Latest / Pod Save America / “The 2024 Dry Ron.”

Transcript

“The 2024 Dry Ron.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Ron DeSantis kicks off his presidential campaign
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: in waiting with a nationwide book tour. We quickly run
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: through the week's top stories in a new segment we're
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: calling One Line with Cocaine Bear.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Jesus.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're doing it there.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: MSNBC's Mehdi Hassan stops by to talk about how Democrats
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: can win more arguments. And we decide who gets what
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: in Marjorie Taylor Greene's national divorce. But first, we are
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: relaunching Vote Save America's No Off Years program for 2023.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: And it's starting with that must-win Supreme Court seat that
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about in Wisconsin. The election is April 4th,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: and you can help right now wherever you live by
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: going to votesaveamerica.com. Sign up for no-off years. You can donate,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: make phone calls, volunteer, get involved. Votesaveamerica.com. Get to it.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Get to it.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Hey, get to it.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: Before we get to the show, guys, I ran into
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: a very important friend. Over the weekend. We wanted to
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: check in, see how everyone's doing, and just deliver a
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: message to you guys. So here we go.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, boy.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Hey, friends of the pod.
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: It's Joe Biden.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: Look, I know you haven't heard from me in a while,
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: and there's rumblings that it's because of some lingering hard
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: feelings from the primary.
• 1:42
  Speaker 5: Here's the deal. This is good.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: Did Joe Biden like it when Lovett said he had
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: a better chance of winning Powerball than I did of
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: becoming president?
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I didn't say that.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: No, Joe did not.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Joe didn't like it.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: Did Joe Biden find it funny when Favreau said my
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: South Carolina event looked like a party at a discount
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: funeral home? No, Joe did not. Did Joe Biden chuckle
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: in Nevada when Tommy said the last time he saw
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: a socialist deliver a beating like that, it was a Sandinista?
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Actually, that was pretty funny.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: Today, I'm here to say that's all malarkey under the bridge.
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: We've got to get serious, folks. 24 is coming quick.
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: The soul of our nation is at stake, and I
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: literally mean that, literally. If we want to build an
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: economy from the bottom up and the middle out, from
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: the nethermost to the tippy top, from the center along
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: an orthogonal radii to the periphery of the Euclidean space
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: we call the middle class, then we have to work together.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: So I'm here today to say Biden will be back
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: on Pod Save America this year. That's not hyperbole, folks.
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: Biden out.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Good news.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Great news.
• 2:44
  Speaker 6: That was great.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Pretty cool. Thanks for getting that note. I just saw
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: him at Starbucks.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: He recorded right into your phone.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: Wow. That was obviously fake. That was artificial intelligence.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Before anyone gets, before anyone gets, well, yeah, there's people
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: to be clipping that and sending it around in no time.
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: Great.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: From a site called 11 Labs, I paid $ 5 to
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: make it, actually $ 22, because I blew through my limit
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: before I got to the final text. But yeah, those
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: jokes aren't real either. We made those up, I think.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: He's not agreed to come on the show, but boy,
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: will this be dangerous in elections going forward.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Apparently, there's, I think, someone on Twitter made an account
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: and then a clip of one of the candidates in
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the Chicago mayoral race saying something completely wrong. And then, like,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: it got sent around and then they had to take
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: down the tweet and they took down the account eventually.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: So it's already starting. It's really going to be bad.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: Before we move on.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I think we can handle it.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Before we move on to the actual show, I actually
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: did run into one other friend.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Real quick. Hey, fellas, it's Barack.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: I just heard the great news about landing the Biden
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: interview later this year.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Congrats.
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: Look, I was talking to Michelle about this, and she agrees.
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: But we wanted to let you know that we, too,
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: found the jokes Joe mentioned to be lacking. The arc
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: of the moral universe is long, and it's got to
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: bend towards better material than that. Yep. What I have
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: said is that it would serve you well to be funnier.
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: And to reject the notion that this is the best
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: you can do. Fortunately, I am a much better speech writer, podcaster,
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: and joke writer than any of you. But, unfortunately, I
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: will be unavailable to help out going forward. Regardless, congrats
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: on all the success at Crooked Media. Vote Save America
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: is the shit. Obama, out.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Tommy, were you an Obama speechwriter?
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: That sounded a lot like him.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: I've got to say, it turns out, actually, just once
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: he puts a spin on it, really anybody can do it.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: That's tough.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Telling us our material is lacking is pretty close.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: My stomach hurts. I've got a little knot.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Flashback to that immigration speech, huh?
• 4:44
  Speaker 6: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Hey now, hey, hey, come on, we're just having fun here.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Should we do the show?
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if I played with that website any longer over
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: the weekend, I was getting divorced.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was quite a few other ones.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: Anyway, all right.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Let's start with the latest developments in the 2024 Mess
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: America pageant.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Ron DeSantamoni.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Jesus.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Never surrender to the local.
• 5:08
  Speaker 6: That was so loud.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: That was so loud.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: That was a lot of clips today, guys.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: That was so loud.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: A lot of clips.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Wow. Oof. All right. DeSantis is kicking off what appears
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: to be a pre-presidential announcement MAGA media tour for his
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: new book, The Courage to be Free, which the New
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: York Times is calling culture war mad libs with a
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: dull coldness at its core that reads like a politician's
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: memoir turned out by chat GPT.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: The themes of it.
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: DeSantis is scheduled to visit dozens of cities in the
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: coming weeks after his political committee hosted a retreat last
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: weekend at a Palm Beach Four Seasons just four miles
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: from Mar-a-Lago. Wow. That included everyone from Tom Cotton and
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: former Trump chief of staff Mick Mulvaney to the libs
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: of TikTok lady and Laura Ingraham. But the other Florida
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: man still presents a formidable challenge for DeSantis. Trump is
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: still leading in most of the current polling, including a
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: new one from Fox News. It has the former president
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: at 43%, DeSantis at 28%, Nikki Haley and Mike Pence
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of Hang Mike Pence fame at 7%, and everyone else
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: at 2% or below, including your boy, Mike Pompeo.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: I know, I love it.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: I love that he's on there. Let's start with what's
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: sure to become the greatest political memoir of our generation.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: What jumped out at you guys from DeSantis' book reviews
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: or interviews about his book in terms of his message
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: or strategy for this primary?
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: Love it?
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, these books aren't real books. I
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: think people, these aren't, the book tour doesn't exist to
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: promote the book. The book exists to promote the tour.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Like the reason Mike Pompeo wrote a book wasn't really
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: to sell books and good for him because he didn't.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Well, he bought them all.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: His pack bought like 40 grand worth.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: It's to create a reason to have press people reach
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: out to book you on shows and talk about the
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: content of the book, the content of the book being
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Mike Pompeo rules.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a cynical enterprise.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: It's a little book called Audacity of Hope that did
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: pretty well.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Well, he's the exception. He's the exception, famously. Famously the exception.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know that there was anything, actually, based on
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: the reviews, I do think this book is, like, right
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: in the fucking center of the target of exactly the
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: kind of shit Ron DeSantis would produce. I suppose maybe
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: there's a little bit of, like, he doesn't really engage
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: in the fight with Trump. He goes out of his
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: way to say something kind of vaguely pleasant about him
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: in the book, but I don't know that you would
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: expect him to do anything else. I didn't find.
• 7:30
  Speaker 6: I just.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: So far, there's nothing particularly surprising. He's taken on the
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: woke mob. He's done a really good job in Florida.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: That's his message.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I have not and
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: will not read the book.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Be clear about that. Are you going to read it?
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to have a book report.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: You're going to read all of it? Yeah, but I mean,
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: what I've read about the book, woke ideologies, bad Florida,
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: good generic biography. It was interesting that he didn't pick
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: a fight with Trump. Obviously, like a book's not the
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: place you do that. He is doing this press tour.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: He recently went to New York, Pennsylvania, and Illinois to
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: do law and order message events with cops. He's not
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: going to see back. I thought that was interesting. So
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: I think it's all building in anticipation to when he
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: decides to go to an early state. That's the book tour.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: From the reviews and the excerpts and everything, you really
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: get why Donald Trump has nicknamed him Ron DeSanctimonious. The
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: guy really does think of himself as... Well, did you
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: guys remember... The video that was put out around the election.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: God created Ron DeSantis on the seventh day.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: We have a clip of this.
• 8:30
  Speaker 7: And on the eighth day, God looked down on his
• 8:34
  Speaker 7: planned paradise and said, I need a protector. So God
• 8:40
  Speaker 7: made a fighter. God said, I need somebody willing to
• 8:44
  Speaker 7: get up before dawn, kiss his family goodbye, travel thousands
• 8:48
  Speaker 7: of miles for no other reason than to serve the people.
• 8:52
  Speaker 7: to save their jobs, their livelihoods, their liberty.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: Their happiness.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I think that there's something important in the existence of
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: this and in the sanctimoniousness you're describing, which is, I
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: believe Ron DeSantis was married at Disney World.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: This is true.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: And there is Disney adult energy inside of that sanctimonious horseshit.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that was their video that his wife
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: tweeted And it's, it's, it's called, it's like, I just
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: can't believe he's that obvious about it.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: And on the ninth day, God sent a puker, me,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: to puke all over the place.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: About that video.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, or Disney World. Or Disney World.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing, he is, it's clear he wants to
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: lean in hard to like, to take on institutions and
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: not just government and academia and the media, which like
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: all Republicans do, but also corporations, right? That was his
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: fight with Disney. And his rationale, he was trying to
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: invent a rationale for it, which is, well, it's okay.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I know that I'm supposed to be libertarian and limited
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: government and all that, but because all these institutions now
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: are controlled by the left, it's okay for government. to
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: get involved. I think the danger for him in doing that,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: especially in a general election, is he seems like a
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: person who thinks he knows better than everyone else. So
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: instead of all these institutions having the power, now Ron
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: DeSantis has the power, right? So it's like, don't trust
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: these institutions. Trust me, Ron DeSantis. I want to control
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: what books you read, what your kids learn, how your
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: company gets involved in politics. And I think that's a
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: it's a bit of a weakness.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: Not libertarian.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a he he does this dodge right where
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: he says, well, once these corporations start acting very political,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: they kind of usurp the power of the democracy by
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: doing things that they weren't elected to do, which is
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I suppose have opinions. It's all very, very murky. It's
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: not very like it's not um. It's not cogent or anything.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Not very well thought out.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: But he starts to say things like, well, if banks
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: decide to not loan money to gun manufacturers, that's a
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: way of the banks anti-democratically trying to restrict gun rights, right?
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: And basically what it amounts to is if you disagree
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: with me, you're doing something Anti-democratic.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I imagine he wouldn't say that if the
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: insurance company refuses to cover serious illness, that they're infringing
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: on your right to live.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Well, sure.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: These guys are also at the same time, the other
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: side of their mouth, they're trying to ban ESG investing,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: which is when companies invest in companies that have environmentally
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: sustainable portfolios, blah, blah, blah. So they're just using it
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: as a vehicle to attack the left. There's no consistency.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Well, there's no consistency. And I actually do think underneath
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: all of it is all the right wingers who want
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: to get behind Ron DeSantis. They basically just assume, yeah, yeah,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: he's going to say this kind of shit, but he's
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: not going to come after the money. You know, he's
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: going to attack Disney, which is one company, and he's
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: going to go after the schools and the trans kids
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: and the gay kids and the teachers. He's not coming
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: after the money. Well, we're here for the money.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: And that's another big part of the book, which is
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: there's a lot about the Florida economy and the Florida
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: miracle and stuff like that, because he does want to
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: reassure is partly a general election strategy and partly for
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: the people you're talking about all of the like Elon
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Musk's of the world. Well, not even Elon Musk, sort
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: of like the finance bros.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: It runs from the finance bros to the conservatives who
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: have tolerated the evangelicals for 40 years because of the
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: tax rates to the Jeb Bushes who all want to
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: tell themselves that the stuff that Ron DeSantis does when
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: he goes in front of a school and says, we're
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: going to stop the wokeness and we're going to attack
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: the critical race theory and all that. that they kind
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: of see that as a little song and dance he
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: does to make the other stuff possible. And as long
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: as that's how it feels, it's like Trump. I mean,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: it's like every, it's the Republican playbook for the last
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: 50 years.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: And if he gets through the primary, I imagine he
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: will pivot hard to being that guy over the cultural. Yeah.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: It'll be fewer schools, more gas stations.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh, what'd you guys make of the collection of, uh,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: MAGA goons at the, uh, Ron curious confab or, uh,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: some of the early support DeSantis has been getting from donors, activists, and,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: most importantly, uh, Jeb.
