. But if
11:57
Speaker 3: you don't understand what your values are, if you don't
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Speaker 3: understand what's important to you. If you don't understand what
12:04
Speaker 3: activates or deactivates your nervous system, and that's where some
12:07
Speaker 3: of the sematic experiencing that I practice comes in. Then
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Speaker 3: you don't know how to influence those moments, and it
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Speaker 3: does feel like life is just happening to you. So
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Speaker 3: acceptance and commitment therapy I think gives a really good
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Speaker 3: balance between life is going to happen to you and
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Speaker 3: you can't always change every outcome or everything that happens
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Speaker 3: to you. It's this fine balance between finding agency but
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Speaker 3: also recognizing that you just cannot control every aspect of it.
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Speaker 3: And then sematic experiencing, which I think for me, is
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Speaker 3: really just a way of being in tune with your
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Speaker 3: body on a very accurate level. You know, we often
12:47
Speaker 3: talk about things like your intuition and listening to your body,
12:51
Speaker 3: and you can listen to your body, but if you
12:53
Speaker 3: don't really understand like the different sleep cues or your
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Speaker 3: hunger cues, or your fearful cue versus your excitement cues,
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Speaker 3: like the things that are happening in your body when
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Speaker 3: you have different states, it's very easy to confuse like
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Speaker 3: tired and hungry or excitement and fear and it's only
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Speaker 3: through an intentional practice of really paying attention to your
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Speaker 3: body and being curious. And that's where I think again,
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Speaker 3: somatic experiencing does a really good job at helping us
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Speaker 3: do Then we can actually learn, like what does it
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Speaker 3: mean to be scared versus like again excited And this
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Speaker 3: is something that I can go and fall, this is
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Speaker 3: something this is a path I can follow versus this
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Speaker 3: is the path I should stay away from.
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Speaker 4: Mm hmm mm hmmm hmm exactly, Like there's there's something
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Speaker 4: right so liberating in radically accepting where we are at
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Speaker 4: this present moment and just really surrendering to it and
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Speaker 4: still having hope, right, having space for something to shift
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Speaker 4: or to change and all so, and you can speak
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Speaker 4: to this right specifically.
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Speaker 2: To chronic illness, Like I know, I was.
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Speaker 4: So afraid to be in my body for such a
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Speaker 4: long time pretty much my entire my entire life. I've
14:11
Speaker 4: had symptoms since infancy. It didn't feel safe to be
14:14
Speaker 4: in my body. So somatic experiencing or anything somatic and
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Speaker 4: like trauma slash somatic and formed allows you to kind
14:22
Speaker 4: of tiptoe back into your body, especially as someone who's
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Speaker 4: so afraid of it and perhaps you can speak to
14:28
Speaker 4: that and how that's helped your clients.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I think you know, there's this
14:34
Speaker 3: concept in somatic experiencing called discharge, and it's where you know,
14:39
Speaker 3: you kind of have and I sometimes this stuff sounds
14:43
Speaker 3: more mystical than it needs to, but you know it,
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Speaker 3: it doesn't. It's not a big mystery. I think it's
14:49
Speaker 3: just this stuff can happen through acceptance work as well.
14:53
Speaker 3: But I'm going to use some of the somatic experiencing language.
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Speaker 3: There's this concept of discharge where when you're feeling a
14:59
Speaker 3: thing like let's say you're feling scared and there's like
15:02
Speaker 3: a shakiness. You know, we all kind of if you're nervous,
15:04
Speaker 3: sometimes we feel shaky and that shaking we can kind
15:09
Speaker 3: of like let it just kind of kind of shake
15:11
Speaker 3: out of our arms and then it's gone. And again
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Speaker 3: I think that that's just like a normal, natural human response.
