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Anna Wintour's biographer Amy Odell on John Galliano's Met cancellation · The Morning Edition

• 0:06
  S1: When fashion designer John Galliano announced yesterday that he would
• 0:10
  S1: step away from being honored with a retrospective at next
• 0:13
  S1: year's illustrious Met Gala, the so-called Oscars of the fashion world.
• 0:18
  S1: It exposed an uncomfortable truth about the industry because many
• 0:23
  S1: Hail John Galliano as one of modern history's most important
• 0:27
  S1: fashion designers.
• 0:29
  S2: The first time I met John Galliano, I thought, I
• 0:35
  S2: can't allow this moment to pass.
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  S3: Brilliant, exuberant, joyful, fun.
• 0:42
  S4: I thought that the way he mixes the the imagination
• 0:46
  S4: and at the same time have the clothes is really fantastic.
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  S1: But he is also, as fashion insider Amy Odell puts it,
• 0:53
  S1: the industry's most famous anti-Semite. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. And
• 0:59
  S1: you're listening to The Morning Edition from The Age and
• 1:02
  S1: the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, Amy Odell, author of Anna,
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  S1: a biography of former Vogue editor in chief Anna Wintour
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  S1: and host of the Back Row podcast, on whether John
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  S1: Galliano's cancelation was fair and if it operates as a
• 1:17
  S1: wider rebuke to an industry known for tolerating bad behavior.
• 1:26
  S5: Amy, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:28
  S6: Thank you for having me.
• 1:30
  S5: Okay. Walk us through this. Why was this John Galliano
• 1:33
  S5: retrospective canceled? And what has the reaction been to it,
• 1:36
  S5: both in New York, where it was meant to be
• 1:38
  S5: taking place next year and also more broadly in the
• 1:42
  S5: global fashion community?
• 1:44
  S6: The way the met is framing it is that John
• 1:46
  S6: Galliano decided not to go forward with it, saying that
• 1:50
  S6: he didn't want his past, you know, really, his anti-Semitic
• 1:55
  S6: tirades and racist tirades that got him convicted of a
• 1:59
  S6: hate crime in France more than a decade ago, that
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  S6: he didn't want his past to be a distraction for
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  S6: the Costume Institute or the Metropolitan Museum of Art. That
• 2:09
  S6: is how it's being positioned.
• 2:12
  S7: It's fashion's biggest night the Met Gala, the Splashiest flashiest,
• 2:16
  S7: most exclusive party of the season.
• 2:19
  S8: Night in fashion is here it is the Met Gala.
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  S8: The top names in music, entertainment, sports and beyond, all
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  S8: descending on the iconic steps of the Metropolitan Museum of
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  S8: Art in New York City.
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  S6: But who knows really what went down. Because over the weekend,
• 2:36
  S6: on Friday, actually, The New York Times published a story
• 2:39
  S6: about all of the backlash growing against the exhibition. They
• 2:44
  S6: spoke to donors and Jewish leaders who were deeply, deeply
• 2:48
  S6: against it, which I think really reflected the public sentiment,
• 2:52
  S6: which I think is different from the fashion world sentiment.
• 2:56
  S6: I think a lot of people in the fashion world
• 2:57
  S6: were okay with this happening. Anna Wintour is thought to
• 3:02
  S6: have kind of muscled it through. She's wanted this for years. Uh,
• 3:07
  S6: and she seemed to have gotten her way. So I
• 3:09
  S6: think it's a really, really big deal. And I'm frankly surprised, actually,
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  S6: that the met canceled it this quickly.
• 3:16
  S5: Okay. Well, there's a lot to unpack there. Just firstly,
• 3:19
  S5: can you just remind listeners of what John Galliano actually did?
• 3:22
  S5: It's about 15 years ago now, 15 or 16 years ago,
• 3:25
  S5: because you have called Galliano previously, quote, the industry's most
• 3:28
  S5: famous anti-Semite, not without good reason. So just briefly remind
• 3:32
  S5: us what it was that he said and did and
• 3:35
  S5: what it says about the fashion industry. I guess that
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  S5: he was chosen then for this in the first place.
• 3:40
  S5: But first, what did he do all those years ago?
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  S6: Yeah, there were two incidents, one of which was filmed
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  S6: and released by The Sun newspaper.