• 12:55
  Speaker 8: He's been a really effective governor.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: He's young.
• 12:58
  Speaker 8: I think we're on the verge of a generational change
• 13:00
  Speaker 8: in our politics.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I kind of hope so.
• 13:02
  Speaker 8: I think it's time for a more forward-leaning, future-oriented conversation
• 13:08
  Speaker 8: in our politics as well.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: I liked how some of the reporting made it like
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: this head-to-head battle. I was like, can you believe DeSantis
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: had a meeting in Florida? I was like, he's the governor.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like, oh, four miles from Mar-a-Lago. I'm sorry.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize that Trump owned the state. I thought
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: it was an impressive group, right? He had the governor
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: of Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kim Reynolds.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Loosely defined. Loosely.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Refer for him, right?
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Context, yeah.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: The governor of Iowa. He met with this guy, Bob
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Vander Plaats, who's this Iowa conservative group leader. Like, you
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: don't carve out an hour for that dude unless you're
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: running for president, right? There were some less impressive people.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Ron Johnson, Tom Cotton, Chip Roy, Mick Mulvaney, Laura Ingram.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: It wasn't like some historic massive event for a governor,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: but I think it did communicate, like, I got a network.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: I can raise some money. Jeb probably can unlock some
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: of that big donor cash that helped him raise $ 100
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: million for his super PAC that he lit on fire.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: I think the Jeb endorsement is the kiss of death.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I don't think Ron DeSantis will ever mention that again,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: but you know who was going to mention that every
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: day from now until the primary?
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: And look, the topics of this thing were election integrity,
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: border security, and medical authoritarianism. He's in the Trump sort
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: of message territory.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: What's interesting to me is that All of these people,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: it's not like 16 where there was a bunch of
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Republicans who didn't like Trump and then they fell in
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: line when Trump won the nomination. These are all people
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: who have loved Donald Trump and maybe still do love
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. And now they're all sitting there at a
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: not afraid of Donald Trump at all, by the way.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Like now Donald Trump knows all these people who are
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: at this Ron DeSantis thing and they don't give a shit.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: They just went anyway.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: They win anyway.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Laura Ingraham, Benny Johnson, like a lot of the MAGA
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: media stars are there.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I think they can all claim to be Ron Curious
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: and that they love Donald Trump and they love Ron
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: DeSantis and it's a great big party with wonderful people
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: and we're going to figure it out.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: It's not how they've acted for the last several years. Sure.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: About Donald Trump.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: Trump likes nothing more than when you come crawling back.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: The thing about also doing it by Mar-a-Lago, you know,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: in Elden Ring, sometimes the way you take on the
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: biggest of adversaries is you have to get right up
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: next to them.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: You think you can pull away. No, you've got to
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: get real close. And people don't know that.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Did you guys know that Trump's super PAC is called
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: MAGA Inc.? That is literally true. It's just a.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: I thought it was called Save America.
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: Well, there's one called MAGA Inc. that was talked about
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: in these stories, in the Washington Post in particular, as
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: sort of the competing event that happened the same weekend
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: as this big DeSantis thing. Interesting.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: So the Post story also has anonymous Republicans who've met
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: with DeSantis saying that he, quote, remains stilted in one-on-one
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: conversations and struggles to make small talk or appear enthusiastic.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Who among us? How much do you think that matters?
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, listen, this might come as a surprise to
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: some listeners, but I don't have a ton of connections
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: into DeSantis' orbit. You know, I'm not going to spend
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: a lot of face time with the guy. He does
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: seem like a brooding, kind of stilted weirdo at times.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: He clearly seems to get his rocks out by being
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: very mean to people, especially kids. But he also.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a plus in the primary.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: He won a lot of elections. He's raised a lot
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: of money. Like, yes, I think in the early states,
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: you have to glide glad hand and, you know, kiss
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: ass and win over people in small settings. But I'm
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: a little skeptical of this narrative, given his success. I
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: don't know. We'll see. Trump is uniquely good at this
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: element of politics, though, right? He calls people all day long,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: every day. His events are just pure entertainment for a
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: lot of people. So there's someone... found a narrative about
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: Ron DeSantis and they're driving at it because it highlights
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: something that Trump thinks he's good at.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a reminder that Ron DeSantis is
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: really untested as a national figure. He hasn't done a
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: lot of the kind of more social things that you're
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: going to do when you become a presidential candidate. And
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: he is going to ultimately have to become the Republican
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: nominee by standing side by side with Donald Trump on
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: a debate stage. He has not won because he's a
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: great debater. There are some pretty weird clips going around
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: from when Ron DeSantis went up against Charlie Criss, for example.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: It didn't end up ultimately mattering, but it doesn't mean
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: he won those debates. So I do think it's like,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: you know, we'll see.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, you know, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: all really great retail politicians shaking hands one-on-one kind of thing.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: So it is a quality that a lot of the
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: previous presidents have had. On the other, I wonder, and
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I know you talked about this a lot in 2020
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: in Iowa. I feel like there's a lot less retail
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: politicking these days.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: It happens.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: It just mattered less in 2020.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: It matters less.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: The national narrative mattered more for these Democratic primary candidates.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: So who knows if that'll be the case.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: And that's what I wonder if that papers over some
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: of DeSantis' weaknesses in this, because a lot more of
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the primary happens online with... tweets, video clips, speeches, all
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Like, I don't, I don't know if,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: if like being a little aloof in person matters as much.
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, one point DeSantis makes, which is that the
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: reason he has been so relentless in doing these press
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: conferences of kind of changing the story and kind of
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: coming up with something to go up and go in
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: front of a, you know, to do a COVID press conference,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: to do a school's press, whatever, is that, um, it, it,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: keeps the story, it keeps the story where he wants it.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: And he's been very, very, that's like, that is his medium.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: His medium is as governor standing up, making some fucking
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: hellish announcement, getting progressives all spun up about it, getting
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: national coverage about it. And when that coverage dies down,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: figuring out the next one, like, is that a recipe
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: to run for president? Or is that a recipe to
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: be a successful governor who looks like a great presidential candidate?
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know. So what happens when he doesn't have
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: that as a national figure And there's a lot of this,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe retail doesn't matter as much day to day.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: But now he's there's a video of him being a
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: schmuck at a deli and that's everywhere.
• 18:49
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: So Trump has been previewing his argument against DeSantis on
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Truth Social, saying here's one truth. There's an example. Ron
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: DeSanctimonious wants to cut your Social Security and Medicare and
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: is an establishment globalist who loves rhinos. Paul Ryan, Jeb
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Bush and Karl Rove. What do you think of that
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: hit and what do you do about it if you're DeSantis, Tommy?
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: So Trump's 2020 budget cut Medicaid or proposed cutting Medicaid,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Social Security and Medicare. So he can make this attack
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: on DeSantis if he wants, but there's a pretty easy
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: rejoinder there just sort of sitting. The rhino stuff is fine.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: I'm sure Trump will try it out. I'll see what sticks.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: But I think the threshold question is, do these voters
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: think DeSantis is a rhino? I kind of doubt that.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: He seems like their second favorite culture warrior. And DeSantis
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: can also say, was I a rhino when you endorsed me?
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: Or he could say, maybe we shouldn't attack other Republicans
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: because that's how we lose like we did in Georgia.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: So I think, I don't know. I mean, he's flailing
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: a little bit.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I think the establishment cuck piece of that is going
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: to be a bit stronger than the rhino piece of that.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I think that like you're that you're going to be
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: the candidate of your Jebs and your Paul Ryan is
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: going to be the place where he can where there's
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: a bit of a softer, softer belly there.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Well, so Sarah Longwell, who's been on the pod before,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: she has this excellent podcast called The Focus Group, and
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: she's been interviewing Trump voters who are like open to alternatives,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: but still like Trump. And for a while, it's just like, oh,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: we love DeSantis. We love DeSantis. And then she said
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: recently she's heard in these focus groups, a lot of
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: these voters being like, DeSantis' record, it's a little establishment.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Like some of the establishment. There we go.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's his. She also asked about the Trump
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: groomer attack. And they were like, I mean, that's just ridiculous.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: That sounds like something that Trump always says about everyone.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Like no one took it seriously. And they were just like,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: that's Trump being Trump. But the establishment thing is I
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: think it's a real danger. And I think if Trump
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: can connect for DeSantis, I think if Trump can connect
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: him to McConnell, he's going to use all of his
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: votes in the House. He's going to you know, I
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: think it's a I think that is the danger.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: And then in terms of the endorsements that that DeSantis
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: will ultimately get from a lot of figures as a
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: kind of positive and positive into a negative.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: And I think I think Trump wants the race to
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: be like populist outsider versus establishment. He wants to be
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: the establishment. DeSantis will try to prove his populist outsider
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: credentials by doing the like, I'm attacking the woke mob
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: and Disney and the corporations and all that kind of stuff.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: But I think he wants to make the race all
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: about electability and generational change. So he doesn't want he
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: doesn't want to be in the frame of, oh, no, no, no.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Trump's the establishment. I'm the outsider. I don't think you're
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: going to win that against Donald Trump. I think you
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: are going to be able to win an electability generational
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: change argument against Donald Trump. So he's going to want
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: to make that.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: I think you just do the classic. Like I was
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: a governor who was actually in charge of things and
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: had to run a state. And here's my record. We
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: grew this. We did that. Like you can call me
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: names if you want, but here's my record.
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: And you're, and you're a loser and you lost to
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: That's the, that's, that's to him. That's I think his
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: best attack.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: So, you know, Trump is, as always a Raptor testing
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: the fences. He's seeing what works. He threw out the
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: groomer thing, took it for a spin and, Did it
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: work right away?
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: No.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Does that mean he's going to abandon it? Does that
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: mean he's going to hit it again and again for
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: a while until it's in the back of people's minds?
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know. There was the, you know, there was
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the report that he started using meatball Ron. Is he
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: trying to see if there's just a little anti-Italian prejudice
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: just left right under the surface for some of those Jews?
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: You know, just like some of those South Florida guys
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: get just enough to make a difference. He's trying it out.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: He wants to test it out.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: We'll see. Well, none of Trump's most effective or famous
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: attacks are like purely about policy. There's always some kind
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: of a character thing to this.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: By the end, we're all like did Ted Cruz's dad
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: kill Kennedy?
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I thought he did.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: And so I do think that like, he wants us
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: to think of Ron DeSantis as sort of like an
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: aloof weirdo establishment. He's going to put all that together.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, what are you doing with this guy?