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Speaker 3: But sometimes especially when you have history of trauma, you're
15:23
Speaker 3: so used to bracing, like squeezing your muscles tight, holding
15:26
Speaker 3: your breath tight, almost like you just don't want to
15:30
Speaker 3: be seen, you don't want to be heard, and that's
15:31
Speaker 3: a very protective trauma response. That kept you safe as
15:35
Speaker 3: a kid, and then it becomes really maladaptive later you know,
15:39
Speaker 3: your body only has so much, like so much it
15:43
Speaker 3: can it can brace before it just starts not being
15:46
Speaker 3: able to anymore. I remember one of like a very
15:50
Speaker 3: defining Sometimes this stuff just doesn't make sense until you
15:53
Speaker 3: kind of have practiced it for a little while. And
15:55
Speaker 3: I remember a very defining moment. I was driving and
15:58
Speaker 3: I used to really struggle with like being angry on
16:01
Speaker 3: the road and there was somebody that like cut me off,
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Speaker 3: and I remember it feeling really really angry, and I
16:06
Speaker 3: was shaking because I was anxious, and I remember thinking like, okay,
16:10
Speaker 3: just let it, just let it go, like let it
16:12
Speaker 3: shake out, let it roll out. And when the shaking stopped,
16:17
Speaker 3: it felt much more like resolved rather than I had
16:20
Speaker 3: just like made it stop and suppressed it into my body.
16:24
Speaker 3: And now I just have this like now I'm just
16:26
Speaker 3: holding onto this tension all day. It was literally like
16:30
Speaker 3: just shake it out of your arms and just let
16:32
Speaker 3: it go. And it's such a It's again, I don't
16:35
Speaker 3: think somatic experiencing is this magical kind of uh thing.
16:39
Speaker 3: I just think that it gives you skills that a
16:41
Speaker 3: lot of us didn't learn when you live with a
16:44
Speaker 3: chronic illness, a lot of us do have trauma.
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Speaker 2: You know.
16:47
Speaker 3: I think we all know the ACES study by now,
16:49
Speaker 3: and I think it just shows that there's a, you know,
16:52
Speaker 3: such a strong correlation between trauma and having it and
16:56
Speaker 3: getting or having chronic illnesses, and so there is just
17:00
Speaker 3: a really big overlap. Like a lot of us did
17:02
Speaker 3: not learn how to let things go or how to
17:07
Speaker 3: feel things in our body because the people around us
17:10
Speaker 3: didn't have those skills. Our parents, our caregivers, our teachers,
17:13
Speaker 3: you know, we were taught to you can only go
17:16
Speaker 3: to the bathroom when the bell rings, and you like
17:18
Speaker 3: can only eat when the bell rings, and you better
17:20
Speaker 3: not be hungry you or have to go in between,
17:23
Speaker 3: like it's everything not forbid.
17:24
Speaker 4: Your body functions between yeah, like between those times exactly.
17:30
Speaker 3: So, you know, I think it's important to note that
17:32
Speaker 3: trauma has these effects, but also so does just like
17:36
Speaker 3: normal everyday living in this society could do the same
17:39
Speaker 3: thing to.
17:40
Speaker 2: You one hundred one hundred percent.
17:43
Speaker 4: And the ACE to me is pretty limited, right, I
17:47
Speaker 4: don't think it even includes all of the traumas a
17:50
Speaker 4: person can fit. Big ta traumas I'm saying, why aren't
17:53
Speaker 4: car accidents.
17:54
Speaker 2: Listed like that's like always one?
17:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then also the little TA traumas, right, the
18:00
Speaker 4: little T traumas.
18:01
Speaker 2: Add up, I didn't make the sports team.
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Speaker 4: I was invited to this birthday party to a child
18:06
Speaker 4: that can feel like life literally life or death. Right, you,
18:10
Speaker 4: you were invited into into the pack, so exact survival
18:14
Speaker 4: gets triggered. So here we are like both reflecting our
18:19
Speaker 4: parents' nervous systems.
18:21
Speaker 2: So if they don't have a way to to.