• 3:49
  S9: I love Hitler, people like you would be dead today.
• 3:55
  S9: Your mothers, your forefathers would be gassed.
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  S10: Oh my God. Do we have a problem with you?
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  S9: You're ugly.
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  S6: And there was another incident at a cafe in Paris
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  S6: where he was drinking, and he was saying racist and
• 4:12
  S6: anti-Semitic things to another couple. One of the people involved
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  S6: in that incident is named Philippe Virgile, and he appears
• 4:19
  S6: in the John Galliano documentary John Galliano High and Low,
• 4:24
  S6: which Anna Wintour had a hand in pulling together Conde
• 4:27
  S6: Nast as a producer on that. And she sat for
• 4:30
  S6: an interview for that. But that also seemed like a
• 4:32
  S6: way for her to kind of rehabilitate John Galliano's career
• 4:36
  S6: following these horrific incidents. Anyway, Virginie spoke to Kevin MacDonald,
• 4:41
  S6: who did that documentary, and he said he didn't think
• 4:44
  S6: John Galliano was sorry. He never apologized to him. And
• 4:48
  S6: he testified at the hate crime trial in Paris. And
• 4:52
  S6: he said at that trial that he didn't think Galliano
• 4:56
  S6: was racist. And he said in the documentary that he
• 4:59
  S6: regretted saying that basically, and that he does believe that
• 5:02
  S6: Galliano was racist because he never apologized to him.
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  S5: Wow. And so I wanted to ask you because you
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  S5: did mention a couple times there, you know, Anna Wintour,
• 5:11
  S5: famously a longtime Vogue editor in chief of American Vogue.
• 5:16
  S5: She only recently stepped down from that position. Is this
• 5:19
  S5: cancellation of John Galliano, I guess, a rebuke of her
• 5:22
  S5: in particular? She's always been her champion. And and, uh,
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  S5: it has to be said, I think that it was
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  S5: a very unusual choice to have him, because it's only,
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  S5: I think, two times before in the history of the
• 5:34
  S5: Met Gala that a living designer has been chosen to
• 5:37
  S5: be the focus of a retrospective that was Yves Saint
• 5:40
  S5: Laurent in 1983. Rei Kubo in 2017. So is this
• 5:45
  S5: something of a. Yeah, a public recognition, perhaps, that her taste.
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  S5: I don't know. Maybe it doesn't matter or it's off.
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  S6: I think she's made some extremely tone deaf moves, particularly
• 5:56
  S6: around the Met Gala. And this may be the biggest.
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  S6: And the met could not risk the donors pulling funding
• 6:05
  S6: and pulling donations. And also, I don't think it could
• 6:09
  S6: risk that round of backlash. And I don't you know,
• 6:13
  S6: I don't know at this at this time. The story
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  S6: just broke really hours ago. But you know, what was
• 6:19
  S6: Vogue hearing, aside from the stuff that we've been reading
• 6:22
  S6: in the in the press, like, were they hearing from
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  S6: celebrity publicists who are saying, we can't have our clients go,
• 6:29
  S6: you know, how do you attend the event if it
• 6:30
  S6: becomes the anti-Semitic Pro-hitler Met Gala? How do you attend
• 6:34
  S6: as a as a celebrity? What good does that do you.
• 6:38
  S6: And who would have sponsored it? It seemed like Vogue
• 6:40
  S6: was trying to get Zara to sponsor it because they
• 6:42
  S6: did a puff piece of Marta Ortega. Perez, who is
• 6:48
  S6: the chair of the Inditex, the Zara parent company's board
• 6:52
  S6: and the daughter of its billionaire founder. But yeah, I mean,
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  S6: I think there's a lot behind the scenes that, you know,
• 6:58
  S6: may may come out in the coming weeks and months.
• 7:00
  S6: But yeah, I think there are a lot of questions.
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  S6: Who is gonna who was gonna go out on a
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  S6: limb and sponsor this? Who was gonna go, who would
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  S6: have chaired it?
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  S5: Right. And can you just tell the listeners, I guess,
• 7:11
  S5: a bit about how much backlash there was? Because there
• 7:13
  S5: was certainly controversy and backlash from when it was first
• 7:16
  S5: announced in early August, but it really built up steam.