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: And there's, and nothing will be able to stop Donald
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Trump from bringing up the teacher. Weird things happened. I
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know. During a debate that's coming.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: We'll see. So one reason DeSantis hasn't formally announced yet
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: is that he wants to leave his mark on the
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: current Florida legislative session, which now includes, thanks to DeSantis,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: a bill to put state colleges under full control of
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: DeSantis' political appointees. And the bill would also ban all
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: gender studies as well as all diversity, equity, and inclusion
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: programs in state colleges and universities. This will obviously endear
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: him to the base in the primary. How do you
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: think it plays with most people? Like, should Democrats be
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: calling this out?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, I do think this is a similar dynamic to
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: what played out in the midterms. This is something that
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: plays for the base, but it is part of the
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: kind of radicalism, extremism. You know, there was that story
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: out of Michigan about that focus group laughing when this
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: question of bathrooms came up. It's not a concern people have.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: It's attacking something that people don't actually view as a
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: real and serious problem in their lives. It just seems
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: like right wing weird behavior. And it seems extreme. It
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: seems draconian. It seems anti-democratic. And I think it will
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: be a part of the case we make. Yeah.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Congratulations, DeSantis. You got all the gender studies majors.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: You got them.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: It's a weird. It's very triad. I mean, it's funny, John.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about this question. I had this sort
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: of a similar take that you had at the top,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: which is DeSantis tries to define what he's doing here
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: in the most sort of like unarguable way possible. So
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: he says that state colleges and universities have to quote,
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: promote the values necessary to preserve the constitutional Republic. No
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: one's going to fight with that. And they cannot define
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: American history as quote, contrary to the creation of a
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: new nation based on universal principles stated in the declaration
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: of independence. I don't even know what that means. I
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: don't even know what that means either. But like, rather
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: than sort of like engage on the specifics there, I
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: would like to see someone test the message that is
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: a little more libertarian, which is to say like Ron
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: DeSantis is trying to, put politicians fully in control of
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: your kid's education. He is trying to handpick who gets
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: to be a teacher and who doesn't. And you might
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: like that when Ron DeSantis is in charge, but what
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: happens when it's AOC, right? Like that's kind of like
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: the universal way to shoot at this.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: You don't like the gender studies classes? Don't take them.
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: You know, you don't like what this professor's doing or
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: that professor thinks? Don't take that professor, right? Like that,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: And Ron DeSantis, he only wants his political appointees in
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: charge of education.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Teachers decide what to teach, not politicians. Doctors decide how
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: to do medicine, not politicians. Let the schools decide. Let
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: parents decide. That is the place where we will, I think,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: appeal to the most people. And I do also think, too,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: DeSantis has played this game over the past couple of
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: years where he does one of these press conferences. He
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: speaks about it in the most general terms possible. People
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: look at the bill. They find out it's pretty heinous.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Progressive activists and people engaged on social media go ballistic correctly.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Either they outright lie about the bill or they amend
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: the bill and they claim, oh my God, Ron DeSantis
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: is once again being unfairly maligned. Look what he's done
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: to his critics. He's made his critics go wild. I
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: do think we have to watch out for that too.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: So there are quite a few other stories out there
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: this week. We figured we'd run through quickly with a
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: short take for each. And in honor of last weekend's
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: box office smash, we're calling this segment One line with
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: cocaine bear.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Jesus.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Every time it is so loud.
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: So here's each story is written down on a slip
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: of paper that we will take turns pulling out of
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: this trusty bear head that Tommy brought to the office.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: My friend from college made this.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: So thanks, Carl.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: For those of you who are watching on YouTube and
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: if you're just listening to the pod, you might want
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: to get on YouTube and watch this because there's a
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: big bear head on the table.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I think he used to sell these to people going
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: to like Coachella and stuff.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cool. All right, so we're all going to
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: take one, and then we're going to give a quick take,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: each of us. Who wants to start? Who wants to start?
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Tommy, kick it off.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Kick it off, buddy. You know which one I want.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: Don't be kidding. I got... The Nevada Democratic Party. Yes.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: So I don't have, I didn't prepare for that one.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: Where's the prompt?
• 26:53
  Speaker 7: Hold on.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: That story was too long.
• 26:54
  Speaker 6: Too long.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: We're going to edit this.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: The Nevada Democratic Party is in turmoil two years after
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: supporters of Senator Bernie Sanders took over the machine built
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: by Senator Harry Reid with both factions fighting each other
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: and even Sanders himself reportedly expressing disappointment with the new leadership.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: That's a good summary. Thank you, John. My take on
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: this is this is worrisome. We had Jackie Rosen up
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: in 2024, U.S. Senator from Nevada. tough state. She needs
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: an organization backing her. We don't know all the context,
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: but it did make me worry if Bernie Sanders is
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: frustrated with the current party chair. This is especially a
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: big deal in Nevada, where the Harry Reid political machine
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: has been critical to winning elections for decades and manages
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: to deliver years after his death somehow. So yeah, this sucks.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: He delivers years after his death, and some of the
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: voters he delivers are years after their deaths.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: Coming to a conspiracy near you, John.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: All right, I'll go. Go for it.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Let's see what we got.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: Let's see what we got. Cocaine Bear. They're not a sponsor.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know how that's possible.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Fox News, Dominion, and the MoveOn ad. Fox News host
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Howard Kurtz told his audience on Sunday that the network
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: is not allowing him to cover Dominion's $ 1. 8 billion defamation
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: lawsuit against Fox. The network is also refusing to run
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: a MoveOn.org ad. that highlights text messages that prove Fox
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: has lied to their audience about the 2020 election. Here's
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: my take. That's just good business sense. You can't have
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: people going, they're being sued for a billion dollars. The
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: whole business is at stake. You can't have people spouting
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: off about this. Everybody shut the fuck up. Look at
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: what talking did to us. Everybody on this network, we
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: are not talking about this until the suit is done.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: That just makes sense to me. Is that the wrong take?
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: No, that's a great take. Rupert Murdoch, by the way,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: this was news broke right before we started recording, said
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: in his deposition- that he basically admitted that all the
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: hosts were lying.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: And then he should have prevented it.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, seems not great.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: I just want to add that Howard Kurtz is full
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: of shit, and it didn't take a lawsuit to know
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: that there were a bunch of liars on their air,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: and as a media critic, you could have chimed in
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: any time, but sure, Howard.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, like the people's ombudsman from fucking hell.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Give me a break.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to bring the truth to the people at
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Fox News this time.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: But also, Tommy and I talked about this on our
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: bonus episode about the Dominion lawsuit. Like, this just goes
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: to show how fucking petrified Fox News is about their
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: audience finding out the truth of what happened. They know
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: that if a bunch, and some of you will be like, oh,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: their audience isn't going to care about it. then Fox
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: would not be going to such great lengths to prevent
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: them from knowing anything about this case.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: I'm only stifling Howie Kurtz's great length. You can tell
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: that paid hack shut up for 15 minutes.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: The move on ad, the Howie Kurtz thing, they know.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: What was the name of that person who worked for
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: the NRA and lit the New York Times on fire?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Dana Loesch.
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: If you called Dana Loesch the most heinous right wing figure, fascist,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: all that stuff.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Didn't care.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Loved it, ate it up. But if you said you
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: were a grifter, out for the money, that was where
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: you would.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Get the response. She got so mad at me.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It would always work.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Good for you.
• 29:55
  Speaker 6: Got her.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Where is she now? I don't hear from her.
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Lighting papers and fire at home.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Anyway, again, if you're going on Fox News and you're
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: not some Trump supporter, talk about the lawsuit. Bring up
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: the lawsuit.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Bring up the lawsuit.
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: Come on.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Whoever's the new Juan Williams. Yeah, I don't know.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on over there.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: All right. Oh, God. I got Marianne Williamson. All right.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Self-help author Marianne Williamson announced this weekend that she will
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: run for president in 2024. Williamson is the first Democratic
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: candidate to challenge President Biden. Hey, everyone, let's just ignore
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: this story. uh marion williamson dropped out before the first
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: votes were cast in uh 2020 and um you know
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: just made it to the debate stage had a few
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: very memeable quotes i had to do a lot of
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: prep to actually interview her.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: During the primary that happened.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah i interviewed yeah no i interviewed her and she
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: sent me one of her books cool signed a couple
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: couple signed copies of her books and uh Yeah, I
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: don't think anyone should be worrying about this.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: There will be no debates this time. There will be
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: no debates. Everyone hacked the system and figured out, oh,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: you just run for president. You got a lot of press.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: She's going to try to do it twice. We don't
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: have to let her.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you did it last time. You didn't even make
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: it to the.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: To Iowa.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: You didn't get out of single digits in any of
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: the polls and you didn't make it to any of
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: the votes. So why should you do it this time?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Well, Saturn's in a different part of the sky now.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: All right, Tommy.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: DJ Donald Trump.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Okay. That's a good one.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: So, Page Six reported that Donald Trump is officially DJing
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: every Thursday night at Mar-a-Lago. And I just wanted to
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: say that my take on this is that it is fakeness.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump is not on the ones and twos. He's
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: not scratching records. This man is playing with his iPad
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: and queuing up Celine Dion while he eats dinner. This
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: is just an old guy ruining dinner, and this is
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: not DJing fakeness. Ruining dinner, wow.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: He also likes Broadway tunes, it says. It's not just
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Celine Dion. And it's not just any Celine Dion. It's
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: specifically My Heart Will Go On.
• 31:55
  Speaker 8: Really?
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that Titanic banger. Imagine he's just sitting at the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: table and everyone's just having a nice time.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: It's like a dinner from hell.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: It sounds very Trump to me because it's like he's
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: too lazy to get up on stage.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got to be telling somebody else.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't even know if he knows how to
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: work an iPad.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: He's not touching an iPad.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: He's not touching an iPad.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Greg Craig electing the VP. Oh, boy.
• 32:17
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, love it.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: Let's poke the bear.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: In a new essay in the New York Times, former
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Obama White House counsel Greg Craig says because of President
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Biden's age and the greater chance he could pass away
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: in office, he should let Democratic delegates pick his VP
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: if he runs for re-election. I'm going to be honest.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: All right, K-Hive. Listen up. It's his love at stake.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to clip this. Yeah, I can hear the
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: buzzing of the K-Hive. Even as I get close to
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: this op-ed, I approached this op-ed with such incredible skepticism.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: It reminds me, I thought it was going to be
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: in the category of America needs a purple party or like,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: why won't Joe Biden choose John McCain in his running mate?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be that kind of
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: a thing. But as I read it, what I found
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: to be interesting about it is it does try to
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: solve this unsolvable problem, which on the one hand, the
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: only argument that really people feel is the strongest argument
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: against Joe Biden is one of age while kind of
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: recognizing that he's been so successful as a president and
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: done as well with the hand he was dealt as
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: any person could, while at the same time being worried
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: that he's not going to fulfill the promise that he made,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: which is passing the torch to a new generation of leaders.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: And this is an idea that says, let's have an
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: exciting campaign for who his VP will be. Obviously, that
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: is tough for the person who is currently the VP.
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: To read, I assume.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I assume it wasn't great to have that next to
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: the morning coffee. But the article says... I wonder if
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Greg could get a call. People are being unfair because
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: the article says it's not a bad thing for Kamala Harris.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: That's the article saying it.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: The article also argues that Biden... Basically, the article says
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: that this has happened once. Franklin Roosevelt did this in 1944. Apparently,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Adlai Stevenson did something like this. That turned out great.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: But Biden could say... I prefer Kamala Harris. I want my,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I want you to pick my current vice president. It's
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: a difference.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Between giving someone a Kamala Harris gift card and giving
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: somebody a hundred dollars and say, check out vice president
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: I want to, I mean, I just want to note
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: that a pundit sprinted to me for comfort. As soon
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: as you said the word K hive, Now, I want
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: to give Greg credit for drafting an op-ed that managed
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: to infuriate both the president's office and the vice president's
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: office equally. That's a rare feat.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Really hard to do.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Good for you.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: It's also the first original idea I've heard in a while.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: So, again, credit to him. The more I thought about it, though,
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: the more I thought at the end of the day,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know that this solves the problem that it's
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: claiming to solve, which is assuaging concerns about Biden's age,
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: because you sort of just highlight the concern about the
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: age for months and months and months and months. No,
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: it is a problem.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying I'm persuaded.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Can I highlight one other problem? Sure. Please. Please. Let
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: the people decide. The people or the DNC delegates?