18:23
Speaker 4: Self regulate or co regulate with you like that there,
18:27
Speaker 4: that in itself is really challenging and then also properly
18:31
Speaker 4: irrigating the emotions as I call it, like emoting like
18:34
Speaker 4: really feeling to heal. So I think that somatic experiencing,
18:39
Speaker 4: constructed awareness, you know, ef T tapping like these are
18:45
Speaker 4: such beautiful tools and resources to allow us to be
18:49
Speaker 4: with our body and our feelings and to feel it
18:52
Speaker 4: to heal it.
18:53
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And of course you know the relationship which
18:56
Speaker 3: we all we kind of say it, but I think
18:58
Speaker 3: we don't sometimes give it as much credit as it
19:01
Speaker 3: really deserves. But for the therapist to be able to
19:03
Speaker 3: sit there and hold strong and still and solid because
19:08
Speaker 3: they've done their own work that when you, as a
19:11
Speaker 3: client are kind of shaking in front of them, it
19:14
Speaker 3: does not also rattle the therapist. The therapist is like,
19:17
Speaker 3: I've got this, like we can, we can. I can
19:20
Speaker 3: sit here and be that that coregulator because I can
19:23
Speaker 3: be calm through this, not because I'm not. I don't
19:27
Speaker 3: care what you're going through. And therefore that you know
19:28
Speaker 3: I'm not affected. No, I can absolutely feel it, and
19:31
Speaker 3: I'm affected by it, but I'm not rattled by it.
19:34
Speaker 3: And that, I think is the the that is what
19:37
Speaker 3: makes the therapeutic relationship so healing.
19:41
Speaker 2: Kills chills, kills, chills chills.
19:43
Speaker 4: Yet doctor Gabori matte I saw a video recently where
19:46
Speaker 4: he's like, you know, they've done studies on all these
19:48
Speaker 4: different modalities, but and which one is better?
19:51
Speaker 2: Is it E M d R? Is it somatic experiencing
19:54
Speaker 2: is ABT?
19:55
Speaker 4: And then he's like, ultimately, it's actually the therapeutic alliance.
19:59
Speaker 4: It's it's that coregulation piece. It's that piece of like
20:03
Speaker 4: someone who's present with me and able to contain the space, yeah,
20:08
Speaker 4: allow for all.
20:10
Speaker 2: Things to come up and be processed.
20:13
Speaker 4: And and I think this was an important thing for
20:15
Speaker 4: us to even talk about, like because you know therapists
20:17
Speaker 4: are going to be watching this, listening to this. It's
20:19
Speaker 4: like ensuring that our vessel is as expanded as possible,
20:23
Speaker 4: which means we have to continuously work towards that. That's
20:27
Speaker 4: our due diligence, that's our ethical responsibility.
20:31
Speaker 3: I don't know if you agree, but yeah, no, I
20:33
Speaker 3: absolutely agree. And I think you know that the relationship
20:35
Speaker 3: piece is not just a matter of like do you
20:37
Speaker 3: like your therapist, but it's like do you trust that
20:40
Speaker 3: when they're saying something? You trust their knowledge, you trust
20:44
Speaker 3: their ability to hold like you can see that they're
20:48
Speaker 3: again not rattled, and they think they have places to
20:52
Speaker 3: guide you in. And that's why I think the specialty
20:54
Speaker 3: of chronic illness as a therapist is so important because
20:58
Speaker 3: when you specialize on the so you start to learn
21:01
Speaker 3: a lot about medical resources and navigating insurance and navigating
21:07
Speaker 3: relationships with a chronic illness, Like you learn very specific
21:10
Speaker 3: things that are only specific to living with a chronic illness.
21:14
Speaker 3: And the therapist who specializes in that when you come
21:17
Speaker 3: to them and say, you know, I don't I feel
21:20
Speaker 3: like I feel like my relationship is falling apart because
21:23
Speaker 3: I need so much from my partner and for the
21:27
Speaker 3: therapist to be able to sit there and say, like, one,
21:30
Speaker 3: that is totally normal and valid to feel that way
21:33
Speaker 3: and we actually can absolutely work through this. That that
21:39
Speaker 3: is what most we just it's again, it's not just
21:42
Speaker 3: like liking your therapist, it's also do they have the
21:44
Speaker 3: knowledge and the expertise to be able to help you
21:47
Speaker 3: through that specific problem.