• 7:21
  S5: And in particular, over the last few days, you know,
• 7:23
  S5: politicians started weighing in. Uh, the only living child of
• 7:27
  S5: Elie Wiesel, a very famous Holocaust survivor, weighed in. Just
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  S5: tell us, I guess, a bit about how great the
• 7:33
  S5: backlash became.
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  S6: Yeah. So Julie Menin, the speaker of the city council
• 7:39
  S6: and one of the most senior Jewish officials in city government,
• 7:42
  S6: called the museum's decision to do this a serious mistake.
• 7:46
  S6: In a letter that she sent to Max Hollein, the
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  S6: Met's CEO and leader. Basically, this is according to New
• 7:52
  S6: York Times reporting. Arne Glimcher, an art world titan the times,
• 7:57
  S6: called him. He told the met in an email that
• 8:01
  S6: the Times reviewed that he and his wife were reconsidering
• 8:05
  S6: donating works from their collection to the met. Jill Kargman,
• 8:09
  S6: who was a member of friends of the Costume Institute,
• 8:13
  S6: said she would step down. Dave Ingber, senior director for
• 8:17
  S6: Jewish life and senior director of the Bronfman Center at
• 8:19
  S6: the 92nd Street Y and founding, which is a very
• 8:22
  S6: important cultural institution in New York City, not just a
• 8:25
  S6: Jewish institution, but also the founding rabbi of the synagogue. Uh,
• 8:32
  S6: he came out against it. And, you know, when they
• 8:37
  S6: announced this exhibition, Anna Wintour and the museum said, well,
• 8:43
  S6: we've we've gone and met with Jewish leaders, and they
• 8:46
  S6: forgive Galliano and they think this is okay. But, you know,
• 8:50
  S6: in the last four weeks since that was announced, many
• 8:54
  S6: more prominent Jewish people have come forward and said, we
• 8:59
  S6: don't think this is a good idea.
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  S5: What are your reflections? Like, what do you think this
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  S5: says most broadly about whether it's the political moment we're
• 9:07
  S5: in or fashion's place in the culture? You know, there
• 9:11
  S5: does seem to be, certainly with Anna Wintour alone, a
• 9:15
  S5: bit of a history of, say, overlooking people's bad behavior, uh,
• 9:19
  S5: and just, uh, looking at the glamour instead. I mean,
• 9:22
  S5: I know that you, I think, have spoken on your
• 9:24
  S5: own podcast, uh, about the decision that she made to
• 9:28
  S5: feature a hugely controversial profile of Asma al-Assad. Uh, she
• 9:33
  S5: was the first lady of the Syrian dictator. This was
• 9:37
  S5: in 2011. And, you know, the profile was titled A
• 9:40
  S5: Rose in the desert. and it portrayed the Syrian first
• 9:44
  S5: lady as glamorous, modernizing, and something of a democratic reformer.
• 9:48
  S5: Just as I believe a brutal government crackdown was beginning.
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  S5: So I guess, what are your reflections on on this,
• 9:54
  S5: that historical yeah. Overlooking of horrific behavior for for glamour.
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  S6: Yeah. The Arab Spring began, I believe, the day the
• 10:06
  S6: writer of that story left Damascus from her reporting trip.
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  S6: But yeah, I think Anna Wintour has a long history
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  S6: of just seeing the image and not be on that.
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  S6: And she's had a lot of blind spots over the years.
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  S6: I think Karl Lagerfeld, who got the 2023 Met Gala
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  S6: and was the subject of a retrospective at the Costume Institute.
• 10:31
  S6: That's another example. People were really upset that the met
• 10:35
  S6: was honoring him because he was known for making Anti-fat remarks. He.
• 10:42
  S6: He commented repeatedly in his career about basically how he
• 10:47
  S6: didn't like fat women. Um, how he didn't think they
• 10:49
  S6: were attractive. And he also denigrated sexual assault victims that
• 10:53
  S6: came out during the MeToo movement. So I think Anna
• 10:57
  S6: Winter wants to have it both ways. Uh, it wasn't
• 11:00
  S6: that long ago that The Washington Post called her an
• 11:02
  S6: unlikely activist. And I think that it's really hard to
• 11:07
  S6: say that you're an activist and promote people like this.