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Do we want.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: To entrust the future of the president with the DNC delegates?
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden could just Twitter poll this thing like Elon.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I think the key thing, if you're worried about Joe
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Biden's age, is we keep sending him on more and
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: more scary international trips and hope God is not paying
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: attention until like 2029.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: He crushed that international trip.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: He absolutely did.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: It's a long train ride.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I just want to say that. I just want to
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: say that. All right. Here I go. What am I
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: going to get? Getting down there. Joe Manchin on Maria Bartiromo. Okay,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: here we go. On Sunday, Senator Joe Manchin appeared on
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Fox News with Maria Bartiromo and declined to describe himself
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: as a Democrat. Manchin said, I identify as an American.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: I'm an American through and through.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: He's transitioned.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Manchin also refused to say whether he'll run for re-election
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: in 2024. Okay, here's my take on this.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Let's hear it.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: I want to kind of, okay.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: I'm with Joe Manchin on this one.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Honestly, that was what I thought I was going to say.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, because here's why. So first of all, I was worried.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: So Manchin has ruled out running for governor in West
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Virginia again, and he's ruled out running for president. Remember,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: we thought he was flirting with that. So it's basically
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: either he's going to run for re-election as senator or
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: he's going to retire, right? If Joe Manchin runs for
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: re-election in West Virginia and he thinks calling himself an
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: independent and leaving the party is the best way for
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: him to get elected, and he is the guy who,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: you know, voted for Katonji Brown Jackson, all of Joe
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Biden's judges, the Inflation Reduction Act, the Joe Manchin Inflation
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Reduction Act, that's the biggest investment in climate, the guy
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: who voted for all those things, if it's either him
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: or some fucking Republican, which is basically every other scenario here,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: a Republican is going to win in West Virginia.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: A right-wing one.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: A right-wing one. If Joe Manchin doesn't run, I don't
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: see another Democrat winning that race, and so therefore we
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: lose a seat. So if Joe Manchin thinks the best
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: chance he has at winning is calling himself an independent,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I don't care what the fuck he calls himself. I
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: really don't.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: I agree with that. Do we think Greg Craig is
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: still upset that Kamala Harris hit his dog with her car?
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, just think about all the work that went
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: into that outfit. It wasn't long. It's really detailed.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: It's a thousand words.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: It's so thoughtful and specific about an idea that has
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: like one in a thousand chances of happening.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: How did Kamala Harris wrong Greg Craig? Yeah, what did
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: she do?
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: I will say it was annoying that, look, Joe Manchin's annoying.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: It was annoying to go on Maria Bartiromo's show right
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: after we learned that she was, you know, just platforming
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Sidney Powell and all these election liars.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: But no one has to like Joe Manchin.
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: All the all the baddest rumors politics. His polling numbers
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: go up in West Virginia when he attacks the Democratic
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: Party and Joe Biden. That's why he is currently picking
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: a fight with the Biden administration about implementing the electric
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: vehicle tax credit that his staff wrote into law.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: He's manufacturing fights wherever he can to create some space.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: Have at it, bud.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Again, just want your vote, man. Just want your vote.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Don't care about your lifestyle. Don't care about the crazy
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: shit you say. Houseboat Weekly. Don't care about the weird
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: shows you go on with the liars.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Some of America's most progressive champions are Houseboat Americans.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Just come into the Senate and cast your vote.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: He passed the Inflation Reduction Act. He voted for the judges.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: A lot of people said that couldn't happen. And it did.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Maybe some people on this program.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Not familiar.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: This one's for you.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: We're just going to do this so we can flip
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: it over.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: I got.
• 38:10
  Speaker 8: Oh, wait.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: We could probably.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Do you want to just stop?
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: Because I got the lab leak and I want to
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: He's been waiting for a lab leak.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: I got the lab leak.
• 38:15
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Do the lab leak. Here's the deal.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: You guys remember COVID, right?
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Unresolved debate about its origins. One theory is it jumped
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: from infected animals to humans naturally, most likely at a
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: market in Wuhan. Two is that COVID spread because of
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: mistake at a laboratory that was doing coronavirus research. So
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: over the weekend, the Wall Street Journal ran a story
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: with the headline, quote, lab leak most likely origin of
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: COVID-19 pandemic energy department says. Wow. Explosion on Twitter. Suck it, libs.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Retweets, faves, libs for some reason.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Go arrest Fauci.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Arrest him now. I told you the vaccine doesn't work.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: How did you get there?
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: So here's some context I want everyone to know. First,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: I'm sure people are wondering, what does the Department of
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Energy have to do with any of this? Great question.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: I had that question.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: The Energy Department oversees the national laboratories. They do biological research.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: And the Department of Energy updated their assessment based on
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: some new information that came to them in these labs
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: as part of this classified assessment. But here's the key context. Energy,
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: the Department of Energy was undecided on the origin of
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: COVID before. Now they believe with low confidence that it
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: came from a lab leak. Now the low confidence, those
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: words are very important because after Iraq and the WMD fiasco,
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: the intelligence community started saying how strongly they feel about
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: an assessment. So low confidence, shocker, is the lowest you
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: can get. So while the lab leak proponents think, aha,
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: case closed, libs have been owned, here's what you need
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: to know. Two agencies now believe COVID came from a
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: lab leak, the Department of Energy with low confidence, the
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: FBI with moderate confidence, The National Intelligence Council and four
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: agencies disagree. They assess with low confidence that COVID came
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: from natural transmission from an infected animal to agencies, including
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: the CIA. So the people charged with spying on the
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: Chinese government, they're undecided. And no one believes that this
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: was some sort of Chinese biological weapons research run amok.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: That is actually a very popular take on the right.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: So the bottom line is we don't really know. It's
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: still undecided. The government is split. In fact, they still
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: lean in favor of natural transmission. So I think hopefully
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: the DNI is going to release some sort of unclassified
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: assessment of this.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: One question for you. Why are you going to such
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: great lengths to defend the Chinese government?
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what's going on? What's going on with Tommy? Did
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: you send the balloon?
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Hey, Tommy, where were you when that balloon was in
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: the air? Were you on the floor with a kind
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: of remote, some kind of a, what are those things called?
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Do you guys know that tonight, Tuesday night, The Republicans
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: are holding their first oversight hearing on China in prime time.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: And what a coincidence that this leaked the weekend before.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, I'm sure this will come up.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: I don't understand. It's like, let's say it did come
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: from the lab. That doesn't prove a lot of people wrong.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: It proves like five Twitter people wrong. I don't like that.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: No one.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: No one except. I guess certain people got over their
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: skis a little bit and were like. If you say
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: it's from a lab, your tech.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Platforms were shutting down allegations that it was a lab
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: leak as disinformation. And I think that was clearly an overreach.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Probably shouldn't have done that.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they shouldn't have done that. I don't know why I'm,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: why am I, why am I in trouble?
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: I was always like, seems like it could be, seems
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: like it could be random bats. Seems like that lab
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: is pretty close to where this started. Raises some questions.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I never stopped thinking that.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: We don't know.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Time for the Fauci perp walk. Arrest Fauci. When we
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: come back, Lovett talks to Mehdi Hassan about his brand
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: new book, Win Every Argument. I co-wrote it.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Joining us now, he is the host of The Mehdi
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Hassan Show and author of the new book, Win Every Argument,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking. Mehdi, our
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: first debate topic, is it great to have you?
• 41:57
  Speaker 6: It is great to have me. Why would it not
• 41:58
  Speaker 6: be great to have me?
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: You put me on my heels. You start the book
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: with a kind of platonic ideal. A ship is standing
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: by in the harbor with a letter. If the ship
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: is dispatched, people live. If not, people die. Two interlocutors
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: face off in Athens before an audience. The audience votes
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: and decides who will live and who will die. But
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: we're not in Athens anymore. And a lot of debates
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: that play out on television, they're less about persuading the
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: audience and more about entertainment or the acuity of the
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: debater or performing for the side that's already persuaded. How
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: do you find value in in the art of debate
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: in that kind of media environment.
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: It's a great question. I think there is a lot
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: of entertainment.
• 42:40
  Speaker 9: There's a lot of performance that goes on and a
• 42:43
  Speaker 9: lot of what passes for debates on television. I can't
• 42:46
  Speaker 9: speak for other shows or other hosts. I can only
• 42:48
  Speaker 9: speak for my show. And we try and do really
• 42:51
  Speaker 9: interesting debates on our show in which I either moderate
• 42:54
  Speaker 9: them as a neutral, as neutral as I can be,
• 42:56
  Speaker 9: or debates in which I'm pushing a position I try
• 42:58
  Speaker 9: and get someone else on who disagrees with me. I
• 43:01
  Speaker 9: hate soggy consensus. It's funny, John, we're speaking on a
• 43:03
  Speaker 9: day in which I've been absolutely trolled all day online.
• 43:07
  Speaker 9: by right-wingers obsessed over the media suppression of the lab
• 43:10
  Speaker 9: leak theory. And I had to point out to some
• 43:12
  Speaker 9: of these gentle folks that I actually hosted a debate
• 43:15
  Speaker 9: on the lab leak theory between two scientists with different
• 43:17
  Speaker 9: views back in 2021, because I was actually interested. I
• 43:20
  Speaker 9: happen not to believe in the lab leak theory, but
• 43:23
  Speaker 9: I hosted a debate about it. So, you know, this
• 43:25
  Speaker 9: whole idea of, oh, we were suppressed. No, a lot
• 43:27
  Speaker 9: of us have been having debates in good faith. The
• 43:29
  Speaker 9: problem we have, John, that you identify there implicitly is
• 43:32
  Speaker 9: There's a lot of bad faith debating going on right
• 43:35
  Speaker 9: now in America, on TV, in our media. And I'm
• 43:38
  Speaker 9: interested in good faith debates, but I don't deny the
• 43:40
  Speaker 9: fact that there are a lot of bad faith folks
• 43:42
  Speaker 9: out there.
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: I interview many of them on my show.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting, right? I feel like there's two big problems.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: There's bad faith debating. And then there's, I think, I
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: think when you talk about the lab leak, I think
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: that there's a certain kind of, it's a good example
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: because people really talk past one another and they really
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: want to feel right and they want to seem right.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: And so what you see is a lot of people saying, look,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: it's now been proven. It was a lab leak. Everyone
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: lied except for me. Everyone was dishonest except for me.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Anyone who said anything in the year 2020 is a
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: liar except for me. And then you have to step
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: back and say, well, hold on a second. You're cherry
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: picking three or four dumb tweets from people who went
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: too far or got just as far, just got too
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: far with the data in the same way you did
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: in the other direction. How do you enter a debate?
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: Not necessarily people acting in pure bad faith, but people
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: who are so desperate to prove their rightness, they kind
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: of talk past one another.
• 44:38
  Speaker 9: It's a great question again. So I deal with that
• 44:40
  Speaker 9: in the book in two ways. Number one, it depends
• 44:41
  Speaker 9: what the goal of your debate is. I go into
• 44:44
  Speaker 9: different arguments, debates, discussions, whether it's with my spouse, my kids,
• 44:48
  Speaker 9: my employers, my colleagues, people on TV that I'm debating,
• 44:51
  Speaker 9: people I'm ideologically disagreeing with at a public forum. There's
• 44:55
  Speaker 9: different goals. Not everything is the same. I would say
• 44:57
  Speaker 9: two things in relation to your specific question. One is,
• 45:01
  Speaker 9: are you trying to convince the other person Or are
• 45:03
  Speaker 9: you trying to convince a third person? I think sometimes
• 45:06
  Speaker 9: we get too lost in trying to debate and convince
• 45:08
  Speaker 9: the other person. I'm often not trying to convince the
• 45:11
  Speaker 9: other person. I'm a TV host. I have my own
• 45:13
  Speaker 9: audience at home. I want to persuade the neutral, independent-minded
• 45:19
  Speaker 9: audience at home that the third party who is weighing
• 45:22
  Speaker 9: the evidence And when I interviewed John Bolton on my
• 45:25
  Speaker 9: show on the Iraq War, I wasn't trying to persuade
• 45:28
  Speaker 9: John Bolton that the Iraq War was wrong.