21:49
Speaker 4: A thousand like to just hold that light up for
21:52
Speaker 4: you and guide you because ultimately they're the ones doing.
21:55
Speaker 2: The work, that's the truth. Yeah, yeah, they are. We're
21:58
Speaker 2: just providing the lay.
21:59
Speaker 4: Out, the resources and the tools and the space for
22:03
Speaker 4: that for that to happen.
22:06
Speaker 2: I entirely. I entirely agree with that.
22:09
Speaker 4: And it is it's so funny as a as a
22:12
Speaker 4: chronic illness therapist, whether you want to or not, you
22:14
Speaker 4: become extremely integrated.
22:16
Speaker 2: Like you just said, like I'm not just a therapist.
22:18
Speaker 4: I'm also I'm so much a case manager and a
22:21
Speaker 4: social worker. Like sometimes I'm on the phone helping, you know,
22:24
Speaker 4: with or all kinds of scenarios that because it's it's
22:30
Speaker 4: complex and yeah, it's more than just you know, top therapy.
22:35
Speaker 2: We can't say that it is just it is just that.
22:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I'm doing a CEO over on July ninth,
22:43
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, and it will be talking about ways
22:46
Speaker 3: to collaborate with with other medical professionals. And you know,
22:50
Speaker 3: I think it looks different in private practice versus like
22:53
Speaker 3: working in a hospital system where you're kind of already
22:55
Speaker 3: having these like collaborative care team meetings. But yeah, I'm
23:00
Speaker 3: a big fan of therapists having like a scheduling calendar
23:04
Speaker 3: and really really really taking the time, whether it's private
23:08
Speaker 3: practice and you're getting paid or not getting paid, Like,
23:11
Speaker 3: I just think it's imperative and it's such a good
23:14
Speaker 3: part of care too. Not necessarily you don't always have
23:17
Speaker 3: to be the case manager. There's a lot that goes
23:19
Speaker 3: into case management, but you do have to really connect
23:22
Speaker 3: with your with your clients other medical professionals, whether that's
23:26
Speaker 3: their physical therapist or their medical doctor. You know, it
23:30
Speaker 3: can be hard to get to get in contact with them,
23:32
Speaker 3: but that's where that scheduling calendar really comes in handy
23:35
Speaker 3: and just make it easy for them and get on
23:37
Speaker 3: the phone and figure out what is it that the
23:40
Speaker 3: medical doctor is seeing that they you know, a lot
23:42
Speaker 3: of times too, they'll they'll they think that anxiety is
23:46
Speaker 3: the problem of their their patient. So sometimes patients can
23:51
Speaker 3: even clients can be really nervous to let you talk
23:53
Speaker 3: to their doctor because they don't want that to be confirmed, like, well,
23:57
Speaker 3: they do have anxiety and so that is contributing to
24:00
Speaker 3: the pain. It's like, no, they have anxiety because they
24:03
Speaker 3: don't have answers. They have anxiety because they don't know
24:05
Speaker 3: what's coming next. They have anxiety because this is really
24:08
Speaker 3: expensive and you've given no like you know, trajectory of
24:13
Speaker 3: what this is supposed to look like. So a lot
24:15
Speaker 3: of times it's really advocating for your clients. But also
24:19
Speaker 3: then you gain information from the doctor. It's like, well,
24:22
Speaker 3: you know, I need them to do this and they
24:24
Speaker 3: haven't been able to do that, and so now I
24:26
Speaker 3: can help the client with that, Like what is stopping
24:28
Speaker 3: you from doing what your doctor wants you to do?