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  S1: After the break.
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  S6: But yes, I think the fashion industry exists in a bubble.
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  S6: It's very small, it's myopic, it's solipsistic. And I think
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  S6: it is disconnected from reality. And I think in a way,
• 11:29
  S6: it kind of has to be.
• 11:36
  S5: And so is this something of an inflection point, perhaps
• 11:39
  S5: for the fashion culture more broadly, perhaps even a pointed
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  S5: lesson that they absolutely just have to stop excusing horrific behavior.
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  S5: Because I was just looking back at when Galliano was
• 11:50
  S5: first found guilty in a French court of public insults
• 11:53
  S5: based on origin and religion, and at the time, many
• 11:57
  S5: fashion greats rushed to his defense. Giorgio Armani said he
• 12:01
  S5: felt sorry for Galliano in a pit in particular, sorry
• 12:03
  S5: that he was filmed without his permission. I mean, that
• 12:06
  S5: seems a bit galling in retrospect. And Franca Sozzani. She
• 12:09
  S5: was the editor in chief of Italian Vogue. She raised
• 12:11
  S5: questions about the video itself, wondering if behind it were, quote,
• 12:15
  S5: some parvenu of journalistic scandal who, in our opinion, were
• 12:18
  S5: waiting to have three minutes of video to sell to
• 12:21
  S5: someone for a good deal more than 30 pieces of silver.
• 12:25
  S5: So yeah, is there a feeling perhaps that fashion really
• 12:30
  S5: needs a lesson and a hard one at that?
• 12:33
  S6: Yeah. I mean, those tirades did not really happen in
• 12:37
  S6: a vacuum. Those are two that we know about. But
• 12:40
  S6: as Dana Thomas reported in her book Gods and Kings
• 12:44
  S6: about John Galliano and Alexander McQueen, he had John Galliano
• 12:50
  S6: had a history of being a bully, kind of within
• 12:54
  S6: the offices of Dior. And, uh, you know, I guess
• 12:58
  S6: it was like a the classic toxic boss toxic workplace story.
• 13:03
  S6: And Dior knew it and knew that it might be
• 13:06
  S6: a problem. So then these reports that surfaced and that
• 13:10
  S6: video gave Dior reason to finally part ways with him.
• 13:15
  S6: But yes, I think the fashion industry exists in a bubble.
• 13:18
  S6: It's very small, it's myopic, it's solipsistic. And I think
• 13:22
  S6: it is disconnected from reality. And I think in a
• 13:25
  S6: way it kind of has to be because how are you,
• 13:27
  S6: the industry that's selling, uh, $100,000 jacket or, you know,
• 13:34
  S6: a $200,000 bag. I think you have to be disconnected
• 13:40
  S6: from reality a bit, because it's not like these prices
• 13:43
  S6: and that clientele that they're now courting, like the billionaire clientele,
• 13:48
  S6: you know, it's not like that is available to everybody.
• 13:53
  S5: Absolutely. But do you think it does damage to, to us,
• 13:56
  S5: to individuals, to us more broadly? Um, that, that it
• 14:00
  S5: has been so out of touch, I guess, and in
• 14:02
  S5: particular in ways like this when it celebrates people who have,
• 14:06
  S5: you know, committed heinous crimes or behaved in reprehensible ways.
• 14:10
  S6: That's a really good question. I do I do think
• 14:13
  S6: so because, you know, I'm, I'm Jewish and the people
• 14:19
  S6: I love most in this world are Jewish. And I
• 14:22
  S6: didn't want to see this happen, particularly at this moment
• 14:26
  S6: in time. And, you know, I've been talking about this
• 14:30
  S6: publicly and I feel like I would state my position
• 14:33
  S6: in a pretty rational way. And the comments that that
• 14:37
  S6: you get on social media, they seem to me just
• 14:41
  S6: kind of unhinged. You know, it's like, you know, I
• 14:45
  S6: can state it just the way I stated it to you.
• 14:47
  S6: And then it's like, what is the matter with you?
• 14:50
  S6: You're terrible. He deserves this.