• 45:30
  Speaker 6: That would be madness.
• 45:31
  Speaker 9: I was trying to point out to my viewers, years later,
• 45:34
  Speaker 9: here's a person who still doesn't regret that he was
• 45:35
  Speaker 9: wrong about the Iraq War. So sometimes we gear all
• 45:39
  Speaker 9: our arguments in one direction when we really should be
• 45:40
  Speaker 9: focused on the audience. And the opening chapter of my
• 45:42
  Speaker 9: book is about winning an audience over, because that is
• 45:45
  Speaker 9: the number one goal. They are the judge and jury.
• 45:48
  Speaker 9: But in terms of your point about, let's say there
• 45:49
  Speaker 9: is no audience. You're sitting down with someone in private
• 45:52
  Speaker 9: or at a doorstep. I know a lot of politicians
• 45:54
  Speaker 9: listen to your show, John. If you're canvassing at a doorstep,
• 45:57
  Speaker 9: how do you get that one recalcitrant person who's not
• 45:59
  Speaker 9: a bad person, but has maybe overloaded on Sean Hannity
• 46:03
  Speaker 9: every night and doesn't quite get what needs to be gotten?
• 46:07
  Speaker 9: And there's another chapter I talk about in the book.
• 46:10
  Speaker 9: which is the importance of listening and empathy. And I
• 46:12
  Speaker 9: think that is where, if you really are trying to
• 46:14
  Speaker 9: persuade someone, not just trying to rhetorically beat them down
• 46:17
  Speaker 9: or dunk on them, not that there's anything wrong with
• 46:19
  Speaker 9: that in certain scenarios. But if it's in the case
• 46:21
  Speaker 9: that you're really trying to win someone over who could
• 46:23
  Speaker 9: be won over, it wasn't for the fact that you're
• 46:25
  Speaker 9: talking past each other, just throwing facts and figures and
• 46:28
  Speaker 9: stats is not going to work. You're going to have
• 46:29
  Speaker 9: to find a way to identify with that person. You're
• 46:31
  Speaker 9: going to have to find a common ground in terms
• 46:33
  Speaker 9: of your feelings, emotions, thoughts. And, you know, the scientists
• 46:37
  Speaker 9: have a word for this, which is perspective taking. The
• 46:39
  Speaker 9: social science is strong on this, that if you can
• 46:41
  Speaker 9: put yourself in the shoes of another, if you can
• 46:43
  Speaker 9: get them to walk in your shoes, much more likely
• 46:45
  Speaker 9: to find agreement. And I talk about that in the
• 46:47
  Speaker 9: chapter on listening and empathetic listening. People think debating is
• 46:49
  Speaker 9: all about speaking. I wish that were true. It's also
• 46:52
  Speaker 9: about listening, something I'm really bad at. But I try
• 46:54
  Speaker 9: and talk about in the book the importance of listening.
• 46:56
  Speaker 9: And I give the example of Bill Clinton. The most
• 46:59
  Speaker 9: famous example in American presidential history is at the 1992
• 47:01
  Speaker 9: town hall, where a woman in the audience in Richmond, Virginia,
• 47:05
  Speaker 9: asked the three candidates, because Ross Perot, yes, decided to
• 47:08
  Speaker 9: force his way onto that stage, and says, how does
• 47:11
  Speaker 9: the national debt affect you personally?
• 47:13
  Speaker 6: And George Bush Sr. first looks at his watch. because
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: he wants to go home.
• 47:17
  Speaker 9: And then when he answers the question, starts rambling on
• 47:19
  Speaker 9: about interest rates and about his visit to a black
• 47:21
  Speaker 9: church because the question was black, but doesn't actually answer
• 47:24
  Speaker 9: the question or even hear the question. What does Bill
• 47:26
  Speaker 9: Clinton do? Gets off his stool, walks towards the questioner,
• 47:30
  Speaker 9: looks her in the eye. He says, how does the
• 47:33
  Speaker 9: debt affect you?
• 47:35
  Speaker 6: Immediately, bond domain.
• 47:36
  Speaker 9: We have no idea whether that question was a Democrat,
• 47:38
  Speaker 9: Republican before and who she'd been planning to vote for.
• 47:41
  Speaker 9: But Clinton makes that immediate, instant emotional connection. So there
• 47:44
  Speaker 9: are ways when people are talking past each other, there
• 47:46
  Speaker 9: are methods that I try and outline in the book
• 47:48
  Speaker 9: that can work.
• 47:49
  Speaker 6: Now, are they silver bullets?
• 47:50
  Speaker 9: No, we live in a very polarized, very heated environment.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you get something to about whether you're trying to
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: convince someone or trying to convince someone who's listening. And
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: I do think, thankfully, we live in a world where
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: most people aren't cable news hosts. uh, what, what, uh,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: what a world that would.
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: Be, uh, company accepted.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: You're supposed to, of course, please. Obviously it goes without saying, but, uh,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people have, have, I think
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: we've all been trained by, by social media to be
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: a host, to be, to act like we are kind of, uh, uh,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: you know, using our platform to convince the people who
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: aren't in the debate, but are maybe watching the debate.
• 48:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: What are some tips you might have for people who,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: they're not trying to reach an audience. They are at
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: that Thanksgiving dinner and they don't want to get into
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: an argument with a loved one. They want to plant
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: a seed, right? They just want to, they just want
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: to kind of get, just open the door a little bit.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: What are, what are some, what have you learned about
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: the best ways to do that?
• 48:44
  Speaker 9: So I mentioned, I talk about empathetic listening in the
• 48:46
  Speaker 9: book and I mentioned that a moment ago, very important
• 48:48
  Speaker 9: to people want to be heard.
• 48:50
  Speaker 6: Uh, that's very important.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Um, did you mention listening? I wasn't paying attention.
• 48:53
  Speaker 6: No, I mean, that's a joke about listening. That's hilarious.
• 48:57
  Speaker 9: And we're sitting around the table at the Thanksgiving table,
• 48:59
  Speaker 9: and I talk about that in the book. Look, the
• 49:02
  Speaker 9: number one issue, and it might sound obvious to some people,
• 49:05
  Speaker 9: but you'd be amazed how many people don't do it,
• 49:07
  Speaker 9: including members of the Democratic political party at a national
• 49:10
  Speaker 9: and state level, which is appeal to people's hearts, not
• 49:13
  Speaker 9: their heads. We think that if we turn up at
• 49:15
  Speaker 9: the Thanksgiving table with 700 different statistics about the border crossings,
• 49:20
  Speaker 9: that will get Uncle Jack or whoever uncle is at
• 49:23
  Speaker 9: the table saying, kick them all out, build the wall.
• 49:26
  Speaker 9: That will win them over to the pro-immigration argument. That's
• 49:30
  Speaker 9: not what will work. In fact, you've got to find
• 49:32
  Speaker 9: other ways of appealing people. And Dale Carnegie said it
• 49:36
  Speaker 9: years ago, decades before I wrote a book on the subject,
• 49:38
  Speaker 9: that we're not dealing with rational.
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: Creatures when we're dealing with human beings. We're dealing with
• 49:41
  Speaker 6: emotional creatures.
• 49:43
  Speaker 9: So if you want to get through to people, especially
• 49:45
  Speaker 9: family members, especially on contentious issues, you've got to find
• 49:48
  Speaker 9: that emotional bond. You've got to tell a story, a
• 49:50
  Speaker 9: personal story. Make it personal, something that identifies to you
• 49:53
  Speaker 9: and them. You've got to also be able to kind
• 49:55
  Speaker 9: of show, not tell. You've got to also have some passion.
• 49:58
  Speaker 9: The number of people who present arguments in a kind
• 50:00
  Speaker 9: of dispassionate, robotic way because we're kind of all rational animals,
• 50:03
  Speaker 9: we think that's the way to convince people.
• 50:05
  Speaker 6: It's not. You've got to have some passion. You've got
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: to have some emotion.
• 50:08
  Speaker 9: You've got to have some energy in order to connect
• 50:10
  Speaker 9: with people because people make decisions instinctively with their gut,
• 50:14
  Speaker 9: with their heart, not just with their heads.
• 50:16
  Speaker 6: And I've said this for a while.
• 50:17
  Speaker 9: The reason why Democrats often get beaten up when it
• 50:20
  Speaker 9: comes to the messaging game is because Republicans, like it
• 50:22
  Speaker 9: or not, have found a way to rouse the emotions
• 50:25
  Speaker 9: of their base, not in a way I approve of,
• 50:26
  Speaker 9: in a kind of demagogic way, anger, paranoia, resentment, victimhood,
• 50:32
  Speaker 9: fear of the other.
• 50:33
  Speaker 6: But it works.
• 50:34
  Speaker 9: It gets people worked up. Against that, you can't turn
• 50:36
  Speaker 9: up with a 16-point policy paper. We saw that in 2016.
• 50:39
  Speaker 9: Donald Trump, very memorably, build the wall, ban Muslims, lock
• 50:43
  Speaker 9: her up, stuff that resonated, memorable, emotive, provocative. And Hillary Clinton,
• 50:48
  Speaker 9: bless her, great childcare plans, but not stuff that people
• 50:52
  Speaker 9: are going to turn up in their droves in the
• 50:54
  Speaker 9: crucial places where she needed them to turn up and
• 50:56
  Speaker 9: vote for her. So I do think that's been a
• 50:58
  Speaker 9: problem for a long time on the left. And I'm
• 51:00
  Speaker 9: from the UK, as you know, the Labour Party in
• 51:02
  Speaker 9: the UK has had the same problem, often seen as technocratic, bureaucratic, managerial,
• 51:07
  Speaker 9: not enough heart.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: What do you think are the, like, I think there's
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: a challenge that we face that's It's not just a
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: matter of tactics or strategy. Republicans compete on hate. They
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: compete on fear. They compete on these very powerful emotions.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: What are some examples or who are some politicians that
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: you think are finding an emotional resonance from the left
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: that isn't playing that kind of a game?
• 51:34
  Speaker 9: I mean, the obvious answer would be Bernie Sanders. Bernie
• 51:38
  Speaker 9: Sanders is out with a book now on capitalism. He's
• 51:40
  Speaker 9: a person who understands people are angry. And you have
• 51:43
  Speaker 9: to respond to that anger. You have to channel that anger.
• 51:46
  Speaker 9: Whatever word you want to use, populism is a very
• 51:48
  Speaker 9: loaded phrase. But he has a left populism to push
• 51:51
  Speaker 9: back against the right populism. Yes, be angry, but don't
• 51:53
  Speaker 9: be angry at the transgender kid. Don't be angry at
• 51:56
  Speaker 9: the Mexican migrant. Don't be angry at the Muslim under
• 51:58
  Speaker 9: the bed who's going to blow you up.
• 52:00
  Speaker 6: You think.
• 52:01
  Speaker 9: Be angry at the 0.1 percenters who have screwed you
• 52:04
  Speaker 9: over and screwed over your 401ks and screwed over your
• 52:06
  Speaker 9: health care system. And I think that is important. I
• 52:09
  Speaker 9: think showing, identifying that anger. You can't pretend that people
• 52:11
  Speaker 9: aren't angry in this country. It's what you do about it.