24:30
Speaker 3: Is it that you don't trust the treatment or is
24:32
Speaker 3: it that there is some other obstacle in the way
24:35
Speaker 3: that's happening. So there's so much, so much you learn
24:38
Speaker 3: from talking to your to your clients providers.
24:42
Speaker 4: I completely agree with that and for myself, like I
24:46
Speaker 4: allow And I know I've probably mentioned this before, but
24:49
Speaker 4: I don't go to like a fifty minute hour mark
24:51
Speaker 4: like we go until the client feels complete, and that
24:54
Speaker 4: gives us the space, if needed, to contact the provider
24:58
Speaker 4: or to give me space after to talk to the provider,
25:01
Speaker 4: depending if the providers wanting to talk to something. They're
25:03
Speaker 4: not sometimes not, and that's really frustrating. Let's be real
25:07
Speaker 4: about that, because yeah, they're like, they don't they don't
25:11
Speaker 4: see how these things are related, when in fact the
25:14
Speaker 4: mind and the body are not disconnected. They're well but alas,
25:19
Speaker 4: I'm not here to to convince. But it's amazing when
25:23
Speaker 4: they're collaborative because it really creates such magic and for
25:28
Speaker 4: the client patient themselves, they feel so supported, you know,
25:32
Speaker 4: like everyone's this is my treatment team and they're working
25:35
Speaker 4: together because they really want me to feel better.
25:38
Speaker 2: They want to a more stable place. Yes, yeah, yeah,
25:43
Speaker 2: there's and.
25:44
Speaker 4: I think even just seeing that you're making effort is incredible,
25:49
Speaker 4: like this person is really going above and beyond and.
25:52
Speaker 2: Advocating for me.
25:54
Speaker 4: And because it's not always felt with every provider and
25:57
Speaker 4: we know that because we probably both personally experience that,
26:01
Speaker 4: and even for myself it's like, okay, if this provide,
26:03
Speaker 4: if you're not feeling safe or comfortable with this provider,
26:06
Speaker 4: and I this is my PSA always to clients and
26:09
Speaker 4: patients like you're paying them, not the other way around,
26:12
Speaker 4: Like you can you can look for the person who
26:15
Speaker 4: you feel most supportive or supported by.
26:19
Speaker 3: Yep.
26:22
Speaker 4: And so if okay, so if someone is just navigating
26:29
Speaker 4: complex symptoms, like what would you like they're kind of
26:33
Speaker 4: at the beginning, or even they've been navigating them for
26:35
Speaker 4: a while, like, what would you suggest sort of as
26:38
Speaker 4: next steps?
26:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think one we had to be
26:41
Speaker 3: really careful around staying within our lane and like our
26:44
Speaker 3: scope of practice and not giving explicit medical advice. But
26:48
Speaker 3: I am a big fan of leaning into really the
26:51
Speaker 3: concept of acceptance as I described it earlier, that acceptance
26:55
Speaker 3: doesn't mean we just accept things are as they are
26:57
Speaker 3: right now, But how do we live in right now
27:00
Speaker 3: now without all this extra tension and this kind of
27:03
Speaker 3: like how do we also see a path for hope
27:06
Speaker 3: or see a path for like you have multiple options
27:09
Speaker 3: in front of you, which because a lot of times
27:11
Speaker 3: that's what's happening is they see just one option and
27:15
Speaker 3: that option doesn't look or feel good to them. So
27:17
Speaker 3: that's where, again, where a lot of that that tension
27:19
Speaker 3: is coming from. So if we can just help expand
27:22
Speaker 3: their options, allowing them to choose from an array of
27:26
Speaker 3: either different medical providers or different testing or different switching
27:31
Speaker 3: up insurances or you know, something like that, like giving
27:35
Speaker 3: them options. I mean, we know that choice has such
27:37
Speaker 3: a huge impact on how our nervous system feels. And yeah,
27:43
Speaker 3: so I think giving them choice is probably one of
27:46
Speaker 3: the first and if they've had too if they have
27:49
Speaker 3: too many options. We before you and I started, we
27:52
Speaker 3: were talking a little bit about functional medicine, and I
27:53
Speaker 3: think functional medicine sometimes throws too much, like there's just
27:57
Speaker 3: there's too many options and not all of it is
27:59
Speaker 3: valid or really even works anecdotally either. So I think
28:05
Speaker 3: it's important to see where your client is at. Do
28:07
Speaker 3: they have too much option in front of them and
28:09
Speaker 3: they actually need to narrow it down a little bit,
28:11
Speaker 3: or do they have like this one option, this one
28:14
Speaker 3: thing in front of them and they need to see
28:15
Speaker 3: that there's there's more.
28:17
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, and again finding that middle, finding that
28:20
Speaker 4: middle path with them is huge, And I do want
28:26
Speaker 4: to ask you, how do you feel finding a mental
28:30
Speaker 4: health professional who's you know, who has chronic illness experience,
28:35
Speaker 4: Like how do you find that to be beneficial?
28:37
Speaker 3: Like yeah, as like as me the client or yes, yeah,
28:44
Speaker 3: I think I've been at such different places in my life,
28:49
Speaker 3: like my actually in grad school, it was my own
28:52
Speaker 3: I didn't even think of like me and my I
28:54
Speaker 3: didn't think of myself as having a chronic illness. I
28:56
Speaker 3: just thought like my mom had pain her whole life,
28:59
Speaker 3: she never had answers from any doctor ever, And I
29:02
Speaker 3: just thought that was going to be my trajectory. And
29:04
Speaker 3: it was my therapist who had a chronic illness and
29:07
Speaker 3: saw the signs of me, and it was like, you
29:09
Speaker 3: need to go get like assessed and go go go
29:13
Speaker 3: to the doctor. Because I wasn't going to the doctor.
29:15
Speaker 3: So she just encouraged that. And I don't know that
29:19
Speaker 3: she would have if she hadn't seen the signs because
29:22
Speaker 3: she had lived it herself. Maybe maybe she would have,
29:26
Speaker 3: you know, I don't. I can't say for sure, but
29:28
Speaker 3: that was really invaluable. And then my most recent kind
29:32
Speaker 3: of therapist, I didn't really need her to have experience
29:34
Speaker 3: I had already kind of I had been. I needed
29:37
Speaker 3: something different at that point, and so it didn't matter
29:39
Speaker 3: to me if she did or didn't. So I think
29:41
Speaker 3: that's the message here, is it just be so flexible
29:45
Speaker 3: with your journey and just constantly knowing and like being
29:49
Speaker 3: curious about what your needs are and reaching for what
29:52
Speaker 3: your needs are. You know, it doesn't even have to
29:54
Speaker 3: be within a certain identity. It's just it's just what
29:58
Speaker 3: do you need in this moment? Can you reach for that?
30:01
Speaker 4: I'm so so so good And for a therapists who
30:05
Speaker 4: aren't chronic illness informed, you know, if you have someone
30:08
Speaker 4: in front of you or you know there's there's question marks,
30:11
Speaker 4: I am going to encourage you to encourage your client
30:16
Speaker 4: to see a medical professional to rule certain.
30:19
Speaker 2: Things out line disease just as.
30:21
Speaker 4: One example of so many has over three hundred symptoms,
30:24
Speaker 4: many of which are mental health related and are over
30:29
Speaker 4: are overlooked, and it's underdiagnosed and it's misdiagnosed so so often.
30:33
Speaker 4: That's why it's called the great imitator. But I'm just
30:36
Speaker 4: giving one example. Like a thyroid, for example, can have
30:39
Speaker 4: a myriad of the symptoms. Right, So if something feels
30:44
Speaker 4: like hmm, I don't, I don't know, just it might
30:47
Speaker 4: be worthwhile to encourage the person you're working with to
30:51
Speaker 4: see to see somebody.
30:52
Speaker 3: And also, more than anything, if a client is coming
30:55
Speaker 3: in with a lot of anxiety about their health and
30:57
Speaker 3: they say, you know, they've been to this doctor and
30:59
Speaker 3: that doctor, and the labs are always showing up like
31:02
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with their labs and blah blah blah,
31:04
Speaker 3: the last thing as a therapist that you should be
31:06
Speaker 3: doing is trying to convince them then that they are
31:08
Speaker 3: okay and they just need to stop pursuing medical treatment.
31:11
Speaker 3: There's a there's there's a tricky balance here with with health,
31:14
Speaker 3: anxiety and OCD, and it can definitely veer into that absolutely,
31:19
Speaker 3: but regardless, there's still something happening inside. So the very
31:23
Speaker 3: least we should be paying attention to those physicals. This
31:26
Speaker 3: is where sematic experiencing comes in. We're paying attention to
31:28
Speaker 3: those physical symptoms. We are not dismissing them. We are
31:31
Speaker 3: learning how to not fear them while also not fearing
31:35
Speaker 3: them doesn't mean pretending they're okay. It means I'm feeling
31:39
Speaker 3: this thing and it doesn't have to shake me to
31:41
Speaker 3: my core, and I can be curious about it without
31:44
Speaker 3: trying to pretend it's not there, or pretend that you know,
31:47
Speaker 3: this means I have cancer because I have a pain
31:48
Speaker 3: in my foot. Like there's a balance between all of this.
31:53
Speaker 4: So I once again that middle, that middle path, and
31:56
Speaker 4: I think as a provider too, bringing that curiosity rather
32:00
Speaker 4: than judgment up to that forefront of like, no, this
32:03
Speaker 4: is in their head.
32:04
Speaker 2: Well, I guess the head is in the body. So yeah,
32:09
Speaker 2: we look at everything.
32:10
Speaker 4: We look at everything, and the fact of the matter is,
32:12
Speaker 4: you know, I chronic illness my whole life, but I
32:14
Speaker 4: normalized it for so long until it became so debilitating
32:17
Speaker 4: and I couldn't and I was told for so long
32:20
Speaker 4: that things were enough in the range, you know, and
32:24
Speaker 4: I intuitively knew something was off. But I'm constantly having
32:27
Speaker 4: people tell me this. Then I'm invalidated and I'm just
32:33
Speaker 4: going to stop seeking at exactly some point, which is harsh.
32:37
Speaker 2: It is really harsh.
32:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, you just think something's wrong with you, but nobody
32:41
Speaker 3: can help you through it, so like it's just a
32:43
Speaker 3: you problem. And yeah, it's really isolating.
32:45
Speaker 4: And that's yeah, we won't get too into like medical
32:48
Speaker 4: trauma is real, and there's there's a lot of gas
32:50
Speaker 4: lighting that that happens. So, yeah, an invitation to anyone
32:55
Speaker 4: working with a client with mysterious symptoms or full blown
32:58
Speaker 4: chronic illness to just to bring that compassion and the
33:02
Speaker 4: attempt for understanding, right.
33:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if you are really struggling with this, my
33:07
Speaker 3: consultation group is free. It's once a month, every third
33:10
Speaker 3: Friday of the month from one to two thirty pm
33:12
Speaker 3: Eastern and you can just pop in, just send me
33:15
Speaker 3: an email, and I absolutely will not judge you for
33:18
Speaker 3: coming into and asking, like I don't know if I
33:20
Speaker 3: even believe my client with all of their different ailments,
33:24
Speaker 3: Like we can work through that, because that is also
33:26
Speaker 3: a very normal response given the culture that we live in.
33:29
Speaker 3: So I don't blame anyone for going there at first,
33:32
Speaker 3: but then we have to seek out answers and be
33:36
Speaker 3: helpful and supportive.
33:38
Speaker 2: Amen.
33:38
Speaker 4: And I've been to Destiny's Group and it's great, and
33:40
Speaker 4: I wish I can't.
33:41
Speaker 2: Attend it more often.
33:42
Speaker 4: It's just always I'm always seeing clients at that at
33:44
Speaker 4: that time. It's so it's such a valuable resource. Thanks
33:47
Speaker 4: for creating it. And where I mean, can you just
33:50
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit more about the memberships and.
33:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the memberships. I have one that's client based.
33:58
Speaker 3: So also if you just feel like you have client
34:00
Speaker 3: who's struggling with acceptance with you know, uh, not knowing
34:06
Speaker 3: anybody else who's going through what they're going through. The
34:09
Speaker 3: membership is a coaching capacity, so we're not doing therapy,
34:12
Speaker 3: and anyone from any state can join. I do intensives
34:16
Speaker 3: as well for clients of Georgia, Florida, Colorado, and then
34:19
Speaker 3: for therapists. Again, I have the Business Council Group and
34:23
Speaker 3: the Clinical Console Group and we have a really strong,
34:27
Speaker 3: little like group of providers that yeah, support each other.
34:34
Speaker 4: So and you have the directory, right, So for someone
34:37
Speaker 4: who's seeking first, I mean, we didn't even mention this.
34:39
Speaker 2: How do people find your website?
34:41
Speaker 3: And you're, oh, yeah, yeah, right, sorry. The Chronic Illness
34:44
Speaker 3: Therapist dot com is the website. You won't be able
34:47
Speaker 3: to find anything about the membership on it because well,
34:50
Speaker 3: I'm just still trying to figure out some stuff with
34:51
Speaker 3: the membership, but you can email me about that. For
34:54
Speaker 3: client client based memberships, everything else can be found on
34:57
Speaker 3: the Chronic Illness Therapist dot com.
35:00
Speaker 4: And for someone looking for a chronic illness literate therapist,
35:04
Speaker 4: they can find one on the directory, right yeah.
35:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's just on my homepage of the Chronic
35:08
Speaker 3: Illness Therapist if you scroll to the bottom, the directory
35:10
Speaker 3: is down there.
35:11
Speaker 4: And for anyone who wants to work with you one
35:13
Speaker 4: on one, they can find out on your website as well,
35:16
Speaker 4: right yep.
35:17
Speaker 2: And they also have a conference.
35:19
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, we'll be putting together a conference next year.
35:23
Speaker 3: There will be cees. It'll be in Atlanta. Really excited
35:26
Speaker 3: about that, so definitely feel free. On my website there's
35:29
Speaker 3: a services for Professionals tabs, so you can go there
35:33
Speaker 3: and sign up for the for the conference waitlist.
35:36
Speaker 4: Okay, and last, but not least, Dusty, Like, if there's
35:39
Speaker 4: one thing a client and or therapist listening or watching
35:43
Speaker 4: us right now walks away with from this episode, what
35:47
Speaker 4: would you like it to be more than anything else?
35:49
Speaker 3: I just think the underlying factor in all of this
35:52
Speaker 3: is curiosity. Like, if you weren't raised with curiosity for
35:55
Speaker 3: a myriad of reasons, that is the number one skill
35:58
Speaker 3: that you're going to have to work on is learning
36:00
Speaker 3: how to be curious. It's going to help you more
36:03
Speaker 3: than any other skill.
36:04
Speaker 4: I think I cannot agree with that. I had to
36:08
Speaker 4: learn that myself within my I was so curious outside
36:12
Speaker 4: of myself but not within myself, and it's such an
36:18
Speaker 4: understated tool basically in practice.
36:22
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So, thank you so much for taking the
36:26
Speaker 2: time to talk about this. You are amazing. Thank you
36:30
Speaker 2: for everything you do for our community. Really, thank you.
36:33
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing. I'm I'm very much appreciated.
36:36
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, take care. Thank you for anyone listening
36:39
Speaker 2: to Love but Love. Okay, I'm gonna
36:44
Speaker 3: Ord