• 14:54
  S5: And you mentioned that that it was particularly particularly galling
• 14:57
  S5: that this would be happening now at this time. So
• 14:59
  S5: what is it about this time that you find it, uh,
• 15:02
  S5: you know, a particularly, I guess, challenging time for something
• 15:05
  S5: like this to have been celebrated.
• 15:08
  S6: Well, anti-Semitism is on the rise. Um, you know, there
• 15:11
  S6: have been so many reports about that just recently in
• 15:14
  S6: New York. I think around the time that they announced
• 15:17
  S6: this exhibition, uh, a man was stabbed, I believe it
• 15:21
  S6: was leaving a synagogue with a screwdriver. So I think
• 15:25
  S6: these incidents are really, really troubling.
• 15:29
  S5: And what do you make, though, of those who argue
• 15:33
  S5: that his cancellation is unfair? You know that they say, okay,
• 15:36
  S5: Galliano paid his due. He was in the fashion wilderness
• 15:39
  S5: for many years. He lost his incredibly influential job at Dior. Um,
• 15:44
  S5: you know, he said he underwent rehab and discussed Judaism
• 15:48
  S5: and its history with rabbis and the former head of
• 15:50
  S5: the Anti-Defamation League. Like, what do you say to those people?
• 15:52
  S5: Because there's been so many who have come out. I've
• 15:54
  S5: seen them on your Instagram stories in response. I've seen them,
• 15:58
  S5: you know, across social media who say, well, he's a
• 16:00
  S5: genius and he's paid his dues.
• 16:02
  S6: I think those people are misinformed quite often. And, you know,
• 16:06
  S6: it's hard to remember all of the things that happened
• 16:09
  S6: in 2011. And I believe the trial was 2014. You know,
• 16:13
  S6: even for me, and I was covering this stuff very
• 16:16
  S6: in a very detailed way, like minute by minute when
• 16:19
  S6: it was all breaking. So I think a lot of
• 16:21
  S6: people have forgotten, maybe a lot of people never really
• 16:24
  S6: knew how I think damaging some of his, statements were and,
• 16:31
  S6: you know, not everyone has revisited all these stories again
• 16:35
  S6: and watch the documentary recently. Like, not everyone has that
• 16:38
  S6: knowledge at hand. And I think that if you're seeing
• 16:42
  S6: like the fashion world narrative where, you know, people say, oh,
• 16:46
  S6: he's paid his dues and like, this isn't fair. Like
• 16:48
  S6: I can understand like why you might come around to
• 16:51
  S6: that perspective. I also think he wasn't canceled. He wasn't canceled.
• 16:55
  S6: I mean, he left Dior. He went to treatment. He
• 17:00
  S6: did the trial. Uh, he paid a fine. He did
• 17:05
  S6: all of that. And then right away, you know, Anna
• 17:08
  S6: gets him a position. I forget the exact title, but
• 17:11
  S6: he worked at Oscar de la Renta for a period
• 17:14
  S6: of time. Then she gets him this job running Margiela.
• 17:18
  S6: And he did that for ten years, and he did
• 17:20
  S6: it to critical acclaim. And then he got a Zara deal.
• 17:23
  S6: So he has a Zara collaboration coming out in September,
• 17:27
  S6: So I don't think he ever really was put out
• 17:30
  S6: to pasture or canceled. You know, I think if you
• 17:33
  S6: think he's a genius designer, that's fine, but I don't
• 17:36
  S6: think that anybody is owed this honor. I think he's
• 17:40
  S6: still really beloved. But I also think like, you know, like,
• 17:46
  S6: who did it really benefit at the end of the
• 17:48
  S6: day to do this exhibition? And I think you could argue,
• 17:50
  S6: and I wrote this in my background newsletter, that this
• 17:52
  S6: wasn't even good for John Galliano, because if you care
• 17:55
  S6: about him, all this does is invite a relitigation of
• 17:58
  S6: his behavior and also for people to sniff around to
• 18:01
  S6: see what he's been doing in the last 12 years,
• 18:05
  S6: because there was a story that came out about a
• 18:08
  S6: month ago from fashion publicist Lauren London, who shared on
• 18:12
  S6: social media that she had witnessed Galliano in another anti-Semitic
• 18:16
  S6: incident in 2019.