• 52:14
  Speaker 9: I would also say it's also not just about what
• 52:16
  Speaker 9: you're saying. It's how you're saying it.
• 52:18
  Speaker 6: I mean, I look and I look. I've said this
• 52:19
  Speaker 6: point many times. I'm going to say it again.
• 52:21
  Speaker 9: There have been six presidential elections in the 21st century.
• 52:23
  Speaker 9: Democrats have lost three and won three. And the three
• 52:27
  Speaker 9: they lost were Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, and John Kerry.
• 52:30
  Speaker 9: Smart people, many people would say good people, decent human
• 52:33
  Speaker 9: beings who wanted to improve the country would have done
• 52:36
  Speaker 9: had they won. But not exactly the greatest emotional speakers, orators.
• 52:41
  Speaker 6: And great respect to you, John. I know you worked
• 52:43
  Speaker 6: on a couple of those campaigns.
• 52:44
  Speaker 9: But those are people who did not rouse people to
• 52:48
  Speaker 9: get out to the polls. And you look at the
• 52:49
  Speaker 9: people who won, again, someone you did work for, Barack
• 52:51
  Speaker 9: Obama twice, Joe Biden. People who don't sound like they're
• 52:55
  Speaker 9: just throwing talking points at you, don't just sound, despite
• 52:58
  Speaker 9: all the Republican attacks on Obama, don't just sound like
• 53:00
  Speaker 9: they're reading from a teleprompter. Joe Biden is not a
• 53:02
  Speaker 9: great orator, but when he speaks, it's authentic, or at
• 53:06
  Speaker 9: least it's perceived as authentic.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting, though. I've thought about this, and I
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: had a feeling you would go to Bernie Sanders, and
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: I hear you on this kind of whatever, a version
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: of populism, but aimed at the right enemies, the right
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: kind of anger aimed in the right places. But if
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: you talk about Bill Clinton, you talk about Barack Obama,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: you talk about Joe Biden. I think one thing that
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: all three have in common is their campaigns very much
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: were not rooted in anger. They tend to be optimistic figures.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: They tend to appeal to people with a more kind
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: of hopeful, less combative tenor.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: That's been, I think, a big part of. the way
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: which Democrats have won. And so I'm just, I'm actually,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: I'm genuinely unsure, like, is.
• 53:47
  Speaker 6: It that Democrats need to- I'm gonna push back.
• 53:49
  Speaker 9: I'm gonna push back against you. On Barack Obama, for example,
• 53:51
  Speaker 9: you know Obama better than I do, obviously. But I
• 53:53
  Speaker 9: would say, if you go back to 2008, he didn't
• 53:56
  Speaker 9: beat Hillary Clinton just with hope. I think that's slightly rewritten.
• 53:59
  Speaker 9: He was pretty vicious in some of his campaign. You're
• 54:01
  Speaker 9: likable enough. He went after rallies. He went after a
• 54:04
  Speaker 9: with name. And I write a chapter in the book
• 54:05
  Speaker 9: on ad hominem attacks. I don't think there's anything wrong
• 54:08
  Speaker 9: with ad hominem attacks. You can go after the credibility
• 54:10
  Speaker 9: of your opponent, call them out. Barack Obama did that.
• 54:12
  Speaker 9: When he went after Mitt Romney, he was vicious in
• 54:15
  Speaker 9: his Bain attacks. He was so vicious in his Bain
• 54:17
  Speaker 9: attacks that Cory Booker came out and tried to disown
• 54:19
  Speaker 9: him because we were being too mean to Bain. So
• 54:23
  Speaker 9: I'm not quite sure. I get your point, but I'm
• 54:24
  Speaker 9: not sure that's quite the summary of Barack Obama. Look,
• 54:27
  Speaker 9: let's move away from Bernie Sanders. My point is not
• 54:29
  Speaker 9: even about left or right. I don't care what you're selling.
• 54:32
  Speaker 9: It's about a style, a tone of voice, an approach
• 54:35
  Speaker 9: to rhetoric. So let me give you another example. Ruben
• 54:36
  Speaker 9: Gallego is someone running for office now in Arizona. I
• 54:39
  Speaker 9: thought his campaign ad where he launched his campaign was
• 54:42
  Speaker 9: a fantastic ad in terms of, again, channeling some of
• 54:44
  Speaker 9: that anger implicitly, both at Republicans and against Kyrsten Sinema.
• 54:48
  Speaker 6: There's a lot of Eric Swalwell. No one would say
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: Eric Swalwell.
• 54:50
  Speaker 9: I don't think Eric Swalwell would describe himself as a
• 54:52
  Speaker 9: Bernie lefty socialist. But he's someone I often see just
• 54:56
  Speaker 9: swinging punches, rhetorical punches at the Republicans, both on social
• 54:59
  Speaker 9: media and in some of his very nifty ads.
• 55:01
  Speaker 6: I would like to see more of that.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and I agree. I'm actually not, I don't
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: mean it in an ideological sense. I actually just am
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: trying to parse out there are times where it looks like, hey,
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: the way you take on Trumpism or this kind of
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: right-wing populism is we need to have a kind of
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: populism and we need to have a righteous fury of
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: our own. But then there are also, I think generally speaking,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I hear you on the points about the various kinds of,
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: I think, tough attacks that people like President Biden and
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: President Obama and even President Clinton have made, but for
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: the most part, viewing it as their job to create
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: a kind of a hopeful alternative.
• 55:35
  Speaker 6: I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that, first of all,
• 55:38
  Speaker 6: we're living in different times.
• 55:39
  Speaker 9: Bill Clinton was not facing the same political environment that
• 55:41
  Speaker 9: a Democrat today is facing, or a media environment.
• 55:44
  Speaker 6: The anger is very different. You're right. Of course, you
• 55:47
  Speaker 6: need a hopeful, optimistic message.
• 55:49
  Speaker 9: I talk about that in the very final chapter of
• 55:52
  Speaker 9: the book when I talk about how you bring your
• 55:54
  Speaker 9: argument to a close, the grand finale.
• 55:56
  Speaker 6: And I give the examples. I give other examples.
• 55:58
  Speaker 9: For example, Winston Churchill, who was seen as someone who
• 56:01
  Speaker 9: inspired people, despite having been a very poor orator himself
• 56:04
  Speaker 9: as a younger man, he used to sit in the
• 56:05
  Speaker 9: bathtub and practice out loud speaking. We remember him as
• 56:08
  Speaker 9: the great World War II rhetorician. And he was very
• 56:11
  Speaker 9: poor orator in his 20s and 30s. He had a
• 56:13
  Speaker 9: stutter that he had to fight with.
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: He had a hopeful message.
• 56:16
  Speaker 9: It wasn't just his delivery, which is very unique. But
• 56:18
  Speaker 9: of course, it was an optimistic message, one that we
• 56:20
  Speaker 9: will defy the odds, one that we will be victorious,
• 56:22
  Speaker 9: one that we will see the post-war promised land.
• 56:26
  Speaker 6: And I agree with you. You need some of that, too.
• 56:28
  Speaker 9: You do need to, as I come back to what
• 56:30
  Speaker 9: we said earlier, you need to rouse people emotionally. Liberals
• 56:32
  Speaker 9: and progressives have to decide which emotions they want to rouse.
• 56:36
  Speaker 9: So for example, when I mentioned immigration, you're arguing with
• 56:39
  Speaker 9: your uncle at the immigration table. The emotions that have
• 56:42
  Speaker 9: been activated in him are fear and loathing, paranoia. They're
• 56:46
  Speaker 9: coming to replace us, to borrow a Fox and Nazi phrase.
• 56:51
  Speaker 9: And you need to push back with, actually, we're America.
• 56:54
  Speaker 9: We're so much better than this. This is what this
• 56:56
  Speaker 9: country was built on. This is what many of our
• 56:58
  Speaker 9: own forefathers, maybe members of our family around the table
• 57:01
  Speaker 9: who were immigrants or children of immigrants. This is about
• 57:04
  Speaker 9: building a common future through new blood and new energy
• 57:08
  Speaker 9: and a common purpose. And I think, you know, that
• 57:11
  Speaker 9: is a message that actually works. And we've seen that
• 57:12
  Speaker 9: in the polling, actually, in terms of some of the
• 57:14
  Speaker 9: immigration numbers have turned around.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: So you mentioned the media environment. And that, of course,
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: would be no place better than Fox to deliver that
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: kind of paranoia directly to people's brains. President Biden, there
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: was a bit of a kerfuffle around the Super Bowl
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: as to whether or not he would go on a
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Fox-affiliated outfit. Putting that specific example aside, where do you
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: fall on this question as to whether or not progressives
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: and Democratic politicians should engage with Fox News? On the
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: one hand, it legitimizes the propaganda apparatus. On the other,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: if you don't go, nobody's speaking. And Pete Buttigieg, he
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: kicks ass when he goes on Fox.
• 57:50
  Speaker 9: So I am of the Elizabeth Warren school that you
• 57:52
  Speaker 9: shouldn't go on Fox. I am not a fan of that.
• 57:56
  Speaker 9: Bernie Sanders does it. Pete Buttigieg does it. They both
• 57:58
  Speaker 9: do it very well. No denying that.
• 58:01
  Speaker 6: But I do believe it is a propaganda organization. I
• 58:04
  Speaker 6: refuse to call it Fox News.
• 58:06
  Speaker 9: We're speaking on a day where the latest Rupert Murdoch
• 58:09
  Speaker 9: deposition in the Dominion trial has just been released and
• 58:13
  Speaker 9: gotten out. And we're seeing what he said in private
• 58:15
  Speaker 9: versus what he said in public. And it's exactly the same.
• 58:17
  Speaker 9: as Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham with their text,
• 58:19
  Speaker 9: which is they say completely the opposite in private. They're
• 58:22
  Speaker 9: not interested in news. I think there's a line from
• 58:24
  Speaker 9: Murdoch that we're not red or blue, we're about green,
• 58:26
  Speaker 9: which I thought was brutally honest.
• 58:27
  Speaker 6: In a private email.
• 58:29
  Speaker 9: And I just think, what are you doing going on
• 58:32
  Speaker 9: Fox legitimizing an organization which pushes white supremacy evening after
• 58:37
  Speaker 9: evening on shows like Tucker Carlson? As someone who is
• 58:39
  Speaker 9: a brown immigrant with brown Muslim kids, I find it
• 58:42
  Speaker 9: personally offensive for anyone who thinks that that is a
• 58:45
  Speaker 9: news operation. And people say, well, There's a big audience.
• 58:47
  Speaker 9: We've got to get the eyeballs. Well, Alex Jones has
• 58:49
  Speaker 9: a big audience. Why not go on Infowars? Where do
• 58:51
  Speaker 9: you draw the line? Alex Jones has a huge audience,
• 58:53
  Speaker 9: whether we like it or not.
• 58:55
  Speaker 6: Why not go on there?
• 58:55
  Speaker 9: If you want to get to new audiences, why not
• 58:57
  Speaker 9: do the Stormfront website? That's an audience that others can't reach.
• 59:00
  Speaker 9: I mean, I think it's a very slippery slope to
• 59:02
  Speaker 9: go down and to say, well, that's where.
• 59:03
  Speaker 6: The eyeballs are. I think if you want to win
• 59:05
  Speaker 6: those arguments, you want to win over those voters, do
• 59:07
  Speaker 6: it on the ground. Do it the old fashioned way.
• 59:09
  Speaker 9: Try and build up a political machine that can still
• 59:11
  Speaker 9: canvas in left behind areas. Look at the East Palestine debacle.
• 59:15
  Speaker 9: As cynical as the right wing attacks were, as dishonest
• 59:18
  Speaker 9: as Donald Trump's visit was, the reality is he did
• 59:20
  Speaker 9: show up. And people did say, hey, I saw the
• 59:23
  Speaker 9: quotes from people in Ohio in that place saying, you came,
• 59:27
  Speaker 9: you didn't forget us. Now, we know that's bullshit. You
• 59:29
  Speaker 9: and I know that's bullshit. It's a vacuum that's filled
• 59:31
  Speaker 9: on the ground. So there are other ways of reaching
• 59:34
  Speaker 9: conservative voters. I don't believe that helping to prop up
• 59:37
  Speaker 9: this figment of imagination that Fox is a news organization.
• 59:41
  Speaker 6: People say, well, even if you don't go on, that
• 59:42
  Speaker 6: doesn't affect them. Actually, it does.
• 59:44
  Speaker 9: Fox is obsessed with trying to get legitimacy and mainstream credibility.
• 59:48
  Speaker 9: And I think you see that in the White House
• 59:49
  Speaker 9: briefing room. I think you see that in their advertising.
• 59:51
  Speaker 9: I think you see that in their guest selection.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: So you've recently had a bit of a revelation. You
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: were very critical of President Biden when he was a candidate.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: But apparently, you've seen the neolib light. You gave an
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: interview where you said, And this is exact quote, the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: most impressive president in your lifetime. He is virile and
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: extremely charismatic in a sexual way.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 6: Now, exact quote was that? Wow.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Most of that's exactly right.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 6: I have a chapter on receipts in my book and
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 6: you didn't bring any receipts just now.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: You did. You did say most impressive president in your lifetime. Now,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: you have this you have a president who has exceeded
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: expectations in virtually every way except one, which is that
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: he has continued to get older. If the debate over
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Biden and whether or not he should run again, whether
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: or not he should win again, redounds to this question
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: of age. As a as our debate expert, what is
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: the best way for Democrats to win that argument?
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 6: It's a great question.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 9: Let me just say, if we were in a debate
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 9: and I was trying to beat you up, which I'm not,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 9: of course, I would say that you only read part
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 9: of the quote. Even your made up quote ended too
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 9: early because I did go on to say he is
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 9: the most impressive president of my lifetime. It's a very
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 9: low bar given George W. Bush, Donald Trump, etc.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: etc.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 9: But even compared to the Democratic gods, Bill Clinton and
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 9: Barack Obama, I think Joe Biden has definitely achieved more legislatively.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 9: And even what you just mentioned a moment ago, refusing
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 9: to go on Fox. Joe Biden did that. So look,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 9: I give him plaudits. That doesn't mean I'm a kind
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 9: of fanboy. I think his immigration stuff has been awful.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 9: I think he's dropped the ball on COVID in recent months.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 9: There's many Israel, Palestine. He's as horrific as every previous president.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 9: So I've got a lot of criticism still. But he's
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 9: clearly made the case to be the Democratic candidate again.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 6: Yes, you're right. There's no doubt that age is the
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 6: biggest problem.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 5: With him.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 6: What do you do about age? What is the argument
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 6: you make for age?
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 9: I think the argument, if I was him, and I'm
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 9: not saying I support this argument, but if you had
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 9: to make the argument for age, I would just plaster
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 9: my visit to Ukraine over every campaign ad and every answer.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 6: I would say, all right, yes, I'm old, but Mr.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 9: Interview, Would you like to get on a 10-hour train
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 9: journey in a secret flight and wander around a war
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 9: zone as the first president in modern American history to
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 9: do so without American military support.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 6: In that war zone?
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 9: I would play the Ukraine card, which was a pretty
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 9: effective card that he played recently.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 6: Seems to be working.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 9: Some of his poll numbers look better. But look, age
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 9: is a real problem. I would also point out Donald
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 9: Trump will be close to 80 or in his 80s
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 9: if he were to run, win, and serve a second term.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 9: Nikki Haley's been playing the age card against Trump and Biden.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 9: Not sure how that's working out for a given Rhonda
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 9: Sanders is younger than her. So I think the age
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 9: argument only goes so far because don't forget some of us,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 9: including myself, and I'll hold my hands up here and
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 9: concede this. I have a chapter on concessions in the book.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 6: I'm going to concede.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 9: I was wrong about Biden's age in 2020. I thought
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 9: he was too old in 2020. I was like, is
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 9: he all there?
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 6: Is he sunsetting?
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 9: When he made some of the gaffes and debates about
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 9: record players, I was one of the people going, is
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 9: this really the guy you want going up? And like
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 9: I said, he proved me wrong on many issues. So
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 9: I think if I was him, I would push Ukraine.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 9: I would push a successful record. And I would push, well,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 9: Donald Trump will be equally old. And I do everything
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 9: in threes, as I point out in the book.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: I'm glad. And it works. I'm glad you referenced how
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: we might have felt a little bit in 2020, because
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: I'm of two minds of this, too, because it's like, listen,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: this would be the oldest person to ever be sworn
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: in as president. But at the same time, I felt
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: like there was a certain kind of engaged progressive who
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: was really paying attention, who was put off by stumbles,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: worried about his age. And then the critics would have
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: such a much lower evaluation of Joe Biden's as a
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: debater than the than the typical person watching. And what
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: it was. So I actually think of like, how do we,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: it's like, how do you, how do you put yourselves
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: in the shoes of the kind of person that maybe
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: isn't paying as close enough attention or close as close
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: attention as we would?
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 9: I actually think we're over-focused on, I think it actually
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 9: matters who the Republican opponent is.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 6: If he's up against Trump, I think he has a
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 6: good chance of winning again.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 9: Why not? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 9: he's up against this, I do think it will be tough.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 9: I think if you're up against this, a different type
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 9: of candidate. Not that I'm one of these people who
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 9: thinks DeSantis is great, but I think he's a deeply
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 9: overrated politician with a glass drawer. But DeSantis will have
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 9: advantages that Trump doesn't have and will be able to
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 9: play the youth against old age card. Don't forget, I
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 9: talk about this in the book, you've always got.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 6: The Ronald Reagan card.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 9: Reagan was the person who dealt with this the most
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 9: successful memorable way in American history in a debate When
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 9: the question was thrown at him about his age, he
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 9: made fun of Walter Mondale and said, I won't use
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 9: his youth and inexperience against him. It was a great zinger.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 9: I include it in the book, in the chapter on zingers,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 9: as much as I loathe Reagan.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 6: I love that line.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 9: And I think people have done it before. So I
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 9: don't necessarily think that Biden's age is going to be
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 9: the deal breaker. I think it will be a problem.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 9: I think it will be a big problem against the
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 9: Ron DeSantis, not against Donald Trump. But I don't think
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 9: that's what's going to decide 2024. My worry about 2024
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 9: is how strong the fascists are going to be at
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 9: a local and state level in terms of corrupting our
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 9: election process and then starting an insurrection after the next election.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about the fascists for a second. So we're
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: in the midst of this anti-trans backlash that's being fomented
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: by a bunch of right-wing politicians who are trying to
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: pass anti-trans laws. But one step away from them, you
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: have the J.K. Rowlings of the world who are offended
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: by the term of transphobe while kind of pushing misinformation
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: and kind of otherizing trans people. You have right-wing comedians,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: even people that wouldn't consider themselves conservatives, embracing a kind
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: of conservative aesthetic, your Dave Chappelle's. You have journalistic figures
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: who consider themselves objective, teaching the controversy, wondering if this
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: whole gender thing has gone too far. You have all
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: these different factions making noise, and you have progressives, you
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: have doctors, you have experts, you have trans people trying
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: to take on all these factions at once. When do
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: you try to debate to win these arguments on points?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: Or when do you feel like you have to accept
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: that you're Lucy with the chocolates and the only way
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: to win is not to play, to kind of stop
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: trying to win these point by point arguments with people
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: who don't care about the truth and go for the
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: millions of people who are maybe just starting to understand
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: this issue at all?
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 9: It's a great question, and it's something I've struggled with
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 9: for a long time. I am not transgender, but I
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 9: am Muslim. So I know what it's like to be
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 9: a minority that's feared and loathed and becomes a political cudgel.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 9: Because for 20 years, that has been the Muslim community
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 9: since 9-11, certainly. You saw Donald Trump get elected on
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 9: the back of a Muslim ban. And the same question
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 9: was persisting then. Do you debate this stuff, or do
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 9: you say my identity, my existence is not up for debate?
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 6: And I think I would, you know, who am I?
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 9: I'm not going to speak on behalf of transgender community,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 9: but what I would say as a Muslim person who
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 9: feels very worried about the hate field attacks on a
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 9: certain community in our midst, the way that they've been
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 9: turned into political football, my advice would be is again,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 9: to go back to the start of our conversation, separate
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 9: this out. Are you going to go and debate Matt
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 9: Walsh on the daily wire on transgender kids?
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 6: No, there's just no point to that.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 9: I keep telling interviewers this as I talk about my book.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 9: If I wrote the book again, if I wrote a sequel,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 9: I would add a chapter that I feel I missed,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 9: which is when to walk away from an argument. There's
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 9: certain people you don't argue with because it's not a
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 9: good faith argument because they're just trolls or they're just bigots.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 9: I won't have Marjorie Taylor Greene on my show, even
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 9: if she wanted to come on and said, I'll give
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 9: you great viral moments.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 8: No.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 6: What would be achieved from that? Nothing. She's not a
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 6: good faith actor. She's a fantasist and a grifter. Who's your,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 6: what's your goal? You want to go debate Matt Wolfe? No,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 6: don't debate Lucy and the football, as you said.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 9: But are there millions of Americans out there who want
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 9: to understand more about gender affirming care, who want to
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 9: understand more about whether their kids are going to be
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 9: disadvantaged in school because of the rules on which gender
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 9: can play which sports? Yeah, there are millions of Americans
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 9: who have those concerns, including millions of Democrats, liberals, and
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 9: self-proclaimed progressives.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 6: That's just a fact.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 9: This is new stuff for a lot of people. So
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 9: should you be going out there and persuading those people?
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 9: Should you be engaged in good faith debate? If you
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 9: can identify good faith people to debate with, yes. And again,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 9: to use the Muslim analogy, would I go on a
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 9: show on Fox to debate them?
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 6: Muslim ban? No. But would I have a good faith.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 9: Discussion with someone on NPR about the terrorist threat from
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 9: Muslim groups? And are Muslims doing enough to tackle terrorism
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 9: in their midst was a question I was asked 7,000
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 9: times post 9-11. Yeah, I went and did those discussions
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 9: on the BBC, on CNN, et cetera. So you've got
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 9: to separate it out. What is the good faith part
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 9: of the argument? Who are the convincibles and the persuadables?
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 9: And who are the bigots and the grifters and the
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 9: attention seekers?
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 6: Don't debate with them. Do debate with the others.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 9: That's as simply as I can put it from my
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 9: own perspective as a minority journalist.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: There's just the old expression, don't mud wrestle a pig.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: You'll get dirty and they'll like it.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 6: They'll enjoy it indeed.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: You've given us a lot of your time, but I
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: would be remiss if I didn't end with a debate.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: Can we please put on the screen how a dog
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: would wear pants? There are two ways here representing how
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: a dog would wear pants. For those, because it's an
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: audio medium, I'll say one of them is the pants
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: are halfway up the body covering all four legs, or
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: the pants are the back half of the body just
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: covering the back legs. Can you choose a side and
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: make an argument and defeat me when I argue the alternative?
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 6: Well, you pick your side first and I'll just put,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 6: I'll argue the other. You go first.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to go.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 6: I say in the book, sometimes you want to go first.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 6: Sometimes you want to go last.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: I want to go last.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: I am going to argue that a dog would wear
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: pants as on the left, as in all four legs.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: I chose the hardest.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: So would you like me to go first or would
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: you like, should I? Here's my point. I understand that
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: we live in a world where people confuse aesthetics and morals.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: I understand why aesthetically someone like Mehdi would assume that
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: a dog would wear pants just on their hind legs.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: I agree it looks more like the way pants should
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: be worn. But that's not how I approach this problem,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: all right? I see a dog with four legs, and
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: I believe for a dog to wear pants, all four
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: legs should be in pants. If I was only wearing
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: pants on half my legs, I would look ridiculous. But
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: it is because you think it is more important that
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: a dog look like a person than a dog wear
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: pants the way a dog would wear pants inside of
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: a dog culture, that you've adopted this ridiculous position.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 9: I think it's, I would just say one thing. This
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 9: is a show, I mean, you've had more time to
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 9: think about this argument, but let me just say in
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 9: the few seconds that I have, that this is a
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 9: show with liberal listeners. And I think liberals understand that
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 9: it's deeply offensive to push an argument that is based
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 9: on a separate but equal approach to life. I think
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 9: separate but equal is something we put behind us. I
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 9: think the dog wants to be equal with man. Dog
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 9: is man's best friend. The idea that you would put
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 9: a dog in pants with his owner, but you would
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 9: not allow the dog to wear pants in the style
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 9: of his owner. And to say that that apartheid situation
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 9: is something that I could endorse?
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 6: I believe in equality. Look, values matter here. It's all
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 6: about values.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: I want equality.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 6: I want equality. I don't want separate but equal, John.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 9: If that's what you want to push, if that's what
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 9: the audience wants to go for, you take separate but equal.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 6: I'm going to take.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: The next time I see you, I'm going to make
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: two points, one with my left and one with my right.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 9: And you'll settle because as I say in the book,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 9: you have to have three points always.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: I also held up the hands in the wrong order.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: I held up the hands in the wrong order. Mehdi Hassan,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for your time. The book is
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: Win Every Argument... The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking. Mehdi,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: I would say that for our first topic, was it
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: great to have you? I think the answer was yes.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: I think it was.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: I think you won that argument too.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 6: I appreciate it, John. It's been a pleasure.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 9: And I won't say that your co-host told me to
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 9: rhetorically beat you up because that would be true.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 5: Wow. Wow.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: Well, you know what?
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: I made it.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: I survived the debate.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 6: You were fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 9: And it was very clear to me that you read
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 9: the entire book and ran circles around me.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: Thanks a lot. I could almost ask you the unprepared
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: Charlie Rose question, which is, your book, why now?
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 9: Oh, I do book interviews for a living. Trust me, John,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 9: I've been on the other side of this. The number
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 9: of times I'm wondering, are they going to ask me,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 9: have I read page 172 of the book?
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 6: And I'm petrified of that moment.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: The rudest question you can ask a person is, have
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: you read my book? It's an unacceptable question.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 6: I read every word. I'm not asking you.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: I read every goddamn word.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 6: Because you were so damn good today.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: It's a dog-eared copy by my bed. It got wet
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: in the rain, you know?
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 6: If it's by your bed, I'll put you to sleep
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 6: every night.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: Matty, thank you so much. This is great.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 6: Thanks, John.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, before we go, we've got some important legal wrangling
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: to attend to.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: Since you have the best legal credentials here with your
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: impressive LSAT score, did you write this, Tom?
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 6: Didn't.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: Fuck, why am I reading this? We're going to let
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: you take us through it. Go ahead.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: Last week, Marjorie Taylor Greene tweeted, we need a national divorce.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: We need to separate by red states and blue states
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: and shrink the federal government. Everyone I talk to says this.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: From the sick and disgusting woke culture issues shoved down
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: our throats to the Democrats' traitorous America last policies, we
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: are done. We can all agree that the left will
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: gladly keep disgusting woke culture in the divorce. But what
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: about everything else? John Tommy and I have decided we
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: are going to take the amicable route and fairly split
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: things up with Marjorie Taylor Greene. There's no need to
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: get a judge or submarine involved. We can settle this ourselves.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: I'll run through a list of items and our job
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: will be to find a way to amicably split them
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: So that we can settle this without a kind of
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: long and acrimonious... Yeah, joint custody.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: Sure, sure.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: All right, so I think we're going to use that whiteboard.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, there's a whiteboard involved?
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Katie Porter, here in spirit.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: Here's how it works. We are trying to amicably split.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to give us things to split up.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: And obviously we want to do well for ourselves as
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: blue Americans, but we also are trying to be fair. Okay?
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: So are we playing as blue Americans or are we
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: playing as sort of our fair people? Yeah, like judges.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: Um, I think we're, um, we're like the mainstream media.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: We're from the cities, but we're trying to pretend we're fair.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 6: Good.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: Good answer.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: Keep that in.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: Great answer.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: All right, here we go. Perfect.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: Uh, first up we have the Chris's Chris Pine, Chris Evans,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: Chris Hemsworth, Chris Pratt.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: Um, I think we obviously give them Chris Pratt.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they get Pratt. They get Pratt. Um, uh, I
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: want Evans. It's important to me that we get Evans.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: So now we've got Chris Prine and we've got Chris Hemsworth.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: I don't have a strong opinion between those two.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: I think we want Hemsworth.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: You think we want Hemsworth?
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's giving them
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: a great Chris too.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: Hemsworth. And they're going to get Pine.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: Can we give them Army Hammer? He just feels like
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: he goes in this bucket.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: And would fit in over there. Oh, I spelled Army wrong.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's okay.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know how.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: He can't afford to learn anymore.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: Army Hammer.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: Good. Thank you.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: Okay. Now, Chili's, Friday's, Bucca di Beppo, and Cheesecake Factory.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 9: Okay.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: I have a pitch.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: Which is I will do anything to keep Cheesecake Factory.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I'm with you. Okay. I would not deny that.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 3: I like Chili's.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: How is the Outback Steakhouse not in that list? Okay.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: Can we keep it? How about this? I think we
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: should give them Chili's, Friday's, and Bucca di Beppo. Because
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: in a lot of these red states, that's going to
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: be the best Italian food they can get. And then
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: we get Outback and we get cheesecake.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the only problem is that Chili's and TGI Friday's
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: both have the best honey mustard of any chain restaurant.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: You're the most basic motherfucker I've ever met. I know.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: I'm a purple American, Tommy.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, Jesus.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: I want an innovation party.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: He worships an awesome god in the Blue Saints.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: You know what?
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 6: Fine.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: They get Friday's.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: We'll get Chili's.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: I'm happy with this. I don't want Bucca di Beppo.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: They can have Bucca. They can have Bucca. And we're
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: going to get Outback.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: But I do think because we're getting Cheesecake Factory, I'm
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: just going to throw in Panera Bread.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 3: I think that's fair. Because it sucks. And that's right.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: Because it fucking sucks.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: Are we going to get the Olive Garden?
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 6: Sure.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: That's our Italian. Yeah. We'll get Olive Garden.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: Unlimited bread.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: Because they don't want anywhere where you're family.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: White Lotus and Yellowstone. I feel like this is a bit.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: Of a gimme. Yeah, what was that?
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: Come on.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I just wanted an easy one. And White Lotus.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: Everyone wants on that one.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. They don't watch White Lotus. McDonald's and
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: Taco Bell. McDonald's and Taco Bell.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: I think they should....
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: They're going to demand McDonald's. Yeah, they don't want Taco Bell.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: It was feted state dinners. It's a win for them,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: but I'm going to agree. I'm not happy about it.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say we get Taco Bell.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: If they got Taco Bell, they would make racist.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 6: Jokes about it.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: Can we get the Yum brand triumvirate?
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's great. We can get the Pizza Hut.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: You know what, though? They got to get the KFC.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: Bummer.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: They got to get the KFC.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: They get the KFC? Well, we're going to get Popeye's.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: We're going to get Popeye's.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: We're going to get Popeye's.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: We're going to get Popeye's.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: What else we got?
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: That's Louisiana done right. That's an old white guy with
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: a mustache. All right. So it checks out. The feeling
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: of having no emails in your inbox versus the feeling
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: of having a fully charged cell phone and a dog
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: that has peed and pooped.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 6: Oh.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. Okay.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: We'll never get to feel one of those again.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 3: I will never again have a fully out inbox.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: I will never delete all my emails or read them all.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: So they get in the inbox?
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: We need the dog.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: They're going to get inbox zero.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: Also my phone. I'm not going to charge my phone.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: Phone.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: Have you ever read this podcast offline?
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 5: Poop.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: Charged. etc.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: That didn't make sense, but you get the gist. All right.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: This is going to be a tough one. And I
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: deputize you as being able to discuss this.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, it seems to get us into trouble.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: Well, LGBT. We're just going to try to figure out.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: That's a divorce. It sucks. That's why divorce is so horrible.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: People end up in places they don't want to be.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: And I have a- You.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: Have to split it evenly?
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 7: No.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: No, there's too many, there's five letters.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: No, no.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: They're not, these, no. Here's my proposal.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: They're just going to get- I can't wait to argue
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: with this.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: They're getting the lesbians, and we're getting everything else. Q, I, A,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: two spirits, etc. This is because of trucks and living
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: in South. That's the choice they made.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: Pass.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: That's the choice they made. I'm getting a thumbs down
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: from an L on the couch. I'm getting an L from...
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: I'm getting a big thumbs down. Please direct all comments.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: All right. That was a tough one. All right. Message box, playbook,
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: and punch bowl.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: We obviously get message box. Dan would not wonder what
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: to do there. We got to get message box. Could
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: you measure them reading message box? Red States get playbook.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: They can have playbook.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: They already have it.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: They can have playbook.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: We get Punchbowl.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: We're taking Punchbowl.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: Substantive.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: We're taking Punchbowl.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, Punchbowl is like the Kevin McCarthy mouthpiece of choice,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: so I don't know if.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but at least they.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I like what he's thinking.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's good.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: All right. The Great Lakes and the Grand Canyon.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like there's more value to having
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: the Great Lakes. Oh, yeah.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: Water shortages.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: Just like a... Colorado and stuff. Big thing that people
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: stare in.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: All right, so we're going to take... The Great Lakes.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 3: Is that what that is?
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: There's five of them, right?
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Is that right?
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: That's not bad.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: Which one's Huron?
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: Huron, Superior, Ontario, Erie.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: That's vaguely what they look like. Wow.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right?
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: And then they're going to get the Grand Canyon.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 3: Draw that. Very well done.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: All right. I feel pretty good about what we have.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we did a good job. I think,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: let's see. Let's see, how do we do? The Red
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: States got Chris Pratt, Chris Pine, Armie Hammer.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: Who gets the awesome gods? Well, we do worship an
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: awesome God in the blue states.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 8: That's why.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: So I think that we'll get.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: We need to.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: Throw this over to the Ben Shapiro show and see
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: if he thinks it's fair.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair. Bucca di Beppo, they get Panera Bread.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: They get Yellowstone. They love that. They do get McDonald's.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: That's a huge win.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: Those are big.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: Those are great fries. KFC, they get Inbox Zero and
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: they get Lesbians. So their furniture is going to all work.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: You know, everything's going to be nice and all the
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: wood's going to be well sanded. You know, unlike on
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: our side, we're fucked. Gays crashing into each other. A
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: bunch of gay people crashing into a Taco Bell.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Mehdi. Thanks to the Cocaine Bear.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: We're reading message box on our phones.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 3: Thanks to Joe Biden and Barack Obama.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Joe Biden and Barack Obama. And thanks to
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: lesbians for taking one for the team.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: Have a great one, everybody.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: Bye. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: Gardner Bernstein. Our producers are Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: Charlotte Landis sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: Ari Schwartz, Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, and Amelia Montuth. Our episodes are uploaded as
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: videos at youtube.com slash podsaveamerica.