• 18:19
  S5: Wow. And Amy, just to wrap up, you know, for
• 18:21
  S5: those listeners who, um, aren't avid fashion watchers, you know.
• 18:26
  S5: Why does this matter? The fact that he was chosen
• 18:28
  S5: for it in the first place, and the fact that
• 18:30
  S5: it's now been cancelled, why does it matter? More broadly,
• 18:33
  S5: I guess.
• 18:34
  S6: You know, I think people have been interested to see
• 18:38
  S6: who can bounce back from scandal and why and where
• 18:41
  S6: are the guardrails in our society surrounding scandal and morality.
• 18:46
  S6: Because I think this was a question of morality. And, uh,
• 18:51
  S6: I think that, you know, surprisingly, I'm surprised that this
• 18:56
  S6: was canceled 12 hours ago. But, um, surprisingly, we, we
• 19:01
  S6: kind of have a guardrail in place, at least in this,
• 19:04
  S6: in this instance, which is probably small in, in this
• 19:07
  S6: great big wide world of many scandals and many extremely
• 19:11
  S6: problematic people.
• 19:12
  S5: And perhaps it's something of a new guardrail. I mean,
• 19:14
  S5: it seems like this is a putting a foot down
• 19:17
  S5: moment against behavior that perhaps was more accepted in the past.
• 19:20
  S6: I don't think anti-Semitism, I want to say I don't
• 19:24
  S6: think anti-Semitism has been accepted. Uh, maybe in some parts
• 19:28
  S6: of society it has been accepted. But I think that
• 19:31
  S6: you need to yes, you need to draw a line
• 19:33
  S6: in the sand. If we can't draw a line around
• 19:34
  S6: someone who says, I love Hitler, your forefathers would be
• 19:38
  S6: gassed and dead, you know, in a celebratory way. Like,
• 19:41
  S6: what are we doing? I think this is an example
• 19:43
  S6: of an institution taking a stand against a powerful person,
• 19:47
  S6: and that person being Anna Wintour, who is understood to
• 19:50
  S6: have pushed this through because she wanted it, because she
• 19:53
  S6: likes his designs. And, um, I think that's a very
• 19:57
  S6: big deal. And she's been very influential at that institution
• 20:01
  S6: and in the fashion industry for a long time. And
• 20:03
  S6: I think the fact that the met said no to
• 20:06
  S6: one of their biggest and most famous fundraisers is a
• 20:09
  S6: really big deal. So I think it I think it
• 20:12
  S6: shows you that like an institution can say no to
• 20:15
  S6: a powerful person. It can happen.
• 20:18
  S5: Is this the beginning of the end of perhaps a
• 20:19
  S5: slide into irrelevance for Anna Wintour if it hasn't already begun?
• 20:23
  S6: I think so. I think this is it. It was
• 20:26
  S6: just such a tone deaf move to try to push
• 20:30
  S6: this through. I don't think anyone would have had an issue.
• 20:34
  S6: You know, if she wants to say I think he's
• 20:36
  S6: one of the greatest designers, he's made some mistakes. If
• 20:39
  S6: you just want that to be your line. But to
• 20:41
  S6: elevate him to getting his industry's highest honor, um, you know,
• 20:48
  S6: I think that was very, very out of touch.
• 20:51
  S5: Well, thank you so much, Amy, for your time.
• 20:54
  S6: Thank you for having me.
• 21:02
  S1: In other news today, Star Entertainment chief executive Bruce Mathieson
• 21:06
  S1: Jr has blamed previous management for the struggling casino giant's
• 21:10
  S1: compliance problems, promising he will deliver a clean slate and
• 21:14
  S1: cultural overhaul for the long suffering business. Foreign Minister Penny
• 21:19
  S1: Wong has said she is realistic about the challenges of
• 21:22
  S1: establishing the status of around 40 Australians missing in flash
• 21:27
  S1: flooding along the Tibet border and Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane
• 21:31
  S1: have all experienced a record warm 2026 winter higher than usual.
• 21:36
  S1: Temperatures are set to continue for the East Coast, with
• 21:39
  S1: Weatherzone predicting the warmest start to spring in more than
• 21:42
  S1: 50 years. You can read more at the age.com.au or smh.com.au.
• 21:52
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
• 21:56
  S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa
• 21:59